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List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2611 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2439 times:

I know this was discussed before, but maybe this would be great to have an update.

I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO
- LA: MAD-FRA
- SQ: FRA-JFK
- SQ: MOW-IAH

I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

Thanks


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28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7329 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2426 times:
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SQ operate MUC-MAN as well

User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2420 times:
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Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Air China does MUC/ATH.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2385 times:
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Quoting SK736 (Reply 2):
Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Daily with the 787-8: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/L...4/history/20140105/1415Z/LEMD/EDDF


User currently offlineB738flyUIA From Switzerland, joined Dec 2009, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2337 times:

I'm not sure if SQ still has there S.America flight, if yes then it will be

BCN-GRU



Next Flt: ZRH-SAW-ALA Rtn on (5-13.April.14)
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2305 times:
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In the case of the EU its going to be a loooong list if 7th freedoms included.

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

Emirates fly DXB-MXP-JFK


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8737 posts, RR: 28
Reply 6, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2246 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

add 8th freedom to that if you look it from that angle.

Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

7th freedom would be flights from any member state to israel, Maroc, Russia etc from states other than the Country of Registration



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2246 times:
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CA: PEK-MAD-GRU
PK: LHE-MAN-JFK, KHI-MAN-JFK
KU: KWI-LHR-JFK

[Edited 2014-01-05 03:10:07]

User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2354 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2183 times:

EK: B777 MLA-LCA

What about Ethiopian?


User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2169 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

Complicated further by Schengen/Non Schengen nations.

Flights to/from UK/Ireland and Schengen territories remain very much international and subject to full document/immigration controls

However travel between UK and Ireland is free of document control (Predating Schengen)

Neither does the UK honour Schengen area VISAs.

Schengen signatories include none EU states Norway Iceland and Switzerland.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2654 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineDUSint From Germany, joined Apr 2013, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8737 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

well, Ok, but those flights are still within the single market, Schengen or not. We know that Iceland and Norway are Schengen states but not in the EU, same for switzerland with the additional exception that switzerland also has a different customs regime than the EU.


Since the freedoms the Airlines are enjoying within the single EU (aviation) market are market freedoms and Visa as well as Immigration as well as customs procedures are issues exercised by sovereign states, the market freedoms prevail. Technically, I would say that exercising the market freedom to operate from state B to state C without connecting state A does not apply.

Cabotage (8th freedom) does apply when purely domstic flights are flown in other member states.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineradone From Romania, joined Jul 2009, 24 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1565 times:

I think QR OTP - SOF is bookable

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7869 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1479 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8737 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.

well, that goes without saying. To participate in a market you have to be a (corporate) citizen of at least one of the participating countries.

Those who are not are called "third countries", like the USA. Such third carriers are restricted and certainly cannot participate on intra EU traffic, there are some exceptions which are shown up here.

US carriers had extensive 5th freedom rights to and from most European countries The fact that the US exercised sovereign rights over a part of West Berlin made PA and TW de facto European carriers on routes to and from Berlin. But that is Long time gone.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1185 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area countries are treated as though they were domestic passengers, the flights themselves are not domestic flights.


User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2327 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1152 times:
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Quoting DUSint (Reply 11):

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.

According to recent timetable changes, that flight is most likely to disappear in 2014.



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineaznmadsci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3635 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1152 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
- SQ: MOW-IAH

DME-IAH to be exact.



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 8737 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1009 times:

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU,

It does, the topic on which he replied to me was the European single market and it goes without saying that no third country carriers can participate in a European single market with the small exceptions we are compiling here.

These few exceptions are based on bilaters which are still in effect but will disappear once the EU has taken full authority over biletarals with third countries. Whenever that will be.



I'm not fishing for compliments
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 879 times:

Thanks guys  
Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 18):

thanks



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User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 875 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
It does,

It doesn't. Single market or not, whilst passengers may be treated as though they are domestic passengers, the flights will always be international.


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4207 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 851 times:

KE ZRH-VIE
KM BRU-AMS



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 479 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 836 times:
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Quoting airbuseric (Reply 22):
KM BRU-AMS

Malta is an EU member.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 819 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 10):

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.

Thanks for the info  



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 25, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 820 times:

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area count

I agree. Legally they're still international flights if they leave and arrive in different countries, regardless of the EU single market or Schengen. And since Switzerland was mentioned, although it's part of Schengen it's still subject to customs controls and restrictions on how much you can bring back from any other country, including Schengen members.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO

Also KU GVA-FRA-GVA twice a week.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7924 posts, RR: 54
Reply 26, posted (3 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 780 times:

Classic flight I really want to do - RIX to JFK on Uzbekistan Airways, 767-300ER from Tashkent twice a week. Not sure if this is true of the whole fleet but HY have some brand new 767s which have the 777 interior, known as the "Signature" interior by Boeing.

Definitely an unusual way to cross the pond. This is Lithuania's only transatlantic service since American Trans Air operated 757-200s scheduled JFK-BFS-RIX from 1990 to 1993 (always loved that! and speaking of fifth freedom, I wonder if they had traffic rights from BFS to RIX? I am 99% sure they did, although I am not sure there's much demand on the route…).



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2199 posts, RR: 7
Reply 27, posted (3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 770 times:

Hm... Belavia flies BUD-BEG, I think. I'm not sure if it's bookable.

User currently offlineTUGMASTER From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jul 2004, 676 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 630 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 26):

You're kidding right...?

Ireland is absolutely flooded with Lithuanians....

To be sure...!


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