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Topic: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Jetbluefan1
Posted 2005-01-27 00:32:01 and read 8951 times.

http://www.btnmag.com/businesstravelnews/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000777295

7x to LAX, 5x to SFO, 3x to SEA. Other sources claim SJU and Aruba are also two other destinations that'll be served.

Didn't see anything announced as far as fares, whether or not mainline will be completely replaced with Song service, etc. Will let you know when I find out.

JetBluefan1

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-01-27 00:39:03 and read 8910 times.

Extensive discussions about this morning's announcement here:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1920988/

Delta mainline will remain on LAX/SFO-JFK. They will no longer be on JFK-SJU/AUA/SEA, which will go to Song. Delta is also ending JFK-SAN at the end of the month and JFK-DEN in April.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-01-27 00:40:35 and read 8869 times.

Can't wait for Song to announce their own route for once. Fly another B6 route why don't they. They need to get there own route structure maybe other cities but don't have all JFK-Every B6 destination. It is getting old and stupid. 3X Seattle? Will that work?

jetBlueAtJFK

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Jetbluefan1
Posted 2005-01-27 00:49:29 and read 8828 times.

MAH, thanks for pointing out the discussion. Thought it was somewhere but couldn't seem to find it within all this excitement.

Please ignore this thread and go to the link that MAH4546 has selflessly posted.

JetBluefan1

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: N317AS
Posted 2005-01-27 00:54:20 and read 8815 times.

Sweet. Finally something different in SEA!!!

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-01-27 01:00:56 and read 8790 times.

The AUA flights only operate on Saturdays and I took a couple sample fares O/W and they go for $238.60!!! Wow. A bit to much.

SFO and LAX normally O/W goes for $144!!Alot too

I guess SOng charges more to go into bigger cities b/c with those fares they are flying HIGH. No to brag about B6 but they have much lower O/W fares then that. Song doesn't win that one.

( I checked about 5 flights all different dates and times)

Check those high prices out yourself

jetBlueAtJFK

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Airlinerfreak
Posted 2005-01-27 01:20:05 and read 8735 times.

Yay! A bigger presence for Song at LAX. I have got a question though. Do you think that Song will survive on this route? With all the competition and all the empty seats there already are, what makes them think that they will survive on this route? Also isn't it a bit hefty to go 7x's a day? Just asking....

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Alb222
Posted 2005-01-27 01:29:18 and read 8703 times.

It was just mentioned that fares on Song are more than JetBlue. If one were to check fares from May on when song enters the JFK/LA market, the lowest fare on both B6 and DL are 144 O/W. I am quite sure that by the time Song does enter the market, fares will drop.
Sarcasm does not belong in these forums. As does information that is not true. Let's check our facts before we post stuff that is not true.
Any of you can check B6 or DL for any date after May 1 and you will see in many instances B6 is the more expensive one..............that's okay too, especially if B6 has already sold a lot of seats.............whether Song will make it only time will tell.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: ScottB
Posted 2005-01-27 01:43:34 and read 8665 times.

Alb222-

Your problem is that you don't drink the blue Kool-Aid. You see, if Song is charging more than jetBlue on a certain route on a certain day, it's because Song is "too expensive" or trying to gouge the customer. Conversely, if Song is charging less than jetBlue on a certain route on a certain day, it's because they can't fill the planes and no one wants to fly Song and jetBlue is able to charge more because it's better.

And if you don't drink the blue Kool-Aid, you'd know that Delta had been flying from JFK to LAX, SFO, SEA, SLC, PHX, FLL, MCO, TPA, and PBI before jetBlue existed. But hey, you wouldn't want facts to get in the way.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-01-27 01:45:21 and read 8656 times.

When I say I checked dates...well I did buddy. Plug in may 1st you get 1 95 and 3 124's. That's less than 144, then plug in may 2nd you get a ton of 124's then plug in May 3rd and on you get N/S O/W fares of 95's. SO don't tell me to check when I did and I am right. Nice try though.

JFK-SF area on May 1st I get an 85 and 144's but flights are missing so the bucket system is in there and then on may 2nd I get 85's, 95's, 124's, and then May 3rd on N/S O/W are 85!

JFK-SEA on may 1st and 2nd are 124 and then May 3rd on is 85!

I think I checked my facts, got them right and when I say I checked, chances are I did. So there are the facts Alb222.

jetBlueAtJFK

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: CMK10
Posted 2005-01-27 02:00:07 and read 8619 times.

How many DL Mainline flights will remain on the JFK-LAX/SFO routes and what aircraft will they use?

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Jfklganyc
Posted 2005-01-27 02:05:19 and read 8600 times.

Is DL ending JFK-DEN? When was that done?

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-01-27 02:07:53 and read 8595 times.

According to the site it should be about 4 and they have 757's and 763's operating them.

jetBlueAtJFK

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Alb222
Posted 2005-01-27 02:12:26 and read 8574 times.

The problem is everybody knows everything. In 35 years in the aviation business (and no, not with Delta) things have gone through a big change. LCC's have the advantage of being non-union with lower costs. Legacy carriers will never be able to match the LCC's.
Fares go up and down. I checked every date from May to Sept on our computer and found that on 92.6% of the dates B6 and DL offer the same fare. A 10 or 20 fare difference will not alter your airline of choice. Other things will..................where will your DL miles take you as compared to B6? I'll spend the extra bucks to earn a free Europe ticket.
And Scott B, your analogy is totally false. For each time you find DL more expensive, I'll find a time when B6, WN or others are more expensive. Sadly, legacy carriers costs are way too high. Fuel is way too high. DL goes with full planes as does B6.........................it has nothing to do with what is offered. People will swear by B6 others will swear by DL. B6 has a much lower cost structure.......lower wages, lower aircraft maintence as their aircraft are new. That is the bottom line. So say what you will, the truth is until we have less capacity and fair fares, this industry is in turmoil.
So Scoot, you drink your blue Koolaid and Jetblueat JFK look up the history of Peoplexpress, NY Air, PSA to name a few. They were winners too. I'll check back with you in 10 years........let's see where we are at.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: PA110
Posted 2005-01-27 02:24:56 and read 8537 times.

THANK YOU ALB222!!!

What most folks don't stop to consider is that perception generally drives reality. The general public, in perceiving LCC's to always be cheaper, generally rush out to book the LCC first and in doing so sell out their lowest inventories. Then Johnny-come-lately comes along and finds out that "gasp" the Legacy carrier is cheaper than the LCC on a particular given date. That is only because everyone rushed to book the LCC first. I see this all the time out of OAK with WN and B6. Both have the reputation of being the absolute cheapest in the market. The fact is that most legacy carriers match prices with LCC's on directly competing routes. The public's perception of LCC's always being the cheapest drives the initial bookings to the LCC's first. I find that I can book any of the legacy carriers at or below the the cheapest available (not advertised) LCC price, simply because the great unwashed masses have already filled up the lowest LCC buckets.

[Edited 2005-01-27 02:29:49]

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Alb222
Posted 2005-01-27 02:32:54 and read 8512 times.

DL will end JFK-DEN in April.

JFK-LAX will operate 5 Song; 1 767-300; 1 767-300ER and 1 757

JFK-SFO will operate 3 Song; 1 757 and 1 737-800

JFK-SEA will operate 1 Song and 2 737-800

All transcon connecting to/from JFK International traffic will be done with mainline equipment with LAX maintaining Business Elite service.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: ScottB
Posted 2005-01-27 02:43:03 and read 8481 times.

Clearly my attempt at mocking those who do drink the blue Kool-Aid failed.

I don't think we're going to know exactly what Delta's doing with the routes from JFK to LAX, SFO, and SEA until all the new schedules get loaded; after all, the announced plan is not for one Song 757 to SEA, but three.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-01-27 03:06:51 and read 8435 times.

I can name numberous routes Delta flew long before Jetblue was in the markets....yet Song is the copy cat?....LOL.

NYC-FLL/PBI/TPA/MCO/SYR/ROC/BTV/LAX/SFO/DEN/SLC/SEA/NAS

BOS-LAS/TPA/MCO/RSW/FLL/PBI


What jokers we have on these boards!...lol

Yes Delta is the copy cat..LOL

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Jetbluefan1
Posted 2005-01-27 03:57:47 and read 8336 times.

I can name numberous routes Delta flew long before Jetblue was in the markets....yet Song is the copy cat?....LOL.

NYC-FLL/PBI/TPA/MCO/SYR/ROC/BTV/LAX/SFO/DEN/SLC/SEA/NAS


Um...wasn't JFK-SEA just added (I think for the second time...) this past May? And isn't JFK-DEN, which was also just added this May, being dropped?

And where are SYR, ROC, BTV-NYC (LGA) today?

The poster was saying that Song is a copycat. He was right. PTV's, leather seats, similar route networks...the list goes on.

JetBluefan1



Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-01-27 04:05:04 and read 8308 times.

No JB

DL has been flying JFK-SEA for over a decade. Same with DEN with a few gaps. The fact of the matter is JB has moved into DL markets. DL is protecting market share.
As for leather seats? Southwest. Quick turn times? Southwest. Few aircraft types? Southwest. Low pay? Southwest(at first)

The fact of the matter is all features and benefits are out in the industry for all to copy. A ever evolving circle of life. Get over yourself.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: AA787
Posted 2005-01-27 04:12:27 and read 8280 times.

I bet UA and AA must be happy about Song on the transcons because now they may be able to get more higher paying premium passengers who won't fly for business on Song.

AA787

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-01-27 04:19:27 and read 8260 times.

AA had the only real business travelers left. UA a distant 2nd. The fact of the matter is the coach product of Song is better. So it's losing situation for AA/UA which had not matched JB prices to LGB. Song will match JB. So this brings the lower fares to LAX. AA is still operating the same capacity before JB came along and before the bottom dropped out of JFK-LAX yields. I'd look for AA to replace some widebodies with narrowbody aircraft.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-01-27 04:29:14 and read 8244 times.

Alb222,
Got time on your hands there. Trying to prove delta is the best. Well if you check every day tell me why you still claim delta is so much better than B6 and B6's fares are so high when most of the time they are not. Well after your little "check you facts" thing when you were wrong, what did you get all mad and be like im going to check every day of fares. Wow somebody needs to get out a little more. DL's fares are not lower overall than B6's fares. Tell me why I will find 85 O/W on a B6 flight alot of the times but alot of the times I will find alot of 144's on DL. Yes B6 does sometimes have the 144 fares, but they do go lower were you are claiming that since B6 goes up to there price they match. They go up to!! They go lower to. I do not remember saying that DL copys B6 neither did anyone else. SONG copied B6. The IFE the seats the fares the routes, yes that is copying. And you wonder were ROC, BUF, SYR, BTV to LGA are today. No where because DL's fares weren't as low. DL fares do go low but not all the time and B6 fares go high but not all the time, so if DL's lowest fare is one of B6's highest fare, you have to think. So now you don't have to go lie and say I've searched everyday and I think DL is still lower, NO. That is were you go WAY WRONG. You act like DL is now some out of the normal LCC that everyone wants to be like. Well when another carrier comes along and has a good idea then DL will make a twin of it and then make it their own and then they will get people out there saying oh well it is DL's so yea. And someone said I will spend the extra to get miles...well I hope you like spending because if you got for DL all the time, that isn't great money wise. And everyone says oh well Song is with DL and I have miles so I will got he little extra, LITTLE??? That makes me laugh so much to see people think DL is on the same page because they lowered their fares! Why does DL need to lower fares so much if they already have an LCC. Then probably some of those routes that were DL's but failed weren't paying off. So once again check you facts over there.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Alb222
Posted 2005-01-27 05:25:34 and read 8161 times.

You know Mr. Jetblue fan, for the record I have not flown Song or B6. You do not understand, or probably care to understand what I said. Fares are based on both competition and how much money do we need to make a flight profitsable. B6 pay for a 320 Captain after 10 years service 126 per hour. 1st year pay is 110. A legacy carrier for a 737NG, in the case of AA or DL the 800 which is comparable to the 320 pays a 10 year Captain +/-200 per hour flown. It is the cost structure that is creating the discrepancy. B6 currently flies 1 type aircraft. The other legacies fly many types. Costs to maintain 1 type are far less than maintaining many types. It all about costs. How much traffic is O and D on B6, how much is connecting? Compare that to DL on similar routes.
Most of what you said is garbage as I never said anything about who started what first. DL is protecting its turf.................did they copy B6, sure, but look at the real world...........business' copy competitive ideas all of the time. DL/AA and the other legacies offer me a lot more choices. I'll take an upgrade anytime. I'll take my miles and do whatever. B6 is not the panecea you make it out to be. By the way, what happened in Atlanta? Did the T.V. not work? And DL never flew LGA to BUF, ROC, SYR...........Business Express did as well as Comair. Burlington the same thing.
We are entitled to our opinions..................do not put stuff in your statement that I never said but you think I said. Boy, thank goodness I have been there and done that. When you have flown 4,123,000 commercial miles and who knows how many military miles, come back and talk to me!!

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Laca773
Posted 2005-01-27 05:35:14 and read 8128 times.

Thanks for the information. I had started a thread on Sunday about this as I remember there had been talk abou this sometime ago. I do think that 7 roundtrips a day is a bit much considering all the other service out there at this point and time.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-01-27 05:41:45 and read 8102 times.

Yes I was adding up the capacity. Song will actually have more coach seats in the market than American. I count 121 seats x 11 flights vs 7 flights x 199 seats.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2005-01-27 07:03:24 and read 8011 times.

Padcrasher:

I doubt that AA will pull the 767s off JFK-LAX. A friend who is a pilot with AA flies ORD-LAX and JFK-LAX a lot. Those are among the few routes where the premium classes are always full.

Whereas most routes have full cabins in front because most of the passengers upgraded, the JFK-LAX route is an exception. The entertainment industry buys a lot of business and first-class tickets.

So, AA isn't about to cut out 18 premium-cabin seats on each flight by switching from 767-200s to 757s. Yes, JFK-LAX would be more profitable if B6 didn't fly JFK-LGB, but AA still does well on this route.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: AlitaliaMD11
Posted 2005-01-27 09:53:53 and read 7925 times.

Song already flies to SJU from JFK.


I am so happy about the JFK-LAX! I usually fly B6 to LGB since I am a strong B6 supporter, but I really enjoy flying into LAX.

To go to LAX from the state of New York I need to try out:

United P.S
Song
Southwest
Spirit
American

And the good thing about SONG is that its inexpensive like B6.

The 45 minute drive from Santa Monica to Long Beach is really a big drag.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-01-27 16:12:28 and read 7806 times.

Alb222 asks:By the way, what happened in Atlanta?

Good question - I was going to ask that myself. Delta lost $2.2B last quarter.. I think they are the ones with some explaining to do!

As for JetBlue, I think pulling out of Atlanta was a good call.. but it wasn't Delta that sealed the deal. I believe it was AirTran, who I think surprised B6 by flying to LA and subsequently taking an order for new Boeings. I only hope that all the former Delta employees in DFW can now find jobs with Atlanta's other airline!

As I said in another thread a few weeks ago, I have never ever seen such a blatent copy in the corporate world as I have with Song and JetBlue. Sure, OK, there are comparisons that can be drawn between JetBlue and Southwest, AirTran and Southwest, JetBlue and Spirit even, but they all come down to the basic low-cost model and are basically different interpretations of it. But with Song, Delta has tried to create a complete facsimile of the JetBlue brand but without the low costs that makes JetBlue successful (as in making money, no matter how modest) while the parent Delta is hemorraging millions. With that said, I think Song is a much better airline from a customer service point of view than the mainline Delta coach product and perhaps in the long-run it is in Delta's best interests to expand the Song product PROVIDED THEY CAN KEEP COSTS DOWN. Besides the brand, Song basically matches JetBlue's route map city for city, save for IAD and Upstate New York. In fact, didn't Song announce new flights to Nassau the very same day that JetBlue did? Wow - now JetBlue knows how Legacy Airlines must have felt at Love Field!

I will also admit when I am wrong. I wrongly thought that Song was going to go away. I still believe that it cannot make money under the current structure no matter which routes are flown - costs need to be brought down for that to happen. One of the fundamental flaws with the Song brand, in my opinion, is that it negates a huge benefit for many who regularly fly Delta: first & biz class customers and upgrade perks. While the number of passengers paying for first and biz class is shrinking, at least domestically, this is one area Delta has no LCC competition. Obviously Delta must have considered this and thought the pros outweighed the cons; I would have been less surprised if Song basically became the coach product on mainline flights. This would have maintained some first and business class seats on these flights.

Finally, the blue kool-aid cliche is becoming increasingly old and lame. I happen to like B6 and think they are a well-run airline, a breath of fresh air in an industry that really needed it. I am not disillusioned by them - they are not perfect. No airline is. But if liking JetBlue means drinking the blue stuff, then so be it. That must mean that liking Song is drinking the nasty green generic-brand stuff on the shelf next to it.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2005-01-27 17:01:17 and read 7743 times.

I'm not sure if Song flying between JFK and LAX/SFO is a good idea.

These two routes are primarily aimed at business travellers, hence the reason why AA is still flying the 767-200 on these routes and UA has upgraded a number of their 757-200's to their very roomy p.s. configuration lately. This is especially true for the entertainment industry, where LAX is much closer to various TV/movie production studios and entertainment industry offices than LGB, where B6 operates out of.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-01-27 17:03:02 and read 7736 times.

Song already flies to SJU from JFK.

With a stop in Orlando. JFK-SJU is currently mainline Delta, but will become Song this May.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Alb222
Posted 2005-01-27 18:36:12 and read 7667 times.

My whole point that everybody can copy everybody else, but if the costs are not there, you can have 2000 B6 clones who won't make money. DL I feel made an error in creating Song. What was needed was a better mainline product.....not a copy of something else especially when that copy costs a heck of a lot more to operate. B6 announced a profit, higher than expected. DL announced a losss higher than expected. All airlines get you from a to b................whether they offer a good product is a personal decision..............some may like carrier A others not. The only difference is how much it costs each airline to get from a to b. B6, WN have the costs down. Their work model is different....their payscale is different. If 9/11 had not happened, I think we probably would not have seen such a drastic shakeup in the industry.
B6 needs to maintain its niche..............going to Atlanta was a mistake. That has been WN's success................stay out of the huge hubs...........I do hope that all the airlines survive, but thet won't............we are heading back to the days when 1 airline served int'l and one airline served domestic routes. I don't know how many of you remenber the days of regulation when routes and fares were regulated..........maybe those were better days. I just regret seeing so many lose their jobs........perhaps consolidation, but that is naother story.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2005-01-27 19:43:46 and read 7613 times.

Legacy carriers will never be able to match the LCC's.

Actually, they could. Their problem is they won't; at least that is what the legacies have to this point indicated by their actions and inactions. The largest difference between the legacies and the LCCs is that the LCCs have embraced what I liken to the unlikely "formula" for success of the all-time winningest college football coach in the U.S., John Gagliardi, St. John's University (Minnesota). The legacies have persisted in an entirely different direction in spite of the obvious brokeness of their business model.

Gagliardi's "formula" for success for winning football games, national championships (NCAA Division III), and a graduation rate of 100% of all players who have played during his 40 plus years at St. John's is known as "No" coaching. One of many examples: "no live tackling or blocking in practices; why risk the injuries when it doesn't count?"

Likewise, the LCCs keep their costs low while the legacies cannot (actually will not) largely because of at least 10 "Nos." Not all LCCs observe all 10, but all LCCs observe many or most of these. Here is my unofficial list based on my airline experience in which I observe first hand the obvious high costs incurred by the legacies' persistence in saying "yes" instead of "no" to all 10. In the interest of brevity I will not explain, but am fully capable of giving a tenable reason for each.

1) No pre-assigned seating
2) No bloated, convoluted frequent flyer program with multiple partners and reciprocity.
3) No elite program
4) No premium cabin
5) No codeshares and alliances with other airlines
6) No flights able to be booked more than 5 months before departure
7) No bookings on Expedia, Travelocity, Orbitz, Cheap Tickets, et al
8) No chasing after market share and load factors at any cost (absurd loss leader fares and double/triple ff miles, etc)
9) No attempts to be all things to all people
10) No making labor the scapegoat for the consequences of poor management decisions in regard to the above

So feel free to flame away if you must; know, however, that reality is on my side, regardless of how many and who may wish or think it to be otherwise. But as surely as the all-time winningest coach in U.S. college football was ridiculed for his "No" style of coaching, until the legacies (and, yes, even some of the so-called LCCs) come to grips with the high costs they incur upon themselves by ignoring the 10 "Nos" above, they will do nothing more than to continue in their present determination to re-invent themselves as high-cost, low-wage carriers.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2005-01-27 20:32:08 and read 7559 times.

Richie,

Here we go again. Didn't learn your lesson last time, did ya?


As for JetBlue, I think pulling out of Atlanta was a good call.. but it wasn't Delta that sealed the deal.

Uh, actually, I think it was. Don't think Airtran sealed the deal. You think Neeleman would be scared away by Airtran making the sudden announcement and throwing on a couple of wet-leased A320's? That wouldn't scare anyone, although it was smart for Airtran to make sure they did not get left out of the party. No, I think it was Delta's capability of throwing 13 flights on the routes and triple FF miles. JB thought Delta would be too stunned to react, similar to how they did when JB entered Delta's other market, NY-FL. First of all, JB's ATL presence was less than stellar. But Delta wasn't about to let their other hometown route be challenged. Within 6 months, B6 was running with its tail between its legs. The blue Kool-Aid drinkers praised that JB "decided" to utilize its aircraft in other markets because the ATL-LA market was too flooded with competition? There was no competition before JB entered, and Neeleman couldn't admit that he was beat, plain and simple. So, it was Delta that sealed the deal and won the route back, even if Airtran is nipping at the heels.


only hope that all the former Delta employees in DFW can now find jobs with Atlanta's other airline!

Your attempt to take a cheap shot at those DFW folks is hopeless as well. I am proud to inform the uninformed(you) that the DFW employees need not worry about losing any jobs. Upon the de-hubbing of DFW, most employees were accepted into the DFW Reservations center if they so chose. Needless to say, openings for that particular center have been filling quite rapidly. Any who did not decide to head to Res have the opportunity to transfer to ATL, CVG, or SLC and there have also been enough openings allocated in many other stations in order to give those DFW employees a better opportunity to transfer to where they may like. Keep in mind, in this industry, most resident employees are not native, but implants from elsewhere in the system. This would give those employees a chance to move back home possibly, if they want. To any who did not decide to transfer or head to Res and choose to leave the company, I wish them the best of luck. I believe there was a large request for transfers to SLC from DFW, so it appears that many employees decide to stay with the company.


I have never ever seen such a blatent copy in the corporate world as I have with Song and JetBlue.

I felt the same way about McDonalds and Burger King. But if Jetblue is so much better than Song, then why is anyone worried about Song's performance? And where does Ted fall into play here? Aren't they yet another facsimile of JB? As far as mentioning Delta creating a copy while hemorraging money, Song seems to be able to keep its own head above water, otherwise why would Delta announce an EXPANSION while at the same time hemorraging money, just as they did in Sept? There must be something working out there. I would recommend that you forget trying to understand why Song makes money and accept that it does, just not enough to cover any losses that Delta incurs.


I will also admit when I am wrong. I wrongly thought that Song was going to go away. I still believe that it cannot make money under the current structure no matter which routes are flown...

Yes you were. I will suggest that once again, just put down your calculator and accept it. I know that you constantly want to find a way to prove that Song does not make money and can't, and will still stick to your decision that it can't make money, even when it is happening before your very eyes. If thats NOT drinking the kool-aid, I don't know what is.


But if liking JetBlue means drinking the blue stuff, then so be it. That must mean that liking Song is drinking the nasty green generic-brand stuff on the shelf next to it.

My girlfriend used to feel the same way when buying bottled water at the store until one day I snuck up behind her and whispered into her ear, "Spssst, it's just friggin water. They all will do the same thing."  Big thumbs up

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-01-27 21:07:30 and read 7523 times.

Song basically matches JetBlue's route map city for city

Basically? What exactly does basically mean? Only at JFK does Song serve similar markets. Jetblue mirrored Song into the markets of LGA and BOS and have yet to test the waters of EWR, BDL in the Northeast. B6 only does a single Florida-West coast route. Both airlines specialize in High-density, low-yield markets. There aren't many choices for either airline.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Jetbluefan1
Posted 2005-01-27 21:09:11 and read 7507 times.

Ottopylit,

Even though this is a Song thread, I feel that I have to argue this ATL point with a mix for facts and opinions. However, I must first state that I respect your opinion and you also bring up good points.

As for JetBlue, I think pulling out of Atlanta was a good call.. but it wasn't Delta that sealed the deal.

Uh, actually, I think it was. Don't think Airtran sealed the deal. You think Neeleman would be scared away by Airtran making the sudden announcement and throwing on a couple of wet-leased A320's? That wouldn't scare anyone, although it was smart for Airtran to make sure they did not get left out of the party.

It was, indeed, AirTran who "sealed the deal." Had AirTran not entered those markets, 1.) there would have been less capacity; and 2.) there would have been less yield pressure. As long as there was another airline on the route with similar costs, JetBlue didn't want to be on the route. That makes perfect sense. It also makes perfect sense to look to compete with an airline with double the costs on a route where it has a complete monopoly.

No, I think it was Delta's capability of throwing 13 flights on the routes and triple FF miles.

Did you really think that JetBlue thought that DL wouldn't respond? JetBlue is possibly one of the most down-to-earth airlines in the U.S (just listen to their press calls). As a result, DL matched the fares dollar for dollar - duh - and lost millions of dollars.

JB thought Delta would be too stunned to react, similar to how they did when JB entered Delta's other market, NY-FL.

No they didn't. JetBlue knew times were changing, and thought, "Hey, let's give ATL a chance because DL has a complete monopoly on one of the biggest routes in the U.S and they need some relief from those overpriced fares."

JetBlue didn't see BOS tooting its horn for another airline at the time (and don't even try bringing up the argument that BOS didn't want them. Massport was the one that gave them 2 gates.)

First of all, JB's ATL presence was less than stellar.

Three transcon flights at start is stellar for JetBlue. It's the most they've ever started with on a transcon route.

But Delta wasn't about to let their other hometown route be challenged. Within 6 months, B6 was running with its tail between its legs.

Of course DL wasn't going to have their hometown route challenged. That's why they gave away the boat to maintain it...

However, credit needs to be given to B6 for attempting to make ATL work out. They reduced the flights on LGB-ATL to 1x and started 1x OAK-ATL. They actually cut down capacity at first before completely abandoning the route, unlike DL on JFK-SAN and JFK-DEN. Is it fair to say that DL is now running from B6 b/c they are stopping those two routes? Judging by the fact that B6 was "running with its tail between its legs" too, then I guess it is...

The blue Kool-Aid drinkers praised that JB "decided" to utilize its aircraft in other markets because the ATL-LA market was too flooded with competition?

Yes, they decided to move their extremely limited amount of planes to other, more profitable routes, such as LGB/OAK-BOS. Also, the ATL-LA/SF route was then starting to become flooded with competition. You said it yourself. 13 flights on DL? New service from FL? B6 didn't want to be in this war.

JetBlue pulled the plug on ATL because of the broader scheme of things - FL and DL were about to engage in a bigger war. B6 was the airline that triggered FL to add transcon service so quickly. Why else would they have rushed to get Ryan to fly those flights? Also, it's thanks to B6 that the fares are now so low on this route. If it weren't for JetBlue, then who knows when FL would have finally launched those routes.

According to Neeleman, JetBlue was making money in ATL. However, JetBlue goes where they can make the most money. They could have sustained those flights to just make a point. But JetBlue is the most practical airline that you'll find - if a flight isn't performing up to par with the rest of the network, you pull it. Plain and simple.

JetBlue's about money, not market share.

JetBluefan1

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-01-27 21:25:27 and read 7482 times.

Oh boy, here's my buddy OP going at it again! Well, I respect the fact that you have your own opinion and that is OK. I often disagree with many of friends and that is OK too.

To your rebuttals-

JetBlue's Atlanta retreat: Obviously Delta's adding a bunch of flights to the ATL-LAX market had an impact to JetBlue, no question. But I think that was also expected, at least to some degree. It doesn't take a genius to see that Delta is willing to bite off its nose to spite its face. Throw AirTran into the mix, now you have a market that has too much capacity and JetBlue could not offer the connection possibilities offered by either AirTran or Delta. And, as much a factor as anything else, is the LGB slot issue. Why should JetBlue waste much-coveted slots on ATL when they can throw more flights to JFK (at a higher degree of profit). This is not fiction, Otto. I'm sure all three factors were at play when B6 made the decision to pull out from ATL. If it makes your ego feel better to think "Delta taught them a lesson", go for it.

DFW jobs. Fine - I made an unnecessary cheap shot and I don't mean to degrade those people who lose out because of Delta's leaving DFW. But how many of those employees accepted into the DFW Reservations center are really going to be thrilled about it? I hope all of the relocations work out, seriously. As as side note, the last time I called Delta's reservations, I spoke to a guy in India. He had never heard of Tallahassee and I had to tell him it was in Florida.

Song copying JetBlue. Come on, Otto. Don't give me the McDonalds/Burger King analogy - that is a bunch of hooey. You cannot draw meaningful comparisions between the airline industry and fast food... you are better than that! I don't need to re-state the obvious but Song is simply a clone of JetBlue. I think they do a very respectable job of cloning B6 too, but the last time I checked Ted did not copy JetBlue's route map city for city. I can't wait to see where JetBlue and Song are going to fly to next!
As for performance, you tell me then smarty-pants. B6 = profit. Song = part of $2.2B loss. Personally, I think Song contributed more than its fair share but what the hell do I know?? Well whatever, profit or no profit, you had better really hope I am wrong or thousands of people will be out of a job if Delta keeps things going the way they are. Forget the calculator and gain some common sense: how does a low-cost imitator make money when the low-cost ingredient is missing from the final product?

Song (not) making money. I have heard it a million times that they are making money, from you and a few other Delta folks, but where is that proof then? The only ink running out of DAL offices these days is red, to the tune of $5B in 2004! Seriously, doesn't that scare the shit out of you? Forget drinking the blue kool-aid - you must be chomping down on the green horseshit if you think that Song is Delta's saviour.

Spssst, it's just friggin water. By the way, I've learned not to drink airplane water. I just bring my own.







Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: ScottB
Posted 2005-01-27 21:32:02 and read 7472 times.

RichieRich says,

"As I said in another thread a few weeks ago, I have never ever seen such a blatent copy in the corporate world as I have with Song and JetBlue. Sure, OK, there are comparisons that can be drawn between JetBlue and Southwest, AirTran and Southwest, JetBlue and Spirit even, but they all come down to the basic low-cost model and are basically different interpretations of it. But with Song, Delta has tried to create a complete facsimile of the JetBlue brand but without the low costs that makes JetBlue successful (as in making money, no matter how modest) while the parent Delta is hemorraging millions. With that said, I think Song is a much better airline from a customer service point of view than the mainline Delta coach product and perhaps in the long-run it is in Delta's best interests to expand the Song product PROVIDED THEY CAN KEEP COSTS DOWN. Besides the brand, Song basically matches JetBlue's route map city for city, save for IAD and Upstate New York. In fact, didn't Song announce new flights to Nassau the very same day that JetBlue did? Wow - now JetBlue knows how Legacy Airlines must have felt at Love Field!"

What exactly does Song copy from jetBlue? Leather seats? Other airlines have offered that before. TV at every seat? I suppose, but then Song offered a better system with music, pay-per-view movies, and games that jetBlue has proceeded to copy itself. Low-fare service to Florida from JFK? Delta Express had been doing that for years. Decent food for sale on-board? Nope, jetBlue doesn't offer that. More legroom? At Song first. And as for the route map, Song was flying BOS-Florida nearly a year before jetBlue entered the market, so clearly JBLU is the corporate copycat there. Song was operating from LGA first, operates from BDL (not served by B6), and operates a broader array of flights from Florida to LAX and LAS than jetBlue. I will agree on one thing -- that what Delta is learning from Song should be used to improve the mainline Delta experience.

Richie continues, "Finally, the blue kool-aid cliche is becoming increasingly old and lame. I happen to like B6 and think they are a well-run airline, a breath of fresh air in an industry that really needed it. I am not disillusioned by them - they are not perfect. No airline is. But if liking JetBlue means drinking the blue stuff, then so be it. That must mean that liking Song is drinking the nasty green generic-brand stuff on the shelf next to it."

The Blue Kool-Aid metaphor continues to be apt as long as you have folks who are blinded by groupthink and cult worship. How exactly is JBLU a "breath of fresh air" in the industry beyond TV sets? Southwest had been offering low-fare service delivered by friendly people on new planes for thirty years! Is it the marketing? PeoplExpress was trendy back in the mid-80's and they packed in the passengers from a dump of a terminal at EWR. Even jetBlue will cease to be trendy in time.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-01-27 21:40:36 and read 7427 times.

Alb222,
what does saying "When you have flown 4,123,000 commercial miles and who knows how many military miles, come back and talk to me!!" have to do with B6 and Song. You haven't even flown them so you can't be as educated as the true experience of them. I don't care if you've flown alot, it wasn't in B6 or Song soo...pointless.

Well even if DL lost so much Song "can" be making money, they might have really lost more money but Song put money into that soo...It Probably isn't alot if that is what shape the airline is in(DL).

ATL...Well it wasn't the best move but it did shock DL a little. Too much competition.

Tango-Bravo,
Your list is true and right in most cases. If you look WN did follow all of them (in a away) except for:
5) No codeshares and alliances with other airlines

jetBlueAtJFK

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-01-27 22:12:29 and read 7268 times.

What exactly does Song copy from jetBlue?
Are you kidding me? Clearly you are not seeing the bigger picture. I am talking about THE BRAND and there is no doubt where Delta was going with it.

JetBlue has been marketed in the New York area as a hip, friendly alternative to the established airlines for as long as they have been around. In case you didn't realize, people hate being 'taken for a ride' in the financial sense and this is exactly what the bloated legacy carriers had been doing for years. JetBlue comes in, fresh indeed, and offers simple, basic and comfortable ammenities at low, sensible prices. Yes, it is modeled after a successful Southwest plan but with key differences: IFE (B6 is the pioneer of live satellite tv) and assigned seating. The NYC crowd wouldn't want to be bustled into a plane WN-style. But most of all, it is customer service that has made JetBlue successful - the power of word of mouth is astonishing! JetBlue's success has been well-documented, you don't need me to remind you of that. People know a good deal and people know when they are being treated well.

Enter Song. Clearly Delta was not happy with a new, edgy upstart making roads into their territory. So what did they do? They created a JetBlue, except they made it green so as not to appear quite the same! No need to go through the government hoopla of opening a new airline, they can just repaint a bunch of tired mainline 757s! Then, just to confuse people, flights can be booked through Delta's website too (I'd love to know how many people bought 'Delta' tickets and thought they were on the wrong airline when a Song plane showed up!) Seeing you brought up IFE, let's recall how Song advertised satellite tv on their planes from Day 1 but it wasn't until almost 18 months later that the whole fleet finally had it. With that said, I think Song's IFE product is actually quite decent. Except for the picture quality of the tv, I think it might be better than JetBlue!

Delta has tried, and somewhat succeeded in my opinion, to market Song after JetBlue. Ads are humorous with silly, cheezy taglines, just like JetBlue. Hell, a lot of people I talk to think that Song IS JetBlue! That must make the Delta folks REALLY happy!

But the truth is that Song is not JetBlue and is merely a copycat in every sense of the word. Sure there are routes Song has that JetBlue doesn't, and vice verse, but the core routes are identical. Was NAS a coincidence then?

And this brings me to the only thing I don't think Song successfully copied: customer service. Each of my last four or five Delta/Song experiences has had one negative event that turned me off. Sometimes that is all it takes. For example, I wanted to change my ticket to fly from LGA instead of JFK on Delta. I happened to be in JFK, so I went to DL's terminal. Basically, I was rudely told I could not speak to anyone at the ticket counter because I did not have a ticket for that day. Utterly ridiculous! I know - this is just one example but I have others! I have flown JetBlue more than any other airline in the past few years and I can only say I have one or two things that didn't go well. Most people at B6 are very friendly and willing to go out of their way for you if asked; at Delta, my perception has been that I am bothering them and should go away. Perhaps Delta-lovers out there will scoff me as smoking the blue stuff or something, but take heed that I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO FEELS THIS WAY!! I know lots of people in my business who cringe at the word 'Delta' yet seem to have more positive feelings toward JetBlue.

So just by the fact that ScottB thinks leather seats and tv make Song as good as JetBlue just goes to show how little he gets it.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: SongStar
Posted 2005-01-28 00:58:14 and read 6776 times.

NAS.....hmmmm let's see...jetBlue would be the copycat here ....Song was to announced service from jfk-nas at 5am that morning...jetBlue caught wind of it in the overnite hours and trumped Song announcing service without having the rights to service NAS...

Everyone here needs to just lighten up a little....this is turning into a pissing contest and it isn't....there is room for multiple low-fare carriers in NYC...everyone will have their favorites...period...

not everyone likes burger king...not everyone likes mcdonald's...it's all about choices folks...choose the one you like....and

fly your way

flysong.com

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Alb222
Posted 2005-01-28 02:50:00 and read 6704 times.

First Song Star is correct. We will never agree and that is okay, for thank goodness we have that choice.

And Jetbluefan, in my 4+ million miles of flying, I have seen them come and go...........trendy ones like PeoplExpress...........old ones like PanAm...........new ones like National 2 or Western Pacific. Everybody jumps on the bandwagon of the new guy on the block because it is the cool thing to do.................let's see where we are at in 5 years. PeoplExpress in 1983 was the hottest thimg out there...in 1985 there were a pile of crap. Overexpansion did them in along with the purchase of the old Frontier Airlines. I think B6 with its E190's is tempting fate with overexpansion in a crowded market. Now that is my damn opinion to which I am entitled!! The problem is everybody wants more......I hope B6 does not go away from their niche for that could be the harbinger of things to come.
I do not need to have utilized JetBlue or Song to react to what is happening. Spend 35 years in the industry and look at the whole picture not just one small piece. Anyhow, hopefully all will succeed, layoffs will stop and we just get on with it.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Deltadude8
Posted 2005-01-28 03:54:52 and read 6665 times.

Well if were talking about copy cats...then Let's say Jet Blue is a copy cat of every airline ever created...cause its an airline...YAHOOO...

Rich..I don't ever wanna hear you say Song is not making money because time and time again...you have no proof either...

I have shown you proof that MY GOOD OLE SONG is making money...I gave you numbers but you were suddenly blind and didn't respond to those numbers...you are ignorant- plain and simple. Go grab a picture of a Jet Blue plane take it in the bathroom for 5 min. and relieve yourself and GET OFF THE "SONG ISN'T MAKING MONEY" TRAIN...THE STOP IS HERE...NOW GET THE HELL OFF!

(if any "crew" or other "member" thinks I might be being a little harsh...do a search of previous posts- find the ones in the archives where rich calls me and other "members" on lying, and especially find the part where he said like over a year and a half- a year ago that "Song will close it's doors in 3 months") Otto, others, and I have been posting with Rich for a long time about Song and DL this post is long due. PERIOD.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: ScottB
Posted 2005-01-28 04:55:13 and read 6614 times.

RichieRich-

No, I do see the big picture, and you're missing out on a lot of it. Song's marketing isn't designed to be edgy -- it's designed to appeal to women. Pastels, soft curves, pictures of kids and families, etc. -- all geared to be attractive to women. The ads I've seen

Delta Express and Metrojet offered assigned seating; that's not innovation on jetBlue's part. And again, good customer service has long been a hallmark of Southwest's product; there's a reason they have the lowest number of complaints reported to DOT year in and year out. Again, all that is apparent as "innovation" from jetBlue is TV and marketing aimed at New Yorkers.

I don't think Delta cared that jetBlue was a "new, edgy upstart" at all; rather, they recognized that the formerly profitable Delta Express product needed to be revamped or just plain replaced in order to maintain a viable presence in the markets it served. And just as jetBlue copied Southwest in many aspects and made its own tweaks, Song copied jetBlue and made its own tweaks as well. While I'm not a big fan of the name or the pastels, the product itself is pretty good.

I haven't had any bad customer service experiences on Song to be honest but I'm not a particularly needy passenger unlike most New Yorkers.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2005-01-28 05:01:04 and read 6608 times.

Jetbluefan,

Thank you. You have just stated what I have been saying all along that all JB cheerleaders have and will continue to say about JB leaving ATL, despite how the logic lies more in tune with my representation than yours. You have just offered proof, so thank you.

Just a few things:

1. You think FL sealed the deal with JB in ATL? Not likely. FL started with what, 2 flights to LA, one morning and one night? Compared to DL already operating 10 daily flts there, JB had more to fear from DL. FL and JB's competition was not enough to hurt each other too bad. But come on, did anyone at JB really think that FL was going to stand by and let JB take their own customers as well? FL has been trying to find a way to get into western markets since at least 1999. I can tell you how. It wasn't until DL got into the fray and offered 10 times the selection that JB did when JB backed down.

2. JB's entrance into ATL was less than stellar. 3 flights to 2 markets, and if memory serves me correctly, they were all within a few hours of each other in order to return on the same day. Not a very capable idea. They would have needed to offer much more in order to be remotely competitive.

3. You wanna give JB credit for at least opening and subsequently immediately closing ATL? Ok, here goes, "Rah, rah, rah." Ok, now that I have that out of my system, lets see if JB cares to try and move into ATL again.

4. But JetBlue is the most practical airline that you'll find - if a flight isn't performing up to par with the rest of the network, you pull it. Plain and simple.

Well, I'll be darned. Where would the industry be if Jetblue hadn't figured that out. For the past 80 years, airlines have been operating and trying to figure out how to get around that rock. They never came to the realization that if it doesn't work, don't do it. Gosh, all hail Neeleman for taking that long to catch up with the rest of us.


Richie,

If it makes your ego feel better to think "Delta taught them a lesson", go for it.

Yea, it makes me feel better whenever I decide to fondle myself late at night.  Wink/being sarcastic


how many of those employees accepted into the DFW Reservations center are really going to be thrilled about it?

Well, the only people that I can think of that wouldn't be thrilled would be anyone working on the ramp. Anyone who worked at the airport would get to wear casual clothes now and do the same thing. But then again, I have heard some horror stories coming from Res. If you have ever heard stories about slavery in the South back in the 18th century, those are the kind of stories that I have heard come from Res.


...last time I called Delta's reservations, I spoke to a guy in India. He had never heard of Tallahassee...

I wondered why we had such a large spike in reservations to BOM. It seems that is the only city code they really understand. Seriously though, the Res centers aren't supposed to be in India, thats the baggage service call centers. Most of the out of state res centers are located in the Philipines, I think. I wouldn't worry, we have gotten so many complaints from India that they are about to get their contract pulled because no one can understand and they can't do their job right.


Personally, I think Song contributed more than its fair share but what the hell do I know??

You really want me to answer that?


how does a low-cost imitator make money when the low-cost ingredient is missing from the final product?

See, this is where you don't get it. Where is the low cost ingredient missing? All Song employee's, except pilots, volunteered for Song and are paid less than regular Delta employees in pay and health benefits. The employee cost structure is there, the route structure is, everything fits. Song does everything that Jetblue can do, and even adds more, such as offereing food for sale, complimentary Gameboys for kids that don't like the TV's, etc. So where does it not add up at?


As far as Delta losing money, if I am worried. To be honest, not really. Delta has been in worse predicaments before if anyone knows the history of Delta. Song is not Delta's saviour, given that Delta is still losing. Had it not been for Song though, Delta may have lost a lot more. Just take it as fact, bud.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: N1120a
Posted 2005-01-28 05:03:46 and read 6599 times.

>LCC's have the advantage of being non-union with lower costs.<

Funny, considering how WN is the most heavily unionized airline in the US. Just because B6 is non-union (the employees have voted against unionization several times, even though B6 said they would not fight unions) does not mean that is the way with all LCCs. Besides, labor costs are not they way to be an LCC, ask Herb

>Legacy carriers will never be able to match the LCC's.<

Sure they can, they just need to stop having such high ancilary costs and living only for right now and not planning for the future. For example, if UA had hedged 5 years ago, they would have likely broken even this last quarter. Instead, they lost almost half a billion dollars.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Alb222
Posted 2005-01-28 05:33:10 and read 6577 times.

And where do we hear that WN is the most heavily unionized airine in the U.S.?

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-01-28 09:42:42 and read 6491 times.

we have gotten so many complaints from India that they are about to get their contract pulled because no one can understand and they can't do their job right.

I would have to disagree. The only complaints we get from the BOM call center is the language gap (should say accent gap), but it can't be much different then a true southerner conversing with someone in BOS Res. I find the quality of their work to be above par with our own reservations, especially Delta Direct. I don't like to generalize because there are some phenomenal agents over at DD, but it is hard to get them to understand how time critical every passenger is at an airport. If they spend an hour on the phone trying to get rebooked then they missed 3 flights. Everyone that has a complaint about Res in BOM throws out the language complaint, but in reality when you look at the record it was because the change fee wasn't waived when their cruise got back earlier or something.
I couldn't imagine DL pulling the contract because it has been such a good reliever. Could you imagine our phone lines this past two months without them their to help bail out Res (not so much bail out, but assist)?

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2005-01-28 14:30:30 and read 6461 times.

There is no proof that Song (or Delta Express) is profitable. Expansion doesn't imply profitability. Most carriers are growing and increasing capacity, but as we all know, most of them aren't profitable.

Song is a good product, but it is not geared for business travelers and frequent flyers. Letting Song completely take over the JFK-LAX/SFO routes is an indication that DL simply can not attract the business traveler on this route.

With Song, DL will chase after the leisure traveler. Will this strategy work? Maybe, but I don't know if Song's costs will ever be low enough to be the leisure airline that DL is making it out to be. JetBlue has super-low costs and even they are just squeezing small profits. How can Song squeeze out a profit with higher costs and lower yields than JetBlue?



[Edited 2005-01-28 14:30:57]

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: QuestAir
Posted 2005-01-28 15:13:00 and read 6434 times.

JFK-SFO might be competing soon with Virgin America.

On a separate note, does anyone know why Selvaggio left Song for Virgin America?

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Goingboeing
Posted 2005-01-28 15:26:03 and read 6427 times.

I wonder why, with the announcement of simplifares, Delta hasn't pulled the plug on Song.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Aeroman62
Posted 2005-01-28 15:36:52 and read 6413 times.

And if HP couldn't make money flying SFO/JFK, with their lower costs than DL, then how is anyone going to make money when DL floods the market with these flights, on top of all the other flights offered by UA, CO, DL, AA, B6, HP out of LAX, etc. The summer of 2005, assuming all these carriers are still in business by then, will be very telling.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-01-28 15:59:27 and read 6399 times.

I have a few comments to make on statements made by Alb222 and OttoPyllt:

Had it not been for Song though, Delta may have lost a lot more. Just take it as fact, bud.

Well, one thing even I can agree with you on, Otto, is that I hope you are right! There is clearly a lot at stake right now.. I'm not sure about the "worse predicaments" for Delta though - this one is pretty bad. I would also like to mention how 2004 was WORSE than 2003, so whatever steps the airline is taking to right the ship have not manifested themselves yet. I know there are a lot of outside factors, namely fuel, that are affecting all airlines at the moment but there is still plenty to worry about at DAL (and Song).

On a separate note, does anyone know why Selvaggio left Song for Virgin America? No comment necessary, really. I can only speculate but I think you know my guess!

All Song employee's, except pilots, volunteered for Song and are paid less than regular Delta employees in pay and health benefits. And the point of this statement?! Delta's pilots are the highest paid in the industry, God bless them, so therefore there is no way to consider Song low-cost. I hate to tell you, Otto, but the pilots salary is a significant component of the cost structure - in fact pay and compensation ends up costing a lot more than fuel! By the way, I'm not going to touch your "fondling" comment and can only hope by the  Smile that you were kidding!

Finally, Everybody jumps on the bandwagon of the new guy on the block because it is the cool thing to do.................let's see where we are at in 5 years. Alb222, people have been saying that since JetBlue started. Here it is 5 years later and JetBlue is not going anywhere. Oh, I know there are people who still believe that Airbus gave their planes to JetBlue for free (which I understand to be completely false, per their annual reports) and that mx costs will stagger the company. Well, no doubt mx will go up over time but this is all offset by new planes coming in and the costs are spread out - in other words, mx costs will not sink JetBlue. My sincerest guess is that JetBlue will be here (and thriving) in 5 years. I also believe Delta, United, Continental and Northwest will be here in 5 years - not sure about US Airways. This business is so cyclical that they could all be profitable by that time but I'm no Nostradamus.

I'm done with this topic. There are plenty of Delta lovers out there and plenty of JetBlue/Southwest/AirTran lovers too... to each your own I guess.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-01-28 16:01:29 and read 6397 times.

JB made a -4.1% margin with their 1x tax break on some old expired tickets and fuel hedging,so of course Song didn't make money either. But the purpose of Song is to protect DL markets. Song with the expansion may account for 15% of DL's capacity. Song only needs to be in the ball park of JB's CASM.
Four things will make this happen. 1) The paycuts for pilots and non-contract effective the first of the year. 2) DL's additional cost cutting programs which will save 1.1 Billion per year on top of the pay cuts. 3) The longer stage length on the new routes will drive CASM lower. 4) JB will continue to see labor and maintenance cost outpace revenue as their operation becomes more mature.

HP left the Transcon markets because they realized with only a few frequencies and an inferior product they really could utilize the equipment better in other markets. Of course these other carriers will lose money until more players drop out or reduce capacity. ATA just left LGA because their strategy of undercutting Transcon fare via IND just wasn't working anymore, the fares are too low. IMO American will drop a few of their 11 flights LAX-JFK.
They still will have the most flights and the only widebody service. Since UA has gone to 5 flights and narrowbodies.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Ord
Posted 2005-01-28 16:05:46 and read 6388 times.

"On a separate note, does anyone know why Selvaggio left Song for Virgin America?"

Selvaggio simply retired and did not go to Virgin America (as far as I know). Fred Reid left Delta for Virgin America. But that was because his close pal Leo Mullin left/was ousted and Reid was passed over for the top job (given to Grinstein).

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2005-01-28 16:29:48 and read 6375 times.

Delta's pilots are the highest paid in the industry, God bless them, so therefore there is no way to consider Song low-cost.

This is no longer true. DL pilots WERE the highest paid, prior to December 1, 2004. They are no longer.

Here's the hourly pay for a 12 year CA (738/A320):

WN $182 (737-700)
NW $180
CO $178
DL $173
AA $156
FL $153 (737-700)
B6 $139
UA $129 (pending ratification/BK judge approval)
US $125

If pilot pay were such a critical component (as you claim), then Southwest must be doomed according to you.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Jetbluefan1
Posted 2005-01-28 17:17:42 and read 6341 times.

4. But JetBlue is the most practical airline that you'll find - if a flight isn't performing up to par with the rest of the network, you pull it. Plain and simple.

Well, I'll be darned. Where would the industry be if Jetblue hadn't figured that out. For the past 80 years, airlines have been operating and trying to figure out how to get around that rock. They never came to the realization that if it doesn't work, don't do it. Gosh, all hail Neeleman for taking that long to catch up with the rest of us.

Um...DL lost millions of dollars by giving away the boat on ATL-LAX. B6 didn't and has not on any route.

Not only has DL done this, but AA is giving away the boat on DFW-LA area.

AA at one time decided to sustain losses on JFK-SoCal so that they could hurt B6 or whatever. However, after a year or so of pain and agony on those routes, they dropped them.

B6 doesn't care about market share. They care about profits. The big airlines have shown time and again that they care more about protecting their market share, hence DL's doubling in capacity on ATL-LAX/SFO.

The pull of ATL was an excellent move on JetBlue's part and shows that B6 can swallow its pride in the interest of making more money.

JetBluefan1

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2005-01-28 17:28:52 and read 6335 times.

DeltaMIA,

Hey, I am just going on what I was told my Rob Maruster, VP ATL Worldport. I don't think so much it was the Res office, but more or less the Baggage Service Center, because they have gotten many complaints that the BSC blind transfers many calls to the Baggage Service Offices, where nothing can be done for them.

QuestAir,

John Selvaggio did not leave Song for Virgin America. Selvaggio started up Song and retired from Song just last month. Joane Smith replaced him and was just named Fortune's Female Executive of the Year, or something like that. You are thinking of Fred Reid, who left Delta last year to head up Virgin America. Why? Because he saw that he would get the boot from Grinstein when he took over Delta.


And the point of this statement?! Delta's pilots are the highest paid in the industry

The point was that the lower pay of the rest of the employees kind of offsets the pilots. And, since you may not have kept up, the pilots just swallowed a 32.5% paycut. I have a pilot as a roommate, so believe me when I say that I know what it means. So if Song made money before, it will certainly make MORE money now.



Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-01-28 18:20:31 and read 6306 times.

So if Song made money before, it will certainly make MORE money now.

That's a big IF, Otto. I will say good luck to your pilot roommate and wish him/her the best.

I actually agree with Padcrasher, by the way, regarding Song being create to protect market share. I think that is much much closer to the truth than as a viable profit-making arm of Delta.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-01-28 20:33:50 and read 6250 times.

I can only speculate but I think you know my guess!

I could give you 100 guesses and I wouldn't think you would land it. I only wish him success in his future endeavors, but he probably fits best in Branson's world and it sounds as though that is what he is going to do.


OttoPylit
because they have gotten many complaints that the BSC blind transfers many calls to the Baggage Service Offices

I actually haven't heard that, but in my dealings with BOM BSC they have been professional and only seeking information on behalf of the passenger. They also stick by DL, IATA, and Contract of Carriage policies which I only wish DL BSO employees would do. After recently spending a day in Customer Care Loss Prevention the problem in Baggage isn't BOM it is lack of training on the front lines.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Deltadude8
Posted 2005-01-28 22:29:44 and read 6185 times.

Hey Rich and others...No one knows whether Song is making money or not so therefore if you post whether they are or are not and do not have proof..THEREFORE YOU ARE POSTING "FACTUALLY WRONG" STATEMENTS/INFORMATION AND YOU POST SHOULD BE DELETED!

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-01-29 20:48:38 and read 6057 times.

The truth is that Song's profit/loss is absorbed in Delta - yes.
However, as I have said a thousand times Deltadud, one can draw inferences based upon (a) known load factor data - see publically available DOT reports (b) pricing data - once can determine approximately how much revenue a flight is generating based upon market competition, load factors, etc and (c) how much it costs to run a 757 with Delta pay scales. If you think I am talking out of my ass, think about it for a second. This is precisely what investment analysts in this market do!

With that said, there is always going to be a small element of 'unknown' based upon the way Song information is reported through its parent. I know my opinion (yes, I said 'opinion' not 'fact') will not change your minds or that of several others in here. Frankly, I don't even care because there is nothing the group of us could do about it one way or the other.

If Song IS working out for Delta ($5B in the red for 2004), then great. I really think it is a competitive product and wished they had it a few years ago when I found myself flying more on Delta than I do now. It is, however, a corporate copycat - anyone who can't see its inherent similarities to a certain JFK competitor are either mentally challenged or on some serious dope. I also know which one came first and how Song seems hell-bent on copying the other airlines' routes! (Let me remind the forgetful: JetBlue announced JFK-NAS flights on the morning of 10/31/04; Song announced JFK-NAS flights just a few hours later. Coincidence? I don't believe in coincidences like that.) I hope the people running the Delta/Song show know what they are in for... they should have gone after JetBlue when it started. Waiting until they are so established was a bad move.

One day, we will all be able to look back on this and see how it unfolds. Maybe Song, Delta and JetBlue will still be going at it. Maybe one, two or all three names will be gone in 10 years - WHO KNOWS?! I just hope, for the sake of all Delta and Song employees in this forum, that expanding Song is the right decision for the company. Perhaps in the long run it is but there is a lot of ground to cover between now and then... Nobody at Delta sees any sort of profits coming in the near future.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2005-01-30 06:31:41 and read 5974 times.

It will be cool to see Song on the west coast at SEA and SFO ... but I wonder why they didn't try to open up some new routes that Delta wasn't already serving? PDX may have been a better choice for Song than SEA, simply because they 1) do not have nonstop service to JFK, and 2) are not served by B6 (which is unknown in PDX by the way). This would have been a great way for Delta to launch a preventative attack and generate some buzz in a market that will eventually see B6 ... Maybe they could even hold B6 off a bit?

As far as 3x daily to SEA, I too am not sure of the need. A freind who took the 10:35am SEA-JFK a couple weeks ago said the loads were so low that each pax got their own row. While I'm happy to to see DL/Song expanding at SEA, I wonder about all the extra capacity. At least I'm happy that I'll still get AS miles on the JFK flights Big grin .

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: SongStar
Posted 2005-01-30 14:58:28 and read 5908 times.

RichieRich...

As I stated in post 40 and I'll state again....jetBlue would be the copycat in the NAS route...please scroll up....and as i also stated...it's all about choices...choose the one you like and..

fly your way

ss

flysong.com

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Carfield
Posted 2005-02-01 01:26:57 and read 5832 times.

Not joining the fight, but when will the official announcement come? The schedule is still not updated at delta.com, so I wonder when will Delta come out with the offical announcement and schedule of the new JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX flights?

Carfield

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: STT757
Posted 2005-02-01 01:39:50 and read 5821 times.

They officialy announced the service expansion on January 26th, here's the press release.

http://www.flysong.com/song_and_you/news_releases/index.jsp

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Carfield
Posted 2005-02-01 03:26:49 and read 5776 times.

Thanks...

I saw the new schedule...

Is there any celebration planning for the inaugural JFK-LAX flight on May 1? Just wonder if this will be another fun inaugural flight to attend?

Carfield

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: NWDC10
Posted 2005-02-01 05:12:20 and read 5741 times.

Welcome to SEA Song! Robert NWDC10

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-02-01 18:43:37 and read 5660 times.

Song was to announced service from jfk-nas at 5am that morning...jetBlue caught wind of it in the overnite hours and trumped Song announcing service without having the rights to service NAS.

Wrongo SongStar!
Song (Delta) did not need any 'rights to service' NAS because they already flew there from ATL, this much is true. JetBlue couldn't apply for the JFK-NAS route without making a public announcement of service intentions - logic says this is why the JetBlue announced NAS when they did.

Back to Song- a copycat decision was made AFTER JetBlue decided to go to NAS. No doubt about it. From Song's point-of-view, there were no government hurdles needed just a redeployment of existing aircraft. Dropping a JFK-ATL run to free up a Song aircraft was a no-brainer. I'm sure NAS had been on a short-list of future Song cities anyway, but to make the announcement THE VERY SAME DAY as JetBlue is a little too much of a coincidence. If the water looks brown, there must be some shit going on and in this case, the Song water is most definitely 'muddy'. [How would the folks at JetBlue have known Delta was planning to go JFK-NAS with Song? Corporate espionage? Grow up!]

Also, perhaps an even bigger reason to undermine your logic is that JetBlue entered into an exclusive agreement with Atlantis-Paradise Island upon flying JFK-NAS. I don't know exactly what the deal entails - perhaps some JetBlue crewmember out there knows more about this - but this was not struck up over night. Delta/Song? Let's just say there is no such agreement.

In the whole realm of things, as I said in Reply# 61, it doesn't really bother me either way. Seems funny to think that JetBlue had a two-year headstart on Song and yet JetBlue copied Delta! Oh well... believe what you want. There is no telling some people no matter how clear the argument.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-02-01 18:57:09 and read 5647 times.

How would the folks at JetBlue have known Delta was planning to go JFK-NAS

I don't really want to get in this debate, but it would have a lot to do with the New York Port Authority and the JFK Airport director.
While Song has followed Jetblue on a few of the routes from JFK this was definitely one of the ones B6 followed Song in. Song actually released to their employees the intentions of serving NAS about a week before the announcement was made. I know I actually let people on this board know the Thursday beforehand that Song was going to service its first International destination (before either airline made a public announcement).
Please don't think that an airline plans service post announcement. Song had spent awhile planning NAS. SDQ was going to be their first International destination however the high airport taxes in SDQ gave Song the feeling that the route wouldn't come across as low fare to the consumers after being it with over $100 in taxes, so DL got SDQ and Song got NAS. Next time Song will be announcing a new destination that it's top competitor does not fly they will not plan an 8am press release. Why else would B6 have to release their announcement 3 hours prior to the start of business?


[Edited 2005-02-01 18:59:45]

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-02-01 19:12:48 and read 5638 times.

Why else would B6 have to release their announcement 3 hours prior to the start of business? Doesn't JetBlue routinely send out announcements hours before the start of business?

And what about the Atlantis Paradise Island deal? Surely that couldn't have been made in the few days immediately before the almost simultaneous NAS announcements!

What about gate space/ office areas? Surely this was done well before JetBlue went official with announcing JFK-NAS service? This implies lots of pre-planning. A keen point to note here is that Delta didn't have any such worries.. all they had to do was sprinkle some Song signs around the Bahamas.

One last telling point - I just went to the trouble of looking it up - JetBlue began JFK-NAS on Nov. 1. Song flights began on Dec. 1, a full month later. Flying to NAS appears to have been a well-coordinated new route for JetBlue (they just announced a second daily service). It doesn't seem very convincing that JetBlue would 'sneak' in JFK-NAS service a solid month before Song considering the Atlantis agreement, government regulartory and procurement of space issues. I'll give Delta and Song credit for being flexible and being able to react quickly, but I think it is pretty clear who copied whom.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-02-01 19:45:10 and read 5618 times.

Doesn't JetBlue routinely send out announcements hours before the start of business?

No, they are pretty consistent with 7am or 8am, except for this announcement. Even today's service announcement went out right at 7am as usual.

JetBlue began JFK-NAS on Nov. 1. Song flights began on Dec. 1, a full month later

Start of service is not a telling point. DL provides themselves with a minimum of 180 days to market/sell a route.

What about gate space/ office areas? Surely this was done well before JetBlue went official with announcing JFK-NAS service?

Unfortunately I have know idea about how B6 goes about its business. But these are things that would typically cause a route startup to ppd/delayed as they can't be secured prior to startup date. With contracts involved in this service (being B6 probably didn't hire their own employees for the entire operation, if any) these would have been secured after the announcement. There have been plenty of routes announced in the past by carriers that never get off the ground because of the inability to secure contracts and space/gates for the new service.

Topic: RE: It's Official: Song To Fly JFK-LAX, SFO, SEA
Username: Richierich
Posted 2005-02-01 20:11:40 and read 5599 times.

No, they are pretty consistent with 7am or 8am, except for this announcement. Even today's service announcement went out right at 7am as usual.

According to Yahoo, the JetBlue NAS service announcement hit the wires at 6:00AM on 8/3/04 and included a schedule of the intended flights. The caveat did exist for JetBlue receiving DOT approval but otherwise this was no different than any other new city announcement. (It is my understanding that legally they had to put in this caveat and couldn't really wait until after approval was given because once the request is made to the DOT, the information is already public!)

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/040803/61773.html

The Song annoucement hit the wires at 10:19AM on 8/3/04 - as I have said, the only work Song would have had to do is redeploy an aircraft or two. All the infrastructure necessary for Song to start flying to NAS was already there.

At the very least, the timing of both announcements was very curious. One can only speculate but I am guessing Delta was eyeing NAS for Song and JetBlue beat them to the punch. In this case, they only beat them by 4 hours and 19 minutes.


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