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Topic: ? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2004-12-15 03:45:02 and read 7344 times.

Does anyone have a link or some info about WHY?, seeing as it's been years after this event. On 3 July 1988 an Iranair A300 was shot down in the Persian Gulf, near the Straits of Hormuz.

All the searches i come up with just explain the event, not the reason.

Was it really a mistake made by the US ship crew? Or was there something or some people onboard that were on a list ?

I'm quite curious, because i wanted to do this as a paper in college but never found any info, so i bring it up here, perhaps someone knows?

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N328KF
Posted 2004-12-15 03:49:50 and read 7310 times.

Pilotaydin:

Short and to the point:

Some Iranian gunboats attacked some Persian Gulf oil rigs. U.S. Navy vessels started chasing and attacking them. Adrenaline was high, and here comes this Iran Airbus A300 on a landing run (which, unfortunately, can look a lot like an attack run) and when reaction time is at a premium, the USS Vincennes accidentally shot it down.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: CRPilot
Posted 2004-12-15 03:55:17 and read 7288 times.

"the USS Vincennes accidentally shot it down."

That's a contradiction in terms if I ever heard one! Particularly since the USA has the most advance navy fleet in the whole world. There is nothing accidental about pointing and firing without thought!

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: BENNETT123
Posted 2004-12-15 03:56:04 and read 7284 times.



Try Aviation Disasters ISBN 1 85260 602 9 for starters.

The fact that the Vincennes and A300 were both within air corridor A59 was a big part of the problem.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2004-12-15 03:58:43 and read 7278 times.

whose airspace did this happen in? Im not familiar with laws of launching something from one sea into the airspace of another nation...unless it was no man's....

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N328KF
Posted 2004-12-15 04:08:43 and read 7258 times.

CRPilot:

Want me to define "accident" for you? Since you are probably not a native English speaker, allow me to do so. From Merriam-Webster:

"1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE "

Clearly, USS Vincennes did not intend to shoot down that A300. Therefore it is accidental.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Clickhappy
Posted 2004-12-15 04:29:12 and read 7218 times.

the funny sad thing was the radar oops thought they were looking at an Iranian F-14, not an Airbus

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: KYIPpilot
Posted 2004-12-15 04:35:49 and read 7206 times.

Clearly, USS Vincennes did not intend to shoot down that A300. Therefore it is accidental.

No, they very clearly purposely shot it down, because it was percieved as a threat. They thought it was an Iranian fighter, so they launched a missle at it. Missles just don't launch themselves. Only later did they realize it was an airliner.

Rogers had to make a decision. An F-14 could do little damage to the Vincennes. The version that Washington sold to its ally the Shah of Iran in the early 1970's was purely a fighter plane, not configured to strike surface targets. Still, if Rogers meant to attack it with a missile, he had to fire before the aircraft closed much within 10 miles. At 9:54:05, with the plane 11 miles away, Rogers reached up and switched the firing key to "free" the ship's SM-2 antiaircraft missiles. In Air Alley, Zocher had been given the green light to fire. The young lieutenant was so undone, however, that he pressed the wrong keys on his console 23 times. A veteran petty officer had to lean over and hit the right ones. In the CIC, the lights dimmed momentarily, like a prison's during an electrocution.

Some 10 miles away, Captain Rezaian of Iran Air was calmly reporting to Bander Abbas that he had reached his first check-point crossing the gulf. He heard none of the Vincennes warnings. His four radio bandwidths were taken up with air-control chatter. "Have a nice day," the tower radioed. "Thank you, good day," replied the pilot. Thirty seconds later, the first missile blew the left wing off his aircraft.

On the Vincennes's bridge, cameraman Rudy Pahayo was still filming. His audio captured a babble of voices: "Oh, dead!" "Coming down!" "We had him dead on!" One voice commanded: "Hold the noise down, knock it off!" Another shouted, "Direct hit!" then a lookout came in from the wing of the bridge. The target couldn't have been an F-14, he said. The wreckage falling from the sky, he murmured to the Vincennes's executive officer, Cmdr. Richard Foster, is bigger than that.


from http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/vince.html


[Edited 2004-12-15 04:36:47]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: AirbusDriver
Posted 2004-12-15 04:57:24 and read 7170 times.

this Iran Airbus A300 on a landing run

No It was in cruise...The radar can't tell the altitude???

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2004-12-15 05:00:19 and read 7156 times.

It had just taken off from Iran, from an airport used for both civil and military planes.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Spacecadet
Posted 2004-12-15 05:06:18 and read 7146 times.

Clearly, USS Vincennes did not intend to shoot down that A300. Therefore it is accidental.

No, they very clearly purposely shot it down, because it was percieved as a threat.


I think it's obvious what he meant was that they did not intend to shoot down an A300. They did intend to shoot down a threat. The airplane was not a threat, which they did not know - hence, an unfortunate accident.

It also should be noted that both the Iranians and this A300 specifically were warned several times prior to the shootdown, with no response. The Iranians allowed this airplane to enter a known combat zone and the airplane never identified itself in response to internationally recognized challenges. Funny how the conspiracy theorists never pick up on that.

There are only two possible answers to how this happened: a mistake by the American crew initiated when the Iranians attacked targets in the Persian Gulf, or an intentional scenario created by the Iranians to sway world opinion against the United States. I vote for the former, as I am not a conspiracy theorist, but then I know we've got a lot of conspiracy theorists around here and I never do hear anything about the second theory. Either way, the ultimate blame lies with Iran.

(Can you imagine if the United States launched an attack on a country and then complained when one of our airliners got shot down over the combat zone? Sorry, when you've got a known combat area, you clear the airspace.)

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: CYLW
Posted 2004-12-15 05:07:36 and read 7141 times.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ir655-sasc-19880908.html

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: CYLW
Posted 2004-12-15 05:15:00 and read 7129 times.

(Can you imagine if the United States launched an attack on a country and then complained when one of our airliners got shot down over the combat zone? Sorry, when you've got a known combat area, you clear the airspace.)

That is such a load of crap. This was a SCHEDULED flight which the US knew about. This was on a CIVILIAN airway. Yeah, a climbing A300 looks like an F-14 coming in for an attack.

Either way, the ultimate blame lies with Iran.

No, the ultimate blame lies with the commander of the Vincennes!

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: AirbusDriver
Posted 2004-12-15 06:10:16 and read 7070 times.

So we shoot it down but it's there fault???

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: AirbusCanada
Posted 2004-12-15 06:15:29 and read 7050 times.

n you imagine if the United States launched an attack on a country and then complained when one of our airliners got shot down over the combat zone? Sorry, when you've got a known combat area, you clear the airspace.)

last time i check, us never decleard war on IRAN.
and I am sure those gunboats did not attack any US oil rigs.
how the iranian air contorllers suppose to clear a combat zone, when there is no war?

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Boeing nut
Posted 2004-12-15 07:16:26 and read 6971 times.

I remember the footage from the actual incident on the bridge of the Vincennes. Just by the body language alone, you could tell what the crew had actually done. They were visably shaken when it was confirmed they had shot down an airliner and not a military aircraft.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Skyguy
Posted 2004-12-15 07:18:31 and read 6973 times.

When you are the only superpower in the world with a significant collection of weapons of mass destruction, there is an implicit understanding that you can get away with whatever you wish with impunity, and there is an expectation that what you dictate to other countries is complied with.

With the Iran Air incident, the US could categorize it or mask it however they wish, since whatever the outcome, it would be irrelevant to the US. This seeming lack of accountability to other countries and their citizens in such cases only adds to the perceived instituitional arrogance of US policy and actions (..or lack of). Nevertheless, I do not recall any formal apology being tendered to the Iranian government.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2004-12-15 07:47:31 and read 6940 times.

Uh, If I recall correctly, there were two superpowers when this incident happened. And while there may have been no war declared, the Iranians were certainly acting in a reckless and beligerent manner during that period, attacking the ships and facilities of US allies (including ships that had been reflagged under the US flag) and mining the waters of the Gulf.

The unfortunate reality is whenever there is operational activity whether it is combat or practice or normal manuevers, there is a chance of incidents that effect civilians taking place. Given the operational intensity during that period and given the incident that occurred the previous year with the "accidental" missile attack by an Iraqi jet on the USS Stark that killed 37 sailors, US Naval commanders tended to be a bit more vary of approaching aircraft.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Cragley
Posted 2004-12-15 16:11:44 and read 6779 times.


Didn't the US military award the guy that fired the missle some sort of award?

I heard he was awarded a medal for bravery or something.

Hrm....shooting down a passenger jet, how very brave.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Widebody
Posted 2004-12-15 17:03:27 and read 6719 times.

The ultimate blame lies with Iran SpaceCadet?!!

Whatever the reasons, whatever the mis-understandings on this incident, I can't possibly see how you could draw the conclusion that Iran was to blame. Accident or no accident, the aircraft was shot down when it shouldn't have been.

And it was reported that the warnings were issued on a military channel ONLY, not the civil channel...but again that was Iran's fault? Shared responsibility maybe but ultimately Iran's fault I doubt.



[Edited 2004-12-15 17:04:22]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: ATLhomeCMH
Posted 2004-12-15 17:20:05 and read 6678 times.

I also thought they were high in cruise altitude, but I guess not...this is from the Senate Armed Services Hearing link that CYLW posted...

ENGAGEMENT SEQUENCE (CONT)
0654 Z
• IDS observes Flt 655 at 7,800 ft. at 455 kts descending.
• Spy radar holds Flt 655 at 12,000 ft ascending at 380 kts.
• Firing key turned.
• AAWC recalls altitude of 6,000-7,000 ft.
• 14 secs after firing key is turned, MSS starts launch sequence.
• 3 secs later first missile is launched followed by a second missile.
• Two missiles intercepted Flt 655 BRG 001, RNG 8 nm at 13,500 ft at 383 kts.


Just from reading other parts of the report, it does look like there were procedural errors by the Vincennes bridge officers...(proper warnings/instructions weren't issued at the proper times to IR655, etc).

Then again, I'm no expert...plus, the Vincennes obviously felt some reason to defend itself.




[Edited 2004-12-15 17:32:14]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Russophile
Posted 2004-12-16 01:37:22 and read 6455 times.

And while there may have been no war declared, the Iranians were certainly acting in a reckless and beligerent manner during that period, attacking the ships and facilities of US allies (including ships that had been reflagged under the US flag) and mining the waters of the Gulf.

People need to remember that this was during the time of the Iran-Iraq War. A war which Iraq (a US ally) itself started. It was Iraq who started with blowing up merchant marine (in fact blowing up more than 3 times than Iran did). Iran did attack several tankers -- but these tankers were known to have been supplying the Iraqi war effort. Whether they be sailing under the Kuwaiti or Soviet flag (yes, the USSR had a hand in this also) is irrelevant, they were being used to attack Iran. Much of Kuwait's merchant marine was reflagged with US flags, but they were still supplying the Iraqi war effort. And hence, legitimate targets.

I also thought they were high in cruise altitude, but I guess not...this is from the Senate Armed Services Hearing link that CYLW posted...

IR655 was on a flight from Bandar Abbas to Dubai (the milk run) -- a distance of around 240km -- because of the distance it wouldn't reach normal cruise altitude -- once it takes off, it is almost time to land again  Big grin

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: AirEMS
Posted 2004-12-16 01:43:41 and read 6450 times.

If it was an accident or not I just can't imagine what it was like in that A300 or what it felt like to be that captain that night.

Fly Safe
-Carl

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-12-16 01:51:38 and read 6435 times.

>A300 specifically were warned several times prior to the shootdown<

On military channels that they were not supposed to monitor, addressing an "Iranian F-14"

>with no response.<

They did not know they were being addressed

>The Iranians allowed this airplane to enter a known combat zone <

ATC, following the rules and airways of international ATC put the airplane into a civilian airway

>and the airplane never identified itself in response to internationally recognized challenges.<

They were not addressed on the channels they were expected to monitor

>Funny how the conspiracy theorists never pick up on that.<

This is not about conspiracy theory, as I, a US-Iranian-French triple citizen will acknowledge this was a mistake and not part of some conspiracy. It was however, a breach of protocol, a violation of international law, criminal negligence and a clear mass tort committed by the US and it agents, namely the US Navy.

There should have been a lot more done by the US after the incident (hell, it would not have happened except for the incompetancy and bad action of the crew of the destroyer) but there was an official appology and the token of allowing Iranair to buy a few European airliners. Still, the US should have paid the families of the passengers and crew a lot more than they probably gave the Iranian government instead

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Trex8
Posted 2004-12-16 03:36:25 and read 6363 times.

Read Electronic Greyhounds by Potter, its probably got the best analysis I have seen of the incident. Its a book about the Spruance class destroyers (the Tico cruiser use the same hull).
In a nutshell, Vincennes was disobeying direct orders from US HQ in Bahrain by chasing the Iranians, misreporting the actions of the Iranian boats . They were getting hyped up from their encounters with the Iranian gunboats. The crew did the wrong thing everytime they had a choice (misused an IFF not linked to the AEGIS system, the AEGIS system IFF always showed the A300 as a civilian aircraft), mis read displays so that a climbing aircraft was seen to be diving, they were looking at the wrong target track, officers were refusing to contradict their near hysterical crew and and the rest is history! Even the Sides , a frigate in the area, which while accepting the Vincennes initial assumption the plane was a F14 did not feel it constituted any threat to them at any time and it eventually did accurately identify it as a civilian airliner but the crew in the Vincennes CDS was beyond anyone changing their mind.They had a bogey in their sights and they were going to get it no matter what anyone else said to them.

The US only finally agreed to release the compensation to the Iranian families in the last few years.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: CRPilot
Posted 2004-12-16 04:57:57 and read 6301 times.

N328KF wrote:

"Want me to define "accident" for you? Since you are probably not a native English speaker, allow me to do so."

First of all, I speak three languages perfect, I'm actually an American tax payer with the flag of my country of birth next to my name. English is my first language...How about you?...redneck and drunkaneece? And from your own definition:

"lack of intention or necessity"

"Lack of necessity" means unnecessary...as I said before, if you point and shoot without confirmation you have to assume responsibility for an action which does not qualified as accident in the eyes of the world and your own citizens.

And by the way, that was a nice accident in Iraq too!

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Dc10guy
Posted 2004-12-16 05:06:21 and read 6301 times.

Where not terrorists because we said ... Ops sorry, my bad.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N328KF
Posted 2004-12-16 05:12:35 and read 6284 times.

CRPilot:

Sounds like you're assuming an awful lot from about me, including my race, from what I've said here. Not a wise move, especially since you might be completely wrong.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: CRPilot
Posted 2004-12-16 05:19:37 and read 6278 times.

"Sounds like you're assuming an awful lot from about me, including my race, from what I've said here. Not a wise move, especially since you might be completely wrong."

Again you are the one that assume that I was not a native English speaker...not wise at all as you do not know my background either. My comment was directed to anyone, don't make this about race! Oh, and by the way did I already mentioned that I live in the States and pay taxes like you! That entitles me to question my government particularly on the grounds of stupidity such as shooting down an airliner full of innocent people.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2004-12-16 05:22:56 and read 6272 times.

please dont get personal, i was just asking a question that i was really curious about.

I thank everyone for their replies. I just think it was a horrible circumstance. I must give props to some posters for their sources  Smile thumbs up !

Although it was way back then, if this was an accident, im glad not many more happened.

Were any lawsuits filled or anything like that?

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Trex8
Posted 2004-12-16 19:21:04 and read 6110 times.

The US settled the case with IIRC over 200 million to be paid to the families. However they did not release the money for years till just in the last 2 or so as they wanted a mechanism to distribute the money which the Iranian govt had no part of and there was a lot of negotiation to sort that out.

It was a tragic accident for which no one was held liable even though with hindsight I think there was criminal culpability by some in command. But with US-Iran relations the way it was back then, there was no way the US were going to say they screwed up and punish someone for it. It had its repercussions. The PanAm bombing was felt by many to be a response by anti US entities to get back at the US for the Iran Air incident.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Aa777jr
Posted 2004-12-16 19:30:27 and read 6105 times.

where can I find a video of the missle blowing the plane up? someone said they remember the look on the peoples faces when they realized what had happened.

thanks!
AA777jr

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-12-16 19:39:55 and read 6079 times.

>The PanAm bombing was felt by many to be a response by anti US entities to get back at the US for the Iran Air incident.<

That was actually in the works before the Iranair incident, but it was what got certain elements in Iran behind the previously all Libyan effort. It was probably what made it actually happen that soon, and considering the US and German authorities figured out what was going on just hours too late, it may not have happened without it. Also, if it had happened later, with PA's new screening system in place and proper staff trained (the person who overlooked the unmatched bag was on his first day) the bomb would have likely been found before hitting the airplane.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Alessandro
Posted 2004-12-16 19:46:37 and read 6066 times.

I think it was a mistake, US navy was very nervous after USS Stark where Iraqi Mirage fighter hit and killed +30 US sailors the year before the downing of the Irani A300.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Gearup
Posted 2004-12-16 22:42:45 and read 5975 times.

I do not believe for one moment that they would have shot it down had they known it was a civilian airliner. The crew might have been affected by a combination of adrenaline, inoperative equipment etc. but deliberate malice,,,I don't think so. I would have to question the wisdom of vectoring an aircraft over a combat zone in the first place.
4 Canadians died in Afghanistan because a US pilot dropped a bomb on them while they were training. While I do not know why it happened, I cannot conceive
of deliberate malice as a factor.

GU

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Ltbewr
Posted 2004-12-16 22:54:22 and read 5963 times.

If I am correct, on of the problems here was the lack of a proper identifying transponder on the Iran Air a/c, one that would have ID'd it as a civilian a/c. This was further compounded by the lack of proper equipment on the ship to determine if the Iran Air a/c was friend or foe as well as hyped up and fearful people on that US Navy ship. As a result, without proper info fast enough, a civillian a/c was shot down. It is a great tradegy on the part of the US Navy. There was restitution by the US government, but it was long after the flight due to the political issues as noted above.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: LH600
Posted 2004-12-16 23:07:04 and read 5933 times.

As an Iranian, I can tell you that it was no accident, and I do not need to explain this to a bunch of people who cannot accept that "good ol' red blooded Americans" were capable of intentionally killing these innocent people (As if they don't do it in Iraq everyday).

Even if it were an "accident," NO COMPENSATION WAS GIVEN TO THE IRANIANS. The US government felt it was enough to merely ease sanctions temporarily so that Iran could buy two airbus planes EP-IBA and EP-IBB. That's it!!!!!

May the 290 people on board R.I.P.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2004-12-16 23:09:21 and read 5924 times.

all in all...after attaing more view points from the posters above....i just feel like it's one of those situations where the coincidence factor happens to come in...and as someone said adrenalin and all the other factors....

it's just amazing the same species that put much effort into designing a plane and making life more convenient, can design weapons to bring that same plane down....

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N328KF
Posted 2004-12-16 23:10:38 and read 5920 times.

LH600:

Were you on the Vincennes? The Senatoral investigating committee? No? Well, then.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Bullpitt
Posted 2004-12-16 23:36:58 and read 5886 times.

All I can say is, If you go to war with the Americans, as an ally or a foe. The best place to be is behind them. Big grin

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2004-12-16 23:43:25 and read 5875 times.

N328KF:

You can't win with these people. If you mention KAL007, they will say that the airplane was masking a USAF ELINT platform. Nothing but conspiracy theories.

BTW: What compensation was given to the hostages of the US Embassy in Tehran that were kept against their will for 444 days???

It's hard to soar like an eagle when the pattern is clogged with turkey vultures.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: LH600
Posted 2004-12-17 00:10:36 and read 5850 times.

N328KF:

I'd bet you weren't on the Vincennes or the senatoral investigating committee either. What makes you an expert?? By listening to what is fed to you by your one-sided media?? Or just your belief that the US military has the right to police the world and kill innocent people??

For me this attack hit home, my aunt was an Iran Air flight attendant. Luckily she wasn't on that plane. But you don't care that 290 innocent people lost their lives. You don't care because they weren't American.

Lets not forget this is NOT the US military's first 'accident'. Just imagine what would happen if the Iranian military 'accidentally' shot down an American civilian aircraft. Iran would be bombed off the face of the earth!!!

IT'S A SAD WORLD WE LIVE IN.

[Edited 2004-12-17 00:34:41]

[Edited 2004-12-17 00:40:58]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Russophile
Posted 2004-12-17 00:29:25 and read 5830 times.

Were you on the Vincennes? The Senatoral investigating committee? No? Well, then.

He wasn't. I wasn't. And you weren't? And why not mention any Iranian investigation which was done? We don't just need the 'word' of Washington to ascertain what is the truth and what isn't.

In regards to IR655, I don't believe it was a deliberate act on the part of the US government. I do believe however it was a deliberate act on the part of Rogers, largely because he refused to follow orders and had the trigger finger.

As far as the US government is concerned this was an accident. OK, let's grant that. But, the first thing you do when you cause an accident is say SORRY and you make things right. Reagan, of course, didn't say sorry. He say "We deeply regret any loss of life." Nowhere near saying sorry. No formal apology has ever been made.

You don't lie, you don't hide the truth, and you sure as hell don't protect and decorate those responsible.

Although it might have been an accident, or a mistake, people still need to be held accountable for their mistakes.

The US government's offer of US$61.8 million compensation in 1996 was a complete joke. Particularly after you consider that the US demanded US$2.7 billion from Libya for those killed on PA103.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Trex8
Posted 2004-12-17 00:41:27 and read 5806 times.

An American is worth far more than any other nationality. That's obvious isn't it??
I'm being facetious, but that is unfortunately the mentality we have to deal with in situations like this.

There wa snothing wrong with the transponder on the Iran Air plane or even the AEGIS IFF system, which always showed it to be a commercial plane. The problem was human error in misusing the non AEGIS IFF interrogator and not adjusting it for the appropriate range so that as a result of surface duct transmission, a military plane on the ground at Bandar Abbas was interrogated and not the A300! Even the Vincennes ECM system never showed a hostile threat.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: LH600
Posted 2004-12-17 00:49:30 and read 5797 times.

Trex8:

"An American is worth far more than any other nationality. That's obvious isn't it??
I'm being facetious, but that is unfortunately the mentality we have to deal with in situations like this."



Why is it that we have to deal with this mentality??? Shouldn't we try to end it?? After all, many politicians believe this and it can lead to dangerous situations.

[Edited 2004-12-17 00:56:19]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Trex8
Posted 2004-12-17 01:52:47 and read 5738 times.

I'm not saying its acceptable, but its the mentality that determines the outcome of such unfortunate incidents and you are 100% correct that it should end. But human nature being what it is and this not being an ideal world, there will always be someone somewhere who thinks they are better/more important etc than someone else.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamix707
Posted 2004-12-17 07:39:20 and read 5676 times.

"As an Iranian, I can tell you that it was no accident, and I do not need to explain this to a bunch of people who cannot accept that "good ol' red blooded Americans" were capable of intentionally killing these innocent people (As if they don't do it in Iraq everyday)"


..And I've spoken to Iranians who don't feel the way you do, some even told me they wished the U.S. had gone in and done the regime change in your country instead of Iraq. However, and even with the Iranian rulers being who they are, the U.S. should've given an apology, and a good one.

I was really young back then but I can remember the images on TV of bodies floating in the water, very sad  Crying as if that wasn't enough, a few months later, PanAm 103  Crying


I realize you are bit on the young side and have your strong, biased views, but why does Iraq have to come up? In Iraq, the only ones sabotaging the reconstruction and doing the suicide bombings are the insurgents with the help of foreign fighters (some coming from Iran) as you probably know.


Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamix707
Posted 2004-12-17 07:44:10 and read 5674 times.

BTW, I think that the Iran Air planes in that older livery looked beautiful.

Any pics of that A300 in the database?

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: LH600
Posted 2004-12-17 09:27:30 and read 5638 times.

Miamix707:

I've spoken to Iranians who don't feel the way you do, some even told me they wished the U.S. had gone in and done the regime change in your country instead of Iraq.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and they can believe what they want. I believe that the attack on the Iran Air A300 was not an accident.

If those Iranians who you've claim you to talked to really exist, I'd bet you that they had worked in or were loyal to the previous oppressive regime and/or are willing to have a foreign power bomb their homeland, kill civilians, and install US puppets to run the country. Therefore these people do not have the interest of the Iranian people at heart.



I realize you are bit on the young side and have your strong, biased views, but why does Iraq have to come up?

I do not have biased views. I am half Iranian half American and love both of my countries equally. I would go as far as to say I HATE the tyrannical Iranian government, but that does not mean the US government is perfect either. I brought up the US occupation of Iraq because it is another example of the atrocities the US military commits overseas. As I think you know, many other FELLOW AMERICANS feel the same way I do. I frequently travel back and forth between the US and Iran therefore I feel that I know what is going on in Iran much better than you do. And finally, my age has nothing to do with this, I am 19 years old and you just brought that up to shatter my credibility. After this post I think you know that you have failed to do so.


[Edited 2004-12-17 09:47:13]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamiair
Posted 2004-12-17 13:14:39 and read 5560 times.

LH600:
Not your credibility, but your ass is showing. There is a noticeable amount of venom in your post. Join the mortals trodding on the earth as you were not in the CIC of the Vincennes, and don't know what actually happened. Those that were there do, so lighten up. It was an unfortunate ACCIDENT, and leave it at that. Stirring the sh*t only makes it more odorous.

And please don't generalize about atrocities committed by the US military. You are judging the entire military for a few isolated incidents. Using your logic, I can say that all muslims are responsible for 9/11; totally absurd.

[Edited 2004-12-17 13:18:53]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-12-17 13:25:23 and read 5540 times.

>The Senatoral investigating committee?<

That had it in their best interests to side with the US Navy.

>What compensation was given to the hostages of the US Embassy in Tehran that were kept against their will for 444 days???<

So, what has the US been doing with the Iranian assets still in US banks making the government money?

On an aviation note, I think it is amazing that the government of Iran and Iran Air have both stated that if given a choice of new aircraft, they would by Boeing in an instant because of their experience with the longevity and durability of their product and the strong links that the people of Iran have with the US. In fact, the only links between the countries that are not strong are diplomatic and economic

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Solnabo
Posted 2004-12-17 14:22:07 and read 5499 times.

A blind mice who couldn´t see the diffrence between a jetliner and a fighter.

"Oooppss.....friendly(?)fire"!! Yeah right  Insane

Micke/SE

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2004-12-17 22:51:54 and read 5399 times.

oh man, do i feel bad for starting this thread...i think after the first few posts.....the typical A.net political and social bashing committee came crashing through...lol

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamix707
Posted 2004-12-18 03:53:49 and read 5282 times.

oh man, do i feel bad for starting this thread...i think after the first few posts.....the typical A.net political and social bashing committee came crashing through...lol

oh man ..like you knew it wasn't gonna happen  Insane

LH600, you might think at 19 you are really mature and all, but your age still shows. So I won't even waste my time replying to any negative, hateful, and inmature opinions. Wanna do something positive? Go find a picture of the A300 and post it in the forum.

regards,

-Miami

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-12-18 04:03:52 and read 5275 times.

>negative, hateful, and inmature opinions.<

You mean the ones that caused the plane to go down anyway?

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Dc10guy
Posted 2004-12-18 04:20:01 and read 5259 times.

OK OK guys. Let me end this once and for all ... So bout the Airbus Iranian dudes. Our bad. opps.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2004-12-18 04:38:05 and read 5242 times.

"oh man ..like you knew it wasn't gonna happen "


ill be the judge of that, you the know the rest of the Assume quote im sure.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2004-12-18 04:38:05 and read 5244 times.

Ok, blatant stupidity needs to be cleared up. First, a synopsis:

The USS Vincennes, after the Stark incident would tend to be a bit more trigger happy when it comes to approaching aircraft. Fact.

Also a fact, the Vincennes did not go through proper threat assessment protocol.

It all boils down to that...a horrible accident. And my thoughts are with the those that were killed. However, you can't just look at the condensed version, and the events surrounding this incident are FAR from simple and straightforward! Now, for the "special people" who need to be schooled...

Airbuslover:

Thanks the Furher G.W.II.

Ummmmmmmmmm, yeah! Pop quiz hot shot, who was President at the time!? It wasn't the Shrub! Second question, who gave authorization to shoot down the perceived threat? Well, again, it wasn't the President. You fell on your face twice with one trip...impressive. Listen up and listen good, this is Civ. Av., if you want to vent about Dubya, take it to Non-Av.

LH600:

Lets not forget this is NOT the US military's first 'accident'. Just imagine what would happen if the Iranian military 'accidentally' shot down an American civilian aircraft. Iran would be bombed off the face of the earth!!!

Accidents happen...and the US isn't the only one. Does anyone recall the Aeroflot plane that the USAF downed during the Korean War? However, stupidity comes in blaming one side and demonizing a whole country, religion, ideology, etc. Should I bring up radical Islam's "accident" on a warm September Tuesday some three year ago?????????

As an Iranian, I can tell you that it was no accident, and I do not need to explain this to a bunch of people who cannot accept that "good ol' red blooded Americans" were capable of intentionally killing these innocent people (As if they don't do it in Iraq everyday).

1. Being Iranian doesn't mean you know what an accident is or isn't...it's a nationality, NOT a credential.

2. You weren't on the deck of the Vincennes, have little idea of the situation on board, nor were you on the Iranian A300. I am saddened by the tragedy, and compensation should have been given...but intentionally shooting down the airliner?...the evidence that any objective person would view proves this was a horrible accident.

3. If you are so certain in your assertion that the US intentionally did this, perhaps you would relish the chance to furnish hard evidence...a confession by the commanding officer, documents that stated "Shoot down anything that flies, including airliners!", or a tape of what went on aboard the Vincennes. Otherwise, this is hearsay.

Solnabo:

A blind mice who couldn´t see the diffrence between a jetliner and a fighter.


"Oooppss.....friendly(?)fire"!! Yeah right


Once again, you weren't there...otherwise you'd back it up with some proof. Why A.net keeps a pod like you on is beyond me. But you contribute ZERO to these forums. Go back to being a cheerleader for Airbus...that's all you're good at.

dc10guy:

Where not terrorists because we said ... Ops sorry, my bad.

Again, bring some constructive arguments. I bet this is the first time you've ever heard of this incident.  Insane Do you ever contribute, or do you just stalk the forums furthering the agenda of your political party handlers...again, take that BS to Non. Av.

N328KF:

Want me to define "accident" for you? Since you are probably not a native English speaker, allow me to do so.

Native English speaker or not has nothing to do with it. Thank you for helping to start the fire though.  Insane

CRPilot:

First of all, I speak three languages perfect, I'm actually an American tax payer with the flag of my country of birth next to my name. English is my first language...How about you?...redneck and drunkaneece? And from your own definition:

Immature, and hypocritical. You're no better than N328KF. Try legit arguments next time.

I'm in no way trying to belittle what happened. This was a tragic event, but what people need to realize is that there is no one single factor, rather many smaller factors that came together with deadly timing. Kinda like a regular air crash...wow, engineers instilling common sense into the world...who 'da thunk it?

Once again, my thoughts are with the victims, may they RIP. You can all bitch as much as you want...it doesn't change what happened to those aboard that A300.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers





Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2004-12-18 04:41:50 and read 5237 times.

Jeez, it never ends...

N1120a

You mean the ones that caused the plane to go down anyway?

Implying that the crew of the Vincennes knew this was an Iranian Airliner and somehow through bigotry decided to shoot it down...well, that's a sweeping and serious charge...

Question: Do you have the balls to back it up with some actual evidence? Or are you going by this stereotypical perception of the "Ugly American"?

dc10guy

OK OK guys. Let me end this once and for all ... So bout the Airbus Iranian dudes. Our bad. opps.

Only a clueless pod like you could make light of such a tragedy. Get some facts straight first before you shoot your mouth off.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: CRPilot
Posted 2004-12-18 04:55:38 and read 5222 times.

Boeing4ever

Perhaps you'd consider a post on the current administration, as is going to take a lot bullsh*t to explain the events of the past 3 years in Iraq with smoke screens in the same fashion that you just try to cover this.

You don't have any evidence that it was not an accident either (one-sided military reports and investigations do not count)...the argument could continue for decades... so, please do us all a favor and go back to watching CNN, or perhaps Fox News.

Good day to you.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2004-12-18 05:00:11 and read 5219 times.

Perhaps you'd consider a post on the current administration, as is going to take a lot bullsh*t to explain the events of the past 3 years in Iraq with smoke screens in the same fashion that you just try to cover this.

1. This topic is NOT about the current administration, so don't dare try to dodge the subject

2. Where have I used "smoke screens" to "cover this". This US made a mistake and is responsible...but was it intentional...highly doubtful.

You don't have any evidence that it was not an accident either (one-sided military reports and investigations do not count)...the argument could continue for decades... so, please do us all a favor and go back to watching CNN, or perhaps Fox News.

3. My point wasn't that I knew the answers, but that noone on A.net was there.

4. You have lost the right to complain about others making assumptions about you...period. How you manage to try to turn this into Rep vs. Dem is beyond me. Worse, I'm neither a Rep or Dem. I'm a proud Centrist...putting the stupidity of both sides of the spectrum in their respective places. I watch a healthy mix of MSNBC, CNN, FOX, and anything that gives me facts. I'm intelligent enough to weed through the spin folks like you work so hard to create.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: CRPilot
Posted 2004-12-18 05:32:11 and read 5202 times.

"My point wasn't that I knew the answers, but that noone on A.net was there."

Good! Stick with it then, and stop proclaiming that it was an accident.

"You have lost the right to complain about others making assumptions about you...period."

I hardly think you speak for A.net, if you did, I'd want my money back as this is a multicultural website. Welcome to the World beyond the USA, where not every one agrees with you!

Given your demeanor towards everyone on posts 60 and 61 you seem to think you're above all, and can speak to us as lost children. May I suggest a dose of "humble pie" which you can get at your local support group for anger management.

We do agree on something though:

"You can all bitch as much as you want...it doesn't change what happened to those aboard that A300."

Let's leave it at that. Have a good one.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Atcrick
Posted 2004-12-18 05:36:29 and read 5200 times.

Wow,

These things get ugly.

LH600,

I would really think that you should let go of this anger that you hold against the US for every atrocity that has ever happened in the world. It was a horrible occurrence, I think it was an accident, you don't. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion (in this country anyway).

If everybody held a grudge the way you seem to, it could have been intentional. Somebody with their finger on the trigger still upset about the 444 days Iran kept our hostages.


Boeing4ever,

Bravo!


Atc Rick





Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2004-12-18 05:41:11 and read 5195 times.

Good! Stick with it then, and stop proclaiming that it was an accident.

Prove it wasn't.

I hardly think you speak for A.net, if you did, I'd want my money back as this is a multicultural website. Welcome to the World beyond the USA, where not every one agrees with you!

Where does this come from? You whined in posts above about others making assumptions about you...then you make the blatant assumption that I'm some right-wing "ugly American" with that CNN/FOX comment. And NOW, you are using "Welcome to the World beyond the USA" which has nothing to do with this specific argument (the argument I'm referring to is the one about you complaining about assumptions made about you, so don't try to spin that.). Not everyone agrees with me, fine, I don't care, but I do expect those who oppose my view points to do so with logic and fact, not hearsay and political BS like you've tried to start.

Given your demeanor towards everyone on posts 60 and 61 you seem to think you're above all, and can speak to us as lost children. May I suggest a dose of "humble pie" which you can get at your local support group for anger management.

When certain members on these boards stop acting like children, I'll stop talking with them as if they were children. Plain and simple. Given your quick willingness to label other users as "redneck" and try to pin the whole FOX/CNN BS on me, I'd suggest anger management for you as well.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2004-12-18 05:57:25 and read 5182 times.

Boy this thread sure went south in a hurry . . . as if Pilotaydin planned it that way with the original post!

Cover up? Nope.

Lousy Command operation by the Navy aboard USS Vincennes? Yes, definitely. Someone, many someones, should have lost their jobs over that one. Period. There's an old saying in the US military, "The Commander is responsible for everything his/her personnel do, or fail to do".

Compensation to the Iranian families? Probably would have been the right thing to do. But given the diplomatic situation between the US and Iran at that time, I can see why it wasn't done. Oh, yeah, ummmm, that little thing about holding American's hostage for 444 days didn't help matters either for the Iranians either.

Media Sensationalism? Absolutely, period. And not just by CNN and the ever present "Fair and Balanced (BS)" Fox folks. You can bet your a$$ BBC had their swing, Al-Jazeera had theirs, etc. And none were the same. Welcome to the news media.

By the by, anyone want to talk about the Russians popping that KE 747 ANC-SEL several years back? Bet we'd hear much of the same old rhetoric.

[Edited 2004-12-18 06:08:29]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: LH600
Posted 2004-12-18 06:58:36 and read 5157 times.

Boeing4ever,

"Being Iranian doesn't mean you know what an accident is or isn't...it's a nationality, NOT a credential....You weren't on the deck of the Vincennes, have little idea of the situation on board, nor were you on the Iranian A300.

I know I wasn't on the deck of the Vincennes or the onboard the Airbus, neither were you.
I know that being Iranian isn't a credential. I am merely saying that as an open-minded liberal Iranian-American, I have had the privilege of hearing both sides of the story and forming my own unbiased conjecture (again I am 1/2 Iranian, 1/2 American). You on the other hand have based you opinion solely on the word of one-sided biased American cable ''news" networks. You said it yourself....

"I watch a healthy mix of MSNBC, CNN, FOX, and anything that gives me facts.I'm intelligent enough to weed through the spin folks like you work so hard to create. "

Are you intelligent enough to weed through the spin created by Mr. Scarborough? Or how about Mr. O'Reilly in his "NO SPIN ZONE?"

"If you are so certain in your assertion that the US intentionally did this, perhaps you would relish the chance to furnish hard evidence...a Confession by the commanding Officer, documents that stated "Shoot down anything that flies, including airliners!", or a tape of what went on aboard the Vincennes. Otherwise, this is hearsay."

Do you have any hard evidence?? Couldn't the all mighty US government or military have covered up or manipulated this evidence?? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to do so??

Boeing4ever,Miamix707 and Miamiair:

I think RUSSOPHILE said it best, "We don't just need the 'word' of Washington to ascertain what is the truth and what isn't."

Miamix707:

"You might think at 19 you are really mature and all, but your age still shows. So I won't even waste my time replying to any negative, hateful, and inmature opinions. Wanna do something positive? Go find a picture of the A300 and post it in the forum."

Again my age has nothing to do with this!!! Even though I am younger than you are, I am entitled to my opinion and I am in a much better position to have my belief in this case due to the fact that I have heard both sides of the story. The fact is YOU HAVE NOT!!!

Are my opinions "negative, hateful, and immature (learn how to spell it)" because they go against your beliefs??? Or should I say, what was fed to you by the 'news'!!!



[Edited 2004-12-18 07:02:03]

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2004-12-18 07:08:50 and read 5143 times.

I know I wasn't on the deck of the Vincennes or the onboard the Airbus, neither were you.
I know that being Iranian isn't a credential. I am merely saying that as an open-minded liberal Iranian-American, I have had the privilege of hearing both sides of the story and forming my own unbiased conjecture (again I am 1/2 Iranian, 1/2 American). You on the other hand have based you opinion solely on the word of one-sided biased American cable ''news" networks. You said it yourself....

"I watch a healthy mix of MSNBC, CNN, FOX, and anything that gives me facts.I'm intelligent enough to weed through the spin folks like you work so hard to create. "

Are you intelligent enough to weed through the spin created by Mr. Scarborough? Or how about Mr. O'Reilly in his "NO SPIN ZONE?"


Are you that dense? I don't listen at all to Scarborough or O'Reilly, I just listen to the "boring" old straight news...like CNN Headline News. Commentary is BS...more something you're good at. Now, do explain, where have I taken one side? I have stated that the US is responsible, but YOU are the one who has asserted that the US did it intentionally.

Do you have any hard evidence?? Couldn't the all mighty US government or military have covered up or manipulated this evidence?? Wouldn't it be in their best interest to do so??

No, it wouldn't be in their best interest...no way would the US be able to silence the whole Vincennes crew for very long, even with far flung conspiracies such as threatening their families, etc, etc. It is in their best interest to try to explain, deflect blame, and try to minimize the PR damage, so of course the Navy and Senate hearings will be slanted. Of course those should be taken with grains of salt...but the Navy and the Senate have provided some hard evidence in that final report, and anyone smart enough to pick through the spin would know that it basically says "We fucked up, but don't want to admit it".

But to say the crew did it intentionally? You'll need something much stronger than "I'm Iranian". I can tell you right now that that is a serious charge. You brought it up first, so prove that Americans are out to "Kill you all".

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: ANCFlyer
Posted 2004-12-18 07:16:26 and read 5133 times.

Or how about Mr. O'Reilly in his "NO SPIN ZONE?"

Great show!  Big thumbs up

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-12-18 07:35:17 and read 5123 times.

>Implying that the crew of the Vincennes knew this was an Iranian Airliner and somehow through bigotry decided to shoot it down...well, that's a sweeping and serious charge...<

And it was a sweeping and very serious missile. Like has been shown through independent investigation, not that of a biased Senate Sub-Committee, this crew had shown a penchant toward having an itchy trigger finger and they completely ignored procedure and their own equipment is firing at the plane.

>Question: Do you have the balls to back it up with some actual evidence? Or are you going by this stereotypical perception of the "Ugly American"?<

You really don't read many of my posts, do you?

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: LH600
Posted 2004-12-18 07:37:13 and read 5126 times.

Boeing4ever:

The bottom line is that you and many other people refuse to even consider the attack was intentional. I DON'T BLAME YOU. You have been brainwashed into believing that our government and military is perfectly fair and humane towards the rest of the world. You weren't as fortunate as I was to hear both sides of the story. Because you are obviously biased and refuse to believe that Americans are capable of doing this, I WILL NOT WASTE MY TIME WITH YOU ANYMORE!!!

I believe that the crew attacked the aircraft intentionally, you believe that this was an accident. OK!!!!

Can we agree to disagree????

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamix707
Posted 2004-12-18 07:58:31 and read 5111 times.

">negative, hateful, and inmature opinions.<

You mean the ones that caused the plane to go down anyway?"


Were you there? Anyways read my earlier reply where I said the US should've given Iran an apology. About them wanting to buy Boeing, and as a Boeing fannatic yourself, you are talking like it's 100% certain that if that "arrogant US overnment allowed it" for sure the "extremely trustworthy Iranian regime" would get some Boeings  Nuts


ill be the judge of that, you the know the rest of the Assume quote im sure

huh? not sure what you are saying but, I'm sure you know better. It should've been obvious negative individuals would start a fight sooner or later. Just Google it, or read a book on the subject, for sure you'll find less biased and inmature comments than on a.net.

 Big grin

Boeing4Ever, well said, don't waste your time with individuals who spit out their resentful, hateful, biased opinions as if they were facts. They have too big of an ego to admit they're wrong and to just shut up.

This happened 16 years ago, and is not like arguing is going to change anything guys.


have a nice day

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-12-18 08:08:51 and read 5099 times.

>"extremely trustworthy Iranian regime"<

I trust Mohammad Khatami more than GWB, and they both have other people who are actually in power. And guess what, they are all clerics

>you are talking like it's 100% certain that if that<

If they opened up relations, it would likely be part of a trade deal anyway

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamix707
Posted 2004-12-18 09:15:13 and read 5082 times.

Again my age has nothing to do with this!!! Even though I am younger than you are, I am entitled to my opinion and I am in a much better position to have my belief in this case due to the fact that I have heard both sides of the story. The fact is YOU HAVE NOT!!!

Kiddo, you have some major trauma. I'll be honest, the fact you go to Iran so much as you say; if anything, only discredits your OPINIONS. Actually you sound like you're the one who was brainwashed in one of those trips.

Anyways just tell us your side of the story then! How old were you when you heard the news 3? I was old enough to remember the news. Here is the shocker for you: I didn't hear it from the US side since I lived in a country with a non-democratic, repressive regime (much like Iran's). Do you know what they automatically said in the Pan Am 103 incident as a probable cause? "American planes, especially Pan American's are poorly maintained" And actually I've seen not just this one, but many more stories from both pro and anti-American news So don't be so quick to assume things about others and no I'm not defending the US government's actions. However, this incident aside, if I was "forced" to believe one side, I'd take the US over the Iranian any day.

Are my opinions "negative, hateful, and immature (learn how to spell it)" because they go against your beliefs??? Or should I say, what was fed to you by the 'news'!!!

sorry! I like to spell it, iMMature  Laugh out loud

Seriously now, grow up

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Miamix707
Posted 2004-12-18 09:27:32 and read 5077 times.

I trust Mohammad Khatami more than GWB, and they both have other people who are actually in power. And guess what, they are all clerics


Alright! Good for you.

Also, any remotely logical arguments and consequent point you tried to make earlier went down the toilet with that one.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N1120a
Posted 2004-12-18 09:52:08 and read 5060 times.

>remotely logical arguments<

I would think my arguments would be more than remotely logical, considering I am getting a doctorate in the subject and I know more about Iranian history and politics than most people you will ever meet

>consequent point you tried to make earlier went down the toilet<

I did not try to make any point, I made them and you cannot even flush them down the toilet that is political bureaucracy. If you don't think the church runs things when it comes to many of GWB's policies, you really need to look at his record again.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: Boeing4ever
Posted 2004-12-18 13:00:32 and read 5029 times.

The bottom line is that you and many other people refuse to even consider the attack was intentional. I DON'T BLAME YOU. You have been brainwashed into believing that our government and military is perfectly fair and humane towards the rest of the world. You weren't as fortunate as I was to hear both sides of the story. Because you are obviously biased and refuse to believe that Americans are capable of doing this, I WILL NOT WASTE MY TIME WITH YOU ANYMORE!!!

I did consider that the attack could have been intentional, but when you look at it fully, all we have is a trigger-happy crew who though they had an Iranian F-14, only to go dead silent when they saw the size of the debris falling from the sky.

And if you think I've been brainwashed into believing that Uncle Sam is all awsome and humane, then you completely missed what I was saying. Abu Ghraib proves Uncle Sam could use serious sensitivity training.

And it was a sweeping and very serious missile. Like has been shown through independent investigation, not that of a biased Senate Sub-Committee, this crew had shown a penchant toward having an itchy trigger finger and they completely ignored procedure and their own equipment is firing at the plane.

There's a difference between the itchy trigger finger and some badly followed procedures and the claim you made (as implied from your post) that the Vincennes crew had positively ID'ed the aircraft as an Iranian Airliner and decided to shoot it down, as opposed to their believe that it was an F-14.

You really don't read many of my posts, do you?

I've definately read more than you, for clearly I'm not the one with his/her head up his/her ass. There are "ugly Americans" who have a biased and stereotyped view of the world, and then we have you..."Ugly European" who is the "ugly American's" polar opposite.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: KBGRbillT
Posted 2004-12-18 16:23:12 and read 4965 times.

LH600

Tell us about the other side of the so-called 'story' that you've heard and maybe that will bring some credibility to your claims!! If you were only 4 or 5 years old when this happened, where did you get your info about this incident from? If it wasn't first hand, then whether it came from Iran, the U.S. or any other source how can you assume that it is correct and hasn't been 'spun' as you claim the U.S. version is? You can't! Also, don't you think that if the U.S. were to intentionally commit an act of aggression towards Iran at the time that they would have chose something different than the intentional killing of 290 innocent people in plain daylight? Not the U.S.'s method of operation. (See the retaliation that took place after the bombing of PanAm103) No, Libyan airliners shot down nor 290 innocent Libyan's killed inexplicably. However, I refuse to age bash you or be involved in any other type of childish bashing that has taken place after your previous posts. Let's all try and stick to the original question without the political BS and personal banter!

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: VC-10
Posted 2004-12-18 17:34:22 and read 4922 times.

There was a program on this incident on UK TV a couple of years back. They said there were two other US warships in the area tracking the flight and had correctly identified the type of flight it was and the fact it was climbing. The captains of these two ships couldn't belive it when the Vincennes launched a missile.

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: N757KW
Posted 2004-12-18 18:43:31 and read 4891 times.

If I remember correctly, Frontline (program aired on Public Broadcasting stations in the U.S.) did a program on the destruction of the Iranian Airliner. It did not paint a particular good view of the crew of the Vincennes.

I would recommend the program, and let y'all decide if it is fair.

N757KW

Topic: RE:? About Iran Air A300 That Was Shot Down....
Username: ACAfan
Posted 2004-12-18 19:51:18 and read 4856 times.

It was a Nightline piece on ABC with Ted Koppel, and here is the transcript.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ir655-nightline-19920701.html


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