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Topic: KLM In Problems
Username: Sndp
Posted 2000-04-03 09:01:42 and read 2100 times.

The Dutch television showed a report about KLM last weekend. A Dutch Aviation specialist and an MP both said KLM is at the moment in deep trouble and the reaction of the board to reduce capacity and fire 2700 people coud already be too late. Pressure on the board is huge, employees are not at all satisfied and some expect strikes at the Royal Dutch Airline. One of the main problems at the moment is the alliance with the Italian Flag Carrier Alitalia in which KLM has already invested a lot of money, but until now they have not gained anything by it. The alliance, which was announced to be the best and unique in Europe is now one of the worst. Main problem is the airport of Milan.
One could ask what has happened to KLM. Once such a healty and very well appreciated airline, it is now a company in big trouble. Will the board be able to resist the pressure of both their employees and the governement, stil the main share-holder?
sndp

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Tailscraper
Posted 2000-04-03 14:44:40 and read 1656 times.

I guess it's a fact of life for any employee, that rationalization of their Co. might lead(or almost inevitably does lead), to redundancies.

An unrelated, but relevant situation has being occuring in the UK. BMW owned Rover, a british car manufacturer. The Rover group has brought nothing but losses, so BMW was forced to sell it off-resulting in thousands of potential job losses.

I guess life is full of painful decisions and sacrifices.
Thanks for the post by the way, I had no idea KLM was in trouble.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Vuelo777
Posted 2000-04-04 21:01:54 and read 1617 times.

yeah it's a sad sad thing....

2 of my buddies who worked at EHAM in hanger 11 and 12 ... just got laid off a few days ago they both were mechanics  

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Barnaby
Posted 2000-04-04 21:52:11 and read 1608 times.

This is what happens when an excellent airline like KLM has to get into an alliance with a third-rate, third-world carrier like Alitalia. AZ have ruined KLM with their reckless nonsense regarding the new "Eurohub" at MXP which has been an absolute failure from start to finish. Now all the airlines have been allowed back to the closer-in Linate airport, and the Eurohub has collapsed.

KLM should get smart and get rid of AZ immediately.

Topic: Milan?
Username: Louis
Posted 2000-04-05 02:44:02 and read 1589 times.

What's the problem with the Milan airport?

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: TransatGuy
Posted 2000-04-05 17:28:29 and read 1570 times.

What was that, I think I read incorrectly!! Did you say "third-rate, third-world carrier like Alitalia"???? Since when is one of Europes most leading countries THIRD WORLD??? Buddy, where your gettin this info beats the crap outta me, but your entirly wrong. First and foremost, Alitalia is a terrific airline, from top to bottom. All airlines make thier mistakes, and yes maybe the Eurohub was one of them, but dont go calling a world class airline "third-world". I think having one of the hudbs in MXP was a great idea, they just have to work harder to get it workig better. Shame on you calling them "third-world"

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Barnaby
Posted 2000-04-05 17:36:30 and read 1560 times.

Why is it so hard to accept that that little bit of Africa just south of the Alps is a third-world country?

Alitalia a great, well-run airline! Don't make me laugh.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: VirginA340
Posted 2000-04-05 17:44:35 and read 1556 times.

Alitalia is one of the greatest airlines in Europe. I've had much more better service that on British Airways.Alitalia treats you like royaly compared to BA treating you like crap based on ethinic backround and where I'm from. At least Alitalia FAs don't mutter sentences such as "Damn hindus!" or Who does these bloody New Yorkers think we are; their servants!?! I'll still fly Virgin always but Alitalia is among my favorite carriers to fly with.

Topic: RE: Barnaby
Username: TransatGuy
Posted 2000-04-05 17:47:29 and read 1553 times.

Listen you jerk, it is a well run and respected airline, and it is far off being compared to africa. I'd love to see the day when someone (the wrong person) hears you say that.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: A330
Posted 2000-04-05 17:49:59 and read 1555 times.

Alitalia is not well run, in fact, they are known in the industry for their lack of competence.
KLM has got the picture now that the Alitalia way IS more or less the slow, incompetent way.
Italy is by no means a third world country, they have a booming economy, but Alitalia is still state run, and it shows.
I have ├╣mixed opinions about their service, most are not so good, I'm afraid, but on their last flight, in Magnifica Class, they showed me that they do have style and Italian flair.

Tino

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: TransatGuy
Posted 2000-04-05 17:50:36 and read 1552 times.

Finally, someone who knows someting....VirginA340 is totally correct in saying that about their class of service. I dont think you can find a better crew then that on an AZ flight, they make you feel at home, and make your flight as enjoyable as possible

Topic: RE: A330
Username: Barnaby
Posted 2000-04-05 17:54:48 and read 1554 times.

Well said A330.

Topic: Banaby
Username: Gagarin
Posted 2000-04-05 17:55:33 and read 1548 times.

Barnaby, you have posted one of the lowest and sadest commentaries on this discussion in a long time. Shame on you, you don't belong here.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Barnaby
Posted 2000-04-05 17:59:23 and read 1544 times.

Why is a comparison with Africa such a bad thing? What is so bad about Africa?

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Gagarin
Posted 2000-04-05 18:02:11 and read 1540 times.

It's not the comparison, it is the tone, the attitude.

Topic: RE:Barnaby
Username: TransatGuy
Posted 2000-04-05 18:04:18 and read 1543 times.

Dont try turning it around. Its not going to work. Its a shame that any country in the world is third-world, but dont go comparing one that is not to another that is. its not liks its unknown to anyone that it (africa) is a third world country. And NO i am not racist, nor do i hate Africa

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: BOS-CDG
Posted 2000-04-05 18:45:07 and read 1535 times.

I second what A330 said.

Most of the people in Italy will tell you that Alitalia is not the most organized airline...My friends living in Milan often complain and I experienced it myself in Linate after a snowstorm, schedule completely messed up ( I can understand that to a certain extent), very poor communication at the airport to tell you what's going on...All the signs of lack of control on the flow of events...

Having said that, each time I flew with them, despite the problems on the ground, yes the service was mostly excellent and the FAs very nice.

Italy -Third-world country....I hope it is a joke...

Alenia (competitor of Raytheon, Thomson-CSF, Lockheed...) is known to build one of the most advanced radars, military and civil. Their electronics and defense industry, just to restrict the discussion here,is up to par with what's best elsewhere (US, UK, France to name few countries...)

E.

Topic: RE: Thank You!
Username: AerLingus A330
Posted 2000-04-05 18:54:04 and read 1536 times.

I must thank everyone who has posted a comment (or multiple comments for that matter) on this subject, not necessarily for the topic being discussed but rather for the comical nature of some of them.

I'm not going to single anyone's particular message but I just want to say I've had a terrible couple of days and after reading these posts I had such a great laugh that I feel so much better!!

Keep up the good work!

Now, what was the subject being discussed again? (-:

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems Back To The Topic
Username: LJ
Posted 2000-04-05 20:09:26 and read 1516 times.

To get back to the initial topic. I have also seen part of that programme and I must say, to conclude from that programme that KLM is on the edge of bankruptcy is a little bit strange. Furthermore, if the viewer had more time to listen what they actually said on the programme he would have heard many times "what if.........." I don't have to tell anybody that this sort interviewing has only one purpose and that is trying to make the subject more interesting and increase the number of viewers (their leader in the promo was "KLM on the edge of collapsing") . Remeber also that this kind of reporting scores very good especially when it's about a Dutch company of which many are proud. The last point on this subject. None of the Dutch newspapers ran this story as the prgramme makers from 2Vandaag did (they can read).

As of the firing of 2,700 employees. Most of them are temps and KLM doesn't renew their contract when it expires. Furthermore, some will be goint into retirement and few to none will actually be laid off.

As of the KL/AZ/NW alliance being the worst I've to disagree. The AZ/KL alliance is the alliance which goes further than a simple marketing alliance. Both KL and AZ don't have any equity stakes in eachother (unlike SN - SR) and cooperate as if it were one airline. Furthermore, if fully implemented (and due to the MXP problems this can take a while) the alliance will result in KL and AZ fully intergrating their operations in a new joint venture. This means joint marketing, sales, planning and management. Can anybody point me to another allaince which have a joint management and operation and wherby both parties don't have any equity stakes in one another?

For those peolle who don't know what the MXP problem is I explain a little bit. When MXP opened last year Milan Linate should have been closed down. This move was determined by the Italian governement. However some airlines (notable BA and LH) didn't like to be forced to an airport far away from the business center (Linate is very close to the city unlike Malpensa). The airlines brought this case to the EU and won. For Alitalia this means that it has to focus on two airports in Milan (Malpensa and Linate). Moreover, as all of the intercontinental flights leave from Malpensa, AZ (and KL) is placed in bad position compared to LH and BA which can bring the passengers to Linate (close to the city). You see the problem for Alitalia. First there's the extra costs due to the two airports and secondly the competition can bring passengers closer to the city. Result: the expected gains and costsavings (due to one airport in Milan) haven't yet been realised.

Regards
Laurens Janssen

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Mas777
Posted 2000-04-05 23:01:49 and read 1507 times.

KLM should have kept AZ at an arms length to be honest. There was little harm in KLM investing in another carrier but merging the two carriers would ultimately lead to a loss of identity - which KLM had very much of.

I can't see how the passenger could benefit from the merging of these two airlines which are quite different in nature. From the point of MAS - which is widely tipped as the front-runner for the Australasian branch of 'Wings' - MAS has seen itself pushed into code-sharing with Alitalia, which MAS has gained little from. Alitalia has no plans to use Kuala Lumpur as a hub and vice-versa for MAS with Rome.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Mas777
Posted 2000-04-05 23:06:05 and read 1505 times.

KLM should have kept AZ at an arms length to be honest. There was little harm in KLM investing in another carrier but merging the two carriers would ultimately lead to a loss of identity - which KLM had very much of.

I can't see how the passenger could benefit from the merging of these two airlines which are quite different in nature. From the point of MAS - which is widely tipped as the front-runner for the Australasian branch of 'Wings' - MAS has seen itself pushed into code-sharing with Alitalia, which MAS has gained little from. Alitalia has no plans to use Kuala Lumpur as a hub and vice-versa for MAS with Rome.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Mas777
Posted 2000-04-05 23:08:25 and read 1496 times.

KLM should have kept AZ at an arms length to be honest. There was little harm in KLM investing in another carrier but merging the two carriers would ultimately lead to a loss of identity - which KLM had very much of.

I can't see how the passenger could benefit from the merging of these two airlines which are quite different in nature. From the point of MAS - which is widely tipped as the front-runner for the Australasian branch of 'Wings' - MAS has seen itself pushed into code-sharing with Alitalia, which MAS has gained little from. Alitalia has no plans to use Kuala Lumpur as a hub and vice-versa for MAS with Rome.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems Back To The Topic
Username: Heinz
Posted 2000-04-06 00:06:36 and read 1500 times.

My personal opinion is that it will be very difficult to integrate two companies with such different business philosophies, attitudes, and reputations.

It seems that two partners have found each other mostly because almost all potential partners in the world alliance game have become engaged elsewhere.

Being from the travel business myself, I experience every day that KLM is very well respected because of their reliability, good equipment and good connections in AMS, while many clients associate Alitalia with strikes, delays and stupid airport transfers in Milan.

It will probably need a lot of patience from KLM's side to combine their very professional approach to business with Alitalia's Mediterranian attitude.

I'll keep my fingers crossed... It can be in no one's interest to let the Star Alliance become too strong.
Arrogance is will be the result.

Considering the common opposition to LH, wouldn't it be smarter for KL to join the Oneworld Alliance ?
Your opinions, please...

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems/LJ
Username: Sndp
Posted 2000-04-06 00:11:47 and read 1498 times.

First of all, thank you LJ for coming back to the subject. I have posted the initial message as I have seen the programma. I never wanted to make any suggestion that KLM is at the end of its life. I justed wanted to say that they have problems. They where a very profitable airline, with high quality, but you cannot deny that they have problems at the moment. They have to reduce capacity, which means a lot. I have no doubt about the alliance with Alitalia going to work well in the future, but again, we have got to be honest and say it is not working today which means it is costing KLM money. And about the employess complaning, that was said by a union member and a MP, so who I'm I to question these people? I wish KML the best and a bright future.
sndp

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Barnaby
Posted 2000-04-06 00:12:08 and read 1503 times.

A better idea would be a new Wings alliance with NW/CO/KL/Malaysian and possibly HP or TW. AZ should be kicked out into the cold.

Then AZ can form an alliance with airlines that have similar operating philosophies: Sudan Airways, Burma Airways, Air Koryo, Aerolineas Argentinas. Reliabilty, no. On-time performance, you must be kidding. But you will get there somehow.

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Barnaby
Posted 2000-04-06 00:18:49 and read 1505 times.

<>

As long as AZ remains a state-run, pathetic airline, this cannot possibly be the case.

Time for Wings to kick out AZ. KLM has already wasted enough money with Alitalia. They have gained absolutely nothing for this investment.

Topic: MXP
Username: YMQ
Posted 2000-04-06 03:23:52 and read 1487 times.

Hi. It was my understanding that the Italian government passed a regulation that allowed AZ to continue operating in Linate but forced foreign carriers in Malpensa and that this was what prompted them to contest the rule before the EC...Is this correct?

Topic: Barnaby Just Keep Your Stupid Comments To Yourself
Username: Vuelo777
Posted 2000-04-06 04:34:01 and read 1495 times.

Barnaby just keep your stupid comments to yourself !!!

AZ is by far NOT a 3rd world carrier, sure they have problems but so does EVERY airline...the onboard and airport service is really good....so if you have a usefull comment i bet everyone inhere would love to hear it......IF NOT JUST SHUT THE **** UP!!!!!!!!!!

Topic: Censorship
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-04-06 05:02:57 and read 1498 times.

You know guys, I read all of Barnaby's posts on this thread. He is quite opinionated, and it seems like he gets flamed because his opinion is different from yours. While we have the right to disagree with him, it is senseless and intellectually repressive to ask him to keep his comments to himself. Would you like this board to only be posts where everyone agrees, and only says good things about everything?

I can see that now:

"I like blah airlines. They are the coolest."
"Yes! I agree. Blah rocks!"
"Blah is going to be the biggest airline, in the biggest alliance, and they will fly all Boeing and Airbus planes, and..."

Variety is the spice of life.

Yes, I know Barnaby's posts are edgy (possibly too much) but his opinions are just as valid as yours and mine.

Topic: More Comments
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-04-06 05:04:49 and read 1497 times.

One more thing. Barnaby, you could do yourself some good by not being so edgy. Sometimes you make valid points, but people ignore them because you're so pointed and getting under people's skin.

Italy is hardly Africa, and not all of Africa is third-world.

Topic: RE: KLM And MXP Vs LIN
Username: LJ
Posted 2000-04-06 20:46:24 and read 1473 times.

You're right when you say that AZ was granted permission to fly to and from LInate. However as far as I know this was only for the Milan - Rome shuttle service. All other services would be transferred to MXP (according to the winter KL/AZ timetable AZ planned to transfer all non-Rome flights to MXP somewhere in January). This include all non-Rome domestic flights. As I haven't been able to look in the new KLM/Alitalia timetable yet I don't know whether AZ really transfered all their flights.

As to the problems with KLM. I've trouble believing the management of KLM. They always want to give a picture which appears not to be true in the end. It's not the first time that this airline announced many lay-offs and after 6 months announces that they have not enough employees (it's becoming a regular feature). It's true that when KLM is cutting seven destinations the airline is not in a good shape. Time will tell if this time KLM has really some troubles. In my opinion KLM should not dump AZ. Strategically it would be stupid (as LH, BA and AF are very keen to work with AZ). Maybe, we'll have to wait longer than anticipated but if it works it would be great (not only for KL but also for AZ). I hope the politicians in Italy an the EU become to realise that if you pay millions of Euro's for an airport (MXP) it's better to use it to it's maximum capacity than not to use it at all (in other words close down Linate).

As to the people who have anything against Alitalia. In the Netherlands someone agrued (read speculated) that KLM is going to merge with Alitalia (KLM majority stake. If this happens (and I think it won't), you'll be pleased I think?

Oh before I forget. Alitalia is not a fully state-owned airline. It's quoted on the Milan exchange and will be in the MIB30 Index as from a couple of weeks.

Regards
Laurens Janssen

Topic: RE: KLM In Problems
Username: Tca256
Posted 2000-04-07 18:45:09 and read 1447 times.


Barnaby, poor sick guy....have you ever flown AZ
before posting your stupid post ? , furthermore how
can you talk like that about Africa as piece of s**t ??
is it just a joke ?? for people like me who have African
blood I expect not to see you one day.........sucker !!


Topic: RE: Tca256
Username: Barnaby
Posted 2000-04-07 23:16:36 and read 1437 times.

>>>Barnaby, poor sick guy....have you ever flown AZ
before posting your stupid post ? , furthermore how
can you talk like that about Africa as piece of s**t ??
is it just a joke ?? for people like me who have African
blood I expect not to see you one day.........sucker !!<<<

Actually I have flown AZ more than a few times. Their service just sucks and I have missed many connections because of their disorganized stupidity.

I wasn't talking about Africa as a piece of sh*t, on the contrary as I said above, even if Italy was in Africa what is the big deal? Africa is, by the way, in the third world.

That having been said, if you ever threaten me again I will beat the living crap out of you. Have a nice day.

Topic: Clear The Tarmac Barnaby
Username: Tca256
Posted 2000-04-08 18:20:36 and read 1429 times.

Mister Barnaby has flown a few times AZ and he thinks
he can judge them....fly them more than you did and
come back later.....



Leave me alone with your childish post,
get out of here and no need to answer me, a "third world man" like me don't need to spend his time answering a "third world brain" like you!!! ooh Barnaby,
why don't you move to a flightsimulator website or
such thing like that ?? I'm sure tons of kids wait for you....


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