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Topic: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-01 15:33:16 and read 7033 times.

After the Carib jet scandal and the Pension Scam in Air India, there is another big scandal brewing in the National carrier Air-India seems that after the
huge CARIB-JET scandal the mandarins of AIR INDIA are at it again on a similar road, with almost the same set of indicted officials.

Hardly did the CBI filed indictments against the 13 serving official's of Air India in the Mega Million scam of CARIB JET, now the prime movers of the earlier
scandal are getting ready to start a "LOW COST AIRLINE" from Kerala.

It comes as no surprise to all and sundry that such a decision has been taken by the acting Managing director of Air-India, Mr.J.N.Gogoi who is on
extension beyond super annuation.The entire scheme has been hatched by Mr.A.Kaimal the Director-Human resource, of the Carib jet fame, and also on extension is rumored that the move to create the low cost subsidiary has been spear headed by none other than Mr.K.Roy Paul the 1967 Bihar cadre officer, who along with A.N.Kaimal hails from Kerala.

Incidentally , Kaimal is also on extension beyond super annuation, in contravention of the Government directive issued by Kamal Pande which
prohibits such extension unless approved by the Cabinet Committee.

The plan to apparently provide cheap cut throat flights from Kerala to the Gulf, is motivated by a deeper plan that has the blessings of the Congress
Government in Kerala.The idea behind the move is to provide the current Director-HRD to take over the subsidiary Airline of Air India charters Limited,
which will then be spun off into a separate company with the Kerala Government taking a stake.After his retirement in 11 months, Mr.K.Roy Paul will take over the reins of the new low cost Airline, Air India Charters Limited as its Chairman.

All this has been made possible by buying the silence of the powerful Unions of Air India, especially the Air India Employees Guild and its Malyalee General
Secretary Mr.V.A.George who has been given a free rein in the recruitment of all 1100 contract staff in Kerala for the Charter Airline through his own conduit
agency.

The long term objective of the plan is to create a situation where the existing Gulf routes of Air India are handed over to the low cost airline, thus lowering
yields on those sectors and causing Air Indias direct market share to fall.It is Public knowledge that almost 43% of Air-Indias revenue share is linked to the
cash cow Gulf routes it operates and any fall in the revenue yield projections will cripple the Airline turning it into a sick enterprise.

Air Indias fleet renewal plan has also been tailored to match this entire project and it has been suggested that it has a linkage to Jet Airways a private Indian
Airline run by Naresh Goyal, a known Congress party supporter.It so happens that the Air India Aircraft committee has shortlisted two Aircraft - get this :-
the 737-900 Series for its Gulf operations and the 767-600 ER series for medium range operations.

The complete supply of Training and Engineering and simulator/ spares for the 737 series of Aircraft will be provided to Air India Charter Limited and Air India by Jet airways, who will in turn get the right to operate International flights from Kerala.

On its part, the three loyal sons of Kerala are merely fulfilling the Congress Manifesto of creating an exclusive Airline for the Kerala migrants, with each
one reaping the rewards of being loyal to their State.

The plan has apparently got in principle approval from the new Civil Aviation Minister R.P.Rudy, however it is rumoured that he is now having second thoughts as apparently the Deputy Prime Minister does not like the idea.

In fact the rumoured replacement of K.Roy Paul by V.Duggal, and his move from the post of Aviation Secretary to Defence was thwarted by the powers that be, in order to ensure that this mischevious scheme goes through.

If this does go through,then by the end of this, the poor Maharaj will end up like a feeble beggar.  Big grin  Big grin certainly not a happy proposition.  Sad










Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-07-01 18:12:28 and read 6862 times.

Whats a 767-600 ER?

Doesnt it make sense to operate a low cost carrier on the India-Gulf labor routes? Gulf Air are spinning off their own low cost version to the subcontinent.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-07-01 18:26:20 and read 6841 times.

the Pension Scam in Air India

I'm actually surprised that the Pension Scam has gotten such little press coverage, especially since the legalities in that case will have far reaching implications now that the Supreme Court has agreed to hear it.

I've tried to keep away from posting about it here because (as you are probably well aware) my dad is very actively involved, but the mainstream media hasn't written much about it either (except the couple articles in BusinessWorld). I guess Air India scandals are old hat to them!  Smile

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-01 19:39:50 and read 6750 times.

Sean :- you are quite right, the Pension scam should have been deeply investigated, but there is still hope since the case comes before the Supreme court.

Jaysit - I dont know if a low cost carrier is the way to go on the India -Gulf labour route, especially since as far as I know AI was already operating a very Low cost carrier..hahha. Absolutely rock bottom as far as type of service and vintage of aircraft ; food etc go. The moot point here is "Can they possibly reduce the operating costs further ? " what will they then offer the passengers ? "A BYOB, + a bring your own Pillow+ food + entertainment carrier. ??"

Any further degradation of the service on this route would result in a further loss of market share to AI and lets not forget , a diversion of any of these routes from AI to the Low cost carrier will harm the Air India bottom line, thus pushing it once again to the brink of bankruptcy.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-07-01 20:02:30 and read 6727 times.

From what I understand, the Kerala originating passengers are screaming bloody murder at the relatively high ticket prices on flights to the Gulf, and their respective elected representatives are voicing these grievances in parliament.

Plus, on a 3 hour flight to Doha from Trivandrum, I see no reason why folks should be provided with a choice of 3 different south Indian choices. Give them some light refreshments, charge them Rs. 500 less and they'll come back in droves.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-07-02 04:25:14 and read 6633 times.

Just one quetion: If EK/Qatar and other ME carriers canmake money depsite providing good service, why does AI have to cut back?

EK/QR/GF all provide PTV's in economy, 31" pitch and decent food service. AI has no PTV's (Heck even the overhead cabin screens never work. A fellow techie friend who flew back last Wed SIN-MAA-BOM had an interesting anecdote on how the purser dealt with the uncooperative screen!).

Lets face it, the real problms are elsewhere.


Jet Airways a private Indian
Airline run by Naresh Goyal, a known Congress party supporter.

Naresh Goyal is known to be close to Mr.Pramod Mahajan and a couple of BJP ministers whose sons work as executive pilots for Jet. It is the Congress which wants him prosecuted for mafia links. If you want to post info, atleast ensure it is correct!

-Roy

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-02 06:35:55 and read 6591 times.

"Plus, on a 3 hour flight to Doha from Trivandrum, I see no reason why folks should be provided with a choice of 3 different south Indian choices. Give them some light refreshments, charge them Rs. 500 less and they'll come back in droves"

I guess you do have a point there Jaysit, but perhaps the issue is will it matter if its only Rs.500 less and no service at all ?? (coz that's what its going to be-No service at all) I wonder ? I think the Keralites love their food and liquor too much.Besides I think when the Parliament reconvenes you will find it will most likely be 3 Kerala M.Ps who will raise this issue in Parliament, about the Mandalisation of Air India and the discriminatory/Stepmotherly treatment of Keralites by Air-India in creating this Low cost carrier.

The fares were , as you correctly point out extremely high. But with the advent of QR/EK/GF , AI has had to cut down fares as well. However all these carriers have stuck to a level, which is IMHO still higher than the IATA mean rate for the distances traveled.

EK/QR/GF all provide PTV's in economy, 31" pitch and decent food service. AI has no PTV's (Heck even the overhead cabin screens never work. A fellow techie friend who flew back last Wed SIN-MAA-BOM had an interesting anecdote on how the purser dealt with the uncooperative screen!).

IndianGuy- My point exactly ! Air India is already Operating a Low Low cost carrier to the Gulf and South east Asia, without a first class (or what they call a First class), without any PTVs, Sky Phones,old battered Aircraft, and crap food for the GULF routes (which are carried from India- in dry ice all the way to the Gulf - for returning Indians.) so I guess they should be credited with having started the first Asian Low budget carrier without even having known it.

...And get this, the newly branded Low Budget carrier will have AIR INDIA's existing Staff, especially their Princely Pilots (amongst the Highest paid in the World) in order to achieve a low cost base, and cheap operational costs !!!??!! Why didn't they just go out and pick up pilots on contract at Industry accepted scales of pay?


"Naresh Goyal is known to be close to Mr.Pramod Mahajan and a couple of BJP ministers whose sons work as executive pilots for Jet. It is the Congress which wants him prosecuted for mafia links. If you want to post info, atleast ensure it is correct!

-Roy"
 Yeah sure

Roy , perhaps you are unaware that there has been a falling out of sorts over the past 4 months between the BJP honchos and Mr.Goel, over the twin issues of the Ground handling and Security Audit of Jet Airways instituted by the Home Ministry, (headed by the Dy.PM) and the second issue of the refusal (yet again) of permission to operate International flights to SAARC Nations.Admitedly, he still has links to Pramod Mahajan, from a friendship forged as a result of Mahajans daughter having served at jet as a One time Pilot.(no longer- now a TV producer).

In any case, Mahajan has burnt his boats on either side, trapped as he is between both - the Vajpayee and Advani camp's until he gains entry into one over the other, or stops being a fence sitter, proximity to Pramod Mahajan is more of a liablilty than an asset.

It is in fact acolytes of the Dy.P.M who have caused the investigation into Jet and its links. Perhaps you should also grab a peek at the recast "Jet Air Board"  Smokin cool and see exactly who's in and who's out. I am certain that you will find at least TWO new inductees, who bear more than a passing acquaintance with 10 Janpath.

The BJP flavor of the month is most certainly Sahara, and Mr.Subroto Roy and no longer Naresh Goyal.

However I am also keen to know the names of couple of BJP ministers whose sons work as executive pilots for Jet. ?

In the final analysis, the issue is over Air-India and the Anthony government using certain influences in the Public sector giant and the Babudom to get what they want. There is no gainsaying that the Kerala-Gulf market deserves a shake up and the passengers deserve more, but that should not be achieved at the cost of driving Air India into bankruptcy, from within.

Let healthy competition create the way for greater benefits to all passengers.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-07-02 11:47:47 and read 6529 times.

Maharaja: The airline industry being heavily govt controlled, requires all private players to do their own bit of "situation management" politically speaking. 9W, S2 and even the smaller players like Deccan and Archana are "guilty" of that!

My point is that you shouldnt unneccessarily bash the Congress here. Cheif Ministers of all states are going to lobby to ensure more connectivity for their respective states.

Seen Chandrababu Naidu's antics to get MAS into HYD? So on and so forth!

-Roy

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Aviasian
Posted 2003-07-02 12:28:17 and read 6491 times.

Just a minor correction of Jaysit's comments on Gulf Air's "low-cost" carrier to the Indian sub-continent.

Gulf Traveller is not branded a low-cost carrier. It is a full-service single class (read as all-economy class) carrier.

Sorry for the deviation from the original thread.

KC Sim
Bangkok

Topic: Scandal In AIR-INDIA ...again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-02 16:49:47 and read 6413 times.

The airline industry being heavily govt controlled, requires all private players to do their own bit of "situation management" politically speaking. 9W, S2 and even the smaller players like Deccan and Archana are "guilty" of that!

My point is that you shouldnt unneccessarily bash the Congress here. Cheif Ministers of all states are going to lobby to ensure more connectivity for their respective states.

Seen Chandrababu Naidu's antics to get MAS into HYD? So on and so forth!


You are absolutely correct Roy, on all three points, the situaion managment, the Chief Ministers and Chandrababu Naidu and MAS, but Its tragic the way they are screwing AI in all this.

Aviasian - thanks for that bit of Info, I had no idea. So actually AI will set up a Bus service to compete with an all-economy airline. what a laugh, those fools at Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan need their heads examined.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: TKMCE
Posted 2003-07-02 18:39:35 and read 6380 times.

Maharaja
You seem to have some gripe against Keralites! What is ur problem? That they are more educated than the average Indian???

I dont know much either about this scheme either, but as far as I can see it makes more sense than flying the Gauhati Bangkok route among others!

And give a break about this exploitation by Keralites! Ok Roy Paul is a Keralite, so what? So have been a quite a few other peopke from the state in senior postions in the Industry! And outside!Ever heard of Verghese Kurian and Anand, well he was a Keralite!Arent u ashamed at this point of time more than 50 years after Independence,still crying petty about regional lobbyism!

I dont know who you are, but I grew up watching the government and industry so blatantly ignoring one of their strongest markets in term of facilities and development.Memories still remain vivid of everyone from porters to the station managers at Air India misusing their powers when the poor average Keralite had to beg to get his seat cleared to save his job when there was zero competition and Air india restricted frequencies and fleeced those hoenst passenbgers (and do me a favor by sparing me the sob stories of the bilateral suff please!) Of the original 5 international airports, is it news to you that Trivandrum Airport alone has more international compared to domestic passengers (something like a 3 :1 ratio) And yet the facitliess as well as the route structure out of Trivandrum was a joke at one stage! And by the way if it is of any interest to you, the biggest benefit to the air traveller in Kerala was done by no congress government, but the communist government in kerala who persuaded the then VP singh governemt to finally declare Trivandrum as the fifth international airport in India, thereby throwing open the market to other foreign airlines and also thereby giving the traveller from Kerala a choice, one which they should have had years ago ! And now if they are going to get a a better deal in terms of lower fares who are you to crib about??

And before you continue with this stupid tirade , dont forget the fact that the only private airport in India got off the ground due to the efforts of a dedicated govenment (never mind congres or commuinist) , the only majior airport which has no major direct central government assistance . Yeah and the governemt which followed the then governmentt into power in Kerala, which was of the opposite colour didnt go into your line of narrow minded thinking and retained the guy who was in charge of the project till he saw it through (he was a bureaucrat and it was a sort of revolution then -a new governement seeing practcial sense instead of political expediency!). Give sonme credit where it is due to the state governemts as well my firend, whether you like it or not!

Scandal or not I dont care as long as the average Kerala traveller get some benefit. They deserve it ! After all these years! And if Air Iindia bleeds, well tough luck! If they couldnt make use of the protected times when theyt bled the average Kerala Traveller to death, then tough luck! I dont have any sympathies! Ho about doing some route rationalisation etween the internationa routes of Indian Airlines and Air India instead of crying about thingsa like these to sdavage Air India! After all Indian Airlines under their original terms of setting up was never suppoised to serve markets like Dubai ro Singapoire anyway instead of what is happening now!

And if the" poor Maharajah ends up like a feeble beggar" (to quote you) due to this new move, whatever the rationale, well then they deserve it .After all these years of protectionism , it is sad to see the jewel of JRD Tata now fighting over the Kerala gulf market for its survival! Tough luck!

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-07-02 20:35:43 and read 6347 times.

"Gulf Traveller is not branded a low-cost carrier. It is a full-service single class (read as all-economy class) carrier."

Semantics, semantics.  Smile

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-02 21:55:56 and read 6332 times.

TKMCE -
first of all
Maharaja
You seem to have some gripe against Keralites! What is ur problem? That they are more educated than the average Indian???


I am partly Keralite, living in Chennai.- BesantNagar  Wink/being sarcastic LoL  Wink/being sarcastic but that should not stop your tirade.

don't know much either about this scheme either, but as far as I can see it makes more sense than flying the Gauhati Bangkok route among others!

Firstly, it is remarkable that without knowing much about the scheme, you have commenced a heart thumping testimony for the protection of the Keralite market and our native people. One would imagine that a regular contributor like yourself, would have held ones counsel until some more information about this Machiavellian scheme was available to you.

At no stage did I suggest that It made better sense to operate out of Gauhati than Kerala, in fact it makes eminent sense as the past 20 years or more has shown us, to continue to operate Kerala-Gulf flights with a full fledged Airline, not some stripped down operation, because the truth is, you really cannot go any lower than bargain basement, which is what AI operates out there now.

my earlier Post in this thread places my feeling about this on record The fares were , as you correctly point out extremely high. But with the advent of QR/EK/GF , AI has had to cut down fares as well. However all these carriers have stuck to a level, which is IMHO still higher than the IATA mean rate for the distances traveled.

IndianGuy- My point exactly ! Air India is already Operating a Low Low cost carrier to the Gulf and South east Asia, without a first class (or what they call a First class), without any PTVs, Sky Phones,old battered Aircraft, and crap food for the GULF routes (which are carried from India- in dry ice all the way to the Gulf - for returning Indians.) so I guess they should be credited with having started the first Asian Low budget carrier without even having known it.

Thus even if you have little information on the subject, it is sometimes considered polite, to read completely, the prior thread of conversation.

Of course I have heard about Kurien, who hasnt, but hang on, are you equating this Roy Paul fella with Verghese Kurien ? You need to take a reality break my friend.

Incidentally, you might also like to find out who is the Single largest shareholder at CIAL (Kochi Intl airport ) ?? AI + subsidiaries..With 26% in stocks and redeemable debentures.. So AI has as much at stake commercially, as your mock regionalism.

I don't know who you are, but I grew up watching the government and industry so blatantly ignoring one of their strongest markets in term of facilities and development still remain vivid of everyone from porters to the station managers at Air India misusing their powers when the poor average Keralite had to beg to get his seat cleared to save his job when there was zero competition and Air India restricted frequencies and fleeced those honest passenbgers (and do me a favor by sparing me the sob stories of the bilateral suff please!)

from both our profiles, it is evident I grew up a little before you  Wink/being sarcastic however, I suffer no persecution complex , that you seem to. I am proud of my roots, and their achievements, and I certainly Do not want a cut throat Airline trying to rob me any more,- with even lesser facilities. I would much rather have the real deal. And I do not want anyone trying to profes to give my people a better deal, and in the process demolish an Industrial monolith of free India.

So what makes you think it will be ANY DIFFERENT NOW ??? Even with an AIR India Airline-BUS out of Kerala. ?? Has the situation out of TRV improved at ALL ?? nada. Has It changed the situation of people begging AI station Managers ? Yes it has , slightly. Because now three new managers a QR / EK and GF manager to beg for seats.  Yeah sure Merely because there are more Airlines operating it hasn't changed much, please understand that.

Of the original 5 international airports, is it news to you that Trivandrum Airport alone has more international compared to domestic passengers (something like a 3 :1 ratio) And yet the facitliess as well as the route structure out of Trivandrum was a joke at one stage! And by the way if it is of any interest to you, the biggest benefit to the air traveller in Kerala was done by no congress government, but the communist government in kerala who persuaded the then VP singh governemt to finally declare Trivandrum as the fifth international airport in India

SO how much Improvement have you seen in TRV's facilities int the past decade ??? Will bringing in this cheap charter improve aviation conditions there.?? tell me.Let me also tell you that if you shut down TRV and only left Cochin and Calicut open , that ratio would change. The fact that TRV was Keralas first International Airport, is the reason for the predominance of International over Domestic passengers. But , that is neither here nor there.

thereby throwing open the market to other foreign airlines and also thereby giving the traveller from Kerala a choice, one which they should have had years ago ! And now if they are going to get a a better deal in terms of lower fares who are you to crib about??

When was the last time you travelled out of TRV or cochin ? Is anyone giving anyone a better deal ? The rates may have dipped slightly, but the fares per R & ATKM are still the highest in the world.

As regards your comment on the Airport, it is abundantly clear that you are not aware of the shareholding pattern or the agreements between CIAL and its largest institutional shareholders.It may have been built without direct central government funding, but AI is a PSU unless that does not count for you. (considering your seething rage against allthings Air indian I might imagine that you feel AI is not worthy of being a PSU.)

Perhaps you should enlighten the last 3 chief ministers of kerala that my narrow minded thinking has clouded the stream of their clear reason in such a manner that they have levied the Highest ATF surcharge in the World, thereby increasing the ticket prices for our brethren (as all Airlines pass this on to the passengers). Let us also not forget the sales tax thereon apart from the extraordinary PSF levied out of Kochi.no no, that must be a sign of the care that our Local government has for our valiant laborers.  Wink/being sarcastic

In your rather senseless outburst, you have neglected the main point of my post. That by creating this Frankenstein Kerala State Trasport-cum AI Airline, with leased AI aircraft and AI Crew- the government (be it Anthony, Roy Paul or Rudy ) aren't giving the people of Kerala anything better or new- just cheaper. With NOTHING !

I guess no food is better that food that was frozen and loaded from India  Wink/being sarcastic isn't it ??? and No Booze is better than Grants scotch whisky !! I don't seem to undnerstand the basis of your tirade , though its a free forum.This is not about keralites and non-keralites and neither is it about what air indias managers did 20 years ago.this is about what a handful of guys are tryin to do, to AI, through its subsidiary.

In which case AI may as well pull out and sit tight. and then perhaps our false malyali pride will be assuaged.can you see the writing on the wall ?? LOOK at Frankfurt -India routes.. AI pulled out for political reasons, when the mean fare structure was 1100 DM round trip. As soon as AI dropped out, yields automatically rose, and LH took the round trip fare to 1400Dm and then 1800 DM peak, and began operations from every major Indian hub.

Today though AI has restarted flights, the route yield has stayed up. SO lets guess who lost here, was it LH ?? was it AI ?? or was it the poor Joe banana who travelled from Chennai to Frankfurt, who now has to pay both AI and LH higher fares.

The same fate will befall the kerala-triangle.

Scandal or not I dont care as long as the average Kerala traveller get some benefit. They deserve it ! After all these years! And if Air Iindia bleeds, well tough luck! If they couldnt make use of the protected times when theyt bled the average Kerala Traveller to death, then tough luck! I dont have any sympathies!

Boy ! are you sooooo OBJECTIVE  Wink/being sarcastic Kurien Verghese would be proud,its almost like asking him to kill the entire Milk revolution and Anand, because all the milk from Anand didnt reach kerala ! Or because the BJP government is against release of additional funds to kerala in the next plan outlay.LOL. Or that the Indian central government should have made the kerala State governments pay for the evacuation of the 76,000 Indians from the Gulf (Iraq/AMMAN/Kuwait/S.Arabia during Gulf War-1, a decade ago) because more than 70% of them emanated from kerala.

Betcha, youre in favour of Kerala declaring Independance too  Yeah sure , while we're at it why not proclaim the Tamil Eelam too... Prabhakaran could become joint President of both these new nations.

Ho about doing some route rationalisation etween the internationa routes of Indian Airlines and Air India instead of crying about thingsa like these to sdavage Air India! After all Indian Airlines under their original terms of setting up was never suppoised to serve markets like Dubai ro Singapoire anyway instead of what is happening now!

obviously, you have not rationalised the net Multiplier effect this move will have on the national domestic airline -resulting in depletion of its yields as well.

And if the" poor Maharajah ends up like a feeble beggar" (to quote you) due to this new move, whatever the rationale, well then they deserve it .After all these years of protectionism , it is sad to see the jewel of JRD Tata now fighting over the Kerala gulf market for its survival! Tough luck!

"Protectionism?" The enmy here is nt some outside airline, its peoplewithin its own halllowed corridoors..lmao. SO its like one side of JRD TATAs bejewelled crown trying to pluck precious stones out of the other "












Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: TKMCE
Posted 2003-07-02 23:55:47 and read 6276 times.

Maharaja
They say a malayalis worst enemy a malayali itself and apparently you seem to have proved it. As for my profile, well no problems take pride my friend that you are senior to me in age and I am not grudging you that privilege if that is the case.
And for heavens dont try to make out that I practice regionalism. It is your anti kerala tirade which made me even bother toi revrt to such nonesense in the first place and I am not even goiing to bother revert anymore.
By the way my friend a simple search on these very forums will tell you when I last travelled out of Trivandrum or Cochin. And that also means I have better sense to react to most of your tirade but cannot resist this one

****
Because now three new managers a QR / EK and GF manager to beg for seats
*****

What happened to WY/KU/UL who together operate no less than 18 flights a week out of Trivandrum. And EK has not even entered Trivandrum so far,.
So now will you stop showing off your hallf baked knowlegee and stop questioning others competence exposing your own ignorance!

I am not going to bother to revret any more to you as it is clear to any reasonable person aware of the industry (as evidenced by the comments of a few other respected members in this thread itseff) that your allegations are mostly without basis and apparenly tageting certain people you have apparently some grudge against in the thin guise of being a public forum.Well I have more valuable use of my time to react to such posts anymore and inaddition bore everyone else to death as well!


And one last request - this may be a public forum but I suggest you dont play around with people names and give them the respect they deserve. Public forum doesnt mean that you try to abuse certain decorum.

Thanks

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-07-03 06:16:15 and read 6217 times.

I think you guys need to chill out and realize the following:

a. JRD Tata is dead, and with him the days of young models hand-picked by Bobby Kookah serving caviar to well-heeled types in upper deck lounges of Air India 747s.

b. Since Air India will never see the likes of PTVs and internet connections in coach, all it can do is compete on price. So providing a cheaper all-economy product on routes where price pays a big factor in airline choice seems like a good idea.

c. Eventually air travel - even in Asia - will turn into the Greyhound in the air paradigm we now see in the USA. So, perhaps, for the first time AI are ahead of the curve.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: TKMCE
Posted 2003-07-03 07:33:19 and read 6194 times.

Jay
I agree esp with the last point
*****
c. Eventually air travel - even in Asia - will turn into the Greyhound in the air paradigm we now see in the USA. So, perhaps, for the first time AI are ahead of the curve
*****

Exactly and what way to start off with the "Greyhound" model than the one Air india is now proposing. I for one feel it is a good idea and you start off on a captive market! Most of Air Indias and other gulf carriers flights out of Kerala, the J class is going half empty and in prak season is full of upgrades. AI has invested heavily in Cochin, including as I understand a maintenance facilty for A 310s which helps better aircraft scheduling and less ferry flights to BOM for mandatory checks and this also makes it cost competitive to start their operations there. They are hiring crew locally in Kerala,avoiding expensive lay over costs and the salary advertised (Rs 6500 pm wth Rs 100 per hour flying allowance) is defintely low.
High cost pilots??? Well well well , although they havent called for Pilots as well, I suppose this is the best time to do so, with IPG (the pilots union) down to its knees (and about time too) after their dsastrous fiasco with regard to SAARS. Right time I would say to start off with some reitred /ex IAF pilots. Why not?
I for one would like to give whoever throught this up in Air India some credit for actually coming up with something any airline company can be proud of.

Reminds me of the train journeys (in second class) I undertook when I was a kid from Trivandrum to Bombay. This was a journey of around 46 hours. As far as I remember 95% of the passengers in any sleeper coach would have the first days lunch and dinner packed up and brought from home and some families even used to bring the less perishable snacks like savouries for the second day as well.

In such a price sensitive market, who cares about meals, on flights which are all going to be in the 3 to 4 hour markets. All what is going to happen is that oter airlines will be forced to lower the fares as well. And as for the tax on ATF, the government has already gone on record its intentions to reduce it and now if what ever is being posted is true then they have all the more incentive to do so.

I think iit is high time that we give some credit to the much maligned management of Air india for having come up with such a good idea in this case.

Well done.


Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-03 08:29:49 and read 6180 times.

Firstly, TKMCE let us understand that nothing in what I wrote was anti-Malyali, in fact it was to draw attention to what was being undertaken in the guise of being pro-Kerala. It was your reaction (almost rabidly too) that took the discussion along those lines. Perhaps you might like to revisit your comments in the light of those who posted before you and what was posted.

It is wholly understandable, your rage, is similar to mine was, when I was confronted with this issue. But in time you shall realize, the import of what I have stated. It is neither Personal, nor is it Regional, it is merely concern, and when this Bubble does burst in Parliament,or in the Public domain in India, then perhaps we shall discuss this isssue and its long term ramifications again.

The fact of the Matter is that both You and I agree that keralites have been fleeced for far too long, (see thread above). The difference being, you welcome the dismemberment of AI, into a SKYBUS, in the incorrect belief that it will drive Air Travel Prices down, (true for the short term, but certain Disaster for the Long term). Perhaps the Industry reports of the Impact of low cost Airlines would highlight that better. They are available freely on the Net, mike Meier has a very nice analysis on the subject. In any case your immense knowledge of the Aviation World,will, I am certain, cover the creation and impact of various revenue models of regional aviation. I shall be glad to email you such reports should you wish.

Catch AI doing this kind of trick from any other station ! They only heap crap on Kerala.What has happened here is a few of them have actually missed the Wood for the trees and are encouraging this move.

Finally, No Government (Central or State) or Ministry has a right to dismember AI in the manner that has been planned.

This is Not about KERALA, so don't get so defensive. This is about an imminent shakeout in the Indian Aviation skies,that will swallow AI as its first victim and then go on to swallow others,including this as-yet unborn child. Thus without permitting a Private-cum-foreign carrier (a-la TATA-SIA) we will have a Southern Market that will be dominated by the carriers you mention - UL/KA/WY/ QR / EK and GF or at least some of them. Hell that's not going to bring lower prices, only higher ones.

You are right, I did forget to mention KA, ( and UL etc.. Not because my knowledge was limited to those 3, but as I imagined all would appreciate that the example was merely representative of the fact that there were others in that Sector of the market now.) In fact, I merely reproduced part of an earlier thread .  Wink/being sarcastic But KA is relevant, very much so, especially so in my analogy of "the impact of monopoly carrier on route economics". I only spoke of Germany and LH. Imagine, we in Kerala have a real life example in front of us, on the Kuwait-kerala run. Ever since AI pulled out,some years ago, Prices only went up, and now despite AI re-entering that market, even with the added presence of IAC it still hasn't brought prices down to realistic levels.

I neither wish to get personal nor do I choose to rebut statements made by you that for starters should not have entered the discussion at all. So I shall leave well enough alone, however with one exception, which is related to the original thread :-

that your allegations are mostly without basis and apparenly tageting certain people you have apparently some grudge against in the thin guise of being a public forum.

You have not Specified ONE allegation that was without foundation, nor One person who has been targeted unreasonably, merely skirted and attacked the tilt of my article as being anti-Kerala.

1. Can you deny that certain sections of Government/AI officials are creating this company.? Can it be denied that it is these Wise men?
2. Can it be denied that it will dismember AI.
3. Can it be denied that it will cause AI revenues to fall
4. Can it be denied that it will offer an even Poorer Product to keralites, already suffering from the pathetic AI product for 2 decades.
5. Can it be denied that with the exception of K.Roy Paul each and every one of the AI officials involved in this Carrier were the same persons who were indicted by the CBI in the Carib Jet scandal. ( an ongoing investigation)
6. Can it be denied that the 3 others (non-technical personnel) involved on this project, are the ones who were a part of the now failed AI Pension Scandal ? (from HR,IR and Accounts)
7. Can it be denied that the very first CEO-Designate of the new subsidiary (he has just rejected the offer, I hear !) is a Director of AI who not only has been involved in the CARIB JET SCAM, but also the PENSION SCAM.

I have seen documentary evidence of what has been posted, and in time shall be glad to share the same.

I concede that it may provide cheaper travel, in the immediate short term, no longer than a few months- maximum period of a year. Beyond that period the operating losses will itself kill the project. Any Low cost carrier using AI employees and AI aircraft will find itself brought down by the albatross of the AI employees wage bill and the Aircraft Maintenance bill. The Government will not step in anymore to aid either AI or the new low cost carrier, and that will spell doom for both.

Let the Government (Centre or State) create an entirely new carrier, only for the Kerala-Gulf route, should it so desire, with separate Aircraft (leased/owned) and a fresh group of employees, on a joint Public-Private sector initiative like CIAL, and let the market flourish.

Lets face it , the pockets of almost every other carrier operating into/out of the Kerala golden triangle are far deeper than AI, and they can go on subsidizing losses in a fare war. A fare war only benefits the consumer in the very short term, for the longer term, the ones with the larger pockets stay afloat and then recoup every penny from the hapless consumer.

That my friend is the issue, not Kerala or Keralites. It just so happens that the principal players of the entire imbroglio are the very same who botched it up with CARIB JET, and a few of them happen to be Keralites, attempting to pander to the kerala government and playing around with the Largest Market.

And one last request - this may be a public forum but I suggest you don't play around with people names and give them the respect they deserve. Public forum doesn't mean that you try to abuse certain decorum.

RESPECT ? Does a man who is on an extension (against cabinet norms) really deserve respect when he is dismembering an Airline that nurtured him for 37 years ? Or lets question the other man who is merely days away from being put away to pasture, (after his first and hopefully last extension) over the right and the temerity to take such decisions. ? There must be Probity in Public life and there must be enlightened decisions based on ethical management of national resources, my friend. Not whimsical actions of a few. You be the Judge.

As you will have noticed I have been posting only for a few years, in an extremely limited fashion, restricted only to AI, as I have seen it up close and personal and my information is reliable and genuine.Though I have been a product of its system, I hold no brief for anyone, and though I may not like what it is today, (in fact ABHOR , would be more appropriate) it does not diminish the fact that AI has been a source of national pride for so many. At a time when our country struggled under PL480 norms, AI flew high into that same nation, bringing great Pride. True this is only the legacy of the great man JRD, but the least we can do is fulfill our duty to the late Mr.Tata to ensure that these little pygmies don't dismember it in this manner.

Vanakam & Regards.
Maharaja.

jaysit: AI is already the greyhound of Asian and World Air travel. They are now relegating it to a position even beyond that.
forget providing PTVs and Internet in Coach, they don't even provide that in first. LOL  Laugh out loud and as for the InterNet, they struggle to offer that in their business Lounges at Airports. But it still is the great Tata-Kooka legend, lets keep it alive !!

cheers guys.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: TKMCE
Posted 2003-07-03 09:22:24 and read 6170 times.

Maharajah
Thank you for taking your time to post the rebuttal whose contents i appreciate. I will also admit that I may have been sounding PRO Malayali as you said, but you will have to understand it against the frustrations of handling a market which despite (as we both agree) of being one of the most lucrative markets which kept Air India afloat, was still being literally held to ransom mainly due to protectionism abd explotation by Air India who managed to lobby the government of India to preserve that status (I havent forgotten the report I read in the Hindu about India UAE bilaterals a couple of decades back - "the request for Gulf Air to operate to Trivandrum has been NOTED, however Calcutta has been offered as an alternative"). That said you initial posting gave an impression that is the three peronailties who you have mentioned who all incdentally were malayalis who alone were to be blamed for AIs evils.As you mentioned CaribJet had quite a few people being under investigation but in your first post I notice other than Naresh Goyal. every other person who you mention has been Malayalais and as you yourself said Roy Paul had precious little to do with Air India till he took over hs current post. Ofcourse he might have his interests in furthering his nest egg bwith a new post after retirement, but put it that way, how many top bureacurats in India whe heartedly says " I shall retire in peace... no extensions for me" and dont entertain hopes of getting something or the other??Also how about the infamous spat between a formert AI MD and his successor and ex finance director. Well those people all non malayalis as well are also I am sure you agree resposbile for getting AI into the mess it is today not to to forget another gentleman with his famous SUN obsession.
Back to the point,if I sounded pro malayali, well I express my regrets as that stance was only to highlight the travails of the malayali air travellers, the people who fly the bread and butter route of Air India and subisdies the loss making routes elsewhere including those wonderfull european and us routes which has been steadily loosing money.
I would also say that my respect for the bureacurats and polticians in my home state has gone up more than a little after CIAL (cochin). Ok the project might still be loosing money for various reasons, but then you also have to keep in mind that CIAL is still a path breaker in the Indian aviation scene in the sense that the project came up more or less on schedule without much over runs which you should admit is a great achievemt.The economic power states of Naidus Hyderabad and Krishna BLR is still stuggling to get the project off the ground while a hitherto unknown state notorious for its pro labor stand actually had soemtjhing up and running for every one to see. The bloke who was given the task was an IAS officer with little previos experience and my initial reaciton at that time was - well a nice secure posting ina nice city plus opportunity for lot of foreign junkets -To everyoines surprise he delivered!

That said let me confess I know little about the various AI scams you mentioned.I dont have anything to do with Air india other than as part of dealing with them in my work and the less about aviation journalism in India the better. It is ONE BIG JOKE as you yoursef will admit. So as and when things come out in public though official enquiry report etc (if it comes out all), I prefer to reserve my judgement.

I am the one who brought up this issue of AI charters in this forum (after seeing their Ad in the AI website) and ny only interest in the topic is to find out about their proposed model and see lf it is vialbe . Having studied the UK and US low cost models i some depth (not to forget Skytrain ,te grand daddy of it all), the understanding I have got so far is that India is ripe for a low cost player both in the regional (gulf ans well as E asia) as well as Domestic where Deccan has already announced its planms top start up.
In this regard I would be glad to take up your offer of those reports you mnentioned, My emai ls in my profile and it will be good if you are able to let me know the details.

Thanks once again for taking the tine to clarify your stand.

Regards

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-07-03 09:30:26 and read 6155 times.


Maharaja: You do not sound like a half-Mallu at all, not even a cross-breed lol! With your baseless regional paranoia about "south indians" and keralites, you come across more like one of those Shiv Sena/BJP Shakha Adhikari types, instigating Maharashtrians against English speaking Keralites taking away jobs! The solution ofcourse is not learn English yourself, but to beat up others who do!

Infact it is the Shiv Sena backed labor unions at Air India who would not like a major hub to be develop outside of BOM which is where these characters are so active. I think you are representative of that crowd.I find it really sad that some Indians dont see themselves as Indians but Marathi, Punjoo, Mallu or whatever! Makes me sick!

Ok now to get back! I also do not think this AICL is a very good idea, but not for the reasons you put across. This whole AICL idea comes across as a post-retirement plan thought out by some genius at AI, and picked up by politicians in Kerala and New Delhi pandering to their vote banks. Expect a nasty cat-fight between the Congress and the BJP claiming "credit" for this half-baked venture, until it falls flat, when it will quickly become the others fault!

Couple of questions here. Other Gulf carriers are managing to operate with full service levels on these Kerala-Gulf routes. Why not AI? AI does not provide any of the sort of IFE as provided by the ME carriers. Based on my limited experience with SIN/KUL and some domestic flights, i would have thought AI is better in the Food dept, but here too as you say things are very bad! The question is why? What are they doing wrong?

Well, i think AI should be taking a long, hard look and try to solve these problems. I believe that AI has failed to build up BOM as a decent hub, connecting Africa and the ME to the SEA. Thats what I think AI's role should be, and building up another Hub would be stretching themseleves too thin.

The Kerala-Gulf market is no doubt very important in the overall scheme of things. But AI should be working the Kerala market within the framework of the current brand itself. Instead of sub-branding, they should be sub-hubbing and work on proper scheduling. For example, some aircraft could be based in COK/TRV and "rotated" back to BOM on a weekly basis for maintainance(A-checks?). Right now, the A310/B742 aircraft typically must return to BOM within 72 hours of leaving base. This is why AI has these flights running from COK/TRV/CCJ to BOM in the middle of the night/early mornings! These are essentially ferry flights returning to base. Instead, the 310's could be BASED at COK and rotated back to Base-HQ every week. With 6 A310's at COK (say), a convenient daily BOM-COK-BOM run could also be scheduled. AI could actually become a player in the Kerala domestic market! Similarly, DEL could also be developed as a separate sub-Hub.

IC is already doing that on the domestic front. A320's are based overnight at over a dozen locations across the country like AMD, CCU etc. These aircraft are "rotated" back to base at DEL every week or so, to be replaced by other aircraft. This kind of round-robin scheduling ensures better utilisation of the entire fleet as compared to the conventional Hubbing method that AI uses.

Some have quoted IC launching Alliance Air as an example. But its one thing for an airline (like IC) with 65 aircraft to set up a subsidiary with a dozen aircraft. Also the dozen aircraft transferred to Alliance were the ageing, high-cycle 737 aircraft that IC couldnt find buyers for. Also some babus realised too late in the day, that the A320's were too heavy to be operated to destinations like IDR, BHJ and the old COK. When a dozen private carriers closed down in the early nineties, a whole bunch of 737 pilots who had deserted IC came back in droves, and willing to be employed at a fraction of what they were paid earlier! They could not be employed on contract by IC itself! Finally, Transferring the IC owned 737's out to a subsidiary also helped the accountants, err, "balance"/cook the account books at IC as well!(I am not at liberty disclose much, but there was plenty of cooking involved, albeit beneficial to IC!). Also, Alliance is hardly a separate brand and IC handles all the ticketing and handling for CD.

But AI, with barely 2 dozen aircraft of its own, putting aside 8-10 aircraft into this sub-fleet with a different configuration and branding is sheer madness. There are no benefits that could accrue through creative Accounting either, atleast not to Air India, officials i cant say!

So considering all this, I dont think putting together a separately branded carrier in COK is a very good idea.

AI DOES need a subsidiary, but what they need is "Air India Express" and not "Lungi Express". AI needs a domestic subsidiary to operate feeders, basically what the ill-fated Vayudoot was once supposed to do. THAT is what AI needs to SERIOUSLY consider. The new Vayudoot, with half a dozen CRJ200 type aircraft, could operate as "Air India Express", feeding pax into mainline AI flights from destinations like NAG, AMD, GOI, PNQ and others. The 50/70 seat jets are perfectly suited for this role. In addition, Better synergy of operations with IC could also help drop the BOM-DEL tag on many intl. sectors and result in better operational efficiency. AI pax could complete check-in and immigration at DEL and board IC flights for BOM and can be transferred onto AI flights. AI could also operate turnaround flights on its own eqpt to destinations like DEL and BLR at convenient times using the 310 sized aircraft. Arrangements should be made to enable seamless transfer.

DEL and COK are ideal to be developed as "sub-hub's" as previously stated, but WITHIN the existing brand.

-Roy

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-07-03 14:59:06 and read 6113 times.

"Well, i think AI should be taking a long, hard look and try to solve these problems. I believe that AI has failed to build up BOM as a decent hub, connecting Africa and the ME to the SEA."

"AI DOES need a subsidiary, but what they need is "Air India Express"

Couldn't agree with you more. But then dont count on the babus running this airline to do anything that would dilute their own interests. After flying Air India this spring I've realized that the carrier is just a perennial source of sub-contract kickbacks for a pyramid of thugs and thieves with the so-called Ministry of Aviation at the top. Unless this carrier gets sold to a private interest, nothing good will happen.

Topic: Scandal IN Air INDIA....again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-05 09:31:23 and read 6069 times.

TKMCE -
"Thank you for taking your time to post the rebuttal whose contents i appreciate. I will also admit that I may have been sounding PRO Malayali as you said, but you will have to understand it against the frustrations of handling a market which despite (as we both agree) of being one of the most lucrative markets which kept Air India afloat, was still being literally held to ransom mainly due to protectionism abd explotation by Air India who managed to lobby the government of India to preserve that status (I havent forgotten the report I read in the Hindu about India UAE bilaterals a couple of decades back "

Sorry for not replying earlier, I had to rush to Kochi, (Mattancheri) to see an ailing elder. You are most welcome,buddy, the clarification was due perhaps the deep rooted Malyali Pride in both you and me came through a little stronger than it should have. haahaha. But no offense was meant to either you or anyone else. The rationale for my post was purely to draw attention to the danger in creating a Low cost Airline within an Airline brand, which I still feel cannot work over the long term.It will damage AI's Brand (or whatever is left).

Maybe the guys at AI got the basic idea correct, that of creating a Low-cost carrier, but then it should have extended that idea and created another Airline Brand altogeter, with its entire infrastructure separate. Staff, Aircraft,Ticketing etc.and then run it on routes it chose to, giving the Customer the prefrence of opting for either a Low cost Carrier or the numerous other carriers also operating on that route. (including also its own parent brand AI)


am the one who brought up this issue of AI charters in this forum (after seeing their Ad in the AI website) and ny only interest in the topic is to find out about their proposed model and see lf it is vialbe . Having studied the UK and US low cost models i some depth (not to forget Skytrain ,te grand daddy of it all), the understanding I have got so far is that India is ripe for a low cost player both in the regional (gulf ans well as E asia) as well as Domestic where Deccan has already announced its planms top start up.

I do understand that you did bring up the issue first, didnt realise when I first posted- saw it later on, and I think you did all a great service, I agree with you about the part on the various scandals in AI and the Government. ONE BIG JOKE Nothing much ever comes off Public enquiries, but I shall Send you what my sources in R.Gandhi Bhuvan have obtained, in due course.

Lastly, I cannot agree more that India is ripe for a low cost carrier, like the SKYTRAIN on two levels. A shakeout is needed domestically where rates are still exorbitant, and for the outbound International routes. However AI should not be it, maybe government should get AI, IAC, and some State/ Central /Private Funding institutions to join together and create this new Low cost carrier, with an All Contract outsourced Staff. The proposed AI model is a fine example of a good idea turning out half baked in many ways.

What AI needs to have in this Low cost Carrier is a new Work ethic, on ground and in the Air. As long as you have a mix of this and that, its going to spoil the barrell of new apples. "The Public Sector-we are-doing-you-a-favour-by-letting-you-fly-Mindset" MUST GO. So by replacing the Inflight Crew with young cheap recruits is only one part, what about the Lords of the Rings in the Cockpit ? What of their $110 per hour allowance and the 2.5 Lak rupees pay packets ? Wont help drive down Operational costs is it? And their Princely attitudes ? Despite crushing both those Unions the culture still remains, as it shall on this low cost carrier.

So lets see how this cookie crumbles Big grin

Topic: Scandal In AIR-INDIA ...again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-05 11:23:49 and read 6040 times.

Indian Guy
Maharaja: You do not sound like a half-Mallu at all, not even a cross-breed lol! With your baseless regional paranoia about "south indians" and keralites, you come across more like one of those Shiv Sena/BJP Shakha Adhikari types, instigating Maharashtrians against English speaking Keralites taking away jobs! The solution ofcourse is not learn English yourself, but to beat up others who do!

LoL Big grin and what does a half-Mallu sound like ?  Wink/being sarcastic In fact FYI, I am a cross-breed . Lmao, Tamilian and Mallu, and proud of my heritage.

BTW  Wink/being sarcastic the implication of your statment suggests that you too are a tad regionally paranoid  Wink/being sarcastic if not chauvanisitc. Beacuse as a Nationally-Integrated minded Indian you would would probably hesitate to compartmentalise us as Mallus/ half-mallus or even cross-breeds. LMAO . But its cool, I get your drift Roy.

I hope I did not sound rabid and communal as those Shive Sena /BJP guys !
Yeah sure I would hate to think that my Commie values had got obliterated by the current flow of bigotry we witness in India.  Wink/being sarcastic and hey, if my Bright RED streak didnt show up loud enough, then it only means I have adjusted my views with contemporary Capitalist values..lol am thrilled.

BTW ? Yeah sure whats shakh adhikari ? I think it adhikari means official ?

You are absolutely correct, AI has got all things wrong , esp in the Food dept. because they are cutting back everywhere. All ME airlines do better than them, but perhaps the worst aspect is their attitude and that needs to go. This was what I had sought to bring out , right at the outset of this post - that -

"HELL, what does AI need a low cost no frills service from Kerala for ??" they are already providing about the Lowest class of Service on that route already. LMAO  Smile/happy/getting dizzy) Even when compared to the AI services on other routes, leave aside the Middle Eastern carriers who provide luxury.

SO what I can forsee is that these AI Johnnies will withdraw the little they currently offer,and then drop prices by Rs.500 or so (from air-fares that are already at the highest Per ATKM on earth) and roll in the moolah.

Unfortunately, because of AI's fleet and Pilot constraints this service will be on AI's own aircraft, with its own Pilots therefore it will not Suppliment AI Gulf services but replace them either completely or partially. (Also Highest paid Pilots in the world, will mean HIGH Ops cost- not a good recipe for Low cost carrier). This low coast poaching on AIs high yield route will in turn reduce AI revenues, and cause its losses to burgeon, as the Gulf cross-subsidy will be lost to AIs European/US services.

So we end up with a Sick AI, and the low-cost carrier may end up in a fare war with the Oil-rich Gulf owned carriers with deep pockets, and eventually even that may die if the Operational costs are not within control.

Infact it is the Shiv Sena backed labor unions at Air India who would not like a major hub to be develop outside of BOM which is where these characters are so active. I think you are representative of that crowd.I find it really sad that some Indians dont see themselves as Indians but Marathi, Punjoo, Mallu or whatever! Makes me sick

Issue-1 : I thought the Sive Sena only had 1 union -aircrew. I stand corrected if its more than that, and havent they already permitted a major Crew hub at Delhi with locals. ?

Issue-2 : Are you not aware that the rabid party has spread its roots all over india although in a small way. In fact they have a strong Kerala Sena.  Wink/being sarcastic Maybe I should join them LoL.

Have you heard, that the Shive Sena wants to send all Mallus, Biharis and UPites out of Bombay.? And this partys leader is the speaker of our Parliament  Wow! The man who was accussed in the Hindu- Muslim riots of Nineties. lmao is trying to bring order and direct the functioning of our great democracy.

But seriously, youre right . It is sick that people do not see themselves as Indians. But that unfortunately is the nature of todays India. A factor created by our Vile Politicians themselves, to enrich their own vote banks. I guess we will have to wait for another Gandhiji ,or even a JP would do.

This whole AICL idea comes across as a post-retirement plan thought out by some genius at AI, and picked up by politicians in Kerala and New Delhi pandering to their vote banks. Expect a nasty cat-fight between the Congress and the BJP claiming "credit" for this half-baked venture, until it falls flat, when it will quickly become the others fault!

EXACTLY, my friend I think that is exactly what this darn thingie seems to be, and since I have a long term affinity for AI, (despite everything) I hate what these jokers are doing. I wonder, why they dont just get Service and their act together, put money into new hardware and people and lets start anew. Start with offering your best to the Golden Gulf triangle, and continue elsewehre. Start a darn Low cst carrier if thats what is politically expedient and commercially needed, but not by killing or bleeding AI. This is the Aviation markets scheme of Dividend stripping or asset stripping.

Some have quoted IC launching Alliance Air as an example. But its one thing for an airline (like IC) with 65 aircraft to set up a subsidiary with a dozen aircraft. Also the dozen aircraft transferred to Alliance were the ageing, high-cycle 737 aircraft that IC couldnt find buyers for. Also some babus realised too late in the day, that the A320's were too heavy to be operated to destinations like IDR, BHJ and the old COK. When a dozen private carriers closed down in the early nineties, a whole bunch of 737 pilots who had deserted IC came back in droves, and willing to be employed at a fraction of what they were paid earlier! They could not be employed on contract by IC itself! Finally, Transferring the IC owned 737's out to a subsidiary also helped the accountants, err, "balance"/cook the account books at IC as well!(I am not at liberty disclose much, but there was plenty of cooking involved, albeit beneficial to IC!). Also, Alliance is hardly a separate brand and IC handles all the ticketing and handling for CD.

I disagree with those who have quoted that the AI model is along the CD lines, or even that it has been concieved in that manner. for starters, I do not think CD fares are Lower than IC and further more neither is CD a Low-cost-no frills-Airline" But you are absolutely correct about the basing of Aircraft and the optimum fleet size of IC vis a vis AI to even attempt something like this. AI is way behind the eight ball on this front.

"AIR-INDIA EXPRESS" Great concept ! Let them do it with a new fleet of tiny leased aircraft, and no neta-babudom involved. hahaha. You have the right ideas on the AI officials cooking the books as well. Lmao.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy




Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-07-05 12:17:55 and read 6022 times.

havent they already permitted a major Crew hub at Delhi with locals. ?

Delhi base is hardly "major" and there was no local hiring for there. It was a voluntary transfer system for existing BOM base (including union members) who wished to relocate.

Topic: Scandal In Air INDIA...again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-05 13:46:25 and read 5985 times.

Gothca Sean. oh ! no local hiring.. hmmm okay. What about this recruitment of May 2003, for 400 vacancies. Any chance they are going to Delhi base or all Bombay. ?

Sean :- Any take on this entire low cost airline issue ? Havent heard much from you in this string of posts. BTW : AI sacked the first 4 of those 52 suspended Pilots yesterday. These 4 sackings of full time employed Pilots now add to the 3 termination of contracted Pilots during the strike itself. All Commanders in this Lot, including 2 yesteryear leaders of the IPG, except 1 FO under Command training.

Unfortunate, but neccessary I guess.

Topic: Scandal In Air INDIA...again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-05 14:11:41 and read 5972 times.

Gothca Sean. oh ! no local hiring.. hmmm okay. What about this recruitment of May 2003, for 400 vacancies. Any chance they are going to Delhi base or all Bombay. ?

Sean :- Any take on this entire low cost airline issue ? Havent heard much from you in this string of posts. BTW : AI sacked the first 4 of those 52 suspended Pilots yesterday. These 4 sackings of full time employed Pilots now add to the 3 termination of contracted Pilots during the strike itself. All Commanders in this Lot, including 2 yesteryear leaders of the IPG, except 1 FO under Command training.

Unfortunate, but neccessary I guess.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-07-05 14:39:48 and read 5966 times.

Any chance they are going to Delhi base or all Bombay. ?

I'm not sure about current setup in Delhi base but for a very long time they were "bottom heavy" in seniority, so there were plenty of AFP/FP and junior AH, but only a handful of CFP/CAH and IFS based there. As a result, there was a constant hassle of having to position Mumbai base crew to Delhi to mix, thus negating the benefits of operating a Delhi base in the first place. Hence assigning the new recruits to Delhi (where there are no training facilities nor sufficient check crew) would be highly unlikely. If they try to force existing crew to accept unilateral involuntary assignment to DEL base, then we can expect the union to raise hell - and rightly so. AI's schedule is not so complex that a DEL base is needed anyway, what with plenty of BOM-DEL-BOM legs that need to be operated. The setup of DEL base was purely a carrot for someone in the organisation (I forget who) that made very little operational sense.

The termination of the pilots should come as no surprise. The only surprise actually is how the contract pilots could have been so stupid to strike in the first place. Especially some of the pilots (who shall remain nameless here) whose colorful exploits in Frankfurt a few years ago should have kept them grateful to have any job let alone a four stripe pay package past the age of superannuation! And the former IPG head (who is due to retire this month anyway isn't he?) burned his PR bridges after he refused to operate a flight out of concern for SARS but then was willing to fly in First Class on the same plane. Ironically, most of the terminated folks are old family friends (and very reliable contacts to release jumpseats when needed!), but I have very little sympathy for them on this issue.

[Edited 2003-07-05 14:43:29]

Topic: Scandal In Air INDIA...Again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-06 08:09:41 and read 5821 times.

The only surprise actually is how the contract pilots could have been so stupid to strike in the first place. Especially some of the pilots (who shall remain nameless here) whose colorful exploits in Frankfurt a few years ago should have kept them grateful to have any job let alone a four stripe pay package past the age of superannuation!

Colourful exploits?? ? Yeah sure Not sure about what you mean !

And the former IPG head (who is due to retire this month anyway isn't he?) burned his PR bridges after he refused to operate a flight out of concern for SARS but then was willing to fly in First Class on the same plane.

No No ! Sean I think you have the wrong IPG head. This is an AB-310 guy, probably earlier IPG leader.

Bottom line, the Pilots are squabbling, shooting each other out of the air, whilst the Managment is having the last laugh.

 Acting devilish Now if only they could find a way to lower the Hourly rates and cut out the devilish Shortcall allowance. LOL Now we're really talking Low cost Operations  Wink/being sarcastic

Topic: Scandal IN Air INDIA...again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-11 07:12:45 and read 5684 times.

Very Interesting news around guys.
www.asianage.com http://www.asianage.com/main.asp?layout=2&cat1=1&cat2=22&newsid=60771&RF=DefaultMain

The Boeing Co with its 737 (& Naresh Goel) won out in the end.

Strange coincidence ..dont you think, that the Airline plumped for the 737 finally.Please see the intial Post on "Scandal in AIR-INDIA...again

I can only see Naresh Goel licking his lips with the twin delight of utilising his spare 737 Engineering +simualtor capacity (built on space leased from AI at Santa Cruz) and the fact of his International Airline dream coming true, through the Charter route.

What the Hell, he has a great Airline, and deserves the luck. LOL

Woe begotten Air India will now have to make some sense out of their cock-a-mamie plan. Lets pray for them and hope to God this works.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2003-07-11 18:33:05 and read 5589 times.

Strange coincidence ..dont you think, that the Airline plumped for the 737 finally.

No secret here. The Boeing deal has been a done deal since MARCH for both the 737 and 777 as I have regularly posted here. They simply delayed because of all the naatak with the pilots and SARS, etc...

Topic: Scnadal In Air India ...again
Username: Maharaja
Posted 2003-07-13 13:47:36 and read 5454 times.

The Boeing deal has been a done deal since MARCH for both the 737 and 777 as I have regularly posted here. They simply delayed because of all the naatak with the pilots and SARS, etc...

Sorry sean, I must have missed that Post, but thanks.

Hell but the latest news is that they are going to ask both Aircraft manufacturers to rebid- financially. "to make it a strategic decision, in line with the Nations Strategic interest"

See www.asianage.com

Ciao

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Indianguy
Posted 2003-07-14 04:33:45 and read 5383 times.


"to make it a strategic decision, in line with the Nations Strategic interest"

Meaning GIVE some orders to poor Boeing. IC has already plumped for the Airbus, and a lot of pressure is being put on the govt to order 737's instead, even though IC already operates an all Airbus fleet. And then the whole AI issue.

Saying that AI should order Boeings because it is in "national interest" is accepting that it is being done under American pressure. Ai's order should be based on technical issues and not politics.

If Boeing is resorting to this kind of political lobbying, maybe its because they NEED the lobbying to make up for their trashy products.

I think National Interest lies in getting the best deal. A combnined AI/IC for AIrbus aircraft (43 A319/320/321 for IC + 18 A320 and 17 A332/A345 for AI) would help us get a sweetheart deal from Airbus. I think THATS where our national interest lies.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2003-07-14 04:43:21 and read 5369 times.

"If Boeing is resorting to this kind of political lobbying, maybe its because they NEED the lobbying to make up for their trashy products."

Since when did the Boeing 777 become a trashy product? Or the Boeing 737-800?
Please, get a grip on reality.

Topic: RE: Scandal IN Air INDIA...AGAIN
Username: TKMCE
Posted 2003-07-14 08:53:38 and read 5316 times.

Roy
*****
If Boeing is resorting to this kind of political lobbying, maybe its because they NEED the lobbying to make up for their trashy products
*****

Apparently you seem to be head over heals for Airbus. So what is the sweetener? A FAM trip to Toulouse in the distant future (for A Net lobbying)???? Or did some condensation drip from a unfortunate Boeing overhead panel and mess up your newspaper???

Just a few idle thoughts!

Cheers


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