questions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 333 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 19754 times:
I've read it before and I just read it again, "[insert name] airlines is too premium of an airline for SkyTeam."
Does SkyTeam really have a reputation of being an alliance of third rate airlines? Is it considered inferior to Star Alliance and oneworld? If so, what is the judging criteria?
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 5106 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 19745 times:
I don't know about you, but (even though I hate DL for their customer service on non-sky miles Y domestic and for pulling out of CVG) DL is one heck of a good airline, if you ask me. I'm 2000 miles short of becoming a gold member.
I've also have had no issues when I've flown with AF or KL. All really good quality airlines with really good quality products.
Sure EK and SQ are probably the top dogs when it comes to offerings but you still can't beat the friendly smiles you get from the DL and AF attendants!
Byrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 19644 times:
Short answer, yes. However, there are some bright spots in ST. Korean being one of them.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
usflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1809 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19509 times:
The core SkyTeam Airlines are fine (DL, AM, AF, KL, KE, CZ, ME, OK and even KQ) but it definitely has more questionable 2nd tier carriers than Star and Oneworld.
When you think of...
Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot
is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.
Before I get flamed, I understand Garuda and Aeroflot have improved greatly over the last few years but their poor reputation precedes them.
CapEd388 From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 218 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 19303 times:
I'm sorry, but how are Delta, KLM, Air France, Korean Air, AeroMexico, China Southern etc. low quality or unsafe airlines??
I know that these core members are not at the premium level of Emirates, Etihad or Singapore, but they are not exactly low quality airlines. They offer comparable and competitive service to that of the core members of the other two alliances.
I am neutral when it comes to the alliances, I think they all have their strengths and their weaknesses, but to suggest that somehow SkyTeam has all the low quality and unsafe airlines is a little unfair and misguided.
rwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3024 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19202 times:
Living in AMS, SkyTeam works okay for me. Generally speaking, I can easily fly direct to those places I travel most, including long-haul destinations lik PDX, SEA, SIN, HKG, and CPT. With that said, Star Alliance clearly has better coverage to many places in Europe and especially within Asia. The core SkyTeam carriers like KL, AF, DL, and KE are fine, and AZ, OK, and KQ are reasonable enough. That said, travelling between major business markets in Asia is a challenge (I was in SIN for two months and my SkyTeam membership was basically worthless for travelling within the region unless I wanted to connect at second tier cities in China).
Lately, Skyteam is picking up a lot of carriers that add no value to the alliance. Seems that they are going to quantity over quality. The reality is that most of these carriers have a very limited number new destinations and are not known for operational excellence.
In summary, Skyteam works well for me living in AMS, but if I didn't live in a Skyteam hub I wouldn't really see the point.
bestwestern From Ireland, joined Sep 2000, 6510 posts, RR: 58 Reply 7, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 19163 times:
This question again.....
Service on Vietnam airlines short haul economy is superior to anything you get on Lufthansa or British Airways and vastly superior to United. Garuda offers a better regional J class from Australia than Qantas, and China Eastern is superior to Air China. Aeroflot offers Europes best business class.
It's hardly a secret that Egyptair is rubbish. Air Europa survived, Spanair didn't. Adria is on the ropes, Tarom keeps flying, Malev is gone, Czech isn't.
LOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 992 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18896 times:
Look. I hate sUA. I avoid them TATL at all costs. sCO I liked, but I'd rather be on LH or OS.
But because SZG is really only connected to TATL by LH or OS through FRA/VIE* I am pretty much wedded to UA when I am in the US.
I would love to try the new Delta, but I've not had an occasion to, since all my travel to the US is either coming from or going home to SZG. But if their service is really as good as it sounds like, I wish they would swap alliances with UA...
*Yes, I know that theoretically AB could connect me from SZG-DUS-MIA/JFK/LAX but when you need to go SZG-XXX-XXX-OKC, and neither AA or AB can book that online, why bother with the hassle?
What do you mean "no Sky Miles in Y"? On Delta. I don't fly them often but I know that upgrades etc are very hard to get?
And is Korean as good as the ads depict? I flew them in First about 10 years ago and was so excited...then so let down by the product. Service was good.
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 25122 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18832 times:
Being Gold tier with the major three I rate them as follows.
Star Alliance 1st
Oneworld 2nd
Skyteam 3rd
If I had to choose not to renew Gold status with any of the above I would drop ST without hesitation. I actually think SV and ME have been a decent addition to the alliance especially MEA which is an under estimated carrier. The only thing that holds them back is the political situation in Lebanon.
With regards Aeroflot are they still refusing AF/KL Elites into the lounges due to an argument? Not the type of crap I want to encounter on my travels that's for sure.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
Darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1013 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18823 times:
Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 8):
SV may not have the level of service of the likes of SQ but it has a good safety record and a decent product thank you very much.
I don't think so. The problem with SV is that it's a one destination airline. Add to that the destination is a place that is difficult (and just being honest, not very desirable) to get to, and it's hard to see what value SV actually adds. I know they needed ST & all, but the fact is that unless you have a very specific reason to visit the kingdom, there's really not a lot SV can do for you.
Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6369 posts, RR: 13 Reply 13, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 18784 times:
No more than one world is these days, and whereas Skyteam is grooming second tier and third tier careers and trying to growing them into something to back up their big guns - Oneworld is being broken up by bankruptcy and other issues like QF/EK. Basically only LATAM & BA/IB are propping the whole alliance up. Star has added all the premium carriers it can and is filling in network with secondary carriers. TBH I have used all three alliances, and I don't think that there is much in them. All alliances have "halo" carriers and weaker carriers and strong regions.
Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot
is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.
I fail to see the need to rank airline alliances. It will always be subjective. But as a passenger I would take Vietnam, Garuda, China airlines over any European /North American Oneworld, Skyteam or Star carrier any day of the week.
Meanwhile Saudi, China Eastern, Tarom and Aeroflot are not worse and sometimes better than the usual American or for that sake European carrier.
Aerolineas Argentinas yeah thats one big basketcase. But oneworld has Air Berlin a hybrid lowcost carrier and Star well Egyptair isnt exactly a bed of roses and neither is US Airways...
We can go on and it becomes more and more subjective.
I think most westerners struggle to understand that for a passenger its very hard to speak about world class service when we fly North american and also European airlines. Our western airlines tend to be vastly overrated by us. And if we westerners fail the service discussion we tend to retreat to safety.
Safety, well there are professional auditors for that. But none of the airlines have planes falling out of the sky so I wouldnt shiver before I boarded any of them. Air Europa has never had a fatality for example.
HiJazzey From Saudi Arabia, joined Sep 2005, 788 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16930 times:
Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 12): I don't think so. The problem with SV is that it's a one destination airline. Add to that the destination is a place that is difficult (and just being honest, not very desirable) to get to, and it's hard to see what value SV actually adds. I know they needed ST & all, but the fact is that unless you have a very specific reason to visit the kingdom, there's really not a lot SV can do for you.
How is that in any way relevant to SV's safety record and service levels?
xdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 539 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16826 times:
As presented in the original query; What is the criteria?
I imagine that Perks are a great incentive to remain loyal to an alliance or another.
Is it schedules? Price? Do you stay loyal to the alliance if the price is higher? The schedule not so convinient?
What else drives the customer to support one alliance over another?
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 637 posts, RR: 2 Reply 17, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 16641 times:
Puzzling post, this.
In terms of FF offerings, the three are very different. In terms of safety .... well Korean had a very strange run not so long ago, AF 447 was damaging to the reputation, MS had a bizzare incident out of JFK, ET flew into weather out of BEY, SQ trying to take off from the wrong runway, AC with a pilot losing his marbles on a TATL flight in 2008...if you wanted to nitpick, you could go on and on. They're all generally safe.
Frankly, it only the FF program that matters to me in this comparison. The rest is academic. Any airline can have a really bad day - it is, after all, the perfect storm of several things going wrong in quick succession. *A has the best benefits, best redemption charts etc. That said the only major airline that can beat UA for worst in flight long haul service is AA.... and neither belong in ST. Soo....
HOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2692 posts, RR: 54 Reply 18, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16348 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
Quoting VC10er (Reply 10): And is Korean as good as the ads depict? I flew them in First about 10 years ago and was so excited...then so let down by the product. Service was good.
KE has introduced two new types of F class seats since then.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
dc9northwest From Romania, joined Feb 2007, 1749 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 16182 times:
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4): is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.
An American commenting on "world-class service of airlines" in Asia and Europe? How about some peanuts then? Or pretzels. Or nothing at all.
Frankly the worst airlines I've flown are United and US Airways. And I've flown Bahamasair and Air Moldova (which actually craps all over the big US airlines, in both perceived safety AND actual service). Guess Star Alliance is shit, then. How about Tyrolean, whose safety demos take 50 seconds? Not very safe, right?
And oneworld is all but useless for me in Europe. British Airways, Iberia and Finnair? Great for connecting in Europe! Guess oneworld is crap then? I mean, Iberia? That's often classed as the worst in customer service.
SkyTeam is the only alliance that makes any sense for me at the moment. But then again... 90% of airlines are at least a bit crappy.
nethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 987 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15359 times:
yes yes yes....SkyTeam if full of third rate airlines.
I don't want to fly any of the airlines in SkyTeam alliance.
The name is just wrong for the beginning.
Don't be annoyed knowing the passengers around you are non-revs and op-upgraders, be grateful for them. Life is beautifu
SInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13711 posts, RR: 21 Reply 21, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 15086 times:
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7): Service on Vietnam airlines short haul economy is superior to anything you get on Lufthansa or British Airway
I would disagree. Service on VN in my experience in Y appears to be basic, minimal and not superior at all to LH or BA. By no means worse though; it's hard to do worse than the bare basics.
PM From India, joined Feb 2005, 6753 posts, RR: 65 Reply 22, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14935 times:
I more or less understand (and perhaps agree with) where this post is coming from but I've had the opportunity to fly China Airlines a fair bit and I'd welcome them into any alliance. No complaints there.
Darksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1013 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 14591 times:
Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 15):
How is that in any way relevant to SV's safety record and service levels?
As mentioned up thread, this isn't about Saftey per se, as that's not likely to be all that different among the carriers of a given alliance.
If I read you right, you're saying that SV isn't a second tier carrier and has a decent product. I'm saying that's not the case for the reasons mentioned already (without regard to onboard product or safety specifically; like most, I take the hollistic stance that "product" factors in every type of usefulness an airline has to offer, not just onboard service.)
Service levels, especially in that regard, would be tremendously relevant to whether or not a carrier is 2nd tier or not, within an alliance as well. I couldn't, as an example, use SV the same way I would EK to get from LHR to the South Pacific, or from JFK to BOM. I think that's what's being looked at here.
Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
25 usdcaguy: The problem as I see it is not so much carrier-specific but an issue of coverage. While the US, China and Europe are very well covered, it would help
26 PHX787: I have a buddy who flies for them and some other friends who are from vietnam, and I hear nothing but praise for their service in comparison to other
27 AirGabon: I flew with SU during 2 years from SVO to Europe and inside Russia, I promise you, their business class service is top, with a 2x2 real seating config
28 FlyingHollander: As far as I'm concerned every alliance has some good airlines and some airlines you'd rather avoid. So no, I would definitely not consider an alliance
29 CapEd388: Why do you have to bring the guy's nationality into the conversation? If feels like you are thumbing your nose at Americans. I don't get why people h
30 EddieDude: DL and AM have relaunched their relationship. DL has taken a minority stake in AM and they are working towards increasing the number of codeshare fli
31 usdcaguy: Which doesn't mean much beyond code sharing and reciprocal FF benefits. I don't see a huge revenue advantage here for either carrier. Any particular
32 Viscount724: SkyTeam has excellent service to virtually all major cities in Germany thanks to KL and AF. I fly several times a year from GVA to various points in
33 LY777: Personally, I prefer Skyteam over Oneworld: - DL is way better than AA - S7 is worse than SU - IB is not exactly a great airline
34 ElPistolero: Nothing in what sense? *A is ahead mostly because of the strong Asia/ME contingent - NZ, SQ, TG, TK etc. The rest of the *A carriers - SAA, UA/CO, US
35 pvjin: Maybe not world class service, but I doubt they are any less safe than airlines in other alliances... In terms of safety would pick them over most US
36 LJ: If you mean Germany domestic the answer is yes, but that´s not an important market. If you mean connections ex Germany I woould say ST has relativel
38 DocLightning: I wouldn't call DL, KL, AF, or KE "third-rate" airlines. Of the US majors, DL is doing very well from a point of view of passenger satisfaction and ov
39 LJ: No indication that they´ll join other than that DL invested in GOL (but this hasn´t resulted in Skyteam membership).
40 Darksnowynight: I'm sure there are folks here that can answer that one better than I. But, as a general rule, not really. It's pretty much O&D, unless you're goi
41 abrelosojos: = I personally find China Airlines excellent. They are a whole lot better than the other founding SkyTeam airlines. I have also had good luck on Aero
42 Viscount724: No, most nationalties can transit Saudi Arabia without a visa. If they're flying SV the maximum connecting time is 18 hours. For all other carriers i
43 meta: Skyteam has a fair share of airlines that are questionable, but so do OW and *A. *A: Adria, Aegean, LOT, Ethiopian Airlines, Croatia Airlines, Blue1,
44 pvjin: What is so questionable about those airlines you just listed?
45 meta: The person I was quoting listed questionable airlines from SkyTeam, so I was giving a comparison of airlines from *A/OW that would seem to fit under
46 planejamie: I disagree, if anything I think SkyTeam is home to some airlines that in a few years will be up there with the likes of SQ, TG, CX, EK etc. I've never
47 FI642: A comprehensive safety audit and safety standards are required for admission into SkyTeam. Certainly they would not admit a carrier who did not meet t
48 LOWS: s=subsidiary. So, flights operated by UA or CO crews and planes.
50 LX138: Blimey you must be used to private jets or something. Brussels Airlines - leading airline in the regions/markets they serve, major leader in quality,
51 AA94: I think this is the most accurate description. It's not that the carriers are unsafe, per se, but rather that they are not large, "world class" airli
52 RAGAZZO777: TACA and LAN, seriously ?! Is that because they're based in Central and South America ? If so, you must still be living in the past century...
54 enilria: I do not agree with the thread's point, BUT Korean does have a pretty poor safety record...albeit not in the last decade. from wikipedia... Korean Ai
55 dcann40: Based on the members who are leading the alliance, Delta, Air France, KLM, plus Korean and a few others, I am hard pressed to agree with your stateme
56 abrelosojos: = This is correct. You DO NOT need a transit visa for most nationalities in Saudi Arabia. I wonder why some people still believe. = In what way is an
57 DLDiamondboy: I will contribute my 2 cents worth. Just finished ATL-ICN-HKG-ICN-ATL on KE in prestige class. The A380 was nice but the service was nothing compared
58 Akiestar: I don't understand why we have this obsession over the image of these so-called "questionable" airlines in all three alliances. Among the so-called li
59 aerorobnz: Yes it does happen - regularly. AA I concur has been a huge part of making oneworld what it is, but being a major carrier does not make it exempt fro
60 EMB170: Although I am a proud DL loyalist for the last 14 years, I too wondered at one point if SkyTeam was turning into the "leftovers" alliance as they mana
61 shanderawx: Flew SkyTeam this summer with connections on MEA and Olympic and could not have been more pleased, stellar service! AF across the ocean, and exemplary
62 mayor: What are you talking about?? How did Skyteam, "lose" these airlines if they were never members to begin with? And before you say, "What about SQ?", t
63 AF185: I do not agree with this statement. I flew from HK to Brazil last month, the best options (by far) available were provided by Skyteam, on DL, AF or K
64 olddominion727: Except for AF, AM, AF/KL (sometimes AZ), I wouldn't fly across the street on Tarom, Aeroflot etc. And about 15-20 years ago, DL was wooing KE with a f
65 mayor: I don't recall DL "wooing" KE before Skyteam was founded, which was in 2000. After it was founded, KE had some maintenance and safety issues, so they
66 OB1504: Including LAN in your list proved to me that you have no idea what you're talking about. CI also had an abysmal safety record (the joke being that th
67 syncmaster: At the end of the day the core of SkyTeam is arguably DL / KL / AF, these other smaller carriers (and they are just that, smaller not necessarily bad
68 jumpjets: I have just had my first ever experience of AZ: LHR-FCO-NAP-LIN-LHR - 1xA321, 2xA320, 1X E190. All the flights were punctual, the cabin crew cheerful
69 dc9northwest: All the airlines listed here are "safe" (in all 3 alliances). Not all of them offer good customer service (S and E Europe--that includes France, Unite
70 BoeingGuy: Yeah, LAN is the best overall airline in South America. In my experience, it is in every way at the same level as a US or European "first world" airl
71 AF185: What a stereotype!! I don't recall AF/KL and AZ having more strikes problems than LH and BA/IB in the last few years! The whole European aviation is
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