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Airports "In The Shadow" Of A Bigger Air  
User currently offlinePhxtravelboy From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 11805 times:

Hi everyone, I have a theory that some of the airports out there really don't get as much service as they could do to the fact they are "in the shadow" of a larger airport close by. I'm not talking about airports within one large metro area such as LA with Ont, Sna, etc.
I'm thinking of Mke and it's proximity to Ord; only 1 hour drive away. Mke has been expanding as of late with a new extension to a concourse, and record pax numbers, but only NW and DL of the "big 6" fly mainline equipment there. Several people from WI drive to Ord for more convenient schedules and these people could be kept in WI if Mke had more service. I think the airlines don't add more service to Mke due to it's proximity to Ord.
I think that to an extent Pdx is in the shadow of Sea, Tus to Phx (where I live), San to Lax. Any others? Agree or disagree?

101 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZudnic From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 11790 times:

Well, PVD and MHT are so close they market themselves as Boston airports. They serve people located in Boston's south and north suburbs (as well as local city populations) - it seems to me that they both court liesure travelers.

User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 16 hours ago) and read 11790 times:

Quoting Phxtravelboy (Thread starter):
I think the airlines don't add more service to Mke due to it's proximity to Ord.

Maybe to a small extent but I believe that MKE is adequately served for a city its size. I will however give you that the case for MKE is certainly not helped by having UA and AA both hubbed at ORD and WN having a sizable focus at MDW.


User currently offlineThenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 15 hours ago) and read 11758 times:

YOW could definately have more traffic if it werent for YUL or YYZ.

Same thing goes for YEG, with YYC so close.

AK



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4097 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 11628 times:

DEN-COS
DTW-TOL
PHX-TUS
ELP-LRU
RDU-GSO
CLE-CAK
PHL-ABE
SLC-PVU
LAX-SAN to a degree


User currently offlineTPAnx From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 11612 times:

TPA and PIE..about 15 miles apart.
TPAnx



I read the news today..oh boy
User currently offlineFlamedude707 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 11573 times:

Does SJC-SFO count?

bla bla bla, need to make post longer.........



Time you enjoy wasting, is not wasted.
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 11566 times:

On a smaller scale, there's MKG (Muskegon, MI) and GRR (Grand Rapids, MI)

For years, there was a more significant disparity between the service at GRR and at MKG. GRR had more mainline aircraft and MKG was always regional. The airports themselves are roughly 50 miles apart.

For years, MKG had the service of three (sometimes four) airlines ... usually to Chicago, Milwaukee, and Detroit. Around 1995 or 1996, American downgraded their operations in GRR from mainline to all-Eagle, and subsequently deemed the Eagle service to MKG redundant and pulled out. Eagle was replaced by Great Lakes, which initially flew their independent operation into MDW, but was quickly changed over to United Express service back into ORD.

Great Lakes lasted until the fall of 2002 when they pulled out of the market (and ultimately the entire region).

Since then MKG has had only the other two airlines - Skyway into MKE and Mesaba into DTW - and has not yet landed a third carrier. In the meantime, GRR has become an increasingly regional market, with more carriers operating RJs rather than mainline, the major exceptions being NW and a handful of UA mainline flights (I also believe DL still has their lone mainline flight into GRR as well).

This is quite possibly an excellent example of the "regionalization" of the industry as far as aircraft utilization goes, and how it can affect smaller airports.

MKG has been sustaining itself well with YX and NW, and many travelers prefer MKG as a smaller airport and easier to get in and out fo than GRR. The downside, though, to MKG is the lack of travel options. However, with Skyway upgrading gradually to the 328JETs, it will only be a matter of time before they replace the BE1s into here and help capacity a fair bit. And with Northwest and Mesaba both on shaky ground as reorganization moves along, if the worst were to happen, MKG would be stuck with one lone carrier, unless they act on getting a third carrier lined up. [Most likely to me would be CO out of CLE since they do offer smaller aircraft - such as CommutAir's 1900s and future Dash-8s] that could get a route started with less dependency on higher numbers than larger aircraft. Another great, though unlikely, coup would be landing US since they left GRR.

It's really anyone's guess as to what the growth of these airports will be as time comes. GRR will always be the larger airport, but whether MKG gets any more service (or any less) is anyone's guess.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 11545 times:

MAN and LPL although no scouser will admit it!

PHL and ACY

PHL and TTN

PHL and ILG

[Edited 2006-08-26 03:43:23]

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9259 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 11523 times:

No one said...

IAD,
PHL,
JFK, and PIT...

I guess PIT isn't suffering from the close proximity of those larger markets... It's solely a "decaying money hole" of a market...

Wait... another market in the shadows of PHL, JFK, BWI/IAD even more so than PIT...

M...D...T...

[Edited 2006-08-26 03:55:22]


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineMUCflieger From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 11491 times:

MHG - FRA
AGB - MUC


..tbc


User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 11453 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 9):
I guess PIT isn't suffering from the close proximity of those larger markets... It's solely a "decaying money hole" of a market...

PIT isn't in the shadows of another airport. I think PIT is in the shadows of US at PHL though. I am by no means saying PIT should be like PHL, I am just saying PIT is no longer in its glory days of being a larger operation than PHL.


PIT is fine...



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineUsnseallt82 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 4891 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 11429 times:

AUS and SAT. Two medium-sized airports that cancel each out and prevent any real expansion.

Then with IAH and DFW in the vicinity, there won't be any real push to try and expand them.



Crye me a river
User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 11 hours ago) and read 11403 times:

BTS and VIE. Only about 40km close to each other. BTS - close to 2 mil pax per year. VIE, I guess 15+mil paseengers per year.

There many Slovakians flying via VIE because there are very few network carriers flying to BTS: OK and LH only. Yet, there is a starting stream of Austrians flying from BTS due to NE and FR operating from there.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineAsstChiefMark From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 11 hours ago) and read 11384 times:

MSP and STP. About 6 miles apart. STP is the green area in the upper right corner of this photo.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Scott Mulhollan



Mark


User currently offlineMtnWest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2478 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 11306 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Thenoflyzone (Reply 3):
Same thing goes for YEG, with YYC so close

Well, they are not that close to each other. About like Salt Lake City,UT and Idaho Falls,ID.

I'd add SCK to SFO/OAK, FOE to MCI.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 11285 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 4):
LAX-SAN to a degree

SAN is shadowed by it's terrain which makes it dependent on LA.


User currently offlineUA777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 11268 times:

Quoting Flamedude707 (Reply 6):
Does SJC-SFO count?

No. SJC is in a class of its own with it's own breed of travelers. San Jose to San Francisco is a long drive and with the high-tech industry next door, domestic, and even international, service works fine on it's own. While AA has/will close SJC-NRT, it has been a route that has proved well for AA and one that they wouldn't even try at SFO, let alone their one flight a day at LAX.

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 15):
I'd add SCK to SFO/OAK, FOE to MCI.

SCK is an entirely different breed of airport compared to the two. SFO handles both domestic and international. High Asian routes and trans-pacific with it's handful of European flights. Domestic to about everywhere in the country with CO, F9, UA, AA, and US.

OAK is very much a domestic airport for LLC's. WN and JetBlue find hubs here due to the cheaper cost to fly into OAK over SFO. You will also find Federal Express and UPS hubs here. Shipping is a major traffic form for OAK. Lastly, OAK caters to business travelers. They have two separate runways that, when the weather provides, can be used by all business jets with the ramp just one taxiway over. They also allow ease for cessna's (and other's alike) and also have flight schools in the FBOs. If the price to land at SFO doesn't drive you away, the traffic and airspace factors don't allow this that often. In regards to SCK, AA has service and if I'm correct so will Mexicana.

I apologize for any errors.

Thanks,

Matt



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9488 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 11249 times:

St. Louis Lambert presides over Belleville/Mid America.

Indianapolis triumphs over Lafayette receiving pretty much any type of regular commuter express type of service.

Bloomington - Normal has somewhat of a precedence over Champaign Williard. While Champaign & Peoria are still somewhat holding their own, Springfield's airport definitely has lagged, as has Decatur.

Meanwhile while 60 miles apart, I'm sure the proximity of Tampa and St. Petersburg over Sarasota affects Sarasota to an extent.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 9 hours ago) and read 11215 times:

EWR is an airport that was originally the airport for the NY City area (until about 1940 with LGA) then Idlewild/JFK, then EWR came back as a major airport in the early 1990's offering a broad range of international and more USA domestic service than JFK even into today.

User currently offlineTrndskywrd From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 9 hours ago) and read 11154 times:

DAB with its proximity to MCO / JAX. The same applies to MLB as well. DAB/MLB certainly have room for more competition but pax will sacrifice the drive to save money.

User currently offlineSjcrrpax From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 11086 times:

How about DAL and DFW  rotfl 

User currently offlineMainMAN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 2103 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 11048 times:

Amsterdam and Rotterdam.

Rotterdam is sometimes marketed as Amsterdam/Rotterdam, which surely must drive Rotterdammers nuts.


User currently offlineMCIGuy From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1936 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 11019 times:

MCI - MKC
MKC was once the main airport for KC but it has shorter runways and a large river on two sides. It does get a lot of business traffic because of it's proximity to downtown, but taking off in a 172 to the south can be a little strange on hot day (tall buildings).  Big grin
MCI is a much larger and nicer airport, but it's location isn't all that convenient.



Airliners.net Moderator Team
User currently offlineBdl2dca From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 10869 times:

Quoting Zudnic (Reply 1):
Well, PVD and MHT are so close they market themselves as Boston airports.

Don't forget ORH, which an hour from each PVD, BOS and BDL so therefore, nobody in Central MA will fly out of there. My parents grew up in Auburn, and my grandparents used to fly out of BDL because it was easier to get to BDL than ORH because of the road connections even though it is like 10-15 times the distance.

And I would also add that BDL is in the shadow of BOS and JFK for trans-atlantic service. BDL could easily warrant one or two nonstops to Europe based on the cachement area and the industry in western New England, but because there are no nonstops to Europe, a lot of travelers go to either BOS or JFK to catch a flight rather than making a connection out of BDL.



146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
25 AUA747 : I would have to say DAB and MCO. Only DL and CO serves DAB. DAB has been struggling to get service of airlines. MCO is less then 1hr drive and the far
26 Stirling : No way. At over 12 million passengers a year, (And growing) Portland is a self-contained market. Airlines offer unique services into PDX that are not
27 FWAERJ : Right now, FWA (my hometown airport) is struggling in the shadow of IND, which is 2 hrs away. Over the past few years, we've lost a lot of service. Fi
28 Spetouss : Talk about England for a change, what about Coventry (CVT) and Birmngham (BHX), only 20 miles apart.
29 YLWbased : what about HKG and MFM
30 TPAnx : Methinks service out of BDL probably had a lot more to do with that than access..290 up a couple of exits to the airport isn't THAT bad..Webster Squa
31 Comet4b : Hi Noflyzone,I may be wrong but I think your comments(tongue in cheek I hope) were totally lost on the masses.So much for general geography knowledge.
32 TPAnx : Or Canadian airport codes.. TPAnx
33 Oakjam : So with the topic Airports in the shadow of bigger Airports, I guess OAK counts cause SFO is only 12 miles away across the bay. OAK gets 14 million pa
34 Flycmh2009 : How about Ohio? Does anyone here think that CMH and DAY are being held back by the hubs at CVG and CLE. There's a strong market for a lot of places ou
35 CentPIT : The bigger question now is, why don't they add PIT-FWA with 2 daily DH8? The flight would do fine.
36 N5716B : How does ABE fit into this particular theme? Last time I went up to Bethlahem, PA, I had to fly into PHL because ABE was upwards of $200 more. Even w
37 PavlovsDog : YNG-Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport in Eastern Ohio serves a metropolitan area of over 700,000. It's a poor rust belt city half-way between Clevela
38 IdaBoy : I seccond Idaho Falls, Idaho, we loose all kinds of people to SLC, and the Pocatello is in the Idaho Falls shadow. Salt Lake really messes with Southe
39 N9512c : What about HOU and IAH...?[Edited 2006-08-26 17:45:42]
40 SLCUT2777 : A MUCH better example of this is SCL-PVU. Delta's big hub at SLC clearly suppresses PVU's ability to add commercial service. There is demand to do th
41 SWF : SWF and..... EWR-JFK-LGA BDL ALB I've flown from all except ALB for lower fares. A lot of people I know go to ALB.
42 USADreamliner : Thank you for posting the three letter code and also the name of the airport. Most people just use the 3 letter code, and not everybody knows what ai
43 Pillowtester : It's funny that MDW and ORD are so close together, you can literally see them from each other, and yet they both have tremendous, crowded amounts of s
44 SLCUT2777 : SLC makes service to SE viable! I don't think UA would as seriously consider service on EMB-120s or CRJs to either Idaho Falls or Pocatello from DEN
45 JoKeR : DXB and SHJ, only a few kilometers apart
46 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : One other airport that gets overlooked for service due to its proximity to the US border as well as only being two hours south from YYC is Lethbridge
47 N908AW : How bout RST/MSP. As of the study in 2003 (hasn't improved much since then), MSP gets 61% of the RST market.
48 Rdwelch : I thought someone would have done MIA-FLL by now. Gus.
49 MAH4546 : Why? FLL sees 20M+ passengers a year, has more domestic airlines, and carriers more domestic passengers and domestic O&D than Miami does.
50 Rdwelch : Then we'll do it the other way around. One has to be bigger than the other. Think outside the box. Gus.
51 Gilesdavies : How about Luton (LTN)? Luton has to compete against three far larger airports in the London area, with better facilities... Where Luton handles 9.5 mi
52 Jetjack74 : DTW: YIP, and DET. Boths within 10 miles of Metro. I don't know if it was mentioned yet, but SEA and BFI. The approach for Sea-Tac is right over Boein
53 N62NA : Add GRQ (Groningen), the major city in the eastern part of The Netherlands to the AMS factor. You can't even get a connecting flight from AMS to Gron
54 N1120A : It is entirely too far from YOW to YYZ to ever think people would drive that, but YUL is a definate alternate. If YMX had been successful, that would
55 SLCUT2777 : I think if DL had to make the choice over again 25 years after the fact they would have gone for a hub at CMH, or IND over CVG. Both CMH and IND have
56 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Last year WN tried a "go around" the Port Authority of Seattle and tried to get exclusive service into BFI that made AS, UA, AA, NW and DL have a maj
57 Supa7E7 : FLL is a big airport but it's in MIA's shadow. LGA is an important airport in JFK's shadow. Then there's Gatwick, rarely celebrated but a very major a
58 1337Delta764 : Albuquerque and Santa Fe. However, I have heard a rumor in a past thread that Delta Connection (SkyWest) wants to start service to Santa Fe from Salt
59 AirTranTUS : I'll disagree on the TUS-PHX pair. UA is cancelling its TUS-PHX-IAD route in favor of having one nonstop to IAD from both cities. UA will serve TUS an
60 Stirling : True. Luton has to be my least favorite airport ever....which is saying alot when one considers LHR right down the road. There is a difference betwee
61 ONTFlyer : Perhaps you were thinking of G4 and later this year, Aeromexico to Guadalajara and Morelia??
62 FATFlyer : AM at Stockton (SCK) does not look like it will happen any time soon. SCK has not been able to get permission to open a FIS.
63 N1120A : I disagree here. In fact, before jetBlue, JFK was in La Guardia's shadow in many ways. No major carrier has service to Stockton. Only Allegiant (whic
64 Gkirk : Prestwick --> Glasgow Durham Tees Valley --> Newcastle Leeds/Bradford & Liverpool --> Manchester
65 Tom12 : Glasgow (GLA) pretty much took the majority of service from Prestwick (PIK). PIK gets a ot of 747 cargo traffic now which ispretty cool. Tom
66 B6pilot2b : JFK/LGA/EWR vs FRG/ISP
67 YOW : YOW is only a 40 plane ride to YUL and 1hr to YYZ, while YEG is only 45 mins from YYC, that is what AK is referring to by saying 'close' and by North
68 N1120A : As a North American from a place where I am definately used to driving (Los Angeles), I am well aware of distances. I am, however, talking about how
69 SLCUT2777 : Quite interestingly for many years Santa Fe resisted the idea of having commercial service. Until 10-15 years ago Provo likewise resisted commercial
70 Jamincan : As for how driving limits service, I'm thinking of YHM, YXE and YKF. Especially YKF. That said, it seems somewhat arbitrary to limit the mode of tran
71 Post contains images KPDX : PDX and SLE definetly! Salem is about 40 miles away from Portland, and Salem is the second biggest town in Oregon! KPDX
72 IdaBoy : SLC does bring alot of service to Idaho Falls, but if it was just another 2 or 3 hours away, Idaho Falls might see service simmilar to Missoula. And
73 MtnWest1979 : I was not breaking it down in terms of types of service , just service in general. If Stockton was 300 miles from the nearest big city/airport, they
74 SJCRRPAX : SFO-SJC distance is 33 miles. SFO distance to Market Street SF 13 miles and is served directly by BART, so SFO is actually closer to SF than SJ. Almo
75 BillReid : Both these two airports are managed by Schiphol so you'd have to say that leackage is not an issue, its a plan. There are thousands That one is even
76 SLCUT2777 : And those 2x to DEN is all you would continue to get from UA Express. If the population center for PVU were located where CDC is, they would get alot
77 UA777222 : Are you kidding me? 101 is a parking lot all rush hours during all days of the week. SFO to San Francisco is less than 15min. Getting to wherever you
78 Flyb : And that is why there are 19 flights daily between YEG and YYC? I couldn't disagree with you more.
79 EVA777SEA : I guess YVR is "in the shadow" of SEA in terms of domestic/US traffic but vice versa for INTL flights.
80 Yow : Even with only factoring in driving, which is an unfair assessment in my opinion, Ottawa still loses over 100,000 enplaned pax per year to YUL by som
81 N1120A : We are talking about service really and single connects are not an issue for airlines, nor a reason to say an airport lives in a shadow. Having 19 fl
82 SJCRRPAX : San Jose is not a fringe location just because you have never been there does not make it "fringe". From the SJC website, San Jose is California's 3r
83 OldAeroGuy : How about SEA and BFI? At sunset in the winter months, BFI is almost literally in the shadow of SEA (weather permitting).
84 Post contains images SLCUT2777 : Bingo! The 49th dictates the service availability of both. It will amaze you the number of Canucks who drive down from metro Vancouver to SEA-TAC to
85 Jetjack74 : was mentioned. And I forgot to remark on it's freighter base for 360 Cargo, DHL, UPS, and AEX. Well, King County executive Ron Sims put the brakes on
86 MAH4546 : Think outside the box for what? Both are major airports, both have a huge selection of airlines. It's like saying LGA is in JFK's shadow or DCA is in
87 Longhaulheavy : The reverse is also true. I know people who live in Chicago's north suburbs who would much rather fly out of MKE than ORD. With NW and YX having majo
88 Texan : It's an interesting question. A rebuttal question would be, if it were not for the nearby airports, would the airports "in the shadow" truly have mor
89 Trndskywrd : Actually, DAB is notw served by DL, CO, and UA. Daily nonstop service to ATL, EWR, and IAD respectively. CO has seasonal service to CLE and UA has se
90 GQfluffy : How about LAX and LGB (Long Beach)????
91 Stylo777 : in Istanbul there are IST (Atatürk Airport) and the smaller one SAW (Sabiha Gökcen). I am sure that SAW will expand in the near future...
92 SLCUT2777 : Beyond the traffic on I-5 (which is bad I agree), it would of been WN monopolizing an inter-city airport and essentially having exclusive service or
93 Dnl65 : After all this interesting speculation perhaps one or two of you may be interested in what actually happens. If so, try to score a copy of "Airport Sy
94 RickYHM : YHM Hamilton International is about 50 km from YYZ Toronto Pearson Airport. It has always had a problem getting flights even though their it's primary
95 Rdwelch : I'm just going by what the Thread Starter stated. They're a half an hour away or so and one is bigger than the other. I know they co-exist well, but
96 MAH4546 : But that isn't true. When most people think of South Florida, they say "I'm going to fly to FLL, because the fares are lower". The fact is that FLL h
97 Rdwelch : I see your point, but in terms of total amount of traffic, domestic and international, where does FLL rank as opposed to MIA? I'm not a good stats ma
98 MAH4546 : FLL carriers roughly around 21M passengers, MIA is around 31M passengers. FLL carriers around 18-19M domestic passengers, MIA carries around 14-15M d
99 Rdwelch : [quote=MAH4546,reply=98]FLL carriers roughly around 21M passengers, MIA is around 31M passengers. FLL carriers around 18-19M domestic passengers, MIA
100 Arturo88 : I really think that SAT and HKG could have more traffic.
101 Usair320 : Thats good to here I am a Santa Fe resident and all we have are the Great Lakes B1900's to DEN.
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