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List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2661 times:

I know this was discussed before, but maybe this would be great to have an update.

I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO
- LA: MAD-FRA
- SQ: FRA-JFK
- SQ: MOW-IAH

I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

Thanks


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28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7363 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2649 times:
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SQ operate MUC-MAN as well

User currently onlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2642 times:
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Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Air China does MUC/ATH.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2607 times:
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Quoting SK736 (Reply 2):
Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Daily with the 787-8: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/L...4/history/20140105/1415Z/LEMD/EDDF


User currently offlineB738flyUIA From Switzerland, joined Dec 2009, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2559 times:
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I'm not sure if SQ still has there S.America flight, if yes then it will be

BCN-GRU



Next Flt: ZRH-KBP-ALA-TSE Rtn on PS/DV 29.7 - 11.8.2014
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2963 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2527 times:
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In the case of the EU its going to be a loooong list if 7th freedoms included.

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

Emirates fly DXB-MXP-JFK


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9161 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

add 8th freedom to that if you look it from that angle.

Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

7th freedom would be flights from any member state to israel, Maroc, Russia etc from states other than the Country of Registration



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User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2468 times:
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CA: PEK-MAD-GRU
PK: LHE-MAN-JFK, KHI-MAN-JFK
KU: KWI-LHR-JFK

[Edited 2014-01-05 03:10:07]

User currently onlinedebonair From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2399 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

EK: B777 MLA-LCA

What about Ethiopian?


User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2963 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

Complicated further by Schengen/Non Schengen nations.

Flights to/from UK/Ireland and Schengen territories remain very much international and subject to full document/immigration controls

However travel between UK and Ireland is free of document control (Predating Schengen)

Neither does the UK honour Schengen area VISAs.

Schengen signatories include none EU states Norway Iceland and Switzerland.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2754 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineDUSint From Germany, joined Apr 2013, 194 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9161 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2124 times:

well, Ok, but those flights are still within the single market, Schengen or not. We know that Iceland and Norway are Schengen states but not in the EU, same for switzerland with the additional exception that switzerland also has a different customs regime than the EU.


Since the freedoms the Airlines are enjoying within the single EU (aviation) market are market freedoms and Visa as well as Immigration as well as customs procedures are issues exercised by sovereign states, the market freedoms prevail. Technically, I would say that exercising the market freedom to operate from state B to state C without connecting state A does not apply.

Cabotage (8th freedom) does apply when purely domstic flights are flown in other member states.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineradone From Romania, joined Jul 2009, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1787 times:

I think QR OTP - SOF is bookable

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8210 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9161 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.

well, that goes without saying. To participate in a market you have to be a (corporate) citizen of at least one of the participating countries.

Those who are not are called "third countries", like the USA. Such third carriers are restricted and certainly cannot participate on intra EU traffic, there are some exceptions which are shown up here.

US carriers had extensive 5th freedom rights to and from most European countries The fact that the US exercised sovereign rights over a part of West Berlin made PA and TW de facto European carriers on routes to and from Berlin. But that is Long time gone.



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User currently onlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1407 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area countries are treated as though they were domestic passengers, the flights themselves are not domestic flights.


User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1374 times:
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Quoting DUSint (Reply 11):

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.

According to recent timetable changes, that flight is most likely to disappear in 2014.



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineaznmadsci From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 3658 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1374 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
- SQ: MOW-IAH

DME-IAH to be exact.



The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9161 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1231 times:

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU,

It does, the topic on which he replied to me was the European single market and it goes without saying that no third country carriers can participate in a European single market with the small exceptions we are compiling here.

These few exceptions are based on bilaters which are still in effect but will disappear once the EU has taken full authority over biletarals with third countries. Whenever that will be.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1101 times:

Thanks guys  
Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 18):

thanks



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User currently onlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1097 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
It does,

It doesn't. Single market or not, whilst passengers may be treated as though they are domestic passengers, the flights will always be international.


User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4253 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1073 times:

KE ZRH-VIE
KM BRU-AMS



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently onlineSK736 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1058 times:
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Quoting airbuseric (Reply 22):
KM BRU-AMS

Malta is an EU member.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2671 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1041 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 10):

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.

Thanks for the info  



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24858 posts, RR: 22
Reply 25, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1045 times:

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area count

I agree. Legally they're still international flights if they leave and arrive in different countries, regardless of the EU single market or Schengen. And since Switzerland was mentioned, although it's part of Schengen it's still subject to customs controls and restrictions on how much you can bring back from any other country, including Schengen members.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO

Also KU GVA-FRA-GVA twice a week.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8058 posts, RR: 54
Reply 26, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1007 times:

Classic flight I really want to do - RIX to JFK on Uzbekistan Airways, 767-300ER from Tashkent twice a week. Not sure if this is true of the whole fleet but HY have some brand new 767s which have the 777 interior, known as the "Signature" interior by Boeing.

Definitely an unusual way to cross the pond. This is Lithuania's only transatlantic service since American Trans Air operated 757-200s scheduled JFK-BFS-RIX from 1990 to 1993 (always loved that! and speaking of fifth freedom, I wonder if they had traffic rights from BFS to RIX? I am 99% sure they did, although I am not sure there's much demand on the route…).



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 27, posted (6 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 997 times:

Hm... Belavia flies BUD-BEG, I think. I'm not sure if it's bookable.

User currently offlineTUGMASTER From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jul 2004, 686 posts, RR: 9
Reply 28, posted (6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 859 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 26):

You're kidding right...?

Ireland is absolutely flooded with Lithuanians....

To be sure...!


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