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Topic: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Brian_ga
Posted 2004-09-17 20:48:00 and read 10756 times.

I seen a segment on the Discovery Wings channel yesterday about the prototype 707 doing a controlled barrel roll over Seattle during an airshow back in the late 50's. My question does anyone know of another civilian airliner that has done a controlled barrel roll?

brian_ga  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: ILSApproach
Posted 2004-09-18 03:30:29 and read 10591 times.

I thought I saw an Airbus doing one, it was either at an airshow or on DSC, TLC or something. Someone out there knows. If I remember it was probably in the last 10 yrs or so. Vaguely remember it in house colors.

Someone help me out.

Mike

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: NBGskygod
Posted 2004-09-18 04:35:44 and read 10539 times.

I have heard rumors that the B717 was rolled durring flight testing, but I don't know if its true or not.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2004-09-18 04:39:31 and read 10529 times.

After the 707 Boeing gave a very stern warning to their test pilots that if that ever happened again they would be fired. So no it did not happen with a 717!

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2004-09-18 07:47:33 and read 10423 times.

I thought I saw an Airbus doing one, it was either at an airshow or on DSC, TLC or something.

No, it was in a joke in a caption under a photo on this site  Big grin

Seriously, no Airbus I know of has ever done a barrel roll, at an airshow or otherwise. The only mention I've ever seen of such a thing is as a caption for a rotated photo.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: QantasA332
Posted 2004-09-18 07:51:00 and read 10420 times.

This is a very well-covered subject, see what turns up in a search...

The 707 roll is the classic example brought up, though one should keep in mind that there have also been many instances of Russian aircraft performing barrel rolls, often at airshows.

Cheers,
QantasA332

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Trickijedi
Posted 2004-09-18 07:59:51 and read 10403 times.

Correct me if I'm wrong but during the hijaking of Federal Express 705 in 1994, didn't the aircraft (a DC-10) perform a barrel roll at a high rate of speed (like 450 mph) in addition to a series of wild and crazy maneuvers in an attempt to get the hijacker off balance? 2 of the 3 flight crew attempted to wrestle the hijacker to the ground while the 3rd crew member atttempted to land the plane. All on board also suffered sever blows to the head.

I remember reading this a while back.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: AirxLiban
Posted 2004-09-18 08:09:24 and read 10393 times.

trickijedi

i believe you are right

if i am not mistaken the copilot sent the DC-10 into a barrel roll in order to get the hijacker (another pilot) onto the ground.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2004-09-18 08:14:56 and read 10386 times.

I believe the pilot who did the barrel roll with the 707 was Tex Johnston, Boeing's chief test pilot. He did the barrel roll while a number of airline executives were watching. When, Bill Allen, the head of Boeing, questioned Tex why he rolled the airplane, Tex's response was that he was proving that Boeing wasn't selling another Comet.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2004-09-18 08:15:37 and read 10387 times.

In all reality any aircraft should be able to do it and not have any additional stress on the aircraft. The problem is it takes a very good pilot to do it and I done think that its good for marketing if a passenger remembers that the aircraft that they are about to get on was the one he saw on TV flying upside down. Also like I mentioned, if the pilot makes even the slightest mistake the aircraft will rip apart and that is not something that a manufacture wants potential customers to see in the sales pitch.
When the test pilot did it with the 707 the CEO of Boeing was going to fire him but was talked out of it by another Executive. Needless to say there was a lot of yelling in the office that day. The same pilot flew the first 747 to the (I believe) Paris Airshow? and before he left was told that if he rolled this plane he would not come back with a job or his life for that matter! So yeah I can be done but it will not be done again. The story about this was in a book I read called "Triumph of the Boeing 747"
On a side note I would suggest this book to everyone, It is the best airline book I have ever read and you will learn a great deal. The book not only talks about the 747 but everything that led up to it and focuses a lot on how jet airliners can about. GREAT BOOK

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Trickijedi
Posted 2004-09-18 09:12:49 and read 10327 times.

Ok I found the link to the Federal Express 705 hijacking story. Here it is http://www.tailstrike.com/070494.htm. It talks about the barrel roll along with other interesting (and terrifying) events.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Ringwaymanc
Posted 2004-09-18 10:20:15 and read 10279 times.

just read the link on the 705 hijaking storey, thank god those three guys did what they did, i was terrified just reading it...

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Klmyank
Posted 2004-09-18 10:43:54 and read 10254 times.

The swissair DC-9 that flew Allied POWs out of Saddam International at the end of the first gulf war performed a barrel roll when crossing out of Iraqi airspace. Well documented in many accounts from people on the plane.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Backfire
Posted 2004-09-18 11:06:42 and read 10242 times.

Seriously, no Airbus I know of has ever done a barrel roll, at an airshow or otherwise.

One of Airbus' chief test pilots told me that the A310 could be rolled, but suddenly became very quiet - with a wry smile - when I asked him how he knew.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: StanstedFlyer
Posted 2004-09-18 11:07:56 and read 10240 times.

Can an Airbus do a barrel roll, or will the computers cancel the pilot inputs if it considers the manouver too extreme?

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Bigblack
Posted 2004-09-18 11:37:16 and read 10216 times.

Yea I remember that FedEx issue. The Hijacker was actually another FedEx pilot who suffered a severe emotional breakdown and attack the flight crew with a ball pin hammer right? The pilot barrel rolled, knocked him around the cabin, then the pounced taking him into custody. Heroic indeed.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2004-09-18 15:47:58 and read 10122 times.

Capt. Hoot Gibson "accidentally" rolled a TWA 727-100 over Saginaw MI on a NYC-MSP flight in 78 or 79. The plane diverted to DTW with some damage but no serious injuries. The evidence showed that the crew lowered the leading edge slat in flight because they just"experimenting around". The crew said the slats lowered themselves but Boeing proved otherwise. Also was noted that the cockpit voice recorder was blank. Someone pushed the erase button while on the deck at DTW.
The plane rolled twice in a dive and only recovered when the gear was retracted as a last effort to save the plane and about 80 people. The co-pilot keep his job but the other two were launched by TWA.
safe

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: L410Turbolet
Posted 2004-09-18 16:05:07 and read 10102 times.

About two weeks ago at the CIAF 2004 airshow, pilots from the Antonov company were doing both barrel roll and a looping with their An-70.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Pontoppidan

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: EnoreFilho
Posted 2004-09-18 17:13:36 and read 9899 times.

Here in Brazil, a Boeing 737-300 made a barrel Roll!!!!!

But I forgot the details.....  Confused I'll try to find it later....

I think it was a hijack.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Jumpseat70
Posted 2004-09-18 18:21:28 and read 9611 times.

I saw the TWA 727 that Hoot Gibson rolled at MCI airport weeks later. It had visiable stress marks on the undersides of the wings as pointed out by the pilots. It was a very "hush hush" affair. Hoot was known for his antics.

For years, at TWA, after the newly installed close proximty warning systems were installed we would laugh and say they should really say " Pull Up Hoot" inside of "Pull up Glide Slope".

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Warren747sp
Posted 2004-09-18 18:30:05 and read 9554 times.

If an Airbus plane can do a barrel roll, don't you think their publicity machine would have spread the news all over by now.
Incidentally a 747SP can do something similar also, when the CI 747SP rolled over in the Pacific and dropped about 20000ft before they were able to recover.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Chris78cpr
Posted 2004-09-18 18:31:20 and read 9548 times.

That fedex stroy is scary! That must of been nuts!

A dc10 doing a barrel roll!  Wow!

Chris

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: CitationJet
Posted 2004-09-18 18:35:34 and read 9529 times.

One of Airbus' chief test pilots told me that the A310 could be rolled, but suddenly became very quiet - with a wry smile - when I asked him how he knew.

Interesting, I had the very same response when I asked Boeing test pilots in Seattle when I worked for Boeing.
Other people at Boeing Seattle told me that all Boeing jets have been rolled. It is done out over the water, and out of site of anyone on land.
I believe that all Boeing commercial airlines have been rolled.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2004-09-18 18:51:52 and read 9457 times.

I have to believe what CITATION JET posted. Back in time(again) BN was testing their first 707 in late 59 with a Boeing crew on board. The plane crashed before BN could get it to DAL and place it in service. The accident took place somewhere over the NW part of the US. What was learned is that the plane was placed in a barrel roll on purpose and it never recovered. It was a mystery for quite a while what really happened to the plane but the story came out years later...
safe

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Shankly
Posted 2004-09-18 19:18:33 and read 9341 times.

The Lockheed company L1011 went inverted during stall tests for UK CAA flight certification.

The FAA regs demanded stall demonstrations to the incipient level whereas the CAA regs demanded the a/c go through the full business.

Much height loss and brown trousers ensued over the Californian desert until the L1011 was safely recovered!

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: AirxLiban
Posted 2004-09-18 19:52:03 and read 9208 times.

stansted flyer,

i do not believe that an Airbus aircraft, at least A320 and beyond can be rolled.

my understanding is that if you tilt the joystick all the way in one direction, it will only give you a maximum bank angle fo 67 degrees.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: MERSPACE
Posted 2004-09-18 22:02:47 and read 8948 times.

Safe,

I lived in Seattle in 1959. The BN 707 crash was reportly due to a DUTCH
ROLL maneuver, not a barrel roll. Early 707's had a tendency to get in such
a Dutch roll. After the BN crash, Boeing initiated an immediate fix, but
I can't rememder if it was a yaw damper mod, or something else.

Regards,
James

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Aerosol
Posted 2004-09-18 22:18:38 and read 8924 times.

On Pprune I read that the Concorde was barrel rolled in test flight. It was a topic about the airport movies. (I know they did in the movie  Smile)

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Bigblack
Posted 2004-09-19 00:30:19 and read 8854 times.

That fedex stroy is scary! That must of been nuts!

A dc10 doing a barrel roll!

Chris


Yes, you should try to catch that program on Discovery or Discovery Wings sometime. They re-run it from time to time. It was scary but it also was a great story of human triumph over adversity.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2004-09-19 01:47:10 and read 8805 times.

MERSPACE,
You are exactly right. The same fix was also installed on the 727, not until the 747 was there a structure change to fix the problem.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: JuniorSpotter
Posted 2004-09-19 01:47:33 and read 8808 times.

Well, not really a large airliner...but I've heard from a friend, that a friend of his (a pilot, flying bizjets) plays alot with their planes. Barrel rolls, inverted flying and so on. With an empty jet, that is. Is this something "common", in the world of bizjets?

Cheers!
Danny

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2004-09-19 05:38:03 and read 8685 times.

Thanks to MERSPACE and UAL747DEN. I loved to get educated.
Happy landings to both..
safe

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Flyibaby
Posted 2004-09-19 07:07:20 and read 8623 times.

I've heard from more than one pilot before that in the late 90's a Comair CRJ crew was fired for rolling a CRJ repo flight. Apparently the way they got caught was by the lavatory having a blue circle inside due to the blue juice escaping during the roll.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Cruzinaltitude
Posted 2004-09-19 13:08:21 and read 8520 times.

With all the reasons a pilot could get fired that is the one I would smile about if it was me!

To expand on this line of thought, is it possible for an airliner to fly inverted? On MS Flight Sim 2k2 I flew the 737 inverted (and trimmed for wings level) from LAX to LAS. An interesting view from the window! Anyways, just made me wonder if it was even remotely possible.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: FlyingColours
Posted 2004-09-19 15:23:46 and read 8463 times.

Well in theory you could hold it at wings level whilst inverted however the wings induce lift so the aircraft will essentially descend (If a wing generates lift, when it is inverted it is still generating lift but its upside down and therefore will slowly take the plane down), thats why wings are shaped the way they are.

The A310 does not have the same computer systems as the A32X and therefore could in theory be rolled (Or have they changed this), AFAIK the A310 is non FBW.

Phil
FlyingColours

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Brian_ga
Posted 2004-09-21 12:43:14 and read 8168 times.

I want to thank everyone for the education. See you can learn something new everyday!

Brian_ga  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: BMI701EGCC
Posted 2004-09-21 13:00:21 and read 8154 times.

Hi Guys,

I no that the A18,19,20 can all do barrel rolls, Ive got them on video carrying the manveover out.  Smile Big grin







Happy Posting,
Scott Waterworth
BMI701EGCC

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: PhotoLPPT
Posted 2004-09-21 14:35:54 and read 8078 times.

I saw a TV documentary some years ago (about the time AF Concorde crashed, but something shot during the eighties) of which I remember clearly a Concorde test pilot stating that the Concorde could not only do a barrel roll but also sustain inverted flight.

As for Airbus, the barrel roll is one of the manouvers the A320 simulator allows, so I guess they do can perform barrel rolls  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

See here: http://www.parthenon.uk.com/aviation/itm00293.htm

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: CoRocks
Posted 2004-09-22 00:49:22 and read 7895 times.

FYI....The video of the 707 roll is on a DVD called "Pioneers of Aviation" if anyone wants to see it. I have never seen it on the internet. It is probably out there somewhere. I picked the DVD up off amazon for like $10 bucks.

Alsom to clarify, he actually rolled it twice on 2 seperate passes.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: AirEMS
Posted 2004-09-22 01:05:15 and read 7890 times.

This may be a little off subject but does anyone know about a 747 doing a split S and going supersonic?? This might have been a big rumor but I thought I would ask  Confused

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-09-22 01:11:46 and read 7880 times.

A DC-8 has been made to go supersonic in an extremely shallow dive. Citation X test pilots regularly test them supersonic. I think a 747 would have the grunt to do Mach 1

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2004-09-22 02:51:13 and read 7819 times.

This may be a little off subject but does anyone know about a 747 doing a split S and going supersonic??

This did happen unintentionally when an engine on a China Airlines 747SP flamed out over the Pacific. The 747 managed to get down safely but with parts of flaps and other bits torn off.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1985/850219-0.htm

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: StearmanNut
Posted 2004-09-22 19:07:27 and read 7681 times.

Tex Johnston did what is called a "One G" roll. If you were not looking outside the plane, you would not have known it had barrel-rolled. Additionally, in those days, all the oil systems and other fluids management was gravity dependent, so had the "Zero G" component been introduced, the lack of fluids including oil flow, could have abruptly disrupted the flight. The only thing at risk in this issue was CEO Bill Allen's blood pressure.

And... If that Comair crew had performed a "One G" roll in their CRJ, there would never have been the tell-tale blue water stains on the lavatory ceiling.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Cedarjet
Posted 2004-09-22 19:33:36 and read 7657 times.

Boeing test pilots used to let the top pilots from the airlines barrel roll the new 707s on delivery flights and pre-delivery shake-downs. A friend of mine who was a flight engineer at MEA from the 60s to the late 80s said they used to roll the 707s. It was quite a widespread thing (Tex was a cult hero!) until some Lufthansa pilots did a barrel roll over Germany which went to plan, but on the second attempt, the aircraft suffered structural failure and exploded. After that people sobered up and stopped barrell rolling $100m aircraft.

CKfred, re the 707 roll at the World's Fair in Seattle: "When Bill Allen, the head of Boeing, questioned Tex why he rolled the airplane, Tex's response was that he was proving that Boeing wasn't selling another Comet." Very uncharitable of you to recall his comments in such a fashion. What he said was, "I told them I was trying to sell airplanes." I don't know what he was implying but I never took it as a slight against the Comet. Anyway, why don't you tell us which type was first to introduce sustained and safe trans-Atlantic air travel?

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Kempa
Posted 2004-09-23 03:40:19 and read 7568 times.

Too bad 747skipper isn't here anymore to quench our thirst for knowledge.

Topic: RE: Barrel Roll With An Airliner
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2004-09-23 04:39:20 and read 7551 times.

Too bad 747skipper isn't here anymore to quench our thirst for knowledge.

What exactly did you want to know? Ask away.


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