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Topic: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Rumorboy
Posted 2004-11-16 16:46:41 and read 6875 times.

Union President Calls for Nationwide Strike
Tuesday November 16, 10:01 am ET
Flight Attendants Say 'No' to Unrelenting Concessions


PITTSBURGH, Nov. 16 /PRNewswire/ -- Patricia Friend, president of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, today called on the union's Board of Directors to authorize a nationwide strike against the concerted effort by airline management to wipe out union contracts and deprive employees of their livelihood. AFA represents flight attendants at 26 airlines.
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"We will stand up for the profession we have built by taking a stand for flight attendants everywhere, in this country and around the world," Friend declared to board members at the opening of the board's annual meeting, in Pittsburgh. "Airline management needs to understand that there will be serious consequences if they persist in their attacks on our contracts."

Friend noted that through bankruptcy, management has made an end run around the collective bargaining process by threatening liquidation and introducing a third party, the court, with the power to impose a draconian settlement. For example, US Airways last week asked a court to approve its plan to tear up its union contracts, scrap its pension plans and eliminate health coverage for retirees. United Airlines, the nation's second-largest carrier, wants nearly $140 million in concessions from flight attendants, on top of the $314 million annually it has already extracted from the flight attendant work group. United also seeks hundreds of millions more by attempting to terminate its pension plans. Seven carriers with AFA representation are currently in bankruptcy, and others are on the brink.

"Our entire industry is in turmoil and the careers of our flight attendants all hang in the balance," Friend said. "Pensions, for which flight attendants have dedicated many years of hard work, are being wiped out with the sound of a judge's gavel. Health care coverage for employees in an essentially unhealthy work environment is reaching cost levels unaffordable to flight attendants who every year sacrifice more of their income to 'save their airline.' Almost everywhere we look, flight attendants are being forced to work longer hours with reduced rest time, and all for ever-decreasing wages. This must stop"

The AFA Board of Directors is expected to act on a resolution authorizing a strike later today.

More than 46,000 flight attendants join together to form AFA, the world's largest flight attendant union. AFA is part of the 700,000 member strong Communications Workers of America, AFL-CIO. Visit us at http://www.afanet.org.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, AFL-CIO


Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Braniff727
Posted 2004-11-16 17:20:20 and read 6771 times.

Is it just me or is this starting to look a lot like Eastern Airlines?

I understand that the groups are not happy about the state of the industry, but this to me seems completely foolish on their part. If they do in fact strike, they would cripple the two airlines in the worst financial state.

They are either really foolish, or really smart hoping their respective companies shut down and they, some of them, get picked up by another, more financially sound airline.

Just my two cents.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Avek00
Posted 2004-11-16 17:20:52 and read 6767 times.

Why the hell would ANY airline employee support this move? Don't you realize that if there was an industrywide strike the legal backlash would be severe - I cringe at the thought of what a GOP President & Congress would do to American labor laws in the aftermath of such a job action.

Besides, striking AFA members only translate to more flying business for non-AFA represented FAs (e.g., DL/CO/NW/AA), as the AFA carriers go bankrupt or liquidate in short order.

[Edited 2004-11-16 17:21:41]

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Danny
Posted 2004-11-16 17:23:36 and read 6750 times.

Is there a legal way to get rid of these Unions?

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Sfo777
Posted 2004-11-16 17:26:19 and read 6745 times.

Sounds like what all of us pax was hoping wouldn't happen - that UAL is shut down by the flight attendants. Are the work changes the legacy airlines requesting really that onerous? Will they be working harder than Southwest F/As?

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2004-11-16 17:32:00 and read 6731 times.

This is a page from the Frank Lorenzo playbook. But in this case, to strike now, would be suicidal. My opinion is that the chiefs and the indians have to make nice. The days of a CEO making 10M while the operation is in the crapper have to be gone. Just like the unions protecting the lazy and inept from being fired; there is no place for this in this day and age.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2004-11-16 17:41:35 and read 6700 times.

Christmas is just around the cornor for Jetblue, Indy and friends if this happens.

They'd be really stupid to do it, unless they could get the other unions on board too, but I believe this could be exactly what delta wanted.

Can you imagine? I somehow doubt ppl at the other carriers would vote in favour, i think they'd rather secure their own jobs.
Do we know exactly what carriers would be effected if this went ahead?

If they only get UA and US this wouldn't be effective for their cause.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: MidnightMike
Posted 2004-11-16 17:59:40 and read 6645 times.

The first airline that goes on strike will ensure that their airline will go out of business and will be liquidated.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: 727LOVER
Posted 2004-11-16 18:06:51 and read 6614 times.

Seven carriers with AFA representation are currently in bankruptcy, and others are on the brink.

UA,US,TZ.....who else make up 7?  Confused
HA still in Ch. 11?

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Ordinduaflyer
Posted 2004-11-16 18:07:25 and read 6610 times.

It's not as if the FAs (or other airline employees) don't have my sympathy with respect to the givebacks, etc that are being asked of them. BUT, the thought of going on strike against an airline, particularly one in a difficult financial situation such as UA, US, etc is about as smart as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As mentioned above ref: Eastern...a strike would be the last nail in the coffin. Does the AFA think there are enough jobs within the industry that they'll be able to easily pick up and start flying with another airline should their current employer go under? Hopefully this is just posturing on the part of AFA management and the union membership is not in support of such an action.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Cory6188
Posted 2004-11-16 19:06:33 and read 6503 times.

I don't think that it is fair to ask all the F/A's nationwide represented by the AFA to go on strike. CO hasn't asked for any wage givebacks from any of its employees, so why should CO F/A's go on strike? Nothing bad has been done to them.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Boeing757/767
Posted 2004-11-16 19:16:20 and read 6455 times.

Hey, instead of threatening to strike, do us all a favor and FIND ANOTHER JOB.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Contrails
Posted 2004-11-16 19:29:34 and read 6418 times.

This is the most nauseating example of gross stupidity I have ever heard of. I sincerely hope that this union president is the only moron supporting this insane idea. Surely nobody in their right mind would vote for it.

If such a strike happens several airlines will go out of business for good. A few hundred thousand people will be without work, and very few of them will ever work in the airline industry again because the jobs won't be there any more. A lot of these people will be looking at long term unemployment because the economy will be back in a recession. And then there's the extreme inconvenience it would cause the traveling public, something I seriously doubt the union has even thought about.

I have an idea: why don't we all send an e-mail to the union telling them what a stupid idea this is. Their address is: afatalk@afanet.org. I'm going to.


Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Sfo777
Posted 2004-11-16 19:32:19 and read 6401 times.


I think that the UAL F/As deliver outstanding service and know I could count on them in an emergency - I'm sorry to see them choosing to do this.

I agree with Boeing757/767. The plain fact is that the airline industry has changed dramatically and those who are choosing not to change should find other jobs instead of dragging down the company, their fellow workers, and the millions of passengers who have faithfully supported their respective companies through buying tickets and putting up with a fairly huge decline in service due to cutbacks. I do think there are enough passengers in the US who might pay a little more for service but they don't want to pay much more and there is going to need to be a redefinition of what everyone does around flying folks from point a to b.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2004-11-16 20:02:45 and read 6306 times.

It's really a shame that the union does such a disservice to their dues paying members by putting out a possibility that could not possibly happen.

Each airline labor contract is governed by the Railway Labor Act. The rules regarding strikes under the RLA are very specific, and there are many steps that must be followed before the company can impose new work rules/or the union can strike. That's why airline industry labor negotiations tend to drag on for YEARS, because it is so hard to get to the "self-help" point.

IMO, the AFA showed their total ignorance of the basic tenants of business. If I'm not mistaken, didn't the AFA recently become part of the CWA? Their business acumen must not be too good at all.

Maybe the AFA should consider lowering their dues, in order to empathize with their rank and file. But I doubt that'll happen. After all, the union leaders have their lifestyle to maintain, right?

French style "national strikes" don't work in France, and thankfully, can't happen here!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Rumorboy
Posted 2004-11-16 20:22:51 and read 6257 times.


"French style "national strikes" don't work in France, and thankfully, can't happen here! "


Actually other unions have a right to do a sympathy strike with the AFA. For example Easterns IAM went on strike and ALPA sympathized with the union and also went on strike. The rest is history. If ALPA wanted they can also do a sympathy strike(I doubt it). This is very ugly for everybody.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2004-11-16 20:32:32 and read 6216 times.

I hope they don't but the next 4 years very well could be organized labor's last stand. As a union member in a state soon to be controlled by a GOP legislature and Governor (Matt Blunt-Missouri) I understand the frustration.
Blunt's goal is to make Missouri a right-to-work state which will in effect render my union toothless. I am neither gung-ho union nor gung-ho company. I do however that I should be able to support myself with one full-time job. After the union sold me down the river earlier this year (no raise for 2-3 years but free insurance, in other words I get squat while people with umpteen kids get free health coverage) I'll be the first to resign from the union when the state does go right-to-work. It would not be in my best interest to shut my company down but if they suddenly told me I'ld be making 20% less I'ld be in dire straits. I have been looking for another job for 3 YEARS, but to start at the bottom again would be the same as taking that 20% cut.

It's easy to say FIND ANOTHER JOB, that's hard enough these days but what if you need to find ANOTHER TWO JOBS just to break even? Both sides need to sit their asses down and work for the benefit of the company instead of seeing whose got the biggest d*ck and screwing everyone in the process.

If there's a middle class left in 4 years it won't be because of level headed people like myself, it will be because militant unions and self serving greedy management can't see the big picture.

There, I vented.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2004-11-16 20:42:44 and read 6177 times.

RumorBoy -

AFA doesn't have the right to call a general strike across all AFA represented carriers. It would be a one by one process.

Yes, sympathy strikes are allowed, but again, on a case by case basis. It has more to do with language in most contracts that allow labor groups to honor other labor groups picket lines.

Don't forget, AA pilots staged what turned out to be an illegal strike when they protested the purchase of Reno Air. AA sued the union and won a huge judgement. AA had the compnay over a barrel, I think the damages award was somewhere in the area of $40 million. Do you think the AFA would risk that?

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2004-11-16 20:44:08 and read 6168 times.

Whoops! I meant to say in the last paragraph "If there ISN'T a middle class left..."

Should chill out before I start typing!  Big grin

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Ltbewr
Posted 2004-11-16 20:49:24 and read 6154 times.

It is unfortunate that this union is calling for a 'nationwide strike', but I understand their anger and frustration leading to this call.
How many of you would like to go to work one day and be told your salary is being cut 25, 30, 40%, your going to lose your pension, you may be laid-off, your going to have to pay more into your health care insurance, you will be required to work 10 more hours a week without overtime pay and only get 4 hours sleep between work shifts oh, and have you deal with surly customers...and so on. I agree though that the unions here maybe leading their members and some of the airlines on a death march.
I would also note that unlike 25 years ago, being an f/a is a long term career now, not just someplace for a single woman to work at for a few years before getting married. Maybe the airlines want to turn back the clock to the 1960's where all f/a's were female, never with the company long enough to qualify for a pension, when housing and general living costs were a lot lower, the turnover was a lot higher meaning less time at a company so pay could be lower, where they could fire you if you put on 5 extra pounds or became pregent. I don't know of any former f/a's whom are involved with higher management with any USA based airline. I also know that f/a's are required by law and business necessity to have on all flights to serve and if needed to save passangers in a crash or incidnet and 100's of them have died on the job, including over 12 on 9/11. And you wonder why they want to strike....

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Rumorboy
Posted 2004-11-16 21:04:33 and read 6111 times.


"Don't forget, AA pilots staged what turned out to be an illegal strike when they protested the purchase of Reno Air. AA sued the union and won a huge judgement. AA had the compnay over a barrel, I think the damages award was somewhere in the area of $40 million. Do you think the AFA would risk that?"

That was considered a illegal sick out. Not a strike. The money owed in that case was given back during the last concession package by the pilots. It almost bankrupt the union(APA).

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: 7E72004
Posted 2004-11-16 21:04:47 and read 6107 times.

A nationwide strike is just plain stupidity...whoever came up with that idea should have his/her ass kicked real good. As mentioned in a previous post, airlines such as CO has not done anything to warrant a strike. I think if it happens then let it happen at the specific airlines (UA, US, etc.). These people need to realize that if their wages are not cut, then they will not have wages at all because the airline will go under. I feel sorry for the innocent children of these workers who are going to feel the brunt of any action.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Avek00
Posted 2004-11-16 21:19:01 and read 6070 times.

"CO hasn't asked for any wage givebacks from any of its employees, so why should CO F/A's go on strike? Nothing bad has been done to them."

CO's Flight Attendants won't be negatively affected by AFA's stupidity - they're represented by the IAM.  Smile

In fact, should AFA do a nationwide strike, CO will be HIRING new Flight Attendants... Big grin

[Edited 2004-11-16 21:20:02]

[Edited 2004-11-16 21:20:27]

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Gnomon
Posted 2004-11-16 21:40:18 and read 6027 times.

...Yet another example of the emotionality and dogmatic impulsiveness with which airline unions run their affairs.

The AFA has taken its latest shenanigans right out of Chapter 4 of "Most Original Routes to the Unemployment Line," a volume consulted by many a labor union over the years.

Good job, ladies and gents. Keep it up.

At least you're increasing the demand for lawyers at the nation's airlines, if nothing else.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2004-11-16 21:50:53 and read 5997 times.

It surprises me that so many on here, who obviously don't work in the airline industry, have such a strong opinion. I am neither suggesting the nationwide strike is a good idea or bad, but unless you're in the industry and a union member, I really don't think you're qualified to comment.

I also find it interesting how unions are under constant attack on this forum. People, if you're really interested in the airline industry, you're going to have to accept the fact that unions are a large part of it. Very few airline employees are not represented. As Miamiair said above, we need to focus more attention on the management of the airlines, their grossly inflated salaries and benefits and their golden parachutes for when they leave or fold the company.

It floors me that the majority of the A.nutters are pro company and not pro-employee, especially since you'll find very few management members on this forum. But then again, we all like to be armchair CEOs.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2004-11-16 21:59:38 and read 5955 times.

QQ -

Unions may be a large part, but what purpose do they serve today? Interestingly, the most unionized carrier in the country is Southwest, which is also the most productive and profitable. Why have the unions at the legacy carriers resisted embracing the same type of productivity? Because unions are a business, and they rely on the revenue that each dues paying member brings. The modern airline unions are a joke. Most are living in the gravy days of the late 90's, trying to find a way to earn more and work less. Sorry. Technology and competition make that unrealistic. If a union would break the mold and find a way to tie pay to productivity, while fairly compensating the employee, only a foolish manager would turn away.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Clipperaurora
Posted 2004-11-16 22:00:56 and read 5950 times.

Boeing757/767 hit the nail on the head.....GO FIND ANOTHER JOB
Why hurt the whole company and those that value their job, these freakin people are idiots, IF YOU STRIKE YOU GO OUT OF BUSINESS

and then go work for Southwest, Air Tran, and be at the bottom of the seniority list and do much more work as well as even less pay.....COME ON people, wake up a smell the coffee, look at the industry, you'll never make 50,000 to 75,000 a year again being a flight attendant, it's not going to happen
You should read the book,,,,,,EASTERN AIRLINES

::::::::::::::::::::DAMN:::::::::::::::::::::

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: BlatantEcho
Posted 2004-11-16 22:03:53 and read 5940 times.

I'm not pro union by any stretch, but I'm all for this.

It'll kill off at least a few airlines, and the industry can consolidate and "start over"

The barriers to exit in this industry are enourmous, and here is a way to bypass that. I don't fly any of the airlines that would be affected, so I couldn't care less either.

Air travel is a commodity, low fares please.

George

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Qqflyboy
Posted 2004-11-16 22:45:57 and read 5853 times.

TOLtommy... you've made a good point. Let's look at Southwest. Before I start, let me say this: I am not bashing AA, I don't dislike my job and no I am not going to look for another one. Having said that, we all know AA and WN's management styles could not be more opposite. Southwest has, since their inception, embraced the employees and have realized they are the means to an end, that is, happy employees = happy customers and a good bottom line. Many legacy carriers, including AA, have and still view employees as an end to the means. If AA and other legacy carriers took an entirely different approach with labor, things would be very different.

Perfect example: Continental. Their employees are much more highly regarded then they were in the past, and they have Gordy to thank for that. I fully believe Gerard Arpey, AA's new CEO, is trying to mend the relationship between the company and the unions and employees. And I am quite pleased with that. Just like the times of 'ol when unions were doing this or that, the companies are still acting in Crandall-esque ways painting the employees as the enemy.

AA has done a great job involving employees with decisions in the past year, and, despite our loss for Q3, moral is still on the rise at AA. Even though employees are working more, making less, paying more for health insurance and have less benefits, the employees feel more apart of the company, feel more connected to the company's gains and losses and therefore have a genuine understanding of the hardships our company faces. This is a fundamental shift in the management make-up at AA, and it's trickling down to frontline employees. And we like it. I hope this leads to continued improvement in management/employee relations and, hopefully, to more amicable contract negotiations in the future.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Blueairbureau
Posted 2004-11-16 23:50:40 and read 5678 times.

This is a real tough choice. Support the union and possibly cripple my airline or continue working at my profitable airline. Although I understand my fellow union members wishes to keep what little they have left, I find myself unable to support their desired actions. My reason is this. The level at which they are desired to be brought down to by there company is the level at which I survive on a regular basis. It seems for many years the legacy carrier f/a's have had a superiority complex about their regional, national, and specialty carrier bretheren. We all do the "same job", however because they were at International Fantastic Legacy Carrier Airlines they felt they were the cream of the crop. Well guess what. As you became bloated so didn't your airline. And when you weren't looking the passengers decided you weren't worth the extra cost of your airlines ticket. They decided airline choice "B" (as in budget) was just as good, safe, friendly, customer oriented, and convenient as the legacy carrier. Oh yeah, they also liked the fact choice "B" airlines was not always in some kind of financial trouble leaving them confident their travel plans were safe.
So now they're asking for support in a show of solidarity in order to affect change at International Fantastic Legacy Carrier Airlines so they don't become "ME"! Well guess what, I will support you. When your airline folds I'll be more then happy to drive you to the Social Security Administration so you can collect your food stamps. Just don't be surprised if they don't immediately recognize how fantastic you are.
This may seem terse BUT, and it's a BIG BUT, after cuts they still will earn more than a five year regional f/a who makes 25,000 if she's lucky. Damn lucky!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: AirT85
Posted 2004-11-16 23:59:56 and read 5630 times.

Please forgive me of my arrogance if I show any. I am only 19 years old and was barely old enough to comprehend Eastern Airlines shutting-down and never coming back (let alone why).

If (and this is a BIG if) the AFA strikes, would the affected airlines be allowed to hire non-union replacements (I guess scabs) and if so how do they go about doing that?

Please don't think I have no sympathy or compassion for the affected employees, I do, as anyone who loves this industry should. However, I think going on strike is a foolish move and should be avoided at all costs. If the AFA is dumb enough to do such a thing, they deserve whats coming to them, whether that be one or more airlines shutting down. However, I truly feel sorry for the other employees of those airlines who are just trying to work through the mess that has become our nations airline industry.

-Tony

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: ASTROJET707
Posted 2004-11-17 00:01:53 and read 5616 times.

Back in 200 I was caught in the bullshit at UA as the pilots were flying by the rules of their contract to the letter of the law. I had flights canceled "due to weather" when in fact they were cancelled due to cockpit crews. I was stranded in three airports overnight at my expense, missed meetings and missed family reunion. I met a UA F/A about four months ago non-revving who stated there are a lot of pissed of F/As angry at the "Prima Donna" cockpit boys. I feel sorry for the F/As at UA. I flew UA loyal from 1987 through 2000. I have been on 3 UA flights since....business trips...if it were up to me I would have flown another carrier. I empathize with all F/As everywhere, some are just bitches, however 99% are great people who love to fly.

AJ707

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: STLGph
Posted 2004-11-17 00:38:15 and read 5444 times.

Tony -- I believe everyone shares your sentiments. But some people just truly -are- stupid and only think about problems with problems, not solutions. Fortunately, aren't there still a few airlines out there without a flight attendants union? I think Delta comes to mind, or am I wrong about this?


Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2004-11-17 00:53:51 and read 5382 times.

Move over John Lewis! Stand forward Patrica Friend who in my opinoin sounds like a real AFL-CIO commie. I hope they all strike so that they can be replaced with non union employees.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Frontiers4ever
Posted 2004-11-17 01:08:26 and read 5320 times.

If they strike they might as well start looking for a new job. They will fold and fold faster then a poker play with horrible cards.

-Frontiers4ever

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2004-11-17 01:20:11 and read 5271 times.

Wait. Doesn't the bankruptcy court have to approve a strike for airlines in Chap. 11? I don't think a judge overseeing UA, HA, or TZ would approve the strike, US I can't say for sure, but probably not as well.

At UA at least, the F/As aren't the only one's getting hit. Ramp and CSRs are getting hit with a $180,000 concession proposal, pilots around $189,000. Mechanics are getting $130,000 taken. Even management is taking a pay cut (15% I think), so the F/A's need to shut the hell up and do like everyone else. If they don't like it, nobody's making them stay. A F/A strike at any US airline (majors) right now, be it UA or CO, would put them out. Nobody's making money, and if they were, it wouldn't be much. Two days of no ops, bye bye airline. But going on strike, something the AFA KNOWS would put ANY US legacy airline out of business almost instananeously, is a sick and thoughtless action. Many airline employees depend on those jobs. Don't ruin it for the rest of 'em. Suck it up or leave, it's your choice.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Baw716
Posted 2004-11-17 01:28:05 and read 5232 times.

Patricia Friend needs a reality check.

What she doesn't get is the fact that there are NO alternatives but to cut costs in this current environment. If that makes people unhappy, then they are within their right to quit their jobs and make the whole thing much easier for airline managements.

If any of the rank and file of the AFA (whom I respect a great deal) support this action, then they are shooting themselves in the foot....or maybe a little higher where it is more important. This is NOT the time for any airline employee anywhere to do anything but buck up, deal with the cuts, be thankful they have a job and that their company survives. Otherwise, we are going to have a lot more unemployed flight attendants.

Hmmm, maybe Patricia Friend should be one of them. Perhaps then the AFA can get someone in charge who understands that the time to start asking for better wages/conditions are when the economic climate of the airline industry is conducive to any kind of small considerations.

This is really the dumbest idea I have heard EVER!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: JEFFLAS
Posted 2004-11-17 01:33:42 and read 5210 times.



I am all for this. The De-Regulation of the airline industry has been a total DISASTER.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Gnomon
Posted 2004-11-17 01:58:59 and read 5088 times.

With respect to the poster above who wrote of his irritation that A.net users are "pro-company" and "pro-management:"

No one here is necessarily "pro-management." I think a majority of people agree that, on balance, the management at legacy carriers has been pretty hard to love in recent years.

Rather, I think A.net users represent a good cross-section of Americans. Most Americans tend not to support labor unions, except in a small handful of industries where unions are needed to continue to do the work for which they were created last century: ensure safe working conditions at fair -- FAIR -- wages.

The American general public, for a variety of reasons, despises airline unions in particular. If you look at the American commercial landscape, you'll find few industries where unions successfully demand extra-market wages and working conditions. In other settings, the labor market takes care of itself, one way or another. At the risk of oversimplifying public opinion, I think the average worker resents those who can demand more money and better conditions than they would otherwise receive in the market.

As a result, airline unions tend to be vilified -- or at least subtly mocked -- in popular media. As early as Arthur Hailey's "Airport," ALPA has been cariacaturized as an overly powerful group of greedy, arrogant pilots. Pilots even get a bum rap in "The American President," in which the unpleasant possibility of a pilots strike in STL ruins President Shephard's Christmastime dinner plans with his girlfriend.

Antics such as today's AFA press release only perpetuate the public distaste for airline unions. I sense that most people would like to say to unionized F/As, pilots, CSAs, etc.: "You think you're underpaid? Get another job or stop bitching." That's the way the "real world" works.

[Edited 2004-11-17 02:07:42]

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Flyabunch
Posted 2004-11-17 02:03:32 and read 5059 times.

Unfortunately airline management does not have an exclusive on stupidity. Both airline management and union management need to get over this crap if they want to save these companies. Historically, the relationship between the two groups has always been an adversarial arrangement. In those companies where this foolishness has been overcome, everyone benefits. Continental is a great example in the airline business. Sadly though, there are few others.

Mike

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Ual777contrail
Posted 2004-11-17 02:13:01 and read 5012 times.

It is time to break the unions. F/A's will not break UAL, they aren't that smart to do so. They will find their lives in the air were better than working at Old Chicago's selling pizza by the slice.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2004-11-17 02:39:04 and read 4910 times.

It's approved...

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/041116/flight_attendants_strike_10.html

 Sad

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: NWADC9
Posted 2004-11-17 02:48:48 and read 4871 times.

NOW HIRING!!!

Northwest
Continental
Southwest
I-air
jetBlue
any other airline that doesn't have this FA union Big grin

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Boo25
Posted 2004-11-17 02:50:32 and read 4860 times.

Alot of you are very anti-union and anti F/A's it seems ....

Perhaps if you did the job you might understand more...

I certainly don't condone their idea of striking, but really , in the ailrine world they are treated as lowest of the low.

Most airlines employ pretty decent people as F/A's - the % that is taken on from interview is almost always quite low.

They have to be right for the job, ultra-flexible, fit , intuitive, friendly ,caring, smart looking, in good health and be able to deal with a variety of situations every day.

Unions are used to ensure they have a decent safe environment, reasonable hours , reasonable rest , reasonable accomodation, because believe me, if they didnt - the management would treat them like dogs....

Alot of goodwill is needed, you can be delayed day after day, put up with some very aggresive passengers , have multiple itinerary changes ,and with less crew onboard now you are pushed to the limit.....

Therefore a good union will ensure that your terms and conditions are satisfactory.

Perhaps in this situation , the crews have been pushed too far... if they are on a reasonable salary , then they should await these dark clouds from 09/11 to blow over.....

If there weren't unions in airlines , then you would not have decent airline crew looking after you - you would have a bunch of amateurs , and your safety would probably be comrpomised , the service lousy and nobody would care....

On the other hand if you have a passion for aviation, then support the very people who work in it and keep it alive . . but give a bit of thought to what most airline staff and crew have to put up with from those 'up top' .

Its the difference between being crew and affording to live or not.

A compromise should be sought . . . . after all i have seen some UA's pilots salaries quoted and they were absolutely obscene if true.......

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2004-11-17 03:03:52 and read 4815 times.

Boo25

You can't compare Pilots to FA's. Pilots have to go through hell to even get there, spend a hundred thousand dollars getting there and then work for 10 years flying fricken DC-8s (if their lucky) for $30K at most per year around the jungle, or even better, flying a fricken Super king Air around Papua Niugini for ten years to get their hourse up. Then if they're lucky they'll get in a F28 or or Dash 8, and then, maybe, just maybe after a good ten years of poverty in some god foresaken place, often a university degree and tens and tens of thousands of dollars of debt (often approaching 6 figures) they might get into a 737.

Comparing FA wages to Pilots is just absurd.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2004-11-17 03:05:47 and read 4803 times.

If the airline can't make money, how can they give their employees a decent salary? Instead of striking, maybe the unions should actually WORK WITH THE AIRLINE MANAGEMENT to figure out what the hell is wrong with the airline's business plan and offer INSIGHTFUL ideas on how to fix it. Is that not the best way to help your employees? Help make their employer fiscally sound? Unions have no right to say this crap because they have screwed the employees just as much as the airline has with these idiotic schemes. If the unions really want to help, then they should HELP. Strikes just make the situation worse.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Boo25
Posted 2004-11-17 03:07:19 and read 4793 times.

Yeah, but you want to see the cars in our crew carpark - the pilots ones are unreal, so obviously it pays in the medium to long run.

All i am saying is why should one person earn $400,000 , another is on $35,000 and yet they take a proportionate drop to save the company.

In the good times it is pro rata, so it shoudl be in the bad times too.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Airtran737
Posted 2004-11-17 03:11:03 and read 4768 times.

I dont think that you will see all AFA flight attendants walk the line. If they do the we here at FL are screwed, along with UA, NW, YX, US, HA, ZW, AS, HP, AE, XJ, TZ, and may others. Let US die, and the rest of us move on.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2004-11-17 03:14:39 and read 4750 times.

Pilots have the lives of sometimes over 450 souls in their hands. That takes a lot of responsibility, and if you want professionals, you must pay them. God knows Glenn Tilton shouldn't be making $750,000 a year, but he's paid for what he does. Do you really want a pilot making $25/hr flying your 747 from ORD to NRT?

Someone already described the massive debts and YEARS of hard work a pilot must go through to earn his living in the end. Some UA pilots right now make less than a 146 pilot at Air Wisconsin. Don't start with how pilots make too much. If you're going to say that, you might as well go on about how doctors make too much too. How can I compare these? They both have to go through a lot of schooling, a lot of experience, and a lot of $$$ to get their six figure jobs. Think about how much of that salary is going to paying off that debt. Sure, they have nice cars. So do sports players. Who's got the more important job? MJ or your 777 captain?

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Gnomon
Posted 2004-11-17 03:16:12 and read 4738 times.

AirTran737 --

The list of potentially affected carriers is long enough to strike fear in the hearts of all God-fearing fliers.

But I believe NW's flight attendants are represented by the PFAA, not the AFA. That's one bit of good news.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Aacun
Posted 2004-11-17 03:18:51 and read 4725 times.

Boo,

Thanks my friend. It seems that the only ones that understand crew members are crew members! My airline is not included on this list, but might as well be. I have to say, it´s very different when you get hired under a set of bad rules to having your rules changed (for the worse I must add) after you are used to doing things a certain way. And for everybody out there, I have to say this is not only a money issue. It´s an issue about regulations that govern everything from not having a meal to us provided on a 13 hour day with minimum connecting time and having to deal with customs, security, etc..... every time you go from one plane to the other; or getting to Bs Aires after a 4 hour delay, to have to drive 40 minutes to get to the hotel at noon, to sleep (right at midday) for 6 hours to get on the airplane completely alert and ready for any emergency that same night and fly all night back to the states.....

I think we need to sit and think. Everytime I see a negative comment towards F/A´s I can do nothing but wonder what was going on that day to that person. So think about this, and please dont tell me to then get out and quit my job, because I do love it, and I enjoy it!!!!!!!!!! But remember we are safety experts, and humans as well!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: N801NW
Posted 2004-11-17 03:23:13 and read 4701 times.

Gnomon:
Correct, NW's F/A's removed the Teamsters last year and formed their own, independent union, the PFAA.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2004-11-17 03:26:42 and read 4689 times.

I think we need to sit and think. Everytime I see a negative comment towards F/A´s I can do nothing but wonder what was going on that day to that person. So think about this, and please dont tell me to then get out and quit my job, because I do love it, and I enjoy it!!!!!!!!!! But remember we are safety experts, and humans as well!

Hmm, what happened to me lately? Well, both of my parents work for United. I'm going to college next year. They found out a week ago that UA wants another 11% from them, plus they want us to pay more for benefits. I'm sure you can put two and two together. F/As aren't alone, and they need to consider what they are doing to the lives of other "humans." We're all in the same boat. My parents have nowhere else to go. They have worked for United for 30 and 27 years, and now have to ride it out. If you love your job so much, take the pay cut. Striking will just hurt more people, and that won't win you any sympathy points. If anything, it will just lead more people to hate the F/As. If you want to help, take the cuts and get on with your lives. If you don't like the cuts, go work for another airline. Making your employer bleed sure as hell isn't going to get you a better salary, but rather, it will further destroy any remnants of good airline-union relations.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Aacun
Posted 2004-11-17 03:33:06 and read 4652 times.

FriendlySkies,
You need to chill dude. And if Im asked for a paycut, something that hasnt happenned yet, but if it happens, I need to sit down, put the cards on the table and figure out what next step to take...... Im very sorry about your parents. At home it was 3 of us working for Eastern at the same time, while the management/union struggle was going on. And to all of my co-workers at AFA I wish them luck, whatever road they decide to take.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2004-11-17 03:36:36 and read 4623 times.

With the lousy attitudes and crappy service on US these days, I'm not sure anyone will miss them! The first thing most pepole will say is "Well, geez, the FAs are consistently getting short sheeted by management", etc. I will be the first to agree, and can understand the attitude - but present that attitude to your management not your passengers. If you want MEA Middle East Airlines (Lebanon)">ME to keep flying your airline, then I want good service (especially since I fly first not coach), I expect nothing out of the ordinary (notice I didn't say spectacular service), I despise being ignored. When this occurs, I am the first person to send management a letter attesting to the great service and the great flight, etc. I've sent hundreds. At least be personable - you don't ahve to hold a conversation with me, but when I say hello, I expect to recieve a response! Service throughout the US airline industry has gone into the toilet for the most part over the last 10-15 years. Why? Haven't a clue - I ride on the plaes I don't fly them and I don't work for their owners. I'm a VVFF, plenty of miles to prove it, I'm treated a bit better than the standard fly once a year tourist. I pity those folks in today's flying world.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Aacun
Posted 2004-11-17 03:42:57 and read 4596 times.

ANCFlyer,

Generalizing is not good. As a F/A having received the highest passenger service award available at my company, I realize that attitude is not the same as it used to. But I must say, I dont appreciate it when I greet my passengers with a smile, and I dont even get an acknowledgement back from them. It happens every day.... Its definetely a give and take here.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2004-11-17 03:44:03 and read 4581 times.

Well said FriendlySkies!!!! Well said.

You FA's have to realise that there is only one way this could possibly be effective. that is, to have 100% of commercial jet aircraft with registrations starting with "N" to be grounded. You need ALL airlines onboard.

But dont forget, that all these massive debts..well, they're still going to have to be paid, plus new ones are going to pop up.. like accomodating stranded passengers (since you can't buy them a ticket home on another carrier), and then finally any such movement like that would ultimately require government intervention. (we;re hinting at re-regulation perhaps? I doubt the public would support any such move)

As we are talking about a democratic society with any possible service providers (as opposed to a country like France), that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

You know, if they go under, a lot of pilots for example, to get another job, would have to leave their country. Sure some would be hired through expansion of existing airlines, but, nowhere near as many as would be fired. They'd have to go somewhere like Emirates. They'd be lucky to come back to the US and see their families a few times a year.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2004-11-17 03:59:58 and read 4498 times.

AACUN: I sincerely appreciate your position. I think a passenger that doesn't use "please" and "Thank-you" ought to have a lesson in manners. I have enough miles on my ass to know that F/As have to deal with all sorts of folk - good and bad - I do not envy them at all. Perhaps I could ahve been more clear in my post. I am afraid the F/As are taking out on passengers what they are unwilling to take out on management. In plain terms, if your management sucks, don't take it out on me. That's the trend these days in my humble opinion.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2004-11-17 04:55:19 and read 4287 times.

Friendly Skies... when you speak of how pilots have sometimes 450 souls in their hands dont forget to add how the United Pilots Union negotioated to have the company downgrade paying passengers from first so those "soul holders" can fly first class when dead heading.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: RyanAFAMSP
Posted 2004-11-17 05:02:49 and read 4254 times.

It amazes me how committed so many people are on this forum to ensuring that so many people in the U.S. work for so much less money. The most appalling are all the younger people who want to work in the airline industry, but who antagonize airline workers and condemn their union activism. Don't you get it that if airline workers sell out and agree to work for nothing today that it will be all of you that work for nothing tomorrow? United's 747-400s may be beautiful but I promise you'll hate them after a lot of 16 hour days and $19,000 a year.

And how dare so many of you call flight attendants and AFA stupid. The obvious thing they're doing is building a concrete strategy to defend their jobs. The United flight attendants have a lot less power alone than they do with everyone in the industry on their side. And I can tell you that there are all night conversations with both the affiliated and independent unions tonight for an industry-wide solidarity plan. For all of you who sing the praises of the free market, this is it in action. When workers are scape goated and treated poorly, we will organize and demand our fair share.

So for all of you who work outside the industry and demand that all of us work for nothing, have fun. I hope those airport benches are comfy over Christmas when you're sleeping overnight during the strike. You can ask Santa for a better contract for the flight crew so you can go home!

Ryan

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: TonyBurr
Posted 2004-11-17 05:27:45 and read 4154 times.

So who could say that the Unions are "member" friendly? Unions are a big part of the workforce problem as illustrated by this announcements. Will the union leaders share in the lost pay during this stirke? I think not!!!!!!!!!

This is really intelligent - dah!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: RyanAFAMSP
Posted 2004-11-17 05:48:49 and read 4085 times.

Just a clarification-

Every single union leader at the airlines in question is a flight attendant for that airline. AFA is a rank and file union. That means you get your airline paycheck and the union reimburses the airline for a union leader's lost time. Only the AFA officers in Washington and a handful of staff work for AFA itself. So for example at United there are roughly 50 elected AFA officials. All of them have taken the concessions that every other flight attendant has taken. If an unsuccessful strike were to take place, they would be unemployed along with everyone else.

Union leaders actually usually make less money than non-elected coworkers, as they are not paid the non-taxed perdiem pay that boosts flight attendant paychecks. So for all of you with Jimmy Hoffa misconceptions, realize that flight attendants in 2004 are a lot different than the mob in 1963.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: RogerThat
Posted 2004-11-17 05:55:22 and read 4062 times.

The obvious thing they're doing is building a concrete strategy to defend their jobs.

That should read: destroy their jobs.

Airlines produce a commodity product and he who has the lowest costs wins. If the carriers can survive a strike, they will be better off when they replace these bitter top-of-the-pay-scale types with low-cost new entrants.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2004-11-17 06:06:47 and read 4030 times.

RyanAFAMSP

We called them stupid, because we'd all like there to still be a United Airlines Inc. this time next year.

Think about it. Lets say you all do go on strike. You get all the other airline unions in on it too. Now DL is still gonna be flying. Jetblue are still gonna be flying. Indy is still gonna be flying. If the strike starts to last any length of time, they're going to expand. If that happens, there is gonna be less room for everybody when/if you all decided to return to work.

Figure out the rest.

LH

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: TonyBurr
Posted 2004-11-17 06:06:49 and read 4030 times.

They actually pay these unions leaders who make such good business plan statements ? WOW!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2004-11-17 06:25:14 and read 3981 times.

RodgerAFSMSP: interesting response. But remember we in this post are not all young people looking for jobs in aviation. Many such as myself are business travelers who happen to be aviation enthusiast. As for your comment on antagonisms toward airline employees. Its because those airline employees who hide behind union curtain basically want to do the least amount of work for the most amount of pay. Your former employer United, employees', are the biggest offenders. There's nothing worse as a business traveler than sitting during those often delays listening to how some grandmother f/a has been wronged buy the company. Maybe the f/a's should have joined in the ESOP then they could have straighten it all out and none of this would have happened. Its time for the old guard union aviation workers to step aside.
As for sleeping on benches during Christmas... think again as many of those potential strikers have Christmas bills too... they will cross. Then again travelers can always drive.. its less hassle than dealing with the current disgruntled airline workers.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: RyanAFAMSP
Posted 2004-11-17 06:26:32 and read 3981 times.

Lufthansa,

We get that you still wants there to be a United Airlines. Believe me no one wants that more than the people who actually work there.

But United has to be more than an object of desire for those on airliners.net. The airplanes are beautiful. We think so too. But there are 200,000 families who depend on these airplanes to make their livelihoods. If these concessions pass, people will be working in unsafe, unhealthy, undignified conditions. We refuse to passively sit by while that happens. This is why we are planning an industry-wide general strike in the unfortunate event that management choses to procede with its plan.

Oh and just a quick correction. Indy is in AFA. The only non-union airlines of size are Skywest, Frontier, jetBlue, and of course mama Delta.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2004-11-17 06:30:34 and read 3961 times.

The only non-union airlines of size are Skywest, Frontier, jetBlue, and of course mama Delta.

Funny.. I've changed from United to Delta and the folks over there seem very safe, dignified and healthy.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2004-11-17 06:41:07 and read 3913 times.

Chgoflyer - You Said . . .
"There's nothing worse as a business traveler than sitting during those often delays listening to how some grandmother f/a has been wronged buy the company" and "Then again travelers can always drive.. its less hassle than dealing with the current disgruntled airline workers."

Exactly . . . nothing worse than listening to a couple old battleaxes in the front galley sniveling and bitch and whine from ORD-SFO about how the company or this person or that person or all of the above has screwed them over. I'll often drive rather than fly (when I'm in the lower 48 states) rather than deal with that chit.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Sfo777
Posted 2004-11-17 06:44:27 and read 3902 times.

Ryan - there may be 200,000 families of flight attendants, but they are tens to hundreds of millions who will be affected if you shut down UAL for good and irreversably harm the other airlines, resulting in more bankruptcies.

Why doesn't your union use their expertise to show the managers how to fix their negative balance sheet without bringing your salaries down to those of their competitors and without changing work rules. I'm sure all would be interested in hearing any options they have not discovered on their own. Or use your union finances as collateral to help these bankrupt airlines exit bankruptcy.

Pensions are over in all major US industries, all successful companies are going to 401K plans. They aren't financial viable in any industry, you are not being singled out in any of this!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2004-11-17 06:45:20 and read 3898 times.

Your right ANC... driving is not as bad as once thought. I took my travel budget and leased a nice car and im on the road. Just around the mid west. I still fly to Denver and Ca but hell I just drove from Chicago to Pittsburgh and its not bad.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: TonyBurr
Posted 2004-11-17 06:45:43 and read 3896 times.

RyanAFAMSP you are correct when you say that F/A of 2004 are not the same as 1963, but we will NOT go there!!!! Strike if you want, but don't be shocked when there is not an airline to go back to. Strike, and it all ends.

I do not disagree with you that management has been unfair in the cutbacks. I would love to see management at UA get the less real income that F/A's now receive. Then they can ask for the F/A's to cut, but they won't take it themselves.

The typical Union approach will be the death knell. Unions had their purpose at one time, but they who fought the oppressive management of yester year have now become the oppresive and destructive monster they were founded to combat.

I do not blame the poor pay of F/A's for the troubles at the airlines, I totaly blame management. But the Union approach is wrong!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Ual777contrail
Posted 2004-11-17 06:47:13 and read 3890 times.

Sad part is I haven't heard anything about Tilton and his boys taking pay cuts. Now I am NOT for the F/A's, for their duties since air travel began have slowly decreased to the point you get nasty people serving you drinks at 30k feet.

Most if not all airlines are top heavy, the cuts NEED to start from the top!!! If they (CEO's,VP's) have taken cuts? Then I apologize for my rant, I haven't heard crap about the big people at the top. Pretty much live and/or lead by example.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2004-11-17 06:48:42 and read 3878 times.

And driving's often quicker too - what with the delays - expecially at ORD - and the TSA joke.

When I lived in DC and had business in NYC or PHL I never flew. Ever. Amtrak was the hot ticket (didn't drive then because of the I-95 death-trap interstate). Even US Air Shuttle, every hour on the hour - more or less - took twice as long as the train.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2004-11-17 06:49:13 and read 3876 times.

Well RyanAFAMSP

These airlines are enough. Think about it. A quick call to Condor, Mytravel (who could well do with some cash paying business) Air Atlanta Icelandic, even Air Canada (some of those A/C in storage) and within a week or two i could have a fleet of 747s, A330s, 757s and 767s wet-leased and flying about the place. If i were to upgrade all JFK/LAX etc services to 747s we'd soon fit everybody in. Also there is a whole stack of 737-200s in the desert which wouldn't take that long to return to flight-status. But just the excess capacity in the charter business over the pond alone would be enough to get by. DL would be in a position to charge a premium because a lot of people would now be desperate to fly, it would book a lot of international PAX on KLM and Air France etc, and switch as many widebodies to domestic service as possible.

Also, given that this is likely to be a time of national crisis, What is to stop say, NW leasing DC-10s to Delta, and the USAF crewing them? KC-10 pilots should be able to fly the DC-10. Federal Express may want to also get in on the act, since it has flight crews that probably have low enough hrs to help out and could soon fly 727s, A300s A310s, DC-10s, and MD-11s.

Obviously flights wouldn't be operating at full capacity, but, the point is that it wouldn't be impossible to get a sizeable volume of people moving again. If the country comes to a stand still for a bit because people can't travel, things will soon be done. Oh, and don't forget, because this is the USA, and if its economy goes down, so does a lot of other countries, I wouldn't be surprised to see other countries offering to help. Congress could allow Cabotage rights to International Airlines for example. They did once already in the 1960s...QF carried pax between HNL and SFO.

So in that case, every LH, KL BA, QF, CX, SQ, JL etc etc widebody is another potential source of seats. For example, lets say KLM continue their AMS-houston service to DFW. There is a 747 return each day to DFW.

Cathay already did this inside the Philipinnes when PAL shutdown for a while back in the late 90s. After your sentors are stuck at airports, I'm sure they'd pass the legislation to allow this as a temporary measure.

Think about everything else and not just your wages. This industry must and will go on, with or without your help.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Ual777contrail
Posted 2004-11-17 07:05:13 and read 3835 times.

RYANAFA,
Please enlighten me, how are you going to be working unsafe, unhealthy, undignified conditions? Explain this to me. Here is something I really find funny. Your job group has been sitting on their thumbs for a decade. Passed up pay and stock in the ESOP, threatened chaos, and UAL won, now all of a sudden your intelligent job group " refuses to passively sit by while that happens. This is why we are planning an industry-wide general strike in the unfortunate event that management chooses to proceed with its plan." The pensions are gone little buddy, so get use to it, and even if you try to shut the airline down, and you wont, you WILL take a pay cut.


And who's brain is your job group using now? You guys, and I use that loosely, have never used your brains, agreed to a **10** year contract, and bitch once everyone else's is up and receive hefty raises. Explain this to me, you sound like a big liberal, pissed that Bush is here for another 4 years so lets use a reason to finally piss down Tiltons back. Explain Ryan, if you need time to have a few of your fellow co-workers help you with a reply then I can wait.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Wingspan
Posted 2004-11-17 10:04:02 and read 3575 times.

ENOUGH.

I am T I R E D of reading posts by individuals who have no idea whatsoever of what working in the airline industry entails. Most everyone here loves aviation, and it is my sincerest hope that those who share that passion convey it, no matter what their background. However, A word of advice to those "aviation enthusiats" who feel they are qualified to intelligibly comment on airline labor relations and management matters: Unless you are/have been in the airline industry (as in EMPLOYED in), do not believe, even for a second, that you can provide knowledgeable insight. Just because you fly on an airline with some degree of frequency qualifies you to do one thing and one thing only... comment on the service you received as a passenger during that time. And my friends, THAT IS IT!!!

No one outside this industry can comment on what it is like to have a
C A R E E R in this business only to see it come to a bare-bones gutting. And that's not exclusive to any one group or airline- Nearly every employee of an established legacy carrier finding themself in the industry at this time is literally fighting for their livelyhood. Should the efforts they take to keep their jobs (or their dignity, in some cases) be falted because the rules of the game have changed in the eleventh hour? How would you like to have your pension effectively erased? I feel thankful that I at least have my youth. Many employees don't.

The stark reality of the current climate of this industry presents challenges that are without question daunting, but those management teams that partner with their employees have proven far superior to those who have chosen the "us against them" mentality. A basic of mgmt 101- If you fail to recognize the importance of the employee in maintaining and growing your enterprise, it won't be around for long. And this goes for anyone, including LCCs. Couple this with another pompous fallacy of poor management teams- believing that employees in general do not have the organizational understanding or education to effectively understand the direction of a company or provide meaningful input- will diminish any capability of management very quickly (A subtle HINT about working in the airline business- MISmanagement is FAR more common than effective guidance). Given this framework, while salary reductions are without question inevitable, would you wish to see your once proud C A R E E R brought to a nearly pathetic end because of a horde of missteps that could have been averted by sound decision making practices in the first place? This is the reality of these employees, regardless of workgroup. "Aviation enthusiasts" who wished to pursue their passion into their career, and one that had at least some degree of stability until not so long ago.

As far as this instance is concerned, what would you do if you were in their shoes? Do I support the idea? No. Its wishful thinking on their part in an unforgiving business environment that will replace them, not to mention a huge problem with the bankruptcy laws. Do I blame them? No. Their options have nearly eroded to sadly watch what little they have fade away. Do I believe that many individuals on this site need to revisit what they are qualified to comment on? Absolutely!!! I wish all of you well in your personal endeavors, and pray that you never have to entertain what emotions these employees feel every day.


Regards,

Wingspan

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Maersk737
Posted 2004-11-17 11:39:14 and read 3466 times.

Thanks Wingspan....


Cheers


Peter

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Nwfltattendant
Posted 2004-11-17 11:46:24 and read 3453 times.

Glad NWA F/A arent represented by AFA.

 Nuts.. this crap is crazy..  Nuts

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Bicoastal
Posted 2004-11-17 13:25:54 and read 3308 times.

Ual777contrail....to answer your question all managers and executives at UAL will take the same pay and benefits cut that is being PROPOSED for the labor groups.

I hope in the negotiation process that IS REQUIRED before UAL can ask the bankruptcy judge for permission to impose the cuts, that the unions offer independently verifiable alternatives to the cuts. What would the unions do differently? Simply saying get rid of existing management won't eliminate the overcapacity in the industry and demand by passengers for lower and lower airfares. Can unions do something about the price of oil? Can they eliminate competition from LCCs?

So instead of saying, "NO", let's hear some suggestions from union leaders. I'm open to good suggestions.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2004-11-17 13:33:56 and read 3294 times.

Wingspan

You've forgotten one thing. We are the customer. And ultimately, it is us who get to decide who wins, and who looses.

You see, what you all keep on forgetting is that there are too many planes in service in the USA. Which means somebody has to go. All of that strain you guys are talking about, is a result of resisting going.

Yes is sad if you once had things wonderful and now they're shit. Times change. Once there were lots of good jobs as bank tellers, who we could only see during business hours five days a week. Now we've got Automatic Teller Machines.

Yes its sad. Very. Yes its not fair. The strange thing about all of this is, however, you don't here people at Jetblue complaining. Why? Expectations.

If i start off paying somebody, say $25, 000 per year, and i give them bonuses due to could performance etc (thats a 'conditional element of their pay) they're probably going to be really happy if they take home $32 000. However, if i give them $35 000, when they were previously paid $50, 000, to do the same job, sure they're gonna be pissed. Its simple basic pyscology really.

The thing is, the Jetblue's of the world have realised this and taken advantage of it. Part of their business plan is that you do feel the frustration that you feel now, because, they're hoping that your service levels will decline when compared to theirs, making them look all the better.

[Edited 2004-11-17 14:03:03]

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Jumpseat70
Posted 2004-11-17 13:42:13 and read 3275 times.

JetBlue's time is coming. Trust me it is coming. Everyone has to pay the piper.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-11-17 13:46:02 and read 3269 times.

>Is there a legal way to get rid of these Unions?<

No, and there should not be.

>Glad NWA F/A arent represented by AFA.

.. this crap is crazy.. <

NWfltattendant, you should know better than that. They have to have the membership authorize a strike action in order for an arm (a group that works at 1 airline) can strike. They are not talking about striking against CO, FL, HP, AQ, AS, etc. They are talking about authorizing a strike against airlines that are trying to not just cut their pay, but cut everything.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Braniff727
Posted 2004-11-17 16:41:15 and read 2889 times.

This kills me. I'm not anti-union, but I am anti-stupid union.

Unions are a business. They collect their dues from their members and the people that run them reap the benefits.

This insane act is to shut down all commercial flights in the US. Shall we reflect on the last time the entire US airline industry was shut down and what effect that had on not only the airlines, but also the economy?

Not a smart move. This union, which to me cannot see beyond its membership dues, is asking for airlines to shut down, and their customers to look for permanent, alternate forms of transportation.

While I understand times are rough, especially at US and UA, throwing a temer tantrum and not working is not going to fix your respective companies or the industry as a whole.

What is going to fix the problems that exist is stepping back, looking at the big picture and making changes to the way you do business. The "that's the way we've always done it" mentality is not going to work anymore.

I do wish all airline employees the best. You front-liners have a thankless job most of the time. Most of you love what you do, and I know it hurts to see the industry like this, but you have the choice to either make it work, or suck the last life out of your companies. It's in your hands now.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2004-11-17 16:55:33 and read 2875 times.

Hello all, time for my venom-filled posting on this god-awful topic.

First of all,

No Airline, No jobs, simple as that. The flying public controls you're lives, not your pathetic unions. Now a bunch of you losers (especially F/A's) are going to flame me and hide behind your "you've never been in the industry" crap. Wrong. I have been a flight attendant, ramp worker, gate agent, management, etc. All I can say is that Im not pro-company or pro-union. It depends on the circumstances. I do not fly ANY AFA-represented airlines, nor do I fly DL because of their greedy pilots, who FINALLY took a cut. I am still in the industry, but I do not support either side when it comes to airlines such as UA or US. For all that it's worth, these are two airlines that DESERVE to go under.

Now, I am a member of a 38,000-member strong travel group and we just signed a petition among all members to not fly AFA-represented airlines because of Patricia Friend's little announcement. This is not some ordinary travel group that pays the tourist fares, mind you. We always pay top dollar-first class fare for all our 450+ trips a year. Now think about this, how much money does one first class fare bring in? Multiply that by our 38,000 strong membership, and any airline that doesn't get a piece of this is going to be hurting. Like I said before, we (as the flying public) control how your jobs will end up, not your unions.

Like I also stated above, I do work in the industry, and I will gladly support any airline that is using its employees to the best advantage to get through this god-forsaken crisis, and I also applaud employees who step up to WORK WITH management. Remember, these are your lives, your not in Communist Russia, if you don't like what's being dealt, get another job and stop bitching about not sending your kids off to Harvard anymore.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2004-11-18 02:09:54 and read 2705 times.

Again, my apologies if I offended any user on this forum...

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Markdirk
Posted 2004-11-18 03:26:09 and read 2670 times.

To NWADC9,

Please get your facts straight, NWA is not hiring flight attendants, nor is Continental, Independance air may or may not be because they have not passed their proving runs on the Airbus and have lost their loan guarantee for the aircrafts, jet blue maybe. I know you won't like this, but it's the truth, it only takes minute to look up their websites to find out.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Milesrich
Posted 2004-11-18 04:38:57 and read 2632 times.

The reason Unions are always under attack here, is that this board is a haven for spoiled twenty something kids and teenagers who were born with silver spoons in their mouths, and have never had to work to earn money to pay rent, or a house payment, or a car payment, in their lives. That is why they spend their time claiming various labor groups are overpaid. Their parents are the gluttons of society, and quite frankly, they make me sick. I was "born with a silver spoon" in my mouth. My grandparents came to this country around 100 years ago, to escape the Pogroms of Tsarist Russia. They came with nothing, and they worked hard, and made good. But they never forgot where they came from. Unfortunately, it may take another Great Depression to wake these slugs up.

If the F/A's at US and UA go out on strike if their CBA's are declared void by the Bankruptcy Judge, they may be committing occupational suicide, but what other choice do they have? To work for poverty level wages? To surrender their retirement? To give up their medical insurance?


So many here think a flight attendant is nothing but an airborne waitress. Well guess what, they were never hired to be waitresses. Most have college educations. The first stewardesses for United were R.N.'s. Those men and women are there to make sure that you passengers are safe. They work 80-90 hours a month, but that is block time. Often, they work 14 hour days and get paid for six hours. And the travel, its wonderful. Layovers in exotic Toledo, or Cedar Rapids, or Mobile.

Before you start counting someone else's paycheck, go earn your own!

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Willbdsp
Posted 2004-11-18 04:51:49 and read 2619 times.

I have two questions:


1) What date is the earliest that F/A's can strike?

2) What happens to those of us who are holding tickets and are affected by the strike (if it happens)?

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: RyanAFAMSP
Posted 2004-11-18 05:04:46 and read 2600 times.

I love the brainiac that, in order to combat the potential AFA strike, is now engaging in a boycott of the AFA carriers! Way to go! That sure will smooth things out at UA and US! We need more heros like you WesternA318.

To willbdsp:

Flight Attendants are legally allowed to strike as soon as the bankruptcy courts abrogate the contract of any carrier in question. Everyone else may legally honor the strike, as secondary boycotts are legal under the Railway Labor Act of 1926.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: JeffLAS
Posted 2004-11-18 05:11:47 and read 2595 times.


So when is "the day" supposed to be? Or is this just more hot air? Geez.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Wingspan
Posted 2004-11-18 05:32:04 and read 2561 times.

Let’s see, where do I start…

You've forgotten one thing. We are the customer. And ultimately, it is us who get to decide who wins, and who looses.

What kind of moronic response is this to my original post? Where in my post did I remotely question the traveling public’s choice in choosing an air travel option? Enlighten me, please, because right now it sounds like you have no logical arguments whatsoever to present in the topic at hand- airline labor.

You see, what you all keep on forgetting is that there are too many planes in service in the USA. Which means somebody has to go. All of that strain you guys are talking about, is a result of resisting going…If i start off paying somebody, say $25, 000 per year, and i give them bonuses due to could performance etc (thats a 'conditional element of their pay) they're probably going to be really happy if they take home $32 000. However, if i give them $35 000, when they were previously paid $50, 000, to do the same job, sure they're gonna be pissed. Its simple basic pyscology really.

The thing is, the Jetblue's of the world have realised this and taken advantage of it. Part of their business plan is that you do feel the frustration that you feel now, because, they're hoping that your service levels will decline when compared to theirs, making them look all the better.


Thank you for your valuable insight, oh wise armchair quarterback from a foreign land. As I said in my original post, If aren’t (or haven't been) employed in this industry, you cannot intelligibly comment on matters. However for pure entertainment- using your ethereal logic- let me guess how an airline of your endorsement succeeds (At the macro level): Pay spartan wages, acquire the financing for new aircraft, create the basics of a viable network, and develop a few gimmicks, such as new IFE toys. Wow, what a great idea- but wait! We already have such a darling- Jetblue. Just a few minor issues though to the long term viability of this great idea. Those sparkling new aircraft- they won’t stay new forever, and will require a higher level of care, and greatly increased costs as time progresses. And the labor you employ- will get more expensive (do you actually believe that those CASMs will stay low forever?)- NO workforce, regardless of company, will continue to work at the same pay rate for any length of time in a profitable company- this is the REAL world, not the one in the classroom, Amigo. And by the way, while they do have a good customer base, it cannot touch that of more established LCCs, like Southwest. The industry can match this darling’s capacity wherever its truly challenged, and eventually manipulate the supply to eliminate their impact in any market (want proof?- ask why your darling no longer serves Atlanta). What looks great on paper has a long way to go before successful implementation. When you actually have worked in such an environment from either a managerial or operational perspective, having the experience with you as a result, reflect on the thoughts you have presented here and see if they are even close to what reality dictates.

WesternA318,

I won’t take offense to your statement, but I would like to point out several things, because your post is screaming for me to do so. 1- I am not an F/A, and 2- I am not rich. I can’t speak for you, but I never hoped to become rich in this business, just have a decent existence in the pursuit a passion. I feel terrible for those of the same mind frame who must deal with literal hell at a much later time in their life. Their recent actions, both in this instance and with other unions from other workgroups, speak to a sadness and desperation in a time that no one thought would occur. Fair? No. Just reality, and a prayer that this mess stops soon.

It goes without saying that the public ultimately dictates the success of a carrier. But labor problems are something that, while in the public eye, are an internal matter. It is not “crap” to say that an outsider viewpoint is irrelevant because quite frankly, if you aren’t dealing with the situation, you can’t say what you’ll do. And judging from your age profile, you haven’t been around for all that long, even compared to me. You should however, be applauded for understanding the role of a proactive management team coexisting with its employees.

Now to the other thing I am curious about from your post…

I am a member of a 38,000-member strong travel group and we just signed a petition among all members to not fly AFA-represented airlines because of Patricia Friend's little announcement. This is not some ordinary travel group that pays the tourist fares, mind you. We always pay top dollar-first class fare for all our 450+ trips a year. Now think about this, how much money does one first class fare bring in? Multiply that by our 38,000 strong membership, and any airline that doesn't get a piece of this is going to be hurting. Like I said before, we (as the flying public) control how your jobs will end up, not your unions.

Either this is a truly pathetic way of trying to impose some sense of legitimacy to your viewpoint, or this supposed “group” is comprised of a legion of fools. So, all 38,000 have signed a petition to be inconvenienced en masse in the short time since this has transpired? Interesting. So, your group ALWAYS pays top dollar for 450 trips a year- gee, sounds like you worked out a great deal with the carriers you travel on. Funny- I know of several groups of AROUND 50 that can bargain for better. Here’s a thought- if you cannot present a logical argument, don’t present a blatant falsehood. And by the way, show a news release of this “group”, and I’ll be happy to revisit that opinion.

Milesrich,

To your entire post, amen. =)


Wingspan

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: AAgent
Posted 2004-11-18 06:01:36 and read 2535 times.

Enough posturing. If the A.F.A. Union really wants to strike, then by all means DO IT ALREADY! Just make sure that you're prepared for the consequences...a.k.a. the unemployment line. You do of course understand that it's very unlikely that you're going to "strike" your airline back into good financial health wherein they're able to offer you some of the goodies of years gone by. Get with the program or get a new job. I work in the industry and I've been through layoffs and the rehiring process, lost seniority, etc. I pay through the nose for insurance and I've taken pay cuts even though I've never made a lot of money to begin with! It's just that I have this affliction...I love this crazy airline business and I'm willing to make the sacrifices necessary to keep those proud birds soaring. Are you?

Respectfully,
AAgent

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Wingspan
Posted 2004-11-18 06:24:57 and read 2515 times.

It's just that I have this affliction...I love this crazy airline business and I'm willing to make the sacrifices necessary to keep those proud birds soaring. Are you?

Loving this business is not a bad thing at all =-). Regardless of whether you're a pilot, F/A, CSA, MX, ramper, etc., the love of the business is strong. And most anyone would make sacrifices for any company they work for- no one is saying that they wouldn't. The only question (not necessarily weighted toward union or management) is what is your personal limit- when do you officially reach your breaking point, and its a question only you can answer. This is a roller coaster which will hopefully have a happy ending for all involved, but most realists probably know better. Best wishes to everyone, and a hope for blue skies with great visibility tomorrow.

Regards,

Wingspan.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: William
Posted 2004-11-18 06:55:07 and read 2500 times.

Good replies Milesrich and Wingspan. Frequentflyer or not,we do not know what it is like work behind the scenes.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 2004-11-18 07:40:26 and read 2469 times.

Wingman

a few things. Firstly, Unless you are from Scandinavia, you're foreign on this board. This site is Swedish!

Concerning your comments about jetblue... They're cost per availible seat mile won't really be much affected. Why? Well, for a start, those staff aren't going to get all that senior. Pilots may, but FA's etc will simply be replaced. Most of their staff only have the intention of doing it for a few years. They don't expect to be with Jetblue for 40 years.

As for the aircraft, well, Ryanair operated a very successful LCC operation with old 732s for years, that required much maintenance yet still succeeded. I wouldnt be surprised to see jetblue start phasing older A320s out after their first D check. By that stage Airbus will probably have a NG A320 on offer.
The customer has the final say because if you guys are unrealible, have a bad attitude or simply charge more and we can't see the value in it, we simply go and pay somebody else to do the job. That's why the customer has the final say. You may not realise it but your labour is central to that.

Lastly... UNION people, tell us all exactly how you plan to achieve all those old conditions. Instead of screaming for them... tell us HOW a strike would succeed. How would it enable the company to pay , and stay competitive? How would you ensure long-term sustainability of your conditions? Part of that is that your companies can actually afford to pay those conditions. So tell us all, exactly how this action would achieve that!



[Edited 2004-11-18 07:54:40]

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Baw716
Posted 2004-11-18 08:13:09 and read 2438 times.

OK everyone....let's take a deep breath.

First, this strike is not going to happen. The millisecond anyone starts to do anything akin to a strike action, there will be so many TROs in place, the attorneys will make millions.

The President will step in ultimately, because a strike of that scope could potentially derail whatever economic recovery may be going on and he will simply issue an executive order and there will be an immediate 30 day cooling off period imposed, during which time they will pull both sides together and give them both a serious head bashing, which will hopefully put this issue to bed.

So this whole discussion is a little bit moot from the perspective of any potential impact to the transportation system.

This does NOT mean that are not issues that need to be resolved with the flight attendants. For that matter, there are issues that affect all airline employees right now. However, this said, this is not the time for the flight attendant union to do something so incredibly stupid, principally from an emotional response to what is happening to them (as well as other airline employees). As I have said before, this is a time for everyone to come together to get through this crisis, not polarize the parties involved further and force airlines out of business...which will put more than just flight attendants out of a job.

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Wingspan
Posted 2004-11-18 09:27:12 and read 2421 times.

Firstly, Unless you are from Scandinavia, you're a foreign on this board. This site is Swedish!

The gods honest truth is that I'm a American of Scandanavian heritage, 4th generation, relatives from both Sweden and Denmark. And as hilarious as it is, that's the truth! =-))

Now, without question, if there is a superior product (deemed superior by comparison to other offerings in the marketplace), the public will certainly let us know who has it. To most individuals, price is the major driving force, followed closely by quality of service, and on-time performance. (This is a major simplification for the sake of discussion, because certain segments of the traveling public will value one above all else). Just because a carrier has labor issues doesn't mean their product is shot to hell, but it certainly doesn't help with intangibles such as morale. This is where a quality management team with a true sense of diplomacy is needed to help mend the ties. I believe trust to be of paramount importance in these matters.

I never said at any time that a strike would be a good thing. My original post reflected that. And I'm not the guy with the pro-union t-shirt on, either. What I am saying is that this is a no-win situation, period. The mess that we are in has no easy answers, and can certainly not be eliminated overnight, regardless of how many cutbacks are implemented. Keep in mind, however, It is not the job of any unionized (or non-unionized) workgroup to come up with the strategic focus for the leadership of the enterprise- that responsibility rests with the management of the entity. In this instance, these people literally have no choice (to all who say no airline- no job- give it a rest, they know this, and for most it amounts to practically a symbolic vote and will ultimately mean nothing) other than to stand dizzied against a tidal wave which will erase the career they have known. I would like you to consider this before you move to the next thought of the mind before reverting to pure-economist default mindset.

Now, to a new, fresh LCC mindset that I presume you embrace. No one expects to be there 40 years. Fine. But do you think you can shuffle the deck lickety split every two to five years with top notch folks in all workgroups (pilots excluded)? Keep in mind that if this mindset is employed, a corporate culture starts to develop, a culture that can very easily infer that there is no chance of promotion, no tangible raises, no anknowledgement for a job well done, just a paycheck and a few fringe benefits until you get a "real job". As much as some would salivate at the idea, there aren't enough college students around to fill these jobs in that manner. Right now, that culture is slowly beginning to root itself at select carriers, and once it gets in, it will be nearly impossible to get out without increasing employee rewards. Want something to adversely influence your product- how about someone who doesn't care? Frankly, over anything else, this will be the first undoing of any upstart LCC without forward vision.

As for the leather seats and TVs, as of today they are superior to other offerings from most carriers, but I predict they will become commonplace as most carriers in the industry continue to modernize their interiors over the next decade.

As far as A/C are concerned, I don't think they'll make it to the next round of big A/C purchases twenty years from now. They are in danger of growing far too quickly, and overcapacity will hit hard when things start to level off. Throw in the continuing growth of competitors and the eventual remergence of those legacy carriers left, I don't think they'll be a dominant player.

No matter how charismatic the CEO may be, remember that it will be a team collaboration which will ultimately ensure the fate of the carrier. Hopefully the future will be shaped by carriers with simplistic fleets, encompassing route networks, effective alliance partnerships, competent management, and fair wages. The last two factors negate the need for any union presence, period.


Regards,

Wingspan

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: RogerThat
Posted 2004-11-18 17:23:02 and read 2334 times.

...do you think you can shuffle the deck lickety split every two to five years with top notch folks in all workgroups (pilots excluded)?

Yes I do, because its been done here in the US of A before and is done in other parts of the world.

The Stewardess Position was not always considered a do-it-until-retirement job. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, the girls did it for a few years until they found some guy to marry. If they didn't, the carrier fired them before they turned 30. Didn't have to worry about topping out the pay scales.

Airlines require highly skilled positions such as pilots and mechanics who cannot be easily replaced. That's why the make the well deserved big bucks.

The days of union cartels holding the carriers hostage are over, as this lame industry wide strike proves.

God speed new entrants .... keep those fares lows and people flying.


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Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Ual777contrail
Posted 2004-11-18 17:42:09 and read 2319 times.

Roger that,
Don't be that naive, Pilots, and yes, Mechanics can be replaced. Because if their unions they are not. To compare F/A's to the other two would be foolish, but just to bring you down to earth, the first two are as expendable as toilet paper, to throw any comment into the ring, the pilot is the only one who is hardest to replace. A strong union, and money make it difficult.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: RogerThat
Posted 2004-11-18 18:52:06 and read 2290 times.

Contrails,

Your sentence structure offers an excellent opportunity for improvement. I really can't figure out what you are saying, other than I am naive.


Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Sleepyflyboy
Posted 2004-11-18 21:46:53 and read 2232 times.

Wingspan.... You have just completely restored my faith in these forums. Its fun and all to watch the people who have no clue what's going on in the industry and have never even considered working in the industry to criticize the hard working people in the airlines. Its funny in many of these posts because the people who shouldn't be commenting on inside airline politics are being affirmed and reaffirmed by the same self glorified airline commentators. Thanks for your intelligent and well worded posts.

UAL777Contrail - the last post sounded like yoda... "flight attendants wages cut we must!!!" j/k I understand your love of United but the unions are representing the hard working people at United and they don't want to see it die but they have to stand up and fight or else the airlines will walk all over them. They will be the only ones taking a pay cut while management finds loopholes to keep their high $$$ salaries. Something had to happen... I don't believe that this will come down to strike but I do believe a strike will be in order if the airlines continue demanding more of their employees.

And also to keep hiring, training, moving, and then keeping the pilots and mechanics happy you are looking at enormous turnover costs. If you only expected to keep a pilot employed for 4 years... It would never fly. To train a pilot just in a full motion sim you are looking at around 10,000 per pilot unless the airlines own their own sim which is unlikely. The human resources departments at the airline would have to be increased.... Which means more management to already top heavy airlines. Pilots and most mechanics get paid moving expenses... That adds up if your only keeping a person around for 4 yrs. And usually when you are hired by an airline you are on probation for your first year or so and this usually means you don't have a set schedule but are on call.... I don't know many people that would want to deal with that every 4 yrs. so if unions weren't in the picture you would still need to keep the turnover very low among the mechanics and pilots. I don't know much about the mechanics training by the airlines but I do know they are highly skilled well trained individuals... I don't think its cheap.

Mike

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: Ual777contrail
Posted 2004-11-19 06:40:42 and read 2141 times.

Well sleepyflyboy, let me explain what I was saying before. Pilots are the hard ones to get rid of, and I am not talking because of training, or any of the other B.S. Mechanics can be replaced, and are in fact being replaced. UAL will do away with several thousand mechanics this year, and most likely next year. That is called outsourcing, Their jobs, and days are limited. Pilots can be replaced as well. Now that being said, you being a pilot will most likely disagree with me, but you to can be replaced as well.

Many pilots have been laidoff in the last few years, they were replaced by CRJ pilots making half their pay. So yes, even you can be replaced. This world holds no guarantees, and with the high price of fuel, airlines are giving a lot of their routes to express carriers, in my opinion that is being replaced.

ROGER THAT,
Sorry you couldn't comprehend after the 2nd sentence. Just let it go, your response wouldn't have been worth it anyways.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: MxCtrlr
Posted 2004-11-19 08:48:42 and read 2115 times.

I can understand the frustration being felt by the union members (and, as the union members lose money, so does the union itself) but losing 20%, while tough to take, is better than losing 100%.

My feelings towards unions (and I was a shop steward and dues-paying union member previously) is they are the opposite side of the same coin with management. Unions are, in and of themselves, big businesses. They make money on how much their members make - The more (or less) their members make, the more (or less) they themselves make.

That being said, I think the AFA is pursuing a foolhardy position here - trying to be something they're not - a powerful union. If National Airlines, Eastern Airlines and TWA proved anything to the unions, it is their right to self-preservation. If the AFA goes on strike, rest assured, the affected airlines will hire scab F/A's and be right back at it - with lower pay rates, sanctioned by the bankruptcy courts (as appropriate). The losers will be the striking F/A's and the AFA.

Bad move, Pat Friend. Very bad move!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool

Topic: RE: F/A's Call For A Nationwide Strike
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2004-11-21 01:56:17 and read 2063 times.

MXctrlr,

I completely agree with you 1000%. Unions are big businesses themselves now.


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