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Topic: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Art
Posted 2005-03-30 03:58:58 and read 18185 times.

Supposing you say hello to the world on a Lufthansa flight from LA to SYD. What effect would this have on your nationality? You normally have an automatic claim to the nationality of the land in which you are born. Can you claim German nationality because you were born on a German owned/registered aircraft? If in US or Oz airspace, can you claim one of those nationalities?

Just wondered. When I was a small child I thought I had been born on a plane over the North Sea since I was told I was half English and half Norwegian.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: GulfstreamGuy
Posted 2005-03-30 04:03:37 and read 18173 times.

From what I've heard, wherever the plane lands is where the official birthplace is. So if the plane lands in SYD then the baby's birthplace is Sydney.

GulfstreamGuy  airplane 

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: PA110
Posted 2005-03-30 04:04:10 and read 18169 times.

This is total speculation on my part, but I think that in ambiguous situations like this, the nationality of the parents is the determining factor. I don't know how much national airspace or aircraft registry plays a role, or if they can even be used for the purposes of applying for citizenship other than that of the parents, but I think its an interesting question. Hopefully someone can enlighten us with fact.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2005-03-30 04:05:07 and read 18163 times.

The Birthplace is that of the air carrier's flag. The citizenship is that of the parents. As an example, if you are born of British parents on an American Airlines Flight to London, your place of Birth is Dallas (The airlines business address of record), Texas and your citizenship is British.

[Edited 2005-03-30 04:07:00]

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Planespotting
Posted 2005-03-30 04:05:27 and read 18161 times.

well, say an American women-citizen has a child on a plane going from the US to Britain. From my understanding he/she is given dual citizenship in both countries until he/she turns 18. then the adult chooses which nationality they want to be.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Art
Posted 2005-03-30 04:06:10 and read 18156 times.

Short and sweet. Thanks for that info, Gulfstreamguy.

Edit: Sorry, lots of posts before I could answer. Thanks for all the info. Not so simple after all, it seems...

[Edited 2005-03-30 04:11:41]

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2005-03-30 04:13:05 and read 18126 times.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 4):
From my understanding he/she is given dual citizenship in both countries until he/she turns 18. then the adult chooses which nationality they want to be.

This is incorrect.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Planespotting
Posted 2005-03-30 04:17:16 and read 18115 times.

well gosh darnit. i remember asking my civics teacher in 8th grade and thats the exact explanation he used.

stupid mr. radtke

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2005-03-30 04:18:15 and read 18109 times.

Had a couple of these incidents about 15 years ago working for DL.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2005-03-30 04:25:41 and read 18081 times.

The link below should explain where a child is born to an American citizen outside the USA, which could apply to on a foreign aircraft or ship. Basicly, the American Citizen birth parent is to register that birth with the nearest US Counsular office or Embassy office, and the line of American Citizenship is by the Amerian citizenship of one of the parent. In some cases, proof of paternity may have to be presented for a declaration of citizenship for the born child. Of course, you still have a lot of fun comming into a country without a passport...that must make customs and immigration fun ('do have anything to declare that you got during your visit...')
http://travel.state.gov/family/family_issues/birth/birth_593.html

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2005-03-30 04:28:33 and read 18066 times.

I would think Boeing7E7 is on the right track. I don't see why you would get dual citizenship just because you were born on a foreign carrier or in foreign airspace. You'd most likely get the citizenship of your parents I would think.

On a positive note, you might get free tickets for life though!  Smile

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: BAxMAN
Posted 2005-03-30 04:29:11 and read 18069 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
The Birthplace is that of the air carrier's flag. The citizenship is that of the parents. As an example, if you are born of British parents on an American Airlines Flight to London, your place of Birth is Dallas (The airlines business address of record), Texas and your citizenship is British

Really? So a Japanese chick flying SIN - MEL on BA has her child early and thus its place of birth is London??? Someone with the misfortune to fly FR from HHN to BGY not only has to buy a new ticket for their infant, but the aforementioned infant's place of birth is Dublin??? Although every country in the world has a corrupt and illogical legal system, this would seem too illogical - even by a lawyer's standards.

I think Gulfstream Guy's response (reply 1) sounds accurate and then the nationality of the baby is then determined by each individual country's own laws, so in the UK we would look at the domicile of the parents (father takes precedence, if I remember correctly from my Conflicts of laws studies) and the intentions of the parents as to where they were going to permanently reside, to decide whether the newly delivered is entitled to British citizenship.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2005-03-30 04:34:06 and read 18038 times.

Quoting BAxMAN (Reply 11):
Someone with the misfortune to fly FR from HHN to BGY not only has to buy a new ticket for their infant

Now, thats funny! Thanks... bigthumbsup 

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: PlaneSmart
Posted 2005-03-30 04:38:50 and read 18015 times.

Too many expectant mothers came to NZ to give birth, child had NZ citizenship, parents then sought to settle in NZ with their child.

That loophole closed last year - child now has citizenship of parent/s.

Birthplace would be destination airport, but no longer = to citizenship in most countries.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: FLflyguy
Posted 2005-03-30 04:43:51 and read 17996 times.

My understanding is that an aircraft is considered territory of the country in which it is registered. I remember years ago when I used to work at IAD a couple of instances where with Aeroflot, the Soviets would rush someone onto one of their planes and the U.S. police could not retrieve them (i.e., in the case of a defector, etc.) since the aircraft was considered Soviet soil.

In the case of a birth in-flight, the child can obviously claim citizenship of the parents in the normal way. Whether they can claim citizenship of the country of the air carrier depends on that nation's laws: is a child born in that country automatically eligible for citizenship? In the US, that is the case. A child born in the US can claim US citizenship regardless of the citizenship of the parents. That is one reason why at AA we try to be very careful about transporting pregnant women who are close to delivery - in some of the countries we fly to, a woman would give just about anything for her child to have US citizenship and we have fairly frequent occurrences where she will try to hop a flight literally while she is in labor. Of course, we usually notice that fact and refuse to transport her on medical grounds (since it is obviously best for a child to be born in a more appropriate and supportive environment than an aircraft!).

Now, as to what exactly the birth certificate would read I have no idea!

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Skyhawk
Posted 2005-03-30 05:02:25 and read 17918 times.

Boeing7e7 has it mostly right. If his imaginary child is on American between Dallas and London, the child does have rights to claim American citizenship, but the child is not deemed to have been born in Dallas. The child's birth certificate lists the birthplace as the longitude and latitude at the time of birth. This happened years ago on a Pan Am flight between the African continent and New York. The birth was in the middle of the Atlantic and as I said the birthplace was latitude and longitude.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Trolley Dolley
Posted 2005-03-30 05:03:28 and read 17917 times.

I was on a flight where a lady gave birth across the aisle from me. It was a British Airways 747 Harare to Lonodn in 1990. The little boy was born over Chad. The birth place was listed as International Airspace. This avoids claims to citizenship against the airspace of the country, the home country of the airline and the country of arrival- in case the flight has to divert for medical reasons- and allows the citizenship to be sorted out in a calm way. Given the event is rare, the rules are applied as if the parent gave birth at the arrival destiantion. As already mentioned, this does not entitle automatic citizenship of the arrival destination.

In my case, the little boy was granted UK citizenship as he would have been entitled to it anyway.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: NWADC9
Posted 2005-03-30 05:12:08 and read 17888 times.

Question: What would someone that late in pregnancy be doing on an airplane in the first place!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?

Quoting Skyhawk (Reply 15):
The birth was in the middle of the Atlantic and as I said the birthplace was latitude and longitude.

Cool, a baby fish! Silly

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2005-03-30 06:14:33 and read 17775 times.

Outside the territorial borders, the national registration of the airline, like that of a ship, will determine the issuer of the birth certificate. As to the USA, the citizenship is per that of the parent(s), as noted in my previous post.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Thucydides
Posted 2005-03-30 08:49:43 and read 17625 times.

Quoting FLflyguy (Reply 14):
Whether they can claim citizenship of the country of the air carrier depends on that nation's laws: is a child born in that country automatically eligible for citizenship? In the US, that is the case. A child born in the US can claim US citizenship regardless of the citizenship of the parents.

FLflyguy has it correct. It all depends on the laws of the country where the child's parents have citizenship and the laws of the country in which the child is born.

So the determination would be based on what ever laws govern who has jurisdiction over the plane, and I would imagine that there are conflicts in the law on this matter between jurisdictions. Some might also argue that until you clear immigration, you are not in a country, whereas in other countries, you may only have to have touched land to reap the citizenship benefit.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: RDUDDJI
Posted 2005-03-30 09:06:45 and read 17591 times.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 17):
Question: What would someone that late in pregnancy be doing on an airplane in the first place!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?

That was exactly what I was thinking!

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: RootsAir
Posted 2005-03-30 09:14:29 and read 17577 times.

I thought that after a certain weeks of gestation women were not allowed on board depending on the airline.Correct me if I'm wrong

Quoting Art (Thread starter):
Just wondered. When I was a small child I thought I had been born on a plane over the North Sea since I was told I was half English and half Norwegian.

so that means that if you were half english half scottish you'd be brn an Hadrian's wall  Wink

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Berlinflyer
Posted 2005-03-30 09:31:29 and read 17539 times.

According to german citizenship, this requires at least one parent of german nationality. It doesn´t matter at all where you are born. So being born on Lufthansa is no way of getting german nationality if not one of your parents isn´t anyway.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: DeltaWings
Posted 2005-03-30 09:41:23 and read 17527 times.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 21):
so that means that if you were half english half scottish you'd be brn an Hadrian's wall

Hadrians Wall is not the border to England from Scotland  Smile


~DeltaWings

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2005-03-30 12:00:38 and read 17415 times.

The definitive answer is as follows.

The baby initially assumes the nationality of the MOTHER for immediate arrival formalities. Remember, the baby has to be classified as a national of some country to complete the paperwork when the plane lands! The nationality of the father is irrelevant until a birth certificate naming him as father is prepared, which cannot be done inflight. In the event of the mother becoming deceased at delivery, the child is treated as a ward of the state whose flag operation is being conducted, and NOT that of the state whose registration is carried on the aircraft (if it is different). If the mother carries dual nationality, then the nationality of the documentation used to make the current flight is considered to be the primary citizenship. The airspace being flown over at the time of delivery is totally irrelevant. The aircraft and all enclosed within it is considered to be the soil of the country whose flag it is flying and the child *may* be entitled to that nationality depending upon individual country laws on the issue. The birth certificate will read "International Airspace" as place of birth.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2005-03-30 13:04:57 and read 17329 times.

Quoting GulfstreamGuy (Reply 1):
From what I've heard, wherever the plane lands is where the official birthplace is. So if the plane lands in SYD then the baby's birthplace is Sydney

Pray that there Isn't an uncalled for Divertion.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: DIJKKIJK
Posted 2005-03-30 13:18:56 and read 17300 times.

Sometime in the 1960s, a friend of mine was born on a Pan Am 707 flying between LHR and JFK.
As she was born on an American Airliner, she was given American citizenship by birth, and she was given a voucher that could enable her to fly Pan Am at a discount for the rest of her life.

She did cry a lot when Pan Am went under !

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: TransIsland
Posted 2005-03-30 18:45:02 and read 17009 times.

Quoting Art (Thread starter):
You normally have an automatic claim to the nationality of the land in which you are born.

That is incorrect. It applies to some countries, but there are many countries that will not give you citizenship just because you're born there, unless your parents happen to be citizens of that country. Examples: Germany, Bahamas - but there's got to be others, too.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Art
Posted 2005-03-30 19:07:24 and read 16805 times.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 27):
Quoting Art (Thread starter):
You normally have an automatic claim to the nationality of the land in which you are born.

That is incorrect. It applies to some countries, but there are many countries that will not give you citizenship just because you're born there

My understanding of what you have written is that normally you do not have an automatic claim to the nationality of the land in which you are born. News to me, but I've never checked to find out.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2005-03-30 19:14:11 and read 16751 times.

What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?

You're all wrong - it depends on the airplane...so if you're on a Boeing product, you automatically become an American, if you're on an Airbus product, you automatically become your choice any European nationality, and so on.  Wink

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Art
Posted 2005-03-30 19:33:17 and read 16598 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 29):
You're all wrong - it depends on the airplane...so if you're on a Boeing product, you automatically become an American, if you're on an Airbus product, you automatically become your choice any European nationality, and so on.

Forewarned is forearmed. I'll try hard to avoid being born on North Korean, Burmese, Zimbabwean etc airliners.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: COAMiG29
Posted 2005-03-30 19:42:00 and read 16513 times.

you belong to the airline for the resst of your life

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: TransIsland
Posted 2005-03-30 21:04:16 and read 15928 times.

Quoting Art (Reply 28):
My understanding of what you have written is that normally you do not have an automatic claim to the nationality of the land in which you are born. News to me, but I've never checked to find out.

I don't know the laws of that many countries and cannot say "normally" or anything. I just know that there are countries where you do not automatically get citizenship if you're born there if your parents are foreign nationals (see examples), just like there are countries where you do (sometimes with the exception that your parents have to be in the country legally).

There are also countries, where parents cannot pass on their citizenship to their children if they're born abroad. In the case of the Bahamas, a Bahamian mother can pass citizenship on only if the child is born in the Bahamas. A father can pass it on if the child is born abroad PROVIDED that he was born in the Bahamas. In dis wee country we thus have three different classes of citizens...  Sad

To get back to the topic:

I don't think there is a generic answer to the original question. It probably depends on the country of departure, the country of arrival, the country of the aircraft's registration as well as the nationalities of the parents and their marital status.

Of course there are scenarios where a child might be born in international airspace even though it's a domestic flight (continental U.S. - Hawaii) or in the airspace of a foreign country although it's a domestic flight (Alaska, lower 48 - could be Canadian airspace) - and probably an awful lot of other complicated scenarios...

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: BCAL
Posted 2005-03-30 21:12:21 and read 15857 times.

B747-437B has given the correct answer in Reply 24. I have confirmed this with a solicitor friend who specialises in immigration issues.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Pope
Posted 2005-03-30 21:19:41 and read 15802 times.

B747-437B what is your source for this?

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: FLY2LIM
Posted 2005-03-30 21:23:12 and read 15770 times.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 21):
I thought that after a certain weeks of gestation women were not allowed on board depending on the airline.Correct me if I'm wrong

Generally speaking, after the seventh month you are now allowed to fly if.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
The link below should explain where a child is born to an American citizen outside the USA, which could apply to on a foreign aircraft or ship. Basicly, the American Citizen birth parent is to register that birth with the nearest US Counsular office or Embassy office, and the line of American Citizenship is by the Amerian citizenship of one of the parent. In some cases, proof of paternity may have to be presented for a declaration of citizenship for the born child.

My daughter was born in Peru and my wife, who was a US citizen, registered her at the consulate in LIM. We also registered her birth with Peruvian authorities, and my daughter has two passports. I do believe that at the age of 18 she will have to notify US authorities that she plans on continuing being a US citizen. However, she has Peruvian citizenship for life, regardless of dual citizenship.
When our second daughter was born in the US, we did the same. She too has two passports, although we never use the one from Peru.
Now that I'm a US citizen, I too have both passports, although the US expects me never to use the Peruvian passport in US soil, which I don't. My Peruvian passport isn't even current.

In the case of a baby born on an aircraft, I was under the impression that it received the citizenship of the country where the plane landed. I was also under the impression that any baby born aboard an aircraft receives free travel for the rest of their life.

FLY2LIM

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: FRAspotter
Posted 2005-03-30 21:23:40 and read 15764 times.

I always thought that it was where the plane landed and not the registration. What if the plane is wet leased?  boggled 

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2005-03-30 21:27:19 and read 15748 times.

Nationality does is not necessarily determined by the place you were born. For instance, I was born in Moscow, but my sister was born in San Francisco. Even though she was born in America, and has an American passport, she is still Russian. My whole family is Russian, and she is no exception. So it all depends on what the family situation is.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Bucky707
Posted 2005-03-30 21:29:21 and read 15738 times.

I don't care where you are born, your nationality should be that of your parents.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2005-03-30 21:55:04 and read 15571 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
The Birthplace is that of the air carrier's flag. The citizenship is that of the parents. As an example, if you are born of British parents on an American Airlines Flight to London, your place of Birth is Dallas (The airlines business address of record), Texas and your citizenship is British.

It depends. If you are born on US soil (the plane) you can normally claim US citizenship. Same for a ship.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 4):
well, say an American women-citizen has a child on a plane going from the US to Britain. From my understanding he/she is given dual citizenship in both countries until he/she turns 18. then the adult chooses which nationality they want to be.

Dual citizenship rules vary from country to country. For example, you can be Swedish AND American at the same time, or Russian/Polish/Australian (yes I know a guy with triple citizenship). If both countries accept citizenship of the other country as well it's just a question of claiming both.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Trijetman
Posted 2005-03-30 22:25:23 and read 15399 times.

This is a great and very interesting thread! I'm not sure if we'll come up with THE right answer - suppose it depends on many factors and laws and regulations change all the time.

Imagine, by circumstance, your child would have a nationality that you don't like or that may cause disadvantage for the child... like a woman who is a muslim and the plane happened to be above Israel at the time of birth... or a little American being born in Cuban airspace...
Imagine also to fill out official forms and in "Place of birth" you'd have to put in the longitude and latitude of your birthplace - that would make life so much easier... try to get a social security card, passport or visa like that!!!

A lot of things to consider and maybe there's more than just one answer... maybe there are also options: People from many countries would like to have their child a US or any European citizenship.

Just a few things that came to my mind.

Happy flying everyone!

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2005-03-30 23:14:52 and read 15092 times.

Quoting Trijetman (Reply 40):
like a woman who is a muslim and the plane happened to be above Israel at the time of birth... or a little American being born in Cuban airspace...

Airspace doesn't count. The vessel counts.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Jtamu97
Posted 2005-03-30 23:34:04 and read 14983 times.

Do the airlines make you pay for an extra seat once you have the baby? J/K!! Anyways interesting topic and while we are at the what if's..What if the baby was born the precise moment the aircraft is crossing the interntional dateline? Would be neat for the mom to go into labor on wednesday and give birth on tuesday if there are any flights where that could happen.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Elagabal
Posted 2005-03-30 23:46:05 and read 14925 times.

Hi FLy2Lim,

Good to hear of someone else a bit like me - I have dual parentage, and both US and British nationality.

Art, TransIsland is right on the money. Check out Amnesty International, or certain other human rights organizations' websites: they do note the (undesirable) cases in which a nation does not automatically extend its nationality to children whose parents have that state's nationality. Egypt is one (in addition to the Bahamas, it seems); I'm sure there are others. Britain used to have such laws as well (until recently, you couldn't inherit citizenship from your mother, unless... It was needlessly complicated).

In any case, depending on the particular laws of the particular countries concerned, in certain circumstances a child born over international territory - or even foreign sovereign territory - might be stateless.

Both US and British nationality laws have undergone a HELL of a lot of revision over the past few years. I should know, I was a beneficiary of this!  Smile

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: AR385
Posted 2005-03-30 23:54:15 and read 14856 times.

TransIsland is correct, many countries don't have "ius soli" and won't give you the nationality of their flag carriers

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Avek00
Posted 2005-03-31 00:06:51 and read 14763 times.

"In any case, depending on the particular laws of the particular countries concerned, in certain circumstances a child born over international territory - or even foreign sovereign territory - might be stateless."

Completely untrue - B747-437B has provided the authoritative guidance on this issue.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: LH450
Posted 2005-03-31 00:38:34 and read 14597 times.

wow,
I didn't know that there is existing a Lufthansa flight from LA to Sydney Big grin...*jk*

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: FLY2LIM
Posted 2005-03-31 00:42:13 and read 14569 times.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 38):
I don't care where you are born, your nationality should be that of your parents.

Errrr, not true. Your nationality is determined by where you are born. If your parents are from a different country as you, then you may enjoy the benefit of that nationality as well. If your theory were true, what happens to the Australian who marries a South African and moves to Brasil and has a baby?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
It depends. If you are born on US soil (the plane) you can normally claim US citizenship. Same for a ship.

If you are born on US soil, or a territory of the US (like Puerto Rico), you are a US citizen. However, the law was changed. Your parents no longer get it automatically. They must wait until the US citizen is 18 and "claims" them for residence. This was changed because of the thousands of Mexican and Central American nationals who crossed the border to have a baby and, once born, all were able to get citizenship.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 37):
Nationality does is not necessarily determined by the place you were born. For instance, I was born in Moscow, but my sister was born in San Francisco. Even though she was born in America, and has an American passport, she is still Russian. My whole family is Russian, and she is no exception. So it all depends on what the family situation is.

Your sister was born in America and has an American passport. Her nationality is American. I think what you are saying is that she is Russian culturally and ethnically, being a descendant of native Russians. She is still an American, citizenship wise. She can also hold a Russian passport, at least until she turns 18. She would have to renounce her US citizenship.
US law respects "reciprocity", in other words, the laws of other countries regarding citizenship.

FLY2LIM

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: B707Stu
Posted 2005-03-31 00:43:53 and read 14556 times.

A friend of mine was born on an Aer Lingus trans-atlantic flight many years ago. She was given American citizenship because her MOther and Father were American. Not sure what her birth certificate said. I believe it was New York, NY, the flight's destination. She was born mid-Atlantic and the aircraft was met by an ambulance...

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2005-03-31 00:47:31 and read 14525 times.

That's a great Q.

I would guess
an Airbusite
a Boeinger
or
a McDonnell Douglasan

just kidding
safe

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2005-03-31 00:58:19 and read 14482 times.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 47):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 39):
It depends. If you are born on US soil (the plane) you can normally claim US citizenship. Same for a ship.

If you are born on US soil, or a territory of the US (like Puerto Rico), you are a US citizen.

Ok, I'll concede that. Big grin

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 47):
She can also hold a Russian passport, at least until she turns 18. She would have to renounce her US citizenship.
US law respects "reciprocity", in other words, the laws of other countries regarding citizenship.

Well, if US law respects reciprocity (which I don't dispute) and Russia accepts dual Russian/US citizenship, then she would not have to renounce US citizenship.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: AirWales
Posted 2005-03-31 02:15:13 and read 14209 times.

I did not think you were allowed to fly if you were that far pregnant?? Premature births are of course the exception.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Danialanwar
Posted 2005-03-31 02:27:47 and read 14153 times.

every country has its own rules, but I think a common denominator across the globe is that a child gets at least the citizenship of his/her father IRREGARDLESS of place of birth. Some countries grant citizenship / permanent residency if born on their soil, but I think that list gets shorter - those countries would have explicit rules that would apply. As with many other things, there is no universal law for this

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: EnviroTO
Posted 2005-03-31 02:37:51 and read 14117 times.

Citizenship is not always determined by where you are born. Some countries only give citizenship to people born of citizens. Every country gets to make its own rules.

US law does not respect reciprocity. If a US Citizen becomes a Canadian the US revokes US Citizenship. If a Canadian becomes a US Citizen Canada does not revoke Canadian citizenship. Once a Canadian always a Canadian, once an American not always an American... unless something has changed very recently. The US would like people that become US Citizens to be only US Citizens but they can't force other countries to revoke their citizenships.

Basically the rules are determined by the national government of the destination of the flight, the government of the nation the air carrier is from, and the government represented by the nationality of the parents. No single rule exists. Any country can decide to have rules that would end up with a child having no citizenship (stateless), or having multiple citizenships because of overlaps between the rules of various countries.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: RCS763AV
Posted 2005-03-31 04:11:14 and read 13822 times.

I think that if you are in international airspace you get the nationality from the airline your are flying. eg: if a baby is born on a Varig flight from GRU to CDG, and the plane is in international airspace, the baby will be Brazilian. If the plane is in a countries airspace, then the baby will be from that country (and in both cases it will have the parent´s nationality) this was said here in Colombia when a baby was born on an AV flight from CLO to JFK, the plane had to land in MIA so the baby was Colombian and I think Jamaican or something....

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Aeroflot777
Posted 2005-03-31 05:38:14 and read 13752 times.

FLY2LIM, Starlionblue,

Russia and the US do allow dual citizenship. She has both an American passport and a Russian one. I just applied for an American passport, and even when I get it, I am not considered an American!!!! When filling out important documents, both my sister and I fill out 'Russian" as a nationality, even though she was born here. In fact all the government offices told us to do so, it all depends on your family.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: TommyBoy
Posted 2005-03-31 05:52:25 and read 13738 times.

You're an illegal alien no matter where you are....

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: FLY2LIM
Posted 2005-03-31 05:56:43 and read 13737 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 50):
Well, if US law respects reciprocity (which I don't dispute) and Russia accepts dual Russian/US citizenship, then she would not have to renounce US citizenship.

Starlion, you got me there. I did not finish my statement (my mistake). I meant to say that she would have to renounce US citizenship if she wanted to be just "Russian". Sorry.

Quoting AirWales (Reply 51):
I did not think you were allowed to fly if you were that far pregnant?? Premature births are of course the exception.

My oldest daughter was due on Feb. 7, 96, actually born by cesarean in LIM on Feb. 3. My wife and I flew to the US to spend Christmas with her family and boarded a SFO-MIA-LIM flight on January 30, 95, way past the 7 month threshhold. Luckily, my wife was having a fantastic pregnancy and the peruvian doctor gave us a forged letter stating she was only 6 months along.  Smile

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 53):
US law does not respect reciprocity. If a US Citizen becomes a Canadian the US revokes US Citizenship. If a Canadian becomes a US Citizen Canada does not revoke Canadian citizenship. Once a Canadian always a Canadian, once an American not always an American... unless something has changed very recently. The US would like people that become US Citizens to be only US Citizens but they can't force other countries to revoke their citizenships.

In trying to prove me wrong, you proved me right. You just defined "reciprocity". The United States respects the wishes of the other country, thus they don't take away your passport if your country of birth accepts dual citizenship, as Peru does. I still hold my Peruvian passport. I was just warned never to show it to a US customs and immigration authority, which I never do. I don't even use the passport to travel. But, since Peru considers being Peruvian a "God given right", I keep it, just in case.
I think the scenario you were describing is different. You described an American becoming a Canadian. I have not done it that way, I did it the other way around, from being Peruvian to being American. But the statement "but they can't force the other countries to revoke their citizenships" describes reciprocity. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what my attorney explained to me. I became a citizen in 2000.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 55):
Russia and the US do allow dual citizenship. She has both an American passport and a Russian one. I just applied for an American passport, and even when I get it, I am not considered an American!!!! When filling out important documents, both my sister and I fill out 'Russian" as a nationality, even though she was born here. In fact all the government offices told us to do so, it all depends on your family.

Aeroflot, are you speaking from the Russian perspective, that is, the government of Russia? I cannot speak to that, obviously. However, as far as the Americans are concerned, once an American, always an American (and don't show us another passport).
Good luck with your paperwork!

FLY2LIM

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Lincoln
Posted 2005-03-31 06:17:53 and read 13705 times.

Quoting Skyhawk (Reply 15):
The birth was in the middle of the Atlantic and as I said the birthplace was latitude and longitude.

Uggh, if true, that would be painful when dealing with (US) financial institutions and others that use place of birth as a verification:

Customer Service Agent: For security, may I have your place of birth?
Person: [Mumble], California

--or--

Person: 133.0291 West, 76.3458 North

Lincoln

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2005-03-31 12:20:45 and read 13617 times.

Quoting AirWales (Reply 51):
I did not think you were allowed to fly if you were that far pregnant?? Premature births are of course the exception.

Lots of lying mothers out there.

Quoting Danialanwar (Reply 52):
every country has its own rules, but I think a common denominator across the globe is that a child gets at least the citizenship of his/her father IRREGARDLESS of place of birth. Some countries grant citizenship / permanent residency if born on their soil, but I think that list gets shorter - those countries would have explicit rules that would apply. As with many other things, there is no universal law for this

You mean the mother.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 53):
US law does not respect reciprocity. If a US Citizen becomes a Canadian the US revokes US Citizenship. If a Canadian becomes a US Citizen Canada does not revoke Canadian citizenship. Once a Canadian always a Canadian, once an American not always an American... unless something has changed very recently. The US would like people that become US Citizens to be only US Citizens but they can't force other countries to revoke their citizenships.

You just contradicted yourself. The US does respect reciprocity, as you point out in the last sentence.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 54):
I think that if you are in international airspace you get the nationality from the airline your are flying. eg: if a baby is born on a Varig flight from GRU to CDG, and the plane is in international airspace, the baby will be Brazilian. If the plane is in a countries airspace, then the baby will be from that country (and in both cases it will have the parent´s nationality) this was said here in Colombia when a baby was born on an AV flight from CLO to JFK, the plane had to land in MIA so the baby was Colombian and I think Jamaican or something....

As has been repeatedly pointed out, not necessarily.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Airsicknessbag
Posted 2005-03-31 13:52:27 and read 13571 times.

Tsk, the thing is settled since reply 24, and here we are at reply 60…

It is completely irrelevant whether you’re born in Enid/Oklahoma, aboard the USS Anyship or aboard N12345US – you’re born on US soil. And if N12345US is a MX DC9 flying domestically within Mexico, no matter. Like this, it works with every other country, a country’s soil extends to all ships and planes registered there.

Citizenship laws are a completely different matter, you’ll have to consider the laws of the appropriate countries, i.e. the countries of mother’s and father’s nationality as well as the country of the place of birth.

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 24):
The baby initially assumes the nationality of the MOTHER for immediate arrival formalities. Remember, the baby has to be classified as a national of some country to complete the paperwork when the plane lands! The nationality of the father is irrelevant until a birth certificate naming him as father is prepared, which cannot be done inflight. In the event of the mother becoming deceased at delivery, the child is treated as a ward of the state whose flag operation is being conducted, and NOT that of the state whose registration is carried on the aircraft (if it is different). If the mother carries dual nationality, then the nationality of the documentation used to make the current flight is considered to be the primary citizenship. The airspace being flown over at the time of delivery is totally irrelevant. The aircraft and all enclosed within it is considered to be the soil of the country whose flag it is flying and the child *may* be entitled to that nationality depending upon individual country laws on the issue. The birth certificate will read "International Airspace" as place of birth.

Daniel Smile

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Centrair
Posted 2005-03-31 14:29:37 and read 13533 times.

My grandfather was born on a ship between Naples, Italy and New York with a final destination of Chicago. This was back in 1907 but his birth certificate read "Chicago?". I am told that when asked where the baby was born my great grandmother didn't understand and said the final destination instead so it was written as "Chicago?".

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Elagabal
Posted 2005-03-31 16:57:13 and read 13459 times.

Hi Avek00,

Remember: the text is accurate, yes. But it is written in lawyerese.

Quoting Art (Thread starter):
"In any case, depending on the particular laws of the particular countries concerned, in certain circumstances a child born over international territory - or even foreign sovereign territory - might be stateless."

Completely untrue - B747-437B has provided the authoritative guidance on this issue.

Errm, perhaps I'm the one confused here, but I think you should read what B747-437B said a bit more carefully. I think you jumped to conclusions that are not necessarily specified in the text.

I also think there's one point in B747's text that needs to be looked at carefully.

Quoting Art (Thread starter):
Remember, the baby has to be classified as a national of some country to complete the paperwork when the plane lands! [...]. In the event of the mother becoming deceased at delivery, the child is treated as a ward of the state whose flag operation is being conducted, and NOT that of the state whose registration is carried on the aircraft (if it is different). [...] If the mother carries dual nationality, then the nationality of the documentation used to make the current flight is considered to be the primary citizenship. [...] The aircraft and all enclosed within it is considered to be the soil of the country whose flag it is flying and the child *may* be entitled to that nationality depending upon individual country laws on the issue. [...].

Sentence by sentence:

(Sentence 1) The baby has to be classified as a national of somewhere in order for the paperwork to be complete. Yes indeed, all the blanks must be filled in. If it has no nationality, if it cannot inherit a given nationality through its mother, the papers will reflect this. They will simply say, "stateless." SEE BELOW.

(Sentence 2) A ward of the state is not the same thing as a citizen / national.

(Sentence 3) What happens if the mother carries only a single nationality? The child's status refers back to the laws to which its mother is subject.

Also, what about this phrase - "the nationality of the documentation used to make the current flight is considered to be the primary citizenship"

Errrrm, no. Just because you're born in a country, and registered on that country's paper by that countrie's authorities as having been born there, does *not* always mean that you'll be that nationality. Many people on this thread have explained this.

I think this was probably a slip of the tongue rather than a mistake on B747's part. Then again, what makes this information definitive? Where does it come from?

(Sentence 4) B747 wisely underlined *MAY*, which does not mean the same thing as *WILL*.

***********

Check out the sites belonging to the UNHCR, Amnesty International, and the US Department of State, regarding the right to a citizenship and nationality under specific countrys' laws. You'll find this in individual country profiles. (Time consuming, but informative.) It is possible for people to be born without a nationality, especially if the laws of the country their mother comes from are sexist. If the child lands in such a country, God help them both.

It's not always a nice world, and not all laws are humane. I know people who have to travel on UN refugee papers because of injustices like this.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Elagabal
Posted 2005-03-31 17:00:47 and read 13453 times.

PS - My mistake above - I said B747's text was accurate initially - but as you can see I took issue with a portion of it later. I'm sorry for not having corrected the earlier comment (i.e., the text is not completely accurate after all).

Gee, and I even edited it once...  banghead 

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: GARUDAROD
Posted 2005-03-31 17:48:50 and read 13422 times.

Great topic!.
Ok, under this scenario, which is actually true except for the birth.
A baby is born on a flight from LAX to Indonesia on a GARUDA flight,
however the plane is leased from South African Airways through a bank in Singapore, flies under a 3B-reggo and the plane has to divert to Australia
and for the good measure the crew is Irish. What is the nationality of the
baby??????

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2005-03-31 21:33:32 and read 13321 times.

Quoting Elagabal (Reply 62):
what makes this information definitive? Where does it come from?

ICAO

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: B747-437B
Posted 2005-03-31 21:40:35 and read 13284 times.

Quoting Elagabal (Reply 62):
I think you should read what B747-437B said a bit more carefully. I think you jumped to conclusions that are not necessarily specified in the tex

The context of my post deals solely with how the child is treated for the purpose of immediate action (in this case, how the child is treated upon arrival). Subsequent citizenship acquisition or renunciation and the formalities related with the same are not regulated on a universal basis and are hence country specific as many people point out here.

Quoting Airsicknessbag (Reply 60):
if N12345US is a MX DC9 flying domestically within Mexico, no matter. Like this, it works with every other country, a country’s soil extends to all ships and planes registered there

If N12345US was operating INTERNATIONAL FLAG OPERATIONS for Mexico at any time however, it would also be considered the soil of Mexico and it would be Mexico that assumed custody of a child born inflight should the mother become deceased.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Avek00
Posted 2005-03-31 21:47:36 and read 13267 times.

"The context of my post deals solely with how the child is treated for the purpose of immediate action (in this case, how the child is treated upon arrival). Subsequent citizenship acquisition or renunciation and the formalities related with the same are not regulated on a universal basis and are hence country specific as many people point out here."

Exactly - ultimately, the child may indeed be stateless at some point in the future as a result of flukes in citizenship laws, but will NOT be stateless when he or she arrives at the destination airport or in the immediate period thereafter.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2005-03-31 22:01:26 and read 13254 times.

Since certain rules of ships and aircraft as to international sea/air space are similar, try this: Someone my Father knew was born on a Swedish registered ship in international waters on a saling from Italy to New York (this was back in the 1940's?). The parents were legally immigrating from Italy to the USA. The child had to have a birth certificate issued by the Swedish government, with the birth verification information supplied by the ship's doctor and Captain. The child was still considered Italian for citizenship purposes upon landing in the USA. The place of birth would be in 'international waters' on a Swedish ship.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Elagabal
Posted 2005-04-01 05:05:57 and read 13146 times.

B747-437B, Avek00:

Thank you both for the specifications / corrections. Guess I jumped to some conclusions myself! Good call also in quoting the source (ICAO).

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-04-01 07:03:44 and read 13117 times.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 4):
well, say an American women-citizen has a child on a plane going from the US to Britain. From my understanding he/she is given dual citizenship in both countries until he/she turns 18. then the adult chooses which nationality they want to be.

The US used to "encourage" people to do this, but at 21. Now the State Department take little interest in such things and just ignores all other nationalities.

Quoting Berlinflyer (Reply 22):
According to german citizenship, this requires at least one parent of german nationality. It doesn´t matter at all where you are born. So being born on Lufthansa is no way of getting german nationality if not one of your parents isn´t anyway.

That law has changed in recent years because of charges of international right violations of Turks. Additionally, iit can be a far smaller percentage to get german nationality

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 35):
I do believe that at the age of 18 she will have to notify US authorities that she plans on continuing being a US citizen. However, she has Peruvian citizenship for life, regardless of dual citizenship.

She does not have to notify the US government of anything. I was born with dual nationality (soon to have 3 passports) and had to do no such thing when I turned 18

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 37):
Nationality does is not necessarily determined by the place you were born.

Yes it is. Ethnicity is not determined by the place you are born

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 50):
Well, if US law respects reciprocity (which I don't dispute) and Russia accepts dual Russian/US citizenship, then she would not have to renounce US citizenship.

The US does not respect reciprocity. They just consider all citizens of the US citizens of the US only, no matter their actual status

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 53):
If a US Citizen becomes a Canadian the US revokes US Citizenship. If a Canadian becomes a US Citizen Canada does not revoke Canadian citizenship.

No the US does not expatriate someone for becoming a citizen of a different state.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2005-04-01 12:19:06 and read 13051 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 50):
Well, if US law respects reciprocity (which I don't dispute) and Russia accepts dual Russian/US citizenship, then she would not have to renounce US citizenship.

The US does not respect reciprocity. They just consider all citizens of the US citizens of the US only, no matter their actual status

If they are citizens of another country as well and the US, and the US does not force them to renouce their other citizenship, the US respects reciprocity. Your statement does not hold water.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Oftwftwoab
Posted 2005-04-01 15:25:58 and read 12992 times.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 53):
If a US Citizen becomes a Canadian the US revokes US Citizenship.

This is incorrect. The US constitution states that anyone born in the USA is an American citizen. There are no qualifications on this at all.

Janet Daley, a well-known journalist in the UK was born and brought up in the US, but she has spent most of her adult life working in the UK. Eventually she took UK citizenship. She was asked to return her US passport, but the US courts held that her American citizenship remained and couldn't be revoked.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Bearcuban12
Posted 2005-04-01 16:01:35 and read 12960 times.

I seem to remember that their is a world record of over 1000 pax on a B747 flying an evac flight out of Ethiopia.
During that flight a baby was born.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Gearup
Posted 2005-04-01 17:51:51 and read 12909 times.

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 26):
Sometime in the 1960s, a friend of mine was born on a Pan Am 707 flying between LHR and JFK.
As she was born on an American Airliner, she was given American citizenship by birth, and she was given a voucher that could enable her to fly Pan Am at a discount for the rest of her life.

Born on a 707! Awesome!  cool 

GU

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: MD11Engineer
Posted 2005-04-01 18:37:51 and read 12868 times.

Art,

In the case of a child being born on LH plane, it would have German citizenship only if either on of it´s parents was German citizen at the time of birth (plus the citizenship of country the other parent comes from). The only exception would be if the child was born on German soil by foreign parents living in Germany on a long term residence visa as immigrants (not as tourists, students or short term business visitors). Then the child, while initially having only the citizenship of the parents, could apply for a German citizenship as well.
In all aspects the aircraft would be considered German territory.

I had a girlfriend in secondary school, who had three citizenships: Her mother was Taiwanese, her father German and she was born in the US.

Jan

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: IMatAMS
Posted 2005-04-01 18:39:46 and read 12866 times.

If you're born aloft, you don't get any citizenship....You'll get a frequent flyer card instead.....

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-04-01 18:42:20 and read 12865 times.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 71):
If they are citizens of another country as well and the US, and the US does not force them to renouce their other citizenship, the US respects reciprocity. Your statement does not hold water.

Actually, it does. They don't respect reciprocity, rather they ignore the conditions surrounding it. Whereas in France you can offically hold dual citizenship, in the US you cannot

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: FLY2LIM
Posted 2005-04-01 21:26:19 and read 12816 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 35):
I do believe that at the age of 18 she will have to notify US authorities that she plans on continuing being a US citizen. However, she has Peruvian citizenship for life, regardless of dual citizenship.

She does not have to notify the US government of anything. I was born with dual nationality (soon to have 3 passports) and had to do no such thing when I turned 18

You are mistaken. As you noted earlier, the US basically ignores anything else besides your American citizenship. If I'm not mistaken, you (N1120A) are Iranian and French, along with American, right? Have you ever tried entering the US with a French or Iranian passport? Let's see how well the US authorities take this. However, the countries that allow two citizenships will allow you to show both passports.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
The US does not respect reciprocity. They just consider all citizens of the US citizens of the US only, no matter their actual status



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 71):
If they are citizens of another country as well and the US, and the US does not force them to renouce their other citizenship, the US respects reciprocity. Your statement does not hold water.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 77):
Actually, it does. They don't respect reciprocity, rather they ignore the conditions surrounding it. Whereas in France you can offically hold dual citizenship, in the US you cannot

You obviously don't understand what "reciprocity" means. It was explained to me by both an INS officer (pre 9/11) and my attorney. Basically, in my case, Peruvian law allows for dual citizenship but American law does not. However, they US cannot impose their laws on Peru, so they cannot ever deny me what Peru grants me. Still, they expect me to only enter and exit the US with an American passport, but they are not allowed to require me to surrender a document issued by another independent nation. Thus, they respect "reciprocity", the laws of other nations that extend to those born in those nations.

FLY2LIM

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Starlionblue
Posted 2005-04-02 04:49:33 and read 12708 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 77):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 71):
If they are citizens of another country as well and the US, and the US does not force them to renouce their other citizenship, the US respects reciprocity. Your statement does not hold water.

Actually, it does. They don't respect reciprocity, rather they ignore the conditions surrounding it. Whereas in France you can offically hold dual citizenship, in the US you cannot

Yes but what exactly is the difference. As FLY2LIM states, the difference between doing it officially and just doing it seems rather insignificant.

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Lamedianaranja
Posted 2005-04-02 11:01:57 and read 12653 times.

So many replies and nowhere the limits to fly for expectant mothers! I'm always surprised when I see a big belly going on board and check the rules again: at KL you're allowed to fly up till 36 weeks of pregnancy, provided it's only 1 baby and no complications have occurred. Otherwise you need a medical statement.

Still, every once in a while we hear about aircraft being diverted because of births.

Dutch rules concerning citizenship were thankfully amended in 1986: one parent (not only the father) has to be Dutch, regardless of where the baby is born. They used to discriminate against mothers!

Being born on Dutch soil does not automatically give you the nationality, so being born on KL doesn't make you a Flying Dutchman!

Topic: RE: What Nationality Are You If Born Aloft?
Username: Danialanwar
Posted 2005-04-02 16:05:57 and read 12615 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 37):
Nationality does is not necessarily determined by the place you were born.
Yes it is. Ethnicity is not determined by the place you are born

That does not apply in all countries. Nationality is not necessarily determined by place of birth in all countries. I have a friend couple, both Singaporeans, gave birth to their child in Australia and the child is NOT eligible for Australian citizenship.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 59):
Quoting Danialanwar (Reply 52):
every country has its own rules, but I think a common denominator across the globe is that a child gets at least the citizenship of his/her father IRREGARDLESS of place of birth. Some countries grant citizenship / permanent residency if born on their soil, but I think that list gets shorter - those countries would have explicit rules that would apply. As with many other things, there is no universal law for this
You mean the mother.

Again, not all countries assign citizenship based on the mother's. I am Swiss, my wife is Singaporean ... our child is Singaporean only because the mother is Singaporean AND the child was born in Singapore. If the child was born outside of Singapore, it would NOT have become a Singapore citizen. I understand the ruling changed in the meantine.


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