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Topic: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-27 23:38:18 and read 10241 times.

I posted on this in August but it has been archived so I thought would post a few questions on how Boeing's orders for the 777 Series will look at year end. The Boeing website still shows the same firm orders as August, which were:

2 x 777-300A Cathay Pacific
4 x 777-300ER Emirates
1 x 777-300ER Unidentified
4 x 777-200ER Air New Zealand

There are still 3 "open" orders to be booked. SQ's 18 773ER, Etihad's 5 773ER and 6 772ER (or 772A?) for Thai. If those are booked before year end the 777 will have had it's best sales year since 2000. Oil, CH11, Loses etc etc, it's nice to see a positive.

Boeing had stated they expected 2 new operators this year. Since then the Etihad order was announced and Air India will become a new operator shortly. Are these the 2 new operators Boeing was referring to? Any update on MX?

Is there any other orders we may see for the 777 before year end? Another thread pointed to SQ's website which referred to more than the 18 firm as the initial announcement had said. Do they ink a deal for a few more frames? Does EK have any more need for further 773ER? They have 9 options. Sorry I haven't mentioned Airbus but I just had a few questions about the 777 orders and would appreciate any clarifications or updates.

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-10-27 23:45:16 and read 10059 times.

772ER (or 772A?)

TG opted for the 772ER due to flexibility and resale vis-a-vis the 772A.




Any update on MX?

AM was considered the likely candidate, not MX





Is there any other orders we may see for the 777 before year end?

Probably not before the end of the year, but it's nigh-inevitable that we'll see SQ order the 772LR during/after its debut and testing.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-28 00:06:39 and read 9997 times.

ConcordeBoy

Thank you, I too, would like to see SQ seriously evaluate the 772LR upon EIS, their response to the 773ER EIS says it all. I forget one other possibility which is China. Though the 7E7 is the much discussed/anticipated order, other Boeings will be ordered too. Perhaps a few 777 rather than 73G?

Apologies to our Mexican friends for stating MX not AM  Smile

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Raggi
Posted 2004-10-28 00:22:20 and read 9948 times.

Is the unidentified 777-300ER for AF? I think I read that here on a.net, can anyone confirm?


thanks!

raggi

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Anxebla
Posted 2004-10-28 01:36:51 and read 9812 times.

772LR for SQ? Well Fred, let's wait and see.... Don't be any "Nostradamus", and don't make mistake between your wishes and reality  Big grin

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: The777Man
Posted 2004-10-28 08:13:17 and read 9521 times.

Yes, the unidentified 777-300ER was for ILFC for Air France.

As for new orders, there's still the possibility for Libyan Arab Airlines (LN) to order the 777 before the end of the year - they said that they are very interested in the 777.

TAAG Angola Airlines recently said that they are looking into an order for 737s and 777s. Perhaps before the end of the year ?

Finally, Qantas just announced that they are interested in a replacement for their 747-400s and Boeing flew a 777-300ER to show to Qantas. Qantas is also considering the A340-600. Probably not an order before the end of the year but perhaps next year ?

The777Man

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-28 12:24:13 and read 9317 times.

The777Man

That is a good call. Libyan Arab could well be closed before year end. TAAG & QF I just don't see any deal's being finalised this year should Boeing win the order competitions. A question for you if I may. I recently have started to hear that EK may in fact purchase more 777 direct from Boeing before year end. Have you heard this?

Also with NZ & VN Committing to lease more 772ER do any of the Leasing companies need to purchase any new frames, even if only to secure production slots?

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Adria
Posted 2004-10-28 15:18:46 and read 8681 times.

How many A340/330 di Airbus sell in 2004?

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Ramerinianair
Posted 2004-10-28 15:37:21 and read 8574 times.

Sorry to sound stupid but what is the 772A? I am aware of all the other models of the 777 except that one?
Thanks,
SR

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-10-28 16:33:43 and read 8255 times.

Sorry to sound stupid but what is the 772A?

777-200 (non-ER)

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-10-28 16:36:55 and read 8230 times.

Sorry to sound stupid but what is the 772A?

777-200 (non-ER)

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-28 16:37:47 and read 8223 times.

Adria

I don't know how many A330/340 have been sold. Note in my original post I apologise for not mentioning Airbus as I had a few genuine questions about 777 orders FOR 2004 and I don't want this to turn into an A vs B pi$$ing match which you are obviously intent on doing. Go check out www.airbus.com and you'll have your answer there.

Ramerinianair

777-200A and 777-300A are the original base models of the 777 series. The 200ER is the "B" market model. Perhaps Concordeboy or DfwRevolution who are far more knowledgable than I could correct or clarify my answer. I believe the 200A was primarily sold to Asian customers such as TG & EK, the 300A was bought by CX, SQ & TG

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-10-28 16:42:53 and read 8184 times.

I believe the 200A was primarily sold to Asian customers such as TG & EK

Also receiving customers in N.America and Europe.




300A was bought by CX, SQ & TG

...not to mention JL, NH, KE (the only carrier to fly them TransPac in scheduled service), and EK. No 773A has ever been operated by a non-Asian carrier.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: RJ111
Posted 2004-10-28 16:48:59 and read 8119 times.

How many A340/330 did Airbus sell in 2004?

18 firm

VS, EY, SR and TG yet to be confirmed

http://www.airbus.com/doc/media/ordersndeliveries/orders_n_deliveries.xls

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: LH423
Posted 2004-10-28 16:50:29 and read 8108 times.

The 772/3A is the A-market (go figure) or non-ER version of the 777-200/300. It was the first model of 777 offered by Boeing, before quickly offering the 777-200B or ER.

As you may recall, the 777 was designed with the idea of replacing the DC-10 and L-1011 fleets that the US carriers were still flying en vigueur. The 777-200 A-market doesn't have the range or payload capacity that the 777ER and LR offer and is designed more to fly large amounts of people relatively short distances. However, despite AA and DL have large fleets of DC-10s and L-1011s, respectively, only UA has really taken advantage of the 772A as a DC-10 replacement. AA and DL have both opted for longer range 777s as MD-11 replacements.

LH423

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-28 17:03:20 and read 8019 times.

...not to mention JL, NH, KE (the only carrier to fly them TransPac in scheduled service), and EK. No 773A has ever been operated by a non-Asian carrier

Does that make EK the only operator of all 4 variants? ie 200A/ER & 300A/ER?

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hoons90
Posted 2004-10-28 17:46:55 and read 7795 times.

Does that make EK the only operator of all 4 variants? ie 200A/ER & 300A/ER?

JAL operates all 777 variants that are flying today.

A-market 777-200s(JA8981-8985, 771J etc., PW powered) and A-market 777-300s (JA8941-8944, 751J, 752J etc., PW powered) used solely for domestic, and occasionally, some charters to Hawaii/Guam/Saipan.

B-market 777-200s (777-200ER JA701J-JA709J, GE powered) which fly Intra-Asia and JA704J-JA709J which fly to LHR, CDG, ZRH and Intra-Asia as well.
B-market 777-300s (777-300ER JA731J, 732J, GE powered) which fly Intra-Asia only at the moment.


[Edited 2004-10-28 17:47:58]

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: The777Man
Posted 2004-10-28 17:57:41 and read 7695 times.

PANAM_DC10;

Yes, I have heard that EK is in talks with Boeing for more 777-300ERs; this time direct order. They are apperently talking about a fairly large number.... Smile

It leads me to think they will possibly cancel their order for A340-600s...

The777Man

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Kalakaua
Posted 2004-10-28 18:26:54 and read 7485 times.

TAAG Angola Airlines recently said that they are looking into an order for 737s and 777s. Perhaps before the end of the year ?

Not this year, but maybe next year... hopefully; according to the recent article.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-28 18:28:10 and read 7471 times.

Hoons90

Thank you very much for that information. I never knew that.

The777Man

Hmmmm, EK, yes, they announced 9 options at Farnborough. Direct orders would be great too. Imagine, they have already committed to 30 frames! It seems that EIS is proving very successful for the 773ER and EK ordering more must surely put pressure on delivery slots. It would be interesting to see what ILFC & GECAS are considering given they've placed all their 773ER.

Thanks for the feedback and so as not to contradict myself I shant mention A346 or Airbus as I'm just interested in the 777 orders and I'm convinced Boeing has "one up the sleeve" so to speak before year end.  Big grin

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Blsbls99
Posted 2004-10-28 20:06:25 and read 6960 times.

Why would EK cancel orders for A340-600s?

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Adria
Posted 2004-10-28 20:51:08 and read 6773 times.

"I don't know how many A330/340 have been sold. Note in my original post I apologise for not mentioning Airbus as I had a few genuine questions about 777 orders FOR 2004 and I don't want this to turn into an A vs B pi$$ing match which you are obviously intent on doing. Go check out www.airbus.com and you'll have your answer there.".....I just wanted ti know and if you have a problem with that then let me remind you that this is a FORUM(where people can ask/talk/or give answers about something)


"Is there any other orders we may see for the 777 before year end? " why don't you try www.boeing,com?-and you'll have your answer there.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2004-10-28 20:57:20 and read 6729 times.

"Why would EK cancel orders for A340-600s?"

First off, remember that nothing has been decided. EK still has not placed their larger follow-on -300ER order, nor have they decided to cancel the A346HGW order.

That said, the answer to your question lies in the original decision to split their 350-seat order between the 773ER and the A346HGW. Nay, it goes back even further, to the original RFP. EK wanted the best performing aircraft possible. It's requirements were very strict. Although I can't give you specifics, EK wanted a very high payload as well as very high range. At the time, however, they couldn't get both requirements from the same aircraft. The A340-600 had the range (IIRC, Dubai to Chicago was the requirement), but not the payload. The 777-300ER at the time (before flight testing), had the payload, but not the range. Negotiations with the manufacturers began, and these two issues kept being brought up. Meanwhile, the -300ER had finally entered flight testing, and was proving a capable performer. At the same time, Airbus was promising a higher payload if EK waited for the HGW version. Another issue was price. EK liked what Boeing was promising with the -300ER, but not the price tag. In fact, Mr. Clark even mentioned EK wanted to buy the -300ER, but Boeing would not negotiate on the price. Finally, EK decided to buy 18 A346HGWs and lease 2 more, while at the same time, they would lease 26 773ERs. That way, they had the A340's to cover the longer-range routes with less payload, and the 777s to cover the high-payload routes. Something to note is that delivery of the 777s would begin almost immediately (March 2005), while the A340's wouldn't start arriving until 2007.

Toward the end of the negotiations, and after their conclusion, Boeing kept pushing the payload-range curve of the -300ER. Today, it has a higher official range than the A346 (Airbus has not released numbers for the HGW, but I'm told it's more of a payload increase than a range increase). EIS with AF and JL have proven well received, as well.

Subsequent to EK's announcement, they commited to a direct purchase of 4 more -300ERs, as well as 9 options. Now, I have been informed from a source within Boeing that EK is in talks for the direct purchase/option of 27 more aircraft. Whether or not this pans out or not is anyone's guess. However, the acquisition of such a large number of aircraft prior to the introduction of that aircraft's direct rival does cast doubt on whether or not the A346 order will stand up. But again, that's merely guesstimations, not based on any announcement on behalf of EK.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-28 22:08:33 and read 6429 times.

"Is there any other orders we may see for the 777 before year end? " why don't you try www.boeing,com?-and you'll have your answer there

Well

I just wanted ti know and if you have a problem with that then let me remind you that this is a FORUM(where people can ask/talk/or give answers about something

Agree and RJ111 has kindly provided your answer in a far more eloquent manner than I  Big grin . Reason for the post was because I had been to Boeing.com, promise I'll refrain from posting on a bad day at work again.

Anyway, back to topic and thank you Hamlet69 for a very good post. You've provided some very good information/updates to me in previous posts so I might try to ask if you've heard of any 777 for China in the 7E7 deal? As I understand other models will be ordered at the same time as the 7E7 with a total of almost 100 frames all up.

Regards



Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Ghost77
Posted 2004-10-29 06:30:51 and read 5979 times.

Today I've been told by my friend @ AM that the airline's first 2 B777s (they pretend to fly 4 777s by 2006) will be 2 used ex. SQ B777-200s and lease agreement will be for 7 years. Announcement was schedule for October, but as you can see the anticipated merger between CINTRA made it first to the media. So, we will have to wait for an AM announcement next November.

Any SQ insider? Anyone knows when SQ could transfer the 777s, possible rego's? I know the first one its schedule to start AM schedule flighst in October and November 2005.


Ricardo APM

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-10-29 09:17:18 and read 5872 times.

will be 2 used ex. SQ B777-200s

Interesting.

I'm curious as to whether they would be members of the 9V-SV* family... which is are so limited in supply compared to the 9V-SQ*/SR* 772ERs.


If the latter, I'm equally curious as to how said aircraft would perform out of MEX., if their intention was Europe.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Ktachiya
Posted 2004-10-29 09:30:12 and read 5859 times.

Was the 777-300ER listed for JL and NH?

Just wondering.........

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-29 20:59:14 and read 5701 times.

The 773ER orders, 8 for JL and 6 for NH, are listed in 2000 when they originally ordered the model. Think those numbers are right.

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2004-10-30 05:16:40 and read 5537 times.

". . .will be 2 used ex. SQ B777-200s and lease agreement will be for 7 years."

I also find this rather interesting. I had assumed that GE90's would be the preferred choice for AM, which would allow mx to be performed by AF.


"I'm curious as to whether they would be members of the 9V-SV* family... which is are so limited in supply compared to the 9V-SQ*/SR* 772ERs."

ConcordeBoy, you'll have to remind me (or you, The777Man) which registrations go with which aircraft. IIRC, the -SV*'s were the original deliveries, with the paper-reduced MTOW and derated engines, correct? These would be the aircraft I would expect SQ to lease out, though that is just an assumption. AFAIK, these are also the aircraft SQ wants to lease to FJ (x2).


"I might try to ask if you've heard of any 777 for China in the 7E7 deal?"

Unfortunately, I have not heard one way or another on this deal. The problem is nobody seems to know what is going on with the China deal. First, an announcement was expected before FIA'04. Then it was going to be sometime this month. Now, it's supposed to be during the next state visit (which makes a lot of sense). The numbers keep getting adjusted, too. The first I heard of it, was @ 40 frames. Then it was 50-60 for all 6 different majors. I've heard up to 80 (still all 7E7) rumored as well. Now you're suggesting up to 100 with additional models. All I can say for certain is that both Hainan and China Northern (which group are they now in, BTW?) have looked at the 777. Hainan for long-haul flights, China Northern for regional work.


A small update to the EK story, as well. One of the most knowledgeable people I know (Russ Short on the Orders forum) has suggested that EK will definitely convert their 9 outstanding options on -300ERs. Meanwhile, Boeing is pushing a much larger order to, in fact, kill the A346 order. This would correspond to what I've heard of an order for 25-30 total frames. We'll see. . . Whatever happens, it's now not expected to happen until 2005.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: The777Man
Posted 2004-10-30 08:30:13 and read 5457 times.

Hi Hamlet!

The original SQ 777s were the SQx series, then came the SRx series and lastly the SVx series (of the -200s). The SVx series is the only SQ version that flies long haul flights.

Also China Northern (CJ) is now a division of China Southern (CZ) if even that. All China Northern aircraft are being repainted into China Southern livery. Hainan Airlines (HU) has their own "group" that includes China Xinhua (XW) and is independent.

Looking forward to 2005 and that these and other possible 777 orders are firmed up!

The777Man

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-10-30 10:13:58 and read 5403 times.

ConcordeBoy, you'll have to remind me (or you, The777Man) which registrations go with which aircraft. IIRC, the -SV*'s were the original deliveries, with the paper-reduced MTOW and derated engines, correct? These would be the aircraft I would expect SQ to lease out, though that is just an assumption.

Nope.

As Lars just said, the 9V-SV* series that I spoke of are the most recent (and highest MTOW) 772ERs that SQ flies.

I doubt they'd lease them out due to their limited supply and optimum performance.



...which led into my second statement:

sure a Trent884B powered 772ER (e.g., the 9V-SQ*/SR* series) could op MEX-Europe nonstop, but with what sort of performance (or the lack thereof)?

I'm curious as to whether their relative low MTOWs are a structural byproduct, or just a result of their deration??

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: The777Man
Posted 2004-10-30 18:44:39 and read 5311 times.

I think AM should just take the plunge and order new aircraft from Boeing  Smile

The777Man

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Fyano773
Posted 2004-10-31 02:57:17 and read 5192 times.

I think AM should just take the plunge and order new aircraft from Boeing

We hope so...

According to current frames, backlog, etc. supposse AM places an order for new Cripple 7s in the next couple months...

...When they would be delivered?

Apologies to our Mexican friends for stating MX not AM

No problem...

Now that AM & MX will be sold as one entity, perhaps, they will have commonality in the long haul fleet with new or used 777s, both of them  Smile

Fyano.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2004-10-31 07:05:49 and read 5055 times.

Gents,

My mistake. I never really pay attention to registrations unless I have to. For the most part, I only track l/n's and, in Boeing's case, effectivity numbers.

Therefore, since the -SV* are the newest -200ERs, I really don't see these being leased out. If they are, it will probably only be for a short period.


"I'm curious as to whether their relative low MTOWs are a structural byproduct, or just a result of their deration??"

To the best of my knowledge, the low MTOW of the -SQ* and -SR* series (Boeing eff. numbers WB181-200, and WB231-260) is a paper registration difference, and not a structural difference. In other words, the airframes were built to regular -200ER specs but paper reduced to a lower MTOW. This was cheaper for SQ for two reasons: A) part of the cost of the airframe from the manufacturer is it's certified MTOW; B) reduced airport fees. However, the aircraft retain a higher resale value, as they can be re-certified for a higher MTOW should the need arise.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-10-31 07:13:45 and read 5055 times.

That's what I thought...

...and since, if IINM, they're powered by Trent884Bs--- they can be PIPed to 90K+ and 656,000 for AM should the need arise outta MEX.

Good stuff Hammy!

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-10-31 23:40:33 and read 4869 times.

Thanks Hamlet69

The777Man is correct, CJ is part of CZ. I believe HU need their 777 for EIS in 2005 so looks like they'll be leased. True, there is a political aspect to the Chinese order and the most recent update I received word on had 65-75 7E7 and 30 or so 73G's, total 100. You're right we just need to wait. It'll be very interesting to see what EK does but that'll be for 2005. Thanks again to you and a few of the others for some really good post's and appreciate the ones about the derated 772. Learn something new every day!

Regards
PANAM_DC10

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Bill142
Posted 2004-11-01 00:15:17 and read 4835 times.

Finally, Qantas just announced that they are interested in a replacement for their 747-400s and Boeing flew a 777-300ER to show to Qantas. Qantas is also considering the A340-600. Probably not an order before the end of the year but perhaps next year ?

Don't expect an order from QF untill May or June or later next year. The proposals are due to be presented to the board in May of next year. I would expect negotiations would have begun before then. But from what I have heard this deal will be decide by price more then performance.

Edit: also the 773ER that was in SYD was apparently to demonstrate the connexion system and not the aircraft.

[Edited 2004-11-01 00:17:25]

[Edited 2004-11-01 00:19:33]

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2004-11-01 00:28:32 and read 4814 times.

"But from what I have heard this deal will be decide by price more then performance."

Also what I've heard. OTOH, I've had a few Qantas people tell me that the airline partially regrets ordering the A330, and if they had to do it over again, they would have gone with an A380 & 777 order, instead. How spread out this sentiment is throughout the airline, I don't know.

Personally, for such a world-class airline such as Qantas, their fleet planning has been haphazard and without much thought. The 747-400ER order I understand, as they were looking for more payload on their NA runs. The A380 order as well made sense for Qantas, for the Kangaroo routes. However, they also chose to order the A330-200/-300, for which the airline seemed to have no plan for at all. Of course, they seem to now have found their niche on regional routes, but it is quite clear they only ordered these aircraft because of their price. Then we get into the whole narrowbody disaster. First, the airline pits the 737-800 vs. the A320-200, and chooses the former. Though performance was stated as the major factor, it really came down to who could supply their aircraft the quickest. Then, a few years later, Qantas basically runs the same battle again but comes to the opposite conclusion - the A320. Again, it came down to availability. During this entire time, they are securing 717's for Qantaslink, which in turn will (supposedly) be replaced by Jetstar's A320's.

Now, after six months of saying they have no need for a 300-350 seat aircraft, they announce plans that they will place an order for such an aircraft in 6 months time. Once again, it will apparently come down to price and availability.

As I said, no planning involved. At this point in time, Qantas is merely reacting to what others are doing, period. As I said before, this is a real shame for such a world-class airline.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-11-01 01:26:52 and read 4772 times.

agree 100% Hamster... I've ALWAYS wondered WTF was the rationale behind QF's fleet planning!

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Dalecary
Posted 2004-11-01 01:46:40 and read 4739 times.

agree 100% Hamster... I've ALWAYS wondered WTF was the rationale behind QF's fleet planning!

Not too hard re 380/330. The 380 was a desirable addition to the fleet and Airbus came in with an irresistible 330 deal,effectively squeezing out the technically preferred 777. A big win for the bean counters.
The 738 selection was made due to the availability of AA production slots(order to delivery in around 100days!!!).
The JQ 320s were selected as 717 regional pilots agreed to fly them for the same salary they flew the 717s for and the eventual 738/320 QF/JQ fleets will be large enough to allow for the different types in the QF group. Also, gave them a differentiater against DJ.
I think with the 300-350 seater they are playing catch-up and possibly playing follow-the-leader with SQ,as they did with the 380.
Obviously, purchase price plays a huge hand in any QF aircraft purchase and the fleet does look a bit eclectic, however the bottom line is good, appears to be getting better, and the company seems to be functioning well as a whole.
So, do QF go for the more capable 773ER or go with 330/380 commonality and order the 346??? I dunno, but it appears in recent times, that Boeing are getting far more aggressive in their 777 packages.

Dale.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Anxebla
Posted 2004-11-01 01:56:46 and read 4732 times.

By the way of QF and SYD... does anyone know if Boeing flew a 777-300ER from SYD to GRU to show how wonderful ETOPS-330' can be?

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2004-11-01 06:36:41 and read 4640 times.

"A big win for the bean counters."

And no one is arguing it isn't. In fact, that's the point. As the new aircraft come in, they will obviously make a good impression due to low acquisition costs. But if performance parameters were compromised and the fleet is mismatched, these costs will make themselves apparent down the road. If QF can run Jetstar as a completely independent entity, then it could certainly work. However, if Jetstar doesn't perform as expected, there will be problems. OTOH and paradoxially, if Jetstar is a runaway success, there could also be problems. . .


". . .does anyone know if Boeing flew a 777-300ER from SYD to GRU to show how wonderful ETOPS-330' can be?"

The SYD-GRU route is one of the few viable corridors that cannot be served under the current ETOPS 180/204 standards. Therefore, Boeing's decision to fly this route several times during 773ER flight testing was both an attempt to test the aircraft, and to show the regulation authorities that modern twins like the 777 are safe enough to do these routes. In fact, one flight was accomplished with one engine purposely shut down for nearly 5 hours! The fact it originated in SYD was a fortunately coincidence for Boeing to get the aircraft close to QF.

As to the latest stop of a 773ER in SYD, it was officially there to show Connexion to QF brass. However, several people told me QF were looking at a lot more than Connexion. The fact that Airbus is rumored to be sending a delgation to SYD on a brand-new A346 also hints at the fact that management were doing more than just surfing the web. . .

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Anxebla
Posted 2004-11-01 06:50:48 and read 4627 times.

Hamlet69.... but when that engine was shut down for 5 hours... which one was the leg?? was it during a SYD-GRU test flight??

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2004-11-01 07:09:37 and read 4619 times.

The original 330-minute shutdown was on a flight from Seattle to Taipei, as reported here:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/q4/nr_031015g.html

However, IIRC, another 330-minute test was indeed performed SYD-GRU. Actually, it might have been another SA destination. Now that I think about it, I can't exactly remember where that flight terminated at.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: M27
Posted 2004-11-01 14:20:27 and read 4492 times.

Recife, Brazil. Syd-Rec Duration of flight 18hrs 25min.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: M27
Posted 2004-11-01 14:34:49 and read 4478 times.

Just a side note, ATW is posting on their web site news, that JAL is getting 0.5 to 0.8% better fuel burn than expected. If this has already been posted, sorry I didn't see it. http://www.atwonline.com Look under other news.

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Anxebla
Posted 2004-11-02 05:26:58 and read 4272 times.

Thanks a lot by that link, Hamlet69...
it's very interesting  Smile but it seem SYD-GRU's leg or another airway close to the Antarctic never have been flown on a test flight. It's curious... Why not?
According to http://gc.kls2.com/faq.html#etops-330 Boeing wants to fly from SYD to GRU to test the ETOPS-330'

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Aviasian
Posted 2004-11-02 09:22:04 and read 4217 times.

As India's aviation regulations creaks apart ever so gently, I would place my bets on Jet Airways going for the B777s. This was mentioned when the airline announced thrice-daily services to Singapore (one each from Chennai, Mumbai and Delhi).

KC Sim
Bangkok

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Dalecary
Posted 2004-11-02 23:34:56 and read 4079 times.

"And no one is arguing it isn't. In fact, that's the point. As the new aircraft come in, they will obviously make a good impression due to low acquisition costs. But if performance parameters were compromised and the fleet is mismatched, these costs will make themselves apparent down the road. If QF can run Jetstar as a completely independent entity, then it could certainly work. However, if Jetstar doesn't perform as expected, there will be problems. OTOH and paradoxially, if Jetstar is a runaway success, there could also be problems. . ."

I agree with your summation 100% and I was just presenting the QF reasoning. I agree with you and believe they went on initial cost and didn't consider the long term ramifications of a compromised fleet. I believe the 773ER/346 decision will be viewed in a far more long-term manner and not just on purchase price.

Dale

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2004-11-03 19:28:59 and read 3910 times.

". . . but it seem SYD-GRU's leg or another airway close to the Antarctic never have been flown on a test flight."

Actually, the point I was trying to get across was that there were - several, in fact. I know a demonstration flight was flown SYD-GRU, and an additional 330ETOPS flight was flown SYD-SA (M27 stated it was to Recife, Brazil).


"I believe the 773ER/346 decision will be viewed in a far more long-term manner and not just on purchase price."

I hope you're right. And from a few different people I've talked to, there does seem to be a slightly different mentality at QF now. I think the disasterous initial introduction of the A330 definitely woke some people up to the dangers of buying aircraft solely because of the deal offered. Hopefully the 777/A340 battle will be considered a little more than previous decisions.

Regards,

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Anxebla
Posted 2004-11-03 19:48:03 and read 3883 times.

Hamlet69...
Do you know if ETOPS-330' is approved yet by FAA or JAA?

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-11-03 19:50:08 and read 3881 times.

Not yet it isn't

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Anxebla
Posted 2004-11-03 19:52:22 and read 3875 times.

No? When? Is necessary more flights test? What is the maximun ETOPS approved at the moment???

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: PANAM_DC10
Posted 2004-11-04 17:38:57 and read 3674 times.

Well I didn't figure on cancellations or deferrals! It would appear that Boeing and AA are close to reaching an agreement on AA's remaing 9 772 orders. Hope they don't get outright cancelled. Below is from the airline via Bloomberg.

Nov. 3 (Bloomberg) -- American Airlines, the world's largest
carrier, is in talks with Boeing Co. to defer delivery of some
aircraft as airline capacity exceeds demand and pushes down ticket
prices, Chief Financial Officer James Beer said.
American, a unit of AMR Corp., expects to make an
announcement soon, Beer said in a meeting with investors and
analysts. American has firm commitments to acquire 47 Boeing 737-
800s and nine Boeing 777-200s between 2006 and 2010.

Not really a surprise but look at what happened with QF & AA after 9/11 and now QF is looking at 777 or A340, Hmmmm. Maybe take Americans deliveries again?

Regards

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: Cathay744
Posted 2004-11-04 18:01:36 and read 3643 times.

What does "A" stand for does That mean the 777-300A of CX are more advanced then their other 777-300 ?

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: The777Man
Posted 2004-11-04 18:12:12 and read 3629 times.

My guess is that AA will defer delivery of the 777s but not cancel them. They will need them for their planned expansion to Asia. Next 777 for AA is currently due in Feb06 or so so problem to defer it. When QF took over AA's 738s, they were already in the process of being built.

I agree 100 % with Hamlet69 that QF's fleet planning hasn't been that great. I think QF got the A330s at very little cost as an incentive to order the A380.

Hopefully QF will finally order the 777 and get 777-300ER!

The777Man

Topic: RE: Boeing 777 Orders For 2004
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-11-05 01:13:35 and read 3494 times.

What does "A" stand for does

The A indicates that the aircraft is the original 777-300 model, meant to serve what's referred to as the A-market: medium range, typically under 6000nm.






That mean the 777-300A of CX are more advanced then their other 777-300?

Nope. All of CX's 773s are 773As.

The more advanced is the 773ER, currently being flown by AF, JL, and soon NH, etc.


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