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Wide-bodies On Domestic And Intra-European Flights  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2688 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10977 times:

Hi all,

I know we have discussed it many times, but I was wondering which European airlines still operate wide bodies on their domestic and European flights.
In the 80s, many flights were operated by wide-bodies: AF, LH, IB with their A300s for example.

Unfortunately, most of these flights are now operated by A32X (or at best 737NGs mainly for LCC), and this is very boring.

Which European airlines still operate widebodies on these routes?

I can think of BA with their 763Domestic but they are due to leave soon AFAIK
TK also operates some A330s, assuming TK is a European airline.

Is there a possibilty that we see more wide-body operations intra-Europe?


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10844 times:
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- During the summer months Aeroflot operates into Larnaca using either their B767-300, A330-300 or IL-96. I believe it is the flight that departs Moscow at around 05:00.

- British Airways operates into Larnaca with their B767-300 and if I am not mistaken they also fly them into Athens, Istanbul, Madrid (not sure) and Stockholm.

- Doesn't Iberia fly their A340s into London Heathrow?


User currently offlinedeltamartin From Sweden, joined Dec 2010, 1061 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10781 times:

AB has a few high-density A333's which they fly from Germany to PMI and the Canaries.

TK does indeed send some widebodies to Europe, they are quite flexible with their fleet depending on demand, so it's often difficult to know where these will go. It's mostly A330's but also A343 and the occasional 77W.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 1):
- During the summer months Aeroflot operates into Larnaca using either their B767-300, A330-300 or IL-96. I believe it is the flight that departs Moscow at around 05:00.

I believe it's several widebody flights a day during the summer, equipment varies depending on which day it is. I flew an IL-96 on the SVO-LCA route this summer and that departure time was 15:30.
Il-96 With Aeroflot: ARN-TLL-SVO-LCA-ARN (by deltamartin Sep 12 2012 in Trip Reports)
If I remember correctly, when booking, the other SU flights that day were operated by another IL-96 and an A333.

SU also sends widebodies to AYT, IST and next summer also a destination on the Canary Islands IIRC.

Martin


User currently offline02hilliert From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2007, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10749 times:

They are so often forgotten in discussions like this, but Monarch regularly use A300s and A330s on short-haul flights within Europe, with the most popular destinations being AGP / PMI / TFS / ACE / DLM / LCA / PFO.


Next Up: Back to the US - Charlotte & Kansas City
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10734 times:

It is a shma wedon't see more widebodies on these routes like in Asia, where flying 777s on a 2 hour flight is very frequent.


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10736 times:

From FRA, I can think of the following flights:

BA: FRA-LHR (763)
LA: FRA-MAD (A343, soon 788)
KU: FRA-GVA (A306)
AB: FRA-PMI (A333 in summer)
TK: FRA-IST (A333, occasionally)
DE: FRA to bigger European destinations (763 occasionally)


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2816 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10701 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 1):
- Doesn't Iberia fly their A340s into London Heathrow?

And also to Tenerife and Gran Canaria.

[Edited 2012-10-31 06:32:06]


AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10692 times:

IB operates daily or very often A340´s to LHR, Gran Canaria, Tenerife, sometimes to Barcelona.

BA operates B763 to MAD and BCN quite often, also B744 to Moscow and even B763.

Lan Chile operates MAD-FRA on A340 and soon it will be B787.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10676 times:
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Quoting UALWN (Reply 6):

Thanks for that.

Doesn't Kuwait Airways also fly an intra-European route?


User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10553 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 8):
Doesn't Kuwait Airways also fly an intra-European route?

According to http://www.kuwaitairways.com/map.html they fly FRA-GVA, CDG-GVA and CDG-FCO.


User currently offlineSCQ83 From United States of America, joined Oct 2012, 958 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10536 times:

Transaero also sends widebodies (including B747) to Spanish destinations, at least DME-BCN.

User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10381 times:

Yes, the intra-European skies became dreadfully boring - i mean, we're in a time where an A321 looks somewhat exotic... (compared to the never-ending twins of B737/319/320). Very sad indeed. I was about to point out that the main airlines having some wide-bodies around Europe are IB (the LHR flights) and SU. Some years ago i remember SU sending their Il-96 to BEG in periods of high demand but now if the 2/3 daily flights are full, they'll remain full - there'll be no capacity upgrade.

User currently offlinetolmachevo From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10317 times:

I think EI also use A333 on DUB-AGP on occasion, it somehow fits in between the arrival of the aircraft from the U.S. in the early morning and the return departure in the afternoon...

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Photo © Diego Ruiz de Vargas - Iberian Spotters



User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 838 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10317 times:

BA operate 767s on certain peak services from LHR to GLA and EDI - but not daily if I recall correctly.

User currently offlineBAW217 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10280 times:

BA's winter 767 usage within Europe is as follows:

15x Weekly - Edinburgh (Mon-Sat BA1434/1441, Mon-Fri and Sun BA1464, Sat BA1456, Daily BA1435, Sun BA1442/1445 & BA1452/1459)
11x Weekly - Glasgow (Mon-Sat BA1484/1489 & Mon-Fri BA1492/1497)
6x Weekly - Amsterdam (Mon-Wed & Fri-Sun BA428/429)
Daily - Athens (BA632/633)
6x Weekly - Copenhagen (Mon-Fri & Sun BA818/819)
Daily - Frankfurt (BA902/903)
Daily - Istanbul (BA676/677)
Daily - Larnaca (BA662/663)
Daily - Madrid (BA456/457)
Daily - Stockholm (BA780/781)


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10235 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
BA operates B763 to MAD and BCN quite often, also B744 to Moscow and even B763.

Wow, I did not realize that BA used a 744 on their Moscow route. Why, do they have that much traffic on that route?



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinepesit4a From Ireland, joined Jul 2012, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10164 times:

Quoting tolmachevo (Reply 12):

Yes, Aer Lingus use an A333 on DUB-AGP every day during IATA summer season on the EI582/583 rotation. The aircraft arrives from JFK or BOS, departs for Malaga, and after arrival back at Dublin, operates the last departure to JFK, the EI109.



You just can't keep a good man down!
User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10023 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 16):
Wow, I did not realize that BA used a 744 on their Moscow route. Why, do they have that much traffic on that route?

It´s a new rotation, they used to operate B767 in the route, Must be because of cargo and Good premium and high Yield load, and now we know that VS will not be in the route, the rights went to Easyjet, so i´m sure it´s even better for BA.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 10):
Transaero also sends widebodies (including B747) to Spanish destinations, at least DME-BCN.

Not only Transaero, but some other Russian airlines fly the widebodies to Spain, Il-86/96 and Airbus 300/310 (Siberia Airlines), i´m not sure if they still do it but they used to, I remember seeing them in BCN.

I´m not sure if you want to talk about Cargo airlines but many of them also fly widebodies in european routes from A300´s to B747´s.

Then many airlines fly them in charter operation like Thomas Cook, Pullmantur.....


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9793 times:
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Quoting BAW217 (Reply 15):
6x Weekly - Copenhagen (Mon-Fri & Sun BA818/819)

Since when was a B767-300 operated into Copenhagen? Is this new?


User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9757 times:

EK flies an A332 between MLA and LCA.
I might actually take that flight in April...  



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineBAW217 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 127 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9712 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 19):
Since when was a B767-300 operated into Copenhagen? Is this new?

Yes, started this week at the beginning of the winter scheduling season.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25464 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9662 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 9):

According to http://www.kuwaitairways.com/map.html they fly FRA-GVA, CDG-GVA and CDG-FCO.

Only FRA-GVA (2 x week) and CDG-FCO (4 x week) appear to currently operate. All shown as A300-600.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 5):
From FRA, I can think of the following flights:

BA: FRA-LHR (763)
LA: FRA-MAD (A343, soon 788)
KU: FRA-GVA (A306)
AB: FRA-PMI (A333 in summer)
TK: FRA-IST (A333, occasionally)
DE: FRA to bigger European destinations (763 occasionally)

And from MUC, daily SQ 77W MUC-MAN.


User currently offlineflyingfool From Netherlands, joined May 2005, 438 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9512 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 18):
I´m not sure if you want to talk about Cargo airlines but many of them also fly widebodies in european routes from A300´s to B747´s.

In/out of AMS I know the following;

CZ 77X AMS-VIE
SQ 74Y LHR-AMS
SQ 74Y AMS-CPH
KE 74Y AMS-ARN
RU 74Y AMS-DME
RU 74Y AMS-SVO
KZ 74Y AMS-MXP
UC 77X AMS-FRA
EK 74Y AMS-GOT
MP M1F AMS-TFS
MP M1F AMS-LPA
CX 74Y FRA-AMS
DHL AB6 LEJ-AMS


User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9253 times:

I thought BA also sent a 767 to ATH at least during summer. TK sends A330s to LHR once a day. For a while KL used an A330 once a day to LHR not too long ago, but I do not think they do that anymore. IB sends an A340 to LHR occasionally

Does SQ still do the MUC-MAN 5th freedom flight, but it is not a European airline

I do agree so much of Europe is an endless parade of the 737 319 and 320. At least in the US we are treated to an occasional 757. And I will agree with the others is that I love flying in Asia as it is like 90% widebodies, you have so many airlines without a single narrowbody.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9324 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 13):
What year did Aeroflot send their IL-96s to Belgrade? I have never seen/heard of an IL-96 being scheduled to BEG, and I have been closely following aviation movements in Belgrade.

As i carefully said, it wasn't scheduled but it was an occasional upgrade, on busy summer days and especially in the winter when the flights would be disrupted for a day due to low visibility (fog) before BEG got CAT IIIb. I was simply commenting that in comparable situations today or last winter for instance, when flights to Moscow were totally booked for 2-3 days ahead and it was impossible to get a place, no capacity up-gauge occurred whatsoever. I guess it's more profitable to have 3 narrow-bodies a day operate the route instead of one wide-body and one narrow-body, especially when it comes to the Il-96.


User currently offlineTJCAB From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9313 times:

...and Aeroflot IL 86/96's and A330's to Saltzburg during the Ski season

database search


User currently offlineMattuk From UK - England, joined Sep 2010, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9478 times:

TOM also operate a lot of 763 flights ex LGW & MAN to a variety of destinations in Europe.

User currently offlineaviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1355 posts, RR: 11
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9534 times:

It's funny, how the idea of widebodied planes on short-haul routes seems so odd nowadays.

Not all that long ago, be it in Europe or the US, widebodies were VERY common on short-haul flights.


PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8386 times:
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Quoting BAW217 (Reply 21):
Yes, started this week at the beginning of the winter scheduling season.

It is because of cargo demand as is the case with Stockholm or is there passenger demand?



There is also Air China's flight from Athens to Munich, operated by an A330-200.


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

There was this thread I started in 2011 about all the 5th freedom flights in Europe, most of them are still being flown, perhaps even some new ones exist:
List Of All 5th Freedom Flights In Europe... (by CARST Feb 19 2011 in Civil Aviation)#1


A.net member flyingalex posted this list at the end of the old thread, putting all posts together:

SQ: MUC-MAN-MUC
SQ328 MUC-MAN 06:35 - 07:50 77W (Daily)
SQ327 MUC-MAN 09:10 - 12:15 77W (Daily)

LA: MAD-FRA-MAD
LA704 MAD-FRA 15:15 - 17:55 340 (Daily except We)
LA705 FRA-MAD 19:40 - 22:25 340 (Daily except We)

LA: MAD-CDG-MAD
LA723 MAD-CDG 15:30 - 17:35 340 (WeFrSu)
LA722 CDG-MAD 19:40 - 21:55 340 (WeFrSu)

KU: FCO-CDG-FCO
KU165 FCO-CDG 16:55-19:05 AB6 (MoSa)
KU165 FCO-CDG 16:55-19:05 340 (TuTh)
KU166 CDG-FCO 09:45-11:55 AB6 (TuSu)
KU166 CDG-FCO 09:45-11:55 340 (WeFr)

KU: FRA-GVA-FRA
KU177 FRA-GVA 15:10-16:15 340 (WeFr)
KU178 GVA-FRA 11:45-12:55 340 (Th)
KU178 GVA-FRA 09:00-10:05 340 (Sa)

ET: FCO-ARN-FCO
ET702 FCO-ARN 06:50-10:00 757 (MoWeFrSa)
ET703 ARN-FCO 21:00-00:01 757 (MoWeFrSa)

OM: SVO-TXL-SVO
OM135 SVO-TXL 12:00-12:45 738 (ThSu)
OM136 TXL-SVO 14:00-18:30 738 (ThSu)

EK: LCA-MLA-LCA
EK107 LCA-MLA 12:15-14:10 332 (Daily)
EK108 MLA-LCA 15:45-19:10 332 (Daily)

CA: MUC-ATH-MUC (begins 11 May)
CA961 MUC-ATH 06:55-10:30 330 (Daily)
CA962 ATH-MUC 11:30-12:55 330 (Daily)

KE: MAD-AMS (as part of an ICN-MAD-AMS-ICN triangle)
KE926 MAD-AMS 09:30-12:00 772 (TuThSa)

KE: VIE-ZRH (as part of an ICN-VIE-ZRH-ICN triangle)
KE935 VIE-ZRH 18:45-20:05 772 (TuThSu)

PK: OSL-CPH (as part of a LHE-OSL-CPH-LHE triangle)
PK752 OSL-CPH 16:10-17:40 772 (We)

PK: CPH-OSL (as part of an ISB-CPH-OSL-ISB triangle)
PK772 CPH-OSL 17:40-19:00 77W (Sa)


User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 779 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 7546 times:

If the B 757-300 counts as a widebody then Condor has lots of these intra european flights ...

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):

I can think of BA with their 763Domestic but they are due to leave soon AFAIK

I don´t think they´re gonna leave soon as BA just made a cabin refurbishment on their 767´s (or is still in the process doing so - not sure if all have been refurbished already)



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlinenicode From France, joined May 2012, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7255 times:

There is also UX between MAD and PMI with an A332.

User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1846 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7197 times:

AF flies a 77W to BIA during the very busy summer period

User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7107 times:
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Well if we are also including charter flights then there are a bunch of Russian carriers flying their widebodies into Cyprus. Transaero regularly sends their B777s and B747s into Paphos, the same applies for Rhodes and a few other Greek destinations.
A lot of charter airlines operate widebodies into popular tourist resorts.


User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6587 times:

Quoting deltamartin (Reply 2):
AB has a few high-density A333's which they fly from Germany to PMI and the Canaries.

AFAIK AB will retire ALL A333 at the end of the summer season and replacing them with more A332 (e.g. ex MERIDIANAfly). I doubt we will see much A332 intra Europen traffic!

Quoting 02hilliert (Reply 3):
They are so often forgotten in discussions like this, but Monarch regularly use A300s and A330s on short-haul flights within Europe,

But much more forgotten are other Charter airlines like Thomson Airways (B767), CONDOR (B767) both on very limited routes and for sure Thomas Cook B767/A330 on high density charters...

BTW. Don't forget LOT's B787: http://www.lot.com/pl/en/web/newlot/promotion-details?promo=2112


User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1843 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6563 times:
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Quoting MHG (Reply 31):
If the B 757-300 counts as a widebody then Condor has lots of these intra european flights ...

B757 is a narrow body....

[Edited 2012-11-01 04:02:32]

User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 8
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 6403 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
TK also operates some A330s, assuming TK is a European airline.

You really do not need to "assume". Here's your proof...

http://www.aea.be/about/memberairlines/index.html



Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6147 times:

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 37):
You really do not need to "assume". Here's your proof...

Well TK is not an European airline anyway so there is really no space for arguing about anything of the type.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

Besides, if we're talking of LCA, i would like to mention another slight off-topic, the largest scheduled plane for an Euro-Mediterranean flight certainly has to be CDG-BEY on AF's 777-300. Some claim BEY being AF's second most profitable destination due to the large number of connecting passengers and a huge O&D market.

User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 8
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6066 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 38):
Well TK is not an European airline anyway so there is really no space for arguing about anything of the type.

You are of course entitled to your opinion wrong as it may be but why the hostility?



Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 6044 times:

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 40):
why the hostility?

When i say "arguing" i am not about hostility. I was just meaning that there is no point of two of you to argue regarding the issue whatsoever, given that fact.


User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 38):
Well TK is not an European airline anyway so there is really no space for arguing about anything of the type.

The legal fact as stated is: TK is a european airline. If you like it or not.


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5853 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 5):
DE: FRA to bigger European destinations (763 occasionally)

Their 757s regularly fly to Southern European destinations, although I'm not sure whether 757s count as widebodies, my aoplogies.

Quoting CARST (Reply 30):
A.net member flyingalex posted this list at the end of the old thread, putting all posts together:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't IR at some time use the A300 IKA-VIE-FRA for some time?



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5820 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 43):
Their 757s regularly fly to Southern European destinations, although I'm not sure whether 757s count as widebodies, my aoplogies.

My definition of a widebody is that it has a fuselage that is wide enough to fit two aisles. The narrowest wide body would therefore be the 767.

I found a few pictures of Condor's 767s in southern Europe:

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Jose Luis Guerrero - Iberian Spotters
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Javier Bravo Muñoz



User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2435 posts, RR: 4
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 5608 times:

Back to topic...

Quoting Semaex (Reply 43):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't IR at some time use the A300 IKA-VIE-FRA for some time?

True, and many other intra-European routes, but unfortunately without traffic rights!


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7573 posts, RR: 17
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 24):
I thought BA also sent a 767 to ATH at least during summer.
Quoting BAW217 (Reply 15):
Daily - Athens (BA632/633)
Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 38):
Well TK is not an European airline anyway so there is really no space for arguing about anything of the type.

Lots of space.

The TK HQ is located at Ataturk Airport in Yesilkoy, Bakırkoy, Istanbul. Ataturk Airport (IST) is geographically situated on the western side of the Bosphorus. It is therefore located in continental Europe.

Ataturk Airport is the main hub of Turkish Airlines. Ataturk Airport (IST) is geographically located in European Turkey.

Therefore TK is headquatered and hubbed in Europe.

Further in 2012 TK won the Skytrax Award for "Best Airline in Europe" which would be a strange award to give to a non-European airline.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5300 times:

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 42):
The legal fact as stated is: TK is a european airline.

Where is that "legally stated", can you enlighten me please? Did the UN and world-geographers recognize Anatolia as part of Europe?

Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):

Excuse me but is that airline called "Turkish Airlines" or "Istanbul Airlines"?

That's the national airline of a country whose capital and 95% of territory is located in Asia and whose historical/cultural heritage lies in the Middle-East (as much as they are trying to mimic Europe for the last century).

So according to your logic, if Iberia would decide to set their headquarters out of convenience at TFS you would consider them an African airline, or if AF decided to relocate theirs to Guadeloupe, they would become a Latin-American airline, just because that's part of French territory?   

Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):
Further in 2012 TK won the Skytrax Award for "Best Airline in Europe" which would be a strange award to give to a non-European airline.

Money can make miracles, Skytrax is far from being an independent and unbiased organization. Anyway i don't see who they would have voted for otherwise cause there are no any more decent major airlines in Europe.

If SU has no problem being considered an Eurasian airline i don't see what's that fuss coming from to push everything Turkish into "Europe" where it clearly doesn't belong besides for the 5% of territory. An airline belongs there where the country whose name it flies belongs, period. Turkey is an Asian/Middle-Eastern country and i don't see anything bad in that, just stop the nonsense.


User currently offlineTurkish350XWB From Switzerland, joined Jan 2009, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5228 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):

The TK HQ is located at Ataturk Airport in Yesilkoy, Bak%u0131rkoy, Istanbul. Ataturk Airport (IST) is geographically situated on the western side of the Bosphorus. It is therefore located in continental Europe.

Ataturk Airport is the main hub of Turkish Airlines. Ataturk Airport (IST) is geographically located in European Turkey.

Therefore TK is headquatered and hubbed in Europe.

Further in 2012 TK won the Skytrax Award for "Best Airline in Europe" which would be a strange award to give to a non-European airline.

And what is even more important: TK is member of the "Association of European Airlines AEA"

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
Where is that "legally stated", can you enlighten me please? Did the UN and world-geographers recognize Anatolia as part of Europe?

Man, take your head out the sand and have a look around: Turkey is involved in almost every European international organization.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
That's the national airline of a country whose capital and 95% of territory is located in Asia and whose historical/cultural heritage lies in the Middle-East (as much as they are trying to mimic Europe for the last century)

You are just proofing how ignorant you are in history... At least you know that the capital is not Istanbul, wow!

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
So according to your logic, if Iberia would decide to set their headquarters out of convenience at TFS you would consider them an African airline, or if AF decided to relocate theirs to Guadeloupe, they would become a Latin-American airline, just because that's part of French territory?

Of course not. Tenerife is part of Spain and Spain is a european country. Guadaloupe is part of France and therefore it would stay European. This is a legal definition, not a geographical one.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
If SU has no problem being considered an Eurasian airline

I do consider SU as a european airline as Russia is a european country, even though it may be geographically mostly asian.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
An airline belongs there where the country whose name it flies belongs, period. Turkey is an Asian/Middle-Eastern country and i don't see anything bad in that, just stop the nonsense.

Whatever. There are people believing in Santa Clause... I need to tolerate that...


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25464 posts, RR: 22
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5206 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 42):
The legal fact as stated is: TK is a european airline.

Where is that "legally stated", can you enlighten me please? Did the UN and world-geographers recognize Anatolia as part of Europe?

"Legal" isn't the best word, but TK has always considered themselves a European carrier, and IATA and other airline industry traffic statistics always include TK data with Europe, not Asia.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7573 posts, RR: 17
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5156 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
Excuse me but is that airline called "Turkish Airlines" or "Istanbul Airlines"?

It is Turkish Airlines (TK) or Turk Hava Yollari in Turkish.

The full address of its HQ is:

Turk Hava Yollari
General Administration Building
Ataturk Airport
Yesilkoy
34149 Istanbul

Check it out on their web site here:

http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-uk...-relation-call-center/sales-office

This certainly is not the HQ of Istanbul Airlines. After all they ceased trading more than 12 years ago. They went into administration on 8 August 2000. Then they had debts in excess of US $ 200 million.

Here is the most recent photos of any of their aircraft (excepting TC-ABA, a Caravelle that is in the Aircraft Museum at IST) in the a-net data base:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeremy Holdsworth



There are many more taken in the first half of 2000 and just a few in July 2000 but none since. This one was taken just a couple of weeks before IL went bankrupt.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
Did the UN and world-geographers recognize Anatolia as part of Europe?

No. But of what relevance is that? Anatolia lies entirely to the east of the Bosphorus and is therefore an integral part of Asia. Ataturk Airport (IST) is certainly NOT located in Anatolia. It is, however, located in European Turkey to the west of the Bosphorus. Very clearly any airline based in Europe with its main hub in Europe may be classified as being a European airline.


User currently offlineacidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5079 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 37):
You really do not need to "assume". Here's your proof...

http://www.aea.be/about/memberairlines/index.html
Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 38):
Well TK is not an European airline anyway so there is really no space for arguing about anything of the type.
Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 42):
The legal fact as stated is: TK is a european airline. If you like it or not.
Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):
The TK HQ is located at Ataturk Airport in Yesilkoy, Bakırkoy, Istanbul. Ataturk Airport (IST) is geographically situated on the western side of the Bosphorus. It is therefore located in continental Europe.

Ataturk Airport is the main hub of Turkish Airlines. Ataturk Airport (IST) is geographically located in European Turkey.

Therefore TK is headquatered and hubbed in Europe.

(whistle blows!) OK folks. We are degrading into an unnecessary cat-fight about whether Turkish Airlines is a European airline, or for that matter whether Turkey is "really" part of Europe. I could delete those posts or replace them with my own silly commentary but that would just be unnecessary censorship, would take away a lot of important points from the discussion and I'm just not into that. Let's do this - Turkey is "part Europe, part Middle East". It's kind of hard to really call it either/or. How about for the sake of this discussion we consider it a European carrier so that we all may go on in peace? You all have to agree Turkey is kind of unique in this regard. A lot of points have been made that make it a European carrier for the sake of this discussion or comparison.

Quoting debonair (Reply 45):
Back to topic...

I like that idea! Thanks!



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

Good point.
But just to go back to the off-topic discussion, SU is always regarded as a European airline on here, whereas technically Russia is mainly in Asia...



Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4849 times:
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20% of Azerbaijan is geographically in Europe so maybe we can even consider their flights to Istanbul which are at times operated by a B767-300.

User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

Ok, so i guess if the new Istanbul airport will be built on the Anatolian side and their headquarters as well as main operational/technical hub relocated there, you'll all agree of TK thus becoming an Asian/Middle-Eastern airline, right?

Furthermore, shall i conclude that you'll show no objection on PC being considered an Asian airline because they operate out of SAW(?), or everything Turkish based as far as Erzerum, Van or Sanliurfa HAS to be considered as part of Europe automatically? What's the rationale for that?

(By the way, do you recognize a single Turkish airline that is not "European" and list them for me, or are all your airlines "European" because they operate European-built (Airbus) a/c or something?
So i guess that makes PC an American airline actually cause they mostly operate Boeing LOL. I mean i'm just trying to find the rationale and this is the closest to sane-logic that i could find.)

I still haven't received a single hard argument from you as to why Turkey should be included into anything exclusively European, while in parallel denying any Asian/ME affiliation. The question is not whether it IS already but whether it s-h-o-u-l-d be, where the obsessive necessity comes from?







[Edited 2012-11-02 03:39:34]

User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4706 times:

Btw, TK is also the code for AnadoluJet, based at ESB and headquartered in Ankara, parent company of whose is Turkish Airlines.

But you'll also say they're an "European" airline cause they operate Airbus?


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4668 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 54):
The question is not whether it IS already but whether it s-h-o-u-l-d be, where the obsessive necessity comes from?

On this forum Turkish Airlines is considered a European airline because it is fully integrated within the European aviation scene. There is no more point in debating this and please stop taking this discussion off topic.


User currently offlineTK1244 From Netherlands, joined May 2007, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4662 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 54):
Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 55):

We understand your opinion now, can we please continue with the original discussion???

[Edited 2012-11-02 04:13:40]


"The future is in the skies. For any nation that cannot defend its skies will never be confident of its future." Atatürk
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4515 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 54):
Ok, so i guess if the new Istanbul airport will be built on the Anatolian side and their headquarters as well as main operational/technical hub relocated there, you'll all agree of TK thus becoming an Asian/Middle-Eastern airline, right?

Furthermore, shall i conclude that you'll show no objection on PC being considered an Asian airline because they operate out of SAW(?), or everything Turkish based as far as Erzerum, Van or Sanliurfa HAS to be considered as part of Europe automatically? What's the rationale for that?

(By the way, do you recognize a single Turkish airline that is not "European" and list them for me, or are all your airlines "European" because they operate European-built (Airbus) a/c or something?
So i guess that makes PC an American airline actually cause they mostly operate Boeing LOL. I mean i'm just trying to find the rationale and this is the closest to sane-logic that i could find.)

I still haven't received a single hard argument from you as to why Turkey should be included into anything exclusively European, while in parallel denying any Asian/ME affiliation. The question is not whether it IS already but whether it s-h-o-u-l-d be, where the obsessive necessity comes from?

For all intents and purposes, Turkish aviation is integrated into European aviation scheme. This also includes, as has been noted but you've failed to address, TK being a member of Association of European Airlines, not Association of Asian Airlines. Turkey is also a part of Eurocontrol. ICAO lists Turkey as part of Southern Europe region. IATA lists Turkish Airlines as part of European region. Against all this, we are supposed to discredit TK as a European airline because ?


User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1441 posts, RR: 8
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 47):
That's the national airline of a country whose capital and 95% of territory is located in Asia and whose historical/cultural heritage lies in the Middle-East (as much as they are trying to mimic Europe for the last century)

This is one of the reasons why I called your previous comments "hostile". Because obviously you have a problem with Turkey.

This thread has long gone off topic and is becoming very racist. I suggest that the thread should be locked. It is a topic that has been discussed many many times anyway. A quick search will bring up many results.



Coffee - Tea or Me?
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2651 posts, RR: 6
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4427 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 59):
This thread has long gone off topic and is becoming very racist. I suggest that the thread should be locked. It is a topic that has been discussed many many times anyway. A quick search will bring up many results.

I am sorry but I do not agree with you. Why should the topic be closed just because of one user? Also, yes, one can simply google the result for this but then the same can apply for 97% of other topics.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7573 posts, RR: 17
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4417 times:

Pity you choose to reply to threads that you have not read[properly.

You said:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 38):
Well TK is not an European airline anyway so there is really no space for arguing about anything of the type.

I replied

Quoting VV701 (Reply 46):
Lots of space.

You have now said

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 54):
Ok, so i guess if the new Istanbul airport will be built on the Anatolian side and their headquarters as well as main operational/technical hub relocated there, you'll all agree of TK thus becoming an Asian/Middle-Eastern airline, right?

Why should I? Where have I said that I think that Turkish Airlines is a European airline? Sure I have simply stated that Turkish Airlines is headquatered in continental Europe. Yes I have said that the Turkish Airlines main hub is in continental Europe. I did this because you were mistaken to say that "there is really no space for arguing about anything of the type". It is you who have interpreted my uncontestable facts to mean there is "space for arguing" that Turkish Airlines is a European airline. Thank you.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 55):
Btw, TK is also the code for AnadoluJet, based at ESB and headquartered in Ankara, parent company of whose is Turkish Airlines.

I am sorry you are getting confused over my use of the phrase "Turkish Airlines (TK) ". I had hoped it was absolutely clear that I was referring to neither Istanbul Airlines nor to the Turkish Airlines subsidiary, AnadoluJet. But apparently not.


User currently offlinen729pa From UK - England, joined Jan 2011, 415 posts, RR: 0
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4229 times:

Can we quit talking about the origins/status of Turkish Airlines - if you want to do that please go and start a new thread and let the rest of us get back to the ORIGINAL TOPIC and TITLE of this conversation that LY777 tried to start please!

Thank you.


BA use a 763 on some of the STO flights evening departure from ARL. The IB A340 to/from MAD to LHR disappears for a while in the New Year and then reappears as an A330 instead. Not sure of the dates though.

Of course we also have the BA A380 to look forward to as well and the well rumoured LHR-MAD flights.


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