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Topic: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: N901FRWOLF
Posted 2004-07-02 23:39:37 and read 13655 times.

Well, first thing first. I got canned at Frontier. Personal difference between the IT Manger and me.

But that is not what this is about.

I applied for a CSA job with Alaska Airlines on thier website, and the last question they had in thier evaluation was "Have you used tobacco products in the last 6 months" which I answered "yes". They then informed me that I was disqualified for the position and may reapply in 6 months.

This made me a little angry, so I called up thier HR department and asked about that, and was informed that Alaska Airlines chooses to hire only non-smoking people.

This seemed Discriminatory for me so I looked up Colorado smoking laws (where the job was posted).

This is what i found:

It shall be a discriminatory or unfair employment practice for an employer to terminate the employment of any employee due to that employee engaging in any lawful activity off the premises of the employer during nonworking hours. Colorado Revised Statutes ยง24-34-402.5 (1990).

though it does say Terminate, this also can apply to hiring practices. I am bringing this up to them now (call back scheduled).

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Aa757first
Posted 2004-07-02 23:46:34 and read 13345 times.

I have a feeling there is some special exception to this, simply because all of the hiring applications most likely have to go through a lawyer before they are posted, but I really don't know.

Good luck,
AAndrew

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Jmc1975
Posted 2004-07-02 23:47:08 and read 13338 times.

Alaska Airlines wants to maintain of certain level of integrity among their employees. It's no secret that higher productivity and more consistent attendance is a benefit of hiring non-smokers. If it's a habit away from work, it can easily become a habit at work. It's not that they're being discriminatory, they are just trying to maintain somewhat higher standards.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Oly720man
Posted 2004-07-02 23:49:17 and read 13323 times.

Jeez, what next. Having a glass of beer on 4th July? Aaaaahhhhhh, alcoholic person!!!!!

Not in any way wishing to bash our transatlantic cousins, but this seems ridiculous and really should be illegal. Have the health lunatics taken over??

Does it take 6 months for tobacco to leave the body??

Andy

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Longhaulheavy
Posted 2004-07-02 23:51:50 and read 13307 times.

Breakin' the law! Breakin' the law!

Duh, duh-duh-duh, duh-duh-duh, duh-duh-duh-duh

Sorry...Beavis moment there.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: ScarletHarlot
Posted 2004-07-02 23:53:58 and read 13289 times.

I am sure you will be the first person to challenge their hiring policy. In fact, I'm quite sure Alaska started this tobacco policy without regard to its legality.

Yeah, right.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Scottb
Posted 2004-07-02 23:55:29 and read 13278 times.

The law does not apply to you, as you are not an employee. For the most part, companies can discriminate in their hiring as they choose aside from what's impermissible by law (i.e. race, age, gender, non-relevant physical handicap, marital status, etc.).

And it's a valid concern for them, given that smokers are more likely to take more sick time and more breaks for a smoke, not to mention incurring higher health care costs on average.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Russophile
Posted 2004-07-02 23:56:43 and read 13269 times.

The company is based out of Seattle (SeaTac to be precise), Washington; so the company policies are governed by the state of Washington, not Colorado.

I don't think US laws are any different to ours.

Just because the company is based in another state doesn't mean that their policies are governed under Washington State laws. Their policies have to abide by the laws of the State in which the employment is -- in this case, Colorado.

If this isn't the case, then it is moot, but I wouldn't foresee it being much different to how it is here, and most other countries in that regard.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Md80fanatic
Posted 2004-07-02 23:59:47 and read 13245 times.

Once employed the statute is completely fair. Until then though it is really their decision. Should have earned a few points for honesty.....but in today's world honesty is almost a liability, sorry to say.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: BCAInfoSys
Posted 2004-07-03 00:00:16 and read 13249 times.

The company is based out of Seattle (SeaTac to be precise), Washington; so the company policies are governed by the state of Washington, not Colorado.

I don't think US laws are any different to ours.

Just because the company is based in another state doesn't mean that their policies are governed under Washington State laws. Their policies have to abide by the laws of the State in which the employment is -- in this case, Colorado.

If this isn't the case, then it is moot, but I wouldn't foresee it being much different to how it is here, and most other countries in that regard.


I realize that AS may be governed by local laws, but I wasn't 100% sure on how those things transfer from state to state. But I thought I'd bring it up as one possibility. I'm sure AS has done their homework and are in compliance with the law. And for some little drama queen to come around and make a blanket statement like "Alaska is Breaking the Law" is just plain stupid and horomonal if you ask me. This kid needs to get his plumbing checked.. something is obviously not flowing right.  Insane

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Wedgetail737
Posted 2004-07-03 00:02:05 and read 13228 times.

I didn't think there was a law on smoking preference discrimination.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Jmy007
Posted 2004-07-03 00:02:19 and read 13225 times.

I can understand AS reasoning some what. But it does go a bit far, if its a csa position.

But say if I was a tobacco user, but quit 3 months ago, to start a new way of living, and because I was truthful on my application, I was denied a job for those reasons (tobacco user), it would seems unfair, and discriminatory.

Which makes me think, there is more to this story........

"Well, first thing first. I got canned at Frontier. Personal difference between the IT Manger and me. "

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Bostonguy
Posted 2004-07-03 00:09:12 and read 13170 times.

Well, Russophile, it is different here.

I live in Massachusetts but worked for a company based in Florida. The company chose to treat me as a Florida employee and thus I was not covered by Massachusetts labor laws (however, I did have to pay Massachusetts taxes).

Likewise, the US Supreme Court recently ruled that New York state (and thus any state) can deny unemployment benefits to a resident of that state who is employed by an out-of-state company and considered by that company to be "statused" in the company's home state.

Thus, Alaska Air can refrain from hiring smokers if the position is statused in the state of Washington and complies with the laws there.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Jc2354
Posted 2004-07-03 00:13:16 and read 13139 times.

I would check out the rules and regulations enforced by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission .

If all else fails, call the tobacco maker (Marlboro, Winston, etc). I'm positive that if anyone knew all the rules and regulations, they would certainly know.

Very interesting argument. I hope you will keep me updated.

Regards (and good luck)
Jack

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: N901FRWOLF
Posted 2004-07-03 00:13:30 and read 13140 times.

BCAInfoSys-

no injustice is injustice, and I am pursuing it though legal means as well. You were very childish in it self for calling me a whiner.

Teenage drama? Where? I was concise and to the point. No woe-is-me crap, just outrage.

And as for your Seattle comment, incorrect. Companies have to follow local laws where they are hiring. The fact they are based in Seattle is Irrelevent to the Denver hiring situation.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: USAirways737
Posted 2004-07-03 00:15:44 and read 13116 times.

It makes complete since not to hire smokers. AS pays for your benefits, therefore they have to look out for their bottom line. I'm sure their insurance provider gave them a better deal if they were to have a smoke free workforce.

Erik in MSP

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 00:18:38 and read 13108 times.

I'd love to see the end of this and maybe AS management should get off their thumbs and go down to SEA's ramp and see whats goin' on! Then they can revise this rule.

[Edited 2004-07-03 00:21:53]

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: N901FRWOLF
Posted 2004-07-03 00:28:16 and read 13080 times.

BCA, you are violating the rules and making personal attacks.
:::::
just think this kid a little immature and that would be the reasoning for his termination at F9 and for him handling this as poorly as he did.

Case in point: check his profile.

Interests: Aviation, cars, computer, games, cuties, Role Playing games (like AD&D)...umm...guys

I mean, I don't care: what, it, or who you are into, that is your business. But when you make a point of it like that, it just shows that you are really immature and don't know how to act like an adult in this world.

::::
did I say anything like (I don't know let me think of an example) my personal sexual practices in bed? No. I just listed interests. I happen to be interested in guys. The umm was mean as a little levity (as in trying to remember other things).

If you must know of Frontier(which for 2 YEARS I worked there with no problems, and several commendations for my CS skills), the IT managers wanted me to lockstep to HIS way, not just the computers, but down to taking notes on paper instead of using my PDA (which I know how my organizational skills work, I lose stuff if I write it down on paper, told him that, and he yelled at me about it.). And so I did it his way, and lost papers, and could not organise as effectively, and got yelled at for that. Any IT professional knows not everyone goes through troubleshooting steps in the same manner. That is not everything. I just put that prequel line on to let people know WHY I was applying for a job at another airline.

Your personal attack proves that you have no valid argument against this. You merely wish to feel superior by trying to make it personal. As for the title, I could not think of anything more succinct than what I used. Have a better recommendation? I will try to alter it.

to Jmy007: How can there be more to it? I JUST applied online not 2 hours ago.

[Edited 2004-07-03 00:32:08]

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Jmc1975
Posted 2004-07-03 00:55:34 and read 12990 times.

Why would Alaska want to change this rule and open the door to substandard employees that would create a bigger financial and cultural drain on the company? The rule makes perfect sense, and if you don't like it, there is no law that says you must work for Alaska.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Tcfc424
Posted 2004-07-03 00:59:26 and read 12967 times.

A lot of companies have taken to this practice, especially in Florida. I am a fire fighter, and if I were to desire employment as a fire fighter in Florida, I would have to become "tobacco free" as they do not hire tobacco users. What is the reasoning? Remember the tobacco lawsuits? People suing Marlboro and the like for cancer because they didn't read the warning labels that said "This product can cause cancer..." That is the reason. If you develop cancer during your employment or retirement, the company wants to know that if it gets sued for causing the cancer that THEY actually caused it, not Marlboro, Skoal, etc. It may not seem like a fair practice (and I don't agree with it) but I do understand it. The companies do it to protect themselves, and as long as they do it uniformly, meaning that it applies to every employee...every applicant, then it is more than likely legal. Since you are unemployed, check out the classified ads...notice EVERY dry cleaner requires non-smokers...etc.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: San2snow
Posted 2004-07-03 01:03:10 and read 12951 times.

This website talks a bit about why companies can discriminate against hiring smokers

http://ash.org/papers/h220.htm

Here is another article from Orlando that mentions that this has been brought before the US Supreme Court and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and won both time.

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2000/01/31/story3.html

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: TEKELBERRY
Posted 2004-07-03 01:03:39 and read 12944 times.

though it does say Terminate, this also can apply to hiring practices.

Says who? You can't make your own laws. It clearly states terminate. They cannot terminate you until they hire you.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 01:04:10 and read 12941 times.

I'd love to see the end of this and maybe AS management should get off their thumbs and go down to SEA's ramp and see whats goin' on! Then they can revise this rule.

Why don't you reread the post.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Greg
Posted 2004-07-03 01:07:16 and read 12924 times.

There is not really such a thing as getting fired for 'personal' differences--that would be retaliatory on the actions of your employer. Likely your behavior was insubordinate or performance subpar---anyway...you're not there.

While employers may not discriminate on based on religion, color, national origin, etc....they CAN discriminate on education, qualifications, common sense, and chose those employees who best fit their criteria for maintaining a a healthy company (as long as the former are not infringed).

Companies can, and do discriminate against smokers. I applaud them for this effort.

If you want to smoke, go work for Phillip Morris.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 01:10:36 and read 12910 times.

Too bad they couldn't see the AS employee with a cigarette in his mouth while pulling up the push-back to flight 21 on 6.28.2004.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Aa757first
Posted 2004-07-03 01:25:00 and read 12870 times.

If you created a fuss about this, even though you might get the job, everyone there will dislike you, most likely, and your work will be very unpleasant. I think ATA might be hiring in DEN...

AAndrew

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: TEKELBERRY
Posted 2004-07-03 01:37:03 and read 12827 times.

Why don't you just move on and look for another job?

The following airlines are taking applications at Denver.

AirTran -- http://www.airtran.com/aboutus/employ/custServProf.jsp
American -- http://aacareers.com/
Great Lakes -- http://www.greatlakesav.com/html/current_jobs.html
JetBlue -- http://www.jetblue.com/workhere/index.aspx

[Edited 2004-07-03 01:41:31]

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Jmc1975
Posted 2004-07-03 01:48:30 and read 12783 times.

Another thing....a cutting-edge forward-thinking airline like jetBlue or even AirTran won't be looking for people of your caliber. Your thread made your personality quite transparent. Even at American, you'll find their senior employees will not have tolerance for you...something you could call "differences". Great Lakes is a much smaller workgroup and your true self will be discovered far more quickly.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: N757kw
Posted 2004-07-03 02:07:08 and read 12715 times.

I would be curios to know the actual reason behind this requirement. If I had to hazard a guess, I think it has more to do with Insurance costs more than anything else. A smoker might have more insurance claims than a non-smoker, in the long run costing the Insurance company, airline, and employ more money.

N757KW

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2004-07-03 02:11:58 and read 12696 times.

I work in NYC, where you cannot smoke tobacco products anyplace but your personal residence or outside of a building. This includes no smoking in bars, clubs, resturants which used to let you smoke there. Remember you used to be able to smoke on aircraft many years ago. Now, there are only a few airlines or their countries that allow smoking in flight. Almost all airports in the USA don't allow smoking in any indoor facility. I do not smoke, never did, but with the exception of some jobs where other hazards exist (firefighter, police, manufacturing of products that may harm the lungs), if you smoke away from the job, then it's none of the employer's business. You may have to pay more for life and health insurance with some employers if you are a smoker. According to the link, there are numerous laws and court decisions that allow denial of employment or termination because of smoking. Is it fair? In many ways not, but then again, life isn't always fair. Better find an IT job in another field where smoking off-duty isn't a problem.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Ha763
Posted 2004-07-03 02:27:29 and read 12660 times.

If there are employees smoking on the ramp, I would warn everyone that smoking is not allowed on the ramp and if caught there will be consequences. Then if I catch someone smoking on the ramp, I would at the least suspend them.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: L-188
Posted 2004-07-03 02:35:45 and read 12641 times.

Alaska Airlines wants to maintain of certain level of integrity among their employees. It's no secret that higher productivity and more consistent attendance is a benefit of hiring non-smokers.

Bull, this is about lower insurance premuims for the company, that is all.

They had this rule back in 94 when I worked there. Everybody that was working there when the rule came into being was grandfathered in.

Note the law applied to current employee's, the question is legit for screening purposes.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Nearord
Posted 2004-07-03 02:39:03 and read 12633 times.

I think that the line about it costing more for insurance is funny.

They should then also ask if you have eaten fast food in the last 6 months, whether you have been to a gym in the last 6 months, if you are HIV positive, If you are overweight, If you have any diseases that might make you more expensive, if you run 3 times a week, if you are taking any medications, ect ect.

Can you imagine the lawsuit they would face if they said, "we are not hiring any employees over 200 pounds, because they cost us more in insurance." Or what about, We won't hire anyone with diabities because they cost more.

I think they have a right to hire anyone they see fit, however, once hired, what then? They can't fire you if you start after you have been hired. I think the best answer would be to charge more for insurance for employees that do smoke. That way, it doesn't cost the company anymore.

I just find it funny that in an industry where a large percentage of employees eat fast food regularly, they complain about smokers.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: FlyCaledonian
Posted 2004-07-03 02:47:09 and read 12612 times.

So you wanted to use your PDA to take notes, etc, instead of paper. Maybe they want them on paper so they can be filed away with other documents, something you can't do with a PDA. Where I work we have to conform to consistent standards, as most companies expect. Your lack of disorganisation is your responsability to resolve, not your employerers. If you worked for me, and continued to refuse to conform to what was asked of you that would constitute refusing to follow a reasonable request, resulting in disciplinary proceedings. Failure after those to follow would be constituted as gross misconduct, which could lead to dismissal. I prefer using computers for keeping records, but where I have to use paper to suit the company requirements I do. End of. Take that chip off your shoulder and move on. You might get somewhere. Or are you planning to sue for breach of human rights?

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Md80fanatic
Posted 2004-07-03 02:48:41 and read 12608 times.

As a private company, Alaska can choose whoever they wish to hire for whatever reasons they can fathom. I mean, it's THEIR company....not a federal or state institution. If it were MY company I would insist upon having the final call, period! Either that or I'm moving my operation to Europe/Asia. Telling a private company what they can and cannot do is not freedom.

Two years ago and for 22 years previous I was a 2 pack a day Marlboro/Winston smoker. I quit cold turkey with no gum, no injections or patches. YES it was hard but I was determined to not let ANYTHING control me....afterall I spent 16 years as a happy healthy youth with absolutely zero desire for a cigarette, so what's the big deal? That's over $2,800 dollars I have saved so far without cigs....imagine that!!!! It's like getting a raise or something.....

Peace!

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2004-07-03 03:05:36 and read 12572 times.

In Colorado, according to GASP of Colorado, it is legal for an employer to not hire a smoker. Their website says:

Questions About Colorado's "Smokers' Rights" Law
Question: Is it legal to refuse to hire smokers?
Answer: Yes, says the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission -- unless the result is discrimination on the basis of national origin, race, sex, and age (Wall Street Journal, April 1982). Smoking is an acquired characteristic. Employers may refuse to hire people based on acquired characteristics such as job record, education, performance, absenteeism, drug/alcohol use, etc.

Question: May a business hire only nonsmokers?
Answer: Businesses may continue to hire and advertise for nonsmokers. Many employers continue to do so as evidenced by the various want ads for "nonsmokers only" in newspapers. Businesses may also have a policy that states they hire only nonsmokers.


http://www.gaspforair.org/gasp/gedc/artcl-new.php?ID=99

That page also says someone can be fired if they lied about being a nonsmoker.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 03:19:25 and read 12539 times.

If there are employees smoking on the ramp, I would warn everyone that smoking is not allowed on the ramp and if caught there will be consequences. Then if I catch someone smoking on the ramp, I would at the least suspend them.

But they say on their page that they will terminate anyone who uses tobacco.

It clearly states terminate

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Scottb
Posted 2004-07-03 03:55:12 and read 12467 times.

Companies can also fire you for being untruthful on an employment application; for example, if you were to falsely say that you hadn't used tobacco in the past six months.

In any case, the title of this thread is potentially libelous since it is stated as an exclamation.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Oznznut
Posted 2004-07-03 04:19:13 and read 12400 times.

As I was nearing graduation from Cochise College and obtaining my A & P ticket I started to fill out an application for Alaska Airlines. Right on the front page it said that if you used tobacco products in any form, do not apply. Makes sense to me. They are trying to keep down their health care costs, keep the aircraft cleaner, reduce "secondhand smoke" lawsuits, etc. They are not being discriminatory. It is a condition of employment. You may believe that it is your right to smoke. So be it. It is their right not to hire you. I do think that it would be another animal if you were hired, and then they said that you weren't permitted to use tobacco. That could be a problem.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Antares
Posted 2004-07-03 05:14:03 and read 12141 times.

Goodness me. When I saw the topic I thought it about not lubricating jack screws on MD-80s or having pilot standards sufficiently high to ensure that no member of a cockpit crew could fail to notice if a beacon was missed approaching Juneau
in poor visibility. But good to know Alaskan has set its sights on something more vital, concerning employee free time.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Airlinelover
Posted 2004-07-03 05:27:27 and read 12063 times.

What have we all learned from this post:

STOP SMOKING!!!!!!!

Chris

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2004-07-03 05:48:21 and read 11946 times.

Ok let me clairify about what AS drug-free policy is really about:

When you apply with AS, they WILL ask you if you have used nicotine products within the last 6 months. More than likely people will say no just so that they can get hired. I might add that they are very, very, very picky on who they hire, just like WN.

When I was hired on with AS back in 1998, they have asked me a few times to make sure that I am not a nicotine user. For this reason, I didnt know why at the time but I found it pretty strange. Honestly, I am not a nicotine user. The term 'nicotine' in AS terms includes the following: Ciggarettes, cigars, chew or any tobacco related products.

Anyway, shortly after I was hired, the MX department heads had a meeting with all 3 shifts about the no smoking policy on hangar grounds and about the 'contract' you signed when hired to not smoke on property. Alot of mechanics objected to the rule and didnt see why it was a bothersome problem with the company. The whole idea was to LOWER INSURANCE PREMIUMS and LIABILITY prevention. AS does not want to be liable for 'injuries' related to smoking on their property. Now, this is a very sensitive topic at AS HQ and around the company. There are more to it than just that when it comes to that issue which I do not know and could care less.

Ive never seen AS take action against an AS employee for smoking on AS property or around the Port of Seattle. But I do know that the Port of Seattle has a strict no smoking policy on the ramps. (Does anyone follow that rule or does the POS Police enforce it...guess not...)

The point is, its AS policy regardless. They dont even have to hire you and its not even discrimination either. Its their policy, plain and simple. They can do whatever they want, its their airline.

Oh, I might even point out. Go to their corporate office and you'll see etched on their front doors a disclaimer that states: "Notice to applicants: We hire only nicotine free applicants, if you have used nicotine products within the last 6 months, we are not interested in you."

Don't be surprised at this, everyone working at AS knows about this disclaimer. Its nothing new.

So is AS breaking the law? No, they are well within their rights. Its their airline. If they feel that it disrupts their business, they have the right to enforce that rule. Like I said, its a very sensitive issue at AS.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: United4everDEN
Posted 2004-07-03 06:26:15 and read 11785 times.

I certainly am not going to hire anyone who might smell like tobacco or someone who cannot smoke during work and it ends up taking their mind off work. I think smoking is disgusting, why don't you try quiting? You are not only putting your health at risk, you are putting others' at risk too.

Topic: AS Is Breaking The LAW!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 06:30:39 and read 11762 times.

Thanks for the clarification AirframeAS. Too bad I live so far from Chicago or Seattle (Southcentral Wisconsin), or I'd apply for AS. I've never smoked or done 'chew'.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: FullThrottle
Posted 2004-07-03 06:39:41 and read 11707 times.

As an AS intern I got checked 2 weeks ago on my first day for 5 drugs (weed, cocaine, meth, ect...) alcohol and Nicotine. That is no problem for me and I have no problem with out having smokers around.
AS cares about the employees and it is good that they don't allow smoking. It is a fact: non-smokers live longer than smokers.
That is my.02 on the subject. Take care.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2004-07-03 06:45:54 and read 11683 times.

I also wanted to add something that FullThrottle reminded me about:

AS wants to be sure that they can get many years of service from their employees. Thats another reason why AS has that policy. I just forgot to add that.

Smcmac32msn: Yer welcome  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: AS Policy
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 06:55:01 and read 11647 times.

I wish our company (Wisconsin Aviation) would adopt that policy...... just to on the grounds, not so much personal life, but on the clock - no smoking! Would make my life a lot easier, tryin' to park 3 planes while 5 ppl are out smokin their lives away.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: OptionsCLE
Posted 2004-07-03 07:27:09 and read 11530 times.

Smcmac32msn,

Amen! I work for Corporate Wings in Cleveland and let me tell you, it can get busy sometimes just because a bunch of guys decided to go smoke and leave the work to the rest of us. Our company is soon to adopt a no-chewing policy, and next should be a complete no-smoking policy as well. It's a step in the right direction if you ask me. No smelly employees and you get about an extra 1/4-1/2 man hour out of each smoking employee per day, that adds up!

-Andrew

Topic: AS Is Breaking The LAW!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 07:32:59 and read 11513 times.

OptionsCLE - Yes it does add up. 1/4 x 10 (days/pay period) = 2.5 hours. Is Corporate Wings at Burke Lakefront or is it at the same place that CO flys out of?

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines May Not Be Breaking The Law
Username: N901FRWOLF
Posted 2004-07-03 07:33:51 and read 11521 times.

Well.

To those who gave interesting, informed answers, and pointed out my error, thank you. And the person who posted the AA, B6, ATA job postings, thank you as well.

For you who thought it was good to get on your soapbox and make personal attacks, I can only laugh. Got angry at first, but then just laughed.

BTW Fly Caledonian, if you finished reading, I DID as he asked finally and did paper and pencil. And no, he didn't WANT the papers for his reference, he just wanted me doing notes his way. Again, please finish reading.

FATFlyer, the statute I quoted supercedes GASP's (an anti-smoking group) page, for they do not state where it asks on the FEDERAL level, where it is legal, but on the STATE level. To quote thier page:

---
Answer: Yes, says the federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
---

I am well aware on the federal level it is legal, hence why they can do it in Washington, becuase WA does not have a law that says otherwise. However, Colorado has the "smokers right" law.


That being said, as the starter of this thread, I think one day was sufficent, and we should discontinue it.

Again, for those that answered with logical, thoughtful answers pertaining to the law and possible happenings, Thank you.

For you that resorted to (not limited, but including) looking in my profile and stretching out to make personal attacks? I am laughing, and suggested your post for deletion.

Good day

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: M404
Posted 2004-07-03 07:55:51 and read 11443 times.

Airlines usually do not hire someone only to work in one spot. They must be able to move around the system as the market dictates. Unless this is a temporary position I would have to go with the above.

If the rules that apply at one station do not apply at another station it would be chaos. As an example, they could not hire you under different rules than someone else. That's called discrimination. If I were you I would investigate the rules of the state where they are incorporated or where the General Office is and not where you want to work for them. You cannot make a blanket statement like "though it does say Terminate, this also can apply to hiring practices." until you know this to be a fact and not your own assumption.

In fairness I have not heard of smoking being a job disqualifier. Perhaps like the insurance companies charging higher premiums for those engaging in dangerous sports that would otherwise make it more expensive for everyone else to have that coverage, they can somehow apply the same logic to themselves to avoid those who do entirely. Illogical maybe, illegal, ask a lawyer.

But until you find out all those facts I would request a change in thread heading and substitute a question mark for your exclamation point just to make sure those lawyers are friendly.

[Edited 2004-07-03 08:05:23]

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2004-07-03 08:41:07 and read 11318 times.

Colorado Applicants:

You gotta remember AS has adopted this policy years and years ago. AS has never had a problem with this legally. This isn't a new thing. You might want to go to the DEN tix counter and ask them what the actually policy is for Colorado applicants. I dont know if AS has their own people in DEN, but I do know that AS does NOT have their own people in ORD.

Go to DEN and ask what the qualifications are.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: HikesWithEyes
Posted 2004-07-03 09:52:10 and read 11162 times.

Whoever was driving the pushback tug for flt 21
was not an Alaska employee. 21 originates in
ORD and ASA is groundhandled by AA there.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: BigB
Posted 2004-07-03 10:03:06 and read 11139 times.

This is likely due to insurance reason

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Btv92
Posted 2004-07-03 10:20:45 and read 11103 times.

Hello Marcus,Good luck with the job search,I'm sure you'll find something that suits you well,and by the way,you're not the only one who enjoys "cuties". I absolutely have to congratulate MD80fanatic on cold turkey tobacco cessation after 20 years at 2 packs a day.You are a man of integrity! Speaking from a medical background,laboratory experiments with mice have shown heroin is easier to give up than nicotine,probably the most addictive drug in the world.And we buy it over the counter at the local store everyday(some of us at least).Almost $5 a pack in VT now! Cheers and take good care,Tim

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Flashmeister
Posted 2004-07-03 10:51:38 and read 11042 times.

Even if they were forced to hire you, Marcus, you have to wonder if you'd really like to work in such a tobacco-hostile place if you're a smoker. I smoke, and a number of coworkers do, but I could quit during the day if the job was worth it.

My company has set a policy that it's not going to meddle in our off-hours lives. We're not screened, etc., but the first time that anyone shows up that even remotely looks intoxicated, they're gone in a flash. No question. Our take is that we're adults and that our employees can be trusted to manage their affairs and take the company's best interest into consideration.

If my firm started ridiculous rules that interfered with my off-work time or invaded my privacy, from my perspective, I'd walk and not even bother with the argument. Even if I won, they'd have still made it clear that their intention is to meddle where I don't want them, so why stay?

Better off just finding another carrier... and good luck! Next time I'm in DEN, let's have a smoke and watch the, ummm, guys  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: Pre-flight Supper
Username: Sevenair
Posted 2004-07-03 11:01:42 and read 11011 times.

thats strange-sonsideering how blase they are about maintainence-which caused the crash of LAX-a lack of grease-and, you would also be sacked if you questioned the operating procedures on the aircraft. Alaska was also accused of other maintenancec flaws-so, I think Alaska should concentrate on whats important!!!

Topic: AS Breaking The LAW!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 16:11:42 and read 10449 times.

My bad on the 21 thing. It was a long week and I must have had something else on my mind..... I meant flight 22.

Topic: AS Breaking The LAW
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 18:05:16 and read 10099 times.

According to a lawyer friend, what AS is doing is completely legal. Federal law says you can put reasonable exceptions on your employees. Ex: No riding motorcycles (A LOT of MLB players), No smoking (AS & Several others), etc. And since the application is for a job in Colorado, the hiring laws would be for Colorado not Washington. But federal law supercedes state law in this instance.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Flyboyaz
Posted 2004-07-03 18:33:53 and read 10009 times.

I can understand their view completely...however I disagree with it. I applied with AS a few years ago and got an interview. They asked me if I smoked and I said no and also asked them why they were asking. The interviewer told me they do not hire "smokers". I asked why and she really didn't have a good answer. So I told her I disagreed with the policy..and obviously that ended the interview pretty quick!...hehe. I was looking more for the response of the employee...and she wasn't clear on the policy. That really discouraged me from working there.

I know I read on their website the no smoking rule was not valid for Nevada and another state. They must not be allowed to put in the policy in all states.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Cessna172RG
Posted 2004-07-03 18:41:17 and read 9972 times.

"And it's a valid concern for them, given that smokers are more likely to take more sick time and more breaks for a smoke, not to mention incurring higher health care costs on average."

I am a heavy cigar smoker, and currently I work overseas and I never take smoking breaks. I smoke at home or on the weekends. If I get cravings, I use the Japanese version of Niccorette, a tobacco gum imported from Sweeden. I have friends here who smoke, but don't take any extra breaks to smoke, nor do they take extra sick time. Nor do I. So, I interpret this statement as an overly broad generalization, with all due respect.

So, I'm a bit confused by this statement.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Connector4you
Posted 2004-07-03 20:11:02 and read 9649 times.

...It's no secret that higher productivity and more consistent attendance is a benefit of hiring non-smokers...

Why not going for even a higher standard and hire only people who don't drink alcohol? Pretty sure they are all highly productive and won't miss work! Remember ...If it's a habit away from work, it can easily become a habit at work...

...It's not that they're being discriminatory, they are just trying to maintain somewhat higher standards...
Sorry, to me that's discrimination and I'm surprised seeing Alaska getting away with it even in Canada!





Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2004-07-03 20:38:00 and read 9510 times.

The bottom line is there are certain statuses that are privileged in the United States, and other than those explicitly itemized they can hire or fire you for any reason they see fit.

There are many factors. Statistics prove smokers miss more work days, and do cost the company much higher insurance premiums. They are on solid ground with their choices to not hire or employ smokers.

And to clarify, yes they can not hire you, and yes they can fire you at any time for smoking if that's their policy and you are aware of it.

N

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: SlamClick
Posted 2004-07-03 20:52:07 and read 9441 times.

Antares just a word of advice, as you seem to be new here. Even the cheap shot has certain minimum standards.

Your post: "When I saw the topic I thought it about not lubricating jack screws on MD-80s or having pilot standards sufficiently high to ensure that no member of a cockpit crew could fail to notice if a beacon was missed approaching Juneau in poor visibility. But good to know Alaskan has set its sights on something more vital, concerning employee free time." falls short on quality.

First some facts: The AS 261 accident investigation looked into using two different and incompatible lubricants on the jackscrew. No one ever suggested that it had not been lubricated at all.

Also, some things done on "employee free time" are the legitimate concern, and very much the business of the employer.

Drinking and drug use are both obvious examples. If a person drinks, which is legal, on their own time, it will never become a problem unless they are still "under the influence" when they report for work. It can be argued that merely hung over is "under the influence" and that a lifetime of alcohol abuse does degrade job performance even if nothing is ever consumed on the premises or during work hours. Drug use - ditto, plus the added risks of a criminal act costing the company their investment in training etc.

So, on to tobacco use. No reasonable person would argue that cigarette smoking causes enormous medical expense after a few years. Insurance companies are for-profit and charge premiums based almost entirely on what their actuaries tell them are the risks of payouts. Cigarette smokers in particular are a burden on insurance companies that those of us who do not have this suicidal habit must ultimately bear.

As Federal law prohibits their discrimination against persons with congenital conditions that will, ultimately have an impact on the health insurance plane, they must trim where they can. It would be unfair to discriminate against the diabetic. Avoiding the tobacco users, who are volunteers all, is just good business.

BTW there is no "N" in Alaska


Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: MidnightMike
Posted 2004-07-03 20:56:00 and read 9416 times.


Dude

You are wrong cigarette smoking is not covered the by equal rights act, a company can consider you ineligible for employment for smoking and drinking if they elect to. You can speak with a lawyer if you wish, but, Alaska has the choice to deny you employment based on your smoking habit. Consider it a good luck omen, quite smoking & apply again in 6 months, this is a way for Alaska airlines to keep its health cost low, GOOD LUCK!

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-03 21:06:09 and read 9367 times.

According to a lawyer friend, what AS is doing is completely legal. Federal law says you can put reasonable exceptions on your employees. Ex: No riding motorcycles (A LOT of MLB players), No smoking (AS & Several others), etc. And since the application is for a job in Colorado, the hiring laws would be for Colorado not Washington. But federal law supercedes state law in this instance.

Guess nobody read Reply: 59.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: NWADC9
Posted 2004-07-03 21:34:21 and read 9267 times.



just my 2 cents

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirplaneBoy
Posted 2004-07-04 02:32:11 and read 8808 times.

Hi everyone!

Interesting discussion here.

What about someone who has a bad liver from drinking too much (though I wonder if AS would investigate why an applicant has a bad liver).

Hehe...I don't know. I think AS is an awesome company, but as an addicted smoker myself, I think that singling out smokers is not completely fair. What we do on our own time is our business. It would be like saying that a person who is of large stature (heavily overweight) cannot be as productive as someone who is slender and athletic (however one would define 'athletic'). I can kind of see how their policy comes into play and how it saves the company money, but then again- one could argue that those who drink excessively on their off days are damaging their livers, and thus putting AS at risk of having to provide more in insurance.

The way I see this is if you cut one group off, all the rest should be too. One group should not be singled out. And yes, smoking is voluntary (though it become EXTREMELY addictive), but isn't it a bit much to single out one group? All of the drinkers and fast food eaters (voluntary) should also be subject to harming their bodies and cutting their lives short. Those Chee-tos and Doritos (with extra cheese) lovers should also be reconsidered. After all, high cholestorol can cause heart disease as well.....and possibly----- a heart attack on the job!

J/K

Okay....Seriously, I'm not making fun of anyone. I love fast food, Chee-tos & Doritos and I enjoy my cigarette breaks when I'm stressed (although I do not drink alcohol).

Why only smokers? There are many others who voluntarily harm their bodies as well, but are allowed to pursue a career at AS.

Despite my smoking, I am still able to deliver excellent customer service with a smile AND enjoy a nice cigarette during my scheduled break after our morning rush. Are AS employees ever tested for nicotine use anytime after being employed?

Hey Marcus....I'm sad to hear you're leaving. I'm sorry to hear what happened. I guess I can't visit you in IT anymore, but you know where I'm at. I wish you the best and keep me posted on what fortunes you discover. Keep your chin up buddy....you'll get something good again!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Wassup Flashmeister? Long time no chat. How's everything going?

Happy flying everyone!

Travis/LAX Big grin

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AgnusBymaster
Posted 2004-07-04 02:49:44 and read 8785 times.

In order to work for Alaska Airlines, you must have not used nicotine-products during the past 6 months. After you are hired, you can go right back to smoking if the health consequences don't bother you.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Ltbewr
Posted 2004-07-04 05:10:48 and read 8704 times.

My second post on this issue, and I want to note another possible reason for their strict anti-tobacco policy. If I am correct, and from a topic a few months ago, Alaska puts prayer cards with their meals packages don't they? Could the top owners or managers be active, dedicated Christians? Perhaps many are Mormans (Church of Latter-day Saints) whom prohibit the use of tobacco, alcohol, illegal drugs and caffene by members of their faith. This may explain their policies on these matters.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2004-07-04 08:43:51 and read 8641 times.

According to a lawyer friend, what AS is doing is completely legal.

Thats totally correct. And again, its their right. Im sure the folks at AS who are in the legal department did their homework before enforcing this rule long before it ever took effect. I dont recall any lawsuits brought against AS for thsi rule and the company ever losing a lawsuit. If AS lost a lawsuit in this, the rule would have been gone.....long ago.

thats strange-sonsideering how blase they are about maintainence-which caused the crash of LAX-a lack of grease-and, you would also be sacked if you questioned the operating procedures on the aircraft. Alaska was also accused of other maintenancec flaws-so, I think Alaska should concentrate on whats important!!!

I say.....what an very ignorant statement. Totally wrong. Sorry but no points for this one....I cant even respond to this. Get a clue and get your facts right! BTW, the crash was not 'of LAX' as you put it.... I'll let you figure this out for yourself.

What about someone who has a bad liver from drinking too much (though I wonder if AS would investigate why an applicant has a bad liver).

We are talking about the current topic: AS no-smoking policy. What does drinking have to do with this policy? None whatsoever.

Drink while on the job or show up drunk then Im pretty sure (100% sure as a matter of fact...) that a supervisor or department manager would have a HUGE HUGE  Smile/happy/getting dizzy smile on his face and have no problem terminating your employment. I can recall one incident at AS this has happened and the dude terminated his employment before the managers could terminate him. And oh! You are replaceable, by the way. They have people on a waiting list who are intersted in working for AS and they can hire that person to replace you.

Despite my smoking, I am still able to deliver excellent customer service with a smile AND enjoy a nice cigarette during my scheduled break after our morning rush...

Okay, fair statement. But do your customers/co-workers appreciate the smoke smell that emits off your uniform when you return from your break and continues to smell like that throughout the rest of the day? I dont think so. But thats something different. Im not saying you can/cannot smoke but if you want to keep employment with your company...better do what they want or its your job you'll lose.

AS wants you working, not taking excessive breaks. (Im not saying you took an excessive break, its just an example...) They dont pay you to smoke on their property. If they want to restrict how much time you are allowed to take a break, they can. If they say you only get 10 minutes per U.S. law then you take ONLY 10 minutes, not 11 minutes. They can fire you or write you up for being 1 minute late returning to work from a break time. If you want to smoke, go off the property onto the street's sidewalk. Ive been grilled about the excessive break issue at AS before and I respected that rule after that. They told me the same quote: "AS wants you working, not taking breaks. Taking a break is an convinence provided to you by the company." But its also the law.

Why only smokers? There are many others who voluntarily harm their bodies as well, but are allowed to pursue a career at AS.

Its simple: AS wants as many years of service out of you as it can get. They dont want you taking too many sick days as a result of smoking and the like. I mean, think about it. If it was your company and you saw employees taking sick days just because they smoked....how would you feel if your employees took advantage of your sick leave payouts?? Same thing.

Are AS employees ever tested for nicotine use anytime after being employed?

To my knowledge....no. But if you are found smoking on their property, you can find your employment terminated without warning at any time. Ive never seen anyone get terminated at AS because of one's smoking, but Ive seen the managers see their employees smoke on the property. Its a totally confusing issue. Remember: Its AS CORPORATE'S policy, not department policy.

After you are hired, you can go right back to smoking if the health consequences don't bother you.

Had a friend at AS who did that...it was pretty funny.

...Alaska puts prayer cards with their meals packages don't they?

Yes, but they shortly stopped doing that after 9/11 to cut costs. I dont know if they do it now or not.

Could the top owners or managers be active, dedicated Christians?

John F. Kelly, the ex-AS CEO is a catholic. His wife was the one who requested those prayer cards on each meal. His wife also was the one who designed and decided the style for the current AS uniforms.

Perhaps many are Mormans (Church of Latter-day Saints) whom prohibit the use of tobacco, alcohol, illegal drugs and caffene by members of their faith. This may explain their policies on these matters.

From what Ive heard..pretty much rumor-wise, this policy was enacted way before AS put those cards on the meals.


[Edited 2004-07-04 08:55:37]

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AgnusBymaster
Posted 2004-07-05 01:38:16 and read 8454 times.

The prayer cards have been around for a very long time. And they are still on the meal trays as of last week. I don't know who's responsible for putting them there, but I'll bet Kennedy or Kelly had something to do with it.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-05 01:44:48 and read 8462 times.

Alaska puts prayer cards with their meals packages don't they?

I just got back from my trip to BOI (ORD-SEA-BOI-SEA-ORD) and on flights 21 & 22 there were prayer cards with the meal packages. BTW, my compliments to the chef on the Teriyaki Chicken & Rice on 6/28/2004 for flight 21. Best meal I'd had in a long time!

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2004-07-05 04:27:48 and read 8389 times.

BTW, my compliments to the chef on the Teriyaki Chicken & Rice on 6/28/2004 for flight 21.

Im sure LSG SkyChefs would love to hear from you! LOL! just kidding  Big thumbs up

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-05 05:12:19 and read 8356 times.

AirframeAS - Do you have a website for them, or e-mail address?

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2004-07-05 10:35:50 and read 8298 times.

No I dont actually. I'll find out from my HP buddies who are overseeing security for HP at their PHX LSG facility.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-06 21:32:43 and read 8052 times.

AirframeAS- Thanks! BTW... I had a great time flying AS and if I ever need to go out west again, I'll be sure to look them up again! SEA is a decent airport and quick to navigate. Loved seeing the 747's at the South Satellite. Especially the EVA Air 47!

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: UAlonghaul
Posted 2004-07-06 21:59:47 and read 8022 times.

"no injustice is injustice, and I am pursuing it though legal means as well. You were very childish in it self for calling me a whiner.

Teenage drama? Where? I was concise and to the point. No woe-is-me crap, just outrage.

And as for your Seattle comment, incorrect. Companies have to follow local laws where they are hiring. The fact they are based in Seattle is irrelevant to the Denver hiring situation."


You honestly think you would even be considered for any position if you take legal action agent Alaska air? You seem like a liability, no one likes someone who complains about everything. I am not attempting to offend you or anyone else, I am just saying from a managers point of view an employee who is critical of things he is not responsible for is not one anyone wants around. A time and a place exists for challenging the system and it's ways, but when attempting to gain employment for a low level position in any organization is not the time or the place to threaten legal action. Alaska Air has a few more lawyers and a little more capital than you do, so I would not expect to make any friends or even be remotely close to gaining employment or winning your case.

I would do more research into the locality laws. If you are being hired by Alaska Air of Washington state, you may very well receive paychecks from the home office and must pay certain taxes and fees based on that. I would not assume that because you WISH you were hired in CO you would be subject to all the local laws and statutes.

You must look at yourself in the mirror and evaluate what you are doing. Pursuing legal means for a employment method (which they are in no way committing any crime in choosing not to hire based on tobacco use) is not something I would recommend anyone doing. You are not a high level manager in the company, as it sounds like you are applying for a low level entry position position after a previous experience of talking out of turn and getting fired for it. Be very very careful with what fights you pick and with whom. Do not assume that all of this will stay between you and the airline as well, things like this are passed on to future employers, and you may very well not be hired in the future for your choice in pissing off a large company.

The time to fight against moral injustice is not when you are applying for a low level position.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Jake056
Posted 2004-07-06 22:43:26 and read 7954 times.

A company has complete autonomy is choosing its employees. It is perfectly legal to hire only non-smokers. The only exception is if the prosprective employee falls into one of the protected categories. It shall be unlawful for any employeer to discriminate in hiring based on a persons age, sex, race, religion, physical handicap, national origin, etc. Then a prospective employer can be sued for discriminatory practices.

The Colorado statute has no bearing on YOUR situation since you are not an employee. The statute as drafted only applies to actual, current employees.
You can complain to human resources that you think their employment practices are unfair, but that is about it. You could not bring a civil suit in either state or federal court based on sec. 24-34-402.5 of the Colorado Revised Statutes.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: 7E72004
Posted 2004-07-06 22:45:11 and read 7947 times.

"Breaking the law...breaking the law..."  Big thumbs up

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-06 23:29:11 and read 7870 times.

A company has complete autonomy is choosing its employees. It is perfectly legal to hire only non-smokers. The only exception is if the prosprective employee falls into one of the protected categories. It shall be unlawful for any employeer to discriminate in hiring based on a persons age, sex, race, religion, physical handicap, national origin, etc. Then a prospective employer can be sued for discriminatory practices.

So your saying if I'm a caucasian, male, age 25, christian, smoker... I'm screwed, huh?

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Jake056
Posted 2004-07-07 03:36:49 and read 7782 times.

If the company doesn't hire you because you're caucasian, THEY'RE screwed because that is prohibited discrimination. If they don't hire you because of your age (with exceptions such as pilots not being over a certain age), THEY'RE screwed, because that is prohibited discrimination. If the company doesn't hire you because you are a christian, THEY'RE screwed, because that is prohibited discrimination. If they don't hire you because you are male, THEY'RE screwed, because that is prohibited discrimination. But if they don't hire you because you are a smoker, then YOU are screwed, because smokers are not in a protected class, and it is perfectly legal for a company to have that as a policy and not hire you.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2004-07-07 03:47:34 and read 7765 times.

>>>Perhaps many are Mormans (Church of Latter-day Saints)

1/ "Mormons"

2/ "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

 Smile

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Fredmoss
Posted 2004-07-07 09:22:56 and read 7686 times.

It's a sad, but true, fact that, in today's world, you're much more likely to find people who would stick up for a terrorist suicide bomber, than for a smoker.

Welcome to the ranks of the unwanted and unloved. As the man said above, "If you want to smoke, go work for Phillip Morris"

P.S. I don't smoke, and never have, but I don't see why people should have to stand in the rain to do it

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Slider
Posted 2004-07-07 16:34:14 and read 7611 times.

My own personal opinions aside about smoking and such, I have some really strong mixed feelings about this matter.

On one hand, the libertarian sensibilities I possess tell me that any organization has any right to hire whomever they choose and for whatever reason. Freedom of Association is protected by the Constitution.

However, the dilemma really occurs in what is the distinction between association and discrimination?

Based on the links provided above, AS is protected under law to not hire smokers because it is "acquired." By that same definition, so is HIV/AIDS. Can they include that in a pre-employment survey as well? Again, not to open a huge can of worms, but there are some pretty heavy questions to address in the process...

I am a huge advocate of freedom of association, but also of right to privacy. If I choose to smoke, that's my decision. Then companies need to make the correction for the higher insurance costs on the back-end, not categorically exclude a group of people solely based on that. To what degree can one weigh a "victimless" crime?

Lot of very thought provoking questions here...I won't digress too much given that this is an aviation forum.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2004-07-08 16:38:52 and read 7438 times.

"no injustice is injustice, and I am pursuing it though legal means as well. You were very childish in it self for calling me a whiner..."

Let me tell ya somethin' here.... If you slap a lawsuit on AS, I gaurentee that it will get dismissed right before you can even say the first word your opening statement in a court of law. I tell ya, you do this, you waste your own time. What AS does is perfectly legal. If it was not legal, AS wouldn't of had this policy put into place in the first place. No wonder why AS never had any problems with this policy and get this: They've never been sued or taken to court over the policy. But I can say that it has been challenged outside of the legal arena. So dont make yourself look like a damn fool.

You can complain to human resources that you think their employment practices are unfair, but that is about it.

Thats all you can do...nuff said.

Remember, AS is not government owned. It is an airline operation being operated entirely on its own. If AS was government owned, then this would probably be a different situation and Im sure you would agree. If you can't get past this policy and disagree with it, my suggestion is to walk the other way and go apply to another airline elsewhere.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Smcmac32msn
Posted 2004-07-08 19:25:01 and read 7352 times.

If the company doesn't hire you because you're caucasian, THEY'RE screwed because that is prohibited discrimination. If they don't hire you because of your age (with exceptions such as pilots not being over a certain age), THEY'RE screwed, because that is prohibited discrimination. If the company doesn't hire you because you are a christian, THEY'RE screwed, because that is prohibited discrimination. If they don't hire you because you are male, THEY'RE screwed, because that is prohibited discrimination. But if they don't hire you because you are a smoker, then YOU are screwed, because smokers are not in a protected class, and it is perfectly legal for a company to have that as a policy and not hire you.

Actually this post is completely wrong. I've been picked over for a LESS qualified American Indian female that was 23 years old because of her being American Indian and female....... thats the way the system works, and its designed that way.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: Coronado990
Posted 2004-07-08 19:41:08 and read 7319 times.

My pet peeve...Hippocrates. And I am going to take a shot a being one because I love airplanes. Here it goes...As long as AS is allowed by the government to fly and land their noisy and polluting jets over our city, I do not think AS is in any position to say a cigarette is dangerous to your health. One jet taking off pollutes the health of thousands just as much as a cigarette. I have smelled the jet fuel wafting up the hill by the prevailing winds from Lindbergh Field in San Diego. That can't be too healthy for the residents there. As much as I love planes, I do not live near the airport for that reason.

What if AS had to apply to land in San Diego and they could only do so if their engines emitted no pollution and noise? Otherwise, don't bother coming here. It might be that their aircraft flying overhead might actually be the cause of a few higher health insurance premiums as well. But we gladly put up with it for their wonderful service.

It seems the insurance companies are dictating the way things are run at AS and your life. I do not think insurance companies or AS are too concerned about your health. As someone said...it's for profit.

Topic: RE: Alaska Airlines Breaking The Law!
Username: FlyboyOz
Posted 2004-07-09 02:24:31 and read 7207 times.

well...there's also a law in Hong Kong. The employers have the right not to hire the new employees/people who are smokers. I mean they are entitled to tell the new people that they cannot hire you because you're a smoker.

[Edited 2004-07-09 02:28:56]


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