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List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2921 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

I know this was discussed before, but maybe this would be great to have an update.

I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO
- LA: MAD-FRA
- SQ: FRA-JFK
- SQ: MOW-IAH

I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

Thanks


Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7810 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5333 times:
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SQ operate MUC-MAN as well

User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5326 times:

Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Air China does MUC/ATH.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5291 times:

Quoting SK736 (Reply 2):
Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Daily with the 787-8: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/L...4/history/20140105/1415Z/LEMD/EDDF


User currently offlineB738flyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5243 times:

I'm not sure if SQ still has there S.America flight, if yes then it will be

BCN-GRU


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5211 times:
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In the case of the EU its going to be a loooong list if 7th freedoms included.

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

Emirates fly DXB-MXP-JFK


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 10947 posts, RR: 33
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5152 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

add 8th freedom to that if you look it from that angle.

Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

7th freedom would be flights from any member state to israel, Maroc, Russia etc from states other than the Country of Registration



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User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8991 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5152 times:

CA: PEK-MAD-GRU
PK: LHE-MAN-JFK, KHI-MAN-JFK
KU: KWI-LHR-JFK

[Edited 2014-01-05 03:10:07]

User currently offlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2871 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5089 times:

EK: B777 MLA-LCA

What about Ethiopian?


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3406 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5075 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

Complicated further by Schengen/Non Schengen nations.

Flights to/from UK/Ireland and Schengen territories remain very much international and subject to full document/immigration controls

However travel between UK and Ireland is free of document control (Predating Schengen)

Neither does the UK honour Schengen area VISAs.

Schengen signatories include none EU states Norway Iceland and Switzerland.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 3431 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4813 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340
User currently offlineDUSint From Germany, joined Apr 2013, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 10947 posts, RR: 33
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

well, Ok, but those flights are still within the single market, Schengen or not. We know that Iceland and Norway are Schengen states but not in the EU, same for switzerland with the additional exception that switzerland also has a different customs regime than the EU.


Since the freedoms the Airlines are enjoying within the single EU (aviation) market are market freedoms and Visa as well as Immigration as well as customs procedures are issues exercised by sovereign states, the market freedoms prevail. Technically, I would say that exercising the market freedom to operate from state B to state C without connecting state A does not apply.

Cabotage (8th freedom) does apply when purely domstic flights are flown in other member states.



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User currently offlineradone From Romania, joined Jul 2009, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4471 times:

I think QR OTP - SOF is bookable

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 9890 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 10947 posts, RR: 33
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.

well, that goes without saying. To participate in a market you have to be a (corporate) citizen of at least one of the participating countries.

Those who are not are called "third countries", like the USA. Such third carriers are restricted and certainly cannot participate on intra EU traffic, there are some exceptions which are shown up here.

US carriers had extensive 5th freedom rights to and from most European countries The fact that the US exercised sovereign rights over a part of West Berlin made PA and TW de facto European carriers on routes to and from Berlin. But that is Long time gone.



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User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area countries are treated as though they were domestic passengers, the flights themselves are not domestic flights.


User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2439 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4058 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting DUSint (Reply 11):

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.

According to recent timetable changes, that flight is most likely to disappear in 2014.



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineaznmadsci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3782 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
- SQ: MOW-IAH

DME-IAH to be exact.



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 10947 posts, RR: 33
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3915 times:

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU,

It does, the topic on which he replied to me was the European single market and it goes without saying that no third country carriers can participate in a European single market with the small exceptions we are compiling here.

These few exceptions are based on bilaters which are still in effect but will disappear once the EU has taken full authority over biletarals with third countries. Whenever that will be.



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User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2921 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

Thanks guys  
Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 18):

thanks



Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
It does,

It doesn't. Single market or not, whilst passengers may be treated as though they are domestic passengers, the flights will always be international.


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4402 posts, RR: 48
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

KE ZRH-VIE
KM BRU-AMS



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 602 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3742 times:

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 22):
KM BRU-AMS

Malta is an EU member.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2921 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 10):

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.

Thanks for the info  



Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 29477 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3746 times:

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area count

I agree. Legally they're still international flights if they leave and arrive in different countries, regardless of the EU single market or Schengen. And since Switzerland was mentioned, although it's part of Schengen it's still subject to customs controls and restrictions on how much you can bring back from any other country, including Schengen members.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO

Also KU GVA-FRA-GVA twice a week.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8656 posts, RR: 53
Reply 26, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3719 times:

Classic flight I really want to do - RIX to JFK on Uzbekistan Airways, 767-300ER from Tashkent twice a week. Not sure if this is true of the whole fleet but HY have some brand new 767s which have the 777 interior, known as the "Signature" interior by Boeing.

Definitely an unusual way to cross the pond. This is Lithuania's only transatlantic service since American Trans Air operated 757-200s scheduled JFK-BFS-RIX from 1990 to 1993 (always loved that! and speaking of fifth freedom, I wonder if they had traffic rights from BFS to RIX? I am 99% sure they did, although I am not sure there's much demand on the route…).



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2337 posts, RR: 6
Reply 27, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3705 times:

Hm... Belavia flies BUD-BEG, I think. I'm not sure if it's bookable.

User currently offlineTUGMASTER From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jul 2004, 873 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 26):

You're kidding right...?

Ireland is absolutely flooded with Lithuanians....

To be sure...!


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