In scheduled operations?

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The DC-10-10 could handle shorter transatlantic flights, Laker in the 1970s and the UK 1980-90s charters who change their names every week (Caledonian/MyTravel etc) flew them from the UK to the US East coast.

Laker did

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

The DC-10-10 may have been able to do shorter transatlantic runs, but it was built to fly on transcontinental routes in the US. The real transatlantic versions were the DC-10-30 and -40, the only difference being the type of engines. The -30s had GE CF6s and the -40s had P&W JT9Ds at the request of NW and JAL.

American Airlines operated the DC-10-10 for a short while on the BOS-LHR run during the early 90's.

Yes. CP Air operated them. Back in the 80s, CP Air leased, 3 DC-10-30s to United. In return, United leased 3 DC-10-10s to CP Air. The series 10s operated under american registration in Canada, and the series 30s under Canadian registration for United.

The Thirties flying with United were C-GCPF, C-GCPG and C-GCPH. In return, CP got N1834U, N1836U and N1837U, in addition to N1816U for 1 month. They operated from 1983 to 1987 and the DC10-10s made numerous trips across the pond in sched. service. Here's a picture of one at Schipol:

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Photo © Peter de Groot

Didnt Western operate the DC10-10 on its short-lived Honolulu-Anchorage-London/Gatwick route?

"The real transatlantic versions were the DC-10-30 and -40, the only difference being the type of engines. The -30s had GE CF6s and the -40s had P&W JT9Ds at the request of NW and JAL."

More than that... the DC-10-30 had a shorter fuselage, a center landing gear assembly (""extra wheel") and a bigger fuel tank.

Continental did... I once took a DC-10 from IAH-EWR, and it was continuing on to FCO.

JBLU

TexAussie-

The DC-10 did not have a 'shorter fuselage.' It was equal in length. The aircraft was a beefed up -10 with more powerful GE engines, additional fuel tanks and centre gear to support the additional weight.

Regards.

a center landing gear assembly (""extra wheel")

As did the -40





Continental did... I once took a DC-10 from IAH-EWR, and it was continuing on to FCO.

That was a DC-10-30 that you rode m'friend

The DC-10 did not have a 'shorter fuselage.' It was equal in length. The aircraft was a beefed up -10 with more powerful GE engines, additional fuel tanks and centre gear to support the additional weight.

The DC-10-30 is actually larger than the DC-10-10 by a fair amount.

N

well if you consider 6cm a fair amount, then i guess it was.

[Edited 2004-05-29 20:50:05]

DC-10-10 was larger? Don't think so. I used to ride AA's -10s domesitcally and the -30s over the pond - they appeared noticibly shorter in the cabin and when parked next to a -10. May have been perception, but I remember asking the flight crew about the extra wheel and they noted the fuselage was also shorter, sort of like the 747sp was to the 747, albeit not as dramatic as that.

The DC10-10/15 and DC10-30/40, to my knowledge, had the same fuselage length and could accommodate the same number of passengers.

As to Roberta's comment about a 6 cm differential, an extra 6 cm in length can make a lot of difference, just depends on what you are talking about....

Well, after reviewing lots of photos on here, I must admit the evidence appears to not support my recollection. It's been a long time, but I was fairly certain the -30s were a bit shorter, but now I am not sure.

Interesting.

Mytravel back in 2002 operated some 10-10 series to YYC from MAN.
TDTW and other british registered Dc10s from MyTravel would hop over the pond and then stop at Goose Bay NF to refuel before continuning on to Calgary.

To throw a few facts into here - here's some specification from Boeing's website.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/dc-10/tech.html

Length:
Series -10: 182ft 3in (55.5m)
Series -15: 180ft 8in (55m)
Series -30: 180ft 8in (55m)
Series -40: 180ft 7in (55m)

Wingspan:
Series -10 and -15: 155ft 4in (47.3m)
Series -30 and -40: 165ft 4in (50.4m)

Tail height - same on all series.

So TexAussie is correct in saying the -30 is shorter than the -10.

Ooops sorry! I didn't notice it was for DC10-10s.... I guess the two 10s kind of blended together.

JBLU

The -10 and the -30 are basically the same airframe. The -30 has 98,000 lbs aux tank, a longer wing, and a center main landing gear. We have an ex-Laker -10 and I remember it had a small aux tank. I don't know how much fuel it held but my company deactivated the pumps in that tank so we didn't use it.

NightFlyer

Are you sure the different lengths arent down to the rear engine.

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Photo © Mark Hitzert

I seem to remember Western Airlines had some -30 series for the HNL-ANC-LGW service

"Are you sure the different lengths arent down to the rear engine."

I'm pretty certain that is the case when considering the -30 and -40 series, especially given that the only major difference between them is the fact they have different engines...

The -10 series is different, however. Both the -10 and the -30 are powered by CF6 engines, and I don't think the -30's CF6 is over 2ft longer than the -10's CF6.

EDIT:

I take that back, I am mistaken. I have just looked on GE Aircraft Engines' website and compared the CF6-6 (used on the -10 series) and the CF6-80C2 (on a lot of -30s). The 80C2 is 22 inches longer than the -6, so you may well be correct that it is down to the tail engine

EDIT 2: Sorry, factually wrong again, and now I'm confusing myself. The CF6-80C2 doesn't power the DC-10. I'm getting mixed up between the -80C2 and the -50C2. See my next post below.

[Edited 2004-05-29 21:55:08]

What´s the range of DC10-10? The "best" of the DC10´s was the -40, or is that wrong??

Micke//Krägga

I just wrote a post here but I've completely changed it now because what I wrote before was factually wrong.

The DC-10-30 is powered by the CF6-50, which is only 5in shorter in length than the CF6-6 on the DC-10-10. So no, I don't think it's down to the tail engine after all.

Sorry for my erratic posting, I'm getting confused now!

[Edited 2004-05-29 21:53:28]

What´s the range of DC10-10?

4000nm





or is that wrong??

yup, as usual  

Cheers, C-boy!

Micke//Smålands Stenar

I think it's generally agreed that the -30 is the best DC-10 version. Certainly more -30s operate than the -40s.

Laker operated their DC10-10's to the west coast USA from the UK, LAX & Oakland (if memory serves me correctly) in the late 70's with a tech stop in Bangor.

The DC-10-30 is actually larger than the DC-10-10 by a fair amount.

Actually, no. All DC-10 fuselages are identical--it's the length of the tail engine that accounts for the difference in length overall.

Back to the original topic (sort of), DC-10-10s were also used between the mainland and Hawaii. Although most of my DC-10 flights to/from Hawaii were -30s, I once took a -10 on United from HNL to KOA, the aircraft having just flown in from LAX.

I think that I flew a British Caldeonian DC-10-10 from MIA to LGW in 1986. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

P.S. We made an unscheduled stop in Bangor on the way home.

Continental Used to Operate -10 HNL-GUM but was ver very weight resticted by 100 Pax or so (over 6 Hours Flite)..But could run Full the Other way GUM-HNL..with the wind..Of course they flew the-10 on the CO Mike Routes GUM-BNE/SYD..,DPS, SEL, NRT, KIX, HKG, CTS, AB) (MNL / RPLL), Philippines">MNL, SPN..so the plane needed to rotate back to the Mainland...It had a PUB Inside..Not the best used of Space but pretty cool to Sit on a Barstool and have a Few Drinks on you way to Aussie..Ville..Some of the same operated the Co Trans Tassie Routes AKL-SYD,BNE,MEL..Then after a few years CO found out they were loosing money left and Right on the Routes..

"Actually, no. All DC-10 fuselages are identical--it's the length of the tail engine that accounts for the difference in length overall."

Having spent ages trying to work this out before and eventually gathering the data from the Boeing and GE Aero Engines websites, I refer you to my above posts, #17, #22 and #24...

The DC-10-10, at 182ft 3in, is 19in longer than the DC-10-30 at 180ft 8in.

The CF6-6 series, which powers the -10, is 5in longer than the CF6-50 series which powers the -30.

Somewhere in there, there's a shortfall of 14ins. Where does this go? Is the engine mounted slightly further aft on the -10 series? Or is there another reason?

I always check the planning manuals for information about any Boeing or MD aircraft. According to the planning manual for the DC-10, the overall length from the nose to the end of the engine for the different DC-10 series is:

-10: 182' 3.1" (55.55m)
-30: 181' 7.2" (55.35m)
-40: 182' 2.6" (55.54m)

The length of the fuselage for all DC-10 series is 170' 6" (51.97m).

http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/acaps/dc10sec2.pdf

HA763 is correct.

The length of the FUSELAGE is identical for both the series 10 and 30: 170 ft, 6 in. My source: United Airlines DC-10 training manual and Airman's Information Manual.

For those really keen, try http://www.esscoaircraft.com/ where you can find manuals for almost all categories of aircraft.

PS, what matters in terms of the overall length is not the length of the actual engine, but the length of the engine pod in which it is housed.

Mike
C-GTLM

The original CF6-6 (the modified civilian version of the TF-39) had a different exhaust assembly at first, but I believe most were converted to CF6-50 standard (becoming CF6-6D if I'm not mistaken) by the late 1970s, probably for noise reduction purposes. The tailpipe was slightly longer on these older versions.

I'm sure there's pictures of this somewhere on the database, but I'm not really up to searching for it now. If you want to, just look for photos of the DC-10-10 series from prior to 1975, and I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.

I was under the impression that the 14-19" discrepancy came mostly from the D-zone in an attempt to lighten the aircraft by removing a section of the fuselage in this area. I imagine it would also serve to move the CoG a little bit for a closer-to-optimal position at cruise (better efficiency=better range, and the DC-10-30 had a pretty impressive range for that era).

To answer the original question, yes, from time to time DC-10-10s subbed on transatlantic flights, almost exclusively EWR-LGW, but none were ever regularly scheduled transatlantic, at least to my knowledge (I never flew to Europe on the -10, only the -30). They were configured in a high-density arrangement, somewhere in the neighborhood of 290 seats, with only about 18 BF seats, so obviously not an ideal mix for transatlantic ops. Throughout their career with Continental, DC-10-10s were primarily operated on busy domestic corridors (EWR-IAH, EWR/IAH-LAX, EWR/IAH-MCO, IAH-SFO) and in the Pacific (LAX/SFO-HNL, GUM-HNL/NRT/HKG/BNE/SPN) while the DC-10-30s took Europe and the longest hauls, so the -10 series wasn't really needed across the pond.

Interesting discussion. I am always amazed at what one can learn from this site. Now I want to see a -10 beside a -30 to satisfy my curiosity.

Perhaps the longer wings on the -30, per a post above, make the fuselage appear to be shorter (relatively speaking) than that of the -10.

It is funny that we seem to have a few inches we can't account for, but it sounds like the #2 engine housing/tail pipe must be the point of variation between the variants.

Now that we've covered DC-10-10's crossing the Atlantic, weren't there a lot of L-1011s other than the -500s that crossed the pond? While Delta always published L15s on the European routes, I think some of their 1/2/300s went across in the early 80s. EA used a leased DC-10 (and sometimes a PA 747) for their London routes instead of the Tristar. Does ATA or (did) a Candian carrier (Transat or AC) use the non-500s on Transatlantic trips as well?

Western did use the DC-10-10 for their HNL-ANC-LGW service, as Dutchjet queried earlier. They acquired a former Air New Zealand DC-10-30 for their DEN-LGW service, dubbed "the Londoner".

Another difference between the DC10-10 and DC10-30 was that (at least at AA) the -10 had the lower lobe galley and the -30 had main deck galleys.

DC-10-30/40 have more 3.1m (10ft) of wing span than DC-10-10/15
In lenght the DC-10-10 has more 50 cm(2ft) than DC-10-15/30/40

Fuel Capacity:
(DC-10-10) 21,700 gal (82,135 L)
(DC-10-15) 26,645 gal (100,860 L)
(DC-10-30) 36,650 gal (138,720 L)

Powerplant (DC-10-10) three General Electric CF6-6D turbofans
(DC-10-15) three General Electric CF6-50C2F turbofans
(DC-10-30) three General Electric CF6-50C turbofans
(DC-10-40) three Pratt & Whitney JT9D-59A2 turbofans

Thrust (DC-10-10) 120,000 lb (533.81 kN)
(DC-10-15) 139,500 lb (620.55 kN)
(DC-10-30) 153,000 lb (680.60 kN)
(DC-10-40) 159,000 lb (707.30 kN)

Range (DC-10-10) 3,300 nm (6,110 km)
(DC-10-15) 3,780 nm (7,010 km)
(DC-10-30) 5,400 nm (10,010 km)
(DC-10-40) 5,000 nm (9,265 km)

My Travel Airways had 3 of these last year. They operated one on the Manchester - Toronto and some were put on routes to Sanford.

In the mid 90's Airtours used these for the majority of there transatlantic operations before the 767's anf A330's were brought in.

Best DC-10 30 vs 40? I suppose we should all defer to NWA which retired its 40's while still keeping its 30's in service, which is significant as NWA hardly ever finds fault with P&W's!

"Does ATA or (did) a Candian carrier (Transat or AC) use the non-500s on Transatlantic trips as well?"

Certainly did - Air Transat operated non-500s into European destinations before they started using 757s, A330s and A310s... and AFAIK they still used them occasionally even with the newer aircraft in service.

As for ATA... they did have a contract, which ended a few years ago, with Travel City Direct, a holiday firm which specialises in the Florida tourist market for UK holidaymakers. They operated their -50 series Tristars on flights from MAN, LGW and GLA to MCO, with a refuelling stop at YQX. The -50 series had the range to make it non-stop, and did so on the USA-UK legs on some occasions, but normally had to make the fuel stop because they were heavily laden and would have gone over MTOW with the extra fuel.

The fuel stop at YQX was quite nice actually - we all went into the terminal building, I got a couple of good photos of an AN-124 parked up on the tarmac, and the ice-cream there is absolutely delicious! Unfortunately, the contract for those flight later went to European Air Charter using ex-BA B747-200s when ATA started withdrawing the L-1011s, and the flights are now operated by Air Atlanta using B747-200s, including one painted in full Travel City Direct livery.

[Edited 2004-05-30 17:31:12]

Does ATA or (did) a Candian carrier (Transat or AC) use the non-500s on Transatlantic trips as well?

Yep, Delta, AC, ATA, Air Transat, TWA (forgot anyone?) did regulary operate non-500s to several European airports.

View Large View Medium Photo © Johan Ljungdahl

View Large View Medium Photo © Johan Ljungdahl

/Johan  

Delta operated the L-1011-250 extensively over the Atlantic. As I recall, the -250 series was basically an L-1011-1 fitted with stronger landing gear, additional fuel tanks, and the uprated RB211-524B variants. This aircraft had plenty long legs and was operated transatlantic with DL until the late 1990s and the advent of BusinessElite.

Did anyone mention Bangladesh Biman that still operate a DC-10-30 transatlantically to this very day? And a beautiful ride she is too!

I remember that the DC10-15 series was specially designed for MX), Mexico">MEX which is a hot and high airport. M.Douglas developed the -15 with improved GE power plants and some other variations to get AM and MX's order, which, if I remember correctly was for 7 frames (2 for AM and 5 for MX). Does anyone know if there were more -15 built?? I seam to remember that only AM and MX got the -15, but I might be wrong.

AM's two -15's (cn's: 48275/48276)

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View Large View Medium Photo © JetPix

MX's five -15's (cn's: 48258/48259/48289/48294/48295)

View Large View Medium Photo © Mark Durbin

View Large View Medium Photo © Matthew Lee - Contrails Aviation Photography

View Large View Medium Photo © Jose Luis Aguilar

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

TexAussie: I can only answer your question on the Delta L-1011s that went from LGW to Atlanta in the late 80's and even early 90s. They were exceptionally noisy as they took off, screeching infact, and they had a very long and roomy cabin with very high baggage bins that were almost impossible for women / hostesses to get to. In their day though the L-1011 looked huge inside and was a joy to fly on. Delta even allowed smoking on them across the pond but you had to extinguish all cigarettes 1/2 hour before US airspace that seemed to start at Boston for the smokers.

My other L-1011 was Saudia from LHR to Jeddah and Riyadh a couple of times. Again, very noisy and painful on the ears through pressurisation. The -500 was much better and I flew BAs, GFs, B-CALs, Air Lanka, Dragonair, CXs and BWIAs. I loved them.

Bangor, Maine used to see some of these 'short-legged jets on long-legged routes.' TIA, ONA and maybe even Laker and World would stop at BGR to tech-stop for more fuel. Flights between Europe and the west coast, or between Europe and Florida would use BGR. Today that practice still holds, but now for the short-legged 767-200s and 757s that tour operators employ. A great number of the troop charters from/to Frankfurt are using BGR now.

Venezuelan Santa Barbara use the DC10-30 on a regular basis, between Caracas and Madrid.

Capitol Airways also operated a DC10-10 over the pond for a short period in the early 80's.

As for the L1011 (non 500's), don't forget Air Canada & TWA used these across the Atlantic from about 1977 onwards. Delta also used L1011-200's on the ATL-LGW before the 500's were delivered.

As for the centre gear on the DC10-40's. Not all of them operated with the centre gear, JAL would often remove the gear when they were configured for domestic use only.

Don't forget that ATA also flew the DC-10-10 and used it to fly int LGW. This picture says that the aircraft flew in from DTW.

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

Did the L-1011-1 Tristar ever get operated transatlantically? Also, what is the difference between the L-1011-50 Tristar and L-1011-1 Tristar.

--Thrust

I heard that some of the Laker Series 10s were destined for All Nippon, but the Japanese carrier opted for the L-1011 instead. These 10s had an auxiliary fuel tank that offered them extra range (though not as much as the Series 30). The British Caledonian Series 10s were probably ex-Laker birds.

Speaking of ex-Laker birds, one very special aircraft still graces the world's skies:

View Large View Medium Photo © H.J. Yen

View Large View Medium Photo © Chris Banyai-Riepl

Delta operated L1011 500s and a variety of other series to Gatwick in the early 90's. Air Transat still have one L1011 on stand by but have retired the rest.

Range (DC-10-10) 3,300 nm (6,110 km)

According to Boeing, the D10-10 could have up to 4000nm

"Also, what is the difference between the L-1011-50 Tristar and L-1011-1 Tristar."

From http://flytristar.tripod.com/page/history.html:
The L-1011-50 was a conversion which increased the gross weight to 450,000 pounds (204,000 kg) by simply strengthening the undercarriage.

Other information on all the variants produced by conversion of original models can be found on there. I found it a bit strange that Lockheed Martin has absolutely no information on the Tristar on its website... Boeing even has information and specifications for the out-of-production former McDonnell Douglas aircraft on theirs.

Best DC-10 30 vs 40? I suppose we should all defer to NWA which retired its 40's while still keeping its 30's in service, which is significant as NWA hardly ever finds fault with P&W's!

NWA acquired it's new-build -40's in the early 70's. The -30's didn't arrive until much later, all of them second-hand with low time and in good shape (I know at least some of the -30's came from Swissair when they upgraded to the MD-11, and perhaps some from Alitalia?).

By the time they were retired, the -40's were knackered while the -30's will be around for some time until all the 330's are delivered.

I remember sitting in the back of an NWA -30 a few years back when Dasburg was still the CEO. On the customary "CEO welcome" page of the inflight mag he was bragging about how hard NWA were working for their customers, as demonstrated by their latest acquisition - more DC-10-30's! (while at the time they could have been taking delivery of A330-300's instead of waiting until last year).

KeyAir operated the -10 series on some Baltimore-Paris trips shortly before folding.

IIRC Sun Country operated either the -10 or -15 series before or after flying the -40. I'm pretty sure that they were operated on Scandinavian charters from MSP.

I flew on Air Florida on a DC-10 from LHR to MIA. I cannot tell you which version it was.
FLY2LIM