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Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?  
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 769 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22340 times:

I've read it before and I just read it again, "[insert name] airlines is too premium of an airline for SkyTeam."

Does SkyTeam really have a reputation of being an alliance of third rate airlines? Is it considered inferior to Star Alliance and oneworld? If so, what is the judging criteria?

(maybe I've been hiding under a rock)

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7394 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22332 times:

I don't know about you, but (even though I hate DL for their customer service on non-sky miles Y domestic and for pulling out of CVG) DL is one heck of a good airline, if you ask me. I'm 2000 miles short of becoming a gold member.

I've also have had no issues when I've flown with AF or KL. All really good quality airlines with really good quality products.

Sure EK and SQ are probably the top dogs when it comes to offerings but you still can't beat the friendly smiles you get from the DL and AF attendants!



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8442 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22262 times:

Just look at the airlines who are members. They're not airlines you associate with a high quality of service and safety.

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 22230 times:

Short answer, yes. However, there are some bright spots in ST. Korean being one of them.


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 22095 times:

The core SkyTeam Airlines are fine (DL, AM, AF, KL, KE, CZ, ME, OK and even KQ) but it definitely has more questionable 2nd tier carriers than Star and Oneworld.

When you think of...

Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.




Before I get flamed, I understand Garuda and Aeroflot have improved greatly over the last few years but their poor reputation precedes them.


User currently offlineCapEd388 From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 21889 times:

I'm sorry, but how are Delta, KLM, Air France, Korean Air, AeroMexico, China Southern etc. low quality or unsafe airlines??

I know that these core members are not at the premium level of Emirates, Etihad or Singapore, but they are not exactly low quality airlines. They offer comparable and competitive service to that of the core members of the other two alliances.

I am neutral when it comes to the alliances, I think they all have their strengths and their weaknesses, but to suggest that somehow SkyTeam has all the low quality and unsafe airlines is a little unfair and misguided.



388 346 77W 787
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21788 times:

Living in AMS, SkyTeam works okay for me. Generally speaking, I can easily fly direct to those places I travel most, including long-haul destinations lik PDX, SEA, SIN, HKG, and CPT. With that said, Star Alliance clearly has better coverage to many places in Europe and especially within Asia. The core SkyTeam carriers like KL, AF, DL, and KE are fine, and AZ, OK, and KQ are reasonable enough. That said, travelling between major business markets in Asia is a challenge (I was in SIN for two months and my SkyTeam membership was basically worthless for travelling within the region unless I wanted to connect at second tier cities in China).

Lately, Skyteam is picking up a lot of carriers that add no value to the alliance. Seems that they are going to quantity over quality. The reality is that most of these carriers have a very limited number new destinations and are not known for operational excellence.

In summary, Skyteam works well for me living in AMS, but if I didn't live in a Skyteam hub I wouldn't really see the point.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7113 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21749 times:

This question again.....

Service on Vietnam airlines short haul economy is superior to anything you get on Lufthansa or British Airways and vastly superior to United. Garuda offers a better regional J class from Australia than Qantas, and China Eastern is superior to Air China. Aeroflot offers Europes best business class.

It's hardly a secret that Egyptair is rubbish. Air Europa survived, Spanair didn't. Adria is on the ropes, Tarom keeps flying, Malev is gone, Czech isn't.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 866 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 21560 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
When you think of...

Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

SV may not have the level of service of the likes of SQ but it has a good safety record and a decent product thank you very much.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1136 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21482 times:

Look. I hate sUA. I avoid them TATL at all costs. sCO I liked, but I'd rather be on LH or OS.

But because SZG is really only connected to TATL by LH or OS through FRA/VIE* I am pretty much wedded to UA when I am in the US.

I would love to try the new Delta, but I've not had an occasion to, since all my travel to the US is either coming from or going home to SZG. But if their service is really as good as it sounds like, I wish they would swap alliances with UA...


*Yes, I know that theoretically AB could connect me from SZG-DUS-MIA/JFK/LAX but when you need to go SZG-XXX-XXX-OKC, and neither AA or AB can book that online, why bother with the hassle?


User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2884 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21480 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

What do you mean "no Sky Miles in Y"? On Delta. I don't fly them often but I know that upgrades etc are very hard to get?

And is Korean as good as the ads depict? I flew them in First about 10 years ago and was so excited...then so let down by the product. Service was good.



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26906 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21419 times:

Being Gold tier with the major three I rate them as follows.

Star Alliance 1st

Oneworld 2nd

Skyteam 3rd

If I had to choose not to renew Gold status with any of the above I would drop ST without hesitation. I actually think SV and ME have been a decent addition to the alliance especially MEA which is an under estimated carrier. The only thing that holds them back is the political situation in Lebanon.

With regards Aeroflot are they still refusing AF/KL Elites into the lounges due to an argument? Not the type of crap I want to encounter on my travels that's for sure.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1355 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21409 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 8):

SV may not have the level of service of the likes of SQ but it has a good safety record and a decent product thank you very much.

I don't think so. The problem with SV is that it's a one destination airline. Add to that the destination is a place that is difficult (and just being honest, not very desirable) to get to, and it's hard to see what value SV actually adds. I know they needed ST & all, but the fact is that unless you have a very specific reason to visit the kingdom, there's really not a lot SV can do for you.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21370 times:

No more than one world is these days, and whereas Skyteam is grooming second tier and third tier careers and trying to growing them into something to back up their big guns - Oneworld is being broken up by bankruptcy and other issues like QF/EK. Basically only LATAM & BA/IB are propping the whole alliance up. Star has added all the premium carriers it can and is filling in network with secondary carriers. TBH I have used all three alliances, and I don't think that there is much in them. All alliances have "halo" carriers and weaker carriers and strong regions.

User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1241 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21243 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
When you think of...

Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

I fail to see the need to rank airline alliances. It will always be subjective. But as a passenger I would take Vietnam, Garuda, China airlines over any European /North American Oneworld, Skyteam or Star carrier any day of the week.
Meanwhile Saudi, China Eastern, Tarom and Aeroflot are not worse and sometimes better than the usual American or for that sake European carrier.
Aerolineas Argentinas yeah thats one big basketcase. But oneworld has Air Berlin a hybrid lowcost carrier and Star well Egyptair isnt exactly a bed of roses and neither is US Airways...

We can go on and it becomes more and more subjective.

I think most westerners struggle to understand that for a passenger its very hard to speak about world class service when we fly North american and also European airlines. Our western airlines tend to be vastly overrated by us. And if we westerners fail the service discussion we tend to retreat to safety.

Safety, well there are professional auditors for that. But none of the airlines have planes falling out of the sky so I wouldnt shiver before I boarded any of them. Air Europa has never had a fatality for example.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineHiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 866 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19516 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 12):
I don't think so. The problem with SV is that it's a one destination airline. Add to that the destination is a place that is difficult (and just being honest, not very desirable) to get to, and it's hard to see what value SV actually adds. I know they needed ST & all, but the fact is that unless you have a very specific reason to visit the kingdom, there's really not a lot SV can do for you.

How is that in any way relevant to SV's safety record and service levels?


User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 635 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19412 times:

As presented in the original query; What is the criteria?

I imagine that Perks are a great incentive to remain loyal to an alliance or another.
Is it schedules? Price? Do you stay loyal to the alliance if the price is higher? The schedule not so convinient?
What else drives the customer to support one alliance over another?


User currently onlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 19227 times:

Puzzling post, this.

In terms of FF offerings, the three are very different. In terms of safety .... well Korean had a very strange run not so long ago, AF 447 was damaging to the reputation, MS had a bizzare incident out of JFK, ET flew into weather out of BEY, SQ trying to take off from the wrong runway, AC with a pilot losing his marbles on a TATL flight in 2008...if you wanted to nitpick, you could go on and on. They're all generally safe.

Frankly, it only the FF program that matters to me in this comparison. The rest is academic. Any airline can have a really bad day - it is, after all, the perfect storm of several things going wrong in quick succession. *A has the best benefits, best redemption charts etc. That said the only major airline that can beat UA for worst in flight long haul service is AA.... and neither belong in ST. Soo....


User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3006 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18934 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting VC10er (Reply 10):
And is Korean as good as the ads depict? I flew them in First about 10 years ago and was so excited...then so let down by the product. Service was good.

KE has introduced two new types of F class seats since then.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2279 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18768 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

An American commenting on "world-class service of airlines" in Asia and Europe? How about some peanuts then? Or pretzels. Or nothing at all.  

Frankly the worst airlines I've flown are United and US Airways. And I've flown Bahamasair and Air Moldova (which actually craps all over the big US airlines, in both perceived safety AND actual service). Guess Star Alliance is shit, then. How about Tyrolean, whose safety demos take 50 seconds? Not very safe, right?

And oneworld is all but useless for me in Europe. British Airways, Iberia and Finnair? Great for connecting in Europe! Guess oneworld is crap then? I mean, Iberia? That's often classed as the worst in customer service.

SkyTeam is the only alliance that makes any sense for me at the moment. But then again... 90% of airlines are at least a bit crappy.


User currently offlinenethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1079 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17945 times:

yes yes yes....SkyTeam if full of third rate airlines.
I don't want to fly any of the airlines in SkyTeam alliance.
The name is just wrong for the beginning.



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13739 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17672 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
Service on Vietnam airlines short haul economy is superior to anything you get on Lufthansa or British Airway

I would disagree. Service on VN in my experience in Y appears to be basic, minimal and not superior at all to LH or BA. By no means worse though; it's hard to do worse than the bare basics.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6882 posts, RR: 63
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17521 times:

I more or less understand (and perhaps agree with) where this post is coming from but I've had the opportunity to fly China Airlines a fair bit and I'd welcome them into any alliance. No complaints there.

User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17352 times:

I don't think Skyteam is THAT bad, I just think they have nothing on Star Alliance. AF, KL, DL all good. Korean is supposed to be great too.

When you really think about it, One World isnt all that great either when you factor in that Iberia is one of the pinnacle members.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1355 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17177 times:

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 15):

How is that in any way relevant to SV's safety record and service levels?

As mentioned up thread, this isn't about Saftey per se, as that's not likely to be all that different among the carriers of a given alliance.

If I read you right, you're saying that SV isn't a second tier carrier and has a decent product. I'm saying that's not the case for the reasons mentioned already (without regard to onboard product or safety specifically; like most, I take the hollistic stance that "product" factors in every type of usefulness an airline has to offer, not just onboard service.)

Service levels, especially in that regard, would be tremendously relevant to whether or not a carrier is 2nd tier or not, within an alliance as well. I couldn't, as an example, use SV the same way I would EK to get from LHR to the South Pacific, or from JFK to BOM. I think that's what's being looked at here.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
25 usdcaguy : The problem as I see it is not so much carrier-specific but an issue of coverage. While the US, China and Europe are very well covered, it would help
26 PHX787 : I have a buddy who flies for them and some other friends who are from vietnam, and I hear nothing but praise for their service in comparison to other
27 AirGabon : I flew with SU during 2 years from SVO to Europe and inside Russia, I promise you, their business class service is top, with a 2x2 real seating config
28 FlyingHollander : As far as I'm concerned every alliance has some good airlines and some airlines you'd rather avoid. So no, I would definitely not consider an alliance
29 CapEd388 : Why do you have to bring the guy's nationality into the conversation? If feels like you are thumbing your nose at Americans. I don't get why people h
30 EddieDude : DL and AM have relaunched their relationship. DL has taken a minority stake in AM and they are working towards increasing the number of codeshare fli
31 usdcaguy : Which doesn't mean much beyond code sharing and reciprocal FF benefits. I don't see a huge revenue advantage here for either carrier. Any particular
32 Viscount724 : SkyTeam has excellent service to virtually all major cities in Germany thanks to KL and AF. I fly several times a year from GVA to various points in
33 LY777 : Personally, I prefer Skyteam over Oneworld: - DL is way better than AA - S7 is worse than SU - IB is not exactly a great airline
34 ElPistolero : Nothing in what sense? *A is ahead mostly because of the strong Asia/ME contingent - NZ, SQ, TG, TK etc. The rest of the *A carriers - SAA, UA/CO, US
35 pvjin : Maybe not world class service, but I doubt they are any less safe than airlines in other alliances... In terms of safety would pick them over most US
36 LJ : If you mean Germany domestic the answer is yes, but that´s not an important market. If you mean connections ex Germany I woould say ST has relativel
37 mayor : Wasn't GOL supposed to join Skyteam?
38 DocLightning : I wouldn't call DL, KL, AF, or KE "third-rate" airlines. Of the US majors, DL is doing very well from a point of view of passenger satisfaction and ov
39 LJ : No indication that they´ll join other than that DL invested in GOL (but this hasn´t resulted in Skyteam membership).
40 Darksnowynight : I'm sure there are folks here that can answer that one better than I. But, as a general rule, not really. It's pretty much O&D, unless you're goi
41 abrelosojos : = I personally find China Airlines excellent. They are a whole lot better than the other founding SkyTeam airlines. I have also had good luck on Aero
42 Viscount724 : No, most nationalties can transit Saudi Arabia without a visa. If they're flying SV the maximum connecting time is 18 hours. For all other carriers i
43 meta : Skyteam has a fair share of airlines that are questionable, but so do OW and *A. *A: Adria, Aegean, LOT, Ethiopian Airlines, Croatia Airlines, Blue1,
44 pvjin : What is so questionable about those airlines you just listed?
45 meta : The person I was quoting listed questionable airlines from SkyTeam, so I was giving a comparison of airlines from *A/OW that would seem to fit under
46 planejamie : I disagree, if anything I think SkyTeam is home to some airlines that in a few years will be up there with the likes of SQ, TG, CX, EK etc. I've never
47 FI642 : A comprehensive safety audit and safety standards are required for admission into SkyTeam. Certainly they would not admit a carrier who did not meet t
48 LOWS : s=subsidiary. So, flights operated by UA or CO crews and planes.
49 UALWN : Exactly. LAN? SAA? TACA? TAP? What's questionable about them?
50 LX138 : Blimey you must be used to private jets or something. Brussels Airlines - leading airline in the regions/markets they serve, major leader in quality,
51 AA94 : I think this is the most accurate description. It's not that the carriers are unsafe, per se, but rather that they are not large, "world class" airli
52 Post contains images RAGAZZO777 : TACA and LAN, seriously ?! Is that because they're based in Central and South America ? If so, you must still be living in the past century...
53 Mortyman : Brussels Airlines ? Ethiopian Airlines ? Don't understand, sorry ...
54 enilria : I do not agree with the thread's point, BUT Korean does have a pretty poor safety record...albeit not in the last decade. from wikipedia... Korean Ai
55 dcann40 : Based on the members who are leading the alliance, Delta, Air France, KLM, plus Korean and a few others, I am hard pressed to agree with your stateme
56 abrelosojos : = This is correct. You DO NOT need a transit visa for most nationalities in Saudi Arabia. I wonder why some people still believe. = In what way is an
57 DLDiamondboy : I will contribute my 2 cents worth. Just finished ATL-ICN-HKG-ICN-ATL on KE in prestige class. The A380 was nice but the service was nothing compared
58 Post contains images Akiestar : I don't understand why we have this obsession over the image of these so-called "questionable" airlines in all three alliances. Among the so-called li
59 aerorobnz : Yes it does happen - regularly. AA I concur has been a huge part of making oneworld what it is, but being a major carrier does not make it exempt fro
60 EMB170 : Although I am a proud DL loyalist for the last 14 years, I too wondered at one point if SkyTeam was turning into the "leftovers" alliance as they mana
61 shanderawx : Flew SkyTeam this summer with connections on MEA and Olympic and could not have been more pleased, stellar service! AF across the ocean, and exemplary
62 mayor : What are you talking about?? How did Skyteam, "lose" these airlines if they were never members to begin with? And before you say, "What about SQ?", t
63 AF185 : I do not agree with this statement. I flew from HK to Brazil last month, the best options (by far) available were provided by Skyteam, on DL, AF or K
64 olddominion727 : Except for AF, AM, AF/KL (sometimes AZ), I wouldn't fly across the street on Tarom, Aeroflot etc. And about 15-20 years ago, DL was wooing KE with a f
65 mayor : I don't recall DL "wooing" KE before Skyteam was founded, which was in 2000. After it was founded, KE had some maintenance and safety issues, so they
66 OB1504 : Including LAN in your list proved to me that you have no idea what you're talking about. CI also had an abysmal safety record (the joke being that th
67 syncmaster : At the end of the day the core of SkyTeam is arguably DL / KL / AF, these other smaller carriers (and they are just that, smaller not necessarily bad
68 Post contains images jumpjets : I have just had my first ever experience of AZ: LHR-FCO-NAP-LIN-LHR - 1xA321, 2xA320, 1X E190. All the flights were punctual, the cabin crew cheerful
69 dc9northwest : All the airlines listed here are "safe" (in all 3 alliances). Not all of them offer good customer service (S and E Europe--that includes France, Unite
70 BoeingGuy : Yeah, LAN is the best overall airline in South America. In my experience, it is in every way at the same level as a US or European "first world" airl
71 AF185 : What a stereotype!! I don't recall AF/KL and AZ having more strikes problems than LH and BA/IB in the last few years! The whole European aviation is
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