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Topic: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Paul
Posted 2005-05-13 12:30:05 and read 5833 times.

I am getting increasingly worried with all of the bad press that worms its way onto the forum. I am booked on a flight with United Airlines LHR- IAD-MIA return in C Class from July 8th- 26th. I have used my Aerpolan airmiles to buy the ticket so it is clearly not generating the airline any money. I am booked on a £2000 (non refundable, unless cancelled a month in advance) adventure holiday in Peru. If United Airlines decide to cease trading before my holiday what will the airline do to honor my ticket?

Will they put me on another Star Alliance carrier via a different route?
Will it be in Business Class?
Will they refund my airmiles if I dont fly?

I stand to lose a lot of money if the Airline that i love so much does go belly up?

If anyone can offer any idea of what normally happens in situations like these I will be most grateful!

Regards

Paul

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Jwenting
Posted 2005-05-13 12:39:18 and read 5817 times.

If UAL is incapable of flying you they'll also be incapable of paying someone else to fly you.
Your only resort then would be your travel insurance either paying for another ticket or refunding your trip.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-05-13 13:06:24 and read 5792 times.

When one airline goes out of business or two airlines combine then the other US airlines will be better off and the pressure would have lowered

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Galapagapop
Posted 2005-05-13 13:16:05 and read 5775 times.

Party at AA's house!

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Paul
Posted 2005-05-13 13:22:54 and read 5761 times.

Thanks for the info.... not. I dont need any lame ass replies stating the obvious. I need facts from previous experience, or people who know what they are talking about.

honestly Jwenting, thank you!

Paul

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Delta777jet
Posted 2005-05-13 13:35:46 and read 5723 times.

Hey Paul isnt Aeroplan the programme of Air Canada ? In case its another alliance partners programme you entitled for a refund, but if UA is going off market then their FF programme as well. May be STAR will do something for stranded PAX from another member I don t know ?!? May be the guys affected from Ansett Australia collaps could tell ?!?

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: 767-332ER
Posted 2005-05-13 13:39:11 and read 5719 times.

There shouldn't be a reason why you wouldn't be flown by another carrier whether in Star or just any other american carrier. When PANAM and Eastern went out, their passengers weren't left stranded with invalid tickets...they were accomodated by other carriers. Just check with where you purchased the tickets and if need be, check with BA or AA to see if they will honor your tickets...you know, doing a little homework in case the test was to come. Tell them how concerned you are about UAL's financial status and they should give you some light on this.
Regards my friend

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-13 13:43:50 and read 5707 times.

Despite the bad press, it is extremely unlikely that United would go out of business by July - if at all.

For all the huffing and puffing, it appeares that the unions are unlikely to strike. It is possible - unlikely but possible - that there may be some CHAOS action by the FA's, but I doubt it.

So far, there is only a small amount of "booking away" from United, some, but not to any great degree.

So - I think you can relax.

However, with that said, the bad news is not new. United has been in bk for over two years, the pension thing has been in the works for some time and it was fairly common knowledge that ti would come to a head about now.

So why did you book on United at all?

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Senorcarnival
Posted 2005-05-13 13:46:38 and read 5697 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
So why did you book on United at all?

Probably b/c he had miles to blow before they go tits up. Seeing I don't travel too often, I'm blowing my UA and DL miles this summer...

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-13 13:53:48 and read 5677 times.

Quoting Senorcarnival (Reply 8):
Seeing I don't travel too often, I'm blowing my UA and DL miles this summer...

As I say, I think it is highly unlikely they (United) will go t.u. The only thing that could force it now is the unions, and they have pretty much said a strike isn't on.

I would agree about DL though. They are so determined to avoid Chapter 11 that they may run out of cash and be forced to file Chapter 7.

If I were the DL CEO, I'd have been in Chapter 11 some months ago.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Bicoastal
Posted 2005-05-13 14:23:46 and read 5624 times.

Word from my sources at Dulles Customer Service and Ramp is that next Thursday, May 19, is the strike date at United.

My neighbor says that management brought in ice cream and cake to thank employees for United's great performance at Dulles. However the employees refused to accept it. Cake and ice cream don't make up for massive wage and benefit cuts.

[Edited 2005-05-13 14:34:17]

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-13 14:27:38 and read 5620 times.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 10):
Word from my sources at Dulles Customer Service and Ramp is that next Thursday, May 19, is the strike date at United.

Well, that would be interesting - it goes against all the stuff being leaked from the unions (and, I guess, from United) today. And thwe AFA has gone remarkably quiet.

My own feeling, as an old Lefty, is that a strike is anti-apathetic to most Americans, and that they will go a long way to avoid an actual strike.

But hey, I wouldn't cross the picket lines if they did.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-05-13 14:28:08]

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Paul
Posted 2005-05-13 16:37:18 and read 5515 times.

The reason I booked with United is becuase it is the most practical route to fly when leaving from LHR. If I was to fly with Air Canada then Executive First requires slightly more miles to purchase the ticket.

Due to the time of my connecting flight into Lima from Miami Lufthansa (747) was the only other option to take. IMHO UA's Business Class product is far superior to Lufthansa's old C Class!

If the unions do strike, will that be the end for United?

Paul

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: C133
Posted 2005-05-13 16:47:47 and read 5494 times.

It's all a great unknown. Who knows if UA could survive a strike? If you want to stop worrying about your travel plans, rebook elsewhere....

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-13 16:53:44 and read 5481 times.

Quoting Paul (Reply 12):
If the unions do strike, will that be the end for United?

If they strike? It would depend on when and for how long. It would also depend on other inponderables - to what extent are the banks and financiers prepared to give United leeway?

At the moment, the unions appear to be more mellow than they were, and at the moment, no date has been given to a strike, and, generally speaking, Americans don't like strikes.

So - without a crystal ball, that's the best I can do.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Arrow
Posted 2005-05-13 17:12:42 and read 5453 times.

I'm booked on a combination of AC/UAL to Maui in early June, and I too am concerned about what happens if this airline gets struck. I'm going to talk to AC today to see if they have any ideas. The flight to SFO is AC, so I'll get that far -- but who knows what happens after that. Coming back, I go through LAX, and then AC back to Vancouver.

AC has non-stops YVR-OGG, but when I booked there were no seats. I wonder if that becomes an option (like, re-mortgage the house and fly 1st class).

If those unions mess this up, I'll never book a flight on UA again. Of course, if the unions actually do strike, there won't be a UA to book on anyway, so I guess that's not much of a threat.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: AA B777-200
Posted 2005-05-13 18:27:59 and read 5362 times.

Ofcourse UAL will try to rebook you on a Star Alliance partner, but usually in cases like these, other airlines will also accept you, perhaps with a certain charge.

When Eastern went down, I remember AA accepting tons of their tickets.
Back in the 90s when NW's flight attendants were on strike, all KLM passengers were rebooked to the US on A N Y airline that had a seat for you.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: BAW716
Posted 2005-05-13 19:34:27 and read 5283 times.

You are holding an Aeroplan mileage ticket. If there is an irregular operation due to an partner carrier, you would be entited to the same FIM rights as any other revenue passenger. They will rebook you on any other Star Alliance carrier to get you to your destination. If you can't to your destination, then you can elect to get as close as you can and then get you back the same way.

The fact that you are holding an Aeroplan ticket is the key. If you were holding a Mileage Plus ticket, is en entirely different problem.

Good luck
baw716

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2005-05-13 19:52:26 and read 5246 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
Despite the bad press, it is extremely unlikely that United would go out of business by July - if at all.

Mariner,
As much as I agree with you, the bad press DOES hurt UA. That's why either Paul or Joe Schmucatelli are worried and are about to change (to another carrier)/cancel their ticket with UA. That HURTS UA business, sadly. The press has a major influence on the non informed general public. So... AA, DL, CO, NW will be getting more business from frightened UA former customers. - That's my view, though. I don't want to give up my hopes for seeing UA prevail this raging shitload of bad press by uninformed press, but as things go... UA will not be able to get through 2005. I hope I'm not right.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
If I were the DL CEO, I'd have been in Chapter 11 some months ago.

Grinstein has saved Western years before. His transformation plan has been paying off pretty good and it WOULD be better if the fuel costs were so damn high. He will file Chapter 11 if things don't shape up, he is a clever man and he will not force the company into Chapter 7. I'm all on board with Grinstein's transformation program as an MD-11 junkie and DL junkie I am, he's the right man to save the airline from YEARS of mis-management.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: FriendlySkies
Posted 2005-05-13 20:07:41 and read 5223 times.

Quoting AA B777-200 (Reply 16):
Ofcourse UAL will try to rebook you on a Star Alliance partner, but usually in cases like these, other airlines will also accept you, perhaps with a certain charge.

Even though it is about 97% likely that UA isn't going to die, if they do, they couldn't give a crap about any stranded pax. If they're out of business, what reason do they have to help you? None.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: WDBRR
Posted 2005-05-14 01:23:34 and read 5085 times.

Never say NEVER.....everyone thought that Eastern
and Pan Am would be around forever. At one time,
Pan Am sold tickets for future moon flights.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: AR385
Posted 2005-05-14 03:33:12 and read 5008 times.

As I have mentioned in another thread, this U.S. administration will not let UA go into liquidation. I do not want to get into philosophical discussions on populist government economics but I do think that is the case. So, PAUL, I would not worry if I were you.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: 1rocco
Posted 2005-05-14 03:38:00 and read 4991 times.

As far as the answer to your topic. It would be a blessing for the rest of the industry.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Uadc8contrail
Posted 2005-05-14 08:21:41 and read 4914 times.

1rocco,
you are a refreshing voice to that anti christ kahala777....

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-14 08:39:48 and read 4899 times.

MD11junkie:

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 18):
As much as I agree with you, the bad press DOES hurt UA

Oh, surely, but what I said was that "despite the bad press it is extremely unlikely that UA would go out of business by July..."

I still think that is true. I think that the bad press may be causing some passengers to "book away", but even so, I don't think United is going out of business.

My gray area is that the union contract negotiations are a total wild card to me. I cannot get a read on the present union attitude(s).

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 18):
Grinstein has saved Western years before. His transformation plan has been paying off pretty good and it WOULD be better if the fuel costs were so damn high.

I am sure Mr. Grinstein is a clever man, but I think he is playing a very high wire game.

The cash in hand keeps dwindling. United went into Chapter 11 with a couple of billion, and I think Delta is below that already?

And I don't see much evidence that the transformation plan is paying off, if only because they keep having to give more warnings.

I'm not entirely convinced that some of the old time airline management people have understood how great the change has been in the industry the past few years and I'm not sure that solutions that would have worked once apply anymore.

So - um - good luck.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: PlaneSmart
Posted 2005-05-14 08:40:14 and read 4899 times.

AR385

'....this U.S. administration will not let UA go into liquidation. I do not want to get into philosophical discussions on populist government economics but I do think that is the case.'

Well they better respond urgently to industry lobbying for protection from anti-trust and changes to foreign ownership laws, or you are going to be proven wrong.

The industry's fate is in the hands of the politicians, but it won't involve handouts.

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2005-05-14 09:26:08 and read 4870 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
The cash in hand keeps dwindling. United went into Chapter 11 with a couple of billion, and I think Delta is below that already?

Actual cash reserves (non-restricted) 1.1 billion dollars. DL is having a constant credit line with AmEx and General Electric (I can't remember if GE was the latter, I know AmEx was involved). I believe that's why the reserves are not dropping.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
I'm not entirely convinced that some of the old time airline management people have understood how great the change has been in the industry the past few years and I'm not sure that solutions that would have worked once apply anymore.

I don't consider Gerald Grinstein as the old time airline management at DL, since he's been in the position for only 18 months and the airlines having and suffering heavy changes. Opening routes, fares slashing, but still this is more of a long term/Cp. 11 backup plan. My point is that this will only show within the 2nd or 3rd Q of 2005.
As to the airlines in general... Management does not seem to realize that the only two changes that there have been are - consumer demands/options and the fuel prices. Other than that, security is not an issue anymore so, you can throw that card out and stop blaming terrorism for the airlines problem as a whole. That's why WN is getting strong, HP is getting into profitability again and B6 is somewhat there, getting the feeling of it. Legacies need to get a change in attitude NOW, before it's too late. (Eastern, PAN-AM)

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
So - um - good luck.

Thank you very much Big grin Appreciated, I don't want to see any of the legacies go under. Much less UA or DL.

Now, on another matter, Mariner, I've been lurking around these forums for almost a year now and decided to join last Wednesday. You've been in my RU list since then (i've followed your posts in that period of time). It's my pleasure to be able to discuss these and various other topics with you.
I hope I can get some facts right and learn from you and from the a.netters!

Cheers! - or.. hooroo!
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie

[Edited 2005-05-14 09:32:25]

[Edited 2005-05-14 09:33:44]

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-14 09:50:09 and read 4853 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 26):
hooroo!    

Hooroo? Gee, if you picked that up, you have been in the wilder shores of some of my posts.  Smile

Welcome to a.net.

As to Delta, the present cash level is $1.8 billion (unrestricted) and they expect that to drop "substantially". It is the loss that was your figure of $1.1 billion.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050512/delta.html?.v=6

The Amex money was not a huge amount, and by using it, they are borrowing against the future. There is also the matter of the accumulated debt and the cost of servicing it.

CEO Grinstein may not be old time airline management at Delta, but he is old time airline management.

And the problem here is a difficult bullet for the old time guys to bite - the matter of market share.

I believe that several of the legacy carriers have been led to their present circumstances because they can't rid themselves of the bogey of market share.

The new carriers are not nearly so concerned about it, they are more concerned with profit.

For example, everyone thinks that Delta (and Airtran) triumphed when JetBlue dared to invade ATL and got pushed out. It's a point of view, but Delta is the one trying to avoid Chapter 11 and JetBlue is flying high.

JetBlue simply decided the battle was not worth the cost. Few legacy carriers would have folded up their tents like that, they would see it as weakness.

There are exceptions, of course. United leaving MIA, AMR dropping some of its competing routes with JetBlue, and Delta (eventually) leaving DFW.

But pretty much, the legacies have been dragged kicking and screaming to those positions. Sadly, some of their subsequent actions suggest they have not learned the key lesson about market share - it does not trump profit.

So, I just don't know. I can only - again - wish you luck with Delta, and hope (if only for your sake) that I am wrong.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: What Happens If UA Go Out Of Business?
Username: SQ773
Posted 2005-05-14 12:18:48 and read 4629 times.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
As I have mentioned in another thread, this U.S. administration will not let UA go into liquidation.

Absolutely right. If the administration didn´t let US to go out of bizz, for sure they will protect UA somehow.
Nothing to worry about. By now .


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