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Topic: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 01:44:17 and read 21785 times.

Air Canada expands its fleet
By Bernard Simon
Financial Times
Published: January 30 2005 23:16 | Last updated: January 30 2005 23:16

Air Canada plans to order about 50 wide-body aircraft later this year for its expanding international network.


The Montreal-based carrier, which emerged from a court-supervised restructuring last October, is one of the few traditional North American airlines replenishing its fleet. While most US carriers remain in deep financial difficulty, Air Canada is forecasting an operating profit of about C$1.6bn (US$1.28bn) this year.

The Canadian carrier used the restructuring to cut its debt from C$12bn to C$4bn, and to raise C$1.1bn in new equity. With the bulk of its debt and lease obligations denominated in US dollars, Air Canada has also benefited from a sharp rise in the Canadian dollar.

Robert Milton, chief executive, said the airline was likely to order either the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner or the Airbus A-350, each with a capacity of about 250 passengers. The new aircraft will replace an ageing fleet of wide-body Boeing 767s.

The 7E7 is due to enter service in 2008. Airbus's shareholders gave the go-ahead for the A-350 last month, with a target introduction date of 2010.

Air Canada is already bumping into capacity constraints as it expands its international services, especially to Asia and Latin America.

It has recently brought two mothballed 767s back into service and is leasing several used 767s and long-range Airbus A-340s.

The carrier will also start taking delivery later this year of 105 Embraer and Bombardier regional jets to improve flexibility



[Edited 2005-01-31 01:51:09]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: CB777
Posted 2005-01-31 01:47:34 and read 21632 times.

I hope Boeing really pursues this order

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2005-01-31 01:52:24 and read 21590 times.

Ditto, I got to go with the 787 this time, as its kinda like the 757 vs. A321, the 757 is a much better product, and same goes for 787 vs A350 even though the A350 is more of a 777 competitor.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Yhz78
Posted 2005-01-31 01:54:57 and read 21568 times.

I'd love to see AC go Boeing on this deal as well but with the 767's being retired, that means that all widebodies left are either A330/340 aircraft. It only makes sense from a logical point of view to go with Airbus and keep MX costs, labor and training costs down. Then again, when do airlines ever go and do the logical thing.  Smile

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 01:55:07 and read 21565 times.

I want to see the 787 win this order. I like Airbus products, but the Dreamliner is so revolutionary. C'mon Boeing, this is your chance!

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: SNATH
Posted 2005-01-31 01:56:00 and read 21558 times.

This is Milton's chance to convince us that he really doesn't want AC to be an all-Airbus carrier (as he apparently claimed sometime ago...).

If Boeing wins this campaign then, in my opinion, it will really show the true potential of the B787 compared to the A350. Given all the 'buses that AC has, it will be quite a U-turn for them to buy 50 planes from Boeing. I hope it happens. I'm an Aeroplan Elite (for 5 years now...) and I hope I get to fly on an AC 787 one day. But I'm sure Airbus will fight hard for this campaign too.

Tony

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Caribb
Posted 2005-01-31 01:57:25 and read 21537 times.

Me too, I'm aching for a 787 order! Come on Air Canada we need some more Boeings in the fleet.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 02:01:07 and read 21519 times.

I'd love to see AC go Boeing on this deal as well but with the 767's being retired, that means that all widebodies left are either A330/340 aircraft. It only makes sense from a logical point of view to go with Airbus and keep MX costs, labor and training costs down. Then again, when do airlines ever go and do the logical thing.

After a fleet reaches about 35 aircraft, commonality means little in terms of cost reductions. It would not make sense for AC to order say 15 787. But with AC ordering at least 50... and I suspect they will order more... commonality will mean little.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Yhz78
Posted 2005-01-31 02:07:00 and read 21476 times.

That's true AC7E7. At least with Mulroney gone Boeing will have a chance this time.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: CO737800
Posted 2005-01-31 02:12:55 and read 21445 times.

I would love to see some AC 787's. If they order the 787 I will fly Air Canada again.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Flybyguy
Posted 2005-01-31 02:23:55 and read 21365 times.

AC has better ties with Europe than the States (HRM Elizabeth II is head of state, French is widely spoken as an official language etc.). I suspect that this publicized decision for either the A350 or 787 is a ploy by AC to get juicy deals.

The US chastising the Canadians over withdrawing from the Iraqi war does little to win our Northward brethren for Boeing.

[Edited 2005-01-31 02:25:22]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 02:29:44 and read 21328 times.

Flybyguy:

"Better ties?" Guess that whole "number one trading partner" thing is a work of fiction, huh?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 02:31:35 and read 21312 times.

AC has better ties with Europe than the States (HRM Elizabeth II is head of state, French is widely spoken as an official language etc.). I suspect that this publicized decision for either the A350 or 787 is a ploy by AC to get juicy deals.

The US chastising the Canadians over withdrawing from the Iraqi war does little to win our Northward brethren for Boeing.


Trust me, the Queen has ZERO influence here. As well, Canada never withdrew from the Iraq war because we never participated. As for the ploy to get juicy deals, well of course! AC may really want, for example the 787, but will play the two manufactuers against each other to get the better deal.

AC may very well go for the A350, but not for the reasons you suggest.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-01-31 02:43:40 and read 21244 times.

Canada is a spread out country with a large immigrant population from all over the world. I would think smaller long range jets like the 787 could fit nicely into the AC fleet and help cater to travel plans of Canadians.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: KC135TopBoom
Posted 2005-01-31 02:48:10 and read 21222 times.

Airbus hasn't committed the A-350 to anything but paper, yet. The B-787 is going to fly in a few years, Boeing is committed to it and has , what? about 186 orders for the Dreamliner?

AC has time to wait on Airbus to see if they commit to the A-350. I suspect they are leaning towards the A-350 with hopes of being a kick-off customer and then gets some say in the design.

If Airbus doesn't decide to build the A-350, then AC can still go with the B-787 and hasn't lost any time in getting the production line numbers they need.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: PPVRA
Posted 2005-01-31 02:55:38 and read 21183 times.

Air Canada is already bumping into capacity constraints as it expands its international services, especially to Asia and Latin America.

Though I would love to see AC with 787s, I think A350s are a bit more likely in this case. Mainly due to the greater capacity needed. I mean, Asia isn't a low yield market and ACs loads to GRU, AFAIK, have been up fairly high. Maybe if they fly to GIG... but who knows.

BTW, how are ACs loads to EZE and SCL?

Fingers crossed for the 787!

Cheers,

PPVRA

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2005-01-31 03:02:20 and read 21137 times.

Ditto, I got to go with the 787 this time, as its kinda like the 757 vs. A321, the 757 is a much better product,

I have to say... that's not the strongest argument in favor of the 787 that I've heard...

I don't know Air Canada's long-term fleet plans so I don't really care to speculate.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Yhz78
Posted 2005-01-31 03:23:49 and read 21025 times.

>>AC has better ties with Europe than the States (HRM Elizabeth II is head of state, French is widely spoken as an official language etc.). I suspect that this publicized decision for either the A350 or 787 is a ploy by AC to get juicy deals.

The US chastising the Canadians over withdrawing from the Iraqi war does little to win our Northward brethren for Boeing.<<

Not to mention that french is barely spoken in a large majority of the country. Yes, it is an official language, but outside of Quebec, New Brunswick and some small pockets in Nova Scotia you'd be hard pressed to hear it at all. You ask any average Canadian and their knowledge of the U.S. vastly outweighs what they could dream to know of Europe. As far as participation in Iraq.....well, we just won't get into that right now.  Smile

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 03:50:44 and read 20913 times.

Yhz78:

And even in parts of Quebec (mainly Montreal) it's possible to get by without speaking French. Certainly Montreal culturally has more in common with Burlington, Vermont than Paris, France.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AA737-823
Posted 2005-01-31 04:33:17 and read 20771 times.

Well, I'd love to see 787s in the new livery, but I really expect Airbus to win this one.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Xkorpyoh
Posted 2005-01-31 04:44:45 and read 20707 times.

because they are replacing the 767 seems to me they will go with the 787. It is better technology for the long term. Why pick 2nd best? just because they have other Airbus planes?. As already mentioned, commonality is not an issue for such a great number of planes.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-01-31 04:50:28 and read 20674 times.

The Financial Times only got the story half right. The deal will include two aircraft types, not one. With AC having a hard time finding good lift NOW, it's the front end aircraft that is driving the negotiations. I have it on impeccable authority that AC considers both the 787 and the 350 to be suitable aircraft for the backend deal replacing 763s. It's the front end aircraft and the willingness of the winning manufacturer to meet AC on price and on other terms that will decide the deal.

AC wants planes by 2006, and it needs a larger aircraft for routes like Vancouver-Tokyo, Toronto-London, Montreal-Paris, etc. They don't have a plane with over 300 seats now, and they want one.





Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Dalecary
Posted 2005-01-31 05:01:41 and read 20629 times.

Sebring,

are we talking 772LR/773ER v 345/346 here???

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: SunriseValley
Posted 2005-01-31 05:07:25 and read 20615 times.

There is quite a change in dynamics at AC since restructuring. Milton is now Chairman, Monty Brewer ex UA is CEO and the biggest shareholder is a NY based investment group.
AC's present AirBus fleet is mainly A319/A320 and A321 of which they have about 113 in total. They only have modest numbers of the the other types; 8 A330-300; 9 A340-300 and 2 A340-500. Their Boeing fleet is 13 767 -200/ER and 30 767 -300ER. So, for whatever it is worth I don't see Airbus having any sort of a lock on this one.
The operating efficiencies and capital recovery costs will be the clincher, I would say.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Solnabo
Posted 2005-01-31 05:20:54 and read 20550 times.


Would love to see AC w A346 and A350 in their fleet.

They ve been married w Boeing too long, time for a divorce IMO  Big thumbs up

Micke/ Suede

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Kim777fan
Posted 2005-01-31 05:24:40 and read 20521 times.

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

When did this happen??

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-01-31 05:31:14 and read 20487 times.

They ve been married w Boeing too long, time for a divorce IMO

Exactly how can you call an airline that operates a huge fleet of A32Xs and a number of Airbus widebodies married to Boeing? I guess it must be one of those "open" marriages. Either that or Airbus is the bimbo mistress.

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

Are you aware that Canada was one of those nonrebellious former British colonies?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-01-31 05:32:26 and read 20489 times.

are we talking 772LR/773ER v 345/346 here???

Even simpler than that. Pick one plane from "Column (A)irbus" and one from "Column (B)oeing".

Air Canada's pilots have yet to agree to terms for what we might call "ultra long haul flying". Nothing AC does not (Toronto to Delhi, Hong kong, etc.) falls into that category of ULH. AC's threshold of interest is more along the lines of "near ultra long flying", probably a max of 15 hours. If it could do Mumbai, maybe JNB, or Vancouver-Sydney nonstop both ways, that would meet most of its next round of expansion needs. It doesn't need an unrestricted Newark-Singapore plane.

As for what will clinch a deal, don't go down the usual path. Read Robert Milton's book about the A330 purchase. Milton was and still is an avowed 777 admirer, and he wasn't president at the time, but he was close to the throne. AC leveraged Airbus for all kinds of considerations over and above the 330s. It got price reductions on undelivered narrowbodies, and great prices on future widebody deliveries. AC's two A340-500s cost $87 million apiece - which is astoundingly cheap. Those planes were priced as part of the 330 contract. In his book, Milton also talks about Boeing being a lot less flexible if you want any kind of consideration. Airbus, on the other hand, has a nuclear pencil sharpener and can do more contortions to get a deal than you see at Cirque du Soleil. So I would say this will go down to the wire and AC will use the fact that both A and B want a deal badly because AC is not American or European and has no financial stake in the manufacture of any of the aircraft like Japanese carriers.





Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Hardkor
Posted 2005-01-31 05:38:44 and read 20448 times.

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

When did this happen??

It's always been this way. It's a parliamentary system with dual executive, the PM is head of gov't, the Queen is head of Stat (represented by the gov. general purely for ceremonial purposes)

Useless IMO, but that's for another discussion board. Is there any chance AC would be interested in any larger aircraft? Such as the A380 or 747ADV?

Hardkor



Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 05:38:58 and read 20448 times.

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????

When did this happen??


1867

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-01-31 05:51:58 and read 20391 times.

Is there any chance AC would be interested in any larger aircraft? Such as the A380 or 747ADV?


No interest whatsoever. Both are too large

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: JoFMO
Posted 2005-01-31 05:52:02 and read 20390 times.

As far as I remember AC still has at least two A346 on order. They deferred the delivery under their bancrupt protection to around 2010. If they desperately need more/new planes it shouldn't be a problem to get an earlier delivery from Airbus.
I hope that they order some more A346 and A345. They need something bigger than their current A343 and something for new routes to South East Asia, India, Australia and maybe South Africa.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: YVR99
Posted 2005-01-31 05:52:40 and read 20392 times.

N328KF:

>>Certainly Montreal culturally has more in common with Burlington, Vermont than Paris, France<<

Not sure if you been to all 3 places but I lived in Montreal for four years and I've visited Vermont and Paris a few times each and, suffice it to say, you might want to check out Montreal on St. Jean Baptiste or Bastille Day!

>>Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State????<<

Yes she is the de facto head of state. She is represented in Ottawa by the Governor General and in the provinces (except Quebec) by Lieutenant Governors. She exercises no actual power and only visits once every few years if she feels so inclined. This set up is the same in all former colonies of the British Empire who remain members of the commonwealth and have not become republics. I.e. unlike the US and Ireland.

A little more on topic, it would be great to see a few more A345s or maybe some A346s in the fleet in 2006 before AC can get some B787s

YVR99

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 05:59:32 and read 20339 times.

I think AC will order the A346 for higher density routes and order the 787-8 as the 763 replacement. As for the 762 replacement, I think the A321 has already done this to some point (I know the seat number differences). If I recall, they are slowly being phased out anyway, no?

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Ktachiya
Posted 2005-01-31 06:05:04 and read 20313 times.

I see a lot of ppl wanting Boeing fleets for them but to think of it logically, I think they will resort to Airbus. To start off with

The A330/340 are the newest orders that they have made in the recent years. The 737-200 from ZIP are gone and more domestic narrow-bodies are operated with the A32x family. And the 747-400 are out of the fleet. If they want fleet commonality or the same manufactuers planes, isn't it logical for them to go to Airbus?

I would love to see the 787, but I just think its unlikely.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-01-31 06:07:44 and read 20296 times.

Actually AC is adding back 762ers, and if you mean they are phasing out 321s, the rumor is only about three leased from AF.

As for splitting the order between two manufacturers, ie. Airbus for the 340, Boeing for the 787, nope. This is winner take all.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-01-31 06:09:02 and read 20283 times.

The order will most likly come down to who can offer the cheapest price. If the CEO does want a mixed A and B fleet then B would most likly get the order. When will all these fleet purchases end?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 06:10:16 and read 20280 times.

The 737-200 and the 747-400 did not have fleet commonality, unlike the A320 and A330.

Again, once a fleet reaches about 35 aircraft commonality is not a significant factor.

I don't know, but I have a feeling AC will go for the 787 rather than A350 for their 767 replacement. I do believe that AC will also order the A346 as well as a couple more A345s.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2005-01-31 06:11:11 and read 20276 times.

They ve been married w Boeing too long, time for a divorce IMO

I won't get involved in the A vs. B wars (cause I'd rather fly a Lockheed), but I've actually thought of AC as one of the least "Boeing" of the major carriers in North America. They had few 727s, no 737s I'm aware of except for what they inherited from Canadian, and in years gone by operated large-ish fleets of DC-8s, DC-9s, and L-1011s mainly, rather than alternative models available from Boeing. (Yes, I'm aware they operated a scant handful of 747s over the years, too.) The long-haul 767s are only a fairly recent addition to their fleet, comparatively speaking, most of them arriving post-1995 (though they started taking delivery of some non-ER -200s beginning in 1982).

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State?

Think Royal Canadian Mounted Police.  Smile

Cheers.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 06:21:11 and read 20209 times.

So could we see the possibility of AC replacing their long-haul fleet (A333/343/345) with Boeing 777/787? In other words, one manufactuer, but multiple types?

Sorry, I may not be thinking straight, I'm a little excited....  Big grin

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 06:23:43 and read 20190 times.

They have multiple types already. Who says they won't have multiple types in the future? It's wishful thinking on the part of those who think they're preordained to order one way or the other. In this case, the 7E7 may be the far more compelling choice, but if their near-term aircraft needs are a factor, then that may tip the scales for Airbus.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-01-31 06:27:52 and read 20163 times.

So could we see the possibility of AC replacing their long-haul fleet (A333/343/345) with Boeing 777/787? In other words, one manufactuer, but multiple types? The CEO has stated that he does not want to rely on one manufactuer. So the answer is no.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2005-01-31 06:29:42 and read 20158 times.

Quoted from the Financial Times article:
>>>
Robert Milton, chief executive, said the airline was likely to order either the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner or the Airbus A-350, each with a capacity of about 250 passengers. The new aircraft will replace an ageing fleet of wide-body Boeing 767s.
<<<

This is an odd statement.

The 787 or A-350 are stated to be 250 seat aircraft.

AC's B-767s have 200-210 seats.

AC's A330s and A340s have 270-280 seats.

It would seem either choice would be closer to the capacity of the A330/A340 than a B-767.

Also, while a few of AC's 767-200s are ±20 years old, most are much newer and would not qualify as "aging"






Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 06:33:18 and read 20139 times.

Skydrol:

Ever heard of the term "expansion?"

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 06:34:28 and read 20135 times.

So could we see the possibility of AC replacing their long-haul fleet (A333/343/345) with Boeing 777/787? In other words, one manufactuer, but multiple types? The CEO has stated that he does not want to rely on one manufactuer. So the answer is no.

I believe Milton is referring to the entire AC mainline fleet relying on one manufactuer.


[Edited 2005-01-31 06:37:57]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Dakotasport
Posted 2005-01-31 06:35:54 and read 20130 times.

Going with ANYTHING else but the 787 is FOOLISH IMHO! Their 76s have served them incredibly well the past decades and that should give them a good incentive to go out and purchase another very high quality product from Boeing. Wake up bean counters, and buy the 787, even if it may cost a bit more!

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: ViveLeYHZ
Posted 2005-01-31 06:40:12 and read 20114 times.

I think (and hope) AC will go for Boeings this time. The airline needs more ultra-long rage aircrafts ASAP for their Asian routes from YYZ (AC recently announced non-stop flights to Beijing from YYZ). The 777-200 would be ideal for these routes, as well as south pacific/Asian routes from YVR.

AC will also want to replace their aging 767's, and my guess the 7E7 (787) will be a good replacement. If I was a betting person, I would put my money on 15 777-200's and 35 787's.

I personally can't see why AC won't order 15 340-500's from Airbus and 35 787's from Boeing. They recently ordered regional jets from Bombardier and Embraer, with concurrent deliveries. But I am hoping Boeing can give AC and offer they can't refuse on 777's and 787's.

Cheers,
ViveLeYHZ (and long live the Queen)  Smile

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Skydrol
Posted 2005-01-31 06:43:44 and read 20083 times.

N328KF wrote:
>>>
Skydrol:

Ever heard of the term "expansion?"
<<<

Sure. But all of the routes I have flown on AC are now being served by smaller aircraft than ever before during the last 25 years, so I believe the correct term would be "compression"




LD4



Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Iowa744fan
Posted 2005-01-31 06:43:51 and read 20077 times.

Sebring,

What is the name of this book? I would be interested in finding it to read. I assume that it is rather recent?

JoFMo,

I was just wondering the same thing about whether or not they still had any 345s/346s on order or if all were cancelled.

Aerowesty,

I agree with you entirely on your comment. I don't think that the AC 747 Classic fleet ever amounted to more than ten aircraft. As for the 744, IIRC, they only ordered 3, all Combis. How many did Canadian have, 8? Still, I agree with you that except for the 727 and 767, they have always tended to go elsewhere...especially to Douglas back in it's heyday. So, I find Solnabo's comment a bit odd since there never has been a very strong tie.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 06:44:31 and read 20070 times.

Dakotasport:

Costs more? On list price only, the 787s are cheaper.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 06:48:03 and read 20048 times.

Air Canada had 3 747-433 Combis PW engines
Canadian had 4 747-400 all passenger, GE engines.

Okay... meds are kicking in.... going to bed.... legs getting numb....

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-01-31 06:54:34 and read 20023 times.


In other words, one manufactuer, but multiple types?

Sorry, I may not be thinking straight, I'm a little excited....  


Certainly the ideal option, assuming everything falls into place. But... it could just as easily go to Airbus. The one plane people don't give nearly enough attention to when the argue A vs B is the new A340-600HGW, the 380MT version going into service this year. You don't need the A345 if you have this plane.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: ViveLeYHZ
Posted 2005-01-31 07:00:52 and read 19988 times.

Just a side note, I love how everyone here is using "787" already, when only a week ago it was 7E7. (I like the 7E7 better myself)

AC7E7 (or AC787), are you changing your name any time soon ?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

AeroWesty,

Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's Head of State?
Think Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Royal Canadian Air Force (and the Royal Canadian Air Farce)  Smile

Iowa744fan,

I think Sebring is referring to Robert Milton's book: Straight from the Top: The Truth About Air Canada

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-01-31 07:00:59 and read 19991 times.

What is the name of this book? I would be interested in finding it to read. I assume that it is rather recent?


Published a few months ago

Straight from the Top; The Truth About Air Canada
By Robert Milton

I'm pretty sure you can get it on Amazon.com, or try Chapters.ca.

All of Milton's royalties go to Dreams Take Flight, an Air Canada employee charity that flies sick or disadvantaged children on an escorted trip to Disneyland or Disney World.




Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2005-01-31 07:56:26 and read 19651 times.

After just finishing reading Miltons amazing autibiography, I can safely say that judging by the contents of that book especially the A 330/340 vs B 777 chapter, that neither the A 350 nor B 787 will be shown any clear favouritism what so ever on the planned 50 aircraft purchase spree.

By judging from his book, Milton is a smart and calculating businessman who sign the deal once he thinks the PRICE IS RIGHT and he gets what he wants in terms of future prospectful orders etc etc.

As for wanting a 300+ seater, the A 346 of which 2 are undelivered as yet is probably the best way to go for the time being.

AC has said that its B 767-200 fleet is officially being replaced by A 321s on North American and domestic routes. As far as this order goes, the A 358 and A 359 is too big of an aircraft to replace ACs 2 class configured B 763ERs which seats 210 pax. The best replacement in terms of pax size wise and range too would be the B 787-800 which in ACs configuration style seat around 230-245 pax in a 2 class layout where as the A 358 would do 260-275 which would make it similar to their 266 seater A 333s.

It was interesting reading one person's post concerning AC paying US $ 87 million for each A 340-500...over 50% discount!!!  Big grin

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3
Username: Boeingfever777
Posted 2005-01-31 08:12:05 and read 19568 times.

As far as I remember AC still has at least two A346 on order.

airbus.com shows (3) on order still.

I do believe that AC will also order the A346  Confused

well since its on order I think they already ordered it. Did you mean to say they will fill these orders?

o'yeah...the topic.

Would be cool to see the AC livery on the 777/787.

[Edited 2005-01-31 08:13:16]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: BlackKnight
Posted 2005-01-31 08:21:39 and read 19503 times.

Look could AC and this is just a suggestion change the A346 for A321's and make an order for 777/787. Also B could pull another buy and switch with only 2 frames involved.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-01-31 08:51:05 and read 19376 times.

>Certainly Montreal culturally has more in common with Burlington, Vermont than Paris, France.<

You have got to be kidding me

>They ve been married w Boeing too long, time for a divorce<

Which qualifies as 1 Boeing aircraft in 40 years. AC is an almost entirely Airbus carrier.

Given AC's capacity needs, the 787 is more the plane they are looking for. They have plenty of newer A340/A330s, so that takes care of the higher end of their spectrum, but if they are to do longer hauls out of places like YEG and more from YYC, the 787 really is the plane they need. Also, the oldest members of the 767 fleet are smaller -200s, the 787 would actually be a capacity increase over those aircraft, while burning less fuel.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-01-31 09:11:23 and read 19247 times.

Isn´t that old news. In december there was a talk about a joint Star Alliance (especially Air Canada and Lufthansa) purchase of either A350 or 787.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: BMED
Posted 2005-01-31 09:34:04 and read 19138 times.

Although I would like to see AC order the A350 I can see the 787 wining. It is a nice a/c although airbus have been selling a lot of orders lately so anything is possible. I think that the A350 might have the upper hand though.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: FCKC
Posted 2005-01-31 10:05:31 and read 19026 times.

A good test in the 787/A350 battle.Exciting..........

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Acidradio
Posted 2005-01-31 11:07:51 and read 18831 times.

OK, I guess this is off-track, but rather important. Is AC actually financially solvent to say, order 50 WIDEBODIES? And will they FILL these 50 WIDEBODIES? Maybe they went from dire straits to having some huge cash reserve available and I missed it, but in order to buy 50 WIDEBODIES you have to actually have money (except if you order from Airbus, OK now that was mean). If I missed AC going from the absolute toilet to becoming some financial superpower, great, but did that really happen?

Yeah, I guess I could talk about how I want to buy a new Maybach or a Rolls-Royce next year. But since I don't have the cash for such an undertaking, I'd look pretty foolish if I did.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AeroWesty
Posted 2005-01-31 11:14:36 and read 18803 times.

Is AC actually financially solvent to say, order 50 WIDEBODIES?

I think your answer is in the opening post:

Air Canada is forecasting an operating profit of about C$1.6bn (US$1.28bn) this year.

Only time will tell if their predictions come true, but that kind of cash would certainly buy a plane or two.

Cheers.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Acidradio
Posted 2005-01-31 11:35:02 and read 18718 times.

I think your answer is in the opening post:

Point taken. Alright, their predictions better be on par and I better see an order for 50 787s  Big grin

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3
Username: Csavel
Posted 2005-01-31 12:19:57 and read 18502 times.

Does anybody know if any of the 787 will be made in Canada? I know a lot of it is supposed to be made in Japan and thus may influence thinking there. If so, that may skew the tinking of Air Canada.

Certainly Montreal culturally has more in common with Burlington, Vermont than Paris, France.

WTF? Either this was a flamebait or a joke. Other than Montreal style bagels, and perhaps UVM students going over the border to drink, there is less in common between these two cities than any other city pair on the US Canada border (I know they are not really "border" cities, but they are a relatively short drive.)

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Knoxibus
Posted 2005-01-31 12:52:42 and read 18384 times.

If you think in terms of what they need capacity wise, availability date and DOC, I would bet on the 787 (erghh can't get used to it, I preferred the 7E7).

Seriously, who cares about commonality when talking such big numbers, as many said previously.

And the 787 is cheaper anyway, and should (will) perform better so...definitely the 787!

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Voodoo
Posted 2005-01-31 13:12:52 and read 18268 times.

Hmmm you would think it would go the 787 way but there was probably more reason in the `90s for them to order the 777 over the 340, and look what happened.....

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Fhgandi
Posted 2005-01-31 13:46:39 and read 18123 times.

I wonder, if Boeing's 787 will make it against the A350, how big the money war will be... i.e. how much price reduction AC will receive...

IMO, Boeing would be nothing without US military money and Airbus would be nothing without subsidies... hence, we were without any objects to speak about... SCNR...

I really would like to fly both when ever available...

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Rj111
Posted 2005-01-31 15:14:30 and read 17608 times.

If they want to replace 767's the 787 seems more logical on a size basis, commonality is irrelevent as many have pointed out. From the stats i've seen, the A350 is still a very competetive product though and talk of it being a sub par plane is ignorant. I could see them operating both at some point.

They're not going to order the 777.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Ac1
Posted 2005-01-31 15:19:32 and read 17573 times.

The A350 will win based on negociated price...again.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Yhz78
Posted 2005-01-31 15:22:59 and read 17538 times.

>>OK, I guess this is off-track, but rather important. Is AC actually financially solvent to say, order 50 WIDEBODIES? And will they FILL these 50 WIDEBODIES? Maybe they went from dire straits to having some huge cash reserve available and I missed it, but in order to buy 50 WIDEBODIES you have to actually have money (except if you order from Airbus, OK now that was mean). If I missed AC going from the absolute toilet to becoming some financial superpower, great, but did that really happen?

Yeah, I guess I could talk about how I want to buy a new Maybach or a Rolls-Royce next year. But since I don't have the cash for such an undertaking, I'd look pretty foolish if I did. <<

Due to the near saturation of Canada's domestic market, it is becoming increasingly understood that AC is better off leaving the bulk of the domestic flying to Jazz, and concentrating more on their international routes. Sorry, but I can't see A320/319's doing too many YVR to SYD routes.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Ac1
Posted 2005-01-31 15:43:16 and read 17405 times.

Back in the early '90s when AC was deciding on wether to purchase the A340 or the 777, the decision came down to price wars with Airbus and Boeing. Boeing didn't offer as attractive a package as Airbus did. Both the A350 and 787 will be technological marvels but I believe the same thing will happen again. I could also see AC ordering more 345s and 346s for the major international expansion.
On that point, do we know what are the most likely destinations AC is considering? I've heard Athens, Theran, Beirut, Geneva, Saigon and Moscow as possibilities but nothing concrete yet.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 16:16:50 and read 17172 times.

Ac1:

Airbus will have to negotiate a lot harder this time. The list prices themselves are very far apart, and in Boeing's favor. The A350-800 lists at around $152mil. I don't remember what list is on the 787-9 but the 787-8 is about $120. It's thought that ANA got them for 50%, but at this stage, nobody will get them for that unless they order 400 of them.

So this part is conjecture. If anyone knows the 787-9 list price, feel free to fill it in.

Say that the 787-9 is around $140mil. Knock off around 25% because of a 50-unit order. That's $105mil. Airbus has to knock off 30% just to get to the same point.

The equation becomes even more skewed if I've overeestimated the 787-9 price, as I've tried to be conservative with that number.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-01-31 16:21:45 and read 17135 times.

On the issue of AC's ability to afford planes:

It has very little debt now, has assets potentially worth billions, and a cost structure that should allow it to make a tidy profit. Even if the numbers in the plan are a little optimistic with $48 crude, that same crude price will likely be the downfall of some of its competitors, making it possible for AC to raise prices. The key point is that the 787/350 portion of the order would only start in five years or so, and would continue gradually through the next decade. So even if AC were fantastically profitable today, who knows what state the airline, or the airline industry, will be in 2015.

I figure the front-end plane they want, either a 777 or 340, will cost on the order of $1-1.5 billion, depending on how many they order. The airline's planned sale of a part interest in Aeroplan this year could easily cover one-third to one-half of that order, with the rest debt financed and/or funded out of cash flow.

Another misconception floated by a poster here is that AC can continue to expand with used aircraft, that 340s are somehow plentiful.They are not. The used aircraft market has tightened considerably in the past 12 months. Good planes are not easy to find, and AC doesn't want 747s. That's why AC is looking to buy planes. It wants to lock in capacity.






Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-01-31 16:57:30 and read 16891 times.

well since its on order I think they already ordered it. Did you mean to say they will fill these orders?

Yes, that's what I meant, they will take delivery of the already ordered aircraft.

OK, I guess this is off-track, but rather important. Is AC actually financially solvent to say, order 50 WIDEBODIES? And will they FILL these 50 WIDEBODIES? Maybe they went from dire straits to having some huge cash reserve available and I missed it, but in order to buy 50 WIDEBODIES you have to actually have money (except if you order from Airbus, OK now that was mean). If I missed AC going from the absolute toilet to becoming some financial superpower, great, but did that really happen?

I knew this was going to come up  Smile These aircraft will not even be flying with the airline for another 4 to 5 years! AC will not put up any money now.

AC7E7 (or AC787), are you changing your name any time soon ?

Tempting, but I'm going to keep the --7E7 for old time sake  Smile

Airbus would have to significantly reduce the price of the undelivered A346 as well as new discounts on other widebodies AC will order from them if they end up ordering the A350. Doesn't the A346s AC has on order cancellable without penalty? For Boeing, if they end up winning this order, it will be a huge victory. Not only with an order for 50+ 787s, but also on heavily discounted 777 aircraft. We all know Airbus is going to discount their planes, but I think Boeing will put up quite a fight this time round. This is a huge order they cannot pass up.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-01-31 16:59:11 and read 16879 times.

If AC does acquire 50 aircraft, does it not make this order the largest ever for the airline? It looks like we're going to see some major changes on the international front.
Being such a large order and considering how the A350 is in the very early stages of development, I could see Airbus soliciting AC with heavy discounts yet again, which is sure to stir up another A vs B debate. Fasten your seltbelts.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2005-01-31 17:14:59 and read 16756 times.

Boeing has shown an unwillingness in the recent past to negotiate aircraft purchases with financially unstable airlines. AC certainly falls into this category. If Milton wants to negotiate the best deal, he is going to have to show some profits at AC. He has reported no profits to date and his track record is dismal.

By judging from his book, Milton is a smart and calculating businessman who sign the deal once he thinks the PRICE IS RIGHT and he gets what he wants in terms of future prospectful orders etc etc.

Keep in mind Milton's book is just a self-gloss. He's a master at blaming everyone but himself. The fact remains he became CEO of a profitable AC in 1999 and drove it down into bankruptcy in about 3.5 years. His father was a rich man with good connections. Robert Milton is the incompetent son.




Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2005-01-31 17:17:44 and read 16732 times.

I think it's more likely that AC will buy the 787-8 for "thinner" long routes and the A340-600HGW for routes like YYZ-HKG non-stop (the Toronto, ON area has a very large Hong Kong expatriate population).

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Nyc777
Posted 2005-01-31 17:25:07 and read 16672 times.

Does nyone know when this year the decision will be made. All we know is it's later in '05. When in '05 though?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: MidnightMike
Posted 2005-01-31 17:30:30 and read 16621 times.

If Air Canada needs aircraft ASAP, should be interesting to see which company they go with? Can they really wait till 2008 for the 7E7 or 2010 for the A350? Could see either Airbus or Boeing lease AC aircraft for the short term until either the A350 or 7E7 comes out....

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-01-31 17:35:31 and read 16582 times.

"The fact remains he became CEO of a profitable AC in 1999 and drove it down into bankruptcy in about 3.5 years"

YYZ717 you obvioulsly don't like Milton but this statement is way off base. You're aware that most North American airlines are either in bankruptcy or on the verge. AC's situation HAD little if nothing to do with Milton. The global airline industry has been shocked and rocked for the last 4 years and Sars and the CP merger but AC under, not Milton. He actually saved the airline in the way he dealt with each successive crisis.

On topic...
People have mentioned 2010 for delivery of the A350. Was is not supposed to be ready in time for the 787 launch...2008? Even so, I'm not sure if that will affect AC's decision since the bulk of the 767 fleet is in good shape and could easily last until 2010.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 17:37:09 and read 16569 times.

AC1:

Who knows. Boeing found 757s for Continental. The 767 line has plenty of capacity though if necessary.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-01-31 17:38:24 and read 16555 times.

A350 EIs is 2010 and the 787 EIs is 2008.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: SunriseValley
Posted 2005-01-31 17:38:43 and read 16554 times.


I wonder how much of a parallel there is to the AirNZ order in which, apparently, they locked in future fleet renewal/ expansion on what must have been very favourable terms. Admittedly AirNZ were starting with a clean slate whereas AC has types in it's fleet that wouldn't make such a deal quite so clear-cut. Delivery for summer 2006 means an order has to placed pretty soon.
I would think their present 2- A340-500's might figure into the deal somewhere. If there is a demand for the type they probably could move them out at an attractive price, especially since Sebring says they got them for bargain prices.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-01-31 17:59:07 and read 16390 times.

It will be interesting to see what AC does from now until delivery of the new aircraft. They need several more long-haul planes for 2005 (partially covered by the return of 2 767s from desert storage) and many more for 2006 and 2007. I doubt AC will wait...more likely to lease more 340s (if they are available) or 763s. How many 767s are still stored...anyone know? FIN 605 is currently in the Montreal hangar without nose gear, name and without an engine. It's not going anywhere for awhile...

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Daedaeg
Posted 2005-01-31 18:23:34 and read 16197 times.

Does anybody know if any of the 787 will be made in Canada? I know a lot of it is supposed to be made in Japan and thus may influence thinking there. If so, that may skew the tinking of Air Canada.


Yes Boeing has a major manufactering facility in Winnipeg. They make a lot of the complex composite panels and sub-assemblies, particulary wing-body fairings, thrust reverser doors, and engine struts fairings for all of the current models.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Iowa744Fan
Posted 2005-01-31 18:49:22 and read 15998 times.

To those who listed the information about Milton's book, Thank you! I will have to find that and buy a copy soon!

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: DeltaWings
Posted 2005-01-31 20:06:48 and read 15473 times.

So It's obvious they want to replace the 767s. Well, the A350 is just way to big for a replacement. Okay, the A358 could be used as a replacement for the 763, but for the 762- no way. That's why the 787 just seems more likely because it is a suitable 763 and 762 replacement. Let's say they go for the A350. The A358 would take over the routes, that the 763 flew on, and the A321 would have to take up the routes the 762 flew on. But the A321 can only be used domestically, so that means the ''762'' replacement could never fly overseas, like to ZRH. They would have to use the A358 all the time, but it is to big, and that may turn out as a problem.


~DeltaWings

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-01-31 20:08:08 and read 15447 times.

The 7E7 is too big to be a good replacement for the 762, as well.

N

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: StanstedFlyer
Posted 2005-01-31 21:39:34 and read 14748 times.

Whatever they order, PLEASE put some decent IFE on board! 11 hours of head bobbing trying to watch a film.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: StarAC17
Posted 2005-01-31 21:56:07 and read 14613 times.

Would AC use either of these planes on YVR-SYD non-stop or would they put their A345's on this route once they get them. I would think that the 787 would be great for that route because I don't think it is that high yielding because they usually use a A343 or B767 on it via HNL so if the 767's are retired then I think either would be a good choice to fill this route given they should have the range.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2005-01-31 21:57:47 and read 14593 times.

AC's two A340-500s cost $87 million apiece - which is astoundingly cheap. Those planes were priced as part of the 330 contract

Perhaps Boeing can give SQ a nudge on behalf of AC...

..if (or more likely, once) SQ discards its A345s in the near future; AC might be able to get them for a smashing deal as well. Works for everyone ('cept Airbus), no?  Big grin

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Trent900
Posted 2005-01-31 21:59:25 and read 14569 times.

another very high quality product from Boeing

So your saying Airbus products arn't of high quility?? The 7E7 hasn't even been built yet let alone flown for the first time. They may have problems, no one knows.

T.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2005-01-31 22:18:25 and read 14426 times.

So your saying Airbus products arn't of high quility?? The 7E7 hasn't even been built yet let alone flown for the first time. They may have problems, no one knows.

If history repeats itself (which it frequently does), the 787 will be a better aircraft. The 737NG is better than the A320. The 757 is better than the A321. The 777 is better than the A340. Nobody can deny these facts, just look at the numbers. Furthermore, the 787 is a brand-new design, while the A350 is a derivative. Based on the much longer development time of the 787, plus Boeing's long history of EXCEEDING all design expectations, I think it's justified to say the 787 will be a better aircraft.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Trent900
Posted 2005-01-31 22:30:44 and read 14331 times.

I have to disagree with you there my friend. From experience Airbus are much more comfortable to fly in. Take the 320 for example. Even though the cabin is around only 4 inches wider then the 737 it is very noticable from a passengers point of view. A340's are much quieter to fly in then 777's, you haven't got the continuous moan from the engines in your ears for 12 hours etc etc...

Boeing do build super aircraft and so do Airbus. Everyones got their own favourites, including the airlines.

T.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Lazybones
Posted 2005-01-31 22:50:39 and read 14160 times.

FrendlySkies, that is the most ridiculous comparison i've ever read. How do you define better when talking about A/C There are just too many factors to consider. Performance/safety/technology/FMC/commonality/price?? Did you forget the 747-400 is better the A380-800  Nuts

And on the thread subject, As a betting man i'd say sorry Boeing my money's on Airbus for this order.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: ConcordeBoy
Posted 2005-01-31 23:04:25 and read 14058 times.

A340's are much quieter to fly in then 777's, you haven't got the continuous moan from the engines in your ears for 12 hours etc etc...

...plenty of people prefer the latter.

While I certainly won't argue that there isn't a equal/greater number of people who want a quieter cabin; keep in mind that one of the cornerstones of aviation anxiety therapy is to pick a constant sound/action and focus on it for comfort--- engine hum being the number 1 choice.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-01-31 23:26:12 and read 13893 times.

The 737NG is better than the A320.

I'm sure you can exactly explain the details of that rather generalized and unprofessional statement...


The 757 is better than the A321.

Is that the reason why the B757 hasn't been sold any more in the last years and had to be stopped, while many new operators chose the A321 - such as Aeroflot, British Airways, Iberia, LTU, MEA, Royal Air Maroc, Spirit?
What does "better" mean? The B757 offers a range which most airlines do not need. The A321's advantage is its lower weight for short and medium hauls. Plus its advantage of cargo loading capability...


The 777 is better than the A340.

Air Mauritius, China Eastern, Emirates, Iberia, LAN, Lufthansa, Qatar Airways, SAS, South African, SriLankan, Swiss, TAP, Turkish Airlines or Virgin Atlantic might want to disagree. It depends on the airlines' route and fleet structure, plus a dozen other aspects (commonality, engine choice, acquisition costs etc) to determine which aircraft suits best.


Nobody can deny these facts, just look at the numbers.

YOU deny it...and the numbers are sometimes just numbers. How many more years was the B757 available compared to the A321? And though the B737NG has good numbers, the A320 family has great numbers, too. Sometimes you also have to look behind the numbers...
Btw, what about the A330? Why haven't you mentioned that hot seller?


Furthermore, the 787 is a brand-new design, while the A350 is a derivative.

And how does this relate to your previous statements?


Based on the much longer development time of the 787, plus Boeing's long history of EXCEEDING all design expectations, I think it's justified to say the 787 will be a better aircraft.

It's justified to have that opinion. But we have to wait and see. Boeing also talked a lot about the Sonic Cruiser.


keep in mind that one of the cornerstones of aviation anxiety therapy is to pick a constant sound/action and focus on it for comfort--- engine hum being the number 1 choice.

Do you really think so many flyers suffer from aviation anxiety?


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AAgent
Posted 2005-01-31 23:39:24 and read 13765 times.

So... Since it appears that so many are certain that Airbus is destined to win the AC order, I guess I'll have to root for the underdog, in this case, Boeing. GO BIG "B"!!!

Regards,
AAgent

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Milan320
Posted 2005-01-31 23:40:19 and read 13751 times.

I wouldn't be surprised if AC purchased the 7E7 (787) given that Canada's Minister of Transport,Jean Lapierre along with Robert Milton are pushing the US government to agree to the "open-skies" treaty.
So expect the US government to be corrupt or should I say lobby  Wink/being sarcastic AC and the Canadian government into buying the 787 and in turn granting the open skies agreement.
However, I believe Milton is quite fair. I believe that even more so after reading his book and I have respect for the guy. So who knows. Didn't one of the AC execs recently state that they're moving towards an all Airbus fleet?
Also, Boeing's sales and marketing team have failed on a number of occassions with AC, with Milton citing them as being unflexible, unlike Airbus.
Only time will tell, but I hope that AC chooses the A350.

/Milan320

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-01-31 23:44:25 and read 13726 times.

Milan320:

Julius Caesar was a saint in his book, too.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AussieItaliano
Posted 2005-01-31 23:45:57 and read 13710 times.

"Nobody can deny these facts, just look at the numbers."

What numbers do you have to substantiate these facts? I would like to know to what you are referring. Are you speaking about performance specs?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Western737
Posted 2005-01-31 23:48:20 and read 13683 times.

Naturally that everybody included myself saying every aircraft are great or best ever built each time it introduced. Yet, I still considered window size is a big deal. A320 family which happened to have the unrealistic tiny windows. I am not sure about A350 though, but window size might be one of many factors on decision by AC if they are relying on passengers' preference.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: NorCalSF
Posted 2005-02-01 00:19:21 and read 13476 times.

Here's another article from Dow Jones:

TORONTO -- Air Canada plans to purchase 50 wide-body aircraft to service its expanding international network, the Financial Times reported Monday.

The newspaper said the airline, a division of ACE Aviation Holdings Ltd. (ACE.B.T), is considering either the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner or the Airbus A-350, each with capacity for about 250 passengers. The new aircraft would replace the airline's older Boeing 767s.

Laura Cooke, a spokeswoman for Air Canada, said the airline does plan to expand its international fleet in the future, but had no immediate plans. What will happen shortly, however, is a decision on the type of aircraft to be part of the long-term fleet renewal plan.

"There's a significant difference between a decision on the type of aircraft and the actual financing," Cooke said. She said any delivery of new wide-body planes included in the plan would not likely be made until 2010.

The airline has been rapidly expanding its international network, launching new flights to Asia and Latin America.

Earlier this year, ACE Aviation's chief executive Robert Milton said the airline was looking for about six used Boeing 767s to add to its fleet.

Air Canada will also begin taking delivery later this year of the first in a planned order of up to 105 regional jets from Bombardier Inc. (BBD.SV.B.T) of Canada and Embraer S.A. (ERJ) of Brazil. The smaller regional jets will service the airline's domestic and transborder markets.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-01 00:23:27 and read 13431 times.

What will happen shortly, however, is a decision on the type of aircraft to be part of the long-term fleet renewal plan.

...I'm getting goosebumps....  Big grin

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2005-02-01 00:36:15 and read 13343 times.

The following was in FI today...

The new widebody order was agreed to by creditors as part of Air Canada’s restructuring; the carrier emerged from bankruptcy in October, and is forecasting EBITDAR (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization and rent) of approximately C$1.6 billion ($1.28 billion) for 2005.

A 50-aircraft order is “consistent with our international growth strategy…long haul routes are performing very well”, says the spokesman, adding: “Toronto-Hong Kong launched last year. Last week we announced plans to introduce Toronto-Beijing and our South American expansion strategy is also being very positive.”

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-02-01 01:46:53 and read 12905 times.

I thought the US and Canada already had open skies. Does Canada want fifth freedom rights?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Lazybones
Posted 2005-02-01 01:53:27 and read 12849 times.

if they are relying on passengers' preference.

You hit the nail right on the head! But for the opposite reason. Airlines don't actually give a toss what pax think in that regard because they know we order flights with our credit cards after finding the best deal (ie cheapest!).

Don't get me wrong Western737, i'd love it if what you said was true. But i don't think i've ever seen an internet flight booking site which has a selection that says dates, class, number of adults and Aircraft Type!  Smile

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-01 01:58:31 and read 12816 times.

You hit the nail right on the head! But for the opposite reason. Airlines don't actually give a toss what pax think in that regard because they know we order flights with our credit cards after finding the best deal (ie cheapest!).

One reason why AC is ordering the ERJ175/190 is because of the superior passenger comfort it offers. It is a regional aircraft with big jet comfort.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-02-01 02:15:27 and read 12764 times.

>The one plane people don't give nearly enough attention to when the argue A vs B is the new A340-600HGW, the 380MT version going into service this year. You don't need the A345 if you have this plane.<

Um, yes you still do, since the A346HGW will have less range than the 773ER, let alone the A345 and 772LR.

>The 737NG is better than the A320.<

Lower fuel burn, more range, more capacity on the best selling models (unless you are U2) for the 737. Better dispatch, actual engine choice for the A32S. Similar cruise.

>I'm sure you can exactly explain the details of that rather generalized and unprofessional statement...<

Um, since when is he a professional? And who are you to tell people about generalizations?

>The 777 is better than the A340.<

In every way, except price

>Air Mauritius, China Eastern, Emirates, Iberia, LAN, Lufthansa, Qatar Airways, SAS, South African, SriLankan, Swiss, TAP, Turkish Airlines or Virgin Atlantic might want to disagree. It depends on the airlines' route and fleet structure, plus a dozen other aspects (commonality, engine choice, acquisition costs etc) to determine which aircraft suits best.<

One of which bailed on the 777 because of the screwup of an engine builder, another of which may have breached the Promissory Estoppel doctrine of the CISG, another of which flies both aircraft. Route structure matters not here.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2005-02-01 02:31:36 and read 12688 times.

I'm talking about performance. An aircraft isn't built to make pax happy, that's up to the airlines. An aircraft is designed to perform at the highest levels possible, something that Boeing is extremely good at doing:

If you want numbers, visit http://www.boeing.com/commercial and http://www.airbus.com.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-02-01 03:44:47 and read 12535 times.

Air Canada has operated Boeing 767s and Airbus 340s across the Pacific even though they are a bit slower than other, larger Boeing products. It makes no matter whatsoever to AC that its transpac flights takes 15 minutes more.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2005-02-01 04:40:38 and read 12417 times.

Given that AC already operates the 333/343/345, it seems logical that the 332 (or the A350) is the best fit for AC. I presume that the A350 will still have considerable commonality with the 333/345.

Ordering the 787 alongside an existing fleet of 333/343/345 simply adds unnecessary fleet complexity. While I'm more a Boeing fan, it just makes alot of sense for AC to go with the 332/A350. I can't imagine that lower prices or a better financing deal from Boeing will make up for having a mixed fleet for the next 20+ years.



Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AirbusfanYYZ
Posted 2005-02-01 05:00:14 and read 12377 times.

AAgent,
There is only one "Big B" and he lives in Mumbai. Big grin


I can't believe how many of you on a.net are all worked up into a lather regarding this "news".
Is this to distract us all from the wildcat strike at AC recently and all it's associated bad press?

Cheers,
Kaz

[Edited 2005-02-01 05:06:27]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-02-01 05:11:18 and read 12340 times.

Ordering the 787 alongside an existing fleet of 333/343/345 simply adds unnecessary fleet complexity.

Hmm, they haven't had a problem operating a large fleet of 767s along side a smaller fleet of A330/A340s. If the order for the 250 seater aircraft is as large as indicated, if they went with the 787s, it would be the existing small Airbus widebody fleet that would look strange.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Propulsion
Posted 2005-02-01 05:14:42 and read 12327 times.


I hope they go 787. It would be nice to see a North American carrier order this plane in large quanities.  Big thumbs up

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-02-01 05:26:21 and read 12299 times.

Propulsion:

No kidding. I'm at ORD, so we don't see many CO types here, and I'd like to fly on the 787 without going to Japan or China.  Big grin Not that I would mind dropping by either of those places.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-01 15:35:48 and read 12021 times.

Airbusfanyyz, we are "worked up in a lather" because this is a "huge" order on several fronts.

1) The very tense fight between Airbus and Boeing is only going to heat up even more, perhaps boil over. Boeing was angry at missing AC's last long-haul purchase and they will fight hard for this one. Airbus would love a substantial order for it's new craft.

2) It's AC's largest ever purchase of aircraft meaning new routes, redeployments and retirements. That's the stuff we love as aviation enthusiasts.

About the order, I doubt AC will order 50 of exactly the same type. In the past they have always mixed and matched.. ie 345 and 346, 340 and 330, 319,320,321. This time around we may see 358, 359 and 345. With luck, maybe even 388 thrown in for good measure (kidding).

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Rj111
Posted 2005-02-01 15:47:03 and read 11999 times.

>The 737NG is better than the A320.<

Lower fuel burn, more range, more capacity on the best selling models (unless you are U2) for the 737. Better dispatch, actual engine choice for the A32S. Similar cruise


Yes and the A320 came out many years before the 737NG and still holds it's own in today's market.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: LH477
Posted 2005-02-01 16:16:05 and read 11925 times.

I hope AC goes with any Airbus product. If past history is any indication, they will get a better deal from Airbus then Boeing.

It would be a bit of setback for Boeing to lose probarbly the only North American scheduled customer who can afford a sizable order.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-02-01 16:36:54 and read 11886 times.

LH477:

Historical trends in this sense are no reason to "hope" for it. With estimated lower unit and operating costs, your argument is hogwash.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A3
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-02-01 18:35:48 and read 11754 times.

Lower fuel burn, more range, more capacity on the best selling models (unless you are U2) for the 737. Better dispatch, actual engine choice for the A32S. Similar cruise.

You forgot to mention the A320 familiy’s excellent cargo loading capability, as well as commonality aspects. And add availability to the list.


Um, since when is he a professional? And who are you to tell people about generalizations?

I am the one who dislikes generalisations.
And I never assumed he is a professional…I just called his statement “unprofessional” in order to remain diplomatic… ,-)


In every way, except price

Many A340 operators could afford to buy the B777…but some just didn’t want to and chose the A340. As usual, you fail to see the dozens of different reasons that are important to making a decision in favour or against an aircraft type.
Following your “theory”, only financially troubled or weak airlines would find it logic to go for the A340…  Yeah sure


One of which bailed on the 777 because of the screwup of an engine builder,

Well, the engine is an important part of the aircraft. If the engine fails to satisfy an airline, then it’s not surprising the airline takes the competitor’s aircraft…  Insane


another of which may have breached the Promissory Estoppel doctrine of the CISG,

Details please.


another of which flies both aircraft. Route structure matters not here.

Yeah, EK flies both. But why? Except for the A345 they could replace any A340 type (current or on order) with B777s. And don’t talk about price now…

What about all the other airlines? Did they choose the A340 because its cabin is so quiet?  Wink/being sarcastic
Oh, and route structure DOES matter. Airlines flying long sectors over water don’t have to worry about ETOPS with the A340…


I'm talking about performance. An aircraft isn't built to make pax happy, that's up to the airlines. An aircraft is designed to perform at the highest levels possible, something that Boeing is extremely good at doing:

True. But the A320 family and the A330 are also known for high level performance. And not every Boeing derivative has reached highest performance levels.



Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Milan320
Posted 2005-02-01 18:39:06 and read 11742 times.

I am not sure about A350 though, but window size might be one of many factors on decision by AC if they are relying on passengers' preference.

I don't think AC could give a toss about window size. Half the time the FAs tell the people to pull down the window shades to watch a movie, and very few people sit and stare out the window.
In the end it will be economics and not window size.
/Milan320

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: RJ111
Posted 2005-02-01 18:43:09 and read 11726 times.

One of which bailed on the 777 because of the screwup of an engine builder,

Remeber that original order for 20 A342's by NW?

.....the A343 was lucky to be alive after PW pulled the plug on the SuperFan!!!!  Pissed  Pissed

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-02-01 19:08:28 and read 11654 times.

Half the time the FAs tell the people to pull down the window shades to watch a movie, and very few people sit and stare out the window.
In the end it will be economics and not window size.


Very true. I guess the same people who have always denied the A320's wider cabin advantage will most likely regard the larger window size of the B787 as a major selling point...  Wink/being sarcastic


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-02-02 00:48:04 and read 11428 times.

Like I said above it is old news. Here is the Bloomberg release from December :

Dec. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Star Alliance, the world's biggest
airline grouping, said it will ``study'' the suitableness of the
A350 aircraft planned by Airbus SAS, a move that may bring 15
potential buyers to the world's largest planemaker as it develops
a model to compete with Boeing Co.'s future 7E7 airliner.
``We identified two new aircraft, the 7E7 and Airbus A350, as
the next topic for continued coordination in our group,'' Jaan
Albrecht, the chief executive officer of the 15-airline group,
said at a press conference in Bangkok today.
The seven-year-old Star Alliance, with 2,418 aircraft among
its member airlines, flies 353.2 million passengers to 133
countries every year. The Frankfurt-based group, which started
joint aircraft purchases from Airbus and Boeing in April 2003,
wants to set common employee-training standards, cut maintenance
costs and enhance the resale value of aircraft.
Deutsche Lufthansa AG and Air Canada were among Star Alliance
members saying in February that they would negotiate with Boeing
for joint purchases of the 7E7. Some members have also tried to
cut costs by jointly purchasing fuel, and a year ago the alliance
formed a company to buy fuel together, which it said may help
airlines save ``hundreds of millions of dollars'' a year.
Star also counts Chicago-based UAL Corp.'s United Airlines,
the world's second-largest carrier, and Singapore Airlines Ltd.,
Asia's most profitable carrier, as members as well as Asiana
Airlines Inc., Air New Zealand and Thai Airways International Pcl.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: YVR99
Posted 2005-02-02 01:03:41 and read 11381 times.

OK Columba, the press release from Star does tell us that Star members will negotiate together but it does not give us any details as to possible order sizes, when orders will be placed or when deliveries will occur.
So, this post is not entirely old news and while you may have a gift for extrapolating these conclusions from the sparse release you posted, spare the rest of us, mental pedestrians that we are, the opportunity to discuss the particulars of ACs future order if we choose to do so.

Thanks,

YVR99

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Olympus69
Posted 2005-02-02 02:07:52 and read 11293 times.

I am not sure about A350 though, but window size might be one of many factors on decision by AC if they are relying on passengers' preference.

If windows were important Bombardier would not have delivered their 1,000th CRJ-100/200 recently.  Smile

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2005-02-02 02:16:42 and read 11259 times.

True. But the A320 family and the A330 are also known for high level performance. And not every Boeing derivative has reached highest performance levels.

If you're referring to the 767-400ER, it did meet its design expectations. It was designed specifically to replace the DC-10 for CO and the L-1011 for DL, which it has done perfectly. Boeing still offers it because it doesn't cost them anything to do so (same line as other 767s).

The 737NG actually has a higher overall cargo volume, but I believe the A320 can handle larger containers (and of course the cargo door of the 737 is the worst design in history).

Also, I never said Airbuses couldn't perform well.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-02 07:12:20 and read 11108 times.

What it will come down to for AC is two things:

1) Price - Will Boeing and Airbus be able to offer the best price to AC.

2) Cost Savings - Will the 787 meet all its design expectations and provide AC with millions of dollars in savings over its expected 25 years of service in the fleet? Will the A350 provide similar cost savings, or is it a ploy by Airbus to design a derivative of the A330 to provide just enough cost savings so that it will make no sense for Airbus operators to switch to Boeing, and simply order the A350?


The impression I'm getting is that Boeing is designing a fantastic aircraft (787) while being lazy when it comes to the 747-ADV, while Airbus is designing another fantastic aircraft (A380) while being lazy by only designing a derivative of the A330.

Thoughts?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Hjulicher
Posted 2005-02-02 07:21:33 and read 11098 times.

I think that maybe the Boeing is more viable because of the commanality the pilots using those planes will have. They are replacing Boeing's not Airbus', so the chance that the 7E7 is chosen might be higher. Also, the weaker dollar may make it better for us American's to barter with the Canadians. Plus, I don't see how passneger loads can be so high in Canada. Canada does not have very many people, and thus not many will be traveling to Canada directly. I think that the 7E7 is better because it will be able to serve more efficiently and economically. Plus it's a leap in the forward direction for the development of aircraft. For the past 50 years, airplanes have looked the same. Boeing has made a leap streamlining a product that needed a new look. The 7E7 is a good choince. BTW, I haven't yet found any pictures of information of the A350. Boeing is a head of Airbus in this respect. Maybe the 7E7 will be available sooner.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-02 07:26:09 and read 11092 times.

The only pic I've seen of the A350 was an A330 with A350 written on the side. Airbus has said that it would not go into service until 2009 or 2010 or so.

AC needs a high load aircraft for its Asian routes as well as long range medium sized planes (787 or 350).

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Iwok
Posted 2005-02-02 09:46:41 and read 11007 times.

The 737-200 and the 747-400 did not have fleet commonality, unlike the A320 and A330.

Again, once a fleet reaches about 35 aircraft commonality is not a significant factor.

I don't know, but I have a feeling AC will go for the 787 rather than A350 for their 767 replacement. I do believe that AC will also order the A346 as well as a couple more A345s.


AC7E7
Interesting information you provide. What source of information do you have on this? I would like to check it out. Southwest has a boat load of 737's and they claim to gain huge cost savings. Is this because of commonality?

BTW, I have serious doubts about the A350. It is basically an upgraded A330. This is the same stratagy that B pursued with the 747X derivatives, so see if they could steal some sales away from the A380. Most airlines will stick with the 787 due to its revolutionary design. I suspect that A will have to come up with a true 787 fighter, in the same manner that B will have to come up with a tru A380 fighter in order to garner significant sales. There is a good chance that the A350 will never fly.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-02-02 11:42:41 and read 10926 times.

OK Columba, the press release from Star does tell us that Star members will negotiate together but it does not give us any details as to possible order sizes, when orders will be placed or when deliveries will occur.
So, this post is not entirely old news and while you may have a gift for extrapolating these conclusions from the sparse release you posted, spare the rest of us, mental pedestrians that we are, the opportunity to discuss the particulars of ACs future order if we choose to do so.

Thanks,

YVR99

Well first of all, I said nothing else as that Air Canada/Star Alliance is interested in either the A350 or the 787 is old news.
You don´t need to be so harsh, you can make your point in amore friendly way. BTW what the order will be like can nobody here predict or even how much planes will be ordered or the same thing will be happen with the joint purchase of the Star Alliance regional jet...... Everything is still a rumor and based on speculations of the various members here. But that is a nice thing and I didn´t want end all of these speculations or discussions on these thread.
I just said we already had a discussion similar to this one before.
We will see in a few months or maybe even years how this all turns out.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-02-02 12:09:40 and read 10896 times.

After reading reply #83, it hit me that the Star Alliance are planning a combined order for either the B787 or A350, could this proposed 50 aircraft order be part of the Star plan?

Take the 320 for example. Even though the cabin is around only 4 inches wider then the 737 it is very noticable from a passengers point of view When I flew an NZ A320 in December last year, I never noticed the wider fuselage. To me it was the same size as the B733. It was the first time that I have ever flowen on an Airbus or even an A320 compared to the many times I have flowen on the B733.

A340's are much quieter to fly in then 777's, you haven't got the continuous moan from the engines in your ears for 12 hours etc etc... I'm sure that non aviation people would rather prefer to hear the engines moaning sound, instead of not hearing the engine

If past history is any indication, they will get a better deal from Airbus then Boeing. I wonder why.


[Edited 2005-02-02 12:10:59]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Trent900
Posted 2005-02-02 12:58:37 and read 10859 times.

777ER,

Passengers flying with EasyJet over here have commented on how more comfortable their new 319's are compared with the 737-700's. Wider isle and a bit more leg-room (which is always a nice thing to have).

Airbus do not overprice their products. Thats why they give a better deal. Hopefully Boeing has now figured this out and will fight hard to win this order. To me the 7E7 does look like a better product thn the 350

T.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-02 15:45:39 and read 10755 times.

Regarding post 129, I think AC7E7 is right, but it comes down to available resources at both Airbus and Boeing. "Being lazy" with refurbishing older products is the result of ongoing new programs.
From the articles I've read it appears that AC is not going to put the new plane into service until at least 2010, which leaves the door open for both manufacturers.

While it's true that Canada's population is 1/10th that of the USA, there are many markets completely underserved or not served at all. I think 50 airplanes makes sense. For example, to better serve Montreal's huge Lebanese community, AC attempted to launch Montreal-Beirut only to have the US authorities close that option because of "security concerns". The flights were oversold as soon as seats were available for sale but everything was cancelled and rebooked with LH via FRA. Terrible!

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: SNATH
Posted 2005-02-02 16:14:04 and read 10718 times.

Take the 320 for example. Even though the cabin is around only 4 inches wider then the 737 it is very noticable from a passengers point of view

I've flown on a LH B737 and an A319 within three days and on a UA B737 and a A320 the same day. I never notice any difference in the seat widths between them.

Tony

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-02-02 18:24:07 and read 10615 times.

I'm sure that non aviation people would rather prefer to hear the engines moaning sound, instead of not hearing the engine

But one CAN hear the engines on the A340…the sound is just quieter. And I doubt that most pax care about that “engine safety issue” at all. Only a minority of travellers is afraid of flying…  Insane



I wonder why.

Why?



Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-02 18:53:08 and read 10564 times.

Interesting information you provide. What source of information do you have on this? I would like to check it out. Southwest has a boat load of 737's and they claim to gain huge cost savings. Is this because of commonality?

This is true, Southwest does save alot of money by flying a single aircraft family. However, AC is not limited to the domestic market and needs an aircraft that can make the airline money to destinations such as Rome, Beriut, etc. Though of course there are extra costs to adding a different aircraft type to the mix, if the fleet is large enough, those costs are minimal. Though I don't have exact numbers, I can give you examples.

Air Canada just recently retired their fleet of 3 B747-400 Combis. Though they were a nice aircraft making lots of $$$ to Frankfurt, the costs associated with maintaining only 3 aircraft did not help the bottom line. AC has now retired those aircraft and redeployed more A330s and B767s to Frankfurt. Those aircraft types are more numerous in number and will make more money thanks to the reduction in training employees required to operate and operate on the 747-400. It will be interesting in the coming months to see if AC will simply get rid of their Airbus widebody fleet in favour of a Boeing widebodies (777). Because of their few numbers (A330/A340) perhaps we will see Boeing offer AC a deal on 777s if they order the 787. AC would be left with an Embraer regional fleet (175/190), an Airbus domestic fleet (A319/320/321) and a Boeing widebody fleet (787/777). Who the hell knows. I'm just shooting out ideas here.

Though most of AC's fleet is Airbus-made, the 767 fleet is large enough where the costs associated to operating and maintaining the fleet is minimal.

Another example would be United Airlines. They operate both a large A32X fleet and B737-300/500 fleet. Many would argue that they should rationalize and focus on the Airbus type and retire the Boeings. There are many factors associated with why they are keeping both including lease rates, but the fact of the matter is, the airline has the equipment, trained maintenance staff, etc. to operate such a large fleet. If the Boeing fleet of 737s only numbered say, 18 units, the costs associated with operating the fleet type would negatively affect the bottom line more than it would a larger fleet.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-02 19:32:16 and read 10507 times.

I highly doubt AC will order 777s. They passed on them once before in 1994-1995 and because of that it's unlikely we'll ever see a 777 in AC colours. Relations are still sour with Boeing.
The reason Milton mentions both aircraft in the press article is simply to stir up competition between B and A so that AC gets the best price. I think it's a foregone deal - we'll be seeing AC A350s everywhere starting in 2010.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-02 19:42:29 and read 10489 times.

I wouldn't be too sure. If AC is going to get A350s, we will likely see them get rid of their A330s. It is up to Boeing to improve relations between the two companies. If they offer AC a great deal, I guarantee they will go for it. I've seen nothing about the A350 so far. Though the 787 has not been built, at least we know all its specs, what its expectaions are etc. We know nothing about the A350. If AC is going to make a decisions this year, Airbus better have more to offer than simply an A330 with 787 engines.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Dynkrisolo
Posted 2005-02-02 19:44:09 and read 10476 times.


I've flown on a LH B737 and an A319 within three days and on a UA B737 and a A320 the same day. I never notice any difference in the seat widths between them.


It's not the seat widths that you should pay attention to. AFAIK, most 32x operators opt for a wider aisle instead of wider seats. When the FAs are serving drinks on the 32x, you can squeeze past the service carts. You can't on the 737.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-02 20:25:23 and read 10421 times.

No need for AC to get rid of the A330s- it's all the same in terms of training, costs, parts etc. Those planes are suited for the Atlantic and they may very well keep just 8 for years to come. In fact, the 340-300s are sometimes the problem. Often, due to weight restrictions, AC's long-haul 340s have to fly with empty seats because of too much cargo. In some markets the 340 is the wrong aircraft and the 350/787 would be an ideal replacement. The A340HGW would be another option.

As for how Boeing negociates, see this paragraph from today's Wichita Eagle Newspaper:

"Boeing likely to post lower profits: Higher costs and competition from Airbus are expected to lead to the company's first decline since 2003.
The Wichita Eagle (KS)
(Wednesday, February 2, 2005, p. B4) BY DarrellL Hassler, Bloomberg News"

"The results have a lot to do with the "unpleasant" way Boeing tries to sell aircraft, said Stuart Klaskin, a consultant for Klaskin, Kushner & Co. in Coral Gables, Fla., who represents aircraft buyers in negotiations with Boeing.

Boeing's sales people have trouble competing against Airbus because they aren't allowed to make as many decisions without approval from other executives in the company, Klaskin said.

"Boeing is getting creamed," said Klaskin. "Boeing continues not to do themselves any good with the way they price, sell and generally handle the customer sales process overall."

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Ken777
Posted 2005-02-02 21:45:44 and read 10338 times.

Watch the exchange rate. The dollar keeps falling and the Euro (and Canadian Dollar) keep climbing. Add to that the difference in list prices for the 787 and 350 and Airbus faces a very difficult challenge, unless they sell them at half price to get the order. The fall in the dollar is going to hurt Airbus more than Boeing and the 787 may well be significantly cheaper.

My bet is that the 787 will be picked with exchange rate protection included in the deal.

As to the timing of the order, probably when AC considers that they are at the maximum advantage in terms of locking in the exchange rate.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Airbusfanyyz
Posted 2005-02-02 21:55:29 and read 10317 times.

AC is gearing up for major pushes into South Asia, Orient, and South America especially out of their main hub, YYZ.
I can't image the entire 50 plane order will be either one of the 350 or 787, they also need more 345s or 346s if they want to serve places like DXB, BOM etc.
But maybe we'll get a new livery with the 350 or 787!  Big grin

Cheers,
Kaz

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-02-02 22:02:19 and read 10293 times.

AC1, very astute observations. Boeing is seen as a less flexible negotiator. Again, I refer to Milton's book, and I have heard again from the recent negotiations that Airbus is being extremely aggressive. Boeing has a rigid negotiating posture, and AC has no particular political considerations to honor in choosing between A and B.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AirbusfanYYZ
Posted 2005-02-02 22:38:45 and read 10223 times.

Sebring since you're Canadian, it is honour not honor. Big grin

Cheers,
Kaz

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-02 22:50:02 and read 10198 times.

Perhaps Boeing is becoming aware that since they are pegging the future of their commercial airplane division on the 787 they will be willing to negotiate better terms.

Is Boeing really going to sit around and let a huge order like this get away from them? Of all the U.S. carriers, only Continental has ordered the plane, and not in great numbers. The U.S. industry is not going to be recovering anytime soon. Boeing needs this order.

Boeing may have dropped to second place, however it isn't like Boeing is not selling aircraft, obviously they must be giving various airlines pretty good deals. I think Boeing is going to bend as much as Airbus on this deal. Will AC bite, unknown.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Tripple7
Posted 2005-02-02 23:26:33 and read 10146 times.

"Watch the exchange rate. The dollar keeps falling and the Euro (and Canadian Dollar) keep climbing. Add to that the difference in list prices for the 787 and 350 and Airbus faces a very difficult challenge, unless they sell them at half price to get the order. The fall in the dollar is going to hurt Airbus more than Boeing and the 787 may well be significantly cheaper"


Exchange rates are an important determination factor, but buying airplanes involves a lot of risk concerning exchange rate fluctuations. In the long term major fluctuations can occur. If AC would buy 787´s today, but will actually pay for them upon delivery the dollar exchange rate might have increased considerably upon the Canadian Dollar. Also bear in mind that producing aircraft is a global business. Parts are produced all over the world and paid in many currencies (however mostly dollar is preferred). Airbus also uses the dollar for a big deal for their payments/billing, so faces quite the same market circumstances as Boeing with respect to exchange rates. It is not as easy as it sounds.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AirbusCanada
Posted 2005-02-03 01:17:23 and read 10050 times.

"For the past 50 years, airplanes have looked the same. Boeing has made a leap streamlining a product that needed a new look. The 7E7 is a good choince. BTW, I haven't yet found any pictures of information of the A350. Boeing is a head of Airbus in this respect. Maybe the 7E7 will be available sooner."

if u want unconventional looking aircraft, i think 380/747 is ur only option.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: SunriseValley
Posted 2005-02-03 01:23:26 and read 10040 times.

I tried to point out the implications of the major change in exchange rates in my recent posting warning of the effect of FX on the dynamics of the market place.
To recap, the $US now favours B over A by about 50% in just 3-years. A change of this magnitude cannot be brushed off. I can't see that A is in any position to increase discounts to offset the unfavourable exchange rate to maintain a sales edge over B. They both have very expensive development programs facing them for new designs for which they must generate cash. Improvements in gross margin has to be a necessity for both companies.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-02-03 01:42:31 and read 10003 times.

AirbusCanada:

This has them both beat:

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Lt-AWACS
Posted 2005-02-03 02:07:08 and read 9965 times.

OFFTOPIC
-"As well, Canada never withdrew from the Iraq war because we never participated."-

Well to be truly honest Canada did play in the war, as I flew on 16 combat sorties over Iraq with Canadian Air Force members on board. The E-3, due to its NORAD mission has about 40 Co-Manning Canadians in the Wing. They were allowed to "play" in Iraq as were several Canadian exchange officers in the Army and Navy. Of course this might be a bit of splitting hairs, but I thought I'd mention it, since the articles were short-lived in various Canadian papers.

ONTOPIC-

How much of the 7E7 is built in Canada, and will(can) Boeing use these jobs as a selling point for the aircraft? Just curious.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, I'd like to supersize that with a diet coke

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-03 03:02:37 and read 9905 times.

Well to be truly honest Canada did play in the war, as I flew on 16 combat sorties over Iraq with Canadian Air Force members on board. The E-3, due to its NORAD mission has about 40 Co-Manning Canadians in the Wing. They were allowed to "play" in Iraq as were several Canadian exchange officers in the Army and Navy. Of course this might be a bit of splitting hairs, but I thought I'd mention it, since the articles were short-lived in various Canadian papers.

Don't worry, I am well aware of their participation and I believe our armed forces as a whole should have participated more in one way or another in Iraq. Many Canadians like to push such details about the Iraq war aside. I would like to shake your hand.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AirbusfanYYZ
Posted 2005-02-03 03:14:51 and read 9884 times.

AC7E7,
Participated and had our sons and daughters die for a personal vendetta between the Bush family and Saddam?!
Well maybe you should have gone over too and located those phantom WMDs... hmph!

Kaz

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: PennPal
Posted 2005-02-03 03:44:47 and read 9852 times.

Lt.AWACS:

Why should it matter "how much of the 7E7 is built in Canada..."??? How many Airbus products are made there??? Why isn't that a factor when AC buys from Europe???

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Lt-AWACS
Posted 2005-02-03 04:06:57 and read 9812 times.

It does matter Pennpal, but the A350 is more of a "paper airplane" now than the 7E7, and if I am not mistaken, most the labour division of the 7E7 has been decided.

If data is available on the 350 post it as well. There is much of the A380 to be built in the USA. I am curious if Boeing, or US trade reps will use Jobs as a bargining chip.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Veni, Vidi, Bibi

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Milan320
Posted 2005-02-03 04:14:22 and read 9800 times.

AC1: I highly doubt AC will order 777s. They passed on them once before in 1994-1995 and because of that it's unlikely we'll ever see a 777 in AC colours. Relations are still sour with Boeing.
The reason Milton mentions both aircraft in the press article is simply to stir up competition between B and A so that AC gets the best price. I think it's a foregone deal - we'll be seeing AC A350s everywhere starting in 2010.


Very good point AC1, and for those who haven't read Milton's book, I highly recommend it. Milton is bashed all the time in the media, but I have to say, after reading his book, I do admire the guy. He's won me over somewhat.
And as AC1 says, Milton is shrewd, and who knows, he might be floating the idea of buying the 787 just to make Airbus nervous. Either way, it's not as clear cut as we'd like to believe with Milton or AC. Either way, I'd love to be the proverbial fly on the wall when the negotiations start.

/Milan320

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-03 04:14:31 and read 9799 times.

Kaz,

Let me remind you that "our sons and daughters" are professional soldiers who have volunteered to be in the military. They are offered a great education with great employment possibilities when their service is over. They are required to go into combat when they are called upon. That is the trade-off when you're employed by the military.

As for those "phantom" WMD.....

1) Let us not forget that he has gased his own people as well as Iranian villages in the past.
2) The UN was not doing its job. Kofi Annan's own son was profiting from the Oil-For-Food program along with Saddam Hussein. You want corruption, there it is. Nothing was going to change, and I congratulate the United States for backing up past UN resolutions and doing something about Saddam. The 60% election turnout by the Iraqi people goes to show you that these people are exercising their new rights to vote and determine their own destiny, despite the threat of terrorists blowing up the polling stations.

I would love to go on about this, however I have a feeling this thread is going to be put on ice, so let's get back to the topic at hand.  Smile

I am pushing for the 787. I'm sure the A350 will be a fine aircraft, however I have yet to see what this aircraft will be capable of (except for flying, of course). At least we know what the 787 will be capable of, and by judging from past performance, Boeing has always made an excellent product.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Milan320
Posted 2005-02-03 04:17:24 and read 9792 times.

Participated and had our sons and daughters die for a personal vendetta between the Bush family and Saddam?!
Well maybe you should have gone over too and located those phantom WMDs... hmph!


Very well said, Kaz!
/Milan320

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-03 04:19:02 and read 9788 times.

Very good point AC1, and for those who haven't read Milton's book, I highly recommend it. Milton is bashed all the time in the media, but I have to say, after reading his book, I do admire the guy. He's won me over somewhat.
And as AC1 says, Milton is shrewd, and who knows, he might be floating the idea of buying the 787 just to make Airbus nervous. Either way, it's not as clear cut as we'd like to believe with Milton or AC. Either way, I'd love to be the proverbial fly on the wall when the negotiations start.


I as well thought the book was fantastic. He may be floating the idea of buying the 787 to get a better deal from Airbus, but let's not forget that we haven't even seen the specs of the A350!!! We all know what the 787 will be capable of. All we know of the A350 is that it will be based on the A330. Big woop. All I see here is that Airbus will be making the A330 irrelevent. But I do have to agree with you, I wish I could be in the room when these negotiations come down to the wire.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-02-03 05:34:24 and read 9704 times.

AC1: I highly doubt AC will order 777s. They passed on them once before in 1994-1995 and because of that it's unlikely we'll ever see a 777 in AC colours. Relations are still sour with Boeing.


Relations with a manufacturer are never truly sour because there is always the next deal. Do you seriously believe Boeing isn't in this with both feet? Sure, just hand Airbus a $5 billion order, without even contesting it!!!

Seriously, this is a two-model competition as I stated earlier. AC wants a growth aircraft NOW, as in 2006, and a 767 replacement, starting in 2010 and carrying on well into the middle of the next decade. some of AC's 763s are pretty new - they won't go overnight.

NEITHER of the front end planes - the 777-300ER or the 380 MT A340-600 - existed when AC ordered the A333. In that sense, AC has not turned down the 777 as you state. They turned down variants which didn't do anything more for them than the 333. The 773-ER is a longer range plane, and it's available now. And the 380MT 346 fixes everything wrong with the 343 and 345. I guarantee you that if the 346HGW had been available a decade ago, AC would not operate 343s or 345s. That's why this competition is decidedly different. Both competitors have planes AC thinks are good, and both could make deliveries when AC wants them in 2006. As for the 787/350 competition, it will be driven the winner of the 773er vs 346HGW competition. It's going to be a total package deal. The surprising thing is that my source insists the AC evaluation team is pretty ambivalent about the 787/350 competition, considering both good planes. It's the value and convenience of the total package that will clinch this: price, financing, assistance at remarketing older aircraft, etc.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Dalecary
Posted 2005-02-03 05:49:48 and read 9688 times.

Sebring,

are you sure the 346HGW is available to AC in 2006??? When are EK to start receiving theirs? I would have thought AC could get their hands on 773ERs from early 2006. I still think the 345/772LR types are being evaluated, but I'm not denying the knowledge of your source. I have been told AC do want to fly ULH sectors that would severely test the range of the 773ER/346HGW.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sllevin
Posted 2005-02-03 06:37:53 and read 9660 times.

Southwest has a boat load of 737's and they claim to gain huge cost savings. Is this because of commonality?

Yes, but it also matter greatly for the route system Southwest has. In the Southwest system, most airplanes are operating numerous flights a day in and out of multiple cities. In addition, they don't operate stations where the same aircraft goes out and back only, say, once a day. So they leverage being able to throw in another aircraft and crew several steps down the chain when things go wonky.

For example, a given plane might fly SJC-BUR-LAS-HOU-BNA one day. If the plane gets hung up in BUR for some reason, they can easily have a different aircraft operate HOU-BNA to keep that flight on time while accomodating passengers on the now-late LAS-HOU aircraft -- thus limiting the impact to just the folks on that flight, and minimizing the "ripples."

Now, when you are talking about YVR-LHR, for example, that's all that aircraft may do (or, for example, it might fly YVR-LHR-YYZ while it's "mirror" flies YYZ-LHR-YVR). In one of the planes goes tech in Heathrow, it doesn't matter much that you've got another 30 in different airports around the world...since they aren't at Heathrow, they don't help you.  Smile

Steve

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: SNATH
Posted 2005-02-03 09:31:36 and read 9564 times.

When the FAs are serving drinks on the 32x, you can squeeze past the service carts. You can't on the 737.

And how does this improve my flying experience?

Tony

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2005-02-03 15:56:01 and read 9458 times.

I think AC really needs to know just how much commonality there is between the A350 and the A330/A340 planes AC now flies. If the commonality is less than what AC anticipates I wouldn't be surprised that AC buys an all 787-8 fleet.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-03 19:05:32 and read 9351 times.

- Sebring: "As for the 787/350 competition, it will be driven the winner of the 773er vs 346HGW competition."

I believe it to be the opposite: the winner of the 787/A350 competition will determine if AC purchases the 773 or 346HGW. Basically, if AC orders the 773 I believe they would have to retire the entire 330/340 line because they wouldn't need to have 2 fleet types (773 and 340/330) serving the same purpose. Retiring the 330/340s dosen't make good business sense seing as all the training and equipmment is in place. It would make more sense to order the 346HGW along with 358s and 359s. I'm impartial to either Airbus or Boeing, but as many have stated AC will probably order several variants of the aircraft they choose - so commonality will have some impact.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-03 20:02:01 and read 9300 times.

I believe it to be the opposite: the winner of the 787/A350 competition will determine if AC purchases the 773 or 346HGW. Basically, if AC orders the 773 I believe they would have to retire the entire 330/340 line because they wouldn't need to have 2 fleet types (773 and 340/330) serving the same purpose. Retiring the 330/340s dosen't make good business sense seing as all the training and equipmment is in place. It would make more sense to order the 346HGW along with 358s and 359s. I'm impartial to either Airbus or Boeing, but as many have stated AC will probably order several variants of the aircraft they choose - so commonality will have some impact.

Remember that the A330/A340 fleet is very small, and replacing that fleet with 777s can be done. I'll go half way with you though. I think we will see an order for more A340s, however they will end up going with the 787. If the A350 is simply a variant, AC might as well get rid of their A330 fleet as well if they order the A350.

As you stated, getting rid of the A330/A340 fleet "doesn't make good business sense." Ordering the A350 would also not make good business sense since the A350 would simply replace the A330. With the significant size of this order, commonality not play a big role in choosing the winning aircraft. The 767 fleet is large enough that commonality is not an issue. The same goes for this order; whether they choose the 787 or A350, it will be determined by Price and Cost savings over 767s.

I still think they will order more A340s, however they will choose the 787 for the 767 replacement.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-02-03 20:22:48 and read 9281 times.

Sorry, I stand by what I say. AC's analysis of the 787/350 is ambivalent. They can take either. And they like both front end planes, too. But what will determine the winner is price for the whole package, plus willingness to assist in moving the airline to an all Boeing widebody fleet, or a reconstructed all-Airbus widebody fleet. AC may have an investment in 343s, for example, but if they order the 346s, that's going to change the face of the fleet. AC does not want, as some here suggest, numerous variants. It has too many variants now for a 65-jet widebody fleet.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-03 20:25:15 and read 9274 times.

Well, it seems there are just too many options for AC at this point!

Just to throw in the wildcard, a source told me this week that AC is going to acquire 16 more 767s for summer operations.

Now that we have run this discussion into the ground, we'll all have to wait to find out.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-03 20:28:23 and read 9266 times.

Sorry, I stand by what I say. AC's analysis of the 787/350 is ambivalent. They can take either. And they like both front end planes, too. But what will determine the winner is price for the whole package, plus willingness to assist in moving the airline to an all Boeing widebody fleet, or a reconstructed all-Airbus widebody fleet. AC may have an investment in 343s, for example, but if they order the 346s, that's going to change the face of the fleet. AC does not want, as some here suggest, numerous variants. It has too many variants now for a 65-jet widebody fleet.

If the AC package requires "assistance" to move to an all-Boeing fleet, or re-worked Airbus fleet, if this information you provide is accurate, Sebring, I have to tell you.... I'm getting goosebumps! I'll be following your posts with great anticipation.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: PlaneSmart
Posted 2005-02-03 20:32:46 and read 9256 times.

I'm with you Sebring. It's the package, NOT the plane that will determine the AC order.

B can offer a 787/777 package with zero commonality. A can offer A34/35/36 with commonality to existing A33/34.

But it will still come down to the overall package. AC are astute negotiators. This will be a good test for B's new look marketing team. Do they have the same tools at their disposal and mandate to negotiate them as their counterparts at A?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: BigD
Posted 2005-02-03 20:40:25 and read 9243 times.

AC1,

How reliable is your source? I'd love to know where they're getting 16 767's from? For the past number of weeks, all similar posts on this topic have indicated that they're having considerable difficulty picking up used aircraft especially A340s but 767s as well...

In addition to the used aircraft acquisitions, how long do people think it'll take for AC to make an announcement on the long term revamping of the long haul fleet i.e. the 50 aircraft order?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-03 20:41:36 and read 9246 times.

What would do it for me would be an order for 8 A380-800s to be deployed on YVR-HKG, YVR-NRT, YYZ-LHR, YUL-CDG. What are the chances of tacking this on to the upcoming order? My guess, 10% chance.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC1
Posted 2005-02-03 21:16:38 and read 9197 times.

Big D: A very reliable source....but who knows? Things change quickly.

The 350/787 order will be announced "by the end of the year"

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2005-02-04 03:48:33 and read 9009 times.

What would do it for me would be an order for 8 A380-800s to be deployed on YVR-HKG, YVR-NRT, YYZ-LHR, YUL-CDG. What are the chances of tacking this on to the upcoming order? My guess, 10% chance.

...We can only dream.....  Smile

But there would be too much capacity.

-AC7E7

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-02-04 04:33:09 and read 8947 times.


Just to throw in the wildcard, a source told me this week that AC is going to acquire 16 more 767s for summer operations.


There are not enough pilots to work 16 more 767s this summer even if they exceeded Transport Canada regs. And ACPA has already rejected any notion of passenger wetleases.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: FLYYUL
Posted 2005-02-04 04:55:40 and read 8927 times.

16 767s?

A very exciting number indeed!

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Bmacleod
Posted 2005-02-05 20:10:43 and read 8719 times.

Wouldn't there be pressure from the the Martin government, trying ever harder to strengthen US-ties, toward AC for the 787?

[Edited 2005-02-05 20:13:20]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: AirCascadia
Posted 2005-02-13 19:18:55 and read 8211 times.

Any new news on this order or AC's aircraft leases to add for this coming summer season?

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: ChrisA330
Posted 2005-02-13 19:26:34 and read 8196 times.

So far one announcement of an A340-300 being added to the fleet next month. Apparently ex-Air Jamaica, MSN 048. It's an earlier build with shorter range, so I would expect this to do the ex-YVR Asia flights, as I don't think it has the range to do the ex-YYZ non stops.

http://www.ilfc.com/press/2005%20Air%20Canada.htm

[Edited 2005-02-13 19:27:05]

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Aseem
Posted 2005-02-13 19:30:17 and read 8163 times.

currently AC does YYZ-HKG and YYZ-DEL alternating between A343 and A345.
Are there any plans to induct more A345. I have traveled on one of these flights and I feel A345 with their more modern IFE are far more suitable.
rgds
Aseem

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Zvezda
Posted 2005-02-13 20:16:11 and read 8060 times.

Modern IFE can be fitted to an A340-300 just as easily as an A340-500. And, yes, AC is reportedly in the market to lease additional A340-500s.

Topic: RE: AC Will Announce 50-jet Order This Year 787/A350
Username: Aseem
Posted 2005-02-14 07:03:12 and read 7732 times.

And, yes, AC is reportedly in the market to lease additional A340-500s.

where are they getting them from? SQ or EK, I presume SQ is looking for a substitue. Situation shall be clearer once B777-200LR rolls out.
regds
Aseem


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