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Topic: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Aseem
Posted 2005-04-26 03:20:09 and read 12139 times.

Airbus to IA: Take it or we'll sell it
NEW DELHI: The civil aviation ministry’s delay in procuring a Cabinet nod for Indian Airlines’ 43 Airbus aircraft acquisition plan is now threatening to push the $2-billion deal deeper into turbulence.

Airbus has warned that further delay in finalizing the order would force it to release the planes — blocked for IA — to other airlines that are queuing up for deliveries. This, Airbus V-P sales (India) Kiran Rao said, would disrupt planned delivery schedule for IA’s aircraft and is also expected to escalate cost.

“We can, at best, wait for 2-3 weeks for the government approval. We have been holding the delivery positions for all this while. If we do not get any information beyond 3 weeks, we will be forced to start releasing the delivery positions in favour of other airlines,” Rao said. Airbus, he said, has informed IA about the consequences of further delay.

The Economic Times

Airbus seems really desperate and they are right, why would they wait for IC when others are queuing up. Who know PP might want this order to in favour of Boeing too.
rgds
Aseem

[Edited 2005-04-26 03:23:54]

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: MidnightMike
Posted 2005-04-26 03:45:02 and read 12057 times.

Have to disagree with you, but, business is business. Airbus is completely within their rights if the buyer does not finalize a deal in time, to find another buyer. I can tell you right now, Boeing would do the same thing.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Aseem
Posted 2005-04-26 03:47:17 and read 12037 times.

Quoting Aseem (Thread starter):
they are right

quoting myself..i did say that they (Airbus) are right
rgds
Aseem

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: MidnightMike
Posted 2005-04-26 04:11:56 and read 11923 times.

Aseem

Half of an apology to you, the word "desparate" confused me as to which way you were leaning.

Cheers

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Aseem
Posted 2005-04-26 04:16:25 and read 11895 times.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 3):

never mind..have yourself a good one!
rgds
Aseem

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: VictorTango
Posted 2005-04-26 07:26:43 and read 11560 times.

Actually serves the Indian Government right. Hopefully this should speed up things. Good move by Airbus.

Olly

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2005-04-26 07:27:55 and read 11554 times.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 1):
Airbus is completely within their rights if the buyer does not finalize a deal in time, to find another buyer. I can tell you right now, Boeing would do the same thing.

Thats what is being taught in Business 101 in college.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Brons2
Posted 2005-04-26 07:37:11 and read 11516 times.

Good for Airbus, someone's gotta light a fire under their ass to DO SOMETHING.

They are stuck in an endless cycle: paraylsis of analysis.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-04-26 07:39:04 and read 11505 times.

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 7):
They are stuck in an endless cycle: paraylsis of analysis.

They actually analyze sth? I thought they sit in the ministries, "drink chaaii and panii" [tea and water, used as synonym for... guess] and reallocate the Indian taxpayers money..

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: MidnightMike
Posted 2005-04-26 07:52:04 and read 11475 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 1):
Airbus is completely within their rights if the buyer does not finalize a deal in time, to find another buyer. I can tell you right now, Boeing would do the same thing.
Thats what is being taught in Business 101 in college.

Oh my, is that where I learned that!  Smile

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: AirframeAS
Posted 2005-04-26 07:55:39 and read 11457 times.

LOL, MidnightMike!! LOL!! That is where you learned it. Did you forget your college years or were you too busy partying with the girls and getting drunk? LOL!!

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: GQfluffy
Posted 2005-04-26 07:58:57 and read 11433 times.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Thats what is being taught in Business 101 in college.

But you assume people actually passed that class!  rotfl 

fluffy

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2005-04-26 08:24:09 and read 11377 times.

Quoting Aseem (Thread starter):
“We can, at best, wait for 2-3 weeks for the government approval. We have been holding the delivery positions for all this while. If we do not get any information beyond 3 weeks, we will be forced to start releasing the delivery positions in favour of other airlines,” Rao said. Airbus, he said, has informed IA about the consequences of further delay.

It's interesting that Airbus is forcing the issue now. The majority of this order is

Quoting VictorTango (Reply 5):
Actually serves the Indian Government right. Hopefully this should speed up things. Good move by Airbus.

There is something weird here. Airbus has orders coming, and maybe there is some contention for the early slots, but Airbus is opening the door to competition and Boeing to get back into it.

I wonder how locked down this deal really is?

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-04-26 09:00:18 and read 11301 times.

Airbus has to be getting desperate if they are now blackmailing airlines

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Antiuser
Posted 2005-04-26 09:14:51 and read 11269 times.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 13):
Airbus has to be getting desperate if they are now blackmailing airlines

There's no blackmailing going on - it's business as usual.
Say, if I'm selling my car and you tell me you're going to buy it, you ask me to hold it for a week while you discuss the purchase with your wife... two weeks go by and I hear from other people interested in buying the car. Am I supposed to hold it for you indefinitely when I have other people who want to buy it? I'd be daft if I did!

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Khushdesi
Posted 2005-04-26 09:18:53 and read 11246 times.

i'd like to know who is knocking down airbus's door to get those slots...

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Antiuser
Posted 2005-04-26 09:35:07 and read 11188 times.

Quoting Khushdesi (Reply 15):
i'd like to know who is knocking down airbus's door to get those slots...

Among the carriers waiting delivery of A32Xs are jetBlue, America West, Air Asia, Iberia and Air Berlin.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: COUGARRIDES
Posted 2005-04-26 09:39:45 and read 11220 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
It's interesting that Airbus is forcing the issue now. The majority of this order is

The problem is that even though the IC board itself has voiced its decision favoring Airbus as its choice, the civil-av minister is now hellbent on forcing IC to go for Boeing as well. There was one move last week, answered fittingly with protests from pilots and management alike, to force IC to lease in 767's rusting away in the desert. This was a repeat of the whole 777s in AI deal: where AI mgmt had chosen A340-300's but suddenyl the 777's managed to find their way in: no thanks to a corrupt minister and equally corrupt managers in AI.

Naturally Airbus is worried that the IC order may also swing the other way. I mean with a man like Prafull Patel in charge, you cant expect decisions to be taken based on merit!! Airbus is perfectly right is seeking a quick end to this nonsense. There are other airlines, like Kingfisher and Deccan who could use some of the delivery slots that Airbus had kept aside for IC.

Sadly, IC's relationship with Airbus (or rather the French aviaition industry) goes way back to the '50's and has been a very mutually beneficial relationship. Sadly that is threatened today because of Prafull Patel.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2005-04-26 09:59:01 and read 11105 times.

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 7):
They are stuck in an endless cycle: paraylsis of analysis.

 Smile

Well If Airbus gets the message accross,We might see IC A320s soon.Else IC going the Boeing way.
Indian Aviation Always Interesting Like a Thriller.

Airbus Is correct in its decision.The way Time delays are a part of Indian Aircraft procurement process,Its about time.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: TGV
Posted 2005-04-26 14:29:30 and read 10848 times.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
This was a repeat of the whole 777s in AI deal: where AI mgmt had chosen A340-300's but suddenyl the 777's managed to find their way in: no thanks to a corrupt minister and equally corrupt managers in AI.

Corrupted !!! By who ??? Do you dare to say that an American company/government could corrupt somebody ??
Don't you know that only "foreign" countries (especially us French, of course) do that ?

My god, be prepared to receive a well deserved chastisement from the US of A.
 duck 

 Wink

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2005-04-26 14:48:16 and read 10757 times.

The most hypocritical thread I've ever read on this forum.

Airbus pulls this crap and they then accuse Boeing of twisting arms?

And of course, France never uses it's political clout to influence anything. Why, over there in Europe all the governments over there are as pure as snow.
 butthead 

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Leskova
Posted 2005-04-26 14:56:13 and read 10721 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
Airbus pulls this crap and they then accuse Boeing of twisting arms?

You know, if you had actually read what this thread is about, you wouldn't post something like that...

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
And of course, France never uses it's political clout to influence anything

Not much more, or less, than a certain - quite large - country on the other side of the Atlantic... it's just that France has much less "political clout" than that other country I'm talking about...

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
Why, over there in Europe all the governments over there are as pure as snow.

Anyone who believes that should seriously seek psychological help...

Regards,
Frank

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Monteycarlos
Posted 2005-04-26 16:10:04 and read 10535 times.

They may have thrown the deal as it went to Boeing...

Either Airbus is stepping on toes or it seriously doesn't care about winning orders from IA anymore!

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: TrevD
Posted 2005-04-26 16:11:11 and read 10529 times.

I say GOOD for Airbus. Let 'em move those A320's to Deccan and Kingfisher - teach IA a lesson.

Force them to go get 737NG's from Boeing and the leasing companies. That'll teach them!!

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2005-04-26 16:11:45 and read 10524 times.

Quoting Khushdesi (Reply 15):
i'd like to know who is knocking down airbus's door to get those slots...

As at the end of March, Airbus A32x backlog was over 1000 planes. So maybe, just maybe, some of those airlines would like to receive their planes early? Possibly?  sarcastic 

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
Airbus pulls this crap and they then accuse Boeing of twisting arms?

Pulls what crap exactly? Did you read the thread?  butthead  Indeed!

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2005-04-26 16:22:21 and read 10471 times.

At the rate things are going we're going to end up with 737-800's and 737-900's in IC livery.

duck  Airbus fans out there  Smile )

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2005-04-26 16:29:30 and read 10396 times.

Quoting TGV (Reply 19):
Corrupted !!! By who ??? Do you dare to say that an American company/government could corrupt somebody ??
Don't you know that only "foreign" countries (especially us French, of course) do that ?

My god, be prepared to receive a well deserved chastisement from the US of A.

WTF.....The Qoutes arn't working or something.
Someone elses qoute with my Username.
 Smile

IC Should stick to Airbus,makes more sence.
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2005-04-26 17:01:44 and read 10280 times.

Quoting COUGARRIDES (Reply 17):
This was a repeat of the whole 777s in AI deal: where AI mgmt had chosen A340-300's but suddenyl the 777's managed to find their way in: no thanks to a corrupt minister and equally corrupt managers in AI.

You are throwing around allegations of corruptions rather easy and fast. Are there any investigations into this minster?

This is the issue with state run and owned business. Fleet decisions become very political. That's not particularly surprising.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Jush
Posted 2005-04-26 18:38:53 and read 9315 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
And of course, France never uses it's political clout to influence anything. Why, over there in Europe all the governments over there are as pure as snow.

WTH is that supposed to mean? shed some light on it or are u already at your psychatrist?

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: FlyMeToTheMoon
Posted 2005-04-26 18:46:48 and read 9184 times.

From The Economist June 12, 2003 - corruption seems to be a recurring issue. I am not passing any judgment here, just passing along the information so please draw your own conclusions.

"India ink

In March 1990 India's Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) filed a first information report (FIR). It was investigating allegations that Airbus had bribed highly placed public servants and others to induce Indian Airlines (IA) to order its aircraft.

In March 1986 state-owned IA had ordered 19 Airbus A320s, worth $952m, with an option for 12 more, later exercised. This was despite the fact that, when IA set up a committee in 1983 to recommend replacement aircraft for its ageing Boeing fleet, the A320 was not considered—it had not then been launched or flown. With approval from the Indian government, IA had in July 1984 paid Boeing a deposit for 12 Boeing 757s, large narrow-bodied aircraft.

Several civil servants and IA officials were named in the FIR. One name not on the list was that of Rajiv Gandhi, India's prime minister in 1984-89, who was killed in a bomb explosion in May 1991.

How has the CBI's investigation progressed in the intervening 13 years? Hardly at all, despite the hounding on public-interest grounds of the CBI in Delhi's High Court since 1998 by B.L. Wadehra, an anti-corruption lawyer based in Delhi. The Economist has examined the publicly available court documents—the CBI's status reports on its investigation are secret— from Mr Wadehra's litigation.

These papers allege, first, that in October 1984, weeks before Mr Gandhi, a former pilot, succeeded his mother, IA received an offer from Airbus for A320 aircraft, a smaller and less expensive plane than Boeing's 757. It required urgent attention. Second, that in November, the aviation ministry gave IA just three days to appraise the offer for Mr Gandhi's office.

Much later, in 1990, Indian Express, an Indian newspaper, reported a leaked manuscript note which showed that Mr Gandhi had decided at a meeting on August 2nd 1985 that IA “should go in for Airbus A320 aircraft”.

Rajiv Gandhi decided in 1985 that Indian Airlines “should go in for Airbus A320 aircraft”. Mr Gandhi's correspondence file on the deal mysteriously vanished. The court papers show that civil servants reconstructed 29 pages of the missing file for the CBI by obtaining copy correspondence from government departments. Remarkably, this task took seven years—and even then the reconstruction was only partial.

After the green light from Mr Gandhi, approvals from IA and government bodies were a formality. For instance, the IA board approved the Airbus order at a meeting on August 30th 1985, which started at noon. The quality of the analysis presented to the board on the competing offers was pitiful. The board considered only one criterion—comparative fuel efficiency. Even for that, the data were incomplete. The A320 with the engine chosen by IA had yet to be tried and tested anywhere; provisional data only were included in the report for Boeing 737s “since no technical data supplied by the company”.

But Boeing had not been asked for any. This was because two hours before the board meeting, at 9.50am, IA's managing director, who is named in the FIR as an alleged recipient of kickbacks, received a letter from Richard Elliott, then Boeing's regional sales director. Boeing offered to supply up to 35 of its 737 aircraft, its narrow-bodied rival to the A320, with a discount of $5m per plane. This would reduce IA's investment in new planes by $140m, stated Mr Elliott. IA's board brushed the offer aside on the grounds that “if Boeing was [sic] too serious...they [sic] could have made the offer earlier”.

The Delhi court has a withering opinion of the help Airbus has given the CBI. It allowed Mr Wadehra to add Airbus's Indian subsidiary to his action on the grounds that Airbus in France was not co-operating. Airbus told Mr Wadehra that French law forbade it from answering his questions. “[Airbus] sells its aircraft on their merits,” the firm insisted.

The court has castigated the CBI for its dilatory approach. It took the Indian authorities until 1995 to contact Airbus for information, only to be told that such requests should be routed through the French government. The CBI told Mr Wadehra, despite trying Interpol and diplomatic channels, it was not getting any help from the French government. The French embassy in Delhi in effect told Mr Wadehra to get lost when he wrote to ask why France was not co-operating.

Mr Wadehra's case is now topical. This is because in March last year, IA's board approved an order for 43 Airbus planes, worth around $2 billion. The order now needs government approval. However, in September 2000, the Delhi court ruled that the Indian government should not approve further purchases from Airbus until the CBI had obtained the information it wanted from the French.

The upshot of the IA story is that no serious attempt has been made to establish whether or not Airbus paid kickbacks to Mr Gandhi and associates. The CBI has not answered our written questions."

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: FlyMeToTheMoon
Posted 2005-04-26 18:50:53 and read 9122 times.

In fact, while we are on the topic here is the entire article.

Source - The Economist June 12, 2003.

The entire Economist article

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2005-04-26 18:50:54 and read 9122 times.

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 14):
Am I supposed to hold it for you indefinitely when I have other people who want to buy it? I'd be daft if I did!

A car does not net you $50 billion in orders and business for several years. If Airbus get's too pushy and loses all of it to Boeing then what have they gained by not sitting back a bit. Stupid and desperate move if you ask me.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: USAF336TFS
Posted 2005-04-26 18:53:09 and read 9074 times.

Quoting Jush (Reply 28):
WTH is that supposed to mean? shed some light on it or are u already at your psychatrist?

Thank you Jush for expressing my sentiments exactly!

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: TJCAB
Posted 2005-04-26 19:26:06 and read 8680 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
And of course, France never uses it's political clout to influence anything. Why, over there in Europe all the governments over there are as pure as snow.

Please, Airbus is a multi-national company.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Ken777
Posted 2005-04-26 19:58:44 and read 8298 times.

Airbus has every right to set a deadline, especially when there are production slots that can be rapidly filled. On the other side of the coin, Boeing would then have every right to go for the order as soon as Airbus cuts the slots. Just another industry story that will be interesting to watch.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: 707lvr
Posted 2005-04-26 20:47:27 and read 7737 times.

International commerce involves any tactic which could be imagined. Going public with one of them is not a very good idea.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: PIA777
Posted 2005-04-26 21:15:10 and read 7428 times.

Airbus just lost a big order to Boeing (Air Canada), I don't think they can afford to lose this deal.

PIA777

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2005-04-26 21:17:26 and read 7404 times.

Quoting FlyMeToTheMoon (Reply 30):
In fact, while we are on the topic here is the entire article.

Source - The Economist June 12, 2003.

Quoting a old investigation of Airbus and the previous government is not real informative to weither allegations of corruption are being thrown around now.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Cruiser
Posted 2005-04-26 21:35:08 and read 7193 times.

I love this! If Airbus wants to take away the slots, then I doubt the Indian Gov't will be too upset. The Indian Gov't realises that there is another supplier in the world. I am sure that Boeing would be more than happy to supply them with some comparable planes.

Cruiser

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2005-04-26 21:47:28 and read 7011 times.

Is this really good PR for Airbus, especially given Boeing's recent orders?

Honestly, even from a neutral stance, Airbus is basically saying "hey, all you airlines out there, buy our planes fast or we won't sell them to you!"

This would have been better kept under the table...I'm not saying it's wrong of Airbus, but the publicity is certainly NOT needed, and is presenting Airbus as the crying bully...

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Sanjet
Posted 2005-04-26 21:53:24 and read 6929 times.

Airbus has no other choice. The indian buraucracy has a history of taking a lot of time for these kinds of things...

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Bennett123
Posted 2005-04-26 22:06:41 and read 6746 times.

Raychuang

What makes you think that IA will choose Boeing. It is more likely that they will simply continue to ponder.

My understanding is that long periods of pondering are common where the Indian Govt is concerned.

PIA777

What have they actually lost. You assume that IA was going to place an order.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: ExFATboy
Posted 2005-04-26 22:20:39 and read 6560 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
Honestly, even from a neutral stance, Airbus is basically saying "hey, all you airlines out there, buy our planes fast or we won't sell them to you!"

No, Airbus is saying "we're not going to hold delivery slots bloody forever while you get your act together." Airbus isn't refusing to sell to Indian, just telling them if they don't finalize the order they go to the back of the line. Can't blame them, really.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Leskova
Posted 2005-04-26 22:31:48 and read 6414 times.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
Honestly, even from a neutral stance, Airbus is basically saying "hey, all you airlines out there, buy our planes fast or we won't sell them to you!"

Now imagine the following situation - AI's decision was made public today, but two years from now, the whole thing is still not signed because one or another committee still hasn't agreed to everything.

Do you honestly think that Boeing would still guarantee the same delivery slots that they're giving out now? Or don't you think that Boeing, too, would at some point say "Decide now, or someone else gets the slots - and we'll reaccommodate you as soon as we can"...

Regards,
Frank

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Morvious
Posted 2005-04-27 00:13:02 and read 5406 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 31):
A car does not net you $50 billion in orders and business for several years. If Airbus gets too pushy and loses all of it to Boeing then what have they gained by not sitting back a bit. Stupid and desperate move if you ask me.

What a Car is to a local car dealer, is a plane for Airbus.

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 36):
Airbus just lost a big order to Boeing (Air Canada), I don't think they can afford to lose this deal.

Well, they just fired the heat up a little. It seems to me they can use those slots better for others.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
Honestly, even from a neutral stance, Airbus is basically saying "hey, all you airlines out there, buy our planes fast or we won't sell them to you!"

No they don't. They just say that you have to decide, otherwise your slots will be used for someone that has made up his mind a little faster.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 39):
This would have been better kept under the table...I'm Not saying it's wrong of Airbus, but the publicity is certainly NOT needed, and is presenting Airbus as the crying bully...

Why do you think Airbus came up with this news?

And maybe Airbus isn't the crying bully. Behind the doors of Airbus, company's are maybe crying for a faster delivery. So, slots that are reserved could just pulled back a little, for orders that are actually ordered.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 38):
I love this! If Airbus wants to take away the slots, then I doubt the Indian Gov't will be too upset. The Indian Gov't realizes that there is another supplier in the world. I am sure that Boeing would be more than happy to supply them with some comparable planes.

Well, India doesn't buy planes if they don't need any. So, they need the planes that date. If they don't have them any time near that date, it will cost them money. They need to lease or buy other planes to fill the gab.
Airbus made them (following that article) a pretty good deal. If they decide to go for Boeing at the end, it will cost them even more money, or Boeing have to sell their planes to under the market price.
Nevertheless.. If India doesn't decide faster, it will cost them more money then now, no matter what way they follow.

That's how I see it.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: LifelinerOne
Posted 2005-04-27 00:26:01 and read 5287 times.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 43):
Now imagine the following situation - AI's decision was made public today, but two years from now, the whole thing is still not signed because one or another committee still hasn't agreed to everything.

Do you honestly think that Boeing would still guarantee the same delivery slots that they're giving out now? Or don't you think that Boeing, too, would at some point say "Decide now, or someone else gets the slots - and we'll reaccommodate you as soon as we can"...

Frank is right here! AI just agreed to take 28 B787-800's. Boeing has a big backlog for the B787 and customer demand is high. Now, a few years after the deal, Air India won't decide on the planes. Boeing will do exactly the same; they will fill the production slots in order to give new customers an earlier date of arrival of their planes.

This ain't threatening, this is just business as usual, but because Airbus just lost some big deals everything Airbus now does is being covered in the media very extensively.

Cheers!

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Antiuser
Posted 2005-04-27 01:06:55 and read 4897 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 31):
A car does not net you $50 billion in orders and business for several years. If Airbus get's too pushy and loses all of it to Boeing then what have they gained by not sitting back a bit.

Airbus has a product with great demand in the A32X series. There are lots of customers who are paying just as much or maybe more than IC for the same planes. If IC wants to sit on their arse and delay the deliveries indefinitely, it's only logical that Airbus passes the planes on to the next waiting customer. They can't make planes out of thin air, and a grounded plane makes no money (well, maybe for the airport authorities).

I'm sure Boeing would do the exact same thing were they in this situation.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-04-27 06:16:09 and read 3851 times.

Bottomline is:

It is good Airbus did that - they do not need to be treated by the Indian Govt like this - there is enough demand for 32X, no need og the GOI to demand special rights. Shame on the Government of India. Airbus has been holding long enough now (though negotiations were only recently concluded).

If it happens that for whatsoever reason IC has to order with Boeing, this would be a clear indicator of corruption. It makes no sense for IC to order the 73NG, with all tehse airbusses in their current fleet (I was upset too as AI decided for the 738 as opposed to the 32X). Boeing uses bad practices, too..

I just hope everything gets smooth and IC will order all these airbusses.. Everyone here whshing that IC will switch to Boeing shows that he hes no idea about Aviation Economics

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 38):
If Airbus wants to take away the slots, then I doubt the Indian Gov't will be too upset. The Indian Gov't realises that there is another supplier in the world. I am sure that Boeing would be more than happy to supply them with some comparable planes.

Thanks, but IC does not need the 73NG.. see above -

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Jwenting
Posted 2005-04-27 10:16:19 and read 3711 times.

Airbus misinterpreted the market and lost the deal.
It's called fair trade. Airbus had nothing to bribe the Indian government and instead resorted to threats. Even those were not enough to win them the deal (unlike Thailand where threats of trade sanctions worked to get them a deal).

IA orders the aircraft that best fit them, good decision for them.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-04-27 10:30:31 and read 3693 times.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 48):
IA orders the aircraft that best fit them, good decision for them.

Jwenting: I think you are misinterpreting:

IC (Indian Airlines) is about to order 42 Airbus
AI (Air India) has just announced to order about 50 Boeings

These are two different airlines, with separate boards.. so two different stories - this thread is on IC and Airbus (which is almost concluded). Airbus did not complain about unfair procedures but about the delay. You are referring to the AI thread, where Airbus complained.. hope this clarifies

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 48):
It's called fair trade.

I must have slept in my Economics Class, but my definition on FAIR TRADE is completely different

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2005-04-27 10:51:16 and read 3662 times.

Quoting Morvious (Reply 44):
If India doesn't decide faster

Quite Common out here.  Smile

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 48):
IA orders the aircraft that best fit them, good decision for them.

The A319/20/21s is the best deal considering their Existing fleet,it would be tragic if the Fleet was changed to Include only Boeings.[Speaking of IC only]
regds
MEL

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-04-29 06:56:07 and read 3350 times.

just FYI: The Economic Times of India reported yesterday that Civil Aviation Minister Patel is pressing the cabinet to flag off IC's deal with Airbus by end of this week.

I leave it uncommented but thought I let you know

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: NAV20
Posted 2005-04-29 07:28:30 and read 3319 times.

Very difficult to make sense of this in business terms.

Sure, Airbus are entitled to use a bit of muscle to get the horse into the starting gate. But what surprises me is that the announcement came from Airbus, not Indian Government circles. Putting the pressure on in private is one matter; publicly embarrassing the client, when you already have a smouldering row with him over another deal, is quite another.

And it gives 'aid and comfort to the enemy', too. I'm sure that Boeing's sales force is dusting off the 737 brochures and booking flights to India, just in case.......

The only business explanation I can think of is that Airbus is getting worried about cash flow a few years ahead. So they want as many firm commitments as possible on the books, even if it does mean abandoning their only remaining prospects in India.

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-04-29 07:46:10 and read 3295 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
I'm sure that Boeing's sales force is dusting off the 737 brochures and booking flights to India, just in case.......

I do not know why you are sure.. they would arrive here after the deal has become sealed

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: NAV20
Posted 2005-04-29 08:03:57 and read 3262 times.

Didn't you read the 'just in case' bit at the end of my post, Mrniji?  Smile

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: HAWK21M
Posted 2005-04-29 09:32:47 and read 3194 times.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 52):
And it gives 'aid and comfort to the enemy', too. I'm sure that Boeing's sales force is dusting off the 737 brochures and booking flights to India, just in case.......

Personally.Its nice to have all Types in the Country.From a Mx Exposure POV.
There was a time when Boeings were preffered by Pvt operators,that soon changed a bit a decade later.
Also the A320s of IA made things Interesting from Mx point of View.
Now The B737NGs & A320 series are the preffered Aircraft for Domestic Flights.

regds
MEL

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: Keesje
Posted 2005-04-29 09:42:40 and read 3173 times.

oh oh their are some obstacles for the deal :

India's arms purchase hits a roadblock

Political squabbling in New Delhi is threatening to blow apart India's massive US$15 billion-plus military modernization exercise, one that involves prominent arms manufacturers from a number of countries, including the United States, in the fray to win lucrative contracts.


http://indiamonitor.com/news/readNews.jsp?ni=7048

and for those still think the Air India deal has nothing to do with this..
 cloudnine   cloudnine 

However Boeing is already planning to implement some of the additional goodies:

Boeing may open facility in India
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/222149_indiaair29.html

Topic: RE: Airbus Threatens Indian Airlines
Username: JoyA380B747
Posted 2005-04-29 10:23:37 and read 3126 times.

Let's put it this way....AI-IA both goes for Boeing. Then we would say that Airbus would no more be in the No.1 spot. Boeing has US Govt. to pressurize Indians to stick to Boeing but Airbus is all alone. Airbus needs to do something
or can only bang their heads on the wall in despair...  banghead 


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