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Flying In The US, The Dreadful Truth  
User currently offlinethekennady From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5119 times:

Like many people in this Forum, I am a Aviation Enthusiast who loves everything Aviation Related, its a passion that Excites me like no other. Sadly, I see myself Enjoying plane spotting, discussions, and researching much more than the actual act of flying. This is Certainly true in the United states, Where the direction of the Aviation/Airline industry seems to be getting less and less appealing and enjoyable. I have 2 main Gripes when it comes to the act of flying and dealing with the process.

1) Airline Mergers

Despite what is told to us via the Airlines and those who work for the airlines, we the customers and Employees benefit none from Airline consolidation. This only helps Airlines get bigger, reduces competition, raises prices, and creates less seats in the air. We now must deal with Job cuts, less hubs, crowded planes, and poorer Customer Service. The Bigger the airline gets the less they tend to care about their employees and customers as a whole. US airlines Know there is no alternate way to travel that is as efficient as Flying (High speed rail), and they seem to Exploit this by giving us a inferior product. Every single one of the Legacy carriers has been in Chap 11 bankruptcy in the past decade, all the mergers do is create a bigger version of a already flawed business model. I thought bankruptcy was a time to restructure and focus running a more efficient, costumer/Employee conscious airline, but the airlines answer seems to be to Merge, cut routes, hubs, and raise prices. Now these US legacies are too big to fail, and you the costumer/employee must take what u can get, enjoy the Abuse!


2) The Atmosphere around Flying

Nothing Irritates me more that the process of going through a airport to get on a plane. From Idiotic TSA Agents, to over Zealous Police, and Arrogant flight attendants and airport staff, it seems like more and more Idiots are infesting positions at or around airports and aircraft. People are forced to walk on egg shells, have their privacy violated, and could be abused, detained, or removed from a plane for the slightest of issues. People seem to have no common sense anymore, theres security, and then there is blatant over reaction, profiling, and just down right immaturity. If a person dares say something that is perceived as wrong, people tend to make it a unnecessary issue. Planes are diverted, people are harassed and flying as a whole is becoming more stressful and Irritating. I know this is not true in Every situation, but it seem to be the overriding trend at US airports, all for what? protecting us? people need to grow up and act like adults and stop abusing power and tattle telling for non issues. If someone does something blatantly wrong then deal with them, other that that there is no need to act like children. I have had much better flying experiences in the Middle East, East Asia, and Africa than in the states, security over all is reasonable, Airlines are more Costumer oriented, and the stress of flying is reduced heavily.

I wonder if anyone is seeing what I see? after traveling out of the US for some time, its has become apparent to me that We are going in the wrong Direction, soon flying will have to be just endured, not enjoyed.

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11407 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aba_1332656862

"You're sitting in a chair in the sky." Perspective.

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
we the customers

I'm a paying customer, and I am a actually quite optimistic about the direction the industry is moving.

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
Employees benefit none from Airline consolidation

Ask the employees of DL, and the unions at AA, about the benefits they perceive from consolidation.

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
Nothing Irritates me more that the process of going through a airport to get on a plane. From Idiotic TSA Agents, to over Zealous Police, and Arrogant flight attendants and airport staff, it seems like more and more Idiots are infesting positions at or around airports and aircraft. People are forced to walk on egg shells, have their privacy violated, and could be abused, detained, or removed from a plane for the slightest of issues. People seem to have no common sense anymore, theres security, and then there is blatant over reaction, profiling, and just down right immaturity. If a person dares say something that is perceived as wrong, people tend to make it a unnecessary issue. Planes are diverted, people are harassed and flying as a whole is becoming more stressful and Irritating. I know this is not true in Every situation, but it seem to be the overriding trend at US airports, all for what? protecting us? people need to grow up and act like adults and stop abusing power and tattle telling for non issues. If someone does something blatantly wrong then deal with them, other that that there is no need to act like children. I have had much better flying experiences in the Middle East, East Asia, and Africa than in the states, security over all is reasonable, Airlines are more Costumer oriented, and the stress of flying is reduced heavily.

I fly often, and while it's true that the air travel experience may be different than it was 20 or 30 years ago, I find that the airport experience isn't really all that bad if you know how to work with it. The reality is that 9/11 and the economic challenges since have changed air travel. No question about it.

But despite peoples' common desire to compare domestic U.S. flights to predominantly longer-distance flights operated by government-subsidized or -protected international carriers in other parts of the world, the comparison is just unrealistic, and unfair. Show me another market where airlines move as many people every day, as efficiently and as safely, and then we'll talk. The closest comparison I think we currently have is intra-Europe. And on the basis of that comparison, I'd say the U.S. domestic experience generally stacks up pretty well in many respects.

I still find that, on balance, the U.S. air travel system generally delivers as advertised: affordable, efficient, fast inter-city transportation. I'm happy with that. And honestly - I may be a romantic on the subject, but I still feel that once I'm in my window seat cruising at 30,000 feet, looking down at the world below me, flying is a thrilling wonder.


User currently offlinethekennady From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4873 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):Ask the employees of DL
Excluding the 800 that lost their jobs at CVG? and the Cuts now at MEM? if sure they have a different story.....

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):But despite peoples' common desire to compare domestic U.S. flights to predominantly longer-distance flights operated by government-subsidized or -protected international carriers in other parts of the world, the comparison is just unrealistic
Im talking of the overall experience, sure there are less people flying in other parts of the world, but just because the US Industry is different is no Excuse for the Atmosphere that has been created around flying. Why should we settle when it can get better? this is the problem, people except what is given to them.[Edited 2013-06-15 04:56:33]

[Edited 2013-06-15 05:03:20]

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2476 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 4871 times:
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Well, my opinion about Part 1 is that you are describing the Capitalist System at work. It's all about the $$$. That's what makes the wheel turn and it's not all pretty.

Part 2, yes, I completely agree. So, what are we to do? The terrorists and other criminals have caused a severe re-action to all of their actions and I don't see those actions going away any more than the terrorists are going to go away. A good for-instance is the EU recently refused to add Hezbollah to it's list of terrorists! Really?!
O.K. so that gives Hezbollah (Iran) the message that "anything goes in Europe". And make no mistake about it, Europeans will pay.
Here in the U.S. all of "the good days" ended with 9/11. Common sense was kicked to the curb to accommodate all kinds of smoke and mirrors games played by all kinds of local and national agencies to give us a feeling of "security" on-board aircraft. In my opinion most of it is pretty far out there and won't stop terrorists anyway. Lots of people dissagree yet, "profiling" does work. The Israeli's NEVER turned me upside-down and shook-out my pockets and made me remove my belt or shoes-------however, they sure did question me and interview me. It was a lot more pleasant and comforting than my experiences with the TSA. I have felt like the TSA is really some kind of government programme to get people off of the streets in the ghetto. At least that is what it seems like in Atlanta. Most do not speak english that can be understood by many people. Doesn't make me feel safer and it sure is aggrevating. Anyway, I agree with you that a lot of the "fun" is gone from flying.

IMO Flying is already something to be "endured".



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4817 times:

Flying has lost its 'good ole days' feel because it is accessible to nearly anyone who wishes to take a plane. If you price air travel so high that only the top 1-2% of people stand a chance of flying, the risk of terrorism goes down as there would be fewer passengers, and airliners would start bringing china and hot meals back.

Air travel has become less exciting, but don't compare it to what it used to be. Simply because of its accessibility and the service level demanded by consumers, it should be compared to Greyhound.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4792 times:

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
soon flying will have to be just endured, not enjoyed.

You want 'enjoyment'? Go to an amusement park. You want to go from A...........to...........B? Endure the flight. Airline flights are not joyrides, merry-go-rounds don't go anywhere. You want enjoyment AND transportation? Take a cruise. As for mergers 'hurting' employees, I'm an airline employee and my airlines' merger with another didn't hurt me, or anyone I know, one bit. We are now stronger and more financially secure. We now go more places than before, giving us more travel options. We're finally making money after YEARS of losing our shirts. Just for fun, compare oil-industry profits to airline profits...THAT's where you should direct your ire. Our passengers are paying comparatively less for airfares now than ever before. Yet, 'some' people aren't satisfied until they get dog-and-pony shows and prime rib on a flight that's comparatively CHEAP. You like flying in places other than the US? ONE WAY flights are CHEAPER than roundtrips.....save money AND escape the US at the same time!! Don't like TSA? Walking works.

I M H O....your argument has no validity.

You just want to rant.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinethekennady From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4772 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):

Exactly the type of Attitude that im talking about, you demonstrated exactly where the problem lies.


User currently offlinechootie From Germany, joined May 2007, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4745 times:

Hi and Welcome!!!!1

First off consider the "customer/consumer". Thanks to the wishes of the travelling public, prices for air transportation, have
fallen year after year. This means that it is almost only a glorified Greyhound trip in the sky.
Along with this change, came the great demographic change of the customers----most too (using your words), idiotic to deal with what is going on. Case in point from not adhearing to the rules of liquids in your handbagage, not using electric devices, not complying with regulations. It is all about getting along in this society. If you cannot adhear to the rules, stay home. These are the ones acting like children, and wanting it their way.

Do you really need to have that phone conversation while boarding??? Can´t be bothered by saying hello to the gate agent and maintaining eye-contact. I myself do not need to hear your conversation.(for that matter neither do all the others in the gate area!!!)

I suppose it all went to hell in a hand basket, when flying was made affordable for all classes. Call me old fashioned or what ever.

For what it is worth, common courtesy, good manners, being able to conduct an intelligent conversation, and just plain common sense would more than make the travelling expirence alot better.

rant over...........



chootie
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11407 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4678 times:

Quoting thekennady (Reply 2):
Excluding the 800 that lost their jobs at CVG? and the Cuts now at MEM? if sure they have a different story.....

Creative destruction. Welcome to capitalism. Everybody isn't guaranteed a job for life - this isn't the Soviet Union. Airlines had to cut jobs to become efficient, competitive and stable. Now that they have, hundreds of thousands of airline employees are benefiting and will continue to benefit from that efficiency, competitiveness and stability.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 2):
Im talking of the overall experience, sure there are less people flying in other parts of the world, but just because the US Industry is different is no Excuse for the Atmosphere that has been created around flying.

Again - it's a totally unfair comparison. U.S. carriers operate both extensive global and domestic networks over multiple hubs with vibrant competition by multiple strong, well-capitalized competitors in both markets. Many of these vaunted non-U.S. carriers that some so often like to compare against are either directly or indirectly government subsidized, supported or promoted, operate predominantly or entirely widebodies, fly from a single hub, face little or no meaningful low-fare competition, and cater to little or no domestic market.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 2):
Why should we settle when it can get better? this is the problem, people except what is given to them.

People in the U.S. haven't accepted what's been given to them. They're getting exactly what they want. Since deregulation, "people" have spoken loud and clear with their wallets that what they want above all else is low prices. Guess what? They've gotten it! Adjusted for inflation, and even including ancillary fees for baggage, etc., the cost of air travel has gone down by essentially half in the last thirty years. If "people" still valued free meals, more legroom, etc., airlines would be offering it. But "people" don't - what they generally value is getting to their destination cheaply, safely, and quickly. And, in my experience, the U.S. air transportation system generally delivers that.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 4):
Flying has lost its 'good ole days' feel because it is accessible to nearly anyone who wishes to take a plane. If you price air travel so high that only the top 1-2% of people stand a chance of flying, the risk of terrorism goes down as there would be fewer passengers, and airliners would start bringing china and hot meals back.

  

Exactly right.


User currently offlinethekennady From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4549 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
"people" have spoken loud and clear with their wallets that what they want above all else is low prices

For the Average traveler Why wouldn't you pay cheaper prices if you could? Air airlines offer low fares people will pay for it. U get what they give.....

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
Creative destruction. Welcome to capitalism. Everybody isn't guaranteed a job for life - this isn't the Soviet Union. Airlines had to cut jobs to become efficient, competitive and stable. Now that they have, hundreds of thousands of airline employees are benefiting and will continue to benefit from that efficiency, competitiveness and stability.

Lol, still does not deconstruct my point, That's hardly a benefit, U like being treated like cattle than by all means enjoy it.


User currently offlinehinckley From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

I'm largely in agreement with all of these responses. In the history of commercial aviation, airlines have almost never been regularly profitable. And unprofitable businesses go out of business - at least in capitalist countries like those in North America and Europe.

As others have said, airline travel now costs about as much as bus travel in the 50s, 60s and 70s. And say what you will, planes are certainly more comfortable and much faster than busses.

I'm lucky enough to mostly fly in premium cabins. Inflation adjusted, premium travel today costs somewhere between tourist and first class travel in the 60s. And I assure you, compared to the 60s, THIS is the good old days for travelers up front (especially for international routes).

I'm not suggesting that we've reached perfection or some sort of nirvana. Rent-a-cop-like TSA agents are way too common. And unfortunately, rude and ridiculously demanding passengers are well.


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4455 times:

Quoting thekennady (Reply 6):
Exactly the type of Attitude that im talking about, you demonstrated exactly where the problem lies.

Exactly what I expected you to say, accuse your accuser. How predictable.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinehinckley From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4456 times:

Quoting thekennady (Reply 9):
Lol, still does not deconstruct my point, That's hardly a benefit, U like being treated like cattle than by all means enjoy it.

Most airline passengers don't like being treated like cattle. But most passengers do like low prices and accept the cattle classes that they receive for those low prices.

Those who prefer premium treatment over low price chose premium class travel. Unfortunately, most people don't have that choice.

But there's that word again . . . CHOICE. Most people didn't have choice in earlier days of commercial aviation. They simply could not afford to fly anywhere in any cabin. Today, most people have the choice. That's a pretty big advancement to me.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3866 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
his only helps Airlines get bigger, reduces competition, raises prices, and creates less seats in the air. We now must deal with Job cuts, less hubs, crowded planes, and poorer Customer Service

Airlines are businesses. With the exception of EAS, they are not subsidized by the government. If they can't make money, they won't be around. What would you rather have: limited service on crowded planes or no service at all? The economics of the airline industry are horrible--just look at some of the yields.

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
they seem to Exploit this by giving us a inferior product

They give us the product that the American consumer is willing to pay for. Airlines have tried to compete on service and comfort levels (remember AA's MRTC?), but they have found that customers are not willing to pay for those extras.

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
thought bankruptcy was a time to restructure and focus running a more efficient, costumer/Employee conscious airline, but the airlines answer seems to be to Merge, cut routes, hubs, and raise prices. Now these US legacies are too big to fail, and you the costumer/employee must take what u can get, enjoy the Abuse!

Bankruptcy exists for financial and economic restructuring. Customer service has nothing to do with it. And no airline is "too big to fail"--chapter 11 is available for companies in all industries--it's not just a program limited to the aviation industry. While it has truly been awhile since a major U.S. airline went through the process of liquidation, that doesn't mean that it can't happen.

And remember, flying is a still a choice.

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
I still find that, on balance, the U.S. air travel system generally delivers as advertised: affordable, efficient, fast inter-city transportation. I'm happy with that. And honestly - I may be a romantic on the subject, but I still feel that once I'm in my window seat cruising at 30,000 feet, looking down at the world below me, flying is a thrilling wonder.

Yep.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 4):
Flying has lost its 'good ole days' feel because it is accessible to nearly anyone who wishes to take a plane.

Yep. Just look at average ticket prices adjusted for purchasing power. Flying in the "good ole days" was ridiculously expensive.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
Yet, 'some' people aren't satisfied until they get dog-and-pony shows and prime rib on a flight that's comparatively CHEAP
Quoting thekennady (Reply 6):
Exactly the type of Attitude that im talking about, you demonstrated exactly where the problem lie

With capitalism and airline economics?

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
ince deregulation, "people" have spoken loud and clear with their wallets that what they want above all else is low prices.

Yep.


User currently offlinethekennady From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

I value all the responses, but my end point remains. The US flying experience remains sub par and seems to be getting worse. Regardless of the circumstances, it is what it is. We do have a choice, but when we make that choice it does not mean we should settle for mistreatment or unreasonable behavior. One day all the optimists will have no choice but to face the ugly truth, something has failed.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2122 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4167 times:

Quoting thekennady (Reply 14):
We do have a choice, but when we make that choice it does not mean we should settle for mistreatment or unreasonable behavior. One day all the optimists will have no choice but to face the ugly truth, something has failed.

I have flown many times and can't say I have ever been mistreated or been subject to unreasonable behavior.

Low quality/no meals, and little legroom =/= mistreatment.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 14):
The US flying experience remains sub par and seems to be getting worse. Regardless of the circumstances, it is what it is

Here is a dirty little secret: except for a small handful of airlines, in economy it is not much better in the rest of the world. The grass is not greener on the other side.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4114 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4081 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
I'm a paying customer, and I am a actually quite optimistic about the direction the industry is moving.

I agree.

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
I fly often, and while it's true that the air travel experience may be different than it was 20 or 30 years ago, I find that the airport experience isn't really all that bad if you know how to work with it. The reality is that 9/11 and the economic challenges since have changed air travel. No question about it.

I agee

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
You want 'enjoyment'? Go to an amusement park. You want to go from A...........to...........B? Endure the flight. Airline flights are not joyrides, merry-go-rounds don't go anywhere.

I disagree. You can go from A...........to...........B by any means you want. Take the train or bus. Drive your self. Walk or bike. There are other options. Before you say anything about travelling internationally, you could take a boat or travel by ship, canoe, kayak, or even swim.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 6):
Exactly the type of Attitude that i'm talking about, you demonstrated exactly where the problem lies.
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 11):

Exactly what I expected you to say, accuse your accuser. How predictabl

Yes, you go girl...

Quoting us330 (Reply 13):
Yep. Just look at average ticket prices adjusted for purchasing power. Flying in the "good ole days" was ridiculously expensive.

That's right, and it kept alot of people from flying and there were people wearing proper clothing and not undershirts and slippers to fly in.

Quoting us330 (Reply 13):
With capitalism and airline economics?

The price of air travel is so out of whack with the actual cost that economics don't even enter into the picture here. There is no sense of economic reality in airline travel. Most of the yutzes that fly are looking for cheap flights and the airlines are giving them what they want. It should be left to the markets to make air travel what it once was people need to realize that most of the air tickets are sold at a loss. I blame the likes of people like us330 for demanding cheaper air fares and the idiots like Herb Kelleher and Freddie Laker who created the LCC model. Richard Branson had it right when he created the Upper class on his aircraft and the original premise for Virgin Atlantic, to have an airline that is like the good ole days.

[Edited 2013-06-15 06:33:21]


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinemichman From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4083 times:

Quoting thekennady (Reply 14):

I value all the responses, but my end point remains. The US flying experience remains sub par and seems to be getting worse. Regardless of the circumstances, it is what it is. We do have a choice, but when we make that choice it does not mean we should settle for mistreatment or unreasonable behavior. One day all the optimists will have no choice but to face the ugly truth, something has failed.

Prior to consolidation, both NW and US had eliminated domestic IFE. Many of the cutbacks (no meal service), and fees (checked luggage) were instituted prior to consolidation. The "six sick" legacies were constantly teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, had poor labor relations, incomplete route networks, and were generally dysfunctional. You may prefer that model, I sure don't. With the rise of the LCC's and ULCC's, I also don't believe they all would have lasted forever, consolidation or no consolidation.

I've been a Gold or Plat on NW/DL for the last 12 years. I still enjoy air travel and firmly believe it is what you make it. Of course having status and TSA Pre-check helps, but even before Pre-check, I can't say I had any big issues with TSA. Pre-check solves my main hassles with TSA which were having take all my stuff out, shoes off, etc.

[Edited 2013-06-15 06:37:48]

User currently offlineawacsooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 4032 times:

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
. Every single one of the Legacy carriers has been in Chap 11 bankruptcy in the past decade

I hope you're not including WN in that grouping...

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
Now these US legacies are too big to fail,

This is what I don't get...they use Chapter 11 to cover up their gross mismanagement...then they merge. Now, heaven forbid they keep losing money, because now there's more folks out of jobs. General Motors should have been allowed to die...no government bailout. If we value the capitalist system, we need to let these money-losing corporations move over and make room for others to succeed. Sure jobs will be lost, but most of them quickly get snapped up by the new entities.

Quoting thekennady (Reply 6):
Exactly the type of Attitude that im talking about, you demonstrated exactly where the problem lies.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, bud. Unfortunately, he had a really surly way to disagree with yours...I'm noticing a drop in civility on the forums at times and it's really getting irritating.

Quoting us330 (Reply 13):
With the exception of EAS, they are not subsidized by the government. If they can't make money, they won't be around.

Not really...all of the majors have lost money hand over fist for the better part of a decade until they came up with the ancillary revenues...and almost all of them used the guise of Chapter 11 to wipe the slate clean.


User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
crowded planes

Would you prefer a plane that's half empty? I remember the "good old days" when that was true. Maybe that's why they all went bankrupt?


User currently offlineb2319 From China, joined Jan 2013, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting thekennady (Thread starter):
I am a Aviation Enthusiast who loves everything Aviation Related

I think the rest of your post actually contradicts this. I think you have to accept your situation, or alter it, e.g. emigrate.

I've not visited the USA since 2004, so cannot comment on the situation today. If others reckon it is improving, then I cannot argue against this.

For international travel in economy class, I would generally choose SE Asia>North Asia>Middle East>North Europe>South Europe>African>Australian>USA carriers. (I have never been in Central or South America). I am guessing, most here would rank in a similar order. There are reasons why SE Asian carriers have better customer service, and Middle East carriers have, mostly superior cabin entertainment to others. Equally, there's a reason why Flight Attendant seniority works the way it does in the USA; also I believe, DC9s are still flying in the USA.

Conversely, the world is improving in other areas. I am of a generation that paid for my music- records, compact discs, blank cassettes, etc. Today, and not wanting to attract the attention of the 'spooks', and not being an internet wizard, I reckon, I could obtain music, if I wanted to, essentially for free.

In a way, I sympathise with your situation, however, frankly, this is life. There's a reason why, despite an EU passport, I am choosing not to live in the west.

Regards

B-2319


User currently onlineSIA747Megatop From Singapore, joined Apr 2012, 279 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
You want 'enjoyment'? Go to an amusement park. You want to go from A...........to...........B? Endure the flight. Airline flights are not joyrides, merry-go-rounds don't go anywhere. You want enjoyment AND transportation? Take a cruise

Hahahahahaha. With that attitude it's no surprise that all the premium airlines in Asia. Take Japan - a country with a sizeable domestic market which also faces competition from high speed rail where passengers can choose to fly LCC, full service and premium cabin. When flying full service Y or premium cabins the experience IS enjoyable. I don't see why employees have to make the experience so difficult and painful to endure in the States, it's bizarre. In the US there is no difference between the LCCs and full service economy except for a hand luggage charge. When I'm in the USA I always fly F yet the service I receive is inferior to that on Tiger Airways.

Quoting chootie (Reply 7):
Do you really need to have that phone conversation while boarding??? Can´t be bothered by saying hello to the gate agent and maintaining eye-contact. I myself do not need to hear your conversation.(for that matter neither do all the others in the gate area!!!)

I'm sorry but if you get an urgent call from your boss or a client whilst boarding and he/she has something urgent to say, what do you expect the passenger to respond? "Sorry, I have to greet the gate agent before I board the plane so that she doesn't give me the stink-eye." Jeez, talk about taking self importance.

When do you suppose I finish my call then? When I board the aircraft and get yelled at by a flight attendant who's going to threaten (rudely) to have me off the plane and then just say they're doing their job?

Whenever I fly in the US I find the gate agents simply stick their hand out to you and say "Boarding pass." In Singapore (through contracted agents mind you) I am wished a pleasant flight and it is the same for all passengers. When I use the priority lane when flying SQ I am sometimes addressed by name.

Now don't give me that sh!t about how airline/employees in America are paid nothing and are forced to work long hours and blame it on capitalism. Singapore has no minimum wage and next to no benefits and employee protection for those that don't earn much and life is tough, not helped by 5% annual inflation. The gate and security agents here, along with cabin crew at airlines like Tiger and JetStar are not paid much and yet they're able to go to work with a smile and offer better service than their higher paid counterparts serving the F cabins in the USA. The TR and 3K crews are not put up in fancy hotels and don't serve widebody aircraft.

If I wasn't happy with my job and life I would suck it up. If I were to show my frustration and lack of patience towards clients the same way gate agents and cabin crew in the US do towards customers, I would be fired and I hope that someone at the airlines in the US are able to implement similar measures. At SIA - cabin crew are often accused of being robotic which is fine but they aren't rude because they know if they are rude and a passenger writes in a complaint they will be disciplined severely.

This isn't exclusive to the airline employees in the US. The TSA are equally, if not more aggressive and rude than the former. The whole thing is just SO unnecessary. How is it that so many other airports across the world have security agents that just do their jobs peacefully, without being condescending, arrogant and making a huge fuss about every small thing.

I have no issues with the hard product on US domestic services, no issues with having to pay for food or alcoholic beverages, no issues with baggage fees but I do have a problem with security and airline employees that are rude and lazy and make the experience miserable for the passenger.


Quoting hinckley (Reply 12):
But there's that word again . . . CHOICE. Most people didn't have choice in earlier days of commercial aviation. They simply could not afford to fly anywhere in any cabin. Today, most people have the choice. That's a pretty big advancement to me.

Not sure if this is by demand but the US doesn't have any premium airlines other than VX and maybe you could consider B6. I'm not sure about others but I am willing to pay more for better service which is why I mainly fly Singapore Airlines when possible. Their fares are higher than your average full service carrier but you still feel like you get what you pay for the premium experience - even in Y. I get enjoyment and transportation at the premium price I'm willing to pay. In the US I attempt to do this by flying domestic F but I still feel the experience is lacklustre and mediocre at best.



Would you like fries with that? I didn't think so.
User currently offlinercair1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1305 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3814 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
Here is a dirty little secret: except for a small handful of airlines, in economy it is not much better in the rest of the world. The grass is not greener on the other side.

And it is more expensive.
I did a quick non-scientific experiment - using Google/flights to price round trip, non-stop, economy fares between cities in the western US (DEN, SEA, LAX, SFO) and major cities in Europe (LHR, AMS, CDG, MAD, BCN, FCO).

I used the same dates - more than a month out.

In general - between city pairs in Europe:
- There were fewer non-stops (typically 60% of the US city pair)
- The flight distance was less (yes - I know flight distance is not a good measure of fare). I forgot how small Europe is - it was hard to find major city pairs that matched DEN-SFO/LAX/SEA in distance.
- The low fare prices in the US were 50-80% of the flights in Europe.
- Typically the low fares in Europe were available only on a couple flights - the average fares were much higher

Yes - I could find isolated cases where europe prices/frequency where comparable or cheaper (sort of). For instance LHR, CDG (216mi) - 21 non-stops ranging from $157 (2 flights) to $593 (BA) .
Compare LAX/SFO ($338)- 52 non-stops, $178(24 flights) to $314 (note - Southwest does not advertise fares on Google/flights - so I looked - $89 - multiple times).

The short answer is - in the US there is more availability at lower fares. Is the experience worse? Perhaps a little but not much. Frankly flying DEN-SEA and back - all I really care about is chair in the sky. Modern aircraft are pretty boring to fly on.

So - from a societal standpoint - air travel in the US is more available to more people and that is good, not bad. I have more choices at lower cost. I can choose to pay more for better service, or just get there and more likely on my schedule.

To be clear - I'm a pilot and I love all about aircraft. I've followed the 787, 748 and 350 closely. I would love to fly any of them anywhere. 380 too. But it would be for the experience of the new a/c and not the actual reason they exist - which is travel.

I've not traveled in Europe in the past 3 years - but prior to that - I remember empty planes and comparable service.
------
Now - has the airport experience degraded - absolutely. I hate, hate, hate it. I don't blame the airlines tho - I blame terrorists and the government's reactions. I'm offended every time I go through security. I don't like not being able to meet my wife at the gate. I'm no threat to anybody who is not a threat to me.



rcair1
User currently offlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2015 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3792 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 15):
Here is a dirty little secret: except for a small handful of airlines, in economy it is not much better in the rest of the world. The grass is not greener on the other side.

Agree completely with this except in one area - baggage delivery. This is my one and only real beef with the air travel experience in the US. I'm not sure this can be directly attributed to airline procedures since so many of them have outsourced this function, but in country after country that I've visited, my luggage was waiting for me on the carousel when I deplaned. Australia, Japan, Indonesia, Thailand, India, Norway, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Chile, Mexico, Turkey, South Africa - you name it, it was faster there. Didn't matter if I was on a domestic or an international flight, or a widebody versus a narrowbody. It's always faster elsewhere.

I honestly cannot remember the last time I didn't have to wait next to a baggage carousel for at least 20 minutes here in the US (and that's after spending about 10-15 minutes waiting to deplane and walking to the arrivals hall!), even at smaller airports like Key West or Knoxville where the baggage handlers' priority is likely not ensuring connecting bags get off the plane first. I'm not sure how this came to be, but it's the one consistent theme I've noticed any time I check a bag in the US - it takes forever for it to get returned to me, and that's simply not the case anywhere else I've traveled.


User currently offlineBoeing717200 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 795 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

The problem with the OP is that he's complaining about the US flying experience as if its some US phenomena. The fact of the matter is flying short haul everywhere else in the world isn't really any different.

Now, some international carriers are better in terms of service for long haul, but my experience is that those with a vast difference are few and far between and largely limited to Pacific Rim based airlines.

[Edited 2013-06-15 07:25:03]

25 WNCrew : You know, I can agree with BOTH sides of everyones' arguments but I have noticed, passengers/customers don't ever seem to address THEIR side, THEIR re
26 thekennady : We know WN does its own thing, no i did not include them I agree with everythimg you said, the problem is much deeper that what we see on the surface
27 Post contains images MaverickM11 : It's threads like this that warm my heart, because after decades of crapping all over US carriers, everyone is starting to realize (hey EU!!) that thi
28 wanderlustlax : Wow. Agreed with the OP. This is exactly the kind of attitude that makes flying such a sour experience for passengers. What happened to pride in your
29 airdfw : I completely agree with you on this one. I think the wounds of 9/11 are still raw and people need to get some semblance of commonsense back in the se
30 b2319 : Short haul in China, you always receive a free meal, and you never pay for bags or for at-airport check-in. On some routes/carriers, even free beer i
31 Boeing717200 : If passengers want to have a 1970s flying experience, then they also have to be willing to pay about $1000 for a round trip domestic ticket between N
32 Flighty : Well I think your issues are very eloquently if harshly stated! But we are also lucky to have such incredible -- legendary -- airlines. Delta of 2013
33 wanderlustlax : Where did I mention anything in my post about 1970s experience? Where did I wax philosophic about the days or yore? Please don't put words in my mout
34 Post contains images n901wa : This is my humble thought on that mater. First off, I do work for a Airline, but in a job that does not deal with the traveling public, and I do Fly a
35 Post contains images b2319 : You are entitled to your opinion. I am simply stating the truth. Kindly, via PM, inform me how many domestic flights you have taken in China, what pe
36 Post contains links and images Tigerguy : Okay, let me get a few things out of the way...no, I haven't flown internationally yet. I've only logged 180 flights, which is probably more than the
37 RyanairGuru : Or Continental Step out of line and finish your conversation, and then when it is finished rejoin the back of the line i.e. show some COMMON COURTESY
38 b2319 : I prefer to be served by younger FAs who give me an impression that they want to want to serve the customer. You'll not have seen me join the 'Bash V
39 Post contains images cvg2lga : Agreed. Things will never be the same as they were before and people need to comprehend & accept that. 840* One of them right here. Yes, that suc
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