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Economy Seating, Enjoying.  
User currently offlinerunzel From Australia, joined Dec 2011, 26 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4733 times:

This year again I will fly in excess of 100K miles, and except for those few occasions when I am permitted/able to use earned upgrades, sitting in Y. Of course there's many of us in a similar situation. But I wonder if anyone else has come to the conclusion that economy seats that recline represent a negative effect on overall facility.

So far as I know, it matters not which airline one flies in economy. When the passenger in front reclines 'his' seat-back, the geometry of my seat-space is dramatically altered.

Without reclining 'my' seat-back, thereby inflicting similar punishment on the pax aft of me, I have insufficient room to hold a book or magazine to read, work/write on a small computer, enjoy a nibble and drink, and it is virtually impossible to use the gracious plastic cutlery in an attack on a meal tray, as too is evacuating the seat to gain access to useful things like lavatories.

Geography dictates that almost invariably the initial and ultimate sectors of my international journeys are by Saab340 or Dash8. After 14+ hours southbound across the Pacific early next week, I will relish the unassailable space of the fixed seats fitted to my domerstic puddle-jumper.

Question, and I ttrust that I am not tilling ploughed land, would we not be better off altogether if seats in economy on long-haul mainline aircraft too were fixed?

Trans-Atlantic on 01.Nov, I in 20A and my seat-companion in 20B had the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

I would admire having the thoughts of better and more experienced travellers if same would be so kind.

Thank you.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 573 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

In reply without use of the Queen's English:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
would we not be better off altogether if seats in economy on long-haul mainline aircraft too were fixed?

NO, NO, NO!

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
had the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

So? He paid his fare as you did and has the right to recline. Don't get precious with other pax...

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
I will relish the unassailable space of the fixed seats fitted to my domerstic puddle-jumper.

Super duper, me old pork chop. I wait in equally eager anticipation of your glowing trip report with lots & lots of pics please!


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
sitting in Y

Same here but on skyteam i've been getting upgrades once and a while.


Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
When the passenger in front reclines 'his' seat-back, the geometry of my seat-space is dramatically altered.

obviously.............

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
inflicting similar punishment on the pax aft of me

Yes you know that the one sat behind you will be punished so you don't do it, this is called respect.
At night its different, if everyone reclines.

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
seat etiquette.

If you can get a emergency exit row the seats in front do not recline, put if you're doing 100k you knew that.

Tips:

Once the seat in front reclines back forcing the ife monitor into your face, adjust the air vent above your head to full open full forward. You should see his/her hair start to move followed by him/her turning around to see what's happening. Loads of people will then tilt forward to get out of the blast.

When getting up be sure to grab the seat and shake it a bit, maybe an elbow to the head as well.

Sneeze and or cough so that see hair movement. People don't like it and will move forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.




Quoting trent1000 (Reply 1):
So? He paid his fare as you did and has the right to recline

What about my right to live in peace?

runzel,
Its all about respect and most people have vary little! I hope you sat in front of me on my next flight!


User currently offlinePDX88 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Some newer seats slide the seat bottom forward as a passenger reclines, so the distance between your face and the top of the seat in front of you stays the same when the person in front of you feels like getting comfortable. It's actually self punishing, since you are sacrificing your own legroom to recline. I've been on several AA flights with these seats and love them.

User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1717 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

Quoting PDX88 (Reply 3):

Some newer seats slide the seat bottom forward as a passenger reclines

Yes, MEA has those installed on their A330s and newer A321s. They are a lot more comfortable.
At other times, I do not mind if somebody has to recline their seat to sleep but it makes it very difficult
when you're trying to eat. On MH once the flight attendants were telling people to put their seats in the upright
position during meal times which makes a difference.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4739 times:

The worst is when they recline during meals, I have had a lot of spills when the seat moves, hot coffee is no fun. But a kid kicking you in the back for 10 hours is not that fun either. Or the old gasbag letting go of its treasures for 12 hours next to you..

Long haul is hell in many ways.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6309 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

I really haven't seen a problem over the past few years. Once in a while a person tries to recline the seat in from of me but since my legs are there it doesn't work. I had one fool try for 5 minutes before giving up but my legs are a lot stronger than his desire to recline.


Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlinetrent1000 From Japan, joined Jan 2007, 573 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
This year again I will fly in excess of 100K miles

predominantly in which class/es?

If you try United's "Economy Plus", you will be delighted at what little recline there is to interfere with you. It is certainly not an "in your face" experience.

Runzel, I think you're throwing a cat amongst the pigeons with this economy recline topic...


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1380 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
But I wonder if anyone else has come to the conclusion that economy seats that recline represent a negative effect on overall facility.

Given that recline function adds very little to the person using it, and takes away a lot from the people behind, yes I have to wonder why airlines cling to this moronic design.

I've flown many carriers that have done away with this nuisence, and what little is "given up" is more than worth what's gained. In one example, G4 not only has rid themselves of this problem, but they've selected seats that have the seat pocket up by the tray table. The result is a 29" seat pitch that's effectively better than any legacy's 31."

Scheduled carriers that adopt this can expect more business.

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):

Trans-Atlantic on 01.Nov, I in 20A and my seat-companion in 20B had the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

Unfortunate. I'm not a short guy myself, and have had more than a few occasions like this. One of my personal favorites was an individual who not only resisted all opportunities to behave rationally on the issue, but actually asked me if I'd mind moving my knee out of her seat back. "They wouldn't let me check it," I said to her, "so here it stays." I also mentioned that I would likely have to "adjust" it periodically, as her decision to recline was forcing me to decide which knee to assign this particular 15 minutes worth of suffering to.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
e forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.

Let's not forget that on long flights it's vitally important to ward off any possibility of DVT too. This means that getting up frequently to use the facilities, etc is recommended. And of course, since Cabin safety is paramount, let's not forget to use every available handhold, particularly the offending PAX seat in front of you, to help yourself up.  
Quoting trent1000 (Reply 7):

predominantly in which class/es?

Did you know that if you actually read the OP at the top of this page, Runzl there was quite very specific about all that. Go ahead, give it a look.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinetxjim From United States of America, joined May 2008, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
Tips:

Once the seat in front reclines back forcing the ife monitor into your face, adjust the air vent above your head to full open full forward. You should see his/her hair start to move followed by him/her turning around to see what's happening. Loads of people will then tilt forward to get out of the blast.

When getting up be sure to grab the seat and shake it a bit, maybe an elbow to the head as well.

Sneeze and or cough so that see hair movement. People don't like it and will move forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.

Another tip: Everytime the person bends forward, push their seat up a degree or two. Repeat as required. Before long, you have your room and they don't know the difference.


User currently offlineYYZBound From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Earlier this month my partner and I took Delta to Brussels...and I witnessed something remarkable. And very gracious.

During the meal service, the person sitting in front of me turned around, smiled and said, "I'll put my seat up so you can access your tray better  ". I thanked her profusely...and when the meal service was done I told her it was perfectly fine for her to recline back now...even if it 'robbed' me of my space. Made the flight considerably more enjoyable.

Flying economy is not an enjoyable experience for most, but people survive it day in and day out and have for many years. Some of the worst legroom I ever experienced was on airberlin longhaul back in September. And yet, I loved the flight and thought the experience was very pleasant...because after all, I was travelling to see Berlin!


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

http://www.gadgetduck.com/goods/kneedefender.html

I was sent this link, might work if you have someone who gives up easily.

Quoting txjim (Reply 9):
Another tip:

will try


I'm just over 6 foot tall btw


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2016 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Surely if requested the cabin crew will ask people to put their seat up during meal times anyway. The majority of people do so anyway, as it's impossible to eat while reclined without spilling food everywhere!

It may cramp kneeroom (I'm over 6 ft myself) but the thought of a 12 hour flight without being able to recline my seat to try and get some sleep isn't an appealing one.



it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offlinenicoeddf From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1101 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

And you guys all write this crap about poking the guy in front of you while talking about respect in the same sentence?

User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4034 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

In my view the person in front of me has the right to recline their seat all the way. I have the right to recline my seat all the way, though if asked I will pull it up a bit.

A few years ago coach passengers were between a rock and hard place, because the next option was business class which is much more expensive. Nowadays, there is premium economy or most airlines have sections/seats with more legroom that can be selected for a fee.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5766 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4738 times:

Quoting YYZBound (Reply 10):
During the meal service, the person sitting in front of me turned around, smiled and said, "I'll put my seat up so you can access your tray better

As far as I'm concerned she shouldn't have been in a position to ask, the FA should have already instructed her. Asian and Middle Eastern airlines are very strict about making you put your seat upright for meal service, I consider it plain sloppy when I don't see European and US airlines do the same.


That said, other than meal service I honestly don't have a problem with people reclining. They payed for the seat, let them use it. I do, however, have a problem with people who don't let me recline mine. I have a right to recline, and am willing to enforce it.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineEagleBoy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1853 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4740 times:
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Quoting incitatus (Reply 14):
In my view the person in front of me has the right to recline their seat all the way. I have the right to recline my seat all the way, though if asked I will pull it up a bit.
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
They payed for the seat, let them use it. I do, however, have a problem with people who don't let me recline mine. I have a right to recline, and am willing to enforce it.
Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
the pleasure of the company of gentlemen immediately forward of us, who refused all requests for even the smallest modicum of seat etiquette.

Both parties are in the right here, it is about respect. But both parties need to compromise politely. I have lost count of the amount of arguments I have had to referee where either 1 or both pax in this situation behaved like a spoilt child.

All pax are entitled to recline i they desire, however if the person behind politely asks them a compromise of 50% recline can easily be achieved. Only yesterday I had an elderly male pax threaten the lady in front of him with discomfort if she tried to recline her seat.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2123 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

If I want to recline, I recline. Of course I don't just ram my seat back. I turn around, check that there's nothing in the way, and slowly recline my seat.

Likewise, I don't complain if people in front of my recline (besides during meal times). Sure it's more comfortable otherwise, but it's not the end of the world either.

There's no way I'd be sitting upright all the time during a night flight.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
Once the seat in front reclines back forcing the ife monitor into your face, adjust the air vent above your head to full open full forward. You should see his/her hair start to move followed by him/her turning around to see what's happening. Loads of people will then tilt forward to get out of the blast.

When getting up be sure to grab the seat and shake it a bit, maybe an elbow to the head as well.

Sneeze and or cough so that see hair movement. People don't like it and will move forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.

Well let's hope we'll never meet on a plane, because if you pull that stuff on me we'll be having a very serious conversation.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

It's this problem all but eliminated with new slimline seats where the seat bottom pivots forward while the seat back goes down? The degree in which your seat back reclines isn't as much as with slimline seats. In my experience, they are a much better alternative. For the person in the front and back.


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3324 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4740 times:

At a guess,everyone here knows what they are going to get,seat wise, before they walk through the cabin door.
Why complain about it, it is what it is and you paid for it. If you want something better, again pay for it.  



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

It is reasonable to expect that the passenger in front of you will have the decency to return his/her seat upright at least during meal service. There are some who just don't get it. Some flight attendants will often inform the reclined during the meal service, provided they are inclined to do so (sometimes the middle seats are not easily visible).

It seems a little unreasonable that the passenger in front of you would not oblige a reasonable request, but in the end, it is his/her choice (decency always is).

As for the person behind you, I applaud your respect for his/her space. A reasonable rule of thumb is- if the guy behind you is reclined, you should not feel bad about reclining as well. If you really feel guilty, there is no harm in asking. In the end, it is your choice.

Many carriers are introducing premium Y. DL, KL, UA simply offer the same seat, with more space. DL offers free premium channels (on the IFE) and cocktails. For DL Plat members (75000 miles per year gets you there) the upgrade is free. This upgrade is also extended to by KLM (who has pretty much the same product). UA offers more space, and that is pretty much it.

Airlines like AF, BA, VS have prem. Y which is generally not a free upgrade, but extra legroom seats (exit rows, etc) are often available to premium customers at no extra charge (as some airlines charge extra for 'choice' seats).

I am sure some of the others on this site could provide additional info on Premium Y products. I am sure, with your level of mileage, many airlines would be happy to get your loyalty. Bear in mind, some airlines program will offer full mileage credit on a flight which a partner airline would award only a portion (based on fare class). For example, DL (Skymiles) will offer full mileage on a KL flight, where KL (Flying Blue) will offer you 25% award on the same flight. just something to chew on.



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1731 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Until the better seats are installed seats should not be reclined expect during night hours. I may start flying more if the airlines will do a minimum to ensure my comfort while flying in coach. Their call. My money.


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinePagoFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 4734 times:

Since we're non-revs we Never put our seats back.

User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 822 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4734 times:

I was flying ZRH-ORD in 2011. A women about 4 rows in front of me actually announced to the folks that we'd all be a lot happier of nobody reclined their seat. No one did and yes, it was significantly more comfortable for all of us.

Flying PHL-ZRH this summer my seat didn't recline. I suspect the gentleman behind me jammed something into the seat to prevent recline. It became a very long flight after the passenger in front of me reclined.


User currently offlineStarGuy From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4733 times:

I would never ask someone not to use their seat recline function unless during takeoff, landing or a meal service.
I would also say that as long as the function is fitted and endorsed by the airline, it is completely unreasonable for people to suggest that it shouldn't be used, especially on long haul flights.

As an FA for an airline with flights as long as 13 hours, when facing a situation of two supposedly grown adults bickering over seat recline, I would (in the nicest possible way of course) enforce most airlines policy on the subject, seats have been designed to recline, upgrades to exit rows/Y /J/F are available if more space is needed.

If I ever saw that little knee defender gizmo being used to prevent a paying customer in-front from using the seat recline function, I would have to insist that it be removed immediately. I would then also inform all other crew to make sure that It wasn't used again and all details would be added to our official flight documentation for future reference if any complaints were made. It may at first glance seem like a nifty little device, but to the person who's seat can not recline, complaints would follow under the assumption that the recline function was broken, compensation of sorts would ultimately have to be offered, all because of one person deciding to tamper with the recline function


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4528 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4810 times:

Here's a trick:

If you have one of those air vents above the seat, turn it on full blast and direct it at the passenger ahead. They'll get tired of the draft and move the seat forward!  

When I'm in economy, I usually opt for the LAST seat in the cabin, as I don't like people (and kids!) kicking the back of my seat the whole flight!


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25696 posts, RR: 22
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4799 times:

Y class seats rarely can be reclined very far. I haven't found it to be much of a problem. Newer seats are also now being installed so when fully upright they are at a comfortable angle. With those seats I rarely have any need to use even the limited recline available. For example, on KLM 737s, I almost never touch the recline button.

User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
Question, and I ttrust that I am not tilling ploughed land, would we not be better off altogether if seats in economy on long-haul mainline aircraft too were fixed?

Not if the flight is an over night flight and I want to recline my seat. I don't think that is a solution at all.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
What about my right to live in peace?

So, you don't fly much? I don't see why it is such a big deal. I like to put my seat back as far as it goes and during meal times, I do move it up in to the upright position. But when I am finished, look out behind me I am coming back. Mind you I rarely fly economy any more so you won't have the pleasure of having me sit in front of you.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
Once the seat in front reclines back forcing the ife monitor into your face, adjust the air vent above your head to full open full forward. You should see his/her hair start to move followed by him/her turning around to see what's happening. Loads of people will then tilt forward to get out of the blast.

When getting up be sure to grab the seat and shake it a bit, maybe an elbow to the head as well.

Sneeze and or cough so that see hair movement. People don't like it and will move forward.

Grab a magazine and make sure that the edge rubs the offending head in an uncomfortable way, try and get a bit of hair between the pages and firmly close the mag and put it away.


Yeah go ahead and try those. If I was in front of you, those stupid little vents don't blow with any force, plus I would put my seat up and then RAM it BACK!! Hope you have a nice trip.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4807 times:

Quoting txjim (Reply 9):
Another tip: Everytime the person bends forward, push their seat up a degree or two. Repeat as required. Before long, you have your room and they don't know the difference.

Yeah, definitely do that!    I'm sure the F/As will love having to stop even more fist fights over this kind of bullshit. And no, I'm not making it up, I've actually seen it happen - had the crew arrived five seconds later, punches would already have been flying.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 13):
And you guys all write this crap about poking the guy in front of you while talking about respect in the same sentence?

Boggles the mind, doesn't it?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4805 times:

Quoting StarGuy (Reply 24):
upgrades to exit rows/Y /J/F are available if more space is needed.

It is fortunate that your cabins fly empty just for that eventuality.   Seriously though, it is not always possible to upgrade on all flights. On popular routes business class can be booked out months ahead so you can't even buy a seat, let alone upgrade using miles or smiles. Nor does every airline offer Y+.

But the real concern is not so much that people recline. It is the lack of consideration. Just because the cabin crew has removed your meal tray, it doesn't mean that the person behind you has had their tray removed or that they have finished the drinks. As the meal carts only hold a limited number of trays there is often a delay.

It costs nothing to turn round and check or warn the person behind you. After all, even when it isn't meals times, that person may use the table to support a notebook or laptop. Your right to recline does not include the right to damage other people's property.

Basic courtesy is all that is required but, in this "me first" world, I guess for some people that is too much.

Perhaps O'Leary's idea of standing room only isn't such a bad idea.   


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 29):
Basic courtesy is all that is required but, in this "me first" world, I guess for some people that is too much.

well said.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 27):
RAM it BACK!! Hope you have a nice trip.

but this is what you get


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4798 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 30):
but this is what you get

It is what you get for pestering and bullying your fellow passengers.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1380 posts, RR: 3
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 27):

Yeah go ahead and try those. If I was in front of you, those stupid little vents don't blow with any force, plus I would put my seat up and then RAM it BACK!! Hope you have a nice trip.

I realize that may be fun for you, but what you just described is (in the United States and many other jurisdictions) a Second (or First circumstances depending) Degree Assault. If properly reported, you can be arrested, fined and jailed for that one. Some DA's may attach Battery charges to that as well. It's really not a joke when you bring personal injury into an equation, especially in a situation as thoroughly devoid of provocation as you describe.

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):
Quoting mad99 (Reply 30):
but this is what you get

It is what you get for pestering and bullying your fellow passengers.

So what then, you're advocating the escalation of a situation involving air rage? That's really not a very good idea.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2647 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4801 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
But I wonder if anyone else has come to the conclusion that economy seats that recline represent a negative effect on overall facility.

You're not alone. I was quite a fan of CX's previous generation fixed shell economy seats, for the simple reason that they do not "recline" in the traditional sense, but rather the seat base slides forward, so the person who reclines takes away their own legroom. I think that's a good thing.

In a traditional reclining seat, the person that reclines adds to their own comfort at the expense of others. I have no issue with people adding to their own comfort, but not at the expense of others. I'm disappointed that fixed shell seats aren't more common ...



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 32):
So what then, you're advocating the escalation of a situation involving air rage? That's really not a very good idea.

far from it:

Quoting aloges (Reply 28):
I'm sure the F/As will love having to stop even more fist fights over this kind of bullshit.

I simply think that

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):
pestering and bullying your fellow passengers

by following mad99's so-called

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
Tips

is the start of the problem, not someone's understandably annoyed reaction to it.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1380 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4774 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
I simply think that

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):
pestering and bullying your fellow passengers

by following mad99's so-called

Quoting mad99 (Reply 2):
Tips

is the start of the problem, not someone's understandably annoyed reaction to it.

If that's the case, than this turns into a chicken v egg debate. At that point, you can choose any point you want to say where the "problem" starts. As well, understandable or otherwise, slamming a seat back onto someone's kneecaps is no better than the tips you mention. The only difference is that the law would be indifferent to one, but sanction against the other.

I think the best way round that is to simply take away the recline option. It really doesn't offer much anyway, but it does provide fuel for air rage issues. In fact, having worked in aviation as long as I have, I'm actually surprised, now that I think of it, that the FAA still allows that for seats below a certain pitch, given all the other safety issues they get involved with.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4768 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 35):
If that's the case, than this turns into a chicken v egg debate. At that point, you can choose any point you want to say where the "problem" starts.

How so? One party uses the seat as intended by the airline that offers it. The other party plays games to stop that out of selfishness. It's not a chicken v egg debate, but egg v omelette.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 35):
As well, understandable or otherwise, slamming a seat back onto someone's kneecaps is no better than the tips you mention.

A) When did anyone say anything about kneecaps?
B) Slamming the seat back is the equivalent of the omelette. If you don't bring eggs, nobody will cook the omelette.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 35):
I think the best way round that is to simply take away the recline option.

You may think that. Millions of people disagree. I had one experience with a fixed seatback almost twelve years ago, but I still do everything to avoid ending up in another one. It was that painful.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 35):
It really doesn't offer much anyway

It offers a much-needed modicum of mobility to the otherwise immobile backs of aircraft passengers. Every little bit helps.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 35):
but it does provide fuel for air rage issues.

What makes you believe that the back pain which millions of passengers would have to endure in the absence of reclining seats would cause less air rage?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1380 posts, RR: 3
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4770 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 36):

How so? One party uses the seat as intended by the airline that offers it. The other party plays games to stop that out of selfishness.

Alrighty, hang on there. First, the airline does not intend for one to "slam" a seat back onto someone else. Just as an aside, FA's do have the ability to tell you to put it up if it's interfering with the mobility of, or causing harm the person seated behind you.

Also, we don't get to call it playing games for the instances you mention, but not so for "slamming" a seat onto someone else. They are either both bad or not, but we don't get to cut the difference.

Quoting aloges (Reply 36):

A) When did anyone say anything about kneecaps?

I did. If you're 6'3, that's the part of you that gets squished when someone rolls their seat back onto you. Do you really believe that's any better than back pain? Kneecaps are load-bearing structures too.

Quoting aloges (Reply 36):

It offers a much-needed modicum of mobility to the otherwise immobile backs of aircraft passengers. Every little bit helps.

Ok, but I can say the same about pitch too. You say that helps, but really it doesn't. It's just, as engineers like to say, moving the same problem elsewhere.

Quoting aloges (Reply 36):

What makes you believe that the back pain which millions of passengers would have to endure in the absence of reclining seats would cause less air rage?

The tie-breaker there is that people with chronic back pain will have it regardless. By shoving their pain elsewhere, they're creating an issue that otherwise wouldn't be there.

Anyway, I'm reasonably sure there are millions of others that feel the opposite too. And in all reality, millions yet more who are indifferent. I really do think the only option is to take away the issue altogether. Airlines want to deal PAX hostility issues even less than we do. Done right, and everybody wins.

I don't know what back issues you have. But I have flown in many Y seats that do not recline, and in my experience, the difference rounds to zero. Therefore, I do not pretend that will do anything for you, but I don't see how it makes things worse. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with all that, but my times on G4 & NK really weren't that bad (better than I was expecting; that's for sure.)



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently onlinePITingres From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1150 posts, RR: 13
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting runzel (Thread starter):
would we not be better off altogether if seats in economy on long-haul mainline aircraft too were fixed?

No, I've been in non-reclining seats, and it can be pure misery.

*but* ... I find that I don't usually need more than an inch or so of recline to be comfortable. If Y seats were limited to about half the current travel I think it would probably help considerably, without seriously impacting comfort.

In any case, if the person in front of me slams the seat back when I'm trying to work or eat, I find that a reasonably courteous tap on the shoulder and "would you mind please raising your seat just an inch" almost always does the trick. I can count on one hand the times the in-front passenger has been a jerk about it. (and for those cases, there's the gasper swivel, the knees in the seat-back, etc.)



Fly, you fools! Fly!
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
First, the airline does not intend for one to "slam" a seat back onto someone else.

Nobody said it did. The intended use of the reclining seat is, well, reclining it. That's all I meant.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
If you're 6'3,

I'm 1.91m, which should be just a tad over 6'3. So I am grateful for every single bit of legroom.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
that's the part of you that gets squished when someone rolls their seat back onto you.

That only happens when both myself and the person in front of me are inattentive. He/she can recline the seat slowly and I can make sure that my kneecaps are in a position where they won't be hurt as soon as the seatback in front of me starts moving. Usually, both happen, and my kneecaps have so far escaped without injuries.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
Do you really believe that's any better than back pain?

No, but I wasn't talking about the few people who are (at least) as tall as me. We're used to dealing with spaces and furniture that are too small, doors and mirrors that are too low and squeezing into seats that are thrones to other people. Those other people can shift around easily in those spaces, with or without e.g. a reclining seatback, but to us those few degrees of recline are a major part of the mobility that we can achieve. Since the amplitude of the recline is largest in the empty space far above my knees, the overall benefit of the recline is greater than the inconvenience.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
Kneecaps are load-bearing structures too.

They're sesamoid bones, so their function is quite different from that of e.g. a femur. Obviously, that doesn't mean they're irrelevant.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 37):
my times on G4 & NK really weren't that bad (better than I was expecting; that's for sure.)

I think I've found the reason for our disagreement: I don't disagree that a non-reclining seat can be bearable on short-haul routes, perhaps even medium-haul if it's a relatively good one.
But long-haul? Never! That's where I spend most of my time in the air.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinen729pa From UK - England, joined Jan 2011, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4504 times:

I have to agree it is I find a nuisance sometimes, but what else can do realistically. You're travelling with other fare paying passengers. As a private traveller I can't afford Business or PY so have to make do. I actually rarely recline my seat even on the flights because I feel I'm doing to someone else what I don't like someone doing to me. Even on flights UK-Australia, I very often don't bother to recline, I'd far rather a comfortable seat over one that reclines. But at least Qantas make every passenger put their seats up at meal times, which is important I think.

I'd far rather a reclined seat in front, than fighting for armrests with someone sat alongside. That can be more uncomfortable.


I'm quite a quiet easy going passenger believe it or not, leave me alone and I'm happy, I'm not demanding on the crew's service or team, just don't start kicking my seat or have 8ft giants who seem to want to put their knee in my back, because I will put up with it for only so long.


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