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Largest Cities Without Hubs  
User currently offlineCOERJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

What are the largest cities without an airline hub or reasonable focus city operation?

What are the smallest cities with a hub or reasonable focus city operation?

59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6654 times:
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Is it just me, or is this question kind of convoluted? If a city is not a hub but large enough for one or more carrriers to have quite a bit of service, does that make it a focus city?

Boston comes to mind... really nobody's hub, but provided with quite a bit of service by DL, AA, B6 and US.


User currently offlineCOERJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6621 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 1):
Boston comes to mind... really nobody's hub, but provided with quite a bit of service by DL, AA, B6 and US.

While boston is not monopolized by any airline such as ATL or DFW, it still has major focus city operations even including international service with AA.

I could consider San Antonio as a large city without hub service because it has a huge population but no airline has considered creating a hub due to the super hubs in IAH and DFW.


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6587 times:
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I guess I don't understand why you are excluding what you call focus city operations... doesn't that simply mean that there is a lot of business that comes with a "large" city.

User currently offlineN353SK From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6535 times:

I'm pretty sure SAN is the answer.

User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6503 times:

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
What are the largest cities without an airline hub or reasonable focus city operation?

SAN? Does SW have BWI? Not many of these left..

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
What are the smallest cities with a hub or reasonable focus city operation?

SLC, CVG, CLE, PDX?, SJU?



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineCOERJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6478 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):

A focus city is a city served by an airline with other destinations besides the airline's hubs. EWR is not a focus city for UA because they only serve ORD, IAD, DEN, SFO, etc. which are their hubs. SEA is a focus city for UA because in addition to their hubs they also serve HNL, ANC, NRT, etc.

The question is saying what are the largest cities that aren't a hub or focus city for an airline. And what are the smallest cities that are a hub or focus city for an airline.

Largest cities without hub or focus city:

San Antonio
Nashville (SW has large operations but they don't consider it a hub)
Columbus
Austin
Jacksonville
San Diego

Smallest cities with a hub or focus city:

Milwaukee
Cincinnati
Orlando
Indianapolis
Pittsburgh


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6478 times:
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Anyone remember when DAY was a hub for Piedmont?

User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6423 times:

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
San Antonio

Doesn't UA have a focus city there now.

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Columbus

Delta flies routes to florida, and NW does seasonally a Sat only flight CMH-MCO.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (8 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6413 times:

This question comes up at least once a month. General consensus is SAN and BOS.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2069 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6353 times:

How about Los Angeles? UA claims it as a hub, but their operations are only slightly larger than AA and WN carries more domestic passengers. I believe that UA was actually planning to create a hub at LAX and started marketing and signing corporate contracts calling it a hub, but the 1997 Asian financial crisis, along with LA refusing to add a new runway prevented a true hub from being formed. LAX is more like a big focus city. O&D is large and connecting traffic is small for a "hub." LAX is a hub if you believe UA. LGB is dominated by B6, but it does not operate like a hub nor does B6 call it such.

The same case could be made for New York, although several airlines claim it as a hub. There are probably some huge cities in the developing world and secondary cities in Europe that do not have hubs.

[Edited 2006-07-27 19:31:53]

User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6322 times:
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Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
San Antonio



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Doesn't UA have a focus city there now.

No, but Trans States has a small one, they just happen to have the UA code attached. But not a sizable operation to consider much of a 'focus city'.

I would say SAN and SAT, both over 1,000,000 pop (2000 census, city limits), are two biggest. BOS is only just under 600,000. CMH is even bigger than that (over 700,000).

[Edited 2006-07-27 19:22:07]


"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 12, posted (8 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6322 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 10):
LAX is more like a big focus city. O&D is large and connecting traffic is small for a "hub." LAX is a hub if you believe UA.

There is no definition for a "hub." If an airline considers an airport a "hub," it's a hub. LAX is a hub.

But, your comment shows why the question here is really irrelevant. You could easily make an argument that the two largest air markets in the world -- New York and Los Angeles -- do not have hub airports. This is because their location is simply ill-suited for a hub. ORD, DFW, STL, and MEM are all hubs because they are conveniently located in the middle of the country. JFK and LAX don't have this presence. They don't really need it, however, because their O&D markets are more than sufficient to create a significant amount of diverse air traffic.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2069 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Quoting Ssides (Reply 12):
There is no definition for a "hub." If an airline considers an airport a "hub," it's a hub. LAX is a hub.

There does seem to be a double edged sword related to declaring a hub. It is good for sales and marketing because you can sell corporate contracts in that city and say that since it is a hub, there are flight to many destinations. It is bad for the finance side, because investors and bankers see hubs as an expense and they do not want to see new ones added.

Incidently during UA's Ch. 11, there was pressure to kill a hub, either IAD or DEN. LAX was not really on the table because the creditors did not see it as a real hub either.


User currently offlineSK A340 From Sweden, joined Mar 2000, 845 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6244 times:

Quoting COERJ (Thread starter):
What are the smallest cities with a hub or reasonable focus city operation?

FI has it's hub at KEF, Keflavik, a very small city. I know it serves Reykjavik, but that is also a rather small city, some 200,000+ inhabitants.

/Micke


User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4941 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (8 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6170 times:

I would say WN has a focus city operation at SAN. They fly 100 flights per day, 34% of SAN's operations, and they fly to I think 16 destinations... I think that qualifies for a focus city unless I'm wrong...


Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 11):
would say SAN and SAT, both over 1,000,000 pop (2000 census, city limits), are two biggest. BOS is only just under 600,000. CMH is even bigger than that (over 700,000).

Again, people continually bring up these statistics (city population) like they matter. All that matters when looking at the size of a market is the metro population. According to these statistics, ATL with a population of under 500k is 1/2 the size of SAT. Add in the metro and the population increases to over 4 million, while SAT stays around 1M. Seattle is around 600k in the city, but 3.5M in the surrounding area. You really have to look at a metropolitan area and the trade area of the airport if you want a valid comparison.

According to your statistics, SAT is a bigger city and should have more service than BOS, ATL, or SEA. See the problem with this argument?


User currently offlineKrje1980 From Norway, joined Feb 2006, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

In Europe Berlin comes to mind. It is the capital of Germany as well as the largest city in the country. Still, the city has no hub, and hardly any long-haul flights connect directly there. You would have to go through Frankfurt or Munich for that (or, perhaps, Dusseldorf).

User currently offlineB6sea From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 340 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
PDX

No hub or focus city at PDX... that I can think of. I know AS has some operations there but they wouldn't call it a focus city i don't think. QX MAYBE.

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
SJU?

Pretty big city... Wikipedia says it has about 2 Million inhabitants in its metro area. And, with a couple very minor exceptions, it's the only major airport on the island of Puerto Rico, which has right around 4 million inhabitants, so I would say if anything that it's a pretty big airport.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 7):
Doesn't UA have a focus city there now

My thoughts exactly...

-Chans


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26370 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (8 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6026 times:

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Doesn't UA have a focus city there now.

United Express/Trans States, but the point is still made

If you go by metro area population and cachement, MSY is a rather big one without a hub or focus



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBnamaxx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Largest cities without hub or focus city:

San Antonio
Nashville (SW has large operations but they don't consider it a hub)
Columbus
Austin
Jacksonville
San Diego

Theoretically, WN does not have "hub" cities, or so they say, right? And they DO consider BNA a focus city, although they haven't really done much in the way of expansion here recently. They did add a number of frequencies to existing destinations in the spring, but they also cut service to several destinations altogether and reduced in others. They have been consistent at around 85 departures daily for quite a few years. That used to put BNA in their top 10, but I doubt it now.

I agree it's somewhat pointless to differentiate between what is a large and small city and what is a hub and what isn't. Having lived for many years in Dallas, I can attest that bigger is not always better. Yes DFW was built with O & D in mind. As a very frequent user of the airport, it WAS easy to get to the plane, but does it really matter when you have to put up with the often insufferable boarding to takeoff times and v.v? What is the point of flying DFW-AUS when the ground time is longer than the flight? Forget the miles. Since moving, I've connected at DFW many times and it isn't too bad now. I will still always remember the days awaiting flights and watching people deboard aircraft. You could always tell those who were connecting because they usually had that look of panic in their eyes. I'll take my dinky little airport over a major hub any day.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

Quoting COERJ (Reply 6):
Largest cities without hub or focus city:

San Antonio
Nashville (SW has large operations but they don't consider it a hub)
Columbus
Austin
Jacksonville
San Diego

Nashville is DEFINITELY a Southwest hub-esque city.. it is whatever Southwest considers their "hub".. but it is definitely something like that..
San Antonio is a Trans-State United Airlines focus city
Austin is an American Airlines focus city
Columbus is a Delta Airlines focus city
San Diego -- is it an Alaska focus city? it's somebodys..

Jacksonville, I think, is the only one of that list that isn't a focus city.



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5933 times:

YUL is a focus city of AC  Smile

User currently offlineHighFlyer9790 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 1241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5895 times:

Boston gets my vote. very open field for competition if you ask me because no one has a hub there, although a few airlines have a crew base there.


121
User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (8 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5895 times:

Quoting HighFlyer9790 (Reply 23):
Boston gets my vote.

Boston is a US/AA/DL focus city and a B6 hub, I do believe.



Aiming High and going far..
25 Post contains images MtnWest1979 : Well, since the question was 'what cities..', and not Metro area, I just went for the easy pop. figs. Hell, how about what area code is home to the b
26 RootsAir : Any large city in russia other than Moscow ...such as St. Petersburg
27 Gregarious119 : Say what? Columbus used to be a focus city/midwest hub for HP, but Delta wouldn't even think of this with CVG being right down I-71. Columbus has the
28 Post contains links Planespotting : here's a good list to use for reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_statistical_areas_by_population and here's a funny, provided by my
29 COERJ : PDX is a secondary hub for AS. I believe it has the largest operations after SEA even larger than ANC. Together with QX they serve 39 destinations so
30 Junction : DL Connection absorbed every route out of CMH that HP had in their "focus city" network except PHX and LAS.
31 CentPIT : I would also include CLE. I have a question, how would the above list appear if it was in order in terms of actual city size?
32 YULYMX : Orlando is pretty big airport for not a hub... the bigest city would be PIT who use to be a US air HUB
33 CentPIT : Thanks man!
34 Coronado990 : Should be but isn't. SEA-8 flights PDX-4 flts SJD-1 flt YVR-1 flt
35 CanadianNorth : Air North has its hub at Whitehorse Intl, with the city being home to about 23,000ish. Their maintenance facilities and offices are at the south end o
36 SLCUT2777 : Likewise I would have to include Salt Lake City on that list since it is smaller than Cleveland or any of the five above named cities. The best defin
37 CentPIT : Yes, I do agree!
38 Naritaflyer : Montreal YUL Is the answer. Large city of 3 million without a hub. Even United doesn't fly there.
39 ERJ170 : Per Delta's 2004 Transformation PLan and the city of columbus... On December 1, 2004 Delta Air Lines will start three daily flights to Hartford, Conn
40 Gregarious119 : Thanks for the good info, guys. I stand corrected....surprised, very - but corrected none the less. I noticed that that statement was from 12-1-04...
41 N1120A : The first part is correct but B6's operation is a focus city, not a hub. Their only true hub is JFK YUL is a secondary connecting hub for Air Canada.
42 SW733 : Not sure exactly, but remember that there is more than just the actual city size - it's the metro area. Case in point: In Missouri, Kansas City is th
43 PavlovsDog : The Rhine-Ruhr area of Germany has three airports (Cologne, Dusseldorf and Dortmund) none of which is a hub for anybody. 12-14 million people live in
44 San747 : Isn't CGN a Germanwings hub and DUS an LTU hub? And I think Dortmund is an Easyjet focus city, or at least base...
45 Rampart : Honolulu's metro population is smaller than all the "small" hub cities listed above, and it hosts both Hawaiian and Aloha (and now Go). -Rampart
46 Boysteve : Looking at their website yes, in terms of destinations served it's their largest hub. I think it is It's at least a base...
47 PavlovsDog : Neither Germanwings nor EasyJet are hub oriented airlines. In addition neither really has more flights from those airports than does Southwest at many
48 Jumbopilot : The surrounding of Berlin is totally weak, there are too less people living there. So there is no potential for an airline and I believe nothing will
49 Post contains links Boysteve : Easyjet have bases from which each aircraft may take several return trips per day to and from. As far as I am aware Dortmund is one of these bases so
50 Jetboy319 : Alaska Airlines indeed considers PDX a hub, and even more so when Horizon is included. Pulling info from the current schedule, I counted flights opera
51 JJJ : LED is a hub for Pulkovo, several other Russian cities also are hubs for other airlines like Saravia in Saratov, etc.
52 Post contains links ANCFlyer : However: Lets not forget the AS Commuter Carrier at ANC. Era Aviation and Pen Air. Both have extensive operations throughout Alaska. If you're going
53 Mozart : Largest: any city in China other than PEK, SHA and CAN. Smallest: Luxembourg. Hub for Luxair (yes, they offer and market transfer connections). Popula
54 Jetboy319 : Considering this thread subject, that is fair enough ... however, the reason I included QX is because it is part of the Alaska Air Group while Era an
55 MCOflyer : MCO is a focus city for DL, B6, WN,and FL. US may a have a focus city (I think so) but unsure. They occupy 50-59 on airside 3. MCOflyer
56 PavlovsDog : Why was this thread moved here? Seems like a certain way to kill a topic.
57 Swissgabe : Very reasonable! However, some of the other cities do have local hubs. But I'm sure the answer could be found in China.
58 Post contains links PavlovsDog : Osaka comes to mind too. According to World Gazetteer the Osaka area has 17.5 million inhabitants. KIX is a minor intra Japan hub at best.
59 Alaska737 : i would consider SAN a WN hub, if it isnt then what is? roughly 1/3 of all traffic, yes that is a hub or focus city whichever. ok you cant say that A
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