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Topic: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-02-04 05:32:41 and read 10982 times.

N610G, a US registered and privately owned Boeing 757 aircraft was forced to land at Mumbai airport last week after intruding into Indian airspace without clearance.

The aircraft had taken off from Karachi in Pakistan and had filed a flight plan for Male in the Maldives, but was picked up by IAF radar over the coast of Gujarat state in India - a significant diversion from the flight path. Air Force jets were scrambled and the aircraft forced to land at Mumbai airport where it was boarded by commandos of the Central Industrial Security Force.

A search of the aircraft revealed live ammunition rounds as well as other suspicious items. The crew have been detained and are being interrogated by intelligence agencies and the Air Force.

This is the second instance in the last week where a US aircraft has been caught intruding into Indian airspace. A US military aircraft was forced to land at Chennai on Friday after being detected off course by radar.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: GuyBetsy1
Posted 2003-02-04 05:36:02 and read 10915 times.

Funny why such news items are not reported by the US media. Is it because it will be too embarrassing for them?

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: AA61hvy
Posted 2003-02-04 05:42:41 and read 10898 times.

No, I don't think its because it is too embarrassing for the US, they may have not heard about it yet.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-02-04 05:44:19 and read 10893 times.

The aircraft, owned by a US company called CoombCo, was on a private flight from Karachi to Male when the incident occurred. According to a news channel, One of the 11 crew members was also found to be carrying arms and ammunition.

Violations of Indian airspace by Western civilian and military aircraft have been steadily increasing over the years. A Qantas 747 aircraft departing Mumbai, had illegally flown over what was restricted airspace at Trombay housing the Atomic Research Center. Another Ukrainian An-32 chartered by a British national airdropped arms and ammunition over the eastern Indian town of Purulia (allegedly to North Eastern Militants) before their Antonov was forcelanded by IAF Migs. The British national, Peter Bleach, who is now serving his sentence in an Indian jail, is known to have links with British intelligence agencies. Just last month, a “Lufthansa Cargo” jet overflew the “no-fly-zone” over New Delhi, a place where the PM and President of India, as well as the leader of the Opposition live. Also a US Naval aircraft overflew sensitive areas housing miltary locations near the city of Chennai as it came into land.

Comment:While it is good to see that these airspace violations are being detected, there is a possibility that these detections are only the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
The support provided by Britain and some of our neighbours to Christian terrorists in the North East is well known. Considering that India is fighting foreign supported insurgents on atleast 2 fronts, its important that we cover our flanks and ensure maximum security of our airspace and our borders. I feel that the Indian Govt should strengthen our air-defenses even further. I think we should create “zero-tolerance zones” over which any aircraft that enters illegally should be simply shot down. That is the only way we can nip these incidents in the bud. Right now, I think we are too lax in this respect.

Another point is that US Intelligence agencies seem to have reverted to using Civilian airlines for collection of intelligence. While I understand that collection of intelligence is important, I don’t think its fair to use civilian airliners as a cover to do so. Havent the lessons from KAL007 been learnt yet? Korean airliners have been used by the US intelligence agencies in the past to snoop on Soviet defenses and atleast 2 such jets have been shot down causing civilian casualties. How fair is that?

The Qantas 747 that overflew the BARC reactors was nearly shot down by the air defense guns placed there. Who would have been responsible for the loss of so many lives? The Indian Govt for protecting its national interests? Or the Western agencies concerned who put innocent people at risk? The cloak and dagger nature of the agencies means that they would escape scrutiny!

My question is: Why should innocent civilians be put in the firing line in this manner?


-Roy

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Jr
Posted 2003-02-04 05:46:19 and read 10871 times.

Yeah right they haven't heard about it. Its called intelligence in case you didn't know... just don't seem to have acted intelligently on those two occasions noted... accidents probably ... but still ...

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-02-04 05:56:00 and read 10841 times.

Another point is that US Intelligence agencies seem to have reverted to using Civilian airlines for collection of intelligence.

Roy, with all due respect I don't think the US agencies need to use civilian airliners for intelligence overflights when they have spy satellites that can read you license plate.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Alpha 1
Posted 2003-02-04 05:57:29 and read 10836 times.

I think we should create “zero-tolerance zones” over which any aircraft that enters illegally should be simply shot down.

Sure, Roy. And when the Indian Air Force shoots down a fully pack 744, simply because of a navigation error or malfunction, what will you say then? That makes you no better than the Russians shooting down the Korean Air 747, does it?

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-02-04 06:06:17 and read 10805 times.

And when the Indian Air Force shoots down a fully pack 744, simply because of a navigation error or malfunction, what will you say then?

If a 744 with a nav system malfunction strays over a nuclear reactor, the smartest and most merciful solution would probably be to shoot them down.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-02-04 06:07:45 and read 10802 times.


Roy, with all due respect I don't think the US agencies need to use civilian airliners for intelligence overflights when they have spy satellites that can read you license plate.


Exactly sean, they dont need to do that. Spy satellites have been around from the late 60's and agencies can make use of them. But as the KAL007 case shows civilian airlines HAVE been used to collect some kinds of intelligence, and i feel it is wrong.


That makes you no better than the Russians shooting down the Korean Air 747, does it?

Navigation error is one thing, but when an aircraft intentionally strays over sensitive areas then? ANd why do you ignore the issue of agencies using civilian aircraft? I have no problem with intellignce collection. Its the means that I am questioning here.

-Roy

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: HlywdCatft
Posted 2003-02-04 06:08:14 and read 10798 times.

If it was an intellegence flight why would it take off from Pakistan (where Bin Ladin is thought to be) and fly over India which is thought of as a US ally?

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Clickhappy
Posted 2003-02-04 06:09:02 and read 10796 times.

how much aid do we give these bastards?

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Jhooper
Posted 2003-02-04 06:09:40 and read 10792 times.

First, the U.S. media has been preoccupied with more important developments in recent news.

I feel that the Indian Govt should strengthen our air-defenses even further. I think we should create “zero-tolerance zones” over which any aircraft that enters illegally should be simply shot down.

Perhaps we should just shoot down Indian airliners in U.S. airspace who don't comply with ATC instructions. Get real folks! How brutal can you be?!?!? Do you want to make a political point, at the expense of hundreds of innocent lives on the air (and on the ground)? What if an airplane had an emergency and lost communications capability and had no choice but to land at the nearest suitable airport (in India). Do you want that blood on your hands?

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Alpha 1
Posted 2003-02-04 06:11:34 and read 10786 times.

If a 744 with a nav system malfunction strays over a nuclear reactor, the smartest and most merciful solution would probably be to shoot them down.

In that case, or in the case of something that could be more sinister, Sean, like a hijack/suicide takeover of an aircraft, I wholeheartedly agree with you and Roy in that respect. But Roy just made it a blanket statement: shoot them down. Under his blanket statement, it wouldn't matter if they were over the furthest tip of India, or over a nuclear reactor, his response would be the same, and I think that goes a bit too far.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: United777
Posted 2003-02-04 06:13:30 and read 10785 times.

Wasn't there a accident recently where a Lufthansa Airlines Boeing 747-400 flight to Frankfurt flew off course and flew right over the Prime Minster of India's house?

The pilots that were flying the 744 are now banned from flying to India.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Trvlr
Posted 2003-02-04 06:14:06 and read 10778 times.

bastards? bin laden? what???

Calm down people! Nobody knows the important facts yet...nationality of the citizens, what items there were exactly, what has happened at this point.

Talk about hysteria! Then again, we all know what dangers Qantas 744s pose to the world!

Aaron G.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2003-02-04 06:18:15 and read 10758 times.

Why would the West want to learn anything from India? India has nothing we need.

The scrambling of Indian fighters because of a straying Western civilian airliner over India seems extremely excessive. Just Indian bravado. Not sure whether it's more funny, silly, or sad.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: United777
Posted 2003-02-04 06:20:35 and read 10749 times.

Clickhappy - Don't you think your comments are a little too extreme. It's not like India shot down your aircraft. I am sure if the US saw an Iraqi or North Korean or even a Canadian aircraft entering US airspace with out permission it would do the same. This is the second time in a few days it has happened also.

The US and India have a very close relationship both military and economic. I think a few months ago the US Navy and Indian Navy did training missions a few months past of the Chennai coast.


Also some aircraft like C-17 have stopped in India on the way to Middle East for fuel so it's not like India does not like US military aircraft in it's airspace.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: United777
Posted 2003-02-04 06:24:12 and read 10743 times.

Yyz717 - US learns a lot from India. Indian people that move to US are one of the most intelligent people. Hey there was a girl in the space shuttle.

You will be surprised how much US does do business with India with medicine, science and technology among many other things.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-02-04 06:25:02 and read 10741 times.

The scrambling of Indian fighters because of a straying Western civilian airliner over India seems extremely excessive.

The scrambling of Indian fighters after an aircraft taking off from PAKISTAN enters Indian airspace illegally is definitely not excessive.

In other news, the Captain of the aircraft has been identified as John Burg of Nashville, TN.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Alpha 1
Posted 2003-02-04 06:29:08 and read 10725 times.

In other news, the Captain of the aircraft has been identified as John Burg of Nashville, TN.

I KNEW it!! I knew that's what Roy's problem always was, but could never prove it: when it comes to the U.S., he's got a Burg up his ass!  Big thumbs up


 Wink/being sarcastic

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: United777
Posted 2003-02-04 06:32:37 and read 10712 times.

Here is the picture of the Boeing 757-200 at the Mumbai Airport.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/030203/137/20rk8.html

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-02-04 06:35:27 and read 10707 times.



Reuters photo linked from http://in.yimg.com/xp/reuters_ids_new/20030203/3422724138.jpg

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2003-02-04 08:00:51 and read 10624 times.

US learns a lot from India. Indian people that move to US are one of the most intelligent people.

"Some of the most intelligent people" ?? What does this mean? Are you saying that Indian emigrants to the US are more intelligent than American? If they're so intelligent, why can't they solve India's poverty?

Hey there was a girl in the space shuttle.

Yeah....that "Indian" girl got into space on Western, not Indian, technology.



Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2003-02-04 08:39:46 and read 10594 times.

Don't worry folks... Roy's got brown eyes because he's full of it.


My dad captains NW 744's to Bombay regularly, just to spy on you, Roy.

Why don't we shoot down all the indian and arabic student pilots over here that screw up ATC instructions all the time b/c they cant speak a craps worth of english, while we're at it. Stupid stupid stupid.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Fly-K
Posted 2003-02-04 08:44:40 and read 10582 times.

With this kind of attitude, no wonder it's one of the most unstable regions of this planet...

When AI plowed through the ILS at FRA a few years ago because of pilot error, maybe it should have been shot down before too?

GET REAL...

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: 777236ER
Posted 2003-02-04 09:46:56 and read 10525 times.

Bastard Indians eh?

Imagine if a 757 illegally entered US airspace. Would the Americans just let it on its merry way? Of course not. Don't be fucking stupid and start blaming the Indians.

Why would the West want to learn anything from India? India has nothing we need.

With your head so far up your ass, how do you manage to read what other people post? Just because a culture or country isn't as technologically advanced that doesn't make them inferior.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Wing
Posted 2003-02-04 09:47:59 and read 10525 times.

Quantas 747,Lufthansa Cargo,All the western jets are flying over India for spying is alittle bit paranoid type of thinking in my oppinion.Although I have never flown over India but as far as I can understand they hava good radar coverage to intercept so that can be used before the aircraft deviates from supposed flight path.Ofcourse no country would permit foreigners overfly their national security zones.But before shooting them they have to take necessary cautions to prevent them going through it.Which airline pilot says no to a vector around the no fly zone.Pilots and navigation systems may deviatedue to errors shooting them is not the solution correcting their path before they enter the restricted zone is what it has to be done.Newly developed cameras which fitted over Recce airplanes doesn't neccesarily needs to fly over the area they can take pictures from way distance if spying is the main concern.

And one thing I'd like to say to the guys who makes "eastern-western" fights be aware that you are looking stupid.Every civilization has something to learn from each other also from the past.Please be polite to each other.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Manni
Posted 2003-02-04 11:18:14 and read 10485 times.

'With your head so far up your ass how do you manage to read what other people post?'

His Indian house keeper is reading it for him.  Nuts

'That makes you no better than the Russians shooting down a Korean Airliner, does it?'

Or the US navy shooting down an Iranian A300, does it?  Big grin

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Tca256
Posted 2003-02-04 12:28:17 and read 10445 times.

"Yeah....that "Indian" girl got into space on Western, not Indian, technology."

So smart from you...an other post like this and I'll start to think there are more dumbs than I thought in your nice "western" and "civilized" country!

"If they're so intelligent, why can't they solve India's poverty?"

Clean first the poverty of your own narrowed mind...

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Tom775257
Posted 2003-02-04 13:19:46 and read 10395 times.

Wow…such xenophobia!
Anyhoo, re: poverty in India, as far as I know India has not as much debt per person as the U.S.A – which is currently in around 14 trillion U.S.D. debt to countries and banks around the world. Since 1960 taxpayers in the U.S.A. have paid around 15 trillion dollars in interest (including federal and state debt). This works out about $50,000 debt per American. Oh yes, and I am an American (living abroad..).


[Edited 2003-02-04 13:24:15]

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Voodoo
Posted 2003-02-04 13:35:35 and read 10381 times.

Hasn't been mentioned yet,
but Indian ATC is not very good.
Aircraft may be straying into `wrong' airspace thru no fault of their own.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: N79969
Posted 2003-02-04 15:00:57 and read 10282 times.

It sounds like the Indian military acted prudently in forcing this aircraft to land. That is the bottom line. It departed an openly-hostile country and was off-course. That is suspicious.

Suggestions that off-course aircraft should be shot down automatically are ridiculuous. This happens quite a bit around here...pilots overfly restricted areas and have action taken against them.

I am curious to know what those guys were doing flying with weapons.

Suggestion: Leave Dr. Chawla out of your discussion. She is a hero and her memory should be left out of idiotic remarks.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2003-02-04 16:24:36 and read 10193 times.

The weapons? This is a corporate aircraft...try bodyguards and/or the CEO's went hunting. You wouldnt believe how many rifles I see going through our FBO into exec aircraft.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-02-04 16:46:27 and read 10145 times.

...Yeah....that "Indian" girl got into space on Western, not Indian, technology."
...

Uh, Yyz. Its called AMERICAN technology. Certainly NOT Canadian (or Finnish, or Greek, or Spanish, or Swiss). So much for the "West." When Belgium or Canada or the Czech Republic decide to launch a new space vehicle, then lets engage in a cultural embrace of all of western civilization. Until then its just the Stars and the Stripes, and those of us who contribute to its primacy. OK?

And judging by your ignorant unsubstantiated racist prattle and offensive comments about anything you deem "non-western" its clear that merely having one's butt in a Western country doesn't make one the natural intellectual beneficiary of Aristotle, Homer, Michelangelo or Einstein. As a matter of fact, the sheer achievement of rational Western thought is that you can be anywhere on the planet to understand Western scientific rationalism, not merely in some Canadian town with one's mind as tightly shut as the arse of a constipated cow. Its quite apparent that those tens of thousands of Indian students who are wooed by top-notch American universities every year (Ooops, there's something that India has that the "West" wants) are far more the intellectual beneficiaries of the Western canon than those who wrap themselves in the glories of western civilization by mere geographical default.

For anyone who has spent any time doing any scientific research its quite apparent that there is a huge body of scientific and technical research coming out of countries like India, Israel, and China but I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge that even if a stack of scientific publications penned by a cadre of Indian nerds hit you on the head.

And getting back to the topic at hand, any country on God's green earth would apprehend an aircraft straying into its airspace, especially one that departed from a country with which it is at war. A stupid wasteful war, but a war no less. As far as Qantas 744s go, someone needs to reprogram those BARC Reactors as follows: Qantas = f(John Travolta's 707, Koalas, shrimp on the barbie) = safe = NOT Pakistani. Should be easy enough for all those Indian computer programmers to do.

Amen.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Clickhappy
Posted 2003-02-04 16:58:20 and read 10105 times.

is Canada a state yet?

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Aloges
Posted 2003-02-04 17:29:41 and read 10062 times.

Seriously, I don't get how a threat about a reasonable military action could evolve into bashing... Why do you people bother that much about where someone is from?? There are genius people in every country, as well as there are morons all over "God's green earth". And what does all that have to do with N610G intruding Indian airspace? The crew of that aircraft was acting suspiciously, and the Indians forced it to land - end of the story! No blood shed, no missile fired, nobody in danger. It's just a perfectly normal thing to do!

Geeee.... before telling someone else to solve his country's poverty, take a look at your own driveway. It's not a matter of peoples being too dumb to solve problems, it's a matter of having the means and the resources.

aloges

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: GDB
Posted 2003-02-04 17:47:28 and read 10042 times.

So the KAL 747 was on a US spy mission was it? Get real.
The USAF had plenty of RC-135's buzzing USSR airspace then, the aged, paranoid Kremlin leadership killed those on the KAL 747.
As for British Intelligence helping Indian separatist groups, get over yourself, a divided India of warring factions is the last thing any Western nation wants.
Really, the paranoia and polemic on here is laughable, what is it all about, somekind of wannabe superpower penis envy towards the US?

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: S.p.a.s.
Posted 2003-02-04 18:31:58 and read 9971 times.

Don??t know this intrusion of airspace was on purpose, it might have been just a navigation error.. BUT...some points deserve to be addressed:

1)Spy satellites: Those are well known to the intelligence agencies worldwide and so their orbits can be easily traced, with "overflights" predictable..so no one would expose some sensitive black project knowing that a satellite is above. This is the main advantage of planes, they can be scrambled at any time and have a great "surprise element"..

2)Maybe this 757 wasnt on a spy mission but on a defense test one, forcing the IAF to scramble and intercept them, just to see how ready they are. Or maybe the planes that intercepted the jet were from special interest. I would love to make some air-to-air photos of IAF Su-30MKIs  Smile

Brgds,

Renato

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: United777
Posted 2003-02-04 21:34:36 and read 9795 times.

You have to see where India is coming from with all this. This is the second time in as many days an aircraft has entered it's airspace without permission or even communicating to the India's air traffic controllers.

Also this 752 departed from Pakistan and everybody knows how India feels towards PAK. It is just like an Iraqi or North Korean jet entering US or England airspace.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Wingman
Posted 2003-02-04 23:29:33 and read 9701 times.

I've never rated a thread in my life, but this one just got a full five star rating from me, classic stupidity and a stern lesson that we should be careful who we speak with in cyberspace, even morons know how to log onto the internet.

Nuke the Indians, and just in case we aren't sure which ones, nuke 'em all (including the ones from Cleveland).

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2003-02-04 23:40:33 and read 9677 times.

Hey now.... I am all for forcing down aircraft straying into the wrong airspace. It's standard, smart, and in the best interests of the host country of the restricted airspace. I fly internationally several times a year, and comply with all the necessary regulations, which i understand and respect. No need to single me out there, buddy. I'm on your side.

My comment on the weapons is just making a point that private aircraft with rich passengers tend to have firearms on board.

Shooting them down like smarty Indianguy was talking about is just rediculous and stupid.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Aloges
Posted 2003-02-05 00:23:09 and read 9621 times.

@ Wingman:

LOL... Where'd Donald??!?! He godda get dem Noogs on dem balmbrrs!!!

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2003-02-05 02:15:49 and read 9527 times.

Really, the paranoia and polemic on here is laughable, what is it all about, somekind of wannabe superpower penis envy towards the US?


Exactly GDB. "Maybe if we force down a Western airliner, the West will notice and respect us". Dream on India.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Tkmce
Posted 2003-02-05 05:24:21 and read 9444 times.

Roy
*****
Havent the lessons from KAL007 been learnt yet? Korean airliners have been used by the US intelligence agencies in the past to snoop on Soviet defenses and atleast 2 such jets have been shot down causing civilian casualties. How fair is that?
*****

Unfortunately that was the TABLOID version of the accident cause.

The real cause of the accident was a major navigation error!
Yeah facts are facts ! (By the way I have read the conspiratory theory book also!)
Cheers

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-02-05 12:46:09 and read 9319 times.

@Alpha1 and the others:
Imagine a fully loaded BA/UA jet is hijacked immediately after takeoff from Washington and the hijackers lead it towards the White House. How do you suppose the USAF should react? ( I intentionally didn’t say Air Timbuctou, because I know what your answer to that would be! LOL!)

Now imagine this, a PIA jet headed towards ORD, takes a detour of, umm lets say, around 60 miles during descent, to overfly a ultra-sensitive military location. It could be carrying recce equipment, You never know! What do you think the USAF should do in this case?


But Roy just made it a blanket statement: shoot them down. Under his blanket statement, it wouldn't matter if they were over the furthest tip of India, or over a nuclear reactor, his response would be the same, and I think that goes a bit too far.

@Alpha1: Why don’t you READ the posts properly before you venture to
comment? Do you have to be an absolute moron everyday of the year?

When, oh when did I say that? I specifically talked of “No Tolerance ZONES”. ZONES! ZONES! Get it? If you get your big head out of your rear, you will probably able to read the posts better!

There are areas in every country that need to be secured, which need to be put off limits for ALL aircraft. I have also sat in the cockpit of an aircraft for flying lessons and I understand the possibility of Nav Errors happening. I understand that fighters scrambled should be made to first warn the intruder using internationally understood signals or a warning burst from their cannons if it comes to that! Shooting it down is ONE of the things that should be considered. The last, but definitely an option. Is that SOOO difficult for you to understand?

And the frequency with which these “nav-errors” have been occuring give you reason to doubt. Just yesterday, even as one US owned 757 aircraft was on the ground in BOM, there were reports on Indian News Channels, that an American military aircraft (a C5?) was circling 180 miles off Chennai, FAR FAR off from where it should have been. Makes you wonder as to what is going on! A bad trainee like me can make nav-errors, but MILITARY PILOTS? If TRAINED military pilots are 180 miles off course, flying over the Indian space launch facility at SHAR instead of manouvering for finals into MAA, because of a “mistake”, then it makes you wonder at how these morons would perform when they have to perform against the Arabs in the Gulf War-2!

Gr8 points there S.p.a.s! Any country with a decently well developed Remote Sensing Capability knows how to evade Spy Satellites. India, with 16 IRS series satellites up there is not ignorant of them either. We managed to hide the nuclear tests from the Western satellites quite well, since the scientists knew exactly what can be seen and what cannot and how to hide what can be seen. It is here that the civilian airliners come into their own. They can be used for that “surprise element”.

Also, No country can directly shoot down an airliner even if it knows that it is carrying recce equipment of some kind. Which is why I feel that there should be international laws outlawing this sort of activity.

@TKMCE:
And how do you conclude which was the TABLOID version and which was the REAL cause? You choose to believe one version which need not be true.

BTW, according to news just coming in, the aircraft has been allowed to depart. The pilots explaination that he was deliberately misguided by the Pakistani ATC has apparently been accepted by the Aviation Minister. No mention is being made of the arms and ammo, as well as the equipment found onboard yesterday by the commandos.

Seems like the Indian and American authorities have decided to play the “Lets Blame the Pakis” game now!

-Roy

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: David L
Posted 2003-02-05 14:12:58 and read 9285 times.

Jaysit, while I agree on the whole with the rest of your post, I have to disagree that space technology is all American. It's American refinement of German and Russian technology - remember Werner von Braun and Tsiolkovsky (I hope I've got the right guy)? Other nations continue to launch vehicles into space, it's just that we can't afford to launch manned spacecraft. If you specifically mean the Shuttle then I'll concede you have a point.

As for the main topic, I'd rather distance myself from some of these outrageous, uneducated, narrow-minded remarks. Some people will start a fight if you say "hello" to them.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-02-05 15:47:08 and read 9243 times.

...Exactly GDB. "Maybe if we force down a Western airliner, the West will notice and respect us". Dream on India...

What a ludicrous, ignorant statement. The Indian government never professed such an attitude. The last time I checked hundreds of "Western" airliners crisscross, land, and take off from India every day. This aircraft strayed into Indian airspace from a hostile territory, and was not a known civilian airliner nor a known US military craft. I guess the Canadian government would have sent out the mounties on horses to apprehend an aircraft in such a situation.

David L: I fully concede your point. I was referring to the shuttle program in order to give a kick in the pants to some who wrap themselves in the achievements of others while displaying a level of ignorance and xenophobia that is extreme for anyone anywhere in the world, let alone the "enlightened" West.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: TKMCE
Posted 2003-02-05 18:36:52 and read 9171 times.

Roy
*****
@TKMCE:
And how do you conclude which was the TABLOID version and which was the REAL cause? You choose to believe one version which need not be true.
*****

Simply because there isa profession called "accident investigation" and international rules and framework for the same.

I assume from your earlier statement that such acronyms like ICAO,NTSB and AAIB are all greek and latin to you!

Cheers

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: David L
Posted 2003-02-05 18:43:09 and read 9159 times.

Jaysit: Fair enough, the USA is due a lot of credit for it's current space programme.

I also agree with you, GDB and others that there was scope here for a perfectly interesting, if slightly heated, discussion and it deteriorated into completely irrelevant, racist jingoism. I certainly can't claim never to have had any racist thoughts but some of this stuff is unbelievable.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: 747-451
Posted 2003-02-05 22:23:43 and read 9059 times.

"Another point is that US Intelligence agencies seem to have reverted to using Civilian airlines for collection of intelligence"

Soooooooo that's what those pointy things are ont the trailing edge of a Convair 990???


Such paranoia....

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: LOT767-300ER
Posted 2003-02-05 23:48:02 and read 9000 times.

"Now imagine this, a PIA jet headed towards ORD, takes a detour of, umm lets say, around 60 miles during descent, to overfly a ultra-sensitive military location. It could be carrying recce equipment, You never know! What do you think the USAF should do in this case?"

Such as? The only military point that has any significance is Scott AFB by St. Louis in SoIllinois.  Smile Just for the sake of the argument. When you give an example give a realistic one  Big grin

" FAR FAR off from where it should have been. Makes you wonder as to what is going on! A bad trainee like me can make nav-errors, but MILITARY PILOTS? If TRAINED military pilots are 180 miles off course, flying over the Indian space launch facility at SHAR instead of manouvering for finals into MAA, because of a “mistake”, then it makes you wonder at how these morons would perform when they have to perform against the Arabs in the Gulf War-2!"

Say that to the face of the pilots in that C-5...please that was pure stupidity.

This whole post is a load of BS in itself..

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Tca256
Posted 2003-02-06 00:11:33 and read 8988 times.

"Why is half the nation in thr UK and the others in Canada"

That's simple, just to make you open your dirty mouth... Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin Big grin

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Cloudy
Posted 2003-02-06 00:21:20 and read 8979 times.

Relax, people.

The Chenai incident was with a military aircraft anyway. There is allot of US military traffic related to the Afghan war. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of it went off course.

There is no evidence I have seen for US government involvement in the 757 incident. If was a Pakestani wanting to support the Indian rebels, chartering or renting a US 757 would be a great way to make the mission safer. And the aviation market is so depressed nowdays that it may even be possible to do so without having to many questions asked. It is easy enough to create a shell corperation in the country you want to register in and register anywhere you want anyway. Any group with sufficient resources to buy a plane could do this. The US has no interest in the conflict anyway other than having it solved as soon as possible. If anything, I would think the US would prefer an Indian victory in the Kashmir dispute - because India is a far more stable and Democratic country than Pakistan is. The only thing I can think we may have done wrong is look the other way while Pakistan acquired access to this plane - perhaps because we needed their cooperation in Afghanistan.

This is all rank speculation anyway. Getting rilled up over it is a waste of time.

Forcing civilian, foreign military, and even domestic aircraft down when they make suspicious maneuvers, etc. is very common and I am surprised in many ways that this would even make the news. The US did it all the time even before 9/11 - especially when interdicting drug traffic. India's action was appropriate and reasonable. Its more like being pulled over by the cops than being shot at or even arrested. To be pulled over, all you need to do is create a reasonable suspicion. What this 757 did would create reasonable suspicion. If I got lost in another city and drove arround the same place several times - I would not be surprised to get pulled over if there was a robbery in the place soon after. It is the cop's job to look out for behavior like that - even if most of the time it turns out to be innocent. If everyone stays nice and polite it need not be a big deal. If you have in fact been commiting criminal acts, get forced down and held accountable - that is your fault, not the fault of either government. That is the way international law tends to view things also. That is, unless there is specific and strong evidence that a government is not acting in good faith.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Alpha 1
Posted 2003-02-06 05:17:10 and read 8892 times.

Alpha1: Why don’t you READ the posts properly before you venture to
comment? Do you have to be an absolute moron everyday of the year?


Roy, can you like like a decent human being once in a while, pal? I brought up what I saw was a legitimate point, and you respond like this. Grow up.

I still think what you propose is going overboard, Roy. I really do. You need a bit more information before shooting down a 744 full of tourists or something like that, zones, or no zones.

Next time, I'd appreciate a litte courtesy on your part, thank you.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2003-02-06 07:07:27 and read 8842 times.

This thread has caused me to lose respect for several people I had respect for previously.

On one hand, there's rational adults speaking.

On the other, there's absolute petty childishness.

N

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Twaneedsnohelp
Posted 2003-02-06 07:25:48 and read 8826 times.

like the CIA would use a slow moving highly visible 757 with weapons on board to spy on india. whatever.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2003-02-06 12:59:34 and read 8774 times.

Warning... what I am writing below could be irrelevant...

I work in remote sensing and are exposed to certain means of intelligence gathering methods "quietly"... for those of you who do not thing agencies such as the CIA use a slow moving highly visible 757 for intelligence gathering, think again. I am not saying this incident involves the CIA or intelligence agencies, but the reason for countries to intercept such flights and bring them in for inspection is to deter intelligence flights in civil guises...

What I am about to say will stretch my non disclosure agreements to the limits... so don't kill me for it...

A. If it was an intelligence gathering flight...
1. Why not use satellites ?

Limitations of satellite technology is well known to those in the remote sensing community, that is why airborne platforms are still required.

First, their orbits are predictable. You can change the orbit trajectory, but that uses up fuel and after numerous orbit changes, your little keyhole bird will run out and become useless. Knowing the price of these equipment, you would not want to change orbits too often. So your targets can evade satellite detection by just knowing the "timetable" for their orbit exposure window.

Secondly, satellite imagery suffer from atmospheric interference. Kilometers of air with various densities, humidity and temperatures distort images. Those familiar with sonars know what thermal inversions in the water do to submarine sonar sensors... Well, satellites suffer from such limitations. Forensic remote sensing technology (such as spectral/infrared/radar) has gone a long way, but atmospheric interference prevents it from being used effectively on orbital vehicles.

Thirdly, the accuracy satellite imagery is a trade off between capability and budgetary limitations. This results in satellites producing mind boggling relative accuracy within the pictures, but dismal absolute accuracy. Relative accuracy is the position of one object within the picture frame to another... Atmospheric interference does limit it, and yes, reading license plates from space is possible, but only under perfect atmospheric conditions (eg. conditions at numerous altitudes known in terms of density, moisture and temperature)... Absolute accuracy is where the position of an object is in relation to the earth's surface... This renders the image for locational purposes to be useless.

For example, IKONOS (Space Imaging Inc) can produce absolutely sharp images (where a pixel can have a relative accuracy to another object of 60cm - 2m)... you can see people walking on the streets... images are around 1:5000 - 1:10,000 scale... But, if you want to know the absolute position of the picture, it's only accurate to 1:100,000... so, unless you have a reference location within the picture, the pixel location accuracy is only 10m at best, to 200 and can even be 2000m...

Satellite technology is useful for when you know where something is and you want to observe it over a period at regular time intervals... Just see Colin Powell's presentation to the UN security council recently, and you'll see the limitations of satellites. Furthermore, the more oblique the photo, the less accurate in becomes. Image enhancing techniques can only go to a certain level. If the technology can read the license plates with reasonable statistical accuracy, UNMOVIC and IAEA would have been able to find the "missing mobile WMD production trucks"...

So, if you need more reliable data than satellites, you'll need to go to the next level down... Airborne platforms... (that's why Iraq doesn't allow U2 flights over it's territory) from UAVs, to Cessnas and why not all the way to airlines' 747s if you can get away with it?

2. Why use civilian planes ?

Civilian planes are ideal because they do not raise attention of the target. Regular scheduled flights are even more ideal because they are "regular flyers" to the area. Besides, shooting down a civilian plane would raise a LOT of attention and criticism... so it's a "you shouldn't shoot civilians" blackmail.

I have been "approached" by some "agency" into doing forensic survey flights over suspected terrorist sites using local civilian planes... I questioned their motives and they wanted to use us because we're local, hence no suspicions would arise. If they use a foreign registered civilian aircraft, they wouldn't be able to enter our airspace or they'd be turned back after customs inspection upon landing when they see the equipment and if it was a military aircraft, someone would raise attention to such activities that could result in "undesirable political outcomes". I told them I won't do it unless they can find someone who can officially insure us... 12 months later, they still haven't managed to.... I wonder why  Big grin

Of course, the most ideal method of getting intelligence date from airborne platforms will be a fully loaded 747 on a "minor diversion due to navigation error" flying over/near the targets... because it would not raise a lot of attention and who'd shoot down a 747 full of innocent lives ? I call it hijacking innocence... It sounds grotesque, but that's the game of intelligence. It has been done before...

3. What kind of intelligence ?

Comms/Signals intelligence, commercial intelligence, military readiness intelligence, countersurveillance.

Here's an example of an official "military readyness test", the US Navy loves to fly into our airspace over the Exclusive Economic Zone to see how fast we can dispatch our fighters. Our radars can't tell if the violator is a Cessna or an F14 Tomcat. Our fighters intercepted the US Navy F/A 18 and we proceeded to our normal interception procedures. Radio contact was established, and the US pilot waved his wings to show his armaments... his full Air to Air load of Sidewinders and AMRAAMs... while our F16s have only sidewinders... Of course our pilots chickened out and request return to base with "friendly military aircraft" as the reason. A few days later, a report was despatched to our military HQ by the US assessing our readiness.

Some other "examples"/scenarios...
A European airliner pilot flew to Buenos Aires during the Falklands and noted down any unusual military activity at the Buenos Aires area using a modified receiver, and took photos from his flightdeck. Argentinian pilots or "spies for Argentina" flew to Chile to have a look at the British deployment there of SAS troops and the helicopteres used... Again, these are unsophisticated intelligence... but it happens !

Now, if that was say a Cessna 402 rigged with Signals Intelligence equipment and has a civilian registration, and he does not comply with our interception procedures, what are we to do ? Shoot it down ? Even if we say it's a spyplane, the violator can still win the moral ground by sticking to the "it's a civilian plane" argument.

Let's scale it up further, it's a Lufthansa 747-400 who diverted from course by about 100NM and approaching a restricted airspace... what would you do ?

B. If it wasn't an intelligence gathering flight, what was it ? Gun running/Smuggling?

This is the most frequent illegal activity around the world. The aircraft used ranges from DC3s to Cessna 150s to yes... 747s !

C. If innocent flights were shot down OVER RESTRICTED AREAS... who's responsible ?
I will use KAL007 as a case study...

1. Pilot/Navigation error?

A track error by a few miles is acceptable, but one must use their judgement on the limits of acceptability. We all know planes now have excellent accuracy for their navigation equipment, Multiple GPS is accurate to at least 30m at high speeds, INS have similar accuracies when started up properly...

Any gross error to the flight track is the responsibility of the pilot or a navigational equipment failure. If an aircraft strays into a restricted airspace, it can theoretically be shot down... but countries aren't that cruel...

In the case of KAL007, there is a possibility of a pilot error by either putting wrong coordinates, or he didn't startup the INS properly. Initial track error out of Anchorage is an indicator... Maybe, if KAL007 was not a spying flight then the USSR should not have shot it down ? Well look below...

2. Navigation equipment error?

The pilot is trained on his navigation equipment and it's procedures to ensure accurate navigation. The engineers maintain it. So, what happened in KAL007 ? Equipment ? Pilot error or Navigation equipment failure. If there was a navigation equipment error, pilots are issued with "acceptable discrepancy between systems" list. He should have noticed this and raised attention of it to the ATC. If in KAL007, no such thing happened, when we must ask the question why... either the pilot was careless (knowing he would be near USSR airspace, that is NOT an excuse) or he was intending to make the error... If he was careless, maybe we shouldn't have shot him down... but... maybe not... how do we know ?

3. Communications failure.

In the US, upon communications failure, set your transponder to the frequency that tells ATC that your coms have failed. If your incoming coms also fails, there are procedures within the EnRoute supplement that you must follow. Most countries have these rules and procedures published.

So, why did the pilot not make himself known that he was having a coms failure ?

4. Interception procedures.

No country would shoot down a plane if it can intercept the plane first. Each country publishes the interception procedures to those overflying its territory (the responsibility lies on the Pilot to ensure he is aware of the interception procedures). From what I know, most countries would warn planes by flying alongside and establishing radio contact, or shooting its cannons in front of the path of the aircraft with tracers to raise it's attention, or fly in front of the aircraft to raise attention. (as far as I know it is only Israel that would shoot planes down if the violator strays into restricted areas... even the USSR has lengthier procedures until they reach the shoot down stage).

Did the KAL007 pilot comply with the interception procedures ? The military pilots have been known to mistakenly identify 747s with 707s at night from behind. With no logo lights, it's bloody hard. IF KAL007 was indeed straying off course on purpose, why ?

I am not saying that it was... I just want to raise some useless points here.

Now, before you shoot down any planes, have you...
1. established radio communications with the intruder ?
2. Failing 1, have you intercepted the aircraft according to your published interception procedures and acknowledged interception ?
3. If you've followed #2 and the intruding plane has not acknowledged, you have the legal right to shoot him down. Civil, military, even a red cross flight !

It is the plane's responsibility not to stray into restricted airspace. The 744 that flew over the Nuclear facility could have been shot down... however, interception and forced landing prior to the aircraft leaving Indian airspace would have been a better thing to do.

This 757 was mislead by Pakistan upon leaving its airspace ? The pilots should have noticed it... If not then why ? It may not be the pilots fault in failing to notice, and maybe he explained it well after landing and was deemed innocent due to it.

Just because it was a US registered plane, hell, it could been hired by a Japanese registered front company for the North Korean Intelligence wanting to gather signals intelligence from some military facility in India! It could even be hired by some Pakistani to annoy India... the possibilities are endless...

On No-Tolerance Zones... if the pilots know it's there, then it's NO TOLERANCE... if the pilot doesn't know it's a no tolerance zone, then blame the airline for not raising the point up with the pilot! Simple  Smile

Sorry to have bored all of you (I am sure at least most of you are)... but some of the comments I read above compelled me to write this...

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: XFSUgimpLB41X
Posted 2003-02-06 16:25:44 and read 8709 times.

Indianguy wrote:

Imagine a fully loaded BA/UA jet is hijacked immediately after takeoff from Washington and the hijackers lead it towards the White House. How do you suppose the USAF should react? ( I intentionally didn’t say Air Timbuctou, because I know what your answer to that would be! LOL!)

Now imagine this, a PIA jet headed towards ORD, takes a detour of, umm lets say, around 60 miles during descent, to overfly a ultra-sensitive military location. It could be carrying recce equipment, You never know! What do you think the USAF should do in this case?




Yeah.... and on all the way to that secure government location they spray chemtrail's all over the sky with the deployment devices that were secretly attatched to the airplane.... haha!

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Cloudy
Posted 2003-02-07 03:49:12 and read 8606 times.

Mandala499,

great post! Very informative and it gells with what I think I know  Smile ....

Yet I wouldn't be surprised if the Indian government/ high command are involved in the games between the US navy and the Indian airforce. They might actually be using an ally or friend in order to test readiness.

The US does this. Planes from nominally friendly nations make approaches to our carriers all the time and are intercepted. Sometimes its a planned exercise and sometimes it is not. The goal is to avoid getting caught for as long as possible - without getting close enough to be a real danger. The closer you get - the better whoever directed the action looked and the worse the carrier group commander looks. It is a friendly game. Even during friendly games, some people act like Deon Sanders used to and brag a bit - like showing the weapons under the wing, etc. . Its no big deal, though it is obnoxious. These games give people an excuse to get flying hours and they give allot of valuable practice. You can't always plan on a war to be scheduled like an exercise is. For this reason, some people even like to have things like this in order to keep them on their toes.

Its almost like computer hacking. Some people ("hackers") try to get into computers just for the thrill. They never try to do any damage - sometimes they can even increase security by showing vulnerabilities to system administrators. Others (crackers) get in to cause damage and steal things. It is important to recognize the distinction. With more friendly nations, militaries and intelligence agencies often act as "hackers". With hostile ones, they act as "crackers". This is an imperfect analogy but it may be helpful.

Between hostile nations, these games can get nasty or even downright dangerous - as one Navy P3 crew certainly found out when flying near China on a planned and admitted reconnaissance run in international waters. I wouldn't think India and the US are hostile towards each other - the main tension between them is India's nuclear program. But I know little about this. Has the US lifted the sanctions imposed on India after its first nuclear test? The sanctions on Pakistan were lifted, I believe, to help get them cooperate in Afghanistan.

BTW, I would be surprised if the existence of Pakistani nuclear arsenal is not seen as a grave danger by the US. India, the US, China, Israel, Britain, France and even Russia are pretty stable and have good controls on there weapons. Pakistan is a much larger risk. The country's political system is authoritarian and unstable. The same sort of radical forces that created the Taliban and Al Quida are very strong in Pakistan. I would not be surprised to see the US and India sharing interlligence regarding this threat - and perhaps even making contingency plans for a strike to remove Pakistan's nuclear capability in the event of a coup or major internal unrest.


Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2003-02-07 06:55:38 and read 8562 times.

India, the US, China, Israel, Britain, France and even Russia are pretty stable and have good controls on there weapons. Pakistan is a much larger risk.

You're grouping India with the US, Israel, UK and France as being stable???? Incredible! The latter 4 are democratic Western nations. India is a third world semi-democratic nation much more like Pakistan.

In the West, it is recognized that the Indian-Pakistani conflict is among the most volatile nuclear-armed flashpoint in the world, with India seen as being as unstable & unpredictable as Pakistan. Pakistan has also been a far more reliable Western ally than India since WW2, although India is nominally democratic.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: QANTASforever
Posted 2003-02-07 07:23:25 and read 8543 times.

If the Indian Government had shot down a Qantas 747-400, then the Australian Government would have enacted and implemented new policy to ensure that such a threat was neutralised. There is no way India could have afforded to shoot down an Australian aircraft. It would have been the end of their economy and tourism industry.


QANTASforever

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2003-02-07 07:27:28 and read 8540 times.

You're grouping India with the US, Israel, UK and France as being stable???? Incredible! The latter 4 are democratic Western nations. India is a third world semi-democratic nation much more like Pakistan.

India has been as politically stable as the US or UK, in terms of number of elected governments since the 1940s (roughly 13), and most likely far politically stable than Israel, where Likud and Labor frequently traded places at the helm, over such ridiculous things as the first batch of F-15s arriving in Israel on Sabbath, during the 1970s. Pakistan, a country that has been a military dictatorship for 2/3rds of its existences, bears no comparision. There is no way an Indian leader can mount a nuclear attack because of a fit of insanity.

Socio-economic comparisions ("Western" vs "third world") are irrelevant when comparing political stability, nor should the lack of economic means be mistaken for a lack of democratic norms. That democratically elected Indian governments managed to do jack shit in 40 years because they clung onto a worthless economic paradigm (socialism) is another matter. France went on the same path, albeit to nowhere near such a crippling extent.

India may have been mis-administered for most of its existence, but its people always had the ability to boot out the nitwits in power through democratic means, come general election time. Thankfully, recent governments have realized they can't get away with being worthless pieces of sh*t when it comes to administration, and economic progress is being made in earnest - to the extent that we are in a position to do things like asking the development aid disbursement agency US-Aid to shut shop in India, or pay back a $3 billion World Bank loan in advance because they government is sitting on a rapidly growing pile of dollar reserves that now stand at about $80 billion. It'll take a while, however, to undo 40 years of disastrous economic policies.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: BarfBag
Posted 2003-02-07 08:10:22 and read 8529 times.

If the Indian Government had shot down a Qantas 747-400, then the Australian Government would have enacted and implemented new policy to ensure that such a threat was neutralised. There is no way India could have afforded to shoot down an Australian aircraft. It would have been the end of their economy and tourism industry.

Notwithstanding Indianguy's chest-thumping, *if* an Qantas 744 were go to such an extent - not responding to ATC communication, completely disregarding restricted airspace zones in India with impunity *and* resisting efforts by defence aircraft to guide it to the nearest sterile airport for immediate cross-examination of the flight crew (which would in any case they would not do if it were a "navigation/communication error") - that the Indian Government was compelled to authorize the IAF to force it down because of the danger to commercial or defence areas on the ground, then the crew (if the get out of it alive), Qantas AND the Australian government would have a lot of questions to answer to the Indian government about reckless endangerment and gross disregard of planned flight path and warnings before they can even consider "implementing policies to neutralize such threats". Quite frankly, such a scenario is bizarre to the extreme, unless you consider something like Islamic terrorists hijacking the aircraft to crash it into something a la 9/11/2001.

The "how dare that immature li'l whippersnapper do that to US!" fingerwagging posts apart, what the IAF did here was standard procedure. As B747-437B and others said, it had nothing to do with bravado. The skies around BARC in Trombay and the Bombay High offshore oil fields are restricted airspace, and they enforce the very seriously. *Any* aircraft, much less one originating from Pakistan, loitering around there isn't going to be welcome with open arms. If you choose to attribute the IAFs actions on your own imagined motives, your argument merely backs up your assumption, not the actual act.

A plane was force-landed for having deviated into restricted airspace, its crew questioned as to their motives, and having provided a satisfactory explanation, allowed to continue. This is public record. If you choose to put your own spin on it, well... *shrug*

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Cloudy
Posted 2003-02-07 08:34:37 and read 8516 times.

Barf Bag,

Excellent post. I agree that those who think that democracy leads to capitalism, and vice versea are are being dangerously nieve. Many countries have had one without the other for long periods of time. IMHO you are right regarding socialism as well.

As for Israel's stability - Israel and India are both stable in the sense that the basic system is unlikely to be overturned through extra legal means. There is basic rule of law at the top. The number of government transitions, the number and ideological composition of the main interest groups, etc is irrelevant as long as each major political force respects the constitution and rule of law. This is true of India and Israel but not Pakistan.

Israel's political environment is unstable but it is a managed instability. The same is true of India. And of the US, for that matter.

Can't say the same for Pakistan. Pakistan's political process is unmanaged - there is no rule of law. The people who control things there now do so because they had the guns and their predecessors didn't. This is not to say Musharef is a bad person - he is not like Sadam Hussein or Hitler. However, in order to make any changes over there from the inside as Pakistani, you have to either use force or the credible threat of force. You have to either start a resistance movement or get some generals on your side. This means whole system could fall or change drastically at any moment - through a dictators whim, another military coup, or a civil war. If you think Israel's politics change fast, just wait till you go to some country like Pakistan, where there is no rule of law. When such countries are relatively stable over long periods of time(like castro's cuba) it is only through police-state policies. Even then, there is a lot of simmering tensions behind the scenes ready to explode. Hopefully, it won't explode in a nuclear blast.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-02-07 08:37:37 and read 8515 times.

@Mandala499: EXCELLENT Post there! One of the best I have seen here.

-Roy

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: N79969
Posted 2003-02-07 15:17:31 and read 8479 times.

Yyz717,

India is nowhere near as unstable as Pakistan. I agree with BarfBag. He provided a very good explanation. Also I think the relatively strong ties between Pakistan and the West are fast becoming Cold War relics. Pakistan is now struggling between modernity and a medieval version of Islam. Further, the democratic tradition has not taken root there as evidenced by the number of military dictatorships in their history.

Anyway, I don't see the problem with the Air Force action in this case. They diverted an off-course aircraft that departed from a hostile country. They did what was necessary.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2003-02-07 16:23:06 and read 8457 times.

Yes, I agree. Barfbag's response did highlight some differences betw India & Pakistan.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Delboy
Posted 2003-02-07 17:15:39 and read 8434 times.


Fantastic guys, starts out as one thread and develops into another.

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Donder10
Posted 2003-02-07 18:33:50 and read 8393 times.

Comparing India and Pakistan politically is like comparing umm cheese and chalk  Smile
Technically,isn't Pakistan now a democracy now?(the election was a sham,however)

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: ROSWELL41
Posted 2003-02-07 21:07:28 and read 8342 times.

To Jaysit:

Actually Dr. Goddard, an American, pioneered rocketry in the New Mexican desert prior to either the Germans or Russians. When Von Braun came to the USA, he told authorities that he had learned the theory behind his rocketry advances from Goddard. You've probably heard of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. Just a historical note.

-Mike

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Lazyb
Posted 2003-02-07 23:14:37 and read 8322 times.

Do any of you have computers? http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/explodes.gif

DOD contractor Raytheon Services (Comco Corp)- Not sure of the missions - flight test, product support, or ...

http://www.raytheon.com/products/
Advanced Cruise Missile (ACM)
Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM)
Advanced Surface Movement Radar (ASMR)
Air Defense FLIR/TV Sight System (FTS)
AN/FPS-120, AN/FPS-123 (V7), and AN/FPS-126, Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS) Radars
AN/TPN-31 Air Traffic Navigation, Integration, and Coordination System (ATNAVICS)


Could be "almost" anything - civilian ATC or military radar or weapons, etc






Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: FACT
Posted 2003-02-08 23:00:40 and read 8233 times.

Interesting that this aircraft is owned by defence contractor Raytheon:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Durbin



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Troy Prybyski/Cactus Wings



Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Mandala499
Posted 2003-02-08 23:10:13 and read 8219 times.

Wow !
Such planes deserve interception if straying too far off course near restricted zones ! Privately owned by a US Defence Contractor, they can put anything on that plane... especially those that can be used to "see"  Big grin

Interestingly, I was browsing some flight operations manual for planes flying for US Govt. agencies or companies with access to classified material. There's a section on emergencies over "undesirable" nations, and also some other interesting scenarios... The procedures to be followed diverge from standard civil only operations!

Mandala499

Topic: RE: Indian Air Force Forces Down Intruding 757
Username: Pat
Posted 2003-02-09 03:48:35 and read 8159 times.

Hi guys,

About the topic first :

It looks obvious that when overflying a non authorized area (on the top of it a it sensitive one) you can put yourself into troubles ... this is probably the case everywhere in the world. Some of you have have used the opposite example of an Idian jet overflying the States ... and it looks obvious to all of us that the US forces wouldn't laugh with that and would take no other actions than the one's taken by the Indian Air Force, may be even harder ones.

About the navigation system failure, I have some doubts that experienced pilots as those who are flying B747, ... don't see the problem quite quickly ...
More over, I suppose they are contacted by the local ATC when this happens.
About the Indian ATC quality ... even IF poor ... once more, experienced pilots know what to they can expect as guidelines given by ATC and in case they have a doubt they should - and I m sure they do ! - ask for a "say again".

About the deviations around this topic :

Very shortly, some comments are definitly going too far ... When I read the comments of YYZ717 among others, I stop wondering why some people from all over the planet have so much """hate""" towards the US politic ... ( YYZ 717 is from Canada I know but there are other people making very wise comments like his who are from the US ). Now I am bit amazed to see the reactions of some US citizens here ... I hope that they are not, on their side, amazed that people start hating not only US governement but also US citizens. Hoho guys, stop looking at Titanic, you are not Di Caprio and you are not the kings of the world ... People outside the US are also thinking, are also human being with skills and knowledge you know ... Please guys, let the people hate your governement's politic if they wish to do so, do not make them hate the good fellows, the ordinary citizens ... cause some crazy people could once again "break a cable" and give you some fastidious days if you see what I mean... This behaviour and some comments here would only encourage what your governement is fearing and provoking, at the same time... If some of you can understand my - peacefull - statement here then I will keep believing that we can live all together on this planet.


Cheers,



Pat


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