Heard on CNBC, will find link.

Not yet though Mr Leahy from Airbus was quoted yesterday as saying that the RFP they had responded to from JAL was for 50 A320 series. JAL has nothing on their website yet but will be interesting given they obviously moved forward their decision on the 7E7.

Regards

If confirmed, will be surprising penetration of A to B stronghold. Real surprise.

not heard or seen anything about this, JAL is set to sell it's entire fleet of Airbus planes in the near future, this is a suprising move if it proves to be true.

G'day

Not quite yet!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1518&ncid=1518&e=1&u=/afp/20050113/bs_afp/japanairjalairbusboeingcompany_050113075918

Cheers

Peter

WHAAAT!!!!!!

U gotta be kidding?? Feeling my bloodpressure rising...JAL, of all carriers??

Since when did JAL need 50 narrowbody a/c? Dont belive it til I see it in b/w.

Micke

i'd think JL would lean the 737's way, they've been quite clear in the fact that they are going to dispose of the airbus fleet gained from JAS, not sure what they'd want with a single aisle A320. they have a widebody fleet, this will be interesting to see.

I would be surprised if they buy the A320s. They already have a few 734s in their mainline fleet. They have a few more in their JEX and JTA fleets. I would put my money on Boeing. Some of these 150 have to be replacements for the JAS MD80s and MD90s. How many did they inherit?

The article mentions, "Geoffrey Tudor (JAL) said JAL saw a need for single-aisle aircraft for the growth of its domestic network, particularly in light of the expansion of Haneda airport near Tokyo.

Haneda, Asia's biggest airport, is primarily for domestic flights and is set to open a fourth runway in 2009, expanding by 40 percent its number of takeoff and landing slots."

HND might be expanding but so is Japan Rail which is in direct competition with JL and NH. Is there really a need for that many aircraft on domestic routes when almost every major city on the big three islands will be accessible by shinkansen not long after the HND expansion is complete?

I have the feeling politics play a major role in aircraft orders placed by JAL.

So perhaps they want to stay friends with the EU.

Not filling a WTO complaint for the enormous Japanese government subsidies for the Boeing 7E7 was a good start & perhaps even part of the deal..

Boeing needs to fight tooth and nail for this order. If JAL orders the 320, that will establish an airbus relationship far more likely to result in a 380 order than without.

If Boeing is ever going to bargain on price, now is the time.

it'd be hard for JL to go past boeing, JL has invested alot in the design and layout for the 777 and 7E7, the relationship is solid and as i said JL is looking to offload the Airbus fleet inherited from JAS.

interesting to see the outcome.

If this agreement does go through then Boeing will loose their last stronghold. I think JL will go for the B737 considering the strong links between Boeing and Japanese companies, but I guess we'll just have to wait...

Horus

Maybe the trade deficit Japan-US plays also plays a role in these multi billion contracts.

How is the trade deficit with Japan lately? $7 Billion ?
(that is $7b .. a month  )

Despite Keesje's inane innuendo, JAL is a private corporation that is not owned or operated by the government. The same independence does not apply in the case of Airbus.

Airbus are on a major roll at the moment!

The thread title is completely misleading. The link you refer to only states that there is a 50% that JAL may go for the 320 over the 73G, which is pretty obvious, as they are the only two completing aircraft.

JoseMEX-CNBC has been reporting all morning that they received a report that JAL has decided to go with the A-320. Somehow, this hasn't made it onto their website, however, the thread title is NOT misleading if CNBC has their facts straight.

Nothing in the WSJ. Until I see it there, it's bunk.  

The thread title is very misleading. All that Airbus said was "They have 50/50 chance." I think JAL buying A320s seems very far fetched to say the least.

JAL's current plan is to cut cost by simplifying it's fleet structure. They will accomplish this by finding one fleet type for aging MD-90/81/87s that they acquired from JAS. Lets not forget that JAL has subsidiary called JAL Express (JEX) that has been showing growth in the past few years. They operate all B737-400s that also needs to be replaced in the near future. They already have the "know-how" of operating the B737s. Why would they go for A320s? If they really liked A320s they would have purchased them about 10 years ago to satisfy this niche.

All I can say is that JAL is absolutely into Boeing. They love the latest addition of B777-300ERs because it's so efficient and cheaper to operate than their current fleet of B747-400s. For medium market, it is likely that B767-200/300/300ERs will eventually be replaced by B7E7s. This airplane supposed to be cheap as hell to operate too. And my money is on new generation B737 for small market domestic shorthauls. Why wouldn't they? It all makes sense to me.

A380's? We have to wait and see on that one.

TokyoNarita.

When Airbus designates a market, such as LCC, to be "strategic", price is no object for Airbus. If LCC such as Easyjet is "strategic" well then so is Japan Airlines.

I would not be surprised if Airbus offers a price so very low that JAL will not rationally be able to reject it. Through the wonders of cost accounting and the benefits of real friendly "stakeholders", any loss on the sale can be allocated away to the A400M, sales of golden-gilded private jets to Arab sheikhs, and some fancy lunches that I am sure Foeregard and Leahy eat on the company expense account.

On the other hand, I think Airbus has a decent shot with JAL with the A380. Singapore Air, Air France, and other premium airlines plan to operate it into Tokyo. If the A380 does what Airbus claims it will and can draw high-yield customers away, then JAL will strongly have to consider the A380. And so will ANA.

Another Airbus PR coup. Even the possibility of this gives me the willies. As someone has said in an earlier post, this is the time to negotiate on price for the 737.

Its an article in Yahoo / Aviation news about JL and 320, it say 50/50......

Micke

If JL does order the A320 (but will it be A319, A320 or A321), they better have one heck of a deal on spare parts from Airbus. Of course, given that JL is a major customer for GE engines, the A320's JL buys will all be using CFM56 derivatives.  

Look what it says: Airbus executive vice president John Leahy told the Nihon Keizai Shimbun from Paris in the daily's Thursday evening edition that Airbus was competing with Boeing to replace about 50 older planes in the JAL fleet. Airbus believes it has a 50-50 chance of winning the order of that size, a person close to the negotiations told AFP.


No s**t! Really, I didnt know that it was either Airbus or Boeing, and it was either 737 ar A32X.

Source:AFP - French News Agency. Interviewed: Airbus executive vice president

Now ook at the title of the article on the webpage, and how its all portrayed out.

Hmmm.
I smell "bias" in the air.

Still no mention on WSJ's page. This smells to me like a press agency drinking too much kool-aid.

If they choose the A320 might seem that is based on political reasons, so they can get the EU off their back about the 7E7 subsidies. Or is it part of the current discussion about that between A & B... a compromise? let A get into Japan as part of the deal?

Anyway.. i am a Boeing guy, but I do prefer the A320 family over the 737NG. I cant wait for B to replace the 737 line with a new 7E7 derivative for short hauls/single aisle. Being JAL a premium airline, the A320 might suit them better after all. I also think that JAL should get tha A380. After all, it was designed with NRT in their minds. right?

maybe JAL is doing a Lufthansa...playing Airbus against Boeing to get a better price. Who knows.

It would be odd that JAL would want the A320 after ANA gave theirs up...I would expect them to match each other move for move.

Also on Reuters, through http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1105612720.html

January 13, 2005
Japan Airlines is in talks to buy up to 50 Airbus' A320 passenger jets, the Japanese daily Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported on Thursday, quoting a senior Airbus official.

Executive Vice President John Leahy was quoted as telling the newspaper that Airbus wants to win an order from JAL within three to four months.

The A320 family of planes -- the A318, A319, A320 and A321 -- are Airbus's short-haul fleet and biggest sellers, competing with Boeing's 737.

The newspaper quoted Leahy as saying JAL was expected to replace about 50 older passenger jets, including its Boeing 737 models.

A spokesman for JAL said he could not confirm the newspaper report.

"maybe JAL is doing a Lufthansa...playing Airbus against Boeing to get a better price. Who knows. "

Well in my new Webster´s dictionary "doing a Lufthansa" is meaning buying the aircraft that suits their requirements best. You better check on yours or better get a new one.

Well IMO it is impossible that the Airbus 320 is selected for other reasons then price.

If Airbus DID win the JAL order, the two biggest airlines in Japan would each be repesented by the two largest commercial aircraft companies in the world. Airbus would have JAL and Boeing would have ANA.

As is mentioned in the other thread on this subject where this article from a newspaper is posted http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuoteCompanyNewsArticle.jhtml?duid=mtfh84534_2005-01-13_09-58-29_t278928_newsml

It would seem that JAL doesn't know they are going to buy Airbus. It also seems that this happens a lot with Airbus. Word gets out to some newspaper or other media outlet that xxxx airline is in talks with Airbus about buying xxx number of aircraft. Do you ever wonder why this is? I wonder if Boeing is in talks with JAL also. If they are, somehow it didn't get into the press like Airbus negotiations did. One could even conclude this is a planned strategy if one had a suspious mind, but such a strategy has its pitfalls as well.

I do agree with N79969 that JAL might be able to get, shall we say "a decent"
price from Airbus. Why Airbus might even be willing to work a combo deal here if they are in a good mood! An a320 here, an a380 there, etc. This might even be one to keep in mind for future reference to governing trade organizations from both the Airbus and Boeing side. I think Airbus feels it is entitled to at least half(more if possible) of every market.

It will be interesting to watch whichever way it goes!

Regards

Why would JAL buy Airbus, when they have such a partnership with Boeing???!


That makes no sense.

It would be really weird for JAL to buy A320s while their primary competitor is phasing them out of service. I wonder if this is at all about product differentiation and competition from the two Japanese carriers. AQ and HA have always had separate planes so that they could advertise having separate products since HA was traditionally a Douglas customer and AQ was for Boeing. I am really curious to see who gets the order. They are both good planes, but have been on the market a rather long time. In the next 5 years we will probably see replacement rumors about both with new derivatives featuring 7E7/A350 technology of more composites and bleedless engines.

Would be pretty interesting if JAL already a B737 operator really went for the A320 series while ANA is in the process of dropping its current A320s fleet in favor for 737NGs..

But then again, we've all seen stranger things happen before.

Why would JAL buy Airbus, when they have such a partnership with Boeing???!

I'm sure people said the same thing about BA, LH, UA, etc. etc.  

Of course, given that JL is a major customer for GE engines, the A320's JL buys will all be using CFM56 derivatives.

...JL has a much longer/stronger relationship with PW




If Airbus DID win the JAL order, the two biggest airlines in Japan would each be repesented by the two largest commercial aircraft companies in the world. Airbus would have JAL and Boeing would have ANA.

How exactly would "Airbus have JAL" when the overwhelming majority of that airline's fleet/seatcount would be on relatively new Boeings?




Anyways, much as I like to see the A32x trumping the 737... I'll believe JL ordering Airbus shorthaulers about ten years after the planes fly in their colors. Technical merit notwithstanding, I'd say the only way Airbus would win this would be by a compensation package so outrageous that JL could not justify refusing it..... 'course, ya know what Boeing/USA will IMMEDIATELY do in response to that  

This title is completely asinine. It could just as easily say "JAL maybe orders 50 B737 aircraft" and have precisely the same meaning.

"Not filling a WTO complaint for the enormous Japanese government subsidies for the Boeing 7E7 was a good start & perhaps even part of the deal.."


OMG, ROFLOL!!!! The Blind leading the Blind.

RayChuang

I'm sure Airbus will give a heck of a sweet deal for 50 frames like what they did with AK's 40+40 frame order. So sweet AK was in a shock and accepted right away eventhough they were initially planning to order B738s.  

JL isn't about the replace its 20-odd fleet of Airbus A300-600R anytime soon. The 7E7 order may replace these or its older 767s first. Who knows, its still at least five year away.

As for the 737 vs. A320 question, the A320 order wouldn't be unprecedented because of the following:

1. Cargo: A320 has containerized cargo system. Cargo loaders are basically at every domestic airport, so investment costs will be virtually nil. Loading bulk cargo onto a 737 can be a pain for ground handlers.

2. Engines: IAE has IHI work content while CFM has basically zero Japanese content.

Taking these two factors into account the A320 comes out on top. The 737NG will have similarities to the 734 but its will basically mean an introduction of a new type to JL.

Having the A320 will make the introduction of the A380 bit more easier.
JL is in no hurry to replace any of its 744s as plenty of older 747classics are still flying around.

I agree, the A320 might come out on top, especially if Airbus decides to give them away at their usual flea market prices.

However, I'm all for boeing, and hopefully, politics will play out (pls don't attack me on this). Just imagine 737-700/800 with winglets in JL livery, mmmmmmmmmmm.

If I was Boeing now is the time to take a loss and sell to JAL at lower then cost. They have to keep JAL

JAL has always been a loyal Boeing customer. I find it surprising that they might be interested in the A320.

Hey Wil welcome to the forums !! yes imagine 737-700/800 with winglests in JL livery.....CHEERS !
!

I find the containerized cargo ability of the A320 overrated. The A320 uses a special ULD, the LD-3-46, which is a cut down LD-3 with contours on both sides. It is only loadable on A320s. The A320 cannot take regular height containers. Since most cargo is bound for international destinations, they would still have to bulk it or reload it into another container/pallet.

Also, JAL has been moving towards GE as their preferred engine supplier. Except for the A-market 777s, 767-200s, early 767-300s, and classic 747s, JAL has chosen GE to power their aircraft. The CFM is a joint venture between GE and SNECMA.

The 737NG would not be like introducing a new type. For maintenance, yes, since it's systems are quite different from the classics. But for pilots, the type rating is the same as the classics and the screens can be configured to display information the same as the classics. There will only be a minimal differences course. The FA's don't have to learn anything new, nor do the ramp workers.

I think the real PR coup here is that Airbus has succeeded in making a news story about something that shouldn't be news to anyone.

Airbus competing for a JAL order? What's so groundbreaking about this? News organizations misrepresent the aviation industry all the time, but this is ridiculous.

Aaron G.

>If I was Boeing now is the time to take a loss and sell to JAL at lower then cost. They have to keep JAL<

Yea they definitely have to do that, but lets say they break even or even lose money on a 737 order. Would it be necessary given that JL has already ordered the 7E7 and won't have to order any new planes for a while (their 744s are going to last quite a few more years)?

Now, if only they can convince JL to wait for a 737 replacement to be launched then agree to let the japanese build part of the plane...


>Hey Wil welcome to the forums !! yes imagine 737-700/800 with winglests in JL livery.....CHEERS ! !<

Thnx John! Hope to see you here more often!

Hold the news release.

"In an effort to safe money, the US Air Force is in discussion with FedEx and Airbus to secure a large A380 order to replace the aging DC-10s and C-17s"

This is a really surprising report, especially ANA has just decided to switch from Airbus A320 to Boeing 737NGs. JAL is traditionally a strong Boeing operator, even the Airbus used now is inherited by JAS. I think Boeing 777/7E7 will have nothing to do with the narrowbody aisle a/c decisions. Even if JAL buys the 50 A320s, it is still a mainly Boeing operator. Don't worry B fans! It is just a relatively small part of JAL's fleet...

I personally like Airbus A320 better too... it provides nice headroom and slightly wider aisle and possibly better working environment for F/As.

Carfield

>Even if JAL buys the 50 A320s, it is still a mainly Boeing operator. Don't worry B fans! It is just a relatively small part of JAL's fleet<

That's true, but although JL does have a huge fleet, 50 a/c is quite alot of frames. Aren't we talking about JL's entire narrow body fleet here?



>I personally like Airbus A320 better too... it provides nice headroom and slightly wider aisle and possibly better working environment for F/As.<

So............. you're telling me that Airbus isn't the evil empire that's out to destroy everything thats righteous and pure (ie. Boeing)???  

"But for pilots, the type rating is the same as the classics and the screens can be configured to display information the same as the classics. ".....the Hapag-Lloyd pilots needed more additional training than at first expected, due to different behavior during landing.

JAL didn't marry Boeing, they bought aircraft from them. I really don't get why brand loyalty is brought up whenever an airline goes to buy a plane. Airlines have a business to run and it would be sad to think that these airline execs are flushing economic decision making down the drain because they have an A or B fetish.

"In an effort to safe money, the US Air Force is in discussion with FedEx and Airbus to secure a large A380 order to replace the aging DC-10s and C-17s"

Hmmm... A380's in USAF colors, being refueled by KC-330's....  

What's the world becoming of?

Cheers!

The magic word is "Maybe" - maybe they do, maybe they don't.
I don't understand why this produces nightmares in Seattle or in airliners.net-world.
Isn't it realistic and wise for JL to think about all the possibilities they have?
And as long A gets subsidies and A sells its planes under price, why shouldn't they buy some of them instead of B's high quality products.

The magic word is "Maybe" - maybe they do, maybe they don't.

Exactly

Isn't it realistic and wise for JL to think about all the possibilities they have?

Right again.

At least we knew that JAL had issued an RFP. This is good because we now have an idea of the Airbus proposal in response. I think JAL will have two aggressive proposals and it could go to either manufacturer, irrespective JAL will get a good deal. Mr Leahy gave an interview to a media group and he was commenting on Airbus in Japan when he made these comments, it was at the EADS media conference a few days ago and I feel this is what some of these reports are based on. At least he confirmed the campaign was coming to a close in Q1.

All we can do now is wait unfortunately.

Regards

Airbus has been knocking on the doors of JAL and ANA for the longest time, and these doors have the creak open at some point in time.

Recent A320 family successes in Asia (Tiger AW, AirAsia, Valuair, Jetstar / Jetstar Asia, Air Deccan, Kingfisher, Cebu Pacific etc) clearly point to the strong merits that the A320 has. And I do not see politics as the all-engulfing reason for the A320 family's bull run here.

So an A320 family of airliners in the colours of JAL is not at all unthinkable - and I am also quite certain that given the tone coming out from Airbus's top man, it is not just a RFP.

I must admit that prior to this, I have always thought that the first airbus ordered by JAL will be the A380 and share the feeling of irony that others have voiced - that JAL is acquiring A320s at a time ANA is disposing them.

Perhaps this is yet another wake-up call for Boeing to already look beyond the B737NG family of airliners.

KC Sim
Bangkok

Well said EnviroTO.

Like trucking, car rental and shipping companies, airlines should operate what best meets their needs (routes, loads, airport size/charges).

To say one manufacturer best meets an airline's EVERY fleet requirement, at ALL times, suggests the airline needs to look harder at the competition, or stop management writing friendly RFP's based on their preferred company's model specs.

As Panamn_DC10, said, this subject was brought during the Airbus Press conference held on 12th January.

A japanese reporter asked Forgeard about link with Japan, both in terms of customer, and industry.

Of course they would answer that they bid following JAL's RFP. So why do people jump off their seats and say it's typical PR BS, and we don't see the same from BCA.

Well sorry if BCA does not say it, but why blame Airbus for it?

I know the deal is quite close anyway this time for once.

We had the visit of the director of maintenance & engineering of JAL twice in two weeks at HQ and customer services in Toulouse in November, which is quite rare.

Of course, as indicated before, this show that they are especially focusing about spare parts and dispatch reliability issues.

Anyway, they ve been working on it for a while now.

Lately, we have been asked to provide JAL with IFE catalogue for A320Family, so they are seriously looking at this, not like previous bids.