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What Is The Best Pax-Airplane For Cargo?  
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11781 times:

in my opinion the A340-300 is a great  airplane  for belly cargo.
it has many uld positions and also the contur for the uld´s is big.

comperation of passenger-seats and space for cargo no other aircraft is that good for cargo expect the combies of course.

regards
Avianca


Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1604 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11776 times:

MD-11

filler
filler


N670UW


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11770 times:

Quoting N670UW (Reply 1):
MD-11

filler
filler

and why? any facts?



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1604 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11761 times:

The MD-11 passenger version features an impressive 6,850 cubic feet of capacity in the lower hold, about 1,000 additional cubic feet over the A340-300, with similar passenger capacities.

From boeing.com:

Seating capacities on the standard airplane vary from 285 in a three-class arrangement to 410 in an all-economy configuration. Below the main deck, the MD-11 provides more space for containerized or palletized cargo after passenger bags are loaded than any other jetliner, yielding important additional revenue for its operators.

The MD-11 is also great as a pure freighter. It's been immensely popular with several cargo carriers, like FedEx and LH Cargo.

---

This is just my opinion, by the way.  



N670UW

[Edited 2005-03-27 01:19:06]

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 11749 times:

MD-11 is not really a good pure freighter, it is difficult to work with it... ask the operations departments of the cargo-airlines that use the MD11freighter... the costs are great but not all ....

here is a text from airbus.com

After allowing for full passenger baggage in containers, the A330-200 offers space for five underfloor freight pallets, more than in the 767s. With a similar cargo capacity, the A330-200 also carries 30 more passengers than the 7E7.
This increases to eight pallets in the A330/A340-300, again beating the nearest competitor; and ten pallets in the A340-600 – twice the capacity of the 747-400.

________________

I am also looking after a brochure from LH Cargo with the exact uld positions that I have...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3523 posts, RR: 66
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11722 times:

If the point of this thread is to decide on the best airplane with passengers on the main deck and the most excess cargo volume in the hold, no airplanes compare with the A346 and 773ER.

If its about the best passenger conversion of existing airplanes, the answer needs to categorized:

Lowest Ton-Mile Operating Costs: 777 Freighter
Most Payload: A380F
Outsize Payload: Nose Loading 747-400F
Longest Range at Full Payload: 777 Freighter

The last one requires a bit of qualification. If the A380F is loaded to its structural limit it has a longer range than the 777 Freighter at its structural limit. However, for the A380F be be near its volume limit at its structural limit, cargo density must be about 8 lb/cu.ft., a typical value for parcel carrier cargo. If the 777 Freighter is loaded to its volume limit with 8 lb/cu.ft. cargo, it will have a longer range. When the 777 Freighter structural and volume limits coincide, cargo density is about 10 lb/cu.ft., a typical value for general cargo carriers.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 11712 times:

Quoting N670UW (Reply 3):
The MD-11 passenger version features an impressive 6,850 cubic feet of capacity in the lower hold, about 1,000 additional cubic feet over the A340-300, with similar passenger capacities.

only for compare the lower holds.

A340-300 / 9 x 96inch Pallets + 1 x 88inch Pallet + 2 x LD3 Container
MD11 / 9 x 96inch Pallets + 2 x LD3 Container
(or also configuration for 10 x 88inch Pallets +2xLD3 Container)

+ each the compartment 5 holds round about 20cbm for the Airbus and for the MD11.

So the Airbus has more capacity on the lower holds for freight.

Second point, 6850cubic feet (194cbm) to fit into the MD11 lower deck is impossible. you can calculate max 10cbm each Pallet than max 100cbm + 2 xLD3 (6cbm) + 20cbm compartment 5 hold. so totally max 130cbm not 194cbm

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11697 times:

From what I heard from a friend who is working in the cargo department, he said that the MD-11 is a nightmare because they have to sort out the weight distribution very carefully, one mistake could cause the tail to collapse just like how KE's MD-11F tail collapsed.


Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 11687 times:

Quoting 9V-SVC (Reply 7):
From what I heard from a friend who is working in the cargo department, he said that the MD-11 is a nightmare because they have to sort out the weight distribution very carefully, one mistake could cause the tail to collapse just like how KE's MD-11F tail collapsed.

yes that is absolut true, as posted before the operation departments of the airlines hate the MD11Freighter, but the financial controler are happy!

The MD11freighter are mostly loaded with balance Pallets (filled up with concrete) in the front of the aircraft to avoid tail collapses...

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3523 posts, RR: 66
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11662 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 6):
Second point, 6850cubic feet (194cbm) to fit into the MD11 lower deck is impossible. you can calculate max 10cbm each Pallet than max 100cbm + 2 xLD3 (6cbm) + 20cbm compartment 5 hold. so totally max 130cbm not 194cbm

Why bother to discuss the A343 and MD-11 lower lobe capacity when the A346 and 773ER lower lobes hold 7331 cu.ft. and 7680 cu.ft. respectively?



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11655 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 9):
Why bother to discuss the A343 and MD-11 lower lobe capacity when the A346 and 773ER lower lobes hold 7331 cu.ft. and 7680 cu.ft. respectively?

can the A346 and 773ER carry more cargo? if you compare the passenger to cargo ratio to the A343 and the MD11?



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3523 posts, RR: 66
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 11623 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
can the A346 and 773ER carry more cargo? if you compare the passenger to cargo ratio to the A343 and the MD11?

To answer the question, let's do some comparison's using the Airbus site data to make sure everything is consistent.

A340-300 pax: 295
A340-600 pax: 380

An LD3 typically loads the bags of 30 pax.

A340-300 bag LD3: 10
A340-600 bag LD3: 13

Each LD3 has roughly 170 cu.ft. volume

A340-300 bag volume: 1700 cu.ft.
A340-600 bag volume: 2210 cu.ft.

A340-300 total lower lobe volume: 5751 cu.ft.
A340-600 total lower lobe volume: 7331 cu.ft.

A340-300 remaining cargo volume: 4051 cu. ft.
A340-600 remaining cargo volume: 5131 cu. ft.

Conclusion A340-600 has about 25% more cargo volume than the A340-300.



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineMDFlyer From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 11589 times:

Your info is wrong concerning the use of ballast concerning the MD-11. While it has to be carefully loaded and make use of ballast fuel in the aux and center tanks, etc. it makes excellent use of all available cargo positions in the upper and lower decks. I fly the cargo version MD-11 and love the plane. I think it's a great cargo hauler

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 11470 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):
Conclusion A340-600 has about 25% more cargo volume than the A340-300

ok the two planes seems to have the relativ same cargo space for each passengers...

Quoting MDFlyer (Reply 12):
Your info is wrong concerning the use of ballast concerning the MD-11.

no, it is not! These ballast-uld exicst for the MD11freighter. Ok it is possible the MD-11 is a good airplane, but really not a good freighter.

The conturs for the MD-positions are a nightmare, for example the positions for the C3 conturs are  crazy  , and the operatinal people are also not happy with the MD11freighter.

Carriers like UPS, Fedex have no problems due they mostly carry small packages, but for normal carriers like LHC the plane makes often problems regarding the sizes of the freight.

regards
Avianca



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineN757KW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 11423 times:

I use to work MD-11Fs at EVA Airways. It was not too hard to weight and balance the aircraft. Just have to be careful during loading and unloading to keep enough weight forward of the infamous Red Line in the aircraft (CG).

Now, you do have to remember about the contours on pallets. Just have to deal with it, not really that hard to do. The only thing I did not like was we would get poor payloads in winter for the return flights, usually between 60-70 tons.

I have not heard of ballast ULDs in the forward hold, mainly because we never used anything like that.

N757KW



"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5568 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11395 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
no, it is not! These ballast-uld exicst for the MD11freighter. Ok it is possible the MD-11 is a good airplane, but really not a good freighter.

I simply don't believe you. If it wasn't a good freighter why would LH cargo buy more and more MD 11 F?


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 11390 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 15):
I simply don't believe you. If it wasn't a good freighter why would LH cargo buy more and more MD 11 F

because they received the airplanes for low prices and the MD11 does not eat so much fuel...

I know many many LH Cargo staff here in Frankfurt, and no one says it is a good cargo aircraft, no they say the opposite.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2255 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11350 times:

Quoting MDFlyer (Reply 12):
Your info is wrong concerning the use of ballast concerning the MD-11. While it has to be carefully loaded and make use of ballast fuel in the aux and center tanks, etc. it makes excellent use of all available cargo positions in the upper and lower decks. I fly the cargo version MD-11 and love the plane. I think it's a great cargo hauler

right you are...I rarely see a ballast pallet being used, most of the time a nose gear strap is in place. Don't think only an MD-11 is vulnerable to sitting on its tail, the 727 had a tail stand that was put in place during loading and there's some other planes that used it too. Just think how far out of CG it will be loading rear to front, pax don't see this.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
Carriers like UPS, Fedex have no problems due they mostly carry small packages, but for normal carriers like LHC the plane makes often problems regarding the sizes of the freight.

you haven't seen alot of stuff they carry have you? F-1 cars, race horses. jet engines..etc.


User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3523 posts, RR: 66
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 11338 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 13):
ok the two planes seems to have the relativ same cargo space for each passengers...

Please define what you mean by best. What is the significance of cargo volume per passenger?



Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11314 times:

I think it depends on the loads needed. It seems as though (at least with UPS, DHL and FedEx) for small cargo: Boeing 727, some operate the 747, 757 and the DC-10/MD-11. I know that UA cargo is mostly their old converted DC-10s. However, I think if FedEx is using those (plus some A300s), than those are the best ones.

User currently offlineEilennaei From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11272 times:

I read that one of the reasons Finnair got the MD-11s and not any 767s in the 1990 was in the words of the CEO: "A 767 gets the passengers from Bangkok to Helsinki, but not their luggage. An MD-11 will haul the pax, freight, and a good amount of belly cargo as well." (may be a reference to a presently out-of-date version of the 767)

I'm wondering what the great difficulties would be?

-Eilennaei


User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24936 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11229 times:

I would guess that the 747 and the 777 are the best


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11126 times:

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 17):
you haven't seen alot of stuff they carry have you? F-1 cars, race horses. jet engines..etc.

Yes I have, but it is out of question that non integrator cargo airlines carry lot more oversized cargo than UPS, FedEx etc...

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 18):
Please define what you mean by best. What is the significance of cargo volume per passenger

for example a B767-300 carrys normally extra to the lugage 4 x PMC ULD´s with freight, and B763 (210-260) passengers, a A340-300 is loaded normally with 7 to 8 PMC ULD´s with 250-300 passengers.

For sure it depand all on the route etc...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
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