Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/1224773/

Topic: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Ord
Posted 2003-10-14 00:44:15 and read 9210 times.

It looks like Delta's new winter schedule has a 777 flying from Atlanta to Los Angeles. Flight times are as follows:

ATL-LAX
10:50A - 12:35P

LAX-ATL
1:45P - 8:55P

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Flashmeister
Posted 2003-10-14 00:45:41 and read 9170 times.

Wow - why though? With as few 777s DL has, this seems a little wasteful...

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: 9V-SVE
Posted 2003-10-14 00:55:59 and read 9113 times.

Maybe to utilize the aircraft when it just sits on the ground before the wave of European/Tokyo flights depart?

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Trvlr
Posted 2003-10-14 00:56:29 and read 9113 times.

Maybe the plane comes from Tokyo, and has some dead time before it's scheduled to fly to Europe. At least I hope that's the case, because I totally agree with Flashmeister that it seems like a waste.

Aaron G.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Flyer732
Posted 2003-10-14 00:58:36 and read 9099 times.

It could be the NRT spare aircraft.

When DL had more MD11s around they usualy had one that departed shortly after the ATL-NRT flight departed. If they needed an aircraft, they'd just swap the two.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Flyboyaz
Posted 2003-10-14 01:15:51 and read 9039 times.

I heard they were going to ramp up the ATL-LAX route because FL and B6 are flying that market now...B6 is of course LGB, but that's close enough.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Flashmeister
Posted 2003-10-14 01:19:40 and read 9002 times.

DL better be careful if that's the case and not get caught for dumping in that market... I assume that ATL-LAX was a 767 market before?

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: N670UW
Posted 2003-10-14 01:35:08 and read 8938 times.

DL ran an MD-11 on the early ATL-LAX (summer only, I think), even before B6 began LGB-ATL.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Thrust
Posted 2003-10-14 02:14:40 and read 8847 times.

Very shocking news to me, but I wish Delta would focus more on the international market? Does Delta plan to add the 777 onto more international routes as well? What about the 767-400s? I think Delta needs to put these two first on the international service routes, especially the 767-400. The 777 serves Frankfurt and London Gatwick, but I think they should expand it to ZRH and NRT, as well as the 767-400, but keep the 767-300ER overseas as well.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: TokyoNarita
Posted 2003-10-14 02:20:24 and read 8801 times.

They will probably rotate the 3 B777s like how they do with the three MD-11s they have left now. One does flight 55 and one does flight 56. The spare, instead of sitting in ATL all day, it can do the LAX roundtrip. If one B777 breaks down or go out of service in ATL they can throw that spare to NRT and throw in a 763 or 764 for LAX roundtrip.

TokyoNarita

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-14 02:25:14 and read 8786 times.

DL has mixed up the ATL-LAX aircraft. In the past few years, I have seen it operate with a MD-11,B757,767-200,767-300Biz,767-300Dom,767-400,L-1011-x.

The 777 will be a great compliment to the market traffic, especially for that long of a flight. Where DL operates the 777 ATL-MCO - I think that is a waste as the short distance can allow you to increase frequency, IMHO. But they move a lot of people to DisneyWorld  Smile

The passengers would like that, I suppose, unless it is full. But it may be a rotational/spare operational move -= coincidentally there with B6 presence.

They also may be trying a slick trick - with the demand about the same, if you add more seats to the route (the 777 has accomodation for 277 pax the way DL equips it) and lets say this 777 flight is replacing a B-763Biz aircraft, (which has 190 seats as DL equips it) that gives you 87 more seats per day that could be available at DL's L, U, and T fares - probably similar to that offered by B6 and others - Like fare code U is $278 round-trip with taxes ATL-LAX non-stop when purchased online. T fares would likely be only available via connection and not ATL Origin or Destination - like SAV-ATL fare code T is $348. Not bad prices!

But those 87 seats @ a lower fare code are suspicously close to a B6 aircraft's capacity! Just 'nuff to tick them off hm.....

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2003-10-14 02:29:07 and read 8761 times.

The 777 flight from ATL to LAX is not anymore waisteful than flying the 777 between ATL and MCO. AA flies 777's between MIA (?) and DFW to LAX. UA flies them routinely between ORD and DEN to LAX. The 777 doesn't hold any more than their L-1011's did in the past.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2003-10-14 02:29:15 and read 8766 times.

The 777 flight from ATL to LAX is not anymore waisteful than flying the 777 between ATL and MCO. AA flies 777's between MIA (?) and DFW to LAX. UA flies them routinely between ORD and DEN to LAX. The 777 doesn't hold any more than their L-1011's did in the past.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-14 02:36:12 and read 8726 times.

OK - the takeaway is, if you can fill it, fly it.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2003-10-14 03:43:16 and read 8612 times.

You will not see a DL 764 in Europe, probably ever, but certainly not for a long time.

Don't confuse yourselves - this is an airplane that would be sitting on the ground otherwise. Glad DL is making use of it. There will be no increased 777 flying to Europe, DL already has every frame that can be utilized on such a route utilized - they keep one 777 for a spare.

United has many flights that originate in SFO, go to ORD or IAD, continue to Europe, then return to SFO by way of ORD or IAD. DL may be doing the same thing with a thru service to Europe from LAX.

N

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Futureualpilot
Posted 2003-10-14 03:50:30 and read 8585 times.

Allright! A DL 777 scheduled to the west coast! Its about time!....maybe they'll fill BA's 777 slot here in SAN with service to ATL or JFK or something
....wishful thinking, I know...

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-14 03:54:26 and read 8550 times.

Gigneil: You will never see a 764 in Europe. They don't equip them with the BusinessElite configuration.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: DeltaSFO
Posted 2003-10-14 08:20:19 and read 8364 times.

They will probably rotate the 3 B777s like how they do with the three MD-11s they have left now. One does flight 55 and one does flight 56. The spare, instead of sitting in ATL all day, it can do the LAX roundtrip. If one B777 breaks down or go out of service in ATL they can throw that spare to NRT and throw in a 763 or 764 for LAX roundtrip.

That is precisely what the idea is.

DL may be doing the same thing with a thru service to Europe from LAX.

No, DL115 and DL114 terminate in LAX and ATL, respectively.

Very shocking news to me, but I wish Delta would focus more on the international market? Does Delta plan to add the 777 onto more international routes as well?

Delta just added the 777 on ATL-AMS service. The 777 now serves LGW, CDG, FRA, and AMS. NRT will come in January 2004.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: ScottysAir
Posted 2003-10-14 12:48:08 and read 8270 times.

Yep! This is would be very good move with DL. This is way that will get added more B777 delivery anytime soon. Those are quite doing very well with flight of ATL-LAX.

Topic: RE: Aviation Lovers- We Are Not Terrorists. Speak
Username: BN747
Posted 2003-10-15 09:25:23 and read 8019 times.

Timing is everything! DL brings their 777 into LAX just as CO is pulling theirs out! Unbelievable! Given the time that DL 777 is on the ground and if CO had retained their svc. In April 2004 when AA begins LAX-AA), Japan">NRT. All four US carriers operating 777s would be on the ground and lined up respectively.
T4 - 2/3-AA 777s 1000-1300 (LHR 777 arr 1400)
T5 - DL 777 1050-1235
T6 - CO 777 1030-1230
T6 - UA 777s all day long
T7 - UA 777s all day long

Imagine the line up and photo opportunities from 1100-1230!
CO has started and stopped 777 svc 4 times now...if that's any clue, odds are they'll be back!


BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Modesto2
Posted 2003-10-15 09:56:47 and read 7990 times.

Finally! In a time when airlines are cutting back, it's nice to see DL take their flagship west of...ATL! I simply can't wait to catch a DL triple 7 at LAX.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: BN747
Posted 2003-10-15 13:05:36 and read 7961 times.

Modesto2 they had 777 charters here in late Apr/May sometimes two were on the grown at the same time.

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: PeachAir
Posted 2003-10-15 14:39:41 and read 7877 times.

All,

It is very interesting to watch everybody speculate as to why Delta is flying Boeing 777's to LAX. The real reason why Delta is doing this is to give newly trained pilots time in the 777, and to give trainees jump seat time outside of the simulators and this is something Delta has done many times before with different aircraft. The MD-11's are coming off line and those pilots need seat time in the B777 before they actually start flying the long hauls. The B777 will start service to NRT on Jan 1, 2004. When Delta first got the MD-11 they did the same thing ATL-DFW-LAX and return for several months. LAX Photographers, don't plan on the 777 being on this route for very long! As far as the 777 flying ATL-MCO-ATL, this was primarily to utilize the aircraft down time to maximize revenues. DL did this with the 777 between JFK and MCO at one time as well.


Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-15 15:59:12 and read 7783 times.

PeachAir: Likely true on the training topic - but DL used the MD-11 to fly to DFW just last year.

?

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Srbmod
Posted 2003-10-15 16:12:51 and read 7731 times.

As for DL's use of a 777 on the MCO-ATL route, it is not a waste. If you've ever tried to get back to ATL out of MCO as a non-rev, you know what I'm talking about. The flights down aren't packed to the gills, but if you're trying to get back to ATL on many of the flights during the day, you're going to be stuck there until evening. Over the years, DL has used a mix of L-1011s, 767s, MD-11s, and 777s on the route, and I actually laugh at the fact that the last flight of the day to MCO is with a CRJ (which means that this flight was going out pretty empty with whatever they used to use on the last flight down there, first flight out the next day).

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Benjamin
Posted 2003-10-15 16:20:04 and read 7698 times.

Gigneil: You will never see a 764 in Europe. They don't equip them with the BusinessElite configuration

I thought I read a trip report here about someone flying a 764 from ATL to LGW or something like that.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-15 16:51:56 and read 7635 times.

All DL 764s are first class config. They must have 'spotter confusion' between a 763 and 764 - I do it all the time if I can't see the beveled wing tips or the regs (all end in MH).

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: SafetyDude
Posted 2003-10-15 18:36:47 and read 7552 times.

About ATL-MCO and the 777: DL's 764 carries more people then the 777.

P.S. Over the past summer in August, I was supposed to fly ATL-MCO on a 777, but there was an "equipment change" (I never found out what it was)...and the 777 was changed to a MD-11! (Which I have been told was apparently retired at the end of that day.)
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
-Will

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-15 19:24:06 and read 7497 times.

The MD-11 has made a number of substitutions for the 777 on the ATL-MCO route. I have not seen it much recently, but doubt it will stop doing that any time soon.

BTW> That's right the 764 is DL most populous plane the way they equip them.

It would be nice if the 777 was used LAX-JFK-CDG and back!

I think the DL 777 BizElite config is much better than the B763 BizElite - even though it is marketed as the same 'product'

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2003-10-15 19:34:59 and read 7468 times.

Same product, just wider seats on the 7th Wonder, relative to the 767

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: BN747
Posted 2003-10-15 21:34:12 and read 7398 times.

Peach,

Most certainly the DL 777s utilization is ephemeral in the LAX market. But with Delta being a carrier the size that it is...sooner or later it's going to have to commit to the big jets--anybody's big jets. Having all these varied 76s isn't gonna cut it for a global carrier of this size. AA having 42 777s, UA 59 ships (plus a respectable number of 747-400s) and Delta with a paltry 8 777-200s. Do the math...how long can they tread water? Also as 'growth persist' and it always does....DL cannot and won't be able resist -- when the time comes--to reclaim it's place in the West Coast transpacific arena. It's a forgone conclusion that it's just a matter of time before DL re-enters the LAX-AA), Japan">NRT market and who knows where else. The immenent 777 svcs to LAX will be come permenant in the not to distant future...762,763,764s just won't cut it. Somewhere in ATL company honchos are either hoping for a UA 777 firesale or some kind of deal to increase that fleet size without paying full price OR hoping for a 'jetBlue' like deal from Airbus (kinda doubt that but you never know). In the interim, the temporary DL 777 flights will do just fine. As we've seen, DL will put the 777s into AMS..and then pull them out..they seem to place and pull everywhere except ATL and LGW...LAX is just one of many markers of the spining dart board as long as they keep such a puny jumbo fleet.


BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2003-10-15 21:54:16 and read 7369 times.

AA having 42 777s, UA 59 ships (plus a respectable number of 747-400s) and Delta with a paltry 8 777-200s. Do the math...how long can they tread water?

One's drowning under bankruptcy, the other is/was past its neckline, and Delta is ...well.... treading water  Laugh out loud


As much as I'd love to see more 777s with any airline; the 767 sized aircraft are nearly perfect for DL's route structure. Obviously, the four European superhubs warrant the 777, as well as Tokyo; but other than that, DL really doesnt have a need for anything more than what they're already working with.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2003-10-15 21:57:38 and read 7358 times.

BN747,

DL doesn't need all the 777's that AA and UA do. None of DL's South American routes can fill a 777 and most of the European routes could only fill a 777 for a few months in the summer. But then, what does DL do with the 777 during the rest of the year?

There will be no big return of DL to Asia either (unless UA completely fails which I don't think will happen)....that's what KE and NW are for. It's no forgone conclusion that DL will return to LAX-AA), Japan">NRT....it's a forgone fact that DL will NOT re-enter LAX-AA), Japan">NRT. DL will not return to the LAX-AA), Japan">NRT route as they gave up the route authority to fly this route.

Yes, DL does need more 777's....probably about ten more to cover the major European markets (LGW,FRA,FCO,AMS,CDG). Those planes will come if/when DL has the financial wherewithal.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: DeltaRules
Posted 2003-10-15 22:16:14 and read 7312 times.

There are more 777s coming.

Delta.com says that they have 5 on order, which, I saw on another site, will be delivered around 2005-2006...orders that weren't cancelled like the 738s apparently going to WestJet. They have 30 total in some form of options which could come to the fleet as well.

ConcordeBoy- Good point on the "treading water"!
DeltaRules

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Goose
Posted 2003-10-16 00:03:00 and read 7212 times.

738s going to WS? Are you talking about the two 738s that were leased to WS in 2002?

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Keesje
Posted 2003-10-16 00:49:00 and read 7164 times.

Why is Delta buying so few 777´s ?

Are they satisfied with the type ?

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2003-10-16 00:52:51 and read 7153 times.

Keesje,

Delta originally ordered thirteen 777s (eight of which they currently have in service) and planned to order more.... but unrest with DALPA over 777 pay and rest facilities, followed by the market downturn of 2001; quickly put an end to those plans

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: TokyoNarita
Posted 2003-10-16 01:05:10 and read 7126 times.

****************************************************************
DL cannot and won't be able resist -- when the time comes--to reclaim it's place in the West Coast transpacific arena. It's a forgone conclusion that it's just a matter of time before DL re-enters the LAX-AA), Japan">AA), Japan">NRT market and who knows where else. The immenent 777 svcs to LAX will be come permenant in the not to distant future.
****************************************************************

If I understand this correctly, I dont think DL still has those slots left in AA), Japan">NRT to just throw in additional flights like you would say. I have heard in the past they had to surrender to FedEX. I think it was so called "Use it or Lose it" policy in AA), Japan">NRT. The negotiations could take years unless landing that DL 777 (which others airlines 777s do) on that short second runway is allowed and if that could squeeze another DL flight in.

LAX-AA), Japan">NRT is very tough market, in addition to UA and NW, AA will serve this route soon and there are multiple Asian carriers that offer cheap fares and very attractive services.

TokyoNarita.



[Edited 2003-10-16 01:27:17]

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: BN747
Posted 2003-10-16 02:30:53 and read 7057 times.

FlyPNS1 wrote:
There will be no big return of DL to Asia either (unless UA completely fails which I don't think will happen)....that's what KE and NW are for. It's no forgone conclusion that DL will return to LAX-AA), Japan">AA), Japan">NRT....it's a forgone fact that DL will NOT re-enter LAX-AA), Japan">AA), Japan">NRT. DL will not return to the LAX-AA), Japan">AA), Japan">NRT route as they gave up the route authority to fly this route. "

Wrong my friend. and here's why. If anyone knows anything about 'the marketplace' in gerneral and this marketplace particular, Asia is the most voilatile. Growth of every size, shape and form of commerce is in one place..'Asia' and China in particular. It is the future. In addition to that, Japan at the moment is 'US' of Asia. It is the #1 desired locale for any carrier even looking in that direction. In the not too distant future, China will also shine and share that spotlight. That being said...AA is not running as far as having an Asian presence as UAL and NWA are. Neither is DAL. Given DAL's size, they know all too well that this is a part of the globe that they have to return to in big way 'Sooner or Later'. As feeble as their commitment to the 777 is, so is their current commitment to Asia....anemic! A shell of it's former self. As great as the 767s are, you can't '767 the globe', why do you think the A380 is being built? And mostly Pacfic/asian carriers are 1st in line for it. If Delta is to remain one of the big 3....like it or not, they're coming back and not with a 767 of any shape or size.

After reading the 4th Qtr P&L forecast, I'm sure it won't be this year and maybe not next...but you can bet your bottom dollar they haven't written off asia and ceratinly aren't gonna place their hopes on 'Skyteam' to deliver the goods.

'DL doesn't need all the 777's that AA and UA do. None of DL's South American routes can fill a 777 and most of the European routes could only fill a 777 for a few months in the summer. But then, what does DL do with the 777 during the rest of the year? '

They don't? Why not? They're flying to same cities in South America as AA and UAL. That says to me they are competing with these carriers for the same pax. Just routing them via ATL as opposed to MIA, DFW and IAD. That being the case...from the passenger perspective of such long hauls....bigger is always viewed as better. As for the rest of the year, instead of a 767 almost every hour to LAX, a 777 here and there would trim those frequencies. Also if their competitors from ATL to LHR, CDG,FRA,ZRH and other places can fill aircraft bigger than a 767...isn't only fair to suggest that the carrier based at ATL (esp. with all their regional feeds) can do the same??? If not much better? If they can't match competitors with comparable equipment on their own turf ...it's just a matter of time before that turf is seized by someone else...



BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Joleb
Posted 2003-10-16 03:24:42 and read 6949 times.

very good choice Delta! as long as you keep
ATL-CDG on 777 as well thats very fine with me

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2003-10-16 14:54:16 and read 6831 times.

BN747,

I'm not doubting that there is growth potential in Asia. However, DL is not in any position to take advantage of it and they never will be. Yes, Japan is a big market, but DL has no route authorities to serve it....so how do you propose they add flights? I don't expect that Japan is going to hand out tons of new route authorities to American carriers.

DL has never had any success in Asia except for ATL-NRT. All of DL's other Asian routes have failed miserably. Even when times were good (late 90's), DL couldn't make money in Asia. There's no point in DL buying 777's to fly to Asia if they can't make money in Asia.

I can pretty much guarantee you that DL has written off Asia (barring the collapse of UA which is unlikely). DL has no major West Coast presence to feed Asia, DL doesn't have the route authorities and 5th freedom rights like UA/NW and most of DL's hub's are too weak to support Asian service (SLC,CVG,DFW).

So what if BA fly's a 777 from LGW to ATL? Instead of offering just one flight with a big plane, DL can offer multiple (3-4) daily flights on that same route. Passengers may like bigger planes, but they like having convenient and frequent flights even more.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: 767Lover
Posted 2003-10-16 15:46:55 and read 6782 times.

Re: Delta's viability in Asia:

Given the terrific service-oriented reputation of Asian carriers -- Singapore Air and Malaysian in particular -- and the growing practice of airline partners/shared FF programs, it seems that most pax (American and Asian alike) would probably opt to fly with one of the Asian carriers. I know I would. Sorry Delta.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: BN747
Posted 2003-10-17 00:15:34 and read 6699 times.

767Lover...I whole heartedly agree with you..I'd take any any asian carrier to Asia over any of the US carriers. Although the US carrier's suck domestically they are a smidge better on international routes...but when measured up against the Asian carriers on those same international routes...well they come up way to short...it's like they avoid 'customer service' like it's a plague or something. Asian and most European majors understand the sole priority is make sure Joe Pax comes back again, again and again no matter the cost! The US carriers (and I am an american) appear to adopt a mantra of 'big deal...there's more where they came from'..and it shows. The US carriers try....but they can try a hell of a lot harder.

As for FlyPNS1's comments about Delta's miserable failures in Asia. FlyPNS1, carrier management is (or at least should be) always aware of past failures. However as I said earlier in a violatile markplace, things change. Example...just 3-5 years ago had you said 'Southwest will soon be flying transcons -- coast to coast -- many here would have said you are nuts'. But look at what we have today. WN going coast to coast. that same 3-5 years ago DL was going into a spiral in it's 'Asian Invasion' attempt. So what has changed?

Asia's expected growth at that time did not completely materialize...the equipment DL had was not best suited for the task (see AA and their MD11s), and PDX...what the hell were they thinking? They already had a hub in SLC...that probably would have had better chance tha PDX as bizarre as that sounds. They saw LAX as stiff competition but it was worth giving it a shot on the LAX .

Today, Asia's economic growth is steaming rolling as compared to then - DL has shed itself of costly 732s, 727s, many DC-9s, L-1011s. And now with a more efficient 777...they are gonna closely what how the AA), Japan">NRT-ATL 777 run performs. If it goes better than the MD11...and it will. It won't be long before they double up on the market. And that's where the seeds are planted for further ventures. Like I said, DAL is one of the big 3...in todays global economy, Asia can't be ignored.. If it could DL would not even bother with sticking with AA), Japan">NRT. If you know anything about 'business' then you know, when you're one of a Top 3 in anything...you are constantly watching what the other Top 2 are doing...and you are diligently watching for carpe diem opening. If they ignore or write it off, as you suggest, the future will reveal them as fools trying to play catch up when opportunites abound has been sitting in their faces while they 'ignored' them.
Handing out 'slots' in/out of AA), Japan">NRT??? Umm ...negotations between the US/Japan/Asia are an ongoing and never ending scenario. And you'd better believe DAL has a front seat or a lobbyist present at every single one of these events.


BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2003-10-17 02:01:01 and read 6628 times.

Gigneil: You will never see a 764 in Europe. They don't equip them with the BusinessElite configuration.

I'm not suggesting you will... but if DL does decide to grow to Europe and not add more 777s, converting 764s (which are prewired for PTVs in coach) to a BizElite configuration is hardly impossible.

DL doesn't need Asia... they have NW.

N

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2003-10-17 03:13:57 and read 6585 times.

and PDX...what the hell were they thinking? They already had a hub in SLC...that probably would have had better chance tha PDX as bizarre as that sounds.

Probably because it isnt true.  Big grin

While PDX's Asian demand may not be on par with LAX, SFO, SEA, etc; it certainly exsists. Same cannot be said for SLC


DL has shed itself of costly 732s

No they havent. 73Ss are being retrofitted into 2 classes and based at CVG

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: TokyoNarita
Posted 2003-10-17 04:06:44 and read 6528 times.

*****************************************************************
And PDX...what the hell were they thinking? They already had a hub in SLC...that probably would have had better chance tha PDX as bizarre as that sounds.
*****************************************************************

This is probably a technical issue. SLC field elevation is at 4200 ft and the summer temperature in the summer in SLC could easily reach 90 plus.

I don't have the data to back this up but based on my career knowledge of simple jet engine performance in relation to outside temperature and air density, it would result in a severe payload on a daily basis. MD-11 or B777 will not take on the fuel and the payload that it needs to carry (to be profitable) out of SLC to NRT or any Asian cities. The flight would be lucky to get off the ground.

I wouldn't say PDX was a bad location to have a mini transpacific hub for DL. Remember, it was not just about bringing passengers from Narita. The passengers from Nagoya, Fukuoka, Seoul could make one-stop convenient connection to west coast cities such as LAX, LAS, SFO, SEA, YVR. For the cities which I just mentioned, SLC would be east, they would have had to backtrack west to get there. That would be a huge disadvantage in U.S.- Asia market where competition is very tough. Not everybody would go for it.

For the most part, I have come to agree with BN747. I would bet my money DL or any other major U.S. career for that matter is looking hard how to expand their business further in Asia constantly. No doubt about that because we just don't know what is going to happen in the next two years or so and yes Asian careers do provide excellent services (with a few exceptions).

Nothing has been written off. With the current state of the industry and environment, the codeshare agreement between NW/CO/DL is best solution to put DL's name back out there in Asia by sharing FF program passengers. Nothing is erratic is going to happen soon. If the demand calls for it, if there are a fleet that can handle it and if they are authorized, they would return again in Asia. I just think Los Angeles-Tokyo is a long shot by DL especially when DL has become very week in the west in the past two years and the good chunk of the passenger would be leisure and the competition really sucks. It would be tough to fill 50 bizelite seats.

I don't understand why everybody focus on Narita only. There are a few other Asian cities where it warrants a U.S. mainland service with less competition with good business demand where DL or any U.S. carrier could successfully serve, (when the time is right!!) and if authorization was granted.

I personally think China is where the money is at right now or in the near future, definitely more than Japan. Just my dumb guesses but flights from JFK to Beijing, Shanghai or ATL to Seoul, Korea would come to mind.

TokyoNarita.


[Edited 2003-10-17 04:11:22]

[Edited 2003-10-17 04:21:10]

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: BN747
Posted 2003-10-17 06:30:33 and read 6438 times.

ConcordeBoy wrote:
'While PDX's Asian demand may not be on par with LAX, SFO, SEA, etc; it certainly exsists. Same cannot be said for SLC'

Maybe.....and maybe not, but the PDX angle was not O&D based. It was an attempt to open a new west coast hub, whereas in SLC...a hub was alreadly established. Perhaps as TokyoNarita mentioned, the 4000ft altitude at SLC was a factor. And given at the time it was all MD11's, but as I mentioned...AA wasn't at all pleased with it's MD11s leaving from near sea level SJC...and they saw the 777 as a better fit. So today a 777 out of the SLC hub or mini hub (which is already in place) will do what the MD11 couldn't.

'No they havent. 73Ss are being retrofitted into 2 classes and based at CVG'
Great! What about the other 3 aircraft i mentioned? The gas guzzling 727s,DC-9s and L-1011s?

Gigneil wrote:
'DL doesn't need Asia... they have NW.'

Ha! That's all the reason more to establish your own routes. One so-so US carrier relying on another so-so US carrier, hmmm I can't think of a better way to risk what little reputation one might have in such a highly prized market.


TokyoNarita, the reason so many carriers focus on getting into Narita is because the majority US companies have their 'Asian-Divisional' Headquarters there. That = a good deal of J (biz) class seats to off set the cheap Y seats.

BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-17 16:21:20 and read 6368 times.

ConcordeBoy says: No they havent. 73Ss are being retrofitted into 2 classes and based at CVG

I have had heard that - probably here, and probably from ConcordeBoy, but DL has 65 departures from ATL on a 732 and 33 departures from CVG on the 732 on an approximate daily basis. So, I don't think its fair to say that the DL 732 is based in CVG. If anything is based in CVG it Comair. ATL is too close for maintenance, and the TOC is right there as well, only 373 miles.  Smile

But yes, the 732s will be around for a while. I really like them.

But, back to point, if DL decided the market would be able to fill a B777 from PDX-ATL - they would fly it, no question. Reinstating their old route, reclaiming the Pacific gateway they had. If the market would support it

Further, on the 777 ATL-LAX, that's nice, but DL does too many things in favor of the residents or connection pax of ATL. Meaning - CVG never gets the cool stuff like that. Sure they will get the occasional B763 with BusinessElite to LAX or JFK, but to have a 777 for domestic flights would sure be good. Okay, again my own rule, if they had that many passengers in CVG - they would put the appropriate aircraft there.

What I can't understand about DL - they have 12 wide-body flights today from ATL-MCO. That is ~~~ approximately ~~~ 3000 seats - maybe a little under. That is amazing, I think, but look at CVG-MCO (same airline) and it is 3 M80, 1 757, 2 CRJ. That is about 563 seats between the two markets. I can't see how the same airline does it like that. But, its the jumbo hub in ATL and the way their route network flows South (via ATL) I guess - as well as O&D. It is even more lop-sided to compare ATL-FLL and CVG-FLL.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: BN747
Posted 2003-10-17 21:22:47 and read 6276 times.

B4real,

Actually DL has had (and still might) the 777 in CVG just this year..it was doing a sked Euro run. I was floored when I saw it...but CVG is DL turf, a better hub than PDX ever was..and far more active than SLC or better rounded anyway. And if they are to stay put in CVG (esp. Euro wise) and continued growth there ultimately additional 777s are gonna be needed balance out the fleet.


BN747

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: N757KW
Posted 2003-10-17 23:38:32 and read 6185 times.

For DL to operate trans Pacific they better do some major revamping to their aircraft. The Asian carriers alone would eat DL up in service and various class offerings.

Also, don't forget that DL codeshares on several KE flights to and from Asia. Not a perfect system, but it can be better than nothing.

Also, KE already operates Seoul-Atlanta nonstop using B777-200 equipment in the winter and B747-400 equipment in the summer.

My humble opinion is make money at what you are good at. If you make money flying to Asia, fly to Asia. If you make money flying B767s then fly them. But, as I can see, DL is not making money.

Topic: RE: Delta Adding 777 To ATL-LAX
Username: B4real
Posted 2003-10-18 02:46:33 and read 6118 times.

BN747 It truly was a treat to see the DL B777 running the CVG-CDG and CVG-FRA routes. I agree.

They shuffle them around a lot, but it is nice to see. Last summer when DL had the seasonal service to Rome, there was a 777 overnighted @ CVG near the maintenance area every night I think. That was super-cool. A B777 in service to CDG, MD-11 to LGW and FCO, 763 to FRA and more 76x to domestic destinations.

 Smile


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/