point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2757 times:
As deregulation and open-skies treaties evolve, and consolidations of air carriers take place, there are a lot of smaller airports with that lose carriers, and find little or no service, and even some mid-size airports become limited with competition.
However, on the opposite end, there are airport-pairs that get an over-abundance of carriers between them, or what could be seen as a “clusterfunk” of airlines serving that airport-pair.
Let’s define this “clusterfunk” as an airport-pair with four or more carriers that fly nonstop between them. And these carriers must use their own metal or that of a regional partner, and not be the code-share of another airline. Also, pax must be able to book these flights between the two, and be able to board and depart on on each end, so some of these “tag-on” routes don’t count here.
Here in the U.S., it seems that LAX is the biggest of these airport-pairs that have 4 or more carriers on the route in the U.S.
I wanted to limit this to domestic U.S. routes. However, some international routes came into play as well. The route with the highest number of airlines serving it that I found was LAX-NRT, with 7 carriers on this route - AA, DL, JL, NH, KE, SQ and UA. In the U.S. domestic market for LAX, there are 5 airport-pairs with 5 carriers on them – SFO, SJO, PHX, LAS, and JFK, and in the international market, 1 route with 5 carriers - LHR. LAX also has 9 domestic routes here with 4 carriers, in addition to 2 international routes.
So after LAX, it seems that DEN has a 9 (soon to be 10) airports where there are 4 airlines competing. And after that, SFO has a bit of clusterfunk, and after that it really tapers down to little more here in the U.S.
Internationally, I found an odd route of MAN-TFS with what I believe to be 7 carriers – FR, LS, TCX, TO, TOM, U2 and ZB.
Breakdown of carriers on (U.S) airport-pairs:
Between LAX and ….
NRT (1 route with 7 carriers),
SFO, SJC, LAS, PHX, JFK, LHR, (6 routes with 5 carriers)
HNL, SEA, SMF, SLC, DEN, ORD, FLL, MCO, BOS, MEX, SYD, (11 routes with 4 carriers)
Between DEN and ….
SEA, LAX, PHX, SLC, MSP, DTW, ATL, PHL, BOS, and soon LGA (10 routes with 4 carriers)
Between SFO and ….
JFK LAX (2 routes with 5 carriers)
ORD (1 route with 4 carriers)
Others in the U.S.…
LGA-ORD and ORD-BOS with AA, DL, NK and UA
I think that these are all pretty current and correct. Any other routes, domestic U.S., or internationally, where 4 or more carriers compete on an airport-pair, and fit the definition here of “Clusterfunk”?
Avianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5643 posts, RR: 47 Reply 6, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2416 times:
Quoting point2point (Thread starter): Internationally, I found an odd route of MAN-TFS with what I believe to be 7 carriers – FR, LS, TCX, TO, TOM, U2 and ZB.
well not really odd, a mass of tourists from MAN are going to Canary Islands...
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 18460 posts, RR: 17 Reply 9, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2323 times:
Ironically, one of the smallest cities in Canada, Yellowknife (YZF), population about 20,000, capital of the Northwest Territories, has daily jet service from Edmonton (YEG) by 4 scheduled carriers (Air Canada Jazz, WestJet, Canadian North, First Air).
I don't think any other route in Canada, even between major cities with populations over 1 million, has 4 scheduled carriers. Many other very small points in Canada's north, often with populations of only a few hundred, have 2 scheduled carriers, while quite a few much larger markets in southern Canada are served by only one carrier.
SurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2378 posts, RR: 29 Reply 11, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2279 times:
Quoting point2point (Thread starter): Here in the U.S., it seems that LAX is the biggest of these airport-pairs that have 4 or more carriers on the route in the U.S.
It's great to have so much competition at LAX. Airfares from here are never too expensive! Even my relatively recent trips to small airports like MSN and NAS were about $200 and $300 r/t, respectively. Services at BUR, LGB, SNA, and ONT compete for pax and also help keep the fares very low.
Quoting point2point (Thread starter): The route with the highest number of airlines serving it that I found was LAX-NRT, with 7 carriers on this route - AA, DL, JL, NH, KE, SQ and UA.
It could soon be 8, as MH apparently plans to ditch its TPE stopover on the KUL-LAX routing for NRT. Also, we can't forget that NH and DL both serve Tokyo's HND airport too.
Several of these routes also see nonstop B6 service from the LGB airport, which is only about 20 miles down the freeway from LAX. Since we live in an era where we can "search nearby airports" when booking flights, I figure that was worth a mention!
B6 adds new competition to SFO and LAS (the 6th carrier), SEA, SMF, SLC, ORD, and BOS (the 5th carrier), and it would be the 4th carrier with nonstop service to AUS and IAD. All from LGB, of course.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2279 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 6): well not really odd, a mass of tourists from MAN are going to Canary Islands...
Not so much odd in the sense that there isn't traffic, but in the sense that you would think that a couple of airlines would have the market here, or maybe even 3 or 4..... but 7? At any rate, I think that some of these carriers are not in the best of financial shape, so some thinning may happen here.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 8): Here are some examples of certain domestic routes in South America with four carriers:
In Ecuador, the UIO-GYE route is operated by four carriers: LAN Ecuador, Aerogal, TAME, and VIP Ecuador.
In Perú, both the LIM-AQP and LIM-CUZ routes are operated by four carriers: LAN Perú, Peruvian Airlines, Star Perú, and TACA Perú.
Thanks for this. It also appears that there are a few "tag-ons" here on these as well.
YYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 765 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2233 times:
There was a time when YYZ had a bunch of these routes, YYZ-YUL, YYZ-YOW, YYZ-YHZ, etc...
In the 90's, there was a period with AC, Canadian, Westjet and Royal. Then when AC and Cdn merged, Canada 3000 jumped in to take their place... and then merged with Royal and promptly went under. Then, for a few years it was AC, Westjet, Jetsgo and Canjet. before Jetsgo went under (AC too, but it emerged) and Canjet was driven out of scheudled ops.
These days, we have 3 (if you include Porter, which does compete on the Toronto-Montreal/Ottawa routes). Mr. Leblanc, are you out there? Maybe a new airline? To go toe-to toe with AC on its Rapidair routes, that would be a great idea...
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 7141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 16, posted (3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2156 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 12): Thanks for this. It also appears that there are a few "tag-ons" here on these as well.
The majority of these flights are terminators, but some flights do continue onwards to other domestic destinations, i.e. UIO-GYE-GPS, UIO-GYE-SCY, LIM-CUZ-AQP, LIM-CUZ-JUL, LIM-CUZ-PEM, etc.
The SCL-EZE route is a good example of a route mixed with "tag-ons" and dedicated non-stops with 5 different carriers. For example, Sky Airline, AR, and LAN operate the SCL-EZE route as dedicated non-stop services. Even though LAN will soon operate SCL-EZE 53x weekly, one daily flight is a "tag-on" service. AC and GOL also operate daily "tag-ons" between SCL and EZE.
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 7141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1983 times:
Quoting Avianca (Reply 17): interesting that years ago we had much more carrier offering the tag-ons, some that I can remember ar LH, AV, AF who elese?
AeroPerú, BA, Braniff, Ladeco, Mexicana, Pan Am, Panair do Brasil, SAS, Varig, etc. Plus U.S. carriers such as American, Eastern, United, etc.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1904 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1877 times:
As someone said SLC-LA really has 5 carriers when you count in jetblue to Long Beach which is in LA county. They run 3xA320s so they are flying alot of people on this competitive route too.
DEN-LA was scheduled and loaded for sale to be 5 but Delta cancelled DEN-LAX very recently before any flights.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1808 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 15): In my part of the world AKL-SYD is currently served by at least 7 carriers NZ DJ QF JQ AR EK and LA
That's a busy one. And they don't have to be dailies. Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three? I also notice a lot of carriers SYD-MEL, but not sure of how many permit local pax?
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 19): DEN-LA was scheduled and loaded for sale to be 5 but Delta cancelled DEN-LAX very recently before any flights.
I also remember that DL was the 5th airline here, but then cancelled, and then recently DL announced 4 RJs n/s to do this route, and then even more recently, cancelled them all. One would think that DL could keep this route with at least one or two flights, for the reasons of providing ST flight here, and also for possible connects via LAX?
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 7141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 21, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1762 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 20): Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three?
Yes, LAN operates daily between AKL and SYD and has Fifth Freedom Rights between AKL and SYD.
The GRU-EZE route is currently served by 6 carriers: AR, GOL, LAN, TAM, TAM Paraguay and QR. PZ and QR both have Fifth Freedom Rights on the GRU-EZE route.
UALFAson From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 507 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1681 times:
I can't remember: did AA and B6 ever concurrently operate DCA-BOS for a short while before AA quit the route? If so, there would have been 4 carriers on that route (along with DL and US).
What a great thread!
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8308 posts, RR: 17 Reply 23, posted (3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1637 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 20): That's a busy one. And they don't have to be dailies. Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three?
Yes, they all have local traffic rights, and, since most carriers in this market abolished round trip pricing years ago ( you simply combine two one way fares to make a 'return') , you can fly one carrier in one direction and a different carrier in the other direction without it costing you an arm and a leg thus making the route a spotter's delight
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Thanks, I thought that it might be fun to measure competition in this way.
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 11): It's great to have so much competition at LAX. Airfares from here are never too expensive!
I think that LAX wins hands down here for the most competitive airport, probably in the world. DEN probably is a distant second, as for the rest.....?
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 23): Quoting point2point (Reply 20):
That's a busy one. And they don't have to be dailies. Are local pax permitted here with AR, EK, and LA? Or in other words, could one book a roundtrip AKL-SYD on any of these last three?
Yes, they all have local traffic rights, and, since most carriers in this market abolished round trip pricing years ago
Quoting point2point (Reply 20): I also notice a lot of carriers SYD-MEL, but not sure of how many permit local pax?
So here on SYD-MEL, I think that we have DJ, JQ MK, NF, PR, QF, TT, UA for a total of 8 on this route, which makes it the most at this time - that is if all of the carriers are permitted local traffic. But soon, I think LAX will be there as well.....
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 11): Quoting point2point (Thread starter):
The route with the highest number of airlines serving it that I found was LAX-NRT, with 7 carriers on this route - AA, DL, JL, NH, KE, SQ and UA.
It could soon be 8, as MH apparently plans to ditch its TPE stopover on the KUL-LAX routing for NRT.
Since the goal here is to measure the competitive-ness of an airport, I thought listing the number of carriers (in this case 4 or more) that compete on what number of routes from that airport would give us a good idea. I also realize that anti-trusts permit airlines to split $$$ on certain routes, so the question becomes, for example, are AA and BA really competitive on JFK-LHR? I think that even though both airlines have immunity from coordinating schedules and prices, ultimately each still has their concerns, so in a sense there is competition. I admit that I could be wrong in looking at this in this manner, but yet, it isn't single ownership. When it's single ownership with two brands (AF/KL, BA/IB) then I don't think it's competition if, for example, both BA and IB fly between LHR and MAD.
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8308 posts, RR: 17 Reply 29, posted (3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1541 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 24): So here on SYD-MEL, I think that we have DJ, JQ MK, NF, PR, QF, TT, UA for a total of 8 on this route, which makes it the most at this time - that is if all of the carriers are permitted local traffic.
I don't think any of the non Aussie-based carriers are allowed to carry local traffic. Since it is a domestic route it would be cabotage. So that really only leaves QF JQ DJ and TT ( still pretty good though)
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Akiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 32, posted (3 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1309 times:
There are quite a few examples of this from the Philippines:
MNL-ICN: seven carriers (PR, 5J, 2P, Z2, KE, OZ, 7C)
MNL-SIN: six carriers (PR, 5J, 2P, SQ, 3K, TR)
MNL-NRT: five carriers (PR, JL, NH, DL, JQ)
MNL-PUS: four carriers (PR, 5J, KE, OZ)
MNL-HKG: four carriers (PR, 5J, CX, KA)
MNL-TPE: four carriers (PR, 5J, CI, BR)
MNL-BKK: four carriers (PR, 5J, TG, KU)
MNL-PEK: four carriers (PR, 5J, CZ, CA)
Several major cities within the Philippines (CEB, DVO, ZAM, LAO, ILO, BCD, TAC, TAG, LGP, KLO, PPS and CGY) are also served by all four major domestic carriers (PR, 5J, 2P, Z2) from MNL. MPH also has four carriers: 2P, 5J, DG and SP (Sky Pasada).
CEB-ICN: six carriers (PR, 5J, Z2, KE, OZ, LJ)
CEB-PUS: four carriers (5J, KE, BX, 7C)
Initious From Singapore, joined Dec 2008, 926 posts, RR: 20 Reply 36, posted (3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1272 times:
Quoting point2point (Thread starter): The route with the highest number of airlines serving it that I found was LAX-NRT, with 7 carriers on this route - AA, DL, JL, NH, KE, SQ and UA.
BKK-HKG has 11 carrriers - CX, EK, ET, HX, KQ, OX, PK, RJ, UL, FD, TG
SIN-HKG has 5 carriers - CX, HX, 3K, SQ, TR, UA
SIN-BKK has 7 carriers - CX, 3K, 8M, SQ, FD, TG, TR
These are just some in Asia. There are lots more routes with more than 4 carriers, You might want to consider adjusting the number.
I imagine this is true for lots of large to medium sized cities in the eastern US. NYC-RDU also has 5 airlines:
AA (LGA and JFK), DL (LGA and JFK), US (LGA), B6 (JFK) and CO (EWR)
I believe the US service to LGA will go away once the slot swap takes effect, but that still leaves four carriers if we're considering city pairs rather than airport pairs.
aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 5818 posts, RR: 14 Reply 39, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1126 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 15): In my part of the world AKL-SYD is currently served by at least 7 carriers NZ DJ QF JQ AR EK and LA ( although not all of those are daily services).
Trans Tasman in general is packed. AKL-BNE has 5 NZ/QF/VA/EK/CI and AKL-MEL 4 NZ/QF/EK/JQ. OOL has NZ/VA/JQ
EuroWings From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 238 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1044 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 12): Not so much odd in the sense that there isn't traffic, but in the sense that you would think that a couple of airlines would have the market here, or maybe even 3 or 4..... but 7? At any rate, I think that some of these carriers are not in the best of financial shape, so some thinning may happen here.
I like that you picked up on MAN - TFS. Well, it's quite simple really; firstly it's a massive route for tourists and secondly three of the carriers on that route (TCX, TOM and MON) offer fairly infrequent charter services as they sell many of their flights as part of an inclusive package with a hotel and transfers. It's a traditional Northern European "package holiday" to Southern Europe route. In the past there were fewer carriers, but larger aircraft up to 747-200s/300s were not uncommon. It's just that in recent years that LCCs like EZY, FR and LS wanted a slice of the growing 'flight only' market.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (3 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 894 times:
It seems that a number of Asian airports are getting up to the levels of competition as well. Maybe at some point, as the Asian markets are growing, and the U.S. is a bit stagnant in comparison, HKG, BKK, and SIN will have more carriers on more routes, and thus become as competitive, if not more, than the U.S.?
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5672 posts, RR: 6 Reply 47, posted (3 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 729 times:
From MIA
LHR: AA BA VS DL
HAV has a bunch of airlines flying charters. But that would be all for 4 airlines. There are a few with three.
EZE with AA, AR and LAN
PAP with AF, AA and Insel
BOG etc..
But the only scheduled destination from MIA with four or more airlines is LHR.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 8514 posts, RR: 100 Reply 50, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 606 times:
sq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1473 posts, RR: 17 Reply 51, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 600 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37): In 1983 there were 13 carriers operating HKG-NRT with local traffic rights. "Only" 6 now.
Back in the day there were a ton of airlines operating 5th freedom flights between MNL and HKG right? On top of CX and PR, I can think of AF, SR, BA, EK, PX, AZ, PK, CP, QF and SV. That's 12 carriers on a flight that's just over 1:30 hrs! Oh and as far as I know, all of those were on large wide bodies, mostly 747s save for SR (MD-11) and PX and EK (A310).
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 18460 posts, RR: 17 Reply 52, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 578 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 50): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
In 1983 there were 13 carriers operating HKG-NRT with local traffic rights. "Only" 6 now.
Thirteen! But that was also back when NRT was extremely capacity constrained, so yields must have been far better than today.
Many of the 5th freedom carriers only operated 2 or 3 times a week. Apart from JL and CX, Pan Am and Northwest were probably the only 5th freedom operators with daily service (one flight each).
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, RR: 0 Reply 53, posted (3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 576 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9): Ironically, one of the smallest cities in Canada, Yellowknife (YZF), population about 20,000, capital of the Northwest Territories, has daily jet service from Edmonton (YEG) by 4 scheduled carriers (Air Canada Jazz, WestJet, Canadian North, First Air).
Competition seems to form in some of the most unexpected places.......
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 50): Quoting point2point (Reply 24):
I think that LAX wins hands down here for the most competitive airport, probably in the world.
But not in comparison to:
WIth all of the Asian markets reporting in here, I'm probably going to have to do some re-assessment eh......?
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From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1372 posts, 
Yep... sorry, got wrong carrier here
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But that was also back when NRT was extremely capacity constrained, so yields must have been far better than today.
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