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The Best 744 Engines  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20358 posts, RR: 59
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 12243 times:

So the 744 is now a mature model with well-established characteristics and a long operational history.

RR only won four orders, but they happened to be large orders from BA, QF, CX, and NZ. PW's 4000 and GE's CF6 were the other two choices.

In the end, which engine wound up being the most cost-effective overall?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11839 times:

I bet the GE80s. For their time, the engine was quite an evolution compared to the CF6-50s. They were more fuel efficient compared to the PW4000s and also made less noise.

User currently offlineChrisba777er From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11816 times:

I'd say the GEs as well.

I've been on all three types and there is very little discernible difference in the cabin in terms of noise.

IIRC the Rolls was triple spool and had better fuel burn than the other two in cruise but being heavier was at a disadvantage in the climb.

Couldnt tell you about spool time but my reckoning is that the Pratts probably had the edge here.

Anyone know?



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineSpeedbird741 From Portugal, joined Aug 2008, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11805 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
large orders from BA, QF, CX, and NZ

South African Airways and Cargolux also placed significantly large orders for Rolls Royce powered -400s.

Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 2):
IIRC the Rolls was triple spool and had better fuel burn than the other two in cruise but being heavier was at a disadvantage in the climb.

Other way around, I believe. The RB211s have an advantage during climb.

Edit -> In fact, it's quite interesting to note that, apart from Cargolux, the airlines that ordered Rolls Royce powered -400s are based in territories that were once under British rule. I'm not attempting to imply any causality, but simply noting an interesting fact.

Speedbird741

[Edited 2012-03-15 03:20:29]


Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2038 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11708 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 3):
Edit -> In fact, it's quite interesting to note that, apart from Cargolux, the airlines that ordered Rolls Royce powered -400s are based in territories that were once under British rule. I'm not attempting to imply any causality, but simply noting an interesting fact.

Probably not a coincidence...

It's probably fair to say that the RB211-524G powered 744 was at the limit of the engine, and indeed RR did have a joint venture with GE where they manufactured CF6s and GE got to build some RB211-535s, suggesting that they didn't see any future in the engine.

Subsequently, this accord broke up, RR developed the first Trent engines and lived happily ever after!



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlineChrisba777er From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11705 times:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 3):
Quoting Chrisba777er (Reply 2):
IIRC the Rolls was triple spool and had better fuel burn than the other two in cruise but being heavier was at a disadvantage in the climb.

Other way around, I believe. The RB211s have an advantage during climb.

I knew it was one of the two - my apologies.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

Doesn't the GE CF-6 have something like 50% of the B-747 and 60% of the B-767 market?

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11545 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
RR only won four orders, but they happened to be large orders from BA, QF, CX, and NZ. PW's 4000 and GE's CF6 were the other two choices

Air New Zealand also has GE powered New 744's and Qantas has 6 744ER with GE engines, many QF 767 are also GE powered.

GE was the most widely used engine on 744's. LH, AF, KLM, Virgin Atlantic, Varig, ANA, JAL and other had GE on their 744's.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11263 times:

GE followed by PW and then RR. This will be an interesting thread as could evolve into a GE vs PW argument.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6132 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11248 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 8):
GE followed by PW and then RR. This will be an interesting thread as could evolve into a GE vs PW argument.

I have always head that the PWs were lighter and did a bit better at fuel consumption as a result.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8513 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11181 times:
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Pratts were ordered for 744 by airlines that until that point had always had P & W's on their planes, Korean Air, Singapore Airlines, NW, United & Air Canada.

User currently offlinehOMsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11145 times:

It seems that most are saying the GEs were better.

One question I've wondered is, did any US airlines (Air Force One not included) ever buy GEs for a new 747 (not just -400, but any version)?

Passenger-wise, I can't think of any. But then again, I think only Pratts were offered on the early 747s (didn't the GE/RR option only become available from the -200 onward?), and most US airlines only bought the -100, or maybe a few -200s. Only NW and UA bought the -400, and they were already established PW customers.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 10871 times:

I've heard that the most capable 744's in terms of range are the PW4056-equipped airplanes. Not sure how the GE's compare but due to their lighter weight the Pratt's have somewhat of a range advantage over RR-equipped aircraft.
From an exterior noise standpoint, they all seem about the same and are all rather noisy by today's standards. The RB211's seem to be the noisiest on approach.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20358 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10668 times:

Quoting 747fan (Reply 12):
I've heard that the most capable 744's in terms of range are the PW4056-equipped airplanes. Not sure how the GE's compare but due to their lighter weight the Pratt's have somewhat of a range advantage over RR-equipped aircraft.

That's funny. I'd been told that the 3-spool design improved the thermodynamic efficiency enough that the RR could use fewer stages and thus, was a smaller, shorter, lighter engine. It's certainly smaller.


User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 2024 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10651 times:

Quoting hOMsar (Reply 11):
One question I've wondered is, did any US airlines (Air Force One not included) ever buy GEs for a new 747 (not just -400, but any version)?

I can't think of any US airlines buying a new PAX 747 with GE engines either. Cargo-wise though we do have UPS and the GE engines on their new -400 freighters. That's the only one that comes to my mind right now though.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3778 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10591 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
Air New Zealand also has GE powered New 744's and Qantas has 6 744ER with GE engines, many QF 767 are also GE powered.

QF also had the three ex-Malaysian, non-ER 744s that were powered by GEs as well.



PHX based
User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10586 times:

RB211 no doubt about it....

I love being at the threshold and hearing that spool up o a bit if power for a few seconds, and then takeoff thrust applied. Wow that noise....


User currently offlineGCPET From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2012, 204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 16):
RB211 no doubt about it....

I love being at the threshold and hearing that spool up o a bit if power for a few seconds, and then takeoff thrust applied. Wow that noise....

It's a beautiful sound! Long live the RB211!

GCPET



If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 1):
I bet the GE80s.

Do you call it that because it's the CF6-80C2? 777 engines are called GE90s, but I've never heard of GE80s.


User currently offline747srule From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 429 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 10220 times:

No disrespect fellow A-Nutters, but any and all powerplants look excellent on the 744,because it is the best plane to EVER grace the skies!! See my user name.


Jesus is the way,the truth,and the life
User currently offlineil76 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2004, 2239 posts, RR: 48
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9650 times:

The PW's smoke A LOT more than the others. Even PWs on 777's. Why is that?

User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1359 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8257 times:

Am I correct in thinking that the Rolls Royce RB211 is the only engine for the 744 that has FADEC?

In my opinion the RB211 is best - partly because it looks so smooth, unlike the rougher looking GEs and P&Ws.

Rolls Royce RB211

GE CF6

Just my opinion. I know it has no bearing on operating costs.  
Quoting lhr380 (Reply 16):
RB211 no doubt about it....

I love being at the threshold and hearing that spool up o a bit if power for a few seconds, and then takeoff thrust applied. Wow that noise....

I couldn't agree more. It is such an powerful sound.



First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8103 times:

The RB211, no doubt about it. An engine so good it was strapped to 5 different aircraft models from 3 manufacturers. (6 if you include the 747SP)

I believe the USAF were considering retrofitting their B-52s with 4 RB211s each at one point.

[Edited 2012-03-15 17:00:04]


arpdesign.wordpress.com
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26021 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
Pratts were ordered for 744 by airlines that until that point had always had P & W's on their planes, Korean Air, Singapore Airlines, NW, United & Air Canada.



Not "always" for AC. For several years in the early 1960s (when still TCA) their entire fleet was R-R powered, including the Dart-powered Viscount, Tyne-powered Vanguard and Conway-powered DC-8-40. I recall they used to advertise their all-R-R fleet during that period. Their first P&W-powered aircraft since the DC-3 was the DC-8-54F combi in 1963.

And their Canadair DC-4M North Stars heavily used from the late 1940s until 1960 used the R-R Merlin.


User currently offlinewestern727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 753 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8016 times:

This is going to be a subjective, purely aesthetic response:

I was always fond of the JT9Ds on the classics; the rear cone made them aesthetically "cool" on the 747...followed by the CF6-50s and finally the relatively plain-looking RB211s that I think do the 747 classic no justice.

On the 744, I like the RRs with their pointed nose cones and yellow spirals. Always a joy to watch them taxi.



Jack @ AUS
25 jetmech : I think he may be using "GE80" as a shorthand for CF6-80C2. Regards, JetMech
26 dfwrevolution : The advantage of the 3-spool design is that the fan and the intermediate-pressure compressor to run at different (more optimal) speeds. All else bein
27 BoeingGuy : No, all CF6-80C2s are FADEC on the 747-400. I'd have to check on PW, but I thought all 744s are FADEC. (CF6-80C2s on the 767 can either be FADEC, or
28 Post contains images dynkrisolo : If that's your criterion, then CF6 wins hands down. I'm not sure how you counted. Here's what I have: RB211: L-1011 Early 747s (including 747SP) 767
29 RickNRoll : The RB211 has been causing Qantas some problems in recent years. The reliability is not the best.
30 Post contains images DocLightning : I actually think it looks rather anachronistic. I prefer the look of the GE/PW nacelle. Agreed! But my question was from the airline CEO's bottom lin
31 airbuske : My employer is a large operator of both PW4000 and CF6-80C2 engine types. To satisfy my own curiosity, I once looked up internal data to compare fuel
32 PM : What is interesting about the CX orders is that they came after ordering and taking delivery of GE-powered 744Fs. Between 1990 and 1997 CX ordered 3
33 Post contains links and images Speedbird741 : Presently, all three engine options have FADEC. Without question, the RB211s sound much better, look much better, and are just better than any other
34 Post contains images Speedbird741 : Interesting indeed, and the case of South African Airways and their GE/RR mix is also a curious one. I do trust that you mean CV and not CX, though S
35 hOMsar : Boeing (747, 757, 767), Lockheed (L-1011). What was the third manufacturer? Douglas/McD never used them. Can't think of any Airbuses with RB211s. Als
36 Post contains images Speedbird741 : Tupolev 204/14 Speedbird741
37 Post contains images PM : Whoops! South African chose RR for their 747-400s(*). Then, about the time they were looking for more lift, Boeing had two brand new 744s with GE lyi
38 SASMD82 : You are right, officially they are called CF6-80C2. I named them GE80 because I have always thought that the GE90s were 'nicknames' because officiall
39 garpd : With QFs recent track record of maintenance, I'd rather believe it's down to the way they are maintaining them. BA has quite a few planes with RB211s
40 Dano1977 : QF has been sourcing out maintenance to 3rd parties, at the expense (or saving if you are looking at the bottom line) of QF Australian based engineer
41 JerseyFlyer : I was in India in 1990 and recall reading of AI's 'intent" to buy RR 744s. I don't recall any explanation for the subsequent change of mind.
42 Tristarsteve : There is no FADEC on any RB211 pre Trent. All RB211 have analogue air vent driven IGV controllers. Just controls on air pressure differences. Same de
43 Post contains images BA777ER236 : Never heard of this and GE90 is not a nickname. They are officially GE90-115BL engines on the 777-300ER for example. There was a plan to mount them o
44 craigpc01 : There must be a Cathay pilot out there who can weigh in?!?! They operate all three engines on their fleet of 744s, interested to hear if there is any
45 Post contains links Viscount724 : There are no references to "CF6" in the FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the GE90. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...6257823007a1b25/$FILE/E0
46 madog : also on top of that, the RR's had an aerodynamic advantage compared to the PW's and GE's.
47 dynkrisolo : The -22 and -524 shared the genealogy, but the -535 on the 757 was a different animal. That's the same 757 engine, -535. Trent 600 Should be Trent 50
48 Stratofish : I know they have some PW powered 744s which are ex SIA planes. Where did the GE ones come from? Must have missed that. In both the sound and looks de
49 5MillionMiler : Yes I rode on those a few times out of HKG and SFO and when I saw it at the gate form front thought it was a 747-400ER because form the gate the nace
50 BoeingGuy : It's very commonly called the "GE90" at Boeing. The whole name is a mouthful.
51 Post contains images BA777ER236 : Absolutely, and at BA too. What I was saying is that I'd never heard of them described as SASMD82 has it! Cheers
52 neutronstar73 : I think this is an easy one. I think GE wins the best engine on the 744. It certainly garnered the lion's share of sales. Nice but the CF6 wins for me
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