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Topic: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Fritzi
Posted 2004-01-08 17:54:11 and read 7860 times.

I just found out that a friend of mine that was travelling VIE-MUC-ARN, was onboard the F70 belly landing in MUC.

Here is what he has told me so far:

-The engines became choppy at about 14,000 ft and it started to smell like smoke in the cabin.
-The nose gear was the only one extended.
-The engines ran at a very low speed.
-10 seconds before they landed on the belly, one of the pilots yelled "Mayday Mayday" over the PA.
-The engines were shut off right before the impact with the ground.
-The aircraft stopped very quickly, and there was a great amount of force as the plane skidded to a stop
-After touchdown, all the pax thought they had landed next to the RWY.
-Then people started screaming and crying when they found out what had happened.
-The pax were then told that there was no risk for a fire, which meant that they could stay onboard till rescue personell arrived.


Thats the info that I have so far from him, Im going to talk to him later today again.

Regards
Fritzi

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2004-01-08 18:50:27 and read 7738 times.

Is there any information about what is going to happen to the plane?
Did any of people who went there have a good look at the engine intakes and tail pipes?

Jan

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Fritzi
Posted 2004-01-08 18:55:32 and read 7692 times.

Im guessing that it will be repaired. The only visble damage is on the flaps and left side of the fuselage.
The MLGs weren´t extended, so then the spar should be ok.


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Photo © Mario Aurich

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Suspen
Posted 2004-01-08 21:58:52 and read 7482 times.

-10 seconds before they landed on the belly, one of the pilots yelled "Mayday Mayday" over the PA.

Why would he do that?  Confused

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2004-01-08 22:39:53 and read 7411 times.

-The pax were then told that there was no risk for a fire, which meant that they could stay onboard till rescue personell arrived.

And why would they say THAT?! Skidded to a stop...on the wings...no telling what kind of damage to the wings there was... Confused

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Nudelhirsch
Posted 2004-01-08 22:46:35 and read 7341 times.

Sounds like:
10 seconds before ground contact "Mayday-Announcement"...pretty late...
after that engine shutoff...which takes always one or two minutes after a planes taxied to it's gate...with 8 secs left...I don't know...

With all due respect, and if he were a pax, he probably had a different feeling for time...I cannot imagine a pax watching his wrist clock and stop watch and take precision time data...

I don't wanna say that I would not believe him or so, not at all, just the timeline is weird...maybe even takes out the dramatic feeling of the post...

I am glad, they all came down alive! Good to see these things happen as well, which makes me feel more each time, that absolutely pros are sitting in the FD! Congrats to the crew!

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Fritzi
Posted 2004-01-08 22:57:57 and read 7280 times.

Im not saying that everything he said was correct, this is just what he told me.

I doubt that anyone would be looking their watch while being in a airplane that was crashing. Would you?


And yes, he was on that flight, would you like to see a copy of the boarding pass. He was on the flight together with his sister. They were the only two that continued on with the rest of their journey by train to Sweden.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Nudelhirsch
Posted 2004-01-08 23:05:19 and read 7239 times.

Fritzi, I never doubted all that! I was more referring to Suspen, who asked about the mayday in general, sorry, I didn't mean to doubt You, total apologize!

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Merkuree
Posted 2004-01-08 23:18:59 and read 7188 times.

why would the crew not evacuate all PAX immediately?
and why would they say that there was no risk of fire to the passengers?


I wonder if this is a case of fuel starvation. Not much chance of fire when you run out of fuel.....

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Nudelhirsch
Posted 2004-01-08 23:56:32 and read 7101 times.

actually, merkuree, it's not the fuel which might catch fire, it's the air inside of the tanks, combined with oxygene, like burning car fuel only succeeds, when already being gas within the air...

but still, Your question is not answered with that, so...I'm actually interested too...

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: EGGD
Posted 2004-01-09 00:02:12 and read 7079 times.

If the engines are shut down, the cabin is still intact and there is no fuel leak, it would make sense to keep the passengers in the aircraft. After all, it looks like it was mighty cold out there and I don't think anyone was really prepared to be out in below freezing weather for significant amounts of time!!! Big grin

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2004-01-09 00:14:15 and read 7030 times.

How exactly do they plan on getting it from that field to a repair facility? Especially in one peice. It is still a fair distance from MUC, and the ground is pretty soft where it came down. I don't think roads would be feasable unless they remove the tailplane and wings. ASN lists it as a writeoff, usually they don't jump the gun on these things.

T.J.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Khushdesi
Posted 2004-01-09 00:21:47 and read 6998 times.

What's ASN?

Just wondering...thanks.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2004-01-09 00:24:07 and read 6986 times.

http://aviation-safety.net/index.shtml

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Nudelhirsch
Posted 2004-01-09 00:26:04 and read 6973 times.

Austrian Airlines...

but I read this in a former thread:

Dear Nudelhirsch, I can't believe that this plane will be repaired.

With the landing gear torn off the wing main spar will be severely damaged. Flaps and their associated mechanisms are of course also totally destroyed. It means that the wing will have to be replaced.

The fuselage: You don't just straighten it as a bent car. It is a pressurised cabin. One crack can be fatal. Fuselage structure is a write off.

But the engines - the units which failed - they may be reused in case they haven't suffered severe FODs.

A lot of other expensive items - hydraylics, electrical and electronic units - may find a place on the Austrian spare parts shelves.

But that plane made its last landing. They were very lucky that it didn't catch fire.


posted in http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1332782/

So this sounds pretty accurate and normal...we'll see what happens...

[Edited 2004-01-09 00:27:05]

[Edited 2004-01-09 00:29:12]

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Esajh
Posted 2004-01-09 00:35:13 and read 6929 times.

The last thing a Captain wants to do is dump 1 or 200 passengers on the ramp. That decision is a very difficult one and one of the reasons a Captain gets paid to make such decisions.

Sure if the plane is on fire, it is an easy decision. But in this case, where the plane was intact the decision is much different. He knew what had happened and what shape his aircraft was in and made the right decision. I say the right decision because I have the luxury of hindsight.

When you ask why not do it anyway? When you dump people on the ramp someone is GUARANTEED to get injured or die. That is right, you WILL hurt some one, probably seriously and death has occurred. Remember folks you are pushing dozens or a few hundred people through some small exits. They are over two stories in the air (in most cases) and that slid is extremely steep. You will impact the ramp at a high rate of speed and if all you get are a few broken and sprained ankles, with some footprint bruises in your back you are extremely lucky. People have fallen off the sides of those ramps, as well as crushed their heads on the ground by either falling off or going down headfirst. Remember that you are being pushed by the FAs not to mention the potential panic in the cabin.

Now most people don’t listen to instructions and panic is a definite possibility when you issue an evacuation order. Some understand the nearest exit is behind them but the guy behind them runs forward to get out the exit he came in. Confusion, congestion and PANIC are real possibilities – increasing the likelihood of serious injury.

Now when you said the pilot yelled “Mayday” that is a possibility. This was a controlled incident and as such the pilot had probably briefed his flight attendants about a brace signal. He may have told the passengers directly, (which would mean your friend did not listen to the instructions.) ONLY the cockpit crew would know when they were a few seconds from impact and they want to relay that to the passengers so they can brace for impact. The pilots will not have time to give the people a dissertation and as a result they usually use ONE recognizable word that people can easily remember, repeated several times to get the folks attention. That way you can do what you are supposed to do to save your own life.

So the crew did everything any pilot would do and as it turned out they were right. I am sure they might be up for various airmen awards.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Spacepope
Posted 2004-01-09 00:39:13 and read 6907 times.

Noodledeer:

I would doubt the nosegear ripping off would damage the spar. If we look back on past F-100 accidents involving landing with fewer than 2 main gears extended (of which there are many, the F-100 had a high occurence of maingear collapses/losses compared to other types), most have been repaired. The only writeoffs seem to be the AA F-100 at DFW a few years ago, and the TAM F-100 that landed in the cow pasture. To be fair though, I can't think of one that was repaired after landing on a non-paved surface.

T.J.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2004-01-09 01:03:06 and read 6838 times.

Esajh,

I have to take issue with your post.

Sure if the plane is on fire, it is an easy decision. But in this case, where the plane was intact the decision is much different. He knew what had happened and what shape his aircraft was in and made the right decision. I say the right decision because I have the luxury of hindsight.

How on earth can the flight crew be absolutely certain of the condition of the airplane, which undoubtedly suffered damage in a slide over unknown and unfamiliar terrain, while sitting in the flight deck? Sure I could see your point if say I had just executed an RTO due to some blown tires or skidded off the runway in a rainstorm, but these circumstances were quite different.

When you ask why not do it anyway? When you dump people on the ramp someone is GUARANTEED to get injured or die. That is right, you WILL hurt some one, probably seriously and death has occurred. Remember folks you are pushing dozens or a few hundred people through some small exits. They are over two stories in the air (in most cases) and that slid is extremely steep. You will impact the ramp at a high rate of speed and if all you get are a few broken and sprained ankles, with some footprint bruises in your back you are extremely lucky. People have fallen off the sides of those ramps, as well as crushed their heads on the ground by either falling off or going down headfirst. Remember that you are being pushed by the FAs not to mention the potential panic in the cabin.

Several issues here:

Yes, evacuation injuries are common for all the reasons you mentioned. However, "serious" injuries may only include broken bones; if you look at FAA accident reports you will see that it is very hard to recall an instance when someone died evacuating a 100% intact aircraft...in fact I don't think you'll find one.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Leezyjet
Posted 2004-01-09 01:20:58 and read 6814 times.

"With the landing gear torn off the wing main spar will be severely damaged"

The landing gear wasn't torn off because it was retracted at the time so I doubt that there will be serious damage to the wing spar.

From the pictures I've seen it looks repairable to me - and I say again from the pictures I've seen. The damage looks minimal from the photos and I wouldn't have thought there would have been much structural damage but thats purely speculation.

The biggest problem will be getting it the 1.5k to the airport or however far it is.

There have been other a/c with similar looking damage that have been repaired but it all depends on the a/c's value against the cost of the repairs though.

"10 seconds before ground contact "Mayday-Announcement"...pretty late..."

How early would you expect it then if they didn't think they had a problem ??.
Lets not forget that the a/c was on final approch into MUC so they were flying low and slowly and decending so they probably didn't realise they were in trouble until it was too late - a bit like the BD 737 that crashed onto the M1. They too thought they would make the airfield until they tried to give the engine a bit of power and it failed causing them to crash - too late to do anything about it. I imagine that the pilot hit the wrong switch in the panic in the final few seconds and made the "mayday" call into the cabin by mistake or at the same time as the radio to give the people in the cabin a few seconds to do something. The capt of the BD 737 shouted "brace brace" into the cabin about 3 seconds before the first impact with the ground which was even later.


"after that engine shutoff...which takes always one or two minutes after a planes taxied to it's gate...with 8 secs left...I don't know..."

It does not take 1-2 minutes for an a/c engine to shut down (they sometimes have to run the engines for a couple of minutes before they shut them down if it is only a short taxi from the runway). It takes about 30 seconds max for the engine to wind down, but if you are going to crash and you know you have no options then it is usual when there is time to shut the engines off before impact to stop the fuel flow that could lead to a fire.

Just glad they all got out with no deaths or injuries.

 Smile


Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: N766UA
Posted 2004-01-09 01:29:28 and read 6776 times.

Suspen said:Why would he do that?

In his haste he keyed the mic wrong and broadcast over the PA rather than the frequency. Happens all the time, even under normal circumstances.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Rick767
Posted 2004-01-09 01:53:16 and read 6732 times.

Have only glanced through this topic; some good points made so far.

It is important to remember that any person involved in an emergency or situation like this will give a mix of correct and incorrect information, the tendency to exaggerate to make the story sound better (this is not intentional, it is human nature) and will often have conflicting and sometimes completely different recollections to other witnesses.

This is normal and there is a scientific term to describe this misinformation.

With that in mind, my own view of the comments is:

"10 seconds before they landed on the belly, one of the pilots yelled "Mayday Mayday" over the PA."

This seems unlikely, unless the pilot said "Brace, Brace". Mis-keying the mike between ATC and the PA is a possibility, but no way would it come that late. Again this may be a recollection / perception issue with the witness (time and size in particular are difficult factors to recollect accurately).

Out of interest the "Brace, Brace" call should come at around 200ft AGL, both in my previous and current airline on different types.

"The pax were then told that there was no risk for a fire, which meant that they could stay onboard till rescue personell arrived."

That seems an absolutely ludicrous decision. I completely agree that the crew could have had no idea that the fire risk was nil. With potential wing damage this seems a particularly irresponsible decision. A fire could have occurred, or may even have been in progress when this announcement was made, for all the flightdeck crew knew.

The procedures in airlines I have flown for and presently fly for have always been emergency landing = evacuation. For landing in a field on your belly, there shouldn't be a second thought! So it's cold outside... so a few passengers might get injured... so what. Better than burning to death from a sudden explosion.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: WhyNotTu204
Posted 2004-01-09 02:06:53 and read 6704 times.

All great points. Interestingly enough I was in Munich on the 5th of January, departing back for the States on the 6th. Did not see anything in the local news about the landing and only found out about it in the evening of the 5th when saw the first pictures on airliners.net (kudos to this web site and it's great users).

Another point to be made that I have not seen made here, is quite simlply this: a great piloting job by the crew. Severely underpowered aircraft, descending through 12000 feet, not making the runway, hitting the ground with a belly landing. Let's not overlook these points before we go critisizing the pilots for yelling Mayday 2 minutes too late...

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Esajh
Posted 2004-01-09 02:10:02 and read 6692 times.

JBirdAV8r

I disagree; you would no more know what condition you were in with an RTO than this case. Are your breaks on fire? Did rubber punch a hole throughout the wing and rupture the fuel etc.? No you have probably less knowledge on an RTO.

In this case the aircraft was flying, it is pretty intact, and there is no sign of fuel or fire problems. Now you ask: “How on earth can the flight crew be absolutely certain.” Well you can not be absolutely certain who your parents are! You have a HIGH probability but absolutely certain – come on you are a pilot?

If you do fly and have had a long and good career, you know you make aviation decisions every day you fly. You make a decision even if you are fit enough to go to work, whether to T.O. etc. You are NEVER absolutely certain and every decision you make is based upon data. You collect as much data as possible, evaluate that data along with experience and make the best decision based upon that data. 100% certainty is luxury pilots almost never have and if you wait for it you could be dead!

“if you look at FAA accident reports you will see that it is very hard to recall an instance when someone died evacuating a 100% intact aircraft...in fact I don't think you'll find one.”

This statement I am not going to argue. A 100% intact aircraft? Is the aircraft OK and it was an unnecessary evacuation. Was it a necessary evacuation and nothing was wrong with the aircraft? Was it an accident or an inadvertent slide deployment? I can’t define your statement, but suffice it to say. Tampa evacuation, woman fell on her baby. Spinal Cord problems! Miami, door problem. FA blown out of aircraft – death.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: WhyNotTu204
Posted 2004-01-09 02:15:11 and read 6675 times.

Belly landing? That was my understanding... Can someone explain to me why all gear seem to be in the down position in the picture above?

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2004-01-09 02:32:01 and read 6633 times.

If you're referring to the photo in reply#2, it was taken after the recovery process had begun. The aircraft was raised off its belly with either airbags or cranes, and then the main gear dropped down and pinned into place. The nose gear was the only one deployed during the landing itself, and it separated from the aircraft. In the photo above, if you look close, you can see planking and other items that have been places under the nose.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2004-01-09 04:23:35 and read 6568 times.

Esajh,

Well you can not be absolutely certain who your parents are! You have a HIGH probability but absolutely certain – come on you are a pilot?

Wow, it's quite obvious you are "familiar" with the "jerk" captain stereotype they teach us about in CRM class  Wink/being sarcastic

To quote Rick767, an experienced pilot with a reputable carrier,

That seems an absolutely ludicrous decision. I completely agree that the crew could have had no idea that the fire risk was nil. With potential wing damage this seems a particularly irresponsible decision. A fire could have occurred, or may even have been in progress when this announcement was made, for all the flightdeck crew knew.

Come on, our resident, all-knowing "airline pilot"...your argument has some major holes. Your silly snip at me (come on, are you REALLY as old as you say to be making such childish comments?) doesn't hold any water. You're telling me that if your landing gear is torn off, along with God knows how many hydraulic/electric wires, and with the possibility of your wings being slashed open, leaking fuel immediately under your airframe (as to be invisible from inside the cabin)...you'd keep the passengers inside? That's insane!

So you're saying that rather than erring on the side of caution and evacuating, you'd rather take "the chance that the airplane is PROBABLY okay" and STAY ON? And YOU'RE a pilot?!

With an attitude and reasoning like that, how in the world do you even pass your sim checks?!!?! Lord help the flying public!!!

[Edited 2004-01-09 04:27:22]

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Spark
Posted 2004-01-09 06:04:45 and read 6502 times.

Arguing whether the pilot said "Mayday" too late is a little bit like saying that Joe Montana should have thrown the pass to Dwight Clark on "The Catch" lower (sorry about the Ameri-centric reference). This was a great job of piloting, and the crew should be commended for having a successful emergency with no deaths or injuries(?).

The decision of keeping the passengers on the plane till rescue crew arrived is valid, except nobody has the same information that Captain and crew had. I certainly would object to criticism from less informed people, especially after surviving a very stressful experience.

I was going to ask whether the plane could be salvaged. The plane actually looks fine in the photos, but it doesn't mean the fuselage isn't damage. I remember my car accident, and the whole underside of the car was destroyed, but it only looked like my wheels and axel was damaged from the top.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Teahan
Posted 2004-01-09 18:13:00 and read 6351 times.

@JBirdAV8r:

I would reread Rick's post (or even just the piece you quoted). He never said anything of the sort.


[Edited 2004-01-09 18:13:27]

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Rick767
Posted 2004-01-09 18:47:29 and read 6258 times.

JBirdAV8r

I'm confused, we seem to agree with each other.... perhaps my wording gave a different impression at first glance?

I don't see where my wording was childish or where any snip at you occured?

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: N844AA
Posted 2004-01-09 18:51:44 and read 6228 times.

I don't mean to speak for JBirdAV8r, but I think his comment was directed to the poster above (Esajh) who said that not evacuating was the correct course of action, and he was only quoting Rick767 as backup for his position.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2004-01-09 21:17:10 and read 6082 times.

Rick767,

Sorry! My comments were directed at Esajh....I quoted you (albeit not so clearly) to back up my point...I do agree with you!

Sorry for the confusion!

Best regards,
JBirdAV8r

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2004-01-09 21:48:47 and read 5995 times.

This story doesn't sound totally true, and im not saying that someone is purposely lieing but some parts are completely crazy. The first one is the part where the captain yelled mayday, if this is true, something is wrong with him. You should never do that and freak out the pax for no reason. The pilot knew the plane was going down and the pax should have been told at that time to brace for impact, not just start yelling mayday seconds before hitting the ground! Now for the part where he told the pax not to worry about leaving the aircraft. My ass would be getting the hell out of there no matter what it took. Nobody knows if there is a fire somewhere in the aircraft that is not visible. I would have fought whomever I had to to get out of the plane. I don't care how cold it is or if ill get scraped up sliding down, I would want to be outside where I know im safe. The rescue crews couldn't be too far away, a plane crashing is kinda a big deal and they will usually rush to the area!!!!

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Fritzi
Posted 2004-01-10 04:09:37 and read 5865 times.

UAL747DEN said:

You should never do that and freak out the pax for no reason

Are you saying that a aircraft crash is not going to freak out the passengers???


or if ill get scraped up sliding down

Why not use the stairs instead??? Its a small F70 that is lying on its belly! Its not gonna hurt if you just jump down 1 ft...


The rescue crews couldn't be too far away, a plane crashing is kinda a big deal and they will usually rush to the area!!!!

They were in a rush, but it took them to half an hour to get to the crash sight. Believe it or not, the surrounding territory of Munich is actually pretty big...


Nobody knows if there is a fire somewhere in the aircraft that is not visible

Maybe one of the pilots had done an inspection of the aircraft after impact, and he/she deemed that there was no risk of fire.


Just stating some facts and details...

/fritzi

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2004-01-10 04:44:45 and read 5822 times.

>>>The decision of keeping the passengers on the plane till rescue crew arrived is valid, except nobody has the same information that Captain and crew had.

In support of evacuating, it has to be noted that the captain doesn't have X-ray vision, and therefore can't absolutely ensure that some fuel tank damage hasn't occurred from the impact, even though it might not have manifested itself immediately in a fire.

In support of keeping them onboard, with such a light passenger load (versus a full one) the crew might have thought that they could indeed quickly initiate an evacuation in the event it was needed. If so, one presumes that some crew were outside watching out for fires until ground personnel arrived.

Personally, I think the crew made a judgment call, and it ended up turning out OK. That said, my personal choice (not second-guessing this crew, but just expressing my personal opinion) would have been to evacuate under the presumption that there was possible damage to the fuel tanks. No, the main gear -didn't- rip off and tear up the wing spars and cause an obvious tank breach,, but neither was the aircraft designed to land on its belly off-airport. That in and of itself defines an abnormal situation that calls for extra conservatism in subsequent decisionmaking.

Having "lookouts" is no guarantee that fire couldn't light off quickly and maybe preclude a complete evacuation of 35 folks. Sure, the passengers would have been cold awaiting ground personnel, but it's not as if rescuers were 100km away. It takes alot longer to freeze to death than it does to burn to death.

Just my 2 cents/Euros worth...


[Edited 2004-01-10 04:49:10]

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Airlinelover
Posted 2004-01-10 06:37:49 and read 5765 times.

Just FYI- "Mayday Mayday" may have been that airlines wording rather then Brace Brace, as diff. airlines sometimes say different things..

Chris

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2004-01-10 07:06:47 and read 5734 times.

FRITZI
From what I understand about the crash the pilot knew that they were going to have to ditch the plane long before landing. That would be a good time to inform the pax that they should be ready for impact. It is however not a good idea to start yelling "mayday" over the PA seconds before impact if you can help it.
Next I would like to point out the reason that I said that I would not mind getting scraped up on the slide is because that was the reason given for not evacuating the plane. I don't care how many scrapes and bruises I might get I would have gotten out of the plane, now in that case yes the door would be the best place to start!
Now about the pilot doing an inspection, First of all it was not mentioned that he did, second he could have missed something, and most importantly, MY ASS WOULD HAVE BEEN OUT OF THAT PLANE LONG BEFORE HE WOULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO DO A COMPLETE INSPECTION!!!!!!
That is just me and the way that I would have done it, if yall would not have well than good for you. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Merkuree
Posted 2004-01-10 21:02:52 and read 5660 times.

does anybody have additional info on the fuel load this aircraft had at 'touchdown'? Or the nature of the power failure/problems?

I understand that any rupture in the tanks could mean that any residual fuel may have seeped out, but just curious if there was an update?

thanks

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: JBirdAV8r
Posted 2004-01-10 23:49:54 and read 5568 times.

@Teahan:

Maybe you should reread MY post and see who I was talking about  Big grin

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Merkuree
Posted 2004-01-14 01:53:52 and read 5439 times.

Austrian changes ice plates after Munich jet scare
VIENNA, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Austrian Airlines (Vienna: AUAV.VI - news) is changing the Rolls-Royce-made ice protection equipment on eight of its nine Fokker 70 planes because of doubts over its safety after one such jet made an emergency landing in Munich on Monday.

Austrian said in a statement released on Friday it had decided to change the Rolls-Royce-made equipment, which protects the plane's engines from ice damage, after inspections led to complaints about safety.

The airline has said a preliminary investigation showed that the emergency landing, in which eight people were slightly injured on Monday, was probably caused by so-called "ice impact trays" breaking off.

"New ice protection equipment will be installed by the manufacturer's specialist teams in all engines in which the strength of the ice protection equipment's mounting could not be established beyond doubt," Austrian said in a statement.

"To avoid any risk, the ice protection equipment will be changed on eight aircraft."

Austrian said it had inspected all its Fokker 70 fleet with Rolls-Royce.

"These (inspections) led to complaints," it added, without giving details.

An official investigation into the Munich accident is ongoing.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: AR385
Posted 2004-01-14 08:01:32 and read 5361 times.

I am sure that the situation developed so quickly that they only thing they could do was FLY THE PLANE. No time to brief anyone. Plus, since everybody was seated and fastened for the landing, a Brace! Brace! message was a luxury the crew could not afford.

On the other hand, we have the case of the ONA DC-9 who ditched in the Caribbean. The pilot never briefed the cabin crew about the time or a signal for the ditching, as a result many passengers were standing up or with their seat belts unfastened as they were putting their life vests on. This resulted in unnecessary casualties.

I do agree with many on this post. An evacuation should have occured as soon as the aircraft came to a stop.

My two cents,

AR385

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: LMML 14/32
Posted 2004-01-14 08:39:47 and read 5327 times.

I agree with Rick 767. The decision to keep the pax on board after a belly landing is very dubious.

My book has always said in bold type that an evacuation is executed when there is either or all of the following:

a. Unusual impact noises
b. Aircraft is in unusual position
c. Sparks, smoke and fire.

In the accident in question a and b were undoubtedly present.

Secondly, the Mayday announcement. Before any planned crash landing a cabin announcement like "Brace Brace" is expected from the flight deck at around 500' AGL. I have always doubted that this will happen at that most senstitive and crucial phase of the emergency. Perhaps Rick767 can shed some light on whether he feels such a call distracts the concentration of the crew.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Backfire
Posted 2004-01-14 13:59:12 and read 5202 times.

I think some of you need to think about putting medical attention ahead of airline procedures.

If passengers have just been through an air crash, there's a fair chance that they'll be suffering a degree of shock.

Since shock victims need to be kept warm, it's hardly a responsible move to evacuate them into the middle of a snow-covered field in freezing temperatures.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: AR385
Posted 2004-01-14 20:06:56 and read 4987 times.

Backfire,

It's more irresponsible to keep them inside while a fire outside is raging (in this case it wasn't, but the crew had no way of knowing that) They would sure be warm then.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Backfire
Posted 2004-01-18 19:56:57 and read 4408 times.

It's more irresponsible to keep them inside while a fire outside is raging (in this case it wasn't but the crew had no way of knowing that)


How do you know what the crew knew? Er...you don't.

Do you really believe that they kept the passengers inside without checking that it would be safe? Don't be ridiculous.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Radarbeam
Posted 2004-01-18 20:18:17 and read 4345 times.

-----Do you really believe that they kept the passengers inside without checking that it would be safe? Don't be ridiculous-----

Can you tell me how you would ascertain from the flightdeck that your aircraft didn't suffer some kind of fuel line/tank rupture?

Radarbeam

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2004-01-18 20:28:31 and read 4302 times.

>>>Can you tell me how you would ascertain from the flightdeck that your aircraft didn't suffer some kind of fuel line/tank rupture?

They can't. Even if the flightcrew goes back in the cabin, or oustide the aircraft, they can't.

See post #33...

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Radarbeam
Posted 2004-01-18 20:32:42 and read 4269 times.

I know, I just want Backfire to realize that keeping the passengers inside the aircraft was a gamble and it could have jeopardized the safety of the PAX.



[Edited 2004-01-18 20:34:44]

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Ka
Posted 2004-01-18 20:37:21 and read 4242 times.

On TV there was an interview with another pax who reported the smell of smoke before the crashlanding. So these are at least 2 pax now (incl the one mentioned in post #0).
No evacuation when at least 2 pax smelled smoke already before the landing?? It is irresponsible to me!!

In the mentioned TV interview the pax also reported that the cabin crew was not informed about the situation.

Personally I expect the investigation to reveal that the pilots did mistakes that an emergency never needed to happen.

KA.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2004-01-18 20:54:05 and read 4201 times.

Backfire
The passengers in shock would have sure been warm if the aircraft was on fire huh! Please tell me how you would know if there was a gas leak or small fire?

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: LMML 14/32
Posted 2004-01-18 21:05:27 and read 4174 times.

.........bring out the brandy to keep the pax warmer still .........

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Fritzi
Posted 2004-01-18 22:49:30 and read 4069 times.

Ka,

About how old was the interviewed passenger? Male or female?

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: Ka
Posted 2004-01-18 23:37:47 and read 4013 times.

Fritzi,
Male, Viennese resident, about 40-45.

KA.

Topic: RE: More Info On OS F70 Belly Landing
Username: KaiGywer
Posted 2004-01-18 23:43:08 and read 3999 times.

Esajh wrote:

When you ask why not do it anyway? When you dump people on the ramp someone is GUARANTEED to get injured or die. That is right, you WILL hurt some one, probably seriously and death has occurred. Remember folks you are pushing dozens or a few hundred people through some small exits. They are over two stories in the air (in most cases) and that slid is extremely steep. You will impact the ramp at a high rate of speed and if all you get are a few broken and sprained ankles, with some footprint bruises in your back you are extremely lucky. People have fallen off the sides of those ramps, as well as crushed their heads on the ground by either falling off or going down headfirst. Remember that you are being pushed by the FAs not to mention the potential panic in the cabin.

OK, first of all, a F100 is not two stories high, from ground to antenna, even with wheels extended. Second, the slide will most likely go straight out, so you will walk on the slide. Third, the door on a F100 is an airstair, meaning the door with steps will be laying on the ground. On the other doors and overwing exits, it'd be almost like walking out on a jetway  Big grin And last, how many hundreds of people can you fit into a F100?


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