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Economy Seating, Enjoying.  
User currently offlinerunzel From Australia, joined Dec 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

This year again I will fly in excess of 100K miles, and except for those few occasions when I am permitted/able to use earned upgrades, sitting in Y. Of course there's many of us in a similar situation. But I wonder if anyone else has come to the conclusion that economy seats that recline represent a negative effect on overall facility.

So far as I know, it matters not which airline one flies in economy. When the passenger in front reclines 'his' seat-back, the geometry of my seat-space is dramatically altered.

Without reclining 'my' seat-back, thereby inflicting similar punishment on the pax aft of me, I have insufficient room to hold a book or magazine to read, work/write on a small computer, enjoy a nibble and drink, and it is virtually impossible to use the gracious plastic cutlery in an attack on a meal tray, as too is evacuating the seat to gain access to useful things like lavatories.

Geography dictates that almost invariably the initial and ultimate sectors of my international journeys are by Saab340 or Dash8. After 14+ hours southbound across the Pacific early next week, I will relish the unassailable space of the fixed seats fitted to my domerstic puddle-jumper.

Question, and I ttrust that I am not tilling ploughed land, would we not be better off altogether if seats in economy on long-haul mainline aircraft too were fixed?

Trans-Atlantic on 01.Nov, I in 20A and my seat-companion in 20B had the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

I would admire having the thoughts of better and more experienced travellers if same would be so kind.

Thank you.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

In reply without use of the Queen's English:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
would we not be better off altogether if seats in economy on long-haul mainline aircraft too were fixed?

NO, NO, NO!

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
had the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

So? He paid his fare as you did and has the right to recline. Don't get precious with other pax...

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
I will relish the unassailable space of the fixed seats fitted to my domerstic puddle-jumper.

Super duper, me old pork chop. I wait in equally eager anticipation of your glowing trip report with lots & lots of pics please!


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4708 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
sitting in Y

Same here but on skyteam i've been getting upgrades once and a while.


Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
When the passenger in front reclines 'his' seat-back, the geometry of my seat-space is dramatically altered.

obviously.............

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
inflicting similar punishment on the pax aft of me

Yes you know that the one sat behind you will be punished so you don't do it, this is called respect.
At night its different, if everyone reclines.

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
seat etiquette.

If you can get a emergency exit row the seats in front do not recline, put if you're doing 100k you knew that.

Tips:

Once the seat in front reclines back forcing the ife monitor into your face, adjust the air vent above your head to full open full forward. You should see his/her hair start to move followed by him/her turning around to see what's happening. Loads of people will then tilt forward to get out of the blast.

When getting up be sure to grab the seat and shake it a bit, maybe an elbow to the head as well.

Sneeze and or cough so that see hair movement. People don't like it and will move forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.




Quoting trent1000 (Reply 1):
So? He paid his fare as you did and has the right to recline

What about my right to live in peace?

runzel,
Its all about respect and most people have vary little! I hope you sat in front of me on my next flight!


User currently offlinePDX88 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

Some newer seats slide the seat bottom forward as a passenger reclines, so the distance between your face and the top of the seat in front of you stays the same when the person in front of you feels like getting comfortable. It's actually self punishing, since you are sacrificing your own legroom to recline. I've been on several AA flights with these seats and love them.

User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 3):

Some newer seats slide the seat bottom forward as a passenger reclines

Yes, MEA has those installed on their A330s and newer A321s. They are a lot more comfortable.
At other times, I do not mind if somebody has to recline their seat to sleep but it makes it very difficult
when you're trying to eat. On MH once the flight attendants were telling people to put their seats in the upright
position during meal times which makes a difference.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1823 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

The worst is when they recline during meals, I have had a lot of spills when the seat moves, hot coffee is no fun. But a kid kicking you in the back for 10 hours is not that fun either. Or the old gasbag letting go of its treasures for 12 hours next to you..

Long haul is hell in many ways.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6293 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

I really haven't seen a problem over the past few years. Once in a while a person tries to recline the seat in from of me but since my legs are there it doesn't work. I had one fool try for 5 minutes before giving up but my legs are a lot stronger than his desire to recline.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 567 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
This year again I will fly in excess of 100K miles

predominantly in which class/es?

If you try United's "Economy Plus", you will be delighted at what little recline there is to interfere with you. It is certainly not an "in your face" experience.

Runzel, I think you're throwing a cat amongst the pigeons with this economy recline topic...


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1361 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
But I wonder if anyone else has come to the conclusion that economy seats that recline represent a negative effect on overall facility.

Given that recline function adds very little to the person using it, and takes away a lot from the people behind, yes I have to wonder why airlines cling to this moronic design.

I've flown many carriers that have done away with this nuisence, and what little is "given up" is more than worth what's gained. In one example, G4 not only has rid themselves of this problem, but they've selected seats that have the seat pocket up by the tray table. The result is a 29" seat pitch that's effectively better than any legacy's 31."

Scheduled carriers that adopt this can expect more business.

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):

Trans-Atlantic on 01.Nov, I in 20A and my seat-companion in 20B had the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

Unfortunate. I'm not a short guy myself, and have had more than a few occasions like this. One of my personal favorites was an individual who not only resisted all opportunities to behave rationally on the issue, but actually asked me if I'd mind moving my knee out of her seat back. "They wouldn't let me check it," I said to her, "so here it stays." I also mentioned that I would likely have to "adjust" it periodically, as her decision to recline was forcing me to decide which knee to assign this particular 15 minutes worth of suffering to.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
e forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.

Let's not forget that on long flights it's vitally important to ward off any possibility of DVT too. This means that getting up frequently to use the facilities, etc is recommended. And of course, since Cabin safety is paramount, let's not forget to use every available handhold, particularly the offending PAX seat in front of you, to help yourself up.  
Quoting trent1000 (Reply 7):

predominantly in which class/es?

Did you know that if you actually read the OP at the top of this page, Runzl there was quite very specific about all that. Go ahead, give it a look.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinetxjim From United States of America, joined May 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
Tips:

Once the seat in front reclines back forcing the ife monitor into your face, adjust the air vent above your head to full open full forward. You should see his/her hair start to move followed by him/her turning around to see what's happening. Loads of people will then tilt forward to get out of the blast.

When getting up be sure to grab the seat and shake it a bit, maybe an elbow to the head as well.

Sneeze and or cough so that see hair movement. People don't like it and will move forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.

Another tip: Everytime the person bends forward, push their seat up a degree or two. Repeat as required. Before long, you have your room and they don't know the difference.


User currently offlineYYZBound From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

Earlier this month my partner and I took Delta to Brussels...and I witnessed something remarkable. And very gracious.

During the meal service, the person sitting in front of me turned around, smiled and said, "I'll put my seat up so you can access your tray better  ". I thanked her profusely...and when the meal service was done I told her it was perfectly fine for her to recline back now...even if it 'robbed' me of my space. Made the flight considerably more enjoyable.

Flying economy is not an enjoyable experience for most, but people survive it day in and day out and have for many years. Some of the worst legroom I ever experienced was on airberlin longhaul back in September. And yet, I loved the flight and thought the experience was very pleasant...because after all, I was travelling to see Berlin!


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 559 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

http://www.gadgetduck.com/goods/kneedefender.html

I was sent this link, might work if you have someone who gives up easily.

Quoting txjim (Reply 9):
Another tip:

will try


I'm just over 6 foot tall btw


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2013 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

Surely if requested the cabin crew will ask people to put their seat up during meal times anyway. The majority of people do so anyway, as it's impossible to eat while reclined without spilling food everywhere!

It may cramp kneeroom (I'm over 6 ft myself) but the thought of a 12 hour flight without being able to recline my seat to try and get some sleep isn't an appealing one.



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlinenicoeddf From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1099 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

And you guys all write this crap about poking the guy in front of you while talking about respect in the same sentence?

User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4704 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

In my view the person in front of me has the right to recline their seat all the way. I have the right to recline my seat all the way, though if asked I will pull it up a bit.

A few years ago coach passengers were between a rock and hard place, because the next option was business class which is much more expensive. Nowadays, there is premium economy or most airlines have sections/seats with more legroom that can be selected for a fee.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5576 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4704 times:

Quoting YYZBound (Reply 10):
During the meal service, the person sitting in front of me turned around, smiled and said, "I'll put my seat up so you can access your tray better

As far as I'm concerned she shouldn't have been in a position to ask, the FA should have already instructed her. Asian and Middle Eastern airlines are very strict about making you put your seat upright for meal service, I consider it plain sloppy when I don't see European and US airlines do the same.


That said, other than meal service I honestly don't have a problem with people reclining. They payed for the seat, let them use it. I do, however, have a problem with people who don't let me recline mine. I have a right to recline, and am willing to enforce it.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days ago) and read 4706 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting incitatus (Reply 14):
In my view the person in front of me has the right to recline their seat all the way. I have the right to recline my seat all the way, though if asked I will pull it up a bit.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
They payed for the seat, let them use it. I do, however, have a problem with people who don't let me recline mine. I have a right to recline, and am willing to enforce it.
Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

Both parties are in the right here, it is about respect. But both parties need to compromise politely. I have lost count of the amount of arguments I have had to referee where either 1 or both pax in this situation behaved like a spoilt child.

All pax are entitled to recline i they desire, however if the person behind politely asks them a compromise of 50% recline can easily be achieved. Only yesterday I had an elderly male pax threaten the lady in front of him with discomfort if she tried to recline her seat.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days ago) and read 4708 times:

If I want to recline, I recline. Of course I don't just ram my seat back. I turn around, check that there's nothing in the way, and slowly recline my seat.

Likewise, I don't complain if people in front of my recline (besides during meal times). Sure it's more comfortable otherwise, but it's not the end of the world either.

There's no way I'd be sitting upright all the time during a night flight.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
Once the seat in front reclines back forcing the ife monitor into your face, adjust the air vent above your head to full open full forward. You should see his/her hair start to move followed by him/her turning around to see what's happening. Loads of people will then tilt forward to get out of the blast.

When getting up be sure to grab the seat and shake it a bit, maybe an elbow to the head as well.

Sneeze and or cough so that see hair movement. People don't like it and will move forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.

Well let's hope we'll never meet on a plane, because if you pull that stuff on me we'll be having a very serious conversation.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days ago) and read 4708 times:

It's this problem all but eliminated with new slimline seats where the seat bottom pivots forward while the seat back goes down? The degree in which your seat back reclines isn't as much as with slimline seats. In my experience, they are a much better alternative. For the person in the front and back.


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3261 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 6 days ago) and read 4706 times:

At a guess,everyone here knows what they are going to get,seat wise, before they walk through the cabin door.
Why complain about it, it is what it is and you paid for it. If you want something better, again pay for it.  



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

It is reasonable to expect that the passenger in front of you will have the decency to return his/her seat upright at least during meal service. There are some who just don't get it. Some flight attendants will often inform the reclined during the meal service, provided they are inclined to do so (sometimes the middle seats are not easily visible).

It seems a little unreasonable that the passenger in front of you would not oblige a reasonable request, but in the end, it is his/her choice (decency always is).

As for the person behind you, I applaud your respect for his/her space. A reasonable rule of thumb is- if the guy behind you is reclined, you should not feel bad about reclining as well. If you really feel guilty, there is no harm in asking. In the end, it is your choice.

Many carriers are introducing premium Y. DL, KL, UA simply offer the same seat, with more space. DL offers free premium channels (on the IFE) and cocktails. For DL Plat members (75000 miles per year gets you there) the upgrade is free. This upgrade is also extended to by KLM (who has pretty much the same product). UA offers more space, and that is pretty much it.

Airlines like AF, BA, VS have prem. Y which is generally not a free upgrade, but extra legroom seats (exit rows, etc) are often available to premium customers at no extra charge (as some airlines charge extra for 'choice' seats).

I am sure some of the others on this site could provide additional info on Premium Y products. I am sure, with your level of mileage, many airlines would be happy to get your loyalty. Bear in mind, some airlines program will offer full mileage credit on a flight which a partner airline would award only a portion (based on fare class). For example, DL (Skymiles) will offer full mileage on a KL flight, where KL (Flying Blue) will offer you 25% award on the same flight. just something to chew on.



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1718 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

Until the better seats are installed seats should not be reclined expect during night hours. I may start flying more if the airlines will do a minimum to ensure my comfort while flying in coach. Their call. My money.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinePagoFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

Since we're non-revs we Never put our seats back.

User currently onlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

I was flying ZRH-ORD in 2011. A women about 4 rows in front of me actually announced to the folks that we'd all be a lot happier of nobody reclined their seat. No one did and yes, it was significantly more comfortable for all of us.

Flying PHL-ZRH this summer my seat didn't recline. I suspect the gentleman behind me jammed something into the seat to prevent recline. It became a very long flight after the passenger in front of me reclined.


User currently offlineStarGuy From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

I would never ask someone not to use their seat recline function unless during takeoff, landing or a meal service.
I would also say that as long as the function is fitted and endorsed by the airline, it is completely unreasonable for people to suggest that it shouldn't be used, especially on long haul flights.

As an FA for an airline with flights as long as 13 hours, when facing a situation of two supposedly grown adults bickering over seat recline, I would (in the nicest possible way of course) enforce most airlines policy on the subject, seats have been designed to recline, upgrades to exit rows/Y /J/F are available if more space is needed.

If I ever saw that little knee defender gizmo being used to prevent a paying customer in-front from using the seat recline function, I would have to insist that it be removed immediately. I would then also inform all other crew to make sure that It wasn't used again and all details would be added to our official flight documentation for future reference if any complaints were made. It may at first glance seem like a nifty little device, but to the person who's seat can not recline, complaints would follow under the assumption that the recline function was broken, compensation of sorts would ultimately have to be offered, all because of one person deciding to tamper with the recline function


25 Post contains images N62NA : Here's a trick: If you have one of those air vents above the seat, turn it on full blast and direct it at the passenger ahead. They'll get tired of th
26 Viscount724 : Y class seats rarely can be reclined very far. I haven't found it to be much of a problem. Newer seats are also now being installed so when fully upri
27 brilondon : Not if the flight is an over night flight and I want to recline my seat. I don't think that is a solution at all. So, you don't fly much? I don't see
28 Post contains images aloges : Yeah, definitely do that! I'm sure the F/As will love having to stop even more fist fights over this kind of bullshit. And no, I'm not making it up,
29 Post contains images Quokkas : It is fortunate that your cabins fly empty just for that eventuality. Seriously though, it is not always possible to upgrade on all flights. On popul
30 mad99 : well said. but this is what you get
31 aloges : It is what you get for pestering and bullying your fellow passengers.
32 Darksnowynight : I realize that may be fun for you, but what you just described is (in the United States and many other jurisdictions) a Second (or First circumstance
33 CXB77L : You're not alone. I was quite a fan of CX's previous generation fixed shell economy seats, for the simple reason that they do not "recline" in the tr
34 aloges : far from it: I simply think that by following mad99's so-called is the start of the problem, not someone's understandably annoyed reaction to it.
35 Darksnowynight : If that's the case, than this turns into a chicken v egg debate. At that point, you can choose any point you want to say where the "problem" starts.
36 aloges : How so? One party uses the seat as intended by the airline that offers it. The other party plays games to stop that out of selfishness. It's not a ch
37 Darksnowynight : Alrighty, hang on there. First, the airline does not intend for one to "slam" a seat back onto someone else. Just as an aside, FA's do have the abili
38 PITingres : No, I've been in non-reclining seats, and it can be pure misery. *but* ... I find that I don't usually need more than an inch or so of recline to be
39 aloges : Nobody said it did. The intended use of the reclining seat is, well, reclining it. That's all I meant. I'm 1.91m, which should be just a tad over 6'3
40 n729pa : I have to agree it is I find a nuisance sometimes, but what else can do realistically. You're travelling with other fare paying passengers. As a priva
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