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Topic: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-07 15:56:49 and read 3645 times.

Well I called it.....

Frontier Airlines to move to Lambert's D Concourse
Frontier Airlines is continuing to establish itself in St. Louis by moving its service to the D Concourse at Lambert-St. Louis International Airport effective Wednesday.

The Denver-based airline, which currently operates out of Concourse A, expects the move to give its passengers easier access to their gates. The airline has recently announced increases to its service from St. Louis to Denver, Los Angeles and Cancun, Mexico.

"Frontier's growing presence in St. Louis is representative of the renewed interest in this market," said Leonard Griggs, director of Lambert, in a statement. "Frontier's move to Concourse D will help to relieve the lengthy line of passengers which have frequently emerged at our Concourse A security check point," he said.

The D Concourse had been occupied by American Airlines before it downsized its service to St. Louis and moved to the C Concourse.

Looks like they are going to give F9 room to grow at Lambert by allocating them as many gates in D as they'd like. Looks good for future growth by F9 and hopefully we'll see MCO and LGA come online at some point in time as hinted by Mariner.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2004-04-07 16:00:24 and read 3624 times.

" Looks good for future growth by F9 and hopefully we'll see MCO and LGA come online at some point in time as hinted by Mariner."

I think they would make a killing on both of those routes, not to mention the possibility for connections further west to DEN, LAX, or CUN.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2004-04-07 16:08:07 and read 3607 times.

On the other hand, does anyone think that the only reason they're expanding in St. Louis is because they can't get more space in DEN? If there were to be a turn around in DEN and F9 got the gates they want, would it make sense to maintain another hub in St.Louis, so close to DEN?

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2004-04-07 16:15:22 and read 3593 times.

This is like shuffling the Chairs on the Titanic-Colonel "Mustache" Griggs a political appointee has let the terminal go down hill while he was running it-they can't even keep the moving sidewalks going-or the ceiling from leading!

As for the lines a Concourse A-yes they were huge-but why couldn't the airport through Colonel do something before this-and don't give me its not his department nonsense-my complaint to TSA means nothing his should have-

While screeners were sitting with their hands in their pockets on Con. D there were long lines at A

And as you all note STL wasn't mentioned by Airtran WN or Jet Blue-given the vacuum at Lambert this says something about either the airport, its management or the number of O&DE there-

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-07 16:18:30 and read 3588 times.

Talking about a hub is getting a bit ahead of ourselves, I would be happy to see it be a five city station by this time next year. The future for Frontier here does look good, and hopefully they will creep around the big scAAred wolf (they act is if they are scared of LCC's in STL as they back down). However, we could be overlooking the primary reason for F9 making this move, lack of office space. There basically is none at F9's current position in STL, I may even expect HP to follow them to D. HP occupies STL's b*stard gate.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Atcboy73
Posted 2004-04-07 17:24:53 and read 3547 times.

I called the Customer Relations number at Frontier and spoke with a nice lady who asked around a wasn't able to come up with any info as to which gates or how many they would be taking.

She said it might still be in the works and that maybe the media just got a hold of it before it was final.

Anyone here have any concrete info on which gates will be used?

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Pilotpip
Posted 2004-04-07 17:33:26 and read 3530 times.

The gates at the very far West end of D are the only ones that are still there. I think there were still three there. I can't recall though. Regardless, they are adding two more flights to DEN, and starting LAX and CUN service soon. I flew on them once, standby, and was very impressed with how nice everybody was. I don't think that the space in DEN is an issue, the airline is expanding service in a few other markets as well.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2004-04-07 17:40:13 and read 3507 times.

Are you saying two more flights to DEN for a total of 4 dailys or just two as they have now? I hadn't heard about those flights, but I'm not surprised considering that American only uses RJs on the route now. F9s product is much better.
As far as where on D the gates are, I can't understand why they wouldn't take gates that are close to the security checkpoint by the food court. Thats a long long walk down D unless maybe they are thinking about using the east checkpoint.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2004-04-07 18:18:54 and read 3463 times.

Airbazar:

The gate issue at DEN was settled at the end of last year. F9 got a few of UA's A Concourse gates temporarily while the city expands F9's end of the concourse. Some of those gates will be available this summer via extended jetways.

F9 management is on record saying the agreement reached will allow it to grow as planned. I am assuming that means their growth will NOT be inhibited by the gate issue at DEN.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2004-04-07 18:28:37 and read 3447 times.

DEN is giving F9 all the gate space they want. They are even building a new Regional Jet Center for them. Space is not an issue anymore. F9 is expanding is a few markets and this is just another one of them. It is way to close to DEN for them to use it as a hub. F9 just sees potential here and is taking advantage of it. If F9 is to open another hub it will be on the east somewhere.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Mariner
Posted 2004-04-07 18:41:09 and read 3414 times.

Quickmover:

"...we'll see MCO and LGA come on line at some point in time, as hinted by mariner."

Just to set the record straight, I don't recall mentioning STL/MCO - I may have, though, and I think it may be a good idea. I just don't know enough about STL.

The reason I posted STL/LGA was because Sean Menke, head of marketing at F9, said they were looking at it.

It would be a head butt with AA, of course, and I'm not sure what they'd do about slots at LGA - but why would he mention it if it wasn't under consideration?

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: SegmentKing
Posted 2004-04-07 18:45:41 and read 3402 times.

Frontier's only hub will remain to be Denver. All the other cities will just be focal points, or cities with lots of flights (meaning, strictly O/D).

Good move Potter!

-n

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2004-04-07 18:51:02 and read 3377 times.

Having several "focus cities" around the country is a good way for us to get our name out there. Our home will always be DEN and rightfully so, but there are obvious oppurtunities elsewhere that we are going to exploit. Our product is a good fit for any major business/leisure market.

FYI, we just took delivery of two new a/c....one A318 and one A319, ships 805 and 926, respectively.


Steve/MSY

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-07 19:07:11 and read 3343 times.

A superior product is what in my mind has won customers on the DEN-STL route. Before when AA was running 757's against F9's Mesa CRJ's, there was no competition and nobody even knew who F9 was in STL. Now that they have triumpthantly returned, offering as most people like to call them "little tv's in the headrests", people know who they are, and in some cases are going out of their way to fly F9. Hence, the success of the DEN route.

STL-LGA would be easy pickings for F9 assuming that they could do it, it's a heavy route w/ around 1400 pax per day and has only 5 AA S80's on it.

BTW, I'm liking the idea of a STL-DEN-LAX (small focus-hub-large focus) idea right now, very well balanced and well thought out. I would assume that this move into D has meanings for future growth right?

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2004-04-07 19:32:05 and read 3288 times.

Mariner,

I was quoting another poster who was quoting you. Sorry for the mix up.

LGA would be great, but I agree that it will be a problem to get slots. I think that there is a resentment in STL against AA since they cut service and those customers are looking for alternatives besides Southwest. I truly believe there are some people that won't fly SWA regardless of their "media darling" status. The F9 product head to head against SWA is no contest in F9s favor. Frontier is not as well known but that is changing. The media loves JBLU as well, but I can't see anything that they offer that F9 doesn't offer except frequency up and down the east coast.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Mariner
Posted 2004-04-07 19:36:33 and read 3274 times.

According to two F9 staff who have posted on the Yahoo board, the gates are D4 and D6 with the first flight in tonight, April 7.

Quickmover:

Yes, after I had posted I re-read the thread and saw you were quoting LambertMan. It was early here and I still hadn't had my first coffee.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2004-04-07 20:05:34 and read 3228 times.

"would it make sense to maintain another hub in St.Louis, so close to DEN?"

So close? You are kidding me, right? That's about a thousand miles right there.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Jmy007
Posted 2004-04-07 20:10:57 and read 3214 times.

"would it make sense to maintain another hub in St.Louis, so close to DEN?"


Then I would guess DFW and ORD are way to close as well  Big grin

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2004-04-07 20:16:29 and read 3195 times.

ATL-DFW
ATL-CVG
ORD-IAD

... all current hub pairs that are lots closer than STL-DEN. In fact, ORD-DEN is not much farther than STL-DEN.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Mariner
Posted 2004-04-07 20:20:32 and read 3185 times.

I very much doubt that you will see an Eastern hub for Frontier at any time in the foreseeable future.

This (long) article from the Rocky Mountain News gives the history of the decision to expand at LAX:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/business/article/0,1299,DRMN_4_2779794,00.html

One of the key points is that Frontier thinks they are a "Western" airline, and they weren't keen on an Eastern hub.

I think they're right. The East Coast is shaping up as a blood bath. The arrival of Independence Air isn't going to make things any easier over there.

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Frontier will continue on thir present path - some expansion at LAX, but also some expansion of point to point services from cities such as STL.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2004-04-07 20:29:02 and read 3160 times.

Lambert... you and I did call it correctly a few months back, though. All the available capacity at STL won't go unused for long. Other carriers will gradually move in to take advantage of cheap gates and untapped O&D.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-07 21:15:05 and read 3108 times.

Thanks for that article Mariner, it was a good read. I will agree that there will be no "hub" (at least in the near future), but as I said up top, I would like it to be a five city station by this time next year. There are a number of destinations that would be easily done from STL by undercutting AA on their "prize"(not prize, but the best they've got) routes out of STL. I would almost assume that F9 stay off AA's turf here in STL because we could have a big problem if AA gets upset. A focus city would be great in my book (For an airline the size of F9, 5-6 cities would be one), a decent amount of service w/o cutting into AA's new found yield in St Louis.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Mariner
Posted 2004-04-07 21:22:47 and read 3088 times.

LambertMan:

If we assume there is any truth to the rumor about STL/LGA, then that gives you four cities from STL - DEN/LAX/CUN/LGA.

Which makes a very nice, if very small, route map from STL - cross country and one international. And, for New Yorkers, CUN might be quicker through STL than DEN.

I do agree that it would be best if F9 stayed out of AA's turf (excluding LGA and CUN, of course), but where would they go that doesn't cut into AA?

I can think of a couple, and at least one of those isn't in the US, but beyond that I'm a bit stumped.

As I said, I don't know STL all that well.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2004-04-07 21:26:49 and read 3080 times.

Lambertman,

I remember back in 2000 when AA decided to come to STL and try out a few of TWA's "prized routes". They started with 3 daily STL-LAX, a few STL-LGA. I can't remember if there were others, but maybe STL-PHL. Within a year TWA was purchased. Isn't it funny how things go full circle and now AA is on the receiving end of "cherry picking"?

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Atcboy73
Posted 2004-04-07 21:34:30 and read 3062 times.

Only two gates. I was hoping for at least 4 so that we could have an indication of more expansion. But two isn't bad and its much better than the situation they have now on A.

I flew out on CO a few months ago and it seemed they were in a very temporary situation on A.

Could we see STL-BOS, PHL, DCA and ATL after more gates are oppened with out upsetting AA? And who knows, maybe AA would add capacity as the market gets bigger due to Frontiers competitive fares.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-07 21:36:09 and read 3063 times.

Quick,
That's odd, I don't ever remember hearing about AA on those routes, but I really wouldn't doubt it w/ AA's extensive point to point network over the years.
Mariner,
I'll agree that there isn't many places they can go w/o cutting into AA, but there are a few places where they could go where demand isn't necessarily satisfied by AA such as SAN, SJC, SFO, FLL, TPA, MSP......But I doubt we'll see any of those happening.

Who knows though, I know that the residents of St Louis are no longer partial to AA because of "What they did". Everyone interpreted as though AA was out to get St. Louis, which is a bad wrap for AA, because obviously that isn't what happened. There isn't much else to fly out of STL except for WN (which some people won't fly at all) besides AA, so thus the loyalty has remained in AA's lap. If another carrier such as F9 were to come in here with the product they offer, you can bet on FF'ers switching their loyalty to F9.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Mariner
Posted 2004-04-07 21:46:13 and read 3032 times.

LambertMan:

I hadn't thought of Florida. I assumed that AA had that pretty well covered from STL.

Howsumever, F9 does very well DEN/Florida during the winter. Obviously MCO and FLL, but, surprisingly to me, DEN/RSW is very good route for them.

So you never know.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-07 21:54:25 and read 3011 times.

Mariner,
RSW seems to kind of be a sleeper market that always slips under the radar. I know almost all the ins and outs of the AA sched at STL and I tpyically forget that RSW is even served by AA. I know quite a few people who use the STL-RSW flight for trips to Naples and I think it performs pretty well for AA and typically goes out about 90% or fuller. I'm sure the yield is absoultely stellar though.  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2004-04-07 21:57:35 and read 3000 times.

Lambertman,

You're right about the loyalty that AA inherited. Some people value those FF miles more than gold and if they have to connect at ORD or DFW they will no matter what. Maybe F9's FF program with a 15k mile requirement vs. 25k on the majors should be promoted more.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Luv2fly
Posted 2004-04-07 22:01:29 and read 2988 times.

I would imagine AA will defend there turf and routes at STL! Tho IMHO I believe that the hubs of MIA, DFW and ORD are still more important than STL to AA.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2004-04-07 22:10:08 and read 2966 times.

Lambertman:

St Louis won't see much more traffic until either (a) the economy not only rebounds but business traffic goes beyond the 1990's level and there is need for another mid continent hub.(2) St. Louis's own economy grows-

The first is possible the second is a real long shot.

I like St. Louis and am unhappy we don't have more air service-but if the smart people like air tran wn and jet blue haven't come here in the 8 months since the announcement of the dehubbing what makes you think that there is hope.

From what I can see we've gotten more frequent flights to the American Hubs and to the Cincinnati hub-and we've gotten two new nonstop (one a day on two routes) on wn which has reduced the gross number of flights. I've flown on the new Frontier Flights and they are very nice- but still just a tiny dent-Frankly the fact that you correctly note they and WN are cherry picking indicates to me that AA with its higher cost may eliminate one or more of its flights-

Bottom line no real new flights to new cities-even with WN, JBlue and F9 getting lots of new planes and the other airlines having plenty of them in the dessert-

Bottom line this is America and the market rules-

And as I have pointed out although we have a great city our airport terminal sucks

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-07 22:17:48 and read 2958 times.

Ultrapig,

I'm not saying that we'll see that much more air traffic. I realize that we had no reason to have a 522 flight a day hub. Our O/d traffic is pretty much satisfied in some areas, but other areas where AA has a stranglehold on the market and the demand is a bit undercut, I'd like to see some moderate LCC growth. Above I said that I'd like a five city station, basically enough to give me an opportunity to travel on F9 if I ever need to go west or some place. If you've read my previous posts, you would notice I am extremely greatful that AA just didn't dump STL as a focus city/hub (whatever you want to call it) all together.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: InnocuousFox
Posted 2004-04-07 22:37:31 and read 2931 times.

"Bottom line this is America and the market rules-"

... until such time as your sustained quarterly net loss takes you under... in which case, profit rules.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2004-04-08 00:03:55 and read 2878 times.

Lambertman,

I remember back in 2000 when AA decided to come to STL and try out a few of TWA's "prized routes". They started with 3 daily STL-LAX, a few STL-LGA. I can't remember if there were others, but maybe STL-PHL. Within a year TWA was purchased. Isn't it funny how things go full circle and now AA is on the receiving end of "cherry picking"?


AA launched no such expansions.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2004-04-08 00:12:31 and read 2860 times.

Comments on Frequent flier miles are interesting-It is amazing what people will do to earn them-like connecting instead of going non-stop or paying $30-$50 extra for a ticket to earn $25 worth of miles.

My prediction is that with the miles getting harder to use (especially out of STL where you need to hit two available flights for availability) people will care less and less about them.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Atrude777
Posted 2004-04-08 03:46:51 and read 2802 times.

I think its wonderful F9 sees something in STL, and is willing to move to the D-Concourse. I sure hope to fly them sometimes now. what peeves me off is im looking for a flight to OKC, and would love to try F9 so when I type in STL-OKC it says there is no flight, I knew that so i hoped they would connect me through DEN, but I guess not i would have to book two seperate flights. oh well, other then that Im glad F9 has a presence now.

Alex

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2004-04-08 03:48:46 and read 2793 times.

"Lambertman,

I remember back in 2000 when AA decided to come to STL and try out a few of TWA's "prized routes". They started with 3 daily STL-LAX, a few STL-LGA. I can't remember if there were others, but maybe STL-PHL. Within a year TWA was purchased. Isn't it funny how things go full circle and now AA is on the receiving end of "cherry picking"?

AA launched no such expansions. "


I would absolutely guarantee you that they did.
The flights all used super 80s from their old gates over on A. They were started only a short time before the takeover.



Topic: F9 To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-08 04:16:49 and read 2757 times.

Quickmover,

I certainly don't remember it and I have been following Lambert for a really long time. You may be thinking of when AA took over flying the JFK and DCA routes for TW right after the merger took place.

Atrude,

They aren't being forced to move the D concourse, they are happy to do it. They had no office space where they currently were in A, and basically had a temp operation setup by the looks of things. Remember now, this doesn't mean that F9 is committing to STL (hopefully they are however), it could be just because they needed the extra space, and after all they are only taking over two gates.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Atrude777
Posted 2004-04-08 04:23:57 and read 2731 times.

I didn't mean to come across as if they were being forced, I realize its on there own freewill. I would love for them to expand, however i certainly dont count on it, but man 4 cities N/S is way MORE the i ever expected and will definetly accept it. I would like to see it on the STL-MCO route. However, whatever they see fits them best i can work with it.

ps- I also dont ever recall them doing some expansion, except when they took over TWA routes.

Alex

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Quickmover
Posted 2004-04-08 05:20:55 and read 2688 times.

STL-LAX on AA started maybe 6 mos. before they announced the merger. If you remember, TWA started a focus city in San Juan with flights to LAX, BOS, MCO and maybe 1-2 more that I can't remember. Since AA had a small hub in San Juan, they retaliated with STL-LAX and STL-LGA. I'm a TWA fanatic and followed their unfortunate demise as well as their improved fleet and image in their last few years. If there are any AMR people around, please back me up.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Jmy007
Posted 2004-04-08 06:07:22 and read 2659 times.

Quickmover,

I remember those flights AA- STL-LAX,STL-LGA I think it was mid 2000 or so. I think it was only one or two flights a day.


From www.stltoday.com (st louis post dispatch archive)

"AMERICAN WILL OFFER DIRECT SERVICE FROM HERE TO LAGUARDIA
TWA SAYS THE MOVE IS IN RESPONSE TO ITS ROUTE TO PUERTO RICO
By Cynthia Wilson

Of The Post-Dispatch
St. Louis Post-Dispatch September 8, 2000

Section: BUSINESS Edition: FIVE STAR LIFT
Page C6 Word count: 594

ID#: 0009080283
American Airlines is stepping up its competition with Trans World Airlines Inc. on both coasts.

American, the nation's second-largest carrier based on fleet size, announced Thursday that it will begin daily nonstop service between St. Louis and New York's LaGuardia Airport. The service will begin Nov. 1, and will be offered three times daily on MD-80 aircraft modified to provide more legroom.

The airline, based in Fort Worth, Texas, said the move would mean more choices for "


(sorry it cost like 2.95 for the full artical)

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2004-04-08 06:13:57 and read 2642 times.

I stand corrected. Very interesting. Did the flight ever actually launch?

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-08 06:52:46 and read 2625 times.

It couldn't have. I've payed too close attention to St Louis over the years and the only AA changes I remember are the JFK and DCA ones. It was probably slated to start, then pushed back, then cancelled, you know the drill.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Boeing nut
Posted 2004-04-08 13:01:47 and read 2563 times.

On the other hand, does anyone think that the only reason they're expanding in St. Louis is because they can't get more space in DEN? If there were to be a turn around in DEN and F9 got the gates they want, would it make sense to maintain another hub in St.Louis, so close to DEN?

According to F9 people here in STL, that's the exact reason for thier expansion here. Then again, not everyone gets the prized information on thier own company so who knows.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Atcboy73
Posted 2004-04-08 18:18:59 and read 2509 times.

IF they are taking over two gates as stated by someone above we will surly see at least one or two more routes announced.

Two gates with the currant schedule of 5 flights a day (3 to DEN and 2 to LAX)not counting CUN is kind of a mis match. I would think they could easily get eight flights a day and maybe as many as 10 or 11. If they are only going to stay with the currant schedule they would of just taken over one gate.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Mariner
Posted 2004-04-08 18:36:05 and read 2486 times.

Boeing_nut:

The issue of the gates at DIA was settled last November. It isn't prized information, it was widely reported in the press:

http://www.frontierairlines.com/news/articleDisplay.asp?article=/general/2003/pr_11112003a.news

Basically, Frontier gets the gates they want at DIA for their expansion through 2008.

It is true, however, that the situation at Denver, when they didn't know how the gate issue would be resolved, caused Frontier to look outside Denver.

So you have the ramp up at LAX and the increased point to point flying from other cities, such as STL.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Air1727
Posted 2004-04-08 22:27:14 and read 2428 times.

Frontier was going to move to D no matter what; just in due time...there was no mystery to that; it was just a matter of when. They were leasing American owned gates in a gridlocked concourse; that was never going to last when they can move over to D or elsewhere and lease from the Airport Authority/City.

The AAL flights to LAX started in the summer of 2000 pre-acquistion; the LGA flights were short lived having started in the fall of 2000 but deferred by the end of the year. They absolutely operated them; I remember the day(s) they started them.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: F9Fan
Posted 2004-04-09 02:55:24 and read 2366 times.

I wonder if F9 will add some Florida service out of STL. I would think MCO, FLL, TPA, and possibly RSW would be good candidates for added service. These are cities they've had a lot of success on from DEN. I would think there would be plenty of leisure and some business travel from STL.

F9Fan

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Atrude777
Posted 2004-04-09 04:07:31 and read 2332 times.

F9FAN- It would be awesome if they do that, however I dont see it happening. MCO has about 5-6 N/S flights on that route alone with Southwest and AA. IF and I do say IF F9 were to start a Florida city it would more likely be FLL, because there is only 2 N/S on that route, 1-AA and 1-WN. Also it would be great preparation in case B6 comes to town and starts a STL-FLL(not saying it will happen, just an example.).

Air1727- At first I said they didn't, but now I do recall seeing something like that. It did shock me they would do such a thing to a huge profitable(at least I thought it was at the time) TWA hub, and thought AA would go down.(not bankrupt, just drop the route because it was TWA's turf, not AA)


the rest- I sure hope Frontier sees great success at STL, and more destinations will hopefully be possible!

Alex

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2004-04-09 17:08:14 and read 2249 times.

Today's St. Louis Business Journal this issue has not been posted on the Web yet) has a story entitled "Lambert surpass: American Up, Southwest Down" and describes what I said earlier here that as opposed to increasing its presence at Lambert WN has decreased it although it has added non-stops to two areas.

Since most people, even those who don't like to fly on it, concede that WN knows how to make a buck this confirms that the demand just isn't there for O&D> Perhaps this will quiet some of the former TWA people (not saying they were not good people or hard working) who thought there was some AA conspiracy or TWA management incompetence which lost their jobs.

The truth is that STL is a pretty good place to live. But it has insufficient O&D and a third world terminal. We'll get a few dribs of new flights when the new LCC's run out of places to land their planes but until the skies become saturated we will never be a hub again

Tell me why I am wrong?

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-09 18:12:53 and read 2213 times.

Because we have 10 million o/d passengers a year, no its not an ATL, MSP, or DEN of the world but it's good, better than SLC, CLE, CVG, MCI, MSY, MEM, CLT, PIT, among others. Ultrapig, I'm not asking for nonstops to Europe, all I want is just to see the market do well, and rebound a little. For an STL resident, you are the most negative poster I've ever seen.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2004-04-09 20:08:18 and read 2172 times.

Yes I am negative about the airport management-You may know that although our airport is in the county of St. Louis which surrounds the city proper it is owned by the City and for years has been a dumping ground for patronage employees-When the airport was busy we had a good shoot at improving the terminal and making it a good mid sized airport but management blew it.

In general if there are enough passengers to fill up 70% of a plane at reasonable fares from STL or any city to another city where said airlines has a station it will do so because they are in business to make a profit. Having not done so I assume we can't sustain those flights

As for your other cities:
SLC has a wonderful terminal in an area where there is generally good weather and its easy to connect.
I k don't know much about CLE, MSY and CLT but MCI is a pretty big ghost town for the same reasons we can't support a hub-not enough O&D (less than STL) and although its a great set of runways and a twenty year old set of terminals they ain't set up for a hub.

PIT is about to be taught the same lesson we got here and will have roughly the same service that we do and I think that Memphis either has or will get a similar lesson.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: NWA Man
Posted 2004-04-09 20:19:53 and read 2160 times.

but there are a few places where they could go where demand isn't necessarily satisfied by AA such as SAN, SJC, SFO, FLL, TPA, MSP


Good call on all of those... except MSP. NW still maintains a legitimate presence on this route, and if F9 were to come in and begin STL-MSP, their current "feud" with NW would probably get a lot nastier.


Regards,

N-Dub

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-09 20:29:08 and read 2154 times.

You say that MCI cannot support a hub because it doesn't have enough o/d, well look at CVG and MEM. Both airports have unbelievably low o/d and yet support a decent sized hub. NW is in no position to leave MEM, they definitely need MEM to keep the Southeast markets open to them.

May I remind you, STL does still support a hub, it may be small, but it is a transfer point in the AA system and several communities rely on it for their connection to the U.S. STL doesn't support a decent sized hub for one reason alone, WN, not the O/d. WN is the bain of AA's existence in STL and if there were no WN, I'd bet we'd have a hub at least the size of DL at SLC. You gotta think of what AA could be running could be running out of STL w/ no WN...
4 S80 to PHX, 5 S80 to BWI, TUL 3x ERJ, SDF 3x ERJ, MCI 7x S80, CMH 3 S80, SLC 2x S80, the list goes on, and on, and on.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Luv2fly
Posted 2004-04-09 20:31:20 and read 2138 times.

Given the choice when my travels include having to change a plane, I will even go to ATL before I go to STL, sorry true fact the terminal offers little creature comfort to say the very least.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2004-04-09 20:44:14 and read 2121 times.

Good point Lambert-I mean it but in the capitalist system for every action there is a reaction. We have WN. It brought down airfares-but it had something to do with AA decision to go downsize. I was in bankrutcy Court on TWAII when Judge Schermer asked about the effects of competition from SWA-I'm not sure it was the final nail but it was a nail and now new entrants are very cautious-this is ex specially disheartening when SWA doesn't want to expand here so we are getting the worst of both worlds. a shrinking SWA and no real growth in other carriers.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: LambertMan
Posted 2004-04-09 20:53:06 and read 2113 times.

Ultra,

If you could somehow post that article you read this morning, that would be great, because I'm having trouble finding it.

You bring up WN not wanting to expand here, but I heard that it's starting to turn around a little bit. Maybe the article says different, but I was under the impression that passenger loads were up something like 6%-9%. If WN stays the way they are, AA will pretty much keep this hub that they have now and continue to fine tune it to the best performing quazi-hub in the biz. In all reality, w/ WN and AA that's about all St. Louis can support. Would I rather see WN dissappear and have AA ramp up it's STL ops? Yes. Would I rather see AA dissappear and have WN ramp up it's STL ops? Oh god no. That's the reason why I could care less about WN not expanding here, because the more they do, the more it will upset AA. If AA pulls down its quazi hub, we would have a HUGE problem.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Air1727
Posted 2004-04-09 22:42:40 and read 2061 times.

Lets be clear here; Saint Louis is *not* a hub whatsoever. It hasn't been since November of last year. It is an o&d chemistry lab...nothing more, nothing less. I despise terms like "small hub" or "mini-hub" because they are slang. In the purest form of the word and terminology, you are either a hub or you are not; next to that you are a gateway, and from there a point of service airport. Saint Louis is a point of service airport with American operating a domestic o&d gateway.

Ultrapig; if you think management had the opportunity to turn the airport around during the heavy years of the late 90s; someone sent you the wrong memo. The key focus of the airport authority and joint city/county comission was to move ahead with runway capacity planning. The terminal was always on long term schedules and was never on the immediate table. They had no opportunity to even touch it then. Now is the time they have the opportunity on the premise of downtime and tenant mobility; however cash flow is stalled and bond ratings are in the toilet not too mention the runway project is still in its infancy. The airport is operated by the city, however all decisions regarding operations, expansion, planning, funding, etc are all made by a joint city/county airport comission. The county has plenty of say in what goes on there. The only problem which bothers myself as well is the piss poor staff they bring on there because of the city employment jurisdiction. But airports are a tremendous polluted political dumping ground, so don't expect that to change.

The one to watch right now is Frontier. Simple as that.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Ultrapig
Posted 2004-04-09 22:50:20 and read 2058 times.

Points well taken Air-you are probably right on a new terminal (actually you are right) but they could've cleaned up the old one so it didn't have dirty smelly carpets, dirty rest rooms and leaking roofs-and come on Virvus Jones on the payroll as a consultant? I'm sure you know his record.

I believe that STL remains a minihub in that I'm assuming that many of the passengers on he commuter flights are still transferring to LAX, SFO< EWR< BOS LGA MIA ORD and DFW-or am I wrong on this too? You seem to know what you are talking about.

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Atcboy73
Posted 2004-04-09 23:41:09 and read 2011 times.

Ultrapig

Is there any way you can post the article? Id love to read it.

Did it say that in the future AA would continue to grow and SWA would continue to reduce it ops? Or was it just going over the past?

Topic: RE: Frontier To Move To Lambert's D
Username: Air1727
Posted 2004-04-09 23:56:18 and read 1992 times.

Ultra : your intuition is clear and from an informal sense Lambert is indeed a "mini-hub"; but it is truly a domestic gateway which operates aside from the standard network. In order to be an actual hub, the city's operation must account for more than 30 percent of daily system movements/enplanements and also provide a complete connection structure. Saint Louis is American's side project; a gateway that serves the midwest essential air service and town markets as well as regional jet/mainline substitution programs to fulfill local o&d throughout the year/seasons. Dallas, Chicago, and Miami remain the only true hubs in American's system.


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