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Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Dayflyer
Posted 2004-12-21 16:32:27 and read 14381 times.

Airbus is killing Boeing in sales this year. When is Boeing going to wake up and do something about it?

http://money.iwon.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt.jsp?section=news&news_id=dji-00044020041221&feed=dji&date=20041221&cat=INDUSTRY

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Cedarjet
Posted 2004-12-21 16:44:42 and read 14203 times.

Here we go!

I must say that India is going to be a lucrative market, Air-India are a good airline but talk about UNDER-ACHIVERS! There are Indian communities everywhere, and most of them fly Emirates to visit the mother country. Those 43 A380s should be in Air-India livery. As an Airbus supporter, I hope they sweep the board. What remains is the perennial question, where the hell are Boeing? The more I think about it, the harder it is to see them dig their way out of the hole they've created for themselves.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: D950
Posted 2004-12-21 16:59:53 and read 14143 times.

I have it, we all take up a collection and buy MDD back from Boeing and sell some real planes!!

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Cha747
Posted 2004-12-21 17:10:18 and read 14102 times.

There are Indian communities everywhere, and most of them fly Emirates to visit the mother country.

What is your source on this? Just curious...I rarely hear about anybody from the US using EK to get to India.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2004-12-21 18:23:04 and read 13975 times.

I rarely hear about anybody from the US using EK to get to India

Prolly' because EK only flies to a single gateway here.... and many pax would soon as rather stick with whatever carrier got them over the ocean.

Give it time, ask EK expands in the N.America, you'll probably see more Indian VFR traffic migrating toward them.


On the other hand, look at the Gulf and UK regions...

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Dayflyer
Posted 2004-12-21 18:25:58 and read 13955 times.

Ok back to the original question then: What are they going to do about it?

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Angelairways
Posted 2004-12-21 18:31:07 and read 13917 times.

well if they were listening to what their lost customers are saying, they should beef up their after-sales support!!!

see parallel thread http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1872398/

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Qwerty
Posted 2004-12-21 18:38:00 and read 13878 times.

Ok back to the original question then: What are they going to do about it?

Relocate from Chicago to Dayton. Would that make you happy -- they would then really be in the middle of the nowhere.

I personally will not fly a domestic U.S. carrier using Airbus equipment if I can find a comparable flight on Boeing equipment. What are you doing about it? I fly Song and even Ted over jetBlue all the time for this reason. I also will not step foot on Frontier if I don't have to.

[Edited 2004-12-21 19:02:48]

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Airbazar
Posted 2004-12-21 18:45:46 and read 13805 times.

Qwerty, if charity is the only way to bring Boeing back to the top, then they're in much bigger trouble than predicted.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Col
Posted 2004-12-21 18:46:54 and read 13799 times.

Wow, Querty you show them, your stance is obviously teaching Airbus and our European members a lesson. Good on you, it is obviously helping Boeing also, all that guaranteed revenue to Boeing customers. I just wish we all did as you, then Boeing could continue on its same poor course and could keep market share.

Its Christmas, so I am not going to tell you what I really think about your post, but it makes us State siders seem a little immature.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Manni
Posted 2004-12-21 18:53:02 and read 13758 times.

querty,

If the trend continues, you might need to take a bicycle next time you travel in your country and a boat next time you'd like to go overseas.  Laugh out loud

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Scorpio
Posted 2004-12-21 18:53:29 and read 13753 times.

I personally will not fly a domestic U.S. carrier using Airbus equipment if I can find a comparable flight on Boeing equipment. What are you doing about it? I fly Song and Ted over jetBlue all the time for this reason.

Tell me, Qwerty, what planes does Ted fly?

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Macc
Posted 2004-12-21 19:05:01 and read 13695 times.

i have seen a movie where someone was running coast to coast...

 Smile

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Qwerty
Posted 2004-12-21 19:14:32 and read 13649 times.

Tell me, Qwerty, what planes does Ted fly?

Very true. I may have posted myself in to a corner here.

jetBlue has never bought anything else so it's like I said, I avoid them whenever possible. Often a Ted flight is most affordable. Usually I can get on a U.S. mainline for the same $$$. My post does hint that I don't fly on Airbus - this just isn't true. I DO, however, try not to. I'm not going to sacrifice money for a more expensive Beoing-equipped flight. But all other things equal, I will take a MD, Boeing, or Canadair equipment over Eurobus.

if charity is the only way to bring Boeing back to the top, then they're in much bigger trouble than predicted.

Read above, it's by no means charity. I just try to put myself on U.S.-made, planes. And I bet you care less whether a 12-year old or an adult sewed your jeans. It's the same point.

And, by the way, who's predicting Boeing's death. Harry Stone-however-you-spell-his-last-name is cleaning house.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2004-12-21 19:16:28 and read 13638 times.

i have seen a movie where someone was running coast to coast...

I take the Forest Gump approach to flying - it's like a box of chocolates. On my last trip I flew on a CO ERJ (first trip on CO, first ERJ flight). It just makes things more interesting.

Meanwhile, back on topic.

Even with 52 firm 7E7 orders this year, it looks like Boeing will be some way behind Airbus in booked and announced orders as well as deliveries. We will have to wait some time to see if some of the measures that Boeing is taking will have the desired results - reduced 777 manufacturing costs, revamping the sales team, increasing 737 production rates.

Adding to their other woes, the mainstay of their order books for so long (the US majors) are in pretty bad shape and may not recover sufficiently to be able to help Boeing for some time.

I fear a few lean years ahead for Boeing.  Sad

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Neverest
Posted 2004-12-21 19:41:46 and read 13542 times.

Querty

This sort of nationalism has long past. I was very happy that Air France bought 777s instead of Airbus, to affirm that the best equipment for the price should win rather than quaint nationalistic preferences. We should encourage competition and development of better products and consider the entire world as one country.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Picarus
Posted 2004-12-21 20:00:54 and read 13474 times.

Personally, I believe if Stonecipher is serious about " cleaning house," he'd tender his own resignation. He MO is well known from his days at MDD. He nixed MDD's commercial operation by refusing to invest in new technologies and airframe development, and now, some speculate, me included, that he's taken the same mental approach to Boeing's commercial operations--the 7E7 notwithstanding. I'm not convinced that his hand wasn't forced by the board or outside influences in that decision.

Regardless, the "bet the company" spirit is long gone. I have a hunch that Boeing "old-timers" miss the good ole' days.


Picarus

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: 777ER
Posted 2004-12-22 00:50:53 and read 12728 times.

I started a thread a few days ago, saying that Boeing is going to sell B737s cheaper now, after all the B737 orders that they lost to the A320.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2004-12-22 01:29:52 and read 12486 times.

Airbus is killing Boeing in sales this year. When is Boeing going to wake up and do something about it?

Who cares? Compare the hull values and you'll see what's really important. Would you rather buy an airplane that loses 8% in value a year or 13-20%?

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Airbus3801
Posted 2004-12-22 01:30:32 and read 12482 times.

Ok back to the original question then: What are they going to do about it?

Relocate from Chicago to Dayton. Would that make you happy -- they would then really be in the middle of the nowhere.

I personally will not fly a domestic U.S. carrier using Airbus equipment if I can find a comparable flight on Boeing equipment. What are you doing about it? I fly Song and even Ted over jetBlue all the time for this reason. I also will not step foot on Frontier if I don't have to.


Well hopefully now that everyone else has told you, Ted flies AIRBUS! In fact, United has the most Airbus aircraft then any other airline in the U.S. (I think). I don't see what you have against your eurobusses , because lots of people need to realize that Boeing is in trouble and pretending that airbus makes crap is stupid because if they were, why would so many people buy them?

Sorry if I come out hard and I don't mean offense to qwerty at all, it's just my $0.02

A I R B U S 3 8 0 #1


Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2004-12-22 02:00:11 and read 12273 times.

Qwerty:

Have you ever wondered why a small US airline like Frontier who wanted to buy Boeing - fully expected to be going with Boeing - ended up with Airbus?

The Frontier order was there for Boeing to lose, and they did. And it wasn't just about price.

cheers

mariner

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: DeltaMD11
Posted 2004-12-22 02:02:26 and read 12255 times.

Well Airbus3801, you threw your $0.02 in and I'm afraid I'm going to have to give you some change back. Northwest actually has the largest Airbus fleet in the US with its mixture of A319, A320, and A330 aircraft.

As far as Boeing being in a present state of hardship, it's going to take them several years to regain the market share that they once had. If you think about it, the 737NG's are still selling strong and will continue to sell strong for the forseeable future. The 7E7 is consolidating two aircraft (757 and 767) into one. The 777 is seeing fair sales, and will continue to sell well for quite a while (God it's hard to think that it's been 10 years already for the 777 in operation). The 747, is supposedly going to see a major revamp in an advanced series---and if Boeing can pull off what they did with the -400 series they'll be okay. Things don't happen overnight, but give it some time and Boeing will come out fine. Kudos to Airbus though, they've had a tremendous year!

Edit: Sorry, grammatical error.

[Edited 2004-12-22 02:05:01]

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Aither
Posted 2004-12-22 02:43:39 and read 12029 times.

Boeing still has a 50% market share in values...

So you're just asking why Boeing has no more 75% market share ?

I would rather ask why they should have 75% of market share ?


We have 2 companies with similar products + 2 Boeing focus markets having big troubles (USA & Japan).

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Soaringadi
Posted 2004-12-22 03:00:11 and read 11929 times.

Not that I "hate" Airbus or something.... and neither do I want to start an arguement but I recently came accross this quote:

"....the A340-600 sux, the constant oscillationns from turbuklence' make you spill your 'caf'e au lait'....."
Captain a340-600

These are the exact words the captain used. No personal opinions here since I have never flown on one.

Also they did say that it was the quietest aircraft though.

So coming back to the topic.... I think that Boeing is going to be helped by such things if the captains keep on saying these things.

peace out.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Francoflier
Posted 2004-12-22 03:09:41 and read 11878 times.

Actually, I think electing to fly a single aircraft make does not help the concerned aircraft maker.

I sounds more like a desperate measure, or pity!

If you want to help Boeing react, you should on the contrary fly the competition. Then I guess when Boeing realizes that airlines AND passengers are not 'happy' with the product and turn to the competition, especially the 'local' customers, it'll be the needed slap in the face.

That's kind of how Airbus was born after all...

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Cannikin
Posted 2004-12-22 03:18:32 and read 11826 times.

"If you want to help Boeing react, you should on the contrary fly the competition."

Thats like going to a sporting event and cheering for the other team to get your team to play better.  Smokin cool

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2004-12-22 03:45:27 and read 11691 times.

Cedarjet:

I suggest You studying the market effects of a little thing called "duopoly". In a nutshell: It's a condition where market is being controlled by two entities, where entity A is leading entity B in sales for a X number of years, followed by entity B leading entity A for Y number of years reciprocally. Don't worry, Boeing will be on top again. Just be patient and wait for the next big DL/CO/AA order once their 767s are too old to be profitable.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: CO737800
Posted 2004-12-22 03:50:26 and read 11657 times.

When the US market picks up again then Boeing will be back on top in terms of sales

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Ruscoe
Posted 2004-12-22 03:53:28 and read 11635 times.

At the present time Airbus have 247 orders and Boeing 213.
Boeing have far more widebody orders than Airbus so far this year.

This is not killing!

Ruscoe

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: PVG
Posted 2004-12-22 04:08:33 and read 11557 times.

The answer to the question is that they should move their production plants to Europe so that the European governments will subsidize their R&D plus take over their pension and health care costs so that they can sell their planes cheaper than their competitor and take market share. Why not? What's the old expression: "If you can't beat em join em!"

I like Airbuses just fine. What I don't understand is why Airbus crows about it's market share gains. Boeing's best customers in the U.S. can't afford to order pancakes for breakfast these days and Boeing still maintains 45 to 50% market share. So, what's so special about what Airbus is doing? Anyone can buy market share if you have a decent product to sell. Increasing shareholder value and producing a product that sells itself without heavy discounts is another issue.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Greaser
Posted 2004-12-22 04:10:52 and read 11546 times.

Boeing and industry analysts have already said they will be lagging behind Airbus in terms of sales for a few more years, as they re-group, re-organize and re-strategize. At least we all know now that at least some of the analysts are right once in a while.  Yeah sure

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Gdjet16
Posted 2004-12-22 04:13:24 and read 11527 times.

Francoflier, exactly which airlines are so 'unhappy' with Boeing's products? To Aither, I completely agree with you. Airbus and Boeing both make good products, so its only reasonable to assume that they each claim about a 50 percent market share.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Airplane
Posted 2004-12-22 05:25:09 and read 11278 times.

Airbus is killing Boeing in sales this year.

Right,

It's like Hyundai is also killing Mercedes Benz in sales this year too

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Continental
Posted 2004-12-22 05:35:07 and read 11236 times.

Once the airlines figure out how ridiculously stupid they were for buying an aircraft that was far too large and unnecessary (A380) for them, they'll all want a 7e7!!  Big grin

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Dc10guy
Posted 2004-12-22 05:52:26 and read 11144 times.

We need to set some ground rules for the Boeing vs Airbus fights. #1, Is this a Airplane vs airplane fight ? Or #2, Is this a Airbus the corporation vs the Boeing corporation fight ??? Here's my 2 cents. On a 100% scale... Boeing wins Airplane vs Airplane competition by 51% to 49%, Airbus wins the corporation competition by 90% to Boeings 10%.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2004-12-22 06:45:45 and read 10948 times.

There is an old business saying, "Sometimes the best deal is the one you don't do." Boeing learned in the 90s that giving away airplanes and running production lines that are going so fast that suppliers can't keep parts coming fast enough is no way to run a business.

Boeing has to answer to shareholders, and they, including me, want to see planes that are built profitably, even if that means passing potential orders because of unrealistic discounts demanded by the carriers.

Airbus, being controlled by state-run industries, is more interested in market share. Sales price is secondary to getting aircraft off the line and in the air.

Unfortunately for Boeing, some of its best customers, including AA, CO, DL, and UA, aren't in any position to buy aircraft. I'm sure AA would like to take more 737-800s, and all four carriers would love to start planning to replace the older 757s and 767s with 7E7s. I'm sure that those orders will come in, but probably not for 3 to 5 years.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Anxebla
Posted 2004-12-22 07:03:16 and read 10878 times.

Airplane...
Saying Hyundai is Airbus and Boeing is Mercedes-Benz, is not right. Especially on the B-737/A-320 comparison. Saludos!

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Ua777222
Posted 2004-12-22 10:21:11 and read 10356 times.

I will use the A32S and B73S as an example throughout his post and all expressions throughout this post are that of my own

Anxebla,

I think that's the point he's trying to show. Quality vs. Price. This is an on going battle of who can offer the cheapest price yet will provide a product of high quality. Eventually something somewhere in the product will suffer, and if it doesn't than the competitor is an idiot not to jump on that bandwagon.

Boeing is standing firm with their products in that they will not drop quality for price. Most if not all LCC's DO NOT buy new 737's in Bulk. I don't know exact numbers off the top of my head but the production of say the A32S vs. the B73SNG isn't even worth comparable. The A32S is much higher than the B73SNG. I don't understand why people keep bitching about how this is better than that and that is cooler than this or whatnot. You are comparing a/c that 1) In the same "class" yet so far apart 2) one a/c is being built in bulk compared to the other and 3) The two a/c makers are totally different in their approaches and final production of the product at hand.

Yes they both do make big bricks with wings but they are soooooo different in sooooo many ways. Yes they do make changes in their production in reaction to the other, TO A CURTAIN DEGREE (I.E. 787/7e7=A350, A380=B744Adv)!

Here's a question for ya! I am Pro-Boeing yet support Airbus in different ways. For all of those "I will pay more if I can get a Boeing over an Airbus" or "I will not fly an Airbus a/c over XXX Hours", What exactly are you saying. Are you holding against the airline, aircraft, or aircraft maker? If you look at the 737 vs. A32S the A32S probably has a better track record than the 737's built after 1989 (just about before/after the start of the A320-100). We even crab about how they make more and how they are cheaper so how does it have a better record yet at the same time still have more birds in the sky (seeing how the production rate for this family is faster than the 737 family.

All I can say through my (Personal Views/Expressions) is that people will hold their opinions for one reason yet say its another.

In response to the question;

I feel that it's a battle of old school vs. new school. Boeing seems to be holding its ground in how it operates and how it will make their products yet Airbus seems to be making their products based on what the customer needs/wants. Boeing will make a quality products (as does Airbus) but will hold its ground and not let anything slip an inch on its quality management. A loyal Boeing customer will come up to Boeing and state it's wishes. They will also mention of the rough times and competition between other airlines and how they need to purchance a/c for lower prices. Boeing says that they will "meet them half way" yet seems not to make it all the way. That customer turns around and is left to find a new a/c to purchase, at this point Airbus is there ready to win them over. Though this ambulance chaser approach might seem raticle they win the customer over and that's one more point for their score board.

Though I am a pro-Boeing person I really have to tip my hat off to Airbus for their ability to win a customer (even the most loyal customer of Boeing) over the computer yet still manage to produce a quality a/c at the price and standards that airlines need/wish to have.

I think this battle needs to stop b/c as long as there are a/c makers there will be a vs. b related battles. Give it up!

Thanks again.

UA777222

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: NumberTwelve
Posted 2004-12-22 10:58:27 and read 10237 times.

UA777 - sorry, the "Quality vs Price" argument is not an argument, it's (sorry to say that) stupid.

And of course, a product has to be made for customer - customers may be as loyal to the product as they want to: if a company doesn't hear the customers needs, they can leave. And a customer doesn't only want to have price (see the AirAsia comment in this forum) but also quality. You can't sell planes only via price, also quality has to be fine. And the airlines know that A has also good quality.
The times of monopoly have gone - and it seems as if B is very unhappy with it. Now they start to build modern and economic planes. And that's great. Otherwise they still would build more and more 767 and 757.

By the way, Dayflyer: would you please precise the topic name next time, otherwise topics like "aviation" or "question" would become more and more.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: ClearedDirect
Posted 2004-12-22 17:00:50 and read 8875 times.

I think the old saying "take care of the customer - or someone else will" is very appropriate in this case. It appears to me (through the comments by AirAsia and Spirit) that Airbus is being a true partner to potential customers while Boeing is trying to "sell" them.
Having been in corporate sales the majority of my career - the customer has to believe that the benefit equals (or beats) the cost. The Hyundai v. Mercedes analogy is very real. If someone wants (needs) transportation the sales approach for each manufacturer is totally different - one would sell on price the other on quality and possibly customer service. You have to know the customer and their needs - and right now I think Airbus is winning that fight. It appears to be a re-occurring theme that Airbus is doing more for the customer and is not winning on price alone.

CD

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: 1millionflyer
Posted 2004-12-23 02:01:55 and read 8714 times.

NumberTwelve

but the quality issue isn't about airworthiness. The a3XX series does not last as long as Boeing without a lot more maintenance.

They are cheaper to acquire but the total cost of ownership is the important number. Just ask America West, Airbus quietly replaced an entire tail empannage in back at the factory when the highest time A320 (40,000+ hours) developed mysterious cavitation issues in the tail. The engineers thought it was impossible until the reproduced in flight.

I am not A vs. B either, I love the A3xx series, and I like the 777. The truth is, Airbus is what you but for short term, Boeing is what you buy for long term. It is neither good nor bad, it is what it is.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Dc10guy
Posted 2004-12-23 03:00:08 and read 8635 times.

........."I am not A vs. B either, I love the A3xx series, and I like the 777. The truth is, Airbus is what you but for short term, Boeing is what you buy for long term. It is neither good nor bad, it is what it is." 1millionflyer That is not the truth. Airbuses last just as long as a Boeing will.................................. That's another made up lie by the Flag wavers. American's A300's have been around for a long time I know Fedex's A310's have been around a long time to ... Neither has plans to get rid of them soon.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2004-12-23 03:03:08 and read 8623 times.

Once the airlines figure out how ridiculously stupid they were for buying an aircraft that was far too large and unnecessary (A380) for them, they'll all want a 7e7!!

Tell that to everyone who was buying 747s 30 years ago... Really mature comment...  Yeah sure

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2004-12-23 03:08:39 and read 8619 times.

Why should Boeing fight to compete with Airbus in the low-margin commercial aircraft business, when they can make huge margins on the defense side of the business?

Take a look at profits...Boeing is posting huge profits despite the lackluster commercial sales. Boeing has chosen to de-emphasize its commercial business and pursue the more lucrative defense business. I can't say that I blame them.

Airbus, Embraer and Bombardier all rely heavily on gov't subsidies for their commercial aircraft business. Why should Boeing compete against that when they can get their own gov't subsidies on the defense side of the business?

Note: I'm not trying to start an A vs B war. Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer are ALL subsidy whores in one way or another.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: 1millionflyer
Posted 2004-12-23 03:10:28 and read 8608 times.

Dc10guy

I didn't say they woudn't last, I said over a long period of time the total cost of ownership (acquisition cost+maintenence) is higher for airbus after 10 or so years. so less than 10 years, Airbus is cheaper, after 10 years Airbus is more.

I am not a flagwaver by any strech, I TRY to fly on A3xx in the US.

this is based on fact not A v B.

I am sure NWA has spent more on Maint on the DC-9's than they paid for the entire airplane back in the day, that is total cost of ownership.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: BlueSky1976
Posted 2004-12-23 03:14:42 and read 8608 times.

flyPNS1:

Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer are ALL subsidy whores in one way or another.

About time someone said that. Welcome to my respected user list.



[Edited 2004-12-23 03:15:35]

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Dc10guy
Posted 2004-12-23 07:05:45 and read 8512 times.

1millionflyer, I'd like to see them numbers, Our Airbuses cost a lot less to fuel, maintain and fly then our Boeings. And they are all over 10 years old.

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: AirbusDriver
Posted 2004-12-23 09:59:13 and read 8447 times.

I flown both (B737-300/400 & A319/A320/A321)and (B767-200ER & A330-300) and hands down the Airbus is of better quality. Yes I know it's just my opinion, but after spending thousands of hours flying all of them...

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Scotron11
Posted 2004-12-23 10:08:11 and read 8433 times.

Well, to coin a phrase: I WANT THE 747ADV, and I want it NOW!!!!!!

Topic: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: NumberTwelve
Posted 2004-12-23 10:08:53 and read 8431 times.

1millionflyer: "They [Airbus] are cheaper to acquire but the total cost of ownership is the important number. Just ask America West, Airbus quietly replaced an entire tail empannage in back at the factory when the highest time A320 (40,000+ hours) developed mysterious cavitation issues in the tail. The engineers thought it was impossible until the reproduced in flight."

I remember when LH ordered 744's they sent a coworker from Lufthansa Technik (maintenance) to SEA to control Boeing's work. He was responsible that Boeing worked propperly especially in the part of the plane which will be very hard to controll afterwards.
This happened because of different occurences that time.
But that's a shame I think. To send somebody from airline's maintenance to check if plane has been built propperly.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2004-12-23 11:41:18 and read 8359 times.

"....the A340-600 sux, the constant oscillationns from turbuklence' make you spill your 'caf'e au lait'....."
So coming back to the topic.... I think that Boeing is going to be helped by such things if the captains keep on saying these things.


Sorry - this ranks amongst the most stupid comments in the history of Airliners.net

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: NumberTwelve
Posted 2004-12-23 11:49:12 and read 8342 times.

BestWestern, sorry to be contrary but this one from Continental is much more stupid :
"Once the airlines figure out how ridiculously stupid they were for buying an aircraft that was far too large and unnecessary (A380) for them, they'll all want a 7e7!!"

It's the injured vainness of a fan from a company that had the (almost) monopoly and now has a powerfull competitor.

So everybody who will buy an A plane buys it for only short time (B is something to fly for ages), A costs lots of money after buying, making no deal is better than making a deal (as long as they aren't able to make the deal), ...
It's a big kindergarden in SEA.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Warren747sp
Posted 2004-12-23 13:22:26 and read 8248 times.

I think Boeing is doing pretty well, considering
1.it is a premium product at a premium price.
2.no government subsidies.
3.U.S. law against kickbacks or bribes.
4.Anti US sentiment thru out Middle East, Europe, South Asia, etc.
5.No huge Tanker order from government.
W

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: BestWestern
Posted 2004-12-23 13:38:33 and read 8202 times.

Warren, are you being Ironic or something?

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: BENNETT123
Posted 2004-12-23 14:10:04 and read 8149 times.


Boeing may be correct. Everyone may choose to fly on Boeing 7E7.

However, given that the market has tended to rise year on year, this means a constant increase in slots. How many airports have the ability to simply keep on growing.

This could be a high risk strategy, they need to have the B747ADV, and they need it BEFORE the A380 enters service.

There is also the issue, of what comes after the Boeing 737NG. The type has been in production for nearly 40 years. How much further can the design be streatched.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: PSAelectra
Posted 2004-12-23 15:35:22 and read 8039 times.

Re NumberTwelve:



Not to dispute your claim regarding the LTK rep visiting Everett to inspect a LH 744, this isn't something new. Most if not all delivery customers have reps on the line to oversee production. That's how they keep the manufacturer honest! After all, business is business.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Boeing nut
Posted 2004-12-23 15:39:11 and read 8029 times.

Boeing is "awake" and very aware of what they are doing. It's not thier fault that thier sales are not up to where they used to be. There is one big reason for Boeing being behind, but I'm not going to open up that can of worms in this thread.

Examples of how Boeing is awake.

- They did not go forward with the 747-500/600 program because of lack of interest. Soon after that, the Asian recession hit. If Boeing went forward with the program they would have lost thier ass. Big time.

- Sonic Cruiser. Big interest at first, but then 19 examples of cancers of humanity terminated interest in this aircraft because no one had the money. They wisely shelved the program instead of "pridefully" going ahead.

- 7E7. Boeing waited until they had the means and the technology before saying, yes, we can do this and offer it to the airlines.

So, Boeing is awake. They just have some serious hurdles that they have no control over at the moment.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Qxq400
Posted 2004-12-23 15:59:57 and read 7988 times.

Never any company that stops manufacturing the best plane ever made (757).
Can not be a serious player in the retail airplane sales. Sad

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: BAtripleseven
Posted 2004-12-23 16:05:20 and read 7977 times.

I am a big boeing supporter but airbus is killing them. The 7e7 is nothing compared to the A380...come on boeing!

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: VS11
Posted 2004-12-23 16:26:16 and read 7936 times.

Indians indeed fly to India on VS/EK - quite a bit in fact (at least from Boston).

VS11

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Ken777
Posted 2004-12-23 17:48:15 and read 7842 times.

It appears from some comments that Boeing is down to 10% market share. They are not in that bad a shape.

While Airbus has an advantage in some areas Boeing is moving towards a possible advantage with the 7E7 technology - not just the one line, but the technology as a whole. If they move "E" technology to the 737 line and add bits to the 777 and 747 line they may well have a major advantage over Airbus.

The other important issue is how the airline business will go over the next 10 - 20 years. The birth of the 747 was at a time when people felt it was safe to fly - there was no need for security checks at airports. It opened up a huge market and a lot of 747s were built to accommodate that market. The 380 is coming out in a totally different time and sales are, to some degree, based on the hope that things don't get worse. If they do then 380s will make good freighters. (Note: like a lot of people, I'm an optimist in this area, but recognize that terrorists can have an impact on the future of the industry.)

Where the A -v- B markets stand today have some weight on where they will go in the future, but this is a long term market with years required for the development to delivery of a new product. Both companies have the financial power and intellectual potential to lead in the market and the current positions don't reflect where they will be in 5 to 10 years.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Gearup
Posted 2004-12-23 18:24:29 and read 7795 times.

Sonic Cruiser. Big interest at first, but then 19 examples of cancers of humanity terminated interest in this aircraft because no one had the money. They wisely shelved the program instead of "pridefully" going ahead.

The SC had one purpose and one purpose only. It was a marketing ploy (and not a bad one at that) to steel Airbus thunder around the launch of the A380, that's all. I don't believe Boeing were ever really serious about it's development. At best, it was a trial balloon.

I think Boeing should retire Harry and put Mullally in charge!

GU

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Cb777
Posted 2004-12-23 20:04:30 and read 7713 times.

Maybe Gordon Bethune as ceo maybe the answer

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: DeltaWings
Posted 2004-12-23 20:09:00 and read 7697 times.

I am a big boeing supporter but airbus is killing them. The 7e7 is nothing compared to the A380...come on boeing!

What has this supposed to mean?
Do you mean, that the 7e7 is nothing, because it is alot smaller then the A380? And does the A380 have bleedless engines? NO

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Beeweel15
Posted 2004-12-24 13:39:48 and read 7520 times.

THE BOTTOM LINE

1-Airbus is more a neich supplier of aircraft there is something to fit every individual need.

2-Boeing threw away a lot of good stuff, The MDC Line. Think of it a lot of folks who bought MDC have gone to Airbus. As I have said before many times every time I see an A340 rolling down the runway to lift off I say that could have been an MD11 if Boeing just spent a couple of bucks to improve the aircraft. I am still waiting to see if they have the gutts to dust off the MD12 plans and take on the A380.

BOEING WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: QuestAir
Posted 2004-12-24 15:31:43 and read 7462 times.

I remember reading somewhere that a Boeing official said in the 1970's about Airbus that they'd probably make twelve planes and then go out of business. But a few years later, when Eastern ordered A300's, I think Boeing started to see Airbus as a more 'formidable' competitor.

In my opinion, Boeing was overconfidant and a bit arrogant of its #1 position. And even though I do support Boeing (I have relatives, friends who work there) I think that Boeing should have seen this coming. What they don't have is the ability (or at least not as much as Airbus) to adapt and change when the times do.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Avek00
Posted 2004-12-24 15:51:08 and read 7420 times.

"Boeing threw away a lot of good stuff, The MDC Line. Think of it a lot of folks who bought MDC have gone to Airbus. As I have said before many times every time I see an A340 rolling down the runway to lift off I say that could have been an MD11 if Boeing just spent a couple of bucks to improve the aircraft."

1. If the MDC line was such good stuff, McDonnell-Douglas would have remained in business as a standalone company.

2. What would Boeing have gained by cannibalizing sales from its superior-performance 777 to support a competing aircraft that was rendered obsolete before it was even delivered in significant numbers?

[Edited 2004-12-24 15:54:36]

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Caribb
Posted 2004-12-24 15:51:35 and read 7420 times.

Although I would have liked to see Boeing either modify the 747 or build a new aircraft to compete with the A380 (if only to protect the high capacity market share they hold now) I think they are still on track with their strategy for the 7E7 (or 787 if that's what they are calling it now). Fundamentally I believe Boeing's concept of more point to point long haul flights with the 7E7 will win out over mega hubbing with the A380. As people have suggested it may take time and experience for it to set in first though.

I suspect people arriving with 599 other passengers then mixing in with a few hundred more at customs in some large hub will find it all a bit exhausting when they realize instead of doing this to connect they could have taken a competitor with a 7E7 direct nonstop to their destination. Progress in travel in my opinion (and from a passenger's point of view not an airline executive) is to lessen the time, stress, hassle, and line ups and make the whole movement from your home front door to your destination front door quicker, more comfortable and easier in the end. If you improve comfort only to increase stress, time and bottle necks at the airport you don't really gain overall. So the 7E7 to me should be somewhat more streamlined for the flying passenger from start to end. But that's just my opinion.

Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: Boeing nut
Posted 2004-12-24 18:00:19 and read 7373 times.

The SC had one purpose and one purpose only. It was a marketing ploy (and not a bad one at that) to steel Airbus thunder around the launch of the A380, that's all.

If you really believe that, then I've got some great ocean front property in Nebraska to sell you. Do you know how much money was spent developing/studying the Sonic Cruiser? Boeing is too wise a company to make such a stupid move spending that much money on a marketing scheme.

Boeing threw away a lot of good stuff, The MDC Line.

For the same reason the ceased the 757. Nobody was buying them.

As I have said before many times every time I see an A340 rolling down the runway to lift off I say that could have been an MD11 if Boeing just spent a couple of bucks to improve the aircraft.

Or just buy a superior aircraft known as the Boeing 777.

I am still waiting to see if they have the gutts to dust off the MD12 plans and take on the A380.

On the contrary. Boeing has the guts to not take on the A380 because they know that in all probability, Airbus will not make a profit on the program. So why would they get into something they know they would certainly lose money on?

I'm thinking that Boeing is not the one(s) that should be waking up here.



Topic: RE: When Is Boeing Going To Wake Up?
Username: AvObserver
Posted 2004-12-25 07:21:07 and read 7221 times.

"I think Boeing should retire Harry and put Mullally in charge!"

Gearup, I agree with Boeing nut's rebuttal of your Sonic Cruiser theory but on this other point, you may be onto something. Not in that Mullally is necessarily the best choice for a CEO they could make but in that hard-nosed dollars and cents man Stonecipher just can't see the big picture with his seriously flawed strategy for BCA. As the editorial in this week's AW&ST decreed, Boeing ought to rethink it's now over 5-year old doctrine, adopted under Phil Condit, to forgo pursuing market share in low-margin or even occasionally unprofitable LCC deals. Better 737 residual values will mean little if the A320 family sales surge with LCCs, in particular, eventually pushes the Boeing line out of the market. Stonecipher's credo echoes this and fails to see how critical the loss of market share has become. Replacing chief salesman,Toby Bright, for poor sales performance ignores the likely fact that the "no unprofitable deals" mandate probably all but tied Bright's hands with the LCCs, who are even more driven than the majors to get the best deal possible. While short-term profitability is great for the shareholders, sacrificing market share for it at every turn will in time, cripple BCA's ability to compete with Airbus because by then, the European airframer will have such a dominant marketshare, airlines will be nearly dependent on them for fleet renewals to maintain commonality with the rest of their fleets. While pursuing market share at ALL costs may be unwise, virtually handing it to your competitor due to an inflexible business policy is equally unsound and it will eventually drive BCA entirely out of the market. I'd doubt Stonecipher cares about BCA's long-term health because he's getting out soon and the profitability gains made during his tenure will put him in good stead with the board and shareholders and help him negotiate a generous severance. He's not the man to lead Boeing into the future, despite having been a big booster of the 7E7. I believe Alan Mullally, at least, though interviews I've seen, has the passion and caring, as well as the knowledge, to put Boeing Commercial back on a more proper course.


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