Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/1991424/

Topic: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Matt
Posted 2005-03-07 03:18:07 and read 26263 times.

Just heard on the news that TS had a problem with one of its A310 on its way from VRA to YQB. Looks like several planes were temporarily grounded this weekend. That must have thrown a wrench in TS's operations. Any details from TS insiders? Any news on how they're catching up?

Here's a link to the story: http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/06/transat050306.html

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2005-03-07 05:16:36 and read 25972 times.

Heads up FLL spotters,

Zoom has their 767-300 to fill for the Air Transat A310. This is terrible news with Air Transat and their A310's. I guess they are probably going to go ahead with those rumours and switch to boeing aircraft.

Regards,

BWIA330

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-03-07 05:50:10 and read 25924 times.

Much more disturbing is the rumor going around that US authorities refused the flight permission to land in the US. The plane was 30 minutes outbound from Havana heading northward, and would have been closer to a US airport than Havana. What we don't know is the gravity of the rudder problem. If this was a severe problem, I would expect the international community to have major concerns with this incident.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2005-03-07 06:10:33 and read 25894 times.

Yeah. I am very curious on how severe the rudder problem was. I mean if it was slightly falling off, then I would assume that that is something serious.

Regards,

BWIA330

No wonder I saw them inspecing a 2 of TS A310 rudders yesturday in YYZ. Two A310's were being inspected yesturday while I was at work.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Jc2354
Posted 2005-03-07 06:37:33 and read 25850 times.

I know there was a diversion early on Sunday. An A310, from Punta Cana diverted to Norfolk. Don't remember the flight number or destination. It was on FlyteComm, but I can't find it anywhere now.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Squad55
Posted 2005-03-07 06:49:50 and read 25821 times.

Could this be related to the AA A300 rudder problem? Is the 300 / 310 rudder similar?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Matt
Posted 2005-03-07 12:47:32 and read 25675 times.

They seem to be back on track schedule wise. YYZ had a lot of delays yesterday, and today YUL has slight delays. Their A310 made it to YHZ for its Monday through Wednesday flights.

So Zoom helped out? Didn't they need that plane for their own flights?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Yhz78
Posted 2005-03-07 14:06:03 and read 25607 times.

TS and Z4 fly a lot of similar routes, is it possible that they just had open seats to fill? Or did they actually wet lease them a plane for a few days?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2005-03-07 17:16:36 and read 25498 times.

Given that the aircraft are back in service, presumably this was a minor problem.

I seem to remember an incident where Concorde lost part of a rudder.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Matt
Posted 2005-03-07 17:39:33 and read 25416 times.

Link to the Air Transat press release:

http://www.transat.com/en/media_centre/2.0.media.centre.asp?id=870

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lindy
Posted 2005-03-07 17:45:12 and read 25380 times.

I saw yesterday Air Transat A310 flying south over Wash DC. I even took picture of it  Smile
DCA gets boring at times, and then people start doing contrail shots  Smile
Picture of Air Transat A310 was taken around 4:20pm
http://home.comcast.net/~maxkeshani/dca4.jpg

Rafal

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-07 18:09:51 and read 25320 times.

"Given that the aircraft are back in service, presumably this was a minor problem."

This is NOT a minor incident! Far from it. For God sake, the entire rudder assembly almost detached from the fuselage. WHEN is Tranpsort Canada going to wake up and get its act together re industry watchdog, and execute the functions and duties they are supposed to in regards to pax and crew safety. I don't know if this particular A310 was ex-LH, but it should not be a factor re this incident. It's not about age, it's all about proper and regulated maintenance practices and procedures which bloody well should be constantly monitored by M.O.T. After all, Air Canada, for example, has numerous B767 aircraft much older than the TSA310's flying, and I don't see their rudder assembly's detaching or semi-detaching.

And before anyone starts singing the proverbial praises about Canada's wonderful civil air safety infrastructure, remember that we're talking about a Canadian Government body that allowed Nationair Canada to operate under
the most atrocious and unprofessional internal conditions which directly led to the Jeddah disaster of 1990, not to mention too many near incidents with Nationair revenue flights. Nationair was a carrier which should have had it's Goddamned license pulled LONG before it closed shop, for too many reasons to go into here. Transport Canada was absolutely negligent in allowing this carrier to operate. Period. Who's running the show in Ottawa, for God sake?

Why is it that almost every Canadian registered aircraft incident or near incident nearly always points back towards Quebec maintenance base operations and procedures? And I won't even get started with Michel LeBlanc and Jetsgo ops.

This Air Transat incident should be a huge wake up call for M.O.T. It should also be a huge wake up call for the industry and the revenue generating pax. TS's press release is all roses - everything back to normal, as one would expect from any carrier with an incident this serious, the timing of which is horrible for TS, given the just announced class action lawsuite settlement with the group of Pax from TS236.

If, and I repeat, IF, Air Transat is negligent in safety/maintenance ops, then we should be counting on our Federal governing body to step in and execute procedures that will ensure TS is adhering to said implemented Canadian civil avaition maintenance guidelines. In my opinion, M.O.T should be thinking of suspending TS's ops certificate, lock down the fleet and go over their aircraft and maitenance ops with a fine tooth comb. There is obviously something seriously amiss here.

What is it going to take to bring Canada back to the level re civil aviation safety standards? Another TS236 near miss? Another Nationair Jeddah?
And when are the Canadian travelling public going to be non-complacent?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2005-03-07 18:30:54 and read 25243 times.

Not only Air Transat, but Jetsgo as well. On friday, apparently a flight to winnipeg on the Md-83 returned to the gate in yyz after it started it takeoff roll and the engine blew up. Fuel was leaking all on the side of the aircraft and all over the tarmac. Now if one little spark had hit that trail of jet fuel, that plane would have been history. Transport Canada is lacking on their duties.

Regards,

BWIA330

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Sebring
Posted 2005-03-07 18:45:45 and read 25201 times.

Why is it that almost every Canadian registered aircraft incident or near incident nearly always points back towards Quebec maintenance base operations and procedures? And I won't even get started with Michel LeBlanc and Jetsgo ops.


You are aware that Air Canada has its largest maintenance base in Quebec. On the one hand you compliment the state of its older aircraft, then you slag Quebec-based carrier maintenance. Right now, three of the countries' five largest airlines happen to be based in Quebec. Canjet is based in Halifax, but it is also the smallest. Westjet is based in Calgary, and has been able to buy a lot of new aircraft. But nobody has a monopoly on trouble. The issue of lax MOT oversight is a valid subject of debate, but not one that should be considered through a prism of regionalism or prejudice.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-07 18:55:47 and read 25160 times.

BWIA330, relax, TS should not replace their A310's with Boeings because of this incident. What if they get Boeings and they have an incident with them? Go back to L1011's? Oh wait, they've had incidents too!

Canadi>nBoy, I believe (and hope) that you are overreacting. Transat did the right thing by temporarily grounding the A310's while inspections with the help of Transport Canada were done on the rudders. Every airline has incidents, and it is far too early to point the fingers at Transat's maintenance because of this rudder problem. This A310 is still in old colours, which leads me to believe it was due for heavy maintenance in the next little while, so perhaps it hadn't been inspected for a while.

What really bugs me is that American ATC did not allow the aircraft to land in the USA, and it had to fly further to Cuba, which not only puts the aircraft in greater risk due to longer flight time, plus far inferior conditions in which to lodge passengers, and do maintenance on the aircraft.

Anyways, I have complete faith in Air Transat. Their complaints are down, their delays are way down, they seem to have put a lot of emphasis on a good operation. But, let's see a pic of this aircraft, just for the sake of interest ......

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: YUL332LX
Posted 2005-03-07 18:56:25 and read 25148 times.

Quoting Canadi>nBoy (reply 11):
Why is it that almost every Canadian registered aircraft incident or near incident nearly always points back towards Quebec maintenance base operations and procedures? And I won't even get started with Michel LeBlanc and Jetsgo ops


...because most maintenance bases are located in Quebec perhaps?  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-07 18:58:28 and read 25135 times.

An edit to my post:

Apparently the crew did not understand the severity of the condition, and chose to return to Cuba, since they had maintenance there.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Orion737
Posted 2005-03-07 19:01:25 and read 25119 times.

Air Transat seems to be in the news regularly. First the 330 and now the 310. I think I will take Air Canade next time!

For a relativley small airline, they do have their share of incidents.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2005-03-07 19:07:02 and read 25093 times.

I didnt mean it like that Captaingomes. And who are you telling to relax. LOL people get so worked up in here. But anyways, that damage looks very serious to me. Who took the pic and where is the plane right now?

Regards,

BWIA330

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: IslandHopperCO
Posted 2005-03-07 19:16:28 and read 25067 times.

Yikes!!! Pardon my ignorance of the physics of flight, but can a plane actually fly and be controlled in that condition? Obviously so...I'm amazed.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-07 19:17:30 and read 25067 times.

I'm just saying to relax because of this:


Quoting BWIA330 (reply 1):
I guess they are probably going to go ahead with those rumours and switch to boeing aircraft.

Regards,

BWIA330


I wasn't worked up, its those who wont fly TS because of an incident that are worked up, or who suggest switching aircraft manufacturers because of an incident.  Wink Let's face it, this made the news primarily because Transat made the correct move by grounding the a/c temporarily. This is the right thing to do, but it gets noticed.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2005-03-07 19:31:25 and read 25026 times.

I do believe air transat did the right thing. Atleast they have the balls to report things to transport Canada unlike Jetsgo. They are actually my favourite charter airline and I fly with them atleast 2 times a year. But there has been many rumours of them swtiching to an all boeing fleet because they got a better deal.

Regards,

BWIA330

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: YUL332LX
Posted 2005-03-07 19:36:48 and read 25007 times.

Quoting BWIA330 (reply 21):
But there has been many rumours of them swtiching to an all boeing fleet because they got a better deal.


A better deal from whom? Boeing? Aircraft lessors?

Doesn't really make sense...

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-07 19:44:30 and read 24994 times.

BWIA, are you still with Jetsgo? I hope things are going well there with you, regardless of whether they are perfect or not, it must be an experience to be there.

By the way, I've heard about TS possibly switching to Boeings. My belief is that they were waiting for the class action lawsuit to be settled, and given that insurance picked up the tab, the pile of cash they are sitting on will be used for something soon. An aircraft order is inevitable in my opinion, and I wouldn't be shocked to see 787's join the fleet at some point. Either that, or A350's.

Cheers, Nuno

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Cessnapimp
Posted 2005-03-07 19:51:39 and read 24938 times.

My dad said Boeings are better 'cause their tails stay on...

...my doctor said I wouldn't have so many nosebleeds if I kept my finger out of there

-Ralf Wiggum

Just came back from a LAS turn out of YUL and heard of this... I think it's pretty bad. Rudder gone? Hello? Like... umm... yeah...

Off to bed...

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Jc2354
Posted 2005-03-07 19:52:07 and read 24936 times.

Why did American ATC not allow them to land in the US?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lymanm
Posted 2005-03-07 19:59:14 and read 24904 times.

My question is, why/what grounds did the FAA refuse landing to the TS flight? Had they not declared an emergency?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-07 20:03:40 and read 24884 times.

I think it's just a rumour about US ATC. The crew might not have realized the severity of the situation and opted to return to Cuba. Thus, I doubt they declared an emergency, as they would have been allowed to land in the U S of A

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Matt
Posted 2005-03-07 20:25:26 and read 24803 times.

Whoa! Let's not compare TS with NX (Nationair)! I worked as an f/a for NX and let me tell you that there is no comparison to be made with TS. NX did not care at all about maintenance. Their planes were in awful shape, the incidents were too numerous to count, and the delays innumerable.

I must, however, admit that the tail looks pretty bad on that picture!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Manu
Posted 2005-03-07 20:29:55 and read 24789 times.

Wow, I can't believe it lost virtually all of its rudder. Luckily it sheered off a long time after departure and didn't deflect the air in a strange way to put the flight characteristics in chaos.

There have been a lot of incidents with Canadian airlines recently. Considering the only two modern aircraft to have ever run out of fuel midflight have both been Canadian. Mind you, they both landed safely, despite the one running an ETOPS route.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2005-03-07 20:33:14 and read 24781 times.

Hey,

Yeah im still with Jetsgo. I just wish that we would get rid of our aging fleet and get modern aircraft such as A320's or 73G's.

Regards,

BWIA330

[Edited 2005-03-07 20:36:26]

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Tomys
Posted 2005-03-07 20:40:38 and read 24741 times.

This story somewhat worries me  frown 

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Rootsgirl
Posted 2005-03-07 20:57:01 and read 24709 times.

Firstly, it has to be a rumor that the US denied them landing. Imagine the legal reprecussions if this was true or resulted in a fatality. I just cannot see this is factual. Maybe Transat elected to return to Cuba.

I agree with Canadian Boy...l am sick of MOT and the Canadian Regulators, they may sit there all quiet in the cushy government roles, however that is where the buck stops. How typically '' Canadian'' to be a fence sitter. They need to up the anti on Canadian regs and what the carriers are allowed to get away with from duty days to maintenance. Even 5G scares me at times with all the MELs...if it is MEL then darn well fix it because it is MEL for a reason!

They are all finger painting pretty picutres but at whose expense? The fact that Capt Piche was made a hero and the Transat incident was nicely buried said so much about the way things work here in Canada. And no disrespect to anyone who works for Transat, Jetsgo, even Skyservice, but....due to the lax regs, it is a matter of time of one of our carrers have a fatality more severe than the Azores or the Jetsgo incident.

I am under the impression that the Transat A-310 in question underwent an A check on March 1st, therefore, could it be a fault in the A-310? There have been questions regarding this since the incident with the AA 310 in Queens.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: BWIA330
Posted 2005-03-07 21:11:54 and read 24648 times.

Agree with you 100% Rootsgirl,

It is true. Transport Canada and the rest of the government is not stepping up to the plate to make sure that things are safe. As for this new incident with TS. It must be an A300, A310 rudder problem. As rootsgirl said, this was in speculation with the AA A300 crash in NY.

Regards,

BWIA330

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2005-03-07 21:35:57 and read 24526 times.

First point is that the AA A300 rudder failed after the ultimate load was exceeded due to repeated rudder reversals. Ithink that the whole AA A300 and indeed all of the type discussion is a red herring.

There seem to be traces of rust on the rudder?. This I do not understand as I understood that the rudder was composite. There is also rust? on the second bracket from the top.

I am surprised that the TS A310 fleet is flying again so soon.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Orion737
Posted 2005-03-07 22:00:24 and read 24296 times.

A word for Air Tranast, bring back the Tristar. Them L1011 were built to last!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2005-03-07 22:07:02 and read 24250 times.

Unfortuneately the Tristar is probably long gone.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Beechnut
Posted 2005-03-07 22:21:11 and read 24129 times.

The AA Queens crash and this AT incident are completely different.

The rudder did NOT fail in the Queens crash. The entire vertical stabilizer assembly snapped off dut to excessive aerodynamic loads, the official cause of which was overapplication of rudder during a wake turbulence encounter.

In the AT case it was the rudder itself that failed. Rudder does NOT equal vertical stabilizer.

These are separate incidents that are of completely different nature. It is unfair to slag Airbus in this latest case as corrosion and maintenance is one of the possible causes that will be investigated (but this is by no means the conclusion of the investigation). At least it is unfair to slag Airbus unless the investigation reveals a design flaw. Right now we do not know the real cause.

I do also wonder about Transport Canada oversight. But I take issue with the allegation that the cause is related to Quebec-based maintenance. That is simply unacceptable prejudice.

Mike

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Orion737
Posted 2005-03-07 22:27:55 and read 24070 times.

I love the A310 and had wished it would be around for many years but it has been retired early by so many airlines and it looks like Air Transat may not keep them as long as they planned.

The Tristar certainly never had any rudder problems/corrosion. It was a plane built to last and was rock solid, just like the DC10.

I think these new generation jets, although vastly more efficient, may not have the longevity of the old jets. I thinks it using all these composites trying to get them to weigh as much as a feather.The older jets were Strong!!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Rootsgirl
Posted 2005-03-07 22:49:46 and read 23902 times.

Regardless of aircraft type...Tristar/Airbus/Boeing....bottom line is that whatever the make of the aircraft, something is wrong with this picture ( excuse the pun...that rusty rudder looks scarry ) No fatality, but a very close call judging by the picture. Lets not make this into a aircraft type v.s. aircraft type, rather what is going on?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-08 00:15:25 and read 23376 times.

Seriously folks, don't make me (or somebody else) do a search on all the "scary" incidents for all aircraft types. Then all the airplanes would be withdrawn from fleets, and some of you wouldn't step foot in another aircraft again. The A310 has proven to be very safe, and I haven't heard of any other rudder failures with them. The "solid" DC-10's had serious cargo door problems. The L1011 was a hangar queen for Transat, with lots of issues coming up. I'm not undermining the importance of this rudder separation, but they better get to the bottom of it. There are countless things that might have contributed to this happening.

Finally, I don't think there's any evidence that Transport Canada is any more relaxed than any other aviation regulator.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2005-03-08 00:38:53 and read 23228 times.

Nuno, thanks for posting that incredible picture!

Wow, I can't believe it lost virtually all of its rudder. Luckily it sheered off a long time after departure and didn't deflect the air in a strange way to put the flight characteristics in chaos.

I agree with you Manu! That the crew was able to land without incident is amazing. I imagine everyone on board would have heard the rudder tear away!

Obviously the rudder fell harmlessly into the Caribbean/Atlantic. Can you imagine if it fell off over land? It could have killed scores of people or flattened a building!

As to the rumours that the US denied them landing, this is nonsense! The US would allow any airliner in distress to land! A few years ago, a Royal 732 took off from VRD and made an emergency landing in FLL (or MIA) with a suspected engine fire.

This 310 incident is obviously an extremely rare and potentially fatal incident. What is going on at TS?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-08 01:01:58 and read 23120 times.

I understand that with the tearing off of the rudder, that some of the hydraulics might have been lost, and that the constant vibrations could have led to a separation of the rest of the tail. This could have been a lot worse, and it's a good thing they landed when they did. I know it sounds like I'm turning around a bit, but I still stand by my belief that Air Transat has improved a lot, and that the A310 is perfectly safe. I do hope however that this will be THOROUGHLY investigated so that we can learn more about the composites being used in today's more modern aircraft.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2005-03-08 01:16:03 and read 23054 times.

That rudder could have torn off 15 minutes after leaving YYZ or YUL (instead of VRA) and landed on a suburban house in Etobicoke or St Laurent.

I'm kinda horrified that TC has not grounded the entire TS 310 fleet! 310 rudders are not falling off anywhere else.

It will be interesting to see whether this was caused by TS mx or whether this particular 310 rudder has been unduly stressed (and hence weakened) in a previous flight (whether at TS or a previous airline).

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: FLYYUL
Posted 2005-03-08 01:19:53 and read 23038 times.

Neil,

Maybe if Transat was based in Ontario or Alberta, there would be more capable skilled labour to make sure such things would never happen Big grinD  Wink

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: B741
Posted 2005-03-08 01:31:47 and read 22943 times.

This might explain why I have not seen the airliner at YWG in several days.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Matt
Posted 2005-03-08 01:59:18 and read 22842 times.

If you haven't seen their planes in YWG, it's because the YWG-PUJ is over (March 3) and the last PVR flight is coming up shortly. When the PUJ flights are over in YWG, they start in YQM (as YQM and YWG share the same YVR-based A310).

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-08 02:16:51 and read 22757 times.

Quoting Bennett123 (reply 34):
I am surprised that the TS A310 fleet is flying again so soon.


Why so? Transat and the MOT and Airbus looked at the problem, and deemed it not to be a concern with the entire fleet.

Perhaps the "short" turn around of checks on the plane can bear some indications as to the root cause. Perhaps it was caused by something that was easily solved and corrected on other aircraft. --> It is too early to ascertain this though. I just simpy hope that it wasn't a problem caused by maintenance practices.

Quoting Orion737 (reply 35):
A word for Air Tranast, bring back the Tristar. Them L1011 were built to last!


Amen to that my friend! Unfortunately, economics killed the Tristar @ Transat.

It does concern me that Transport Canada hasn't really gotten tough on stuff like this. This is not a "minor" incident. This is a major potential catastrophic event, which could have caused lots of deaths.

I will wait for the reports however.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: EIPremier
Posted 2005-03-08 02:41:42 and read 22575 times.

I can't believe the photos. The rudder is simply gone! It's hard to believe the aircraft could get safely back on the ground without incident.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: B741
Posted 2005-03-08 02:43:56 and read 22558 times.

Great, that will explain why I saw the direct-to-Moncton flight several days ago.

Thanks!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: B752fanatic
Posted 2005-03-08 03:08:42 and read 22430 times.

We got to give it to the TS pilots, they really do a great job in terms of landing an aircraft in emergency situations.

Although their airline sometimes doesnt do a good job on mx, they really know how to land without anyone getting killed.

First was the A330 that ran out of fuel, now this rudder that virtually is in somewhere near the strait of Florida at sea.

Incredible.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Matt
Posted 2005-03-08 03:11:16 and read 22431 times.

Quoting B741 (reply 49):
Great, that will explain why I saw the direct-to-Moncton flight several days ago.


Yes, from last Tuesday to Thursday, the Vancouver-based A310 had a "long" day:

Tue YVR-PUJ
Wed PUJ-YWG (last flight of the season)
Wed YWG-YQM (ferry flight)
Wed YQM-PUJ (first flight of the season)
Wed PUJ-YVR (arrive Thu.)

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: CO737800
Posted 2005-03-08 03:15:00 and read 22388 times.

A few years back when I worked at YVR the Air Transat base manger said that they wanted to get 767's the 200 and the 300. I dont see why they would get the 300 when they have the A330. It would be nice to fly a 767 Yvr-Cancun

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2005-03-08 11:17:11 and read 22040 times.

Several people refer to the L1011.

I think that they were all scrapped, or are they parked somewhere.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: FDH
Posted 2005-03-08 13:20:56 and read 21962 times.

This picture seems to show that some parts have rust on them. Is this usual to see rust on these parts?

Also, I heard on the radio this morning that the crew simply did not request authorization to land the plane in the US, that's why the plane returned to Cuba.

FDH

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Manu
Posted 2005-03-08 14:49:25 and read 21855 times.

Quoting FDH (reply 54):
the crew simply did not request authorization to land the plane in the US


It's impossible to see the tail from the interior of the aircraft, so I imagine they didn't understand the damage and risk, but realized something was wrong and returned to the departure point.

The composites on aircraft always concern me in a unique way. I am a cyclist and have carbon fiber and unique lightweight alloys on my bikes, which take a lot of punishment. Most of the technology is adapted from the aviation industry, or at least the bike companies try and convince me they are as a consumer. But I've always been concerned that it would just shear off going 60km/hr and make me do a bad wipe out.

At least I don't have 150 pax on my bike though  Smile

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: YUL332LX
Posted 2005-03-08 16:45:22 and read 21748 times.

Quoting Yyz717 (reply 41):
As to the rumours that the US denied them landing, this is nonsense! The US would allow any airliner in distress to land! A few years ago, a Royal 732 took off from VRD and made an emergency landing in FLL (or MIA) with a suspected engine fire.


Quoting FDH (reply 54):
Also, I heard on the radio this morning that the crew simply did not request authorization to land the plane in the US, that's why the plane returned to Cuba.


Both the FAA and TS have denied this rumour yesterday.

The pilots asked for FLL and they were told by the ATC that MIA was a better option. The pilots decided against MIA and opted to go back to VRA instead.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lymanm
Posted 2005-03-08 17:59:49 and read 21664 times.

To all those asking about the rust: the rust colour you see if the composite structure of the contruction. That's the colour of the material. Composite structures on their own don't rust.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Olympus69
Posted 2005-03-09 00:43:10 and read 21431 times.

Am I wrong in assuming that the photo in reply 16 was taken after the damaged rudder had been removed from the plane. If the virtually complete rudder had broken off, the quote below is not believable. Perhaps they thought it was a computer malfunction like the A330 incident. Yeah sure

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 16):
Apparently the crew did not understand the severity of the condition, and chose to return to Cuba, since they had maintenance there.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: DC10GUY
Posted 2005-03-09 01:47:59 and read 21345 times.

One word ... Poor inspection ... Ok 2 words. Composite flight controls may need new ways to be inspected, but they don't just "all of a sudden" blow off.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-09 02:30:41 and read 21303 times.

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 58):
Am I wrong in assuming that the photo in reply 16 was taken after the damaged rudder had been removed from the plane. If the virtually complete rudder had broken off, the quote below is not believable


Hey John, the rudder came off as shown in the picture above. I have seen other pictures that show this quite well. Below is another example:



Remember, the crew wont be using rudder up at cruising altitude, which is when this had happened. If anything, they would have felt vibrations, and possibly the aircraft losing some stability. Beyond that, with the shearing off of the rudder, you can expect hydraulic problems, and consequent indications in the flightdeck.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Cessnapimp
Posted 2005-03-09 02:56:20 and read 21273 times.

What I find absolutely amazing from the picture above is that it seems as if the attachements, whether they be bolts or screws or lugnuts or what have you, do not seem to be the cause of the failure. It litterally looks as if the composite itself sheared off... it didn't think composites could react that way... detach, unglue itself, sure, but rip itself off like that? Wow...

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-09 03:23:23 and read 21236 times.

I agree with you Greg, but I heard from somebody else (not sure how true) that the top attachment might have failed, causing the whole rudder to shear off like that. Again, just another hypothesis and it could be way off. I'm veeeery curious to see how this one ends up!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-09 03:40:05 and read 21216 times.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 62):
agree with you Greg, but I heard from somebody else (not sure how true) that the top attachment might have failed, causing the whole rudder to shear off like that. Again, just another hypothesis and it could be way off. I'm veeeery curious to see how this one ends up!


Imagining the kind of stress that that part of the structure could/would have been under during normal flight loads, it's not unimaginable to see the kind of damage you'd be seeing as in your pics Nuno.

It seems to me that this plane, its crew, and it's passengers need to be kissing the ground they walk on, and praying to whatever Being they worship to. It looks like Transat came *very* close to another disaster.

The other thing that struck me was the fact that this happened rather soon after the Azores incident is being rounded up, and closed off.

Well, lets just pray it's not a symptom of manufacture?

Thanks again for the pics Nuno!
1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Crosswind
Posted 2005-03-09 03:48:25 and read 21265 times.

From the pictures its impossible to say where the initial failure was, or even guess. A structural failure at speed and it will often be aerodynamic forces that finnish off what the failure started.

The initial failure may have only been fairly small, but if for example a hole appeared as a result of the failure, a 300kt wind whistling through that aperture could conceivably destroy what's left of the rudder from the inside out. In the Japan Airlines 747 accident the fin failed because it was filled with pressurised air from the cabin as a result of the rear bulkhead failure. Since then an inspection panel has been installed over the aperture at the base of the fin to prevent similar damage in event of another depressurisation into the tail area.

Certainly an amazing incident, of corse since the vertical fin remained intact the aircraft will have most of it's retained it's lateral stability, and under most conditions will remain flyable sans rudder (excepting engine failure, other hydraulics problems etc) There's little doubt that the crew probably had scant indication of the extent of the damage their aircraft had suffered while in-flight. They can certainly be satisfied with a job well done.

Regards
CROSSWIND

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Yak42
Posted 2005-03-10 18:10:47 and read 20717 times.

As already said above I just want to stress that this is a very different incident to the AA A300 accident. The rudder in the AA accident must have been very strong as it pulled the entire stabiliser off but in this case the rudder must have been very weak to tear off midflight. So its the complete opposite.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Areopagus
Posted 2005-03-10 21:21:21 and read 20446 times.



Quoting Yak42 (Reply 65):
The rudder in the AA accident must have been very strong as it pulled the entire stabiliser off

The rudder didn't pull the stabilzer off. The side load from wind on the stabilizer tore it off. The side wind was caused by the side to side oscillations being built up by alternating application of the rudder.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Meister808
Posted 2005-03-10 23:22:19 and read 19890 times.



Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 63):
Imagining the kind of stress that that part of the structure could/would have been under during normal flight loads, it's not unimaginable to see the kind of damage you'd be seeing as in your pics Nuno.

What kind of stress is that? There should be close to no stress on a rudder in straight and level flight, since they are generally pretty centered. To be honest, tossing a rudder should be something of a non-event, unless the landing needs to be made with a hefty crosswind or something. Rudders just aren't all that essential... yes they are there for a reason, and on a large airplane they have considerable justification for being there, but all you need to do as a pilot without a rudder is make the turns nice and shallow and there is no reason to have any trouble at all.

-Meister

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: AR385
Posted 2005-03-11 00:26:43 and read 19552 times.

Rather than be concerned about the rudder falling off an Air Transat plane because of a design fault or MX, I'm concerned about the darn airline. Isn't this the second close call the've had ? with the first being that A-330 plane landing on the Azores with nada, zero fuel? Air Transat should be examined real closely, in my opinion.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: POR2GAL
Posted 2005-03-11 01:50:23 and read 19230 times.

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 67):


Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 63):
Imagining the kind of stress that that part of the structure could/would have been under during normal flight loads, it's not unimaginable to see the kind of damage you'd be seeing as in your pics Nuno.

What kind of stress is that? There should be close to no stress on a rudder in straight and level flight, since they are generally pretty centered. To be honest, tossing a rudder should be something of a non-event, unless the landing needs to be made with a hefty crosswind or something. Rudders just aren't all that essential... yes they are there for a reason, and on a large airplane they have considerable justification for being there, but all you need to do as a pilot without a rudder is make the turns nice and shallow and there is no reason to have any trouble at all.

Exactly!! People, although it is a very scary thought, this really wasn't a huge deal, unless they ran into some other "situations".

I asked a pilot friend of the family, and he told me that he rarely uses rudder inputs. Only in situations of strong crosswinds is it really applicable. Other than that, pilots use the rudder simply to help make tighter turns which is hardly ever required (it's like driving a sports car on a 30km/h on-ramp at 100 km/h. You can do it with a high performance suspension, but if that suspension lost it's performance, you can still make the on ramp at 30km/h or less).

Albeit, yes, the rudder is necessary to have, and had that A310 encountered strong crosswinds on landing, they'd be in a whole lot of trouble. But, I'm sure ATC and the PIC would know that and made sure that the conditions at the selected runway were as best as it could be for this situation.

The plane probably did encounter some significant vibrations, but probably not enough to threaten the rest of the tail section. However, why this happened in the first place, is whole different story!! No doubt that rudders should not be shearing off like that!!  Wow!

Xiao!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: B741
Posted 2005-03-11 01:59:36 and read 19199 times.

Something is still lingering here because the last flight out of YWG for the season was cancelled today.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-11 02:59:58 and read 18970 times.

The plane probably did encounter some significant vibrations, but probably not enough to threaten the rest of the tail section

Unfortunately, that's not what I heard. You also have to take into account what other damage was caused by the rudder coming off. Simple things like engine cowlings, or other parts of the aircraft coming off can have much worse effects than the fact that the part is simply not there anymore. The pilots did a great job, but they are also somewhat lucky to be safe and sound.  Smile

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: PapaNovember
Posted 2005-03-11 04:13:54 and read 18671 times.

The Air Transat press release stated that the aircraft underwent an "A" check on March 1st. Just five days before this incident occurred. Could there be any correlation between the two? What exactly does an "A" check entail?

Quoting Matt (Reply 9):
Link to the Air Transat press release:

http://www.transat.com/en/media_cent...d=870

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: PapaNovember
Posted 2005-03-11 04:15:50 and read 18664 times.

"entail" no pun intended.....

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: ANNOYEDFA
Posted 2005-03-11 04:57:25 and read 18529 times.

I sit here astonished that the plane was actually able to be flow and controlled with just about no rudder. I always thought once the rudder was gone so was the plane. Those 310's should not be flying till they find out what caused this. Sad

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-11 06:21:48 and read 18322 times.

Annoyedfa, as has been mentioned above, which you likely didn't read, an aircraft can fly pretty normally without a rudder. Rudders on larger aircraft are rarely used, and really only necessary in extreme conditions, such as engine failures, strong cross winds, etc.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: AndrewUber
Posted 2005-03-11 06:44:27 and read 18271 times.

Quoting PapaNovember (Reply 72):
The Air Transat press release stated that the aircraft underwent an "A" check on March 1st. Just five days before this incident occurred. Could there be any correlation between the two? What exactly does an "A" check entail?

An A check is definately NOT heavy maintenance, it's more of a line item accomplished at either the hub or any outstation. Usually a couple of mechanics can accomplish an A-check in several hours. It's a very routine inspection, and I doubt the rudder is even inspected on an A-310 A check. Usually it's a paperwork audit, O2, hydaulic and oils top off, lights check, etc...

Drew

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2005-03-11 18:17:13 and read 17519 times.

Unbelievable.
Whats the latest on this.Any Initial Investigation reports.Did Airbus Issue an AD.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-11 19:36:13 and read 17517 times.

Jetsgo's shutdown will definitely help take the spotlight off Air Transat and any perceived maintenance issues they may have.  Wink Same thing happened in 2001, they had a rough year with problems, and 911 took the spotlight off them then as well!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Rootsgirl
Posted 2005-03-14 19:24:48 and read 16459 times.

Nuno you are right. Transat has skipped through the '' radar'' yet again. First with the Azores incident - C-3 went bankrupt and now this incident, Jetsgo went bankrupt.

Sort of took Transat out of the spotlight if they were ever really in it. I am shocked that the Canadian newspapers did not cover this incident more, if at all. Hopefully, Transat will have to step up to the plate and publically provide answers. They got off easy with the Azores incident and really no more was made of the report that ascertained it was pilot and maintenance error.

I hope we keep this thread active as we hear things so that the public can be aware that things are not normal when an aircraft sustains that much damage while at cruise.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-14 21:32:16 and read 16357 times.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 14):
Canadi>nBoy, I believe (and hope) that you are overreacting.

This is exactly what the problem is in Canada - underestimation, and it's going to lead our industry to a more serious incident unless we exercise awareness that we have a serious issue re airline safety monitoring. I am most certainly not overracting, CaptainGomes, you are underestimating along with a number of people whose apathy could possibly lead this nation's air industry to a severe/critical incident down the road. I hope that you can appreciate the severity of the situation at hand re this incident. Is this the mere tip of the iceberg re TS maitenance ops procedures? Only a complete and thorough assessment by Transport Canada

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 14):
Every airline has incidents, and it is far too early to point the fingers at Transat's maintenance because of this rudder problem. This A310 is still in old colours, which leads me to believe it was due for heavy maintenance in the next little while, so perhaps it hadn't been inspected for a while.

Or perhaps it hadn't been inspected in a proper and dilligent, thorough manner along with the rest of the TS fleet? Hadn't been inspected for a while? Within or outside the proscribed safety margins re timelines? Only TS and hopefully Transport Canada can address this question.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 14):
Anyways, I have complete faith in Air Transat. Their complaints are down, their delays are way down, they seem to have put a lot of emphasis on a good operation.

I think we should all stop assuming factors and being so complacent. It is quite obvious a more stringent watchdog (M.O.T) is needed in Canada. Pax service complaints do not go hand in hand with internal safety measures/maintenance ops. Is a pax to know to complain about aircraft parts and systems malfunctions? Me thinks not.

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 15):
...because most maintenance bases are located in Quebec perhaps?

PERHAPS therein lies a problem that needs to be further addressed and assessed under a closer microscope.

Quoting Matt (Reply 28):
Whoa! Let's not compare TS with NX (Nationair)! I worked as an f/a for NX and let me tell you that there is no comparison to be made with TS. NX did not care at all about maintenance. Their planes were in awful shape, the incidents were too numerous to count, and the delays innumerable.

If you ready what I wrote carefully, you would see that I was not comparing TS to Nationair, an airline that was in a league all of its own. What I was addressing was Transport Canada's negligence in allowing this operation to sustain in light of critical and atrocious factors and incidents re safety. I have a lot of apprehension and doubt when it comes to M.O.T, and this TS incident, along with ex-Jetsgo (at least Transport Canada did in fact slap Leblanc with the 30 day 'clean up your act' warning, one which should have been given to Jetsgo long before it was, in my personal opinion).

Quoting Manu (Reply 29):
There have been a lot of incidents with Canadian airlines recently. Considering the only two modern aircraft to have ever run out of fuel midflight have both been Canadian. Mind you, they both landed safely, despite the one running an ETOPS route.

Too many incidents for my liking. No matter they landed safely, what if they didn't? These two incidents should never have happened.

Quoting Rootsgirl (Reply 32):
I agree with Canadian Boy...l am sick of MOT and the Canadian Regulators, they may sit there all quiet in the cushy government roles, however that is where the buck stops. How typically '' Canadian'' to be a fence sitter. They need to up the anti on Canadian regs and what the carriers are allowed to get away with from duty days to maintenance. Even 5G scares me at times with all the MELs...if it is MEL then darn well fix it because it is MEL for a reason!

Hey! Rootsgirl! Long time no chat! Hope all has been well with you. And I concur with what you stated above.

Quoting Rootsgirl (Reply 32):
They are all finger painting pretty picutres but at whose expense? The fact that Capt Piche was made a hero and the Transat incident was nicely buried said so much about the way things work here in Canada. And no disrespect to anyone who works for Transat, Jetsgo, even Skyservice, but....due to the lax regs, it is a matter of time of one of our carrers have a fatality more severe than the Azores or the Jetsgo incident.

I agree.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 40):
Finally, I don't think there's any evidence that Transport Canada is any more relaxed than any other aviation regulator.

You "don't think" means you don't know. Neither do we - but again we must never assume and place blind faith in any executive or governing body. Blind faith is not only ignorant, it's dangerous.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 41):
This 310 incident is obviously an extremely rare and potentially fatal incident. What is going on at TS?

A question many of us pose. And we should nost relax nor sweep it under the rug, which after all, seems to be the Canadian thing to do as of late.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 43):
It will be interesting to see whether this was caused by TS mx or whether this particular 310 rudder has been unduly stressed (and hence weakened) in a previous flight (whether at TS or a previous airline).

Regardless of whether it was caused at TS or a previous carrier, what is disturbing is the fact it happened at all, and any fatigue or erosion of this severity should have been caught by TS. I cannot believe the 'breakdown timeline' on this was a short one.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 47):
Why so? Transat and the MOT and Airbus looked at the problem, and deemed it not to be a concern with the entire fleet

And:

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 47):
It does concern me that Transport Canada hasn't really gotten tough on stuff like this. This is not a "minor" incident. This is a major potential catastrophic event, which could have caused lots of deaths.

Contradiction?

Rootsgirl, I too am both shocked and angry that this incident was not covered more. Is the Canadian media a reflection of the mindset at some Canadian carriers and Transport Canada?

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 63):
It seems to me that this plane, its crew, and it's passengers need to be kissing the ground they walk on, and praying to whatever Being they worship to. It looks like Transat came *very* close to another disaster.

TOO CLOSE. Perhaps the next incident will not be a close call, but will in fact be a search and rescue or search and recovery operation.

[quote=POR2GAL,reply=69]Exactly!! People, although it is a very scary thought, this really wasn't a huge deal,

Nooooo. Not at all.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: YUL332LX
Posted 2005-03-14 21:52:55 and read 16320 times.

Quoting Canadi>nBoy (Reply 80):
PERHAPS therein lies a problem that needs to be further addressed and assessed under a closer microscope.

…perhaps you could, paranoia apart, explain what you would expect to find ''under a closer microscope''?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-14 21:53:32 and read 16319 times.

The Canadian airline industry should be one in which other nations around the globe strive to emulate. This is a proud Canadian speaking who is, along with many other people, standing on the sidelines and watching as our industry seems to be slipping down to levels pertaining to safety which are just not acceptable for this nation, for the Canadian crews and passengers. We have the tools, personnel, ingenuity and integrity in which to ensure that this mandate is attained and sustained.

The Canadian federal government likes to look upon and present itself to both Canadians and the world as a leader and innovator in terms of global peacekeeping - it is not; we rank 37th among nations. The government has grown apathetic and is hanging onto an ideal and fact that has long gone by.
Can the same observation be applied towards Transport Canada? Does this governing body exist with the ideal of good and sound principals in theory, in terms of hindsight and not present day execution?

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-14 22:00:32 and read 16304 times.

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 81):
…perhaps you could, paranoia apart, explain what you would expect to find ''under a closer microscope''?

Ah, another Canadian school of thought in which we can label ourselves re air industry safety: paranoia. YUL332LX, if that's how you think of me, so be it.
I'd much rather be paranoid and off my heels and than complacent and on my heels.What I would 'expect' to be found under a closer microscope are problems, infractions and issues which are increasingly appearing on the surface. Well, if 'paranoia' will help to whip our air industry back up to superlative levels re safety, then may we all be paranoid as opposed to apathetic and merely accepting the words and text the spin doctors put out.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-14 22:01:52 and read 16298 times.

Quoting Canadi>nBoy (Reply 80):
Contradiction?

My responses could be misconscrued that way, however I should have been more forthcoming with my response.

What I meant, was that it's amazing that a company like Jetsgo can get away with the major list of incidents and infractions, yet one major incident with Transat, and TC is there inspecting immediately. There doesn't appear to be a consistency. However, I'm not there every time something happens, so I am more than likely spewing rubbish.

They need to be more forceful all around the industry. This country is too lax on LOTS of issues, but that's for another discussion.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-14 22:18:13 and read 16270 times.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 84):
What I meant, was that it's amazing that a company like Jetsgo can get away with the major list of incidents and infractions, yet one major incident with Transat, and TC is there inspecting immediately. There doesn't appear to be a consistency. However, I'm not there every time something happens, so I am more than likely spewing rubbish.

INDEED. Now THAT'S a contradiction right there - not you, the above!  Smile

For a long time, I and many others strongly suspected (read PARANOID) that Jetsgo maintenance ops was not on the up-and-up. I'm very sorry to say our individual and collective "paranoid' suspicions were justified. Most people on this site probably had a very good idea of that as well. Jetsgo was a prime example of WHY a published fare ceiling must be in place and maintained in the industry, and why carriers should never descend below this designated ceiling. Company fiscal health and well above standard maintenance budgets/skilled personnel go hand in hand with this ceiling....but that's another issue altogether.

I am glad that TC was on their toes and responded to TS as quickly as they did. And for the record, I do not feel Air Transat, when all is said and done, is another Nationair. Good God, no carrier could hold a candle to "NationScare". Far from it. But there indeed is something amiss which needs to be urgently addressed both internally and externally (TC).

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-14 22:40:28 and read 16242 times.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 40):
The A310 has proven to be very safe, and I haven't heard of any other rudder failures with them

Agreed. The A310, from a manufacturing perspective, is indeed a most safe aircraft, which in turn raises a relevant question???

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 40):
The L1011 was a hangar queen for Transat, with lots of issues coming up.

Honey, I WAS the Hangar Queen for Worldways! I can't tell ya's how many times I was hauled in and had MY rear APU worked over during MY mandatory
'C' Checks! LOL. Sorry man, couldn't resist!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: YUL332LX
Posted 2005-03-14 22:44:59 and read 16235 times.

Canadi>nBoy,

If you were implying that there might be issues with the MRO in Canada, I would agree with you right away (especially in the case of Jetsgo). I believe SG should have been grounded weeks ago when it became obvious that they had security issues.

However, when you implied (reply no 11) that these incidents probably happened BECAUSE the maintenance is based is Quebec, now that was a paranoiac assumption. The same security issues related with TS/SG or TC in general would exist even if the maintenance was based in the ROC.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-14 22:51:32 and read 16216 times.

Quoting Canadi>nBoy (Reply 85):
For a long time, I and many others strongly suspected (read PARANOID) that Jetsgo maintenance ops was not on the up-and-up. I'm very sorry to say our individual and collective "paranoid' suspicions were justified. Most people on this site probably had a very good idea of that as well. Jetsgo was a prime example of WHY a published fare ceiling must be in place and maintained in the industry, and why carriers should never descend below this designated ceiling. Company fiscal health and well above standard maintenance budgets/skilled personnel go hand in hand with this ceiling....but that's another issue altogether.

Again, we agree -- The airline screamed of lax maintenance processes. I don't know how many times I was at YYZ, watching them trying to fix an MD83 at the Skycharter hangar. I'd watch, watching themselves scratch their heads at what was going on.

If you were around the aviation industry enough, you could hear the collective chant of people exclaiming that there was just something wrong.

1011yyz.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-14 22:52:52 and read 16205 times.

YUL332LX,

I was in fact referring to what you stated above re Jetsgo. My apologies for failing without question to effectively articulate/communicate my viewpoints, and my apologies to any French Canadian here who misinterpreted my statement and thought I was implying that French Canadians were a factor. Good God, I would never think or assume such a thing. What I meant to say was that it appeared that certain maintenance BASES and areas should be addressed due to the carrier's ops location and most certainly NOT based on the nationality/ethnicity of those servicing the aircraft.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-14 22:57:52 and read 16201 times.

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 87):
However, when you implied (reply no 11) that these incidents probably happened BECAUSE the maintenance is based is Quebec, now that was a paranoiac assumption. The same security issues related with TS/SG or TC in general would exist even if the maintenance was based in the ROC.

No, I agree with you there YUL, but something does have to be said about the maintenance.

Had SG had a profitable outfit, where they weren't afraid to spend a little money on maintainance, the outcome would have been different.

When you undercut every airline out there, just so you can fill your planes (at a cost significantly higher than revenue being generated), you need to find money somewhere to keep things running. Look at it from a CFO or Board of Director perspective. You want the company to keep making money. Company is NOT doing well, first things to go? The areas of the business where the most money is spent.

It's just a natural. It's WRONG, but it's just the natural thing to do.

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: YUL332LX
Posted 2005-03-14 23:00:03 and read 16183 times.

Quoting Canadi>nBoy (Reply 89):
I was in fact referring to what you stated above re Jetsgo. My apologies for failing without question to effectively articulate/communicate my viewpoints, and my apologies to any French Canadian here who misinterpreted my statement and thought I was implying that French Canadians were a factor. Good God, I would never think or assume such a thing. What I meant to say was that it appeared that certain maintenance BASES and areas should be addressed due to the carrier's ops location and most certainly NOT based on the nationality/ethnicity of those servicing the aircraft.

Agreed 100%. Glad we cleared that up  Smile

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Canadi>nBoy
Posted 2005-03-14 23:00:18 and read 16184 times.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 88):
I don't know how many times I was at YYZ, watching them trying to fix an MD83 at the Skycharter hangar. I'd watch, watching themselves scratch their heads at what was going on.

Good God.

Quoting Lnglive1011yyz (Reply 88):
If you were around the aviation industry enough, you could hear the collective chant of people exclaiming that there was just something wrong.

My career/firm is global meeting/event planning/incentives for Fortune 500 companies. We deal directly with carriers such as AC. LH, AF, CX, etc., and thankfully I do get to travel extensively for my work. I also have many ex WG colleagues who are at AC, TS and SV, etc. They keep me up to date with all the inside stuff - as much as they know, that is. So, yeah, I still am 'around'
the biz, very much. I stated in another thread that a year or so ago, I put a complete stop to my staff utilizing Jetsgo for biz travel, and we would certainly NEVER have put our affluent clientele on that carrier. My staff thought I was nuts, as I would willlingly pay higher published fares for staff travel within North America.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-15 01:15:11 and read 16089 times.

First of all, due to lack of time, I have not read all the replies since the one where I quote Canadi>nBoy below ... I will read the rest later on ...

Quoting Canadi>nBoy (Reply 80):
You "don't think" means you don't know. Neither do we - but again we must never assume and place blind faith in any executive or governing body. Blind faith is not only ignorant, it's dangerous.

Canadi>nBoy, tisk tisk. You have to realize that I am not in any way minimizing this incident. I have stated that it must be fully investigated, and until more is known, it is far too early to say whether or not Transat maintenance is an issues again. If so, there should be SEVERE repurcussions, as they didn't learn from the past. I do not in any way want to see complacency in Canadian aviation, but there has been much attacking here of airlines and government bodies when in fact none of us are in positions to properly assess whether they are doing the right or wrong things.

Until more is known, this incident could have been due to maintenance, an Airbus flaw, previous damage that went unnoticed at a previous airline which can be attributed to lack of maintenance or lack of knowledge ... many things could have gone wrong and it's far too early for any of us to point fingers quite yet.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: POR2GAL
Posted 2005-03-15 03:22:51 and read 15987 times.

Quoting Canadi>nBoy (Reply 80):
Nooooo. Not at all.

When I said "not a huge deal"..I meant, this plane wasn't going to go down just because it lost the rudder. Everyone was acting like this was a miracle.

Obviously, I would never want to be in a plane that just had it's rudder blown away! However, it's not like losing a wing or the entire tail section. As far as I know (agreed, I'm not anywhere near being an expert) the rudder has really no use during cruise. Once again, as far as I know, the rudder may be used in situations of strong crosswinds during cruise to try and keep the a/c's heading in check.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the reason this rudder was sheared off like that (other than rusted out joints, etc), was due to one of the pilots moving the rudder excessively (steep rudder angle during cruise). Although, even if it was a pilot error, it still shouldn't shear off like that unless the rudder was already weak - which the investigation will determine.

This is only my opinion based on what I've been taught. I am not a pilot, I only have a friend that is a pilot. I could be completely wrong. However, the fact that a missing rudder does not bring down a plane was proven by this Air Transat stunt. Harrowing, totally! But not enough to make the a/c drop out of the sky.

I can't wait for the investigation on this one to be completed. Absolutely that there should be severe repercussions for TS if this is indeed another Mx issue. But I think we need to lay off of Canadian Mx in general. Yes, there are issues, as there are everywhere else in the world. But there are fine Canadians out there doing a hell of a job for their airlines, and we shouldn't be bashing them.
PS. Anyone out there agree that Air Transat only recruits "wild thing" -like pilots!

Xiao!

[Edited 2005-03-15 03:37:10]

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: AMSSFO
Posted 2005-03-15 03:26:28 and read 15983 times.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...0082&sid=aD2..nojz26k&refer=canada
Airbus orders airlines to inspect rudders of A310/A300-600

Another interesting read:
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx...ternational_news/&articleid=199466

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-15 03:50:21 and read 15967 times.

Wow. That article that was just posted by AMSSFO was certainly interesting (The bloomberg one).

Couple of key notes:

1) The writer actually knew what he was talking about. No sensationalism or mistakes. He even explained how the rudder worked, and what it was for.

2) Ordering inspection of all A310 and 300-600 aircraft to test via the "tap" method to ensure that internal integrity is not compromised. (Not directly quoted).

This last bit leads me to believe that Airbus is either a)working on a theory that the rudders internal structure failed or b) they are being cautious about the situation.

Good work on Airbus' part. I can't wait to have all the anti-airbus a.netters jump all over this.... I can hear it coming....

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-15 03:52:29 and read 15954 times.

Quoting POR2GAL (Reply 94):
PS. Anyone out there agree that Air Transat only recruits "wild thing" -like pilots!

No.

 stirthepot 

1011yyz

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: POR2GAL
Posted 2005-03-15 04:00:27 and read 15958 times.

Sorry, nothing against TS pilots, I think the fact that they have made 2 safe "limp in" landings in recent years makes them very good pilots!

I'm sure not too many pilots would have the "nuts" to do what these TS pilots have done!

Truly, I think if I were the Captain of that TS that lost the rudder, I would've landed at the closest airport capable of the A310, regardless of "permission grants" from either the US or TS!!!

These guys (or girls) are fantastic!!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: GoogleBoy
Posted 2005-03-16 18:05:10 and read 15321 times.

Well this is interesting. Looking at the pictures and my design knowledge of aircraft. Here are a few hypotheses.

The tail (aft fuse + empennage assembly) on those aircraft is not as stiff as on other aircraft (in bending and torsion modes). If you happen to sit in the back, notice the oscillations when the tail is subjected to a lateral gust and especially the number of amplitude oscillations it takes for the fuselage tail-end to go back in neutral centerline position. This physical vibration characteristic of the fuselage is perhaps a result of the weight minimization exercise during design. (Optimized wall thicknesses of stringers, skin pockets, etc..) Now, if you get more vibration in tail you get more ''fatigue cycle accumulation". Where is this vibration reacted in the tail? At the interface between the rudder and V-Stab, the hinges.

There are four hinges on that aircraft. This arrangement of four hinges is supposed to be designed "FAIL-SAFE", since it is a FAA, JAA, TC design requirement for flight control attachments. So, what may have happened??? The two upper hinges failed first closely one after the other probably with the upper one as first initiation, then the reaction load redistributed on the remaining hinges (PCU hinge and lower hinge). Those hinges were capable to sustain the load redistribution (because PCU hinges are designed in static to take the large PCU loads) but the rudder structure itself could not and failed (skin tearing off very near the PCU hinge). So it seems like it is a fatigue-(perhaps also corrosion induced) failure of the upper hinge that is the source of this cascade failure. But, the design is supposed to absorb a single hinge failure. So, that is a concern that must be looked at very seriously right now by the Authorities and the OEM.

If this is a possibility then what contributed to the upper hinge failure? Many factors or combination of them. 1st remember the less stiff tail. This induces more vibrations (more Gs). Where are the maximum amplitude vibrations? in the upper hinge that reacts those local accelerations. So the upper hinge took more fatigue cycles and failed.

2nd factor. Transport aircraft structural sizing is predominantly driven by the "gust formula equations". I.e. it is designed by fatigue load cases due to vertical and lateral gust occurrences. However, here is a possible issue. The gust formulas have constants that were derived from a worldwide atmospheric survey done in the 60s to characterize statistically gust phenomena in the atmosphere at various altitudes and seasons, etc... Now, here's the problem: the planet's climate is an issue (global warming). If the planet atmosphere warms up, then (from high school physics when you raise temperature of a gas in a reservoir there is more turbulence and mixing) you get more turbulence in terms of frequencies (occurrences) and amplitude. This may mean that the constants in the famous gust formulas may need a refresh and a new worldwide survey. This may mean that design practices would have to take into account a different gust (lateral and vertical) spectrum distribution. The design factors would therefore have to be updated accordingly to cater for more induced fatigue damage in-flight.

3rd. These two factors could have been accentuated by "non-optimal" maintenance and the presence of corrosion.

To sum up. This has to be taken seriously and a series of measures on many fronts may have to be taken.

Cheers!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Captaingomes
Posted 2005-03-16 19:32:41 and read 15215 times.

Interesting comments Googleboy, definitely worth a read. Welcome aboard!

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: GoogleBoy
Posted 2005-03-16 20:19:10 and read 15151 times.

Airliner visual inspection of other A310 tails + rudder will not do it!

If it's a fatigue failure of hinge assembly then:

1. you need access to it (it's the upper one) Cherry picker to get there. Not an easy task.
2. fatigue cracks may be in the pin at the pin-bushing interface (not visible, especially if rudder not removed).
3. or cracks could be on the hinge lug, and again, if at the bushing-lug interface a visual check may not pick that up.

How far did TS go in their inspecttion. Reasonable doubts.

To sum up, a proper inspection (NDI) is required with removal of the rudder and disassembly of hinges for eddy-current detailed inspections, repair, and replacement.

This means a lot of down time and loss of revenue. Litte incentive from the airliner point of view to do this to such extent. The issue is safety vs economics. Only way to have this done properly is through a mandatory Advisory Directive (AD) from Certification Authorities or a Service Bulleting SB from the OEM. Let's see who does what...

Besides pax are thinking about their rights.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2005-03-16 20:29:41 and read 15132 times.

The question still remains why did this near-catastrophe happen on this specific 313? No other A310 has had a similar fatigue/failure.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: GoogleBoy
Posted 2005-03-16 20:42:14 and read 15112 times.

My aircraft fatigue professor of Cranfield Institute of Technology, UK used to say: "aircraft fatigue is insidious in nature and past performance is no sure guarantee of failure-free events in the future." Inspection methods and intervals are key to detect them before they grow to failure. Did we ever have Aloha airlines incident before (multi-site damage due to fatigue-corrosion in the fuselage skin lap joints)? No. Did we get other ones since then. Not to my knowledge. Is this assurance that there will not be other occurrences of fatigue failures in the future. I'd bet not. It all depends on the balance between economics and safety of the public.
 Wink

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: GoogleBoy
Posted 2005-03-16 21:54:28 and read 14957 times.

News: Airbus will tell Carriers to Inpsect 400-series Rudder.
Source: www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Arti...5-13/TPBusiness/?query=Air+Transat

Focus seems to be on the rudder torque box (i.e. the carbon honeycomb sandwich panel skins and spars) for the moment. No mention of hinge inspections. Will talk with Airbus tech folks.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: GoogleBoy
Posted 2005-03-16 22:23:42 and read 14901 times.

Sent a query to Canadian TSB (Transport Safety Board). They are in touch with Transport Canada (TC) and likely, with Airbus.
Waiting for a response.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: GoogleBoy
Posted 2005-03-16 23:13:39 and read 14852 times.

Please have a look at those:

www.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/over/ab3/AB3-041.pdf

www.dgca.nic.in/mandmod/A310.pdf

(page 21 of the document)
DGCA/A310/81 TO DETECT & PREVENT DISBONDING, WHICH IF
NOT CORRECTED COULD REDUCE THE
STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY OF THE RUDDER.
FAA AD 97-04-07


Page 37 of document:
DGCA/A310/147 VERTICAL STABILIZER AND RUDDER ATTACHMENT
FITTINGS DGAC AD 2001-560(B)

Let's not draw any hasty conclusions on those. Just be aware they exist.

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-03-17 01:02:45 and read 14741 times.

Those pics really make it obvious how serious this was.

How about all the Canidians who are unhappy with their aviation safety authoritys make a joint letter to voice their concerns

Topic: RE: Air Transat A310s - Problems?
Username: Lnglive1011yyz
Posted 2005-03-17 01:17:56 and read 14726 times.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 107):
How about all the Canidians who are unhappy with their aviation safety authoritys make a joint letter to voice their concerns

Quite simply, if one doesn't crash, our gov't won't do anything about it.

They'll make it appear that they're doing something, but they won't enforce nothing.

1011yyz


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/