point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2757 times:
As deregulation and open-skies treaties evolve, and consolidations of air carriers take place, there are a lot of smaller airports with that lose carriers, and find little or no service, and even some mid-size airports become limited with competition.
However, on the opposite end, there are airport-pairs that get an over-abundance of carriers between them, or what could be seen as a “clusterfunk” of airlines serving that airport-pair.
Let’s define this “clusterfunk” as an airport-pair with four or more carriers that fly nonstop between them. And these carriers must use their own metal or that of a regional partner, and not be the code-share of another airline. Also, pax must be able to book these flights between the two, and be able to board and depart on on each end, so some of these “tag-on” routes don’t count here.
Here in the U.S., it seems that LAX is the biggest of these airport-pairs that have 4 or more carriers on the route in the U.S.
I wanted to limit this to domestic U.S. routes. However, some international routes came into play as well. The route with the highest number of airlines serving it that I found was LAX-NRT, with 7 carriers on this route - AA, DL, JL, NH, KE, SQ and UA. In the U.S. domestic market for LAX, there are 5 airport-pairs with 5 carriers on them – SFO, SJO, PHX, LAS, and JFK, and in the international market, 1 route with 5 carriers - LHR. LAX also has 9 domestic routes here with 4 carriers, in addition to 2 international routes.
So after LAX, it seems that DEN has a 9 (soon to be 10) airports where there are 4 airlines competing. And after that, SFO has a bit of clusterfunk, and after that it really tapers down to little more here in the U.S.
Internationally, I found an odd route of MAN-TFS with what I believe to be 7 carriers – FR, LS, TCX, TO, TOM, U2 and ZB.
Breakdown of carriers on (U.S) airport-pairs:
Between LAX and ….
NRT (1 route with 7 carriers),
SFO, SJC, LAS, PHX, JFK, LHR, (6 routes with 5 carriers)
HNL, SEA, SMF, SLC, DEN, ORD, FLL, MCO, BOS, MEX, SYD, (11 routes with 4 carriers)
Between DEN and ….
SEA, LAX, PHX, SLC, MSP, DTW, ATL, PHL, BOS, and soon LGA (10 routes with 4 carriers)
Between SFO and ….
JFK LAX (2 routes with 5 carriers)
ORD (1 route with 4 carriers)
Others in the U.S.…
LGA-ORD and ORD-BOS with AA, DL, NK and UA
I think that these are all pretty current and correct. Any other routes, domestic U.S., or internationally, where 4 or more carriers compete on an airport-pair, and fit the definition here of “Clusterfunk”?
Avianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5643 posts, RR: 47 Reply 6, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2416 times:
Quoting point2point (Thread starter): Internationally, I found an odd route of MAN-TFS with what I believe to be 7 carriers – FR, LS, TCX, TO, TOM, U2 and ZB.
well not really odd, a mass of tourists from MAN are going to Canary Islands...
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 18460 posts, RR: 17 Reply 9, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2323 times:
Ironically, one of the smallest cities in Canada, Yellowknife (YZF), population about 20,000, capital of the Northwest Territories, has daily jet service from Edmonton (YEG) by 4 scheduled carriers (Air Canada Jazz, WestJet, Canadian North, First Air).
I don't think any other route in Canada, even between major cities with populations over 1 million, has 4 scheduled carriers. Many other very small points in Canada's north, often with populations of only a few hundred, have 2 scheduled carriers, while quite a few much larger markets in southern Canada are served by only one carrier.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2378 posts, RR: 29 Reply 11, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2279 times:
Quoting point2point (Thread starter): Here in the U.S., it seems that LAX is the biggest of these airport-pairs that have 4 or more carriers on the route in the U.S.
It's great to have so much competition at LAX. Airfares from here are never too expensive! Even my relatively recent trips to small airports like MSN and NAS were about $200 and $300 r/t, respectively. Services at BUR, LGB, SNA, and ONT compete for pax and also help keep the fares very low.
Quoting point2point (Thread starter): The route with the highest number of airlines serving it that I found was LAX-NRT, with 7 carriers on this route - AA, DL, JL, NH, KE, SQ and UA.
It could soon be 8, as MH apparently plans to ditch its TPE stopover on the KUL-LAX routing for NRT. Also, we can't forget that NH and DL both serve Tokyo's HND airport too.
Several of these routes also see nonstop B6 service from the LGB airport, which is only about 20 miles down the freeway from LAX. Since we live in an era where we can "search nearby airports" when booking flights, I figure that was worth a mention!
B6 adds new competition to SFO and LAS (the 6th carrier), SEA, SMF, SLC, ORD, and BOS (the 5th carrier), and it would be the 4th carrier with nonstop service to AUS and IAD. All from LGB, of course.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2279 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 6): well not really odd, a mass of tourists from MAN are going to Canary Islands...
Not so much odd in the sense that there isn't traffic, but in the sense that you would think that a couple of airlines would have the market here, or maybe even 3 or 4..... but 7? At any rate, I think that some of these carriers are not in the best of financial shape, so some thinning may happen here.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 8): Here are some examples of certain domestic routes in South America with four carriers:
In Ecuador, the UIO-GYE route is operated by four carriers: LAN Ecuador, Aerogal, TAME, and VIP Ecuador.
In Perú, both the LIM-AQP and LIM-CUZ routes are operated by four carriers: LAN Perú, Peruvian Airlines, Star Perú, and TACA Perú.
Thanks for this. It also appears that there are a few "tag-ons" here on these as well.
YYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 765 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2233 times:
There was a time when YYZ had a bunch of these routes, YYZ-YUL, YYZ-YOW, YYZ-YHZ, etc...
In the 90's, there was a period with AC, Canadian, Westjet and Royal. Then when AC and Cdn merged, Canada 3000 jumped in to take their place... and then merged with Royal and promptly went under. Then, for a few years it was AC, Westjet, Jetsgo and Canjet. before Jetsgo went under (AC too, but it emerged) and Canjet was driven out of scheudled ops.
These days, we have 3 (if you include Porter, which does compete on the Toronto-Montreal/Ottawa routes). Mr. Leblanc, are you out there? Maybe a new airline? To go toe-to toe with AC on its Rapidair routes, that would be a great idea...
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 7141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 16, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2156 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 12): Thanks for this. It also appears that there are a few "tag-ons" here on these as well.
The majority of these flights are terminators, but some flights do continue onwards to other domestic destinations, i.e. UIO-GYE-GPS, UIO-GYE-SCY, LIM-CUZ-AQP, LIM-CUZ-JUL, LIM-CUZ-PEM, etc.
The SCL-EZE route is a good example of a route mixed with "tag-ons" and dedicated non-stops with 5 different carriers. For example, Sky Airline, AR, and LAN operate the SCL-EZE route as dedicated non-stop services. Even though LAN will soon operate SCL-EZE 53x weekly, one daily flight is a "tag-on" service. AC and GOL also operate daily "tag-ons" between SCL and EZE.
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 7141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1983 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 17): interesting that years ago we had much more carrier offering the tag-ons, some that I can remember ar LH, AV, AF who elese?
AeroPerú, BA, Braniff, Ladeco, Mexicana, Pan Am, Panair do Brasil, SAS, Varig, etc. Plus U.S. carriers such as American, Eastern, United, etc.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1904 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1877 times:
As someone said SLC-LA really has 5 carriers when you count in jetblue to Long Beach which is in LA county. They run 3xA320s so they are flying alot of people on this competitive route too.
DEN-LA was scheduled and loaded for sale to be 5 but Delta cancelled DEN-LAX very recently before any flights.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1808 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 15): In my part of the world AKL-SYD is currently served by at least 7 carriers NZ DJ QF JQ AR EK and LA
That's a busy one. And they don't have to be dailies. Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three? I also notice a lot of carriers SYD-MEL, but not sure of how many permit local pax?
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 19): DEN-LA was scheduled and loaded for sale to be 5 but Delta cancelled DEN-LAX very recently before any flights.
I also remember that DL was the 5th airline here, but then cancelled, and then recently DL announced 4 RJs n/s to do this route, and then even more recently, cancelled them all. One would think that DL could keep this route with at least one or two flights, for the reasons of providing ST flight here, and also for possible connects via LAX?
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 7141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1762 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 20): Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three?
Yes, LAN operates daily between AKL and SYD and has Fifth Freedom Rights between AKL and SYD.
The GRU-EZE route is currently served by 6 carriers: AR, GOL, LAN, TAM, TAM Paraguay and QR. PZ and QR both have Fifth Freedom Rights on the GRU-EZE route.
UALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 507 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1681 times:
I can't remember: did AA and B6 ever concurrently operate DCA-BOS for a short while before AA quit the route? If so, there would have been 4 carriers on that route (along with DL and US).
What a great thread!
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8308 posts, RR: 17 Reply 23, posted (3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1637 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 20): That's a busy one. And they don't have to be dailies. Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three?
Yes, they all have local traffic rights, and, since most carriers in this market abolished round trip pricing years ago ( you simply combine two one way fares to make a 'return') , you can fly one carrier in one direction and a different carrier in the other direction without it costing you an arm and a leg thus making the route a spotter's delight
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Thanks, I thought that it might be fun to measure competition in this way.
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 11): It's great to have so much competition at LAX. Airfares from here are never too expensive!
I think that LAX wins hands down here for the most competitive airport, probably in the world. DEN probably is a distant second, as for the rest.....?
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 23): Quoting point2point (Reply 20):
That's a busy one. And they don't have to be dailies. Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three?
Yes, they all have local traffic rights, and, since most carriers in this market abolished round trip pricing years ago
Quoting point2point (Reply 20): I also notice a lot of carriers SYD-MEL, but not sure of how many permit local pax?
So here on SYD-MEL, I think that we have DJ, JQ MK, NF, PR, QF, TT, UA for a total of 8 on this route, which makes it the most at this time - that is if all of the carriers are permitted local traffic. But soon, I think LAX will be there as well.....
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 11): Quoting point2point (Thread starter):
The route with the highest number of airlines serving it that I found was LAX-NRT, with 7 carriers on this route - AA, DL, JL, NH, KE, SQ and UA.
It could soon be 8, as MH apparently plans to ditch its TPE stopover on the KUL-LAX routing for NRT.
[Edited 2012-01-24 21:11:57]
25 GSPflyer: From the East coast (Lack of TATL from the east so far in this discussion) 5 Carriers: JFK-LHR (AA, BA, DL, KU, VS) 4 Carriers: ORD-LHR (AA, BA, UA, V
26 BeechToBus: DEN-BOS only has 3, UA, B6, and WN. F9 hasn't flown the route since '03 or so
27 flySFO: I wish SJC had 5 carriers to LAX! Would give me another airline to fly home from school on. Sadly its only AA, UA, WN, and QX
28 point2point: F9 is currently flying a once weekly n/s roundtrip between DEN-BOS to re-position its metal for the BOS-PUJ flight that it does for Apple Vacations.
29 kiwiandrew: I don't think any of the non Aussie-based carriers are allowed to carry local traffic. Since it is a domestic route it would be cabotage. So that rea
30 USAirALB: CLT-NYC. AA(LGA), US(LGA), DL(LGA), DL(JFK), B6(JFK), US(JFK), CO(EWR), US(EWR) I don't know if that really counts because it's to seperate airports,
31 roberts87: From the top of my mind, AMS has two routes that are served by 4 airlines: - BCN (VY, HV, U2, KL) - MAD (UX, U2, KL, IB) Untill this summer CPH was on
32 Akiestar: There are quite a few examples of this from the Philippines: MNL-ICN: seven carriers (PR, 5J, 2P, Z2, KE, OZ, 7C) MNL-SIN: six carriers (PR, 5J, 2P, S
36 Initious: BKK-HKG has 11 carrriers - CX, EK, ET, HX, KQ, OX, PK, RJ, UL, FD, TG SIN-HKG has 5 carriers - CX, HX, 3K, SQ, TR, UA SIN-BKK has 7 carriers - CX, 3K
37 Viscount724: In 1983 there were 13 carriers operating HKG-NRT with local traffic rights. "Only" 6 now.
38 Yflyer: I imagine this is true for lots of large to medium sized cities in the eastern US. NYC-RDU also has 5 airlines: AA (LGA and JFK), DL (LGA and JFK), U
39 aerorobnz: Trans Tasman in general is packed. AKL-BNE has 5 NZ/QF/VA/EK/CI and AKL-MEL 4 NZ/QF/EK/JQ. OOL has NZ/VA/JQ
40 Birdwatching: Frankfurt-Madrid: Lufthansa, Iberia, Spanair, LAN Chile. Soren
42 EuroWings: I like that you picked up on MAN - TFS. Well, it's quite simple really; firstly it's a massive route for tourists and secondly three of the carriers
43 point2point: It seems that a number of Asian airports are getting up to the levels of competition as well. Maybe at some point, as the Asian markets are growing, a
44 aerorobnz: only 3 now. Spanair being dead and all :-P
45 MH017: BKK-SGN v.v. come to mind: FD VN TK TG LH QR
46 SomedayTrijet: In China,it seems like almost every major domestic route has atleast four carriers; some examples: PEK-SHA v.v - 5 Carriers China Eastern Air China Ha
47 flymia: From MIA LHR: AA BA VS DL HAV has a bunch of airlines flying charters. But that would be all for 4 airlines. There are a few with three. EZE with AA,
48 HOONS90: Other than ICN-MNL that was already mentioned above by Akiestar, ICN-BKK (11 airlines): KE, OZ, LJ (Jin Air), ZE (Eastar Jet), 7C (Jeju Air), TWB (T'w
49 MH017: SIN-SGN v.v. is not bad either with 5 airlines: Lionair with 739 Singapore Airlines with 772 Vietnam Airlines with 321 Tiger with 320 Jetstar with 320
50 lightsaber: Whenever I read about that level of competition, I shake my head. But not in comparison to: Thirteen! But that was also back when NRT was extremely c
51 sq_ek_freak: Back in the day there were a ton of airlines operating 5th freedom flights between MNL and HKG right? On top of CX and PR, I can think of AF, SR, BA,
52 Viscount724: Many of the 5th freedom carriers only operated 2 or 3 times a week. Apart from JL and CX, Pan Am and Northwest were probably the only 5th freedom ope
53 point2point: Competition seems to form in some of the most unexpected places....... Yeah, just noticed it kinda stuck out there...... WIth all of the Asian market
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