VC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2431 posts, RR: 9 Posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 5157 times:
On a recent Lufthansa flight from Munich to Sao Paulo I was in Business Class. I was on an A340-600. The angled lie flat Lufthansa seat was so horrible it defies everything Lufthansa stands for. Yes, I know LH has a new true lie flat and I get the fact that for an airline that large, it will take a while to refit the fleet. But until they do, their slogan "there's no better way to fly" should be shelved! In fact their other airline Swiss, is a far better way to fly. I know TAM and AA are planning on a new true flat seat...and for the moment I can't recall another major with angled seats. (?) TAP?
Question is by what year, do you think will we pay extraordinary prices for international business class and be sure we won't have to sleep sliding down to the footrest? And what are the hurdles for a faster conversion?
Thanks
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
qf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2558 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 5088 times:
AF/KL still fly with angled seats in every aircraft, and are yet to announce or commence any sort of upgrade programme.
QF still has a decent number of aircraft with angled seats -- the entire international A330 fleet and about half of their 744s (though these planes will be retired over the next couple of years).
SQ still has a dozen long haul aircraft with angled seats, though these are being fitted with the new product over the next year or so.
EK has angled seats on the vast, vast majority of their fleet (every 777 and the A345s). There don't appear to be any plans to update the product on aircraft aside from the A380, so they probably won't start moving to fully flats across the fleet until the next wave of new generation aircraft starts arriving.
JL is only just getting started with fully flats, and is due to fly the first 77W fitted with the new product early next year.
TG has only recently started flying fully flats in the last few months (on the A380 and newest 77Ws).
LA has only recently started flying fully flats with their first 787.
DL's A330s are still flying with angled seats.
There will be more, and then there are all the slightly less major airlines (and I can think of at least a dozen off the top of my head)...
An airline like LX has a far smaller fleet, which makes upgrading aircraft far easier and quicker. I think that's the biggest hurdle. Things can be sped up if the airline is willing to throw money at the project, and can afford to have multiple aircraft undergoing refurbishments at the same time (ie look at the pace of DLs recent 744 refits), but I doubt the cost is often justified.
It's easy to forget how rapidly J class has innovated over the past 10-15 years. These are expensive projects to undertake, and most airlines really can't afford to refit their fleet every 3-4 years to keep up to date with the latest IFE, seating trends etc.
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8272 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 5022 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 2): LA has only recently started flying fully flats with their first 787.
Incorrect. LAN's new Premium Business class was introduced in June when LAN took delivery of a brand new B-767-316ER. This year, LAN has received 9 brand new B-767-316ERs with the new Premium Business class; as well as three B-787s.
qf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2558 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (5 months 5 days ago) and read 4936 times:
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 4): Incorrect. LAN's new Premium Business class was introduced in June when LAN took delivery of a brand new B-767-316ER. This year, LAN has received 9 brand new B-767-316ERs with the new Premium Business class; as well as three B-787s.
Apologies. It's still a very recent introduction though, and the A340 fleet won't be updated.
qf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2558 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4706 times:
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6): Why would LAN update the A-340 fleet when one A-340 has already been phased out and two more A-340s will leave the fleet next year?
I never said they should -- it would be a massive waste of money given that all of these aircraft will be gone once the 789s start arriving in 3-4 years and that the market they are and will be used in through to retirement is hardly a competitive one.
I was simply making the point that they will still be flying with angled beds for at least a few more years (and on one of their longest routes which flies overnight in both directions), even despite the recent surge in aircraft.
joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4655 times:
Quoting VC10er (Thread starter): and for the moment I can't recall another major with angled seats.
Many (major) airlines still have angled lie-flat or other non-flat bed business seats.
In Europe:
Airlines with flat beds in J across the long-haul fleet:
BA, VS, LX, IB (?)
Airlines with a selected number of full flat beds in their long-haul fleet:
LH (748), AY (new 333s), SN (refitting now), OS (refitting now), AZ (332s), LO (787s)
Airlines without full-flat seats in J:
Europe: AF, KL (refitting starts 2013), EI, SK, TP,
Quoting qf002 (Reply 2): AF/KL still fly with angled seats in every aircraft, and are yet to announce or commence any sort of upgrade programme
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8272 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (5 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4655 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 7): I never said they should -- it would be a massive waste of money given that all of these aircraft will be gone once the 789s start arriving in 3-4 years and that the market they are and will be used in through to retirement is hardly a competitive one.
LAN will only have two A-340s in the fleet by the end of 2013 in order to operate the SCL-AKL-SYD route. The last two A-340s will be retired during 2014; then LAN will deploy the 787-9s on the route. Also, it should be noted that LAN's older Premium Business class features fully flat seats that may be lowered to a 100% horizontal position into a bed 23 inches wide by 73 inches long. This includes seats in the Premium Business class cabin on the A-340s.
Rafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (5 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4453 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 5): Apologies. It's still a very recent introduction though, and the A340 fleet won't be updated.
Incorrect again. LAN has had full flat HORIZONTAL beds for a while now. Their whole fleet of 767s AND A340s has full flat forward facing seats. I myself experienced it two years ago. Great product BTW.
SCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8272 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (5 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4402 times:
Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 10): Quoting qf002 (Reply 5):
Apologies. It's still a very recent introduction though, and the A340 fleet won't be updated.
Incorrect again. LAN has had full flat HORIZONTAL beds for a while now. Their whole fleet of 767s AND A340s has full flat forward facing seats. I myself experienced it two years ago. Great product BTW.
Indeed, LAN's entire fleet of widebody a/c features fully flat seats in the Premium Business class cabin, which LAN introduced years ago.
Quote: LAN Business Class is focused on passenger care and relaxation which feature the following offerings: 100% horizontal full flat seats; a memory system that remembers the seat position selected by the user, lumbar massage and dividing panels between seats for greater privacy; a menu designed by a panel of top chefs from the region; a wine list selected by Latin America's only Master Sommelier America, rest accessories made from material that is lightweight and soft, among other services.
330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 505 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (5 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4091 times:
Quoting joost (Reply 8):
Airlines with a selected number of full flat beds in their long-haul fleet:
LH (748), AY (new 333s), SN (refitting now), OS (refitting now), AZ (332s), LO (787s)
LH has the new C also on some new 333 operating out of MUC, if I'm right.
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
zeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, RR: 73 Reply 14, posted (5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3355 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 2): SQ still has a dozen long haul aircraft with angled seats, though these are being fitted with the new product over the next year or so.
SQ is actually expanding the number of aircraft with the angled seats, that is their new medium haul product
airbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 6890 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3145 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 2): AF/KL still fly with angled seats in every aircraft, and are yet to announce or commence any sort of upgrade programme.
I recently flew BOS-CDG-BLR-CDG-BOS on AF, in J. The BOS-CDG legs were on the 744. The CDG-BLR legs were on the A332. Both planes had angled lie-flat seats but the similarities ended there. The 744 seat was so unconfortable that I couldn't even sit upright comfortably, let alone sleep, and left me with a enormous headache because of the bulky headrest. By contrast, the A332 seat fit like a glove. It was extremely comfortable for both sitting and sleeping, so much so that I slept like a baby for 6.5 hours straight. As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't pay more for a full flat bed, but next time I'll pay more to avoid AF's 744's
brilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3181 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (5 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2342 times:
Quoting LOWS (Reply 18): If people want to fly in First Class, they should pay for it...
Exactly, unless the airline advertises lie flat seats that aren't, then I would have a problem with the seat. If is advertised as lie flat then I would expect that. But unfortunately, the airlines now don't really care about its passengers and thus they don't see the need for this.
Yep, but DL does have re-fit's scheduled for 763's and 330's. I just put the DL A330 seats in the cradle position and don't have any problems sleeping.
VC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2431 posts, RR: 9 Reply 21, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1794 times:
All very interesting! My experience has been that when an airline upgrades it's seat the price stays the same. For me Continental to XXX had the worst recliner ever, yet it cost exactly the same as other carriers with a true lie flat. UA may have done something smart. While they held onto their recliner way too long, they skipped angled seats and went directly to a true lie-flat. Today the merged entity has just about all real horizontal lie flats across the huge number of international widebodies. But the price of UA on the 3 flights I have been flying for over a decade has remained about the same...LHR, GVA, GRU/GIG have hovered around $6500 from recliner to true flats. And bash UA all you wish, but their "Business First" seats (either design) is great- and if I choose them today I am sure I won't get an angled seat.
Yes, an angled seat is FAR better than economy, but for $6500 I would choose UA over TAM or LH until they both have refitted. For me, sleep is #1 over food or movies. These are business trips for me and I hate landing in Sao Paulo to go to work with a bad nights sleep.
I am really shocked about AF. I haven't flown them in many years as my last AF flight ranks #1 worst flight of my life. But that had nothing to do with angled or flat seats. However, I'd think the flag carrier of such a fashion forward, sophisticated and beautiful country like France would at least want to match or beat BA!
If I were to fly Emirates from GRU to Dubai or SQ from GRU to Singapore, in J, what kind of seat would I get?
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
dcann40 From United States of America, joined Sep 2012, 303 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1542 times:
I think angled seats (both flat but not horizontal as well as slightly angled) will still be found in many aircraft for the next 3-4 years.
LH is just introducing its new seats as we know but replacing the PrivateBed seats in older aircraft will take a while.
Same thing for AA, which is introducing lie flat business class seats on transcons. Other planes will have the older seats until the aircraft are parked.
330lover From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 505 posts, RR: 1 Reply 23, posted (5 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1382 times:
Angled lie flat will never be gone.
Remember when the legacy carriers had angled lie flat as their 'top product'. That time the 'leisure carriers' like Condor, Corsair, Martinair,... had unfomfy cradle seats.
Now most legacies go for fully lie flat seats, and we see the 'leisure carriers' introducing the angled lie-flat as their top product. Look at Air Caraibes or Air Austral. Carriers flying mainly leisure pax will never go fully flat, as it will never be profitable.
That's why, in my opinion, you will always find angled seats, just not on 'world carriers' who depend on business travellers for their profitability.
Britten Norman Islander VP-FBR on Falkland Islands. THAT'S FLYING!
Azure From France, joined Dec 2012, 208 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (5 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1263 times:
Hello fellow a.nutters ! My first post here after several months of intense lurking It feels great to be part of this community !
Quoting VC10er (Reply 22): I am really shocked about AF. I haven't flown them in many years as my last AF flight ranks #1 worst flight of my life. But that had nothing to do with angled or flat seats. However, I'd think the flag carrier of such a fashion forward, sophisticated and beautiful country like France would at least want to match or beat BA!
A bad experience can happen anytime anywhere, I guess. It takes more than one flight to have a fair idea of an airline ! AF hard product in J is not bad : according to their own poll (so, granted, this is worth what it is worth) AF state than 90% of their clients praise the new seats.
In any case, BA World Class and their strange forward-and-back seat pattern would not be appealing to me, and IMO say, to probably a majority of French business travelers : why pay a premium fare to end up seating in the wrong direction ?
It may be a cultural thing but as you noticed, such a sophisticated, fashion oriented people cannot be wrong all the time
Quoting 330lover (Reply 24): Now most legacies go for fully lie flat seats, and we see the 'leisure carriers' introducing the angled lie-flat as their top product. Look at Air Caraibes or Air Austral. Carriers flying mainly leisure pax will never go fully flat, as it will never be profitable.
I realize ONE bad experience shouldn't taint a whole airline and should have called that out. But I have been surprised the 5 or 6 times I've flown AF that it wasn't an easy #1 best of all. It's good AF but not as good as France IMHO.
I have one horror story from each airline I have flown regularly.
The reason my AF horror story has impacted me was due to a dispute with AF corporate - not the airline nor the service or angled seats. I would fly AF again happily, but I actually use the exCO 757 (now UA) in a lie flat. I know many hate the TATL 757's, but in front it's rather quiet and cozy - and being a sleep addict- I like the seat. In fact I may take a nap now!
R
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2431 posts, 
From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2558 posts, 
From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8272 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, 
From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1165 posts, 
From Belgium, joined Jul 2008, 505 posts, 
From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 7727 posts, 
From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5205 posts, 
From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 985 posts, 
From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 3181 posts, 
From France, joined Dec 2012, 208 posts, 
It feels great to be part of this community !
Printer friendly format 
