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Topic: Next Airbus...
Username: Francoflier
Posted 2004-03-08 05:05:10 and read 9163 times.

Now that the first A380 is being assembled and that the designing and testing phases of the project will be over in a few year, I was wondering what Airbus' engineers would sink their teeth into next?

What do you think the A3(5/6/7)0 is going to be like?

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Spike
Posted 2004-03-08 05:07:37 and read 9089 times.

I'd bet that they will be the first company to have a commercial space-liner.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2004-03-08 05:28:57 and read 8967 times.

Airbus has a difficult decision on where to go next in my opinion. The A340NG is a solid aircraft but in 2008 the A330 will be threatened by the 7E7 and the A320 will be 20 years old. And whatever the 737NG replacement is will probably enter service in 2012-2014.

The A330 will be on thin ice. If the 7E7 meets its targeted efficiency then it will steel more A330 orders than the A332 stole from the 767. The 7E7 offers 20% lower operating costs, greater range, greater cargo capacity, high resale value, and a short-range version tailored for 3500nm flights for 125 million per copy. With launch order discounts, it could go for 100 million. That completely shatters any case for new A330s.

This is the threat to Airbus, not any 747Adv or 737-Replacement, but the 7E7. The problem is, I doubt and A330NG could match much less surpass the 7E7. Likewise, an A320NG would have the same problem as an A330NG. Boeing was able to overhaul the 737 thoroughly, but much of what would need to be done to an A320 might be more easily done with a clean-sheet design. High percentage of composite material, low-bleed engines, and improved wings are too difficult to incorporate into an existing design that I feel NGs may no longer be viable.

Airbus will have to decide which it wants more.. a 7E7 competitor or a 737-Replacment competitor.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Roberta
Posted 2004-03-08 05:59:26 and read 8891 times.

i reckon they shall redesign the 8-abrest seating X-section with composites and replace the A310 A300 A332 A333 A342 A343 in one almighty blow. i personally doubt that the 7e7 will be 20% more efficient than an A330 which is already a bloody efficient plane but i'm sure ill be wrong. it just seems such a sudden improvement from current planes, like they've all gone down the pub and just thought of a big number. it must really piss of some airlines who bought a330's just before the 7e7 anouncement. they'll be saying to themselves

"brilliant weve just spent millions on these new planes and in three years time our rivals are going to be flying much better ones"

Also when it does come out every plane will just be feel obselete and old.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: CanadianNorth
Posted 2004-03-08 06:09:51 and read 8846 times.

Personally I think the folks over at Airbus there are gunna make a move soon, but one would imagine that they must be reasonably stumped on wether to try to rig something up to replace the 737/A320 market or wether to slap together a new hunk of flying metal to beat the 7E7, and i might add i cant say for sure but at this moment in time the 7E7 is looking very promising...


Just my 2 cents
CanadianNorth

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: L-188
Posted 2004-03-08 06:18:43 and read 8812 times.

Aren't they already up to their armpits in the A.400 military transport?

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-03-08 18:09:25 and read 8488 times.

The 120-200 seat market is significantly larger than all others.... Boeing and Airbus will no doubt square off in due time, but still will be for some time.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Greg
Posted 2004-03-08 18:15:17 and read 8424 times.

They'll take a much deserved break on project development and work in the research sector for the next replacement products.

I don't think they'll concede the 200-250 markete to the 7e7.

Not as pressing, but still important is the 319-321 replacement...but probably a good ten years away.

Getting the kinks out of the current and proposed prodution models..as well as the important lowering productions costs even further will take precedence.

Boeing and Airbus are extremely equal in terms of technology and innovation. Airbus, however, has the advantage in that it can produce an aircraft for less money---hence selling for less. I think they will concentrate on making this margin even larger.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Horus
Posted 2004-03-08 18:23:15 and read 8341 times.

Boeing is going to deliver their first 7E7 during 2008, and for a few years they will offer the most efficient and technologically advanced jet in the market, BUT then Airbus will launch a new aircraft (or a revamped A330) that will take the market by storm, and Airbus will again be the market leader. This is not a joke, I really do think this will happen.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Yak42
Posted 2004-03-08 19:29:25 and read 8217 times.

I seriously doubt the B7E7 will be anywhere near 20% more efficient it will just be another cross section to add to boeings commonality problem and may sell to existing Boeng customers. But its not going to be groundbreaking and revive Boeings fortunes. Perhaps a weak dollar will though. I think airbus will not have to spend as long or as much to revamp the A300/310 or shorten an A330 to fill the hole that the A300/310 leave. Maybe they will even do a A322 about B757-200 size.

[Edited 2004-03-08 19:32:42]

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: BoingGoingGone
Posted 2004-03-08 20:39:22 and read 7990 times.

The 7E7 will meet fuel efficiencies, and it's price point of $115M to $150M will decimate the Airbus 200-250 seat market, and render the 757/767 line useless.

Bank on it. Oil shortages are coming. Airlines will have no choice but to look to a newer more efficient aircraft.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2004-03-08 21:57:49 and read 7827 times.

I agree with BoeingGoingGone... the 7e7 will meet performance goals of 20%. If you think this is impossible you're being nieve. The A330 could possibly use 7E7 engines but will have none of the ground breaking features of the 7E7.

BUT then Airbus will launch a new aircraft (or a revamped A330) that will take the market by storm

The genius of the A330/340 concept is that it is essentially the same aircraft with different engines. This means both aircraft share the same assembly line, wings, fuselage, systems, ext. But it backfires in that any radical change to either the A330 or A340, beyond the A340NG, destroys commonality.

Airbus might be better of replacing the A330 and A340 with a single model (preferably a twin). This puts pressure on the 777, about 15 years old in 2010. Then make sure the A320 replacement covers the gap left to the 7E7-SR.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Yak42
Posted 2004-03-08 22:04:54 and read 7753 times.

Where on earth is boeing going to find these mysterious efficiencies. If there was any way Airbus could have gleaned these efficiencies with current technology, it would have. The A330 is one tight ship and I would be amazed if Boeing made any sigificant improvement in efficiency.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: N6376m
Posted 2004-03-08 22:10:22 and read 7692 times.

Boeing's pretty much made their bed with the 20%. It's the line in the sand. If they fail to meet it, the program will be considered a failure.

If I were AB, I'd take the 7e7 very seriously.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: 3204ever
Posted 2004-03-08 22:14:58 and read 7640 times.


Simply to big....I am an Airbus engineer,and I think is to big..

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2004-03-08 22:16:07 and read 7621 times.

7E7 offers 20% lower operating costs

20% less than a 767.

The numbers for the 330 differ, and nobody really knows what they are.

N

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: AA787
Posted 2004-03-08 22:24:00 and read 7552 times.

I think Airbus should look at a 32X series replacement first. They have been doing very well in this market and it is important to keep their customers satisfied and not let Boeing steal customers back.

Boeing should replace the 737 line with an airplane very similar to the 7E7. Then or maybe at the same time, depending on the financial situation, develop a 747 Advanced.

AA787

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Bluethunder
Posted 2004-03-08 22:29:53 and read 7503 times.

My prediction is:

1. They will produce a competitor for the 7E7

OR

2. Produce a competitor for the 747-500/advance

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: L.1011
Posted 2004-03-08 22:31:55 and read 7495 times.

Here are my evaluations of the current and future Airbus and Boeing lines.

Short-Range 100-seater:
717-200 vs. Nothing

You can't win with nothing, this is a Boeing.

Long-Range 100-seater:
737-600 vs. A318-100

From what I've heard the 736 is a better plane, though both are pretty bad. Remember the 736 is really based on the inital legnth of the plane, the A318 is shrunk from a 150-seater.

130-seater:
737-700 vs. A319-100:
There's no definite winner here. Airbus has the lead in a wider cabin, and a slightly longer range, while Boeing has a newer cabin, and newer technology, newer engines as well.

150-seater:
737-800 vs. A320-200:
With winglets, Boeing has the advantage. Without, its a tossup with the same comments as above.

170-seater:
737-900 vs. A321-200:
Airbus has the lead here for now, the 737NG just doesn't work with the simple stretch model that works for the 757, 767, and 777. However, the 739X would have the edge, so we'll see.

200-seater:
767-200ER vs. A310-300:
It's a tough descision. Boeing has more range and better performance, and it's better from a pax perspective, but Airbus leads in cargo capacity.

225-seater:
767-300ER vs. Nothing:
Again, obviously Boeing.

250-seater:
767-400ER vs. A330-200:
Definitely Airbus, with advantages in range and cargo capacity. Cockpit commonality comes with both, A330/A340 and 764/777. Also the 764 is a better plane from a passenger perspective, but Airbus wins. However the 7E7 will destroy here. There will be no competition from Airbus AT ALL.

300-seater Medium Range:
777-200A vs. A330-300:
Boeing. The 777 has advanatges in range, cargo capacity, fuel burn, and technological advancement. The 7E7 Stretch that will undoubtably take over this sector will have even bigger leads.

300-seater Long Range:
777-200ER vs. A340-300 Enhanced:
Boeing. More range, more cargo capacity, more fuel efficiant, more technologically advanced, a better climber  Big grin

300-seater Ultra Long Range:
777-200LR vs. A340-500:
Boeing. (when it arrives) The Boeing will have a huge range advantage, as well as more cargo, more efficiency, better technology.

375-seater Short Range:
777-300A vs. Nothing:
Obviously Boeing.

375-seater Long Range:
777-300ER vs. A340-600:
Judging by the 777's great advantage over the 340 in every category, little doubt is left as to the winner.

425-seater:
747-400ER vs. A380-100
The A381 will be far too heavy and it is doubtful that any orders will result at all. The 747 Advanced will further increase Boeing's dominance.

500-seater:
Nothing vs. A380-800:
Obviously Airbus.

Currently, they are tied in some sectors, Boeing trailing in a few important ones, and leading a few less important ones. Yes, Boeing is the underdog right now, but this phoenix will rise on the wings of the 7E7. Airbus also has an issue when the next 737 comes out, and with the 747, which will continue to occupy the significant gap between the A346 and A388.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: ND
Posted 2004-03-08 22:41:35 and read 7445 times.

As of lately, it appears (I could be wrong, of course), that the A340 orders have been surpassing 777 orders. I think the smart move would be for Airbus to continue to improve the 777-Competitor line. This way, they will continue to take away a really big market from Boeing. Right now, Boeing is making an aircraft between the 767-777, but with Airbus competing directly with the 777 (with improved versions of their A340 aircraft), it will take years for Boeing to be able to have a chance at regaining the ground they lost.

However, this is all considering that the 772-LR and the 773-ER are failures, which I personally highly doubt... both are very advanced aircraft that should prove a worthy adversary for Airbus.

ND
Hated By Many
Confonted By None

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: AA787
Posted 2004-03-08 22:50:54 and read 7370 times.

OK ND I'll confront you since you seem to be keen on it. I agree, A340's have gotten more orders in the last year. HOWEVER!!!! look at the total amount of ordrs and you will see that Boeing's product is prefered. I don't want to start an A vs. B war here but if people would just look at the facts, and not their personal opinion, they would see that the 777 out performs the A340 in almost every category.

I also really don't think the 777NG will be failures. They both out perform their airbus competitors. Having said that Airbus makes great planes as does Boeing. They are skilled at what they do. Customers make the descision...not us.

AA787

[Edited 2004-03-08 22:52:22]

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Korg747
Posted 2004-03-08 22:55:47 and read 7330 times.

I agree with the comments of airbus should be redoing their A32X. Airbus has to wait anyway for the 7E7 to come out and see what happens. This way they would have facts and not promises and predictions.

I would say it's about time for us to see a new A320-300 where it would have some major performance and efficiency improvement. Not that I 'm saying the current A322 doesn't have it, but airlines will not refuse an improved A323 to replace the agening old A322s....Nothing more.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Roberta
Posted 2004-03-08 23:00:34 and read 7279 times.

l1011

the 330 has a better max pax range 5600 vs 5200 as does the 343 6900 vs 7300 although they are slightly smaller 10% roughly and the same winner still applies JUST.

you forgot the a300

The 747 Advanced will further increase Boeing's dominance.

IMHO it aint gonna happen

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2004-03-08 23:08:36 and read 7221 times.

I think retooling the 8 abreast fuselage, then progressing upwards from the A310 to the A340-600 is a logical step, one that will take 10 years but get Airbus closer to where they need to be to compete with Boeing.

Also, an all new A320 with a totally composite structure and advanced technology is a good plan.

N

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2004-03-08 23:38:05 and read 7113 times.

I think the smart move would be for Airbus to continue to improve the 777-Competitor line

I've said this before, but I think the A330/A340 family is just about maxed out in terms of future development. The A340NG program was a huge undertaking, and probably pushed the airframe as far as it will go. To match the level of composites in the 7E7 as well as new systems, wing, ext. you might as well start from scratch.

Simply to big....I am an Airbus engineer,and I think is to big..

Why is 20% an impossible figure to reach for a new airframe? Since Boeing cut operating costs for the 737NG by 10% relative to 737-300, I don't think that 20% is an impossible goal for Boeing, especially since they are starting from scratch.

20% less than a 767.

A 767 cost less to operate (but makes less money) than an A330. If the 7E7 cost less to operate than a 767 but carries the same passengers as an A330, it should be greater than 20% more efficient than an A330.

an all new A320 with a totally composite structure and advanced technology is a good plan.

I agree. The A320 has by far been the greatest success for Airbus, and in a highly competitive market they will not want to yield anything.

BTW- We've been directly comparing A to B for 23 posts and a flame war has not erupted, nice going everyone.. maturity can be fun  Smile

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: BoingGoingGone
Posted 2004-03-09 01:00:35 and read 7021 times.

Where on earth is boeing going to find these mysterious efficiencies.

Winglets 10%
Bleedless Engine 5%
Significant Weight Reduction - 5%

Total: 20%

767-400ER (Same Capacity as 7E7)

OEW: 227,400

7E7-XXX

OEW:205,350

It's a mystery to me.....

Not.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Roberta
Posted 2004-03-09 02:09:31 and read 6949 times.

Winglets 10%
Bleedless Engine 5%

holy crap do the winglets really improve 10%

Surely airbus could modify these two things on there own aircraft (NG versions) without too much hassle in order to compete with the 7e7 when it arrives. This would essentially mean only the weight is the differential factor. mind you thats still 22t heavier 332vs7e7 (332+5meters longer).

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: BoingGoingGone
Posted 2004-03-09 02:15:29 and read 6913 times.

holy crap do the winglets really improve 10%

Yup...

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/q2/nr_030617g.html

and, on a smaller scale aircraft

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_winglets.html

I should have added "New wing/Winglets". That will have much to do with the fuel performance as well.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: ND
Posted 2004-03-09 07:48:15 and read 6767 times.

AA787,

If you analyze my "profile", you'll see that I love debating, the signature is somewhat of an inside joke  Big grin.

Once again, I said I could be wrong about things in that post.

I myself love Boeing more than Airbus, but what worries me the most are the costs of Boeing's 777s. In my opinion, I just think that it is way too much and a lot of airlines look at the cost up-front before dealing with long-run costs (at least subconsciously).

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Tom_eddf
Posted 2004-03-09 22:14:39 and read 6579 times.

They should design a composite version of the traditional 2-4-2 cross section used for all widebodies, and derive a complete new lineup from it over the years, starting with the

A350SR 270 seater to replace the AB6
A350LR 229 seater to replace the A313
A360 to replace the A330
A360IGW to replace the A340-300 with a twin design
A370 to replace the A346
A370LR to replace the A345

The A320 series should be updated with new technologies, materials and engines - boeing still sells a lot of 737 more than 30 years after launching the inital design.

Too bad I'm not Mr. Airbus  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2004-03-09 22:25:57 and read 6526 times.

Remember the 736 is really based on the inital legnth of the plane, the A318 is shrunk from a 150-seater.

This isn't true. The 318 has been turning out better numbers than the 736. The 736 is a shrink from the 737-700, and yes the 318 is a shrink of the 320 but still.

With winglets, Boeing has the advantage.

That isn't true at all. The winglets help Boeing close the gap, but the 320 still has more range and payload.

However, the 739X would have the edge, so we'll see.

Why would you say this? There's been no mention of any specifications, so how could you know that?

better technology.

Come on man. Stick to the facts, please. Both the 340-500/600 and the 777NGs are at the epitome of technology.

Judging by the 777's great advantage over the 340 in every category, little doubt is left as to the winner.

What? The 346 outsells the 773ER, has more range than the 773ER, and has flown for commercial carriers. We need to post less feelings and more facts.

I like both planes, I just can't stand the wild factoid throwing that comes from people here. Sigh.

N

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: L.1011
Posted 2004-03-09 22:58:33 and read 6474 times.

I'm saying the eventual winner Gigneil. You cannot disagree with the fact the Boeing has won with the 777 in every other category. I feel it's a safe leap to make that the NGs will do it as well. Gigneil, yes there has been a mention of specs for the 739X. These have been extensively discussed here. Well let's compare the A322 and 738 shall we?

A320: Payload: 35,900 pounds Range: 3,050 statute miles
737-800: Payload: 44,462 pounds Range: 3,383 statute miles

Data from Boeing, Airbus, and Lauda Air websites. Conversions done by me. Any questions?

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2004-03-10 00:16:19 and read 6400 times.

A320: Payload: 35,900 pounds Range: 3,050 statute miles

The A320's range is 3,050 nautical miles.

yes there has been a mention of specs for the 739X

Fantasy specs that were made up here, boss. Nothing at all real.

N

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Xwizard
Posted 2004-03-10 00:41:45 and read 6349 times.

Gotta agree with Gigneil,

The idea that Boeing aeroplanes are better than their Airbus equivalents in almost every category is just crazy.

I'm also intrigued that Boeing is good to clean up with its 737 replacement...the last time they looked at it they only modernised it to the NG series - the temptation to cry "If it ain't broke, don't fix it will be pretty hard to overcome I guess.

One for L.1011...Also the 764 is a better plane from a passenger perspective?????. Says who?

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Roberta
Posted 2004-03-10 00:50:11 and read 6321 times.

737 vs 320 (and the whole of AvsB) just as good as each other from the stats i've seen but the 320 wins on aesthetics by far.........surely

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: L.1011
Posted 2004-03-12 01:41:31 and read 6154 times.

Xwizard,

You can't argue with 85% window or aisle seats.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: YYZ4RADD
Posted 2004-03-12 05:02:43 and read 6021 times.

It amazes me how people who are so ignorant in aviation matters are posting such detailed matters on comparing A vs. B.

L.1011 your posting on A vs. B comparison so faulty, being from the USA I expect you to stand behind Boeing. Your post is completely pro-Boeing. Please lets try to analyze the facts.

Even traditional Boeing airlines such as Qantas have been switching over to Airbus planes, not only because of deep discounts but becaues these planes meet their requirements.

Some airlines have gone Boeing for certain requirements and are happy with it.

Airbus has been so busy with the A380 project they have been neglecting a replacement for the A300/A310 and A320 series. The 7E7 will take some of their profits away but I am not sure Airbus will throw away a chance.

They do have a lot of research done from the A380 and A340NG series so I am sure they have a replacement somewhere.

Boeing on the other hand seems too distracted by their competition and also their military contracts to focus on offering a better product range for their customers. They are doing things from an observer perspective to play catchup.

Once upon a time they made solid planes like the 707. 727. 737 . 747 and even the 777 are good solid products with a good track record. Now they have reduced concentration to three lines, 777, 7E7 and 737NG. That is not a good offering.

Regards,

YYZ4RADD

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: L.1011
Posted 2004-03-12 23:53:48 and read 5850 times.

YYZ,

Airbus has only 3 lines that are really gaining orders, A320, A330, A340.

And you should really examine your own posting and discover its extreme Airbus bias before preaching to me about bias.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Babybus
Posted 2004-03-13 00:16:57 and read 5794 times.

Do we have any real, tangible, evidence of "deep discounts" from Airbus? I know Mr O'Leary of Ryanair said Boeing were literally giving away their 737's to him. The price was sooooo low that "I wouldn't tell my priest what I paid for them!"

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2004-03-13 00:44:47 and read 5716 times.

Airbus, no question, can offer larger discounts than Boeing can, there are several factors in this. Airbus uses newer manufacturing processes, so it can build aircraft for slightly less than Boeing can. But it ultimatly comes down to risk- will selling aircraft at cut-rate prices make a profit? Boeing and EADS are both publicly traded companies, but Boeing is much more accoutable to its shareholders. If it gambled incorrectly, Boeing could loose billions and would be finished.

Plus, once Airline A notices that Airbus or Boeing sell aircraft for less to Airline B, Airline A will want that price too. If Airbus or Boeing is unwilling to match, Airline A holds the trump card- they threaten to switch suppliers. No one can sell aircraft at low prices to everyone and stay in business, so long-term I think Airbus EasyJet and Boeing Ryanair are bad ideas.

However, I think the Airbus deal with EasyJet was a bigger gamble. EADS share prices droped 4% on the news of 120-A319, 6.2 billion USD order. Winning an order should make shares go up, which makes me think Airbus did not make a profit.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2004-03-13 01:29:00 and read 5658 times.

Airbus has only 3 lines that are really gaining orders, A320, A330, A340.

That's the only lines they market, so that makes sense.

The A380 is gaining orders at the rate expected for an aircraft that hasn't flown.

Airbus, no question, can offer larger discounts than Boeing can, there are several factors in this.

Airbus is willing to operate at a sharper margin than Boeing is, and that's the main difference.

N

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: L.1011
Posted 2004-03-13 02:53:48 and read 5571 times.

I know it makes sense Gigneil. It was in response to YYZ saying that Boeing is "doomed" or "stupid" or something to cut down to 3 lines. And I was pointing out Airbus is the same.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2004-03-13 04:09:20 and read 5490 times.

I see your point L.1011 and for the most part I agree with you, here are my thoughts-

Once upon a time they made solid planes like the 707. 727. 737 . 747 and even the 777 are good solid products with a good track record.

What about the 757 and 767, combine sales for both families is more than 2,000 frames?

Now they have reduced concentration to three lines, 777, 7E7 and 737NG. That is not a good offering.

Boeing hasn't abandoned the 747, and if you reduce Boeing to three families like you have done you have the 777 vs A340, 7E7 vs A330, and 737NG vs A320. Since any 747Adv will not directly compete with the A380, I fail to see how this leaves Boeing with a "good offering."

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Francoflier
Posted 2004-03-13 04:36:19 and read 5402 times.

Oh gee, I have unwillingly fired up yet another Airbus Vs Boeing war...

Of course, on this site, I can just sneeze and somehow it will result in an A vs B conflict...

 Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Marcopolo747
Posted 2004-03-13 06:19:34 and read 5313 times.

My best guess is a 320NG family and either a 330 derivative or a new large twin, both offering cabins that are passenger pleasing besides the technological advances and economy features.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Roberta
Posted 2004-03-13 08:36:11 and read 5252 times.

How easy/difficult would it be for airbus to redesign the 8-abreast cross section with composites. Could they just rerelease the whole 300 310 330 and 340 series with changes in material, with newer wings and bleedless engines where needed (310,300) or would a whole structural redesign be necessary.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: BoingGoingGone
Posted 2004-03-25 09:33:20 and read 4936 times.

Oh gee, I have unwillingly fired up yet another Airbus Vs Boeing war...

Damn French!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Adria
Posted 2004-03-25 10:15:38 and read 4796 times.

It is funny how the same people who say the A380 will fail it's performance goals, and at the same time they all say the 7E7 is going to be 20% cheaper and so on. Well you cannot go to the Boeing website and believe what they write about their aircrafts and the same goes for Airbus.
There is no need to replace the A320 Family as it is selling better then the 737. The A332(with some modifications) can be a good competitor until Airbus produces a new one.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: SailorOrion
Posted 2004-03-25 10:31:03 and read 4739 times.

Roberta:

It is possible to "just replace" an aluminum fuselage with a carbon composite fuselage, but that makes very little sense. A clean-sheet composite fuselage would most probably be very different in design from a metal fuselage, most likely it would be stringer/frameless design with more hull thickness to add stability. Depending on the used technology and fibres, weight savings could be anything between 5% and above 25%, however high-strength or high-modulus fibres are not really cheap. Also, a sandwich construction is possible. While being more expensive composite fuselages would be significant advantages in durability and maintenance sectors.

We've conducted tests about field repairs on critical structures (wings, fuselage, ... ) with equipment that could be carried aboard any aircraft, and the results were very promising: With very little effort, we reached 99% static and around 95% dynamic stiffness of the unrepaired structure, figures which you cannot achieve with metal systems.

About the 777 or the A340 being in the "epitome" of technology: I'm sorry but this is simply not true. Many technologies which are readily available have not been applied to commercial airliners, which are normally about 15-20 years behind what is technologically feasible (mostly because of the certification authorities). Also, if you compare the manufacturing process to the one of a mid-sized car, you're under the impression that both Boeing and Airbus are somewhere stuck in the middle ages, and there Boeing goes the right way: It is easily possible to reduce manufacturing costs by 30% or more.

SailorOrion

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Motorhussy
Posted 2004-03-25 11:22:07 and read 4645 times.

How about an A32X family replacement. One that's based on a blended wing design.

This would be small enough to not necessitate major changes in aprons, taxiways and runways as well as getting the flying public used to this style of transport, preparing us for a future uber-liner based around a similar BWB monocoque design.

A true revolution and one that can take full advantage of carbon-fibre composites etc.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: HlywdCatft
Posted 2004-03-25 15:34:46 and read 4432 times.

I think by the time Airbus comes with an A320 replacement and Boeing with a 737NG replacement, I wouldn't be surprised if Embraer or Bombardier also has something planned about that size. Lets not forget the Canadian and Brazilian companies.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: KEESJE
Posted 2004-03-25 16:08:11 and read 4456 times.

My guess would be a much improved long range 300 seater 330 series twin,

an "A330- 300ER".


- new flight controls / dynamics system (as now tested on Awiator)
- big winglets (as now tested on Awiator)
- new high bypass ratio engines (~80.000lb)
- significant higher MTOW (~300.000 lb) and a range of about 8000 Nm
- new lighter materials where practicle
- updated cabin options/lay out


Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Cloudboy
Posted 2004-03-25 16:59:18 and read 4194 times.

Seems to me everyone is thinking too copmplicated here.

There have been a ton of materials advances the last several years, computers have made aerodynamic research and design much more efficient, and the aerospace companies have been working on driving down manufacturing costs. So there is a bunch of new stuff coming out to warrant totally new plane designs.

Plus, I believe that both Airbus and Boeing are headed torward a much simpler structure in their offerings - a narrowbody design and a widebody design, and eventually drop the many different models and fuselages. Just offer different extensions of the basic plane. That is why I think both are changing the way they name the planes.

Boeing is working on pushing out their twin isle product, and I bet they then take that technology into the single isle and come out with something to cover the 737 series. Airbus I think is using the 380 to build up some experience with the technology, and then their next move will be to come out with a high-efficiency twin isle product, which since it will be later and can gain from Boeings experience. But of course they will have to catch up with a single isle product, too.

So Boeing will likely have a twin isle based on the 7E7, and a single isle product, Airbus will have the 380 for the large market, their own high efficiency twin isle, and a high-efficiency single isle. From there its is just stretching the fuselage.

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: SNBA319
Posted 2004-03-25 18:11:20 and read 4066 times.

... the 7e7 will meet performance goals of 20%...


all this talk about performance improvements.  Yawn

Can anybody maybe answer my question; all these improvements, these are on the basis of calculations and testmodels etc...i guess...but are there ever any reports on actual results after planes are in service. Most people are yelling about facts etc they have heard and read on sites, but do these facts & predictions work out in the end?

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2004-03-25 18:58:06 and read 3970 times.

42.6% of all statistics are made-up on the spot  Big grin

Regards,
dfw

Topic: RE: Next Airbus...
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2004-03-25 19:02:47 and read 3941 times.

More like 43.6%, but you're pretty close Big grin


SNBA319: Airframers and engine makers put their money where their mouth is. Meaning that they write performance guarantees into contracts with the operators. For example, the MD-11 performed way below expectations, so the operators received penalty money and so on.

However, Boeing says 20% in a press release. What's written in a contract is another matter!

Finally: The proof is in the pudding. We'll see when she flies!


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