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Topic: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AeroPiggot
Posted 2005-05-16 19:19:58 and read 11277 times.

Well, once again Airbus figures out how to sell a new model to the airlines. The article below mentioned that in return for the loan Us Airways and American West would be purchasing the A350. Airbus proves to be more innovative, and I bet Leahy as something to do with this. Boeing should offer this guy, the CEO job??? Big grin

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050515/us_airways_america_west.html?.v=4

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2005-05-16 19:32:43 and read 11226 times.

Airbus proves to be more innovative

You mean by BUYING orders from customers?  Wink

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2005-05-16 19:36:29 and read 11211 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 1):
You mean by BUYING orders from customers?

Well, according to lots of the armchair CEOs here, Airbus has been giving their planes away for years, so this is the next logical step!  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: DeltaWings
Posted 2005-05-16 19:47:56 and read 11148 times.

With what do they want to replace USs 762s with? Isnt the A358 to much of a plane for that? Im shure the 783/8 would have been better as a replacement.


~DeltaWings

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: PennPal
Posted 2005-05-16 20:21:39 and read 11048 times.

Didn't Airbus do something similar in the mid '70s with Eastern to introduce the A300 to the North American market?? Seems to me the airline was able to procure about 23 aircraft dirt cheap...

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AeroPiggot
Posted 2005-05-16 20:27:17 and read 11002 times.

Quote:
You mean by BUYING orders from customers?

My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AKelley728
Posted 2005-05-16 20:30:04 and read 10984 times.

Some more information in this earlier (now locked) thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2113602/

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: QQFLYER28
Posted 2005-05-16 20:31:47 and read 10964 times.

Maybe Boeing took a look at the opportunity and decided to pass. The merger of these two carries is a financial risk to all of the lenders involved.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2005-05-16 20:33:02 and read 10948 times.

Quoting PennPal (Reply 4):
Didn't Airbus do something similar in the mid '70s with Eastern to introduce the A300 to the North American market?? Seems to me the airline was able to procure about 23 aircraft dirt cheap...

That transaction was not really the same, back then Airbus was sitting with many manufactured A300s that had no customers (white-tails)......Airbus made a deal with Eastern that allowed Eastern to fly 4 A300s for one winter season (1978 I believe) on its route system for a nominal leasing price - Eastern could return the A300s with no penalities. In other words, EA could try out the A300 and see how it liked it. EA went on to place a big order for the A300 at very sharp terms - this was all before anyone took Airbus very seriously. Did EA really need another 250 pax jet at the time (remember, EA also had a big 1011 fleet)? Not really, but thats another story. This was a good move by Airbus and very different from what is going on now. Remember, Douglas did the same thing with TW and AA with the MD80; the MD80 got off to a slow start and McDD allowed both TW and AA to try the type - each got 15 aircraft on favorable lease terms which allowed the aircraft to be returned at any time. Each went on to become big MD80 customers and the program was jump-started.

In the current situation, Airbus seems to be offering bankrupcty exit financing to the merged HP/US (and now there is a rumor that UA also has a like offer) that is contingent up or linked to these airlines placing orders for the A350.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: FLAIRPORT
Posted 2005-05-16 20:44:24 and read 10865 times.

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 3):
With what do they want to replace USs 762s with? Isnt the A358 to much of a plane for that? Im shure the 783/8 would have been better as a replacement.


~DeltaWings

You'd be suprised, but slip a company 250 million Washingtons and they'll find a way to make it work!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
In the current situation, Airbus seems to be offering bankrupcty exit financing to the merged HP/US (and now there is a rumor that UA also has a like offer) that is contingent up or linked to these airlines placing orders for the A350.

I'l ltell you something, I had thought the industry was recovering. USAirways seemed better, and Untied seemed to be coming back. What happened in the past few months to screw these 2 companies. I hope this merger works out well as it will allow some legecies (Delta and AA namely, but also United) to recover and it will also help ease capacity. I also hope United recovers as well. Is there a way United could be involved in the merger at all?

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: BoeingFever777
Posted 2005-05-16 20:48:06 and read 10836 times.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 1):
You mean by BUYING orders from customers?

HAHA...they can't win an order so they will buy American carriers loan them Airbus money to buy Airbus a/c???

Guess they need some sorta deal to jump start there almost dead A350 drawings?

Quoting QQFLYER28 (Reply 7):
Maybe Boeing took a look at the opportunity and decided to pass. The merger of these two carries is a financial risk to all of the lenders involved.

Yeah that and Airbus loses on the deal the French gov. will most likely pick up the pieces and reimburse Airbus.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2005-05-16 21:01:40 and read 10759 times.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 5):
My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

Boeing is not in the business of airline ownership or operations. They sell or lease aircraft, they do not provide financing of airlines themselves.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
In the current situation, Airbus seems to be offering bankrupcty exit financing to the merged HP/US (and now there is a rumor that UA also has a like offer) that is contingent up or linked to these airlines placing orders for the A350.

Providing this type of financing is very risky with the domestic overcapacity issues facing US carriers like US/HP/UAL.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Danny
Posted 2005-05-16 21:14:26 and read 10713 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 11):
Boeing is not in the business of airline ownership or operations. They sell or lease aircraft, they do not provide financing of airlines themselves.

What happened with Hawaiian then?

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2005-05-16 21:40:17 and read 10635 times.

Boeing didn't provide capital to HA. Boeing has leased aircraft to HA. When HA went to Boeing asking to renegotiate their existing leases, Boeing wasn't interested. HA wasn't bluffing, and filed CH11. Apples and oranges.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Ouboy79
Posted 2005-05-16 21:53:00 and read 10574 times.

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 3):
With what do they want to replace USs 762s with? Isnt the A358 to much of a plane for that? Im shure the 783/8 would have been better as a replacement.

The 767-200s will be replaced by the A330-200s coming in a few years. The 350s will more than likely be expansion aircraft since they are still 5+ years away. A lot is going to change between now and then.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 5):
My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

I think you seem to forget the relationship between US Airways and Boeing. It all came down to Flight 427 going down in Pittsburgh. Boeing blamed the airline for the crash happen, (then) USAir answered with the immediate cancellation of 40 737 and 10 757 confirmed orders and announced the 400 aircraft deal with Airbus.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NASCARAirforce
Posted 2005-05-16 21:56:54 and read 10555 times.

Brilliant Airbus, pay airlines money to fly your planes.

Its great advertising strategy  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2005-05-16 22:02:52 and read 10528 times.

Quoting PennPal (Reply 4):

My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

Maybe Boeing simply does not think lending $250 million to the combined HP/US is a wise investment. Its a lot of money to invest into a newly formed airline - and remember, HP and US have 3 bankrupcty proceeding between them in recent years and many unresolved financial issues, not to mention the difficulties of merging the two carriers to overcome. The loan has a good amount of risk associated with it, maybe Airbus is willing to take the risk and Boeing is not.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-16 22:15:00 and read 10495 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
maybe Airbus is willing to take the risk and Boeing is not.

So - in review:

(i) Airbus, a non-American company, which is owed millions by US Airways - is doing something bad in trying to protect those millions.

(ii) GECAS, an American company, which is owed millions by US Airways - and is also trying to protect those millions - is not mentioned.

Yeh. I got the picture.

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: KL808
Posted 2005-05-16 22:16:34 and read 10490 times.

I would like to look at this as a win win situation for all parties involved.

US/HP will get extra needed funding, to keep them aloft. This intern will save thousands of jobs.

Airbus will definitely get an order. Who says it HAS to be the A350, I bet you there's a Claus in there that they could order any aircraft they want.

I dont see it useful for US/HP to have A350's at the moment, but who knows time will tell.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Danny
Posted 2005-05-16 22:31:18 and read 10428 times.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Boeing didn't provide capital to HA. Boeing has leased aircraft to HA. When HA went to Boeing asking to renegotiate their existing leases, Boeing wasn't interested. HA wasn't bluffing, and filed CH11. Apples and oranges.

Absolutely apples and apples. Boeing is an investor in HA period.

Airbus may do the same to:
1. Prevent a bunch of used Airbus aircraft hit the market if US sinks.
2. Secure a customer for the future.
3. Invest their profits and get a return on it.

It's a normal business. Remember when Boeing bought back Airbus aircraft to sell 777? Yeah apples and oranges  sarcastic .

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AeroPiggot
Posted 2005-05-16 22:42:16 and read 10373 times.

Quote:
from Dutchjet: Maybe Boeing simply does not think lending $250 million to the combined HP/US is a wise investment. Its a lot of money to invest into a newly formed airline - and remember, HP and US have 3 bankrupcty proceeding between them in recent years and many unresolved financial issues, not to mention the difficulties of merging the two carriers to overcome. The loan has a good amount of risk associated with it, maybe Airbus is willing to take the risk and Boeing is not.

Again $250 M might not be a bad investment, if the return could be Billions in airplane orders, and take away a very important Airbus operator in the US. At least that is my thinking process here. I am also aware of the spat between US Air (Stephen Wolf, he did the same thing while at UA with the A320 order) and Boeing, it seems like a good opportunity to repair that dispute also??

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: DL021
Posted 2005-05-16 22:52:59 and read 10326 times.

Wow.....talk about throwing good money after bad....


I wonder when the investors at Airbus will raise a flag on this idea...the airlines still have the same route structure, same union labor issues and more debt, even though they will be merged.

Who else doubts if they'll consider any orders from such an arrangement strong enough for the purposes of giving the ok for production?

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-05-16 22:55:49 and read 10308 times.

They won't have the same route structure, obviously, and they'll probably add significant connecting the dots sorts of things.

In terms of a domestic network, it'll be stronger than Continental's, for example.

N

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Ruscoe
Posted 2005-05-16 22:56:15 and read 10308 times.

I have two questions:

1. If Airbus have $250 million to give away why don't they put it into discounts at a more viable airline to win an order?

2. Is this really Airbus money, or is it Govt money? This would be a very smart way for Europe Inc to assist Airbus, without it being a subsidy!

Ruscoe

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Jmc1975
Posted 2005-05-16 23:05:43 and read 10268 times.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
Well, once again Airbus figures out how to sell a new model to the airlines. The article below mentioned that in return for the loan Us Airways and American West would be purchasing the A350.

It's America West! How do you get the heading correct but screw up the rest????

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-16 23:13:35 and read 10215 times.

Let's see..a $250mm loan (adding debt to the b/s)
buy 20 A350 (assuming $150mm per plane) $3bn that needs to financed (read: more debt)
No cash reserve to speak of
debt up the wazoo
high operating cost
Airbus desperate to sell a plane that isn't selling

equals

LOSE-LOSE

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-16 23:20:35 and read 10157 times.

NYC777:

Let's see: the deal only goes ahead if there is at least $500 million in new funding.

Of which the majority will come from PAR Capital. Some ($150 million) may come from ACE Holdings (Air Canada).

Some ($125 million) will come from Air Wisconsin. Some ($125 million) will come from Republic.

Some - an undisclosed amount - will come from GECAS, in the form of loans for new aircraft.

They scarcely need Airbus at that rate, who are only providing funding for some new aircraft.

So your point is - ?

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Ruscoe
Posted 2005-05-16 23:20:45 and read 10157 times.

NYC777,
You forgot to add that Airbus needs to spend 5 billion or so Euro to develop it also, and it does not appear to have wide customer appeal.

Ruscoe

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: SFORunner
Posted 2005-05-16 23:26:04 and read 10131 times.

EU governments will spend money to "subsidize" the development of the A350.

Airbus will spend money to "subsidize" US Airways and America West, United States companies.

WTO =  scratchchin 


Maybe if UA were in better shape, Airbus would have used them as the A350 launch customer as Airbus is a large UA creditor ....of course, they still could.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-16 23:29:57 and read 10109 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
NYC777:

Let's see: the deal only goes ahead if there is at least $500 million in new funding.

Of which the majority will come from PAR Capital. Some ($150 million) may come from ACE Holdings (Air Canada).

Some ($125 million) will come from Air Wisconsin. Some ($125 million) will come from Republic.

Some - an undisclosed amount - will come from GECAS, in the form of loans for new aircraft.

They scarcely need Airbus at that rate, who are only providing funding for some new aircraft.

So your point is - ?

mariner

You missed the point. I'm looking at it from the Airbus-HP/US point of view.

Airbus will commit to a plane that doesn't appear to have any customer appeal or raises the bar like the 787 does. They invest a whole boatload of European money in order fiannce a non-competitive product. In addition if US/HP does fail (three ch. 13 filing between the two airlines) Airbus (and other creditors will be holding a lot of airplanes which will drive down prices for existing Airbus models (as both HP and US have a majority of Airbus planes). LOSE

It saddles the new US/HP airline with a larger debt load via the financing of these newairplanes with out any thought to route structure or any other economic analysis. In other words Airbus' offer to HP/US is $250mm for an order of 20 A350 that you may or may not need. Take it or leave it. LOSE.

Therefore it is a LOSE-LOSE proposition.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Aloha717200
Posted 2005-05-16 23:31:00 and read 10098 times.

It seems to me that Airbus will do ANYTHING to sell their A350 now. These little "business deals" are making my blood boil. I just saw the UA thread about Airbus rumoured to be offering help to United for exit financing in return to an exclusivity contract.

I hope Boeing takes them to the WTO and nails their asses to the wall. This is bullshit!

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-16 23:32:49 and read 10087 times.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 30):
I hope Boeing takes them to the WTO and nails their asses to the wall. This is bullshit!

Absolutely but this is the only way that Airbus feels it could compete given all the recent big wins by Boeing.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-16 23:36:15 and read 10060 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 29):
In other words Airbus' offer to HP/US is $250mm for an order of 20 A350 that you may or may not need. Take it or leave it. LOSE.

Why do you ignore all the other investors, from PAR Capitial through Air Wisconsin, through Republic through Air Canada.

And GE.

You do not explain how it is only Airbus monmey (which isn't even money, but goods and service) which will saddle the new airline with debt.

Nor do you explain why America West shares went up 9% today on Wall Street.

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AJRfromSYR
Posted 2005-05-16 23:36:23 and read 10060 times.

How many firm orders does Airbus have right now for the A350?

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Glideslope
Posted 2005-05-16 23:37:55 and read 10054 times.

Holy COW!! I had no idea Airbus was in such dire straits. If I were an EU Taxpayer I would be appalled at this unimaginable waste of my hard earned money. To think the only way to sell the A350 is by these means? My, what has the company become?

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Aloha717200
Posted 2005-05-16 23:38:39 and read 10046 times.

Compete by cheating. Yeah, that's real ethical. "We'll give you 250 million if you order A350s, and then we'll tell the news media that our plane is clearly superior to Boeing's because we've 'won' your order. You scratch our back, we'll scratch yours"


I always favoured boeing but never had anything against Airbus. But I quickly am finding a reason to dislike them, and it's garbage like this. What'd be REAL priceless is if UA were to call airbus on this and actually address the media themselves about it, and then order a buttload of 787s.

Airbus can't sell their inferior plane so they're going to be sneaky about it. Airbus...here's an idea...a novel one at that. Build a better airplane.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AeroPiggot
Posted 2005-05-16 23:40:37 and read 10036 times.

Quote:
It's America West! How do you get the heading correct but screw up the rest????

OK "Jmc1975" I stand corrected.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-16 23:43:23 and read 10018 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 32):
You do not explain how it is only Airbus monmey (which isn't even money, but goods and service) which will saddle the new airline with debt.

They're making HP/US commit to buying 20 A#%0. Do the yhave the cash NO! How do they get the money to buy these planes...issue debt or get bank financing....this adds to the debt load of the company.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 32):
Why do you ignore all the other investors, from PAR Capitial through Air Wisconsin, through Republic through Air Canada.

And GE.

It's irrelevant to my discussion. I'm looking at it from the Airbus-HP/US POV as I had already stated.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 32):
Nor do you explain why America West shares went up 9% today on Wall Street.

Only because they have a greater access to market where they are, at best, marginal players. That market beingthe US East coast where US is stronger.

The same thing with the proposed US/UA deal. US was strong in the East Coast while UA had strong market presence in the midwest and west.

HP will benefit from the synergy by merging with US not because they'll be getting the A350. For god sake they're largest aircraft is the 757.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-16 23:46:11 and read 10003 times.

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 33):
How many firm orders does Airbus have right now for the A350?

0

Only a MoU from Air Europa for 10.

They haven't even decided to go with development.

[Edited 2005-05-16 23:50:28]

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AJRfromSYR
Posted 2005-05-16 23:47:19 and read 9996 times.

What's so unethical about this?

I imagine Airbus knows the A350 won't stack up to the 787, so they are doing what they can to sell it. Giving 250mil to a company who promises to buy 2bil worth of aircraft down the road doesn't sound like a bad business idea for Airbus.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Aloha717200
Posted 2005-05-16 23:49:22 and read 9974 times.

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 39):
I imagine Airbus knows the A350 won't stack up to the 787

That's what makes it unethical. They are bribing airlines to buy an inferior product.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-16 23:51:53 and read 9959 times.

Though it would be a win for Boeing. It commits Airbus to producing an inferior product which won't sell in too many numbers vis a vis the 787. However the Europeans will most certainly bail out Airbus in the event of any large losses.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-16 23:53:02 and read 9953 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 37):
HP will benefit from the synergy by merging with US not because they'll be getting the A350. For god sake they're largest aircraft is the 757.

Now I am completely confused. Until this morning, Wall Street was extremely against the merger. HP shares have been taking a major hit since it first leaked.

Today, since the financing story came out, the shares went up 9%.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 37):
They're making HP/US commit to buying 20 A#%0. Do the yhave the cash NO! How do they get the money to buy these planes...issue debt or get bank financing....this adds to the debt load of the company.

I am delighted that you can seperate one group of debt from another. On a balance sheet, all debt is the same. Debt.

Nor is this kind of deal new for America West and Airbus. They have done it before.

I would also point out that GECAS - a subsidiary of the US company GE - will actually be financing the aircraft. $250 million would pay for - what - one plane?

And since GECAS is the prime mover in the merger - and have clearly invited Airbus along - are they "forcing" anything on anyone?

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AJRfromSYR
Posted 2005-05-16 23:54:33 and read 9946 times.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 40):
That's what makes it unethical. They are bribing airlines to buy an inferior product.

If the product is inferior the price will be adjusted id assume. You don't pay Ruth Chris prices for a Big Mac.

EDIT: Hence the $250mil "discount"

[Edited 2005-05-16 23:58:13]

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-17 00:02:42 and read 9915 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 42):
I am delighted that you can seperate one group of debt from another. On a balance sheet, all debt is the same. Debt.

Ok I don't no what you're smoking but let me know who your dealer is. I never seperated any debt load from another. All I said is that to purchase these planes it will add to the debt load. That and the $250mm from Airbus is not simply money that they're giving US/HP but A LOAN!! MEANING IT HAS TO BE REPAIDED!!!!!

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 43):
If the product is inferior the price will be adjusted id assume. You don't pay Ruth Chris prices for a Big Mac.

List price for a 787 is about $120mm whereas the list price for a A350 is around $150mm. Even with discounts I doubt that the A350 will be able to compete effectively with the 787 on price. So far that has been bourne out with with over 250 orders for the 787 and only 10 for the A350.

[Edited 2005-05-17 00:03:33]

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 00:06:27 and read 9895 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 44):
That and the $250mm from Airbus is not simply money that they're giving US/HP but A LOAN!! MEANING IT HAS TO BE REPAIDED!!!!!

Yes, like all the other loans - which will have to be repaid.

Nor is the Airbus loan actual money, but goods and services which can be worked off, not paid off.

So why is Airbus the only villain here?

Oh, no, wait, silly question. I already know the answer.

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-17 00:09:40 and read 9879 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 45):
Yes, like all the other loans - which will have to be repaid.

Then you agreed that this deal will add significantly to HP/US already heavy debt load mainly because they will have to purchase $3bn worth of planes.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 45):
So why is Airbus the only villain here?

I never said that they're a villian that this a very bad deal for them and also raises a lot of issues like: Can an airplane manufacturer essentiall own part of an airline? Sounds anti-competitive to me.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-17 00:12:00 and read 9869 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 45):
Nor is the Airbus loan actual money, but goods and services which can be worked off, not paid off.

Worked off? How? They're not going to work off anything if they're saddled with more debt, a route structure that is unfavorable to them because of LCC competition, no international service to speak off (which is where the real money is), continued high labor costs, continued high fuel costs.

[Edited 2005-05-17 00:15:33]

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 00:15:08 and read 9847 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 46):
Then you agreed that this deal will add significantly to HP/US already heavy debt load mainly because they will have to purchase $3bn worth of planes.

No. Given the numbers we are talking about, $250 million is but a splash in the pond and can be worked off, not paid off.

The only you should be worried about is GECAS, if they fund 20 x A350's.

I mean, HP/US could always go Chapter 11 again, leaving GECAS on the hook - to Airbus - for 20 x A350's.

So if this deal is such a bad one, you might want to think twice about buying shares in GE.

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Avek00
Posted 2005-05-17 00:16:59 and read 9836 times.

The investment proposal is actually a very SMART move from Airbus - both HP and US are at risk of liquidation within the next twelve months, and the dumping of close to 200 low-cycle A320-family aircraft on the market would absolutely kill any new orders till the end of the decade. The A350 move is low-risk - if the airline isn't around, the manufacturer will likely find someone to take them (warts and all), even if on sweetheart terms.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: DL021
Posted 2005-05-17 00:22:06 and read 9807 times.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 30):
I just saw the UA thread about Airbus rumoured to be offering help to United for exit financing in return to an exclusivity contract.

I thought that the exclusive contracts were deemed illegal several years ago and the airlines who had them with Boeing had to tear them up. Any news on that front?

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-17 00:23:02 and read 9800 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
No. Given the numbers we are talking about, $250 million is but a splash in the pond and can be worked off, not paid off.

I don't think you are reading any of my posts correctly.  banghead 

HP/US will be saddled with $3bn of debt when they finance the purchase of the A350. GECAS will provide the financing but HP/US has to pay them back. GECAS is not purchasing the airplanes, HP/US will be andGECAS will be providing the money to HP/US to buy the airplanes.  sigh 

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2005-05-17 00:23:42 and read 9795 times.

Deleted, because frankly I'm getting lost on whom is financing what for whom  Smile. Right now I'm at Col Mustard financing a Revolver in the Study.

-Dave

[Edited 2005-05-17 00:28:05]

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-17 00:26:15 and read 9782 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 48):
I mean, HP/US could always go Chapter 11 again, leaving GECAS on the hook - to Airbus - for 20 x A350's.

If HP/US goes ch. 11 (assuming they emerge) then another trip there would kill the airline. There is no way that they would survive and then all the creditors (including Airbus) would be left holding route rights, and over 400 airplanes.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 00:29:00 and read 9769 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 51):
GECAS is not purchasing the airplanes, HP/US will be andGECAS will be providing the money to HP/US to buy the airplanes.

If they are leased, then GECAS is buying them and leasing them on to HP/US.

Since the details of the deal have not been disclosed, neither you nor I are in a position to judge that.

Since the deal has not been confirmed, neither you nor I are in a position to judge.

However, there are historical parallels for the deal, between America West and Airbus.

Still, you are prepared to imply that CEO Parker, of HP, does not know what he is doing, so I can't argue with that.

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-17 00:29:05 and read 9769 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 52):
In other words, HP/US will not be financing the aircraft, GECAS will. Is HP/US making a commitment to lease them in exchange for the financing? Yes. But they would likely have had to lease some big planes anyways, so if Boeing wasn't willing to play, I guess this is the deal that get's done.

No where in the news reports is it said that GECAS is purchasing the aircraft but HP/US will. Even if GECAS leased the aircraft to HP/US the lease rates wold be enourmous. It still is a negative from a cashflow point of view. You still have to pay for the use of the airplane...regardless if you are leasing it or financing it. That's cashflow negative.

[Edited 2005-05-17 00:31:06]

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Slider
Posted 2005-05-17 00:30:39 and read 9763 times.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 49):
The A350 move is low-risk - if the airline isn't around, the manufacturer will likely find someone to take them (warts and all), even if on sweetheart terms.

Especially since it won't be built by then... ;-(

It's low-risk for Airbus, but it still isn't the right thing to do, IMO. It's tantamount to reinserting the feeding tube. Again. And again. And again.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mham001
Posted 2005-05-17 00:34:59 and read 9751 times.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 44):
List price for a 787 is about $120mm whereas the list price for a A350 is around $150mm.

All the info I've seen say the A350 lists about $187mm(at this time).

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 00:35:07 and read 9759 times.

Quoting Slider (Reply 56):
It's tantamount to reinserting the feeding tube. Again. And again. And again.

And what Air Wisconsin is doing isn't? And what Republic is doing isn't?

And what Air Cananda/ACE Holdings is doing isn't? And what PAR Capital is doing isn't?

Abd what GECAS - the prime mover - is doing isn't?

Once again - why is Airbus the only villain here?

(It's all right, it's a rhetorical question).

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2005-05-17 00:39:30 and read 9729 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 58):
Once again - why is Airbus the only villain here?

Despite the obvious reasons, I think it is because it's the supplier controlling the customer to some degree. Whether or not that is legal or illegal, I think people see it as fixing the deck. It just rubs you the wrong way - at least, that's what I think people might be responding to.

-Dave

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 00:44:14 and read 9706 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 59):
I think it is because it's the supplier controlling the customer to some degree.

You mean, as in Boeing and Airtran?

http://www.prnewswire.com/airtran/20010416b.shtml

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Daedaeg
Posted 2005-05-17 00:44:23 and read 9703 times.

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 49):
The investment proposal is actually a very SMART move from Airbus - both HP and US are at risk of liquidation within the next twelve months, and the dumping of close to 200 low-cycle A320-family aircraft on the market would absolutely kill any new orders till the end of the decade.

I absolutely agree. It is in Airbus' best interest that these two carriers survive. If they don't, not only will they have a slow selling A350, but a slow selling A320 as well. This would be devasting losing your bread winner (A320) to liquidated carriers. The last thing Airbus needs is to have almost it's entire product line decimated due in part to carriers gone bust. Currently the A380, A330, A350, and A340 series are either slowly selling or not selling much at all. If you were to add the A320 due to UA, US, and HP folding, this would be terrible for Airbus. I don't think they had much choice in the matter. Definitely a smart move for Airbus to intercede in the US/HP and UA debacle.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Stirling
Posted 2005-05-17 01:35:39 and read 9482 times.

And Airbus is the "Bad-Guy" here because.......?

Protecting the A320 line is in the best interests of Airbus.

As far as I can tell, Airbus does not have a gun to the head of HP/US.

For Airbus, doing this, is better than doing nothing.

Why isn't Boeing involved? Well I for one see construction delays on the horizon.
Orders are great, but they still need to be built, by a company that has been no where near it's manufacturing capacity these last few years.

Boeing has enough things to worry about right now...think about it.

This isn't the end of the world. If anything, be upset at the heads of HP/US, they are ones that are assuming this debt, voluntary I might add.
And like Airbus, they gotta do something, time is running out.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: LMP737
Posted 2005-05-17 01:37:29 and read 9464 times.

As someone who went through the AA-TWA "merger" I hope that America West reconsiders.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-05-17 01:39:57 and read 9436 times.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 40):
That's what makes it unethical. They are bribing airlines to buy an inferior product.

The airline knows what its getting into. If it doesn't like the terms, it doesn't have to take the money.

Its not cheating, its not unethical, its not underhanded. Its very forthright. Everyone knows what they're doing.

N

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus L
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2005-05-17 02:23:25 and read 9207 times.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 62):
As far as I can tell, Airbus does not have a gun to the head of HP/US.

Actually it does. It is one of the largest creditors for both.

me, I don't have a problem with it. But everyone who invests in Airbus needs to realize that they just made a huge investment in two rather shakey American Airlines.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Flybyguy
Posted 2005-05-17 03:04:43 and read 8985 times.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 5):
My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

I would have to agree. Boeing has always been a rich airline company that was too short-sighted to see potential in anything, but legacy airlines... <> jetBlue <>.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 15):
Brilliant Airbus, pay airlines money to fly your planes.

Its great advertising strategy

It's a great business strategy... when the airline industry starts kicking again then Airbus will be in the middle of the action along with Boeing.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 23):
If Airbus have $250 million to give away why don't they put it into discounts at a more viable airline to win an order?

They are not GIVING the money away... it is a LOAN... L-O-A-N. That's when they expect to be paid back in the future. I think it's great that they are doing something to help the American economy and keep thousands at work.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 30):
I hope Boeing takes them to the WTO and nails their asses to the wall.



Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 30):
It seems to me that Airbus will do ANYTHING to sell their A350 now. These little "business deals" are making my blood boil. I just saw the UA thread about Airbus rumoured to be offering help to United for exit financing in return to an exclusivity contract.

I hope Boeing takes them to the WTO and nails their asses to the wall. This is bullshit!

Again there is nothing wrong with Airbus' deal with US Airways and America West. It's just smart business. Ensure struggling airlines a free pass through hard times and when times are good, everyone benefits.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 35):
Compete by cheating. Yeah, that's real ethical

What's so unethical about the deal... just that Boeing didn't do it first? There is nothing underhanded about it... it is perfectly legitimate... Boeing wishes it had the spare change to throw around like Airbus. I myself wish the Bush Administration would do something to help Boeing out instead of spending $82 Billion on countries that would betray us in a heartbeat.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 40):
That's what makes it unethical. They are bribing airlines to buy an inferior product.

Since when has Airbus peddled inferior products? When the Chinese start designing and building commercial aircraft under their standards, then we'll talk. The A350 is marvelous, as is the 787. Just because the A350 isn't totally new doesn't mean it's inferior. Certainly proven designs have the bugs ironed out, novel designs don't.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Chgoflyer
Posted 2005-05-17 03:34:55 and read 8830 times.

Quoting PennPal (Reply 4):



Quoting PennPal (Reply 4):
Didn't Airbus do something similar in the mid '70s with Eastern to introduce the A300 to the North American market?? Seems to me the airline was able to procure about 23 aircraft dirt cheap...

yeah and they went broke just like US is going too.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2005-05-17 04:44:35 and read 8538 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):
You mean, as in Boeing and Airtran?

http://www.prnewswire.com/airtran/20010416b.shtml

mariner

I have no argument there. I don't think it's a secret that that took place. Whether anyone here has a problem with that or not, you'd have to ask them. Personally, as an enthusiast, I don't care for it either way. Were I an investor in any of these companies, I might.

-Dave

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: PlaneSmart
Posted 2005-05-17 04:46:27 and read 8523 times.

Will it be OK for GECAS and B to provide loans?

Just hold your horses, and see who else is providing funding as part of the industry-wide re-structure.

All major financiers & manufacturers will be providing credit lines, or guaranteeing lines, to multiple airlines.

It has nothing to do with sales in the short-term.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-05-17 05:10:33 and read 8433 times.

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 66):
They are not GIVING the money away... it is a LOAN... L-O-A-N. That's when they expect to be paid back in the future. I think it's great that they are doing something to help the American economy and keep thousands at work.

Um, let's not pretend that their goal is to help the American economy or keeping thousands at work.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 05:17:24 and read 8403 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 70):
Um, let's not pretend that their goal is to help the American economy or keeping thousands at work.

If that is what it achieves, what is your problem with it?

Or would you rather those workers be out of a job, on the streets?

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Thrust
Posted 2005-05-17 05:24:00 and read 8378 times.

I really respect Airbus for what they are doing.....let us hope they do the same for UA....for once I do not care whether this will hurt Boeing or not, the survival of airlines are more important than which planemaker is prevalent in the market....I wonder if this could mean a possible A380 order from UA in the future if Airbus follows through...UA is after all one of the largest 747 operators in the world right now....they have around 40 serving the globe....competition is really getting interesting now....it will be interesting to see Boeing's reaction to this.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-05-17 05:37:56 and read 8327 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 71):
If that is what it achieves, what is your problem with it?

Because, I'm skeptical that it will. What is being done to improve profitability?


Quote:
Or would you rather those workers be out of a job, on the streets?

If it improves the overall health of the airline industry, yes.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2005-05-17 05:38:53 and read 8323 times.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 5):
My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

Maybe Boeing has enough confidence in their product that they don't have to give money to a carrier, so a carrier can then "buy" their product? Sounds like Airbus is downright desperate to get the A350 going, and the only way it can is to "sell" it to a near-broke airline.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 22):
In terms of a domestic network, it'll be stronger than Continental's, for example.

I'd argue on that one. I think EWR/IAH as primary hubs is superior to PHX/PHL as primary hubs.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Flyboyaz
Posted 2005-05-17 05:46:53 and read 8297 times.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
I'd argue on that one. I think EWR/IAH as primary hubs is superior to PHX/PHL as primary hubs.

I think he meant in terms of coverage of the U.S. CO strength is limited to the eastern seaboard, gulf area, texas and to a certain extent, the midwest. The new airline would have obvious strengths in the northeast (PHL, LGA, DCA), southeast and gulf (CLT), great lakes area (PIT) and most of the west coast with PHX and LAS...not to mention HP has a good amount of flights to Colorado, AZ cities, ABQ and Texas.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 05:47:42 and read 8278 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 73):
Because, I'm skeptical that it will. What is being done to improve profitability?

Puttting a man who knows something about running airlines as CEO will be a start.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 73):
If it improves the overall health of the airline industry, yes.

Then why are you not as cross with Air Wisconsin or Republic, or the PAR Investment Group, or ACE Holdings/Air Canada, all of whom put their hands up long before Airbus?

Why are you not as cross with GECAS - an American company - who are the prime movers in the potential merger?

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Carpethead
Posted 2005-05-17 05:52:00 and read 8243 times.

US/HP could order a ton of A319/320 to replace 733/734 in their fleet. Any long-haul aircraft order would be small compared to this order. This way Boeing would be shut out of the large aircraft market as the 73G could be running for this order when the financial balance sheet improves on this merger.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: LAS757300
Posted 2005-05-17 05:53:21 and read 8229 times.

I've only read half of the posts on this thread. Reading the rest of them would be pointless as the whole thread seems to repeat this same b.s. line about Airbus' "desperation." In the real world, airlines with serious cash problems get money all kinds of money from various aviation companies. Allow me to quote from February 2nd's Business Week (sorry no link):

General Electric Co.'s aircraft engines may power the country's major airlines, but it's GE's money that is keeping many of them aloft. Since September 11, 2001, GE Commercial Finance and its aircraft leasing arm, GE Commercial Aviation Services, have sunk more than $8 billion into global airlines, with a big chunk of that going to money-losers such as Delta Air Lines Inc. and United Airlines Inc.

Huh, a very sucessful company provides billions of dollars in financing to the consumers of its product.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-05-17 05:54:49 and read 8223 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 76):
Then why are you not as cross with Air Wisconsin or Republic, or the PAR Investment Group, or ACE Holdings/Air Canada, all of whom put their hands up long before Airbus?

Why are you not as cross with GECAS - an American company - who are the prime movers in the potential merger?

I've said it before, that these companies are protecting their own interests. I don't think they are helping the airline industry. I think GECAS could do more to help the airline industry by taking back some of the planes and placing them overseas, reducing capacity domestically.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 06:24:29 and read 8120 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 79):
I've said it before, that these companies are protecting their own interests.

Yes, that is what companies do. That is what Boeing did when they invested in Airtran.

Airtran, of course, bought too many 737's and is now talking abotu sub-leasing some of them.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 79):
I think GECAS could do more to help the airline industry by taking back some of the planes and placing them overseas,

Yes, that is what GECAS is attempting to do with this deal - taking back 60 aircraft and placing them elsewhere - probably overseaxs.

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-05-17 06:40:34 and read 8057 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 80):
Yes, that is what companies do. That is what Boeing did when they invested in Airtran.

I'm not saying that comapnies shouldn't. But it should be pointed out that Boeing invested in Airtran well before 9/11 and before it became obvious that there was way too much capacity in the US market. Also AirTran didn't seem like as much of a basket case as US Airway does.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 80):
Yes, that is what GECAS is attempting to do with this deal - taking back 60 aircraft and placing them elsewhere - probably overseas.

That's probably where Airbus's and GECAS's interests diverge, depending on what GECAS tries to place overseas.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Mariner
Posted 2005-05-17 06:57:09 and read 8003 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 81):
That's probably where Airbus's and GECAS's interests diverge,

In order for this deal even to have a hope of happening, GECAS has to make it as sweet as possible - to HP.

So I would suggest - only suggest - that Airbus probably came on board at the invitation of GECAS.

HP has done this sort of deal with Airbus before, and would feel secure.

But - I am not sure what you would have any of these companies do. You have some brilliant airline minds involved in this deal - the people at GECAS (and, dare I say it, Airbus), and the people who "saved" Air Canada.

Wexford Capital are involved (through Republic), and they have "saved" several airlines.

Mr. Bronner doesn't know jack sh*t about running airlines, but he has admitted it and is probably bringing a bunch of RSA money with him. Wether the folk in Alabama should be cheering this is another matter.

To counterbalance that, you have Mr. Bonderman at TPG.

This deal will not happen unless Mr. Bonderman gives it his blessing, and, given his track record, if he does give it his blessing it would seem to have a fairly good chance of success.

Now, I am sympathetic to the idea that US Airways should lay down and die for the good of the industry, but it was always unrealistic to assume that is what they would willingly do.

mariner

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: AirNZ
Posted 2005-05-17 07:45:30 and read 7885 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 81):
I'm not saying that comapnies shouldn't. But it should be pointed out that Boeing invested in Airtran well before 9/11 and before it became obvious that there was way too much capacity in the US market. Also AirTran didn't seem like as much of a basket case as US Airway does.

What has 9/11 got to do with it??

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-05-17 07:57:41 and read 7838 times.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 83):
What has 9/11 got to do with it??

The current difficulties in the US aviation market are partly the result of lingering effects of 9/11. While traffic levels are up, they aren't high enough and security restrictions are enough of a hassle and time factor to make people look at other ways of getting to where they want to go. Also depressed revenues resulting from the post 9/11 traffic slowdown do end up being reflected in an airlines' balance sheet. The simple fact of the matter is that the assumptions that airlines made in the dot-com era and the pre 9/11 era no longer hold, and yet the airlines made decisions and purchases and signed contracts back then that are costing them money today.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: DOC
Posted 2005-05-17 13:14:10 and read 7278 times.

I beleive this is a very good idea from Airbus

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: YULMRS
Posted 2005-05-17 13:34:16 and read 7205 times.

So, lets think of an airbus reader reading this post ... "These Americans don't want our money, so don't loan it ... "

Just a question for some people here ... Has Airbus ever done a good thing for you ? Isn't trying to help a company improve it's finance in order to sell aircrafts later a good thing ?

If a customer is dead, that's a lost for both A and B, the idea is great, so why not ...

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: DOC
Posted 2005-05-17 13:44:41 and read 7160 times.

In the french newspaper of to-day, Air Canada would help Us Airways.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus L
Username: Revelation
Posted 2005-05-17 13:45:58 and read 7155 times.

It's as if you were in personal bankruptcy, and GM offers to loan you $5k towards getting out of bankruptcy if you agree to buy a $40k car five years from now. It's certainly a generous offer, and one wonders if GM would stay in business if they offered that kind of deal to all their customers. On the other hand, I do not see anything illegal or immoral going on. If GM wants to do business with high risk customers, and uses creative financing to do so, it's up to them. Ford can choose to match the offer, or not.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-05-17 14:18:45 and read 7016 times.

Quoting YULMRS (Reply 86):
So, lets think of an airbus reader reading this post ... "These Americans don't want our money, so don't loan it ... "

Just a question for some people here ... Has Airbus ever done a good thing for you ? Isn't trying to help a company improve it's finance in order to sell aircrafts later a good thing ?

If a customer is dead, that's a lost for both A and B, the idea is great, so why no

In the eyes of some people here Airbus can do nothing but wrong.
Even if it is very a generous offer to help some of their "own" companies survive people have to find nothing but negativity in it......but if Boeing would have done the same the cheering about such genoristity would be huge !!!!

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Solnabo
Posted 2005-05-17 14:29:46 and read 6995 times.

My hat off for Airbus doing this, and talking about UA n Airbus:

I strongly doubt ANY US carrier get the 388! Hell, US dont even got the B 773/ER, only European/ Middle East / Asian carriers got them.

My  twocents 

Micke//SE Big grin

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: SNATH
Posted 2005-05-17 14:35:25 and read 6965 times.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 90):
US dont even got the B 773/ER, only European/ Middle East / Asian carriers got them.

...and AC. Or was AC's recent Boeing order so traumatic that you're still in denial?  Wink

Tony

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Solnabo
Posted 2005-05-17 15:20:36 and read 6794 times.

Tony, since when did Canada become USA? Duuh.....

Micke/SE  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: SNATH
Posted 2005-05-17 15:23:42 and read 6773 times.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 92):
Tony, since when did Canada become USA? Duuh.....

I never claimed that. But, according to your previous post, Canada was either in Europe, Middle East, or Asia!  Wink

Tony

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Solnabo
Posted 2005-05-17 15:32:32 and read 6731 times.

IIRC nor South America got them, but I promise to keep my trap shut when AC starts to fly the contraption!

Happy with that?

Micke//SE Big grin

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: NYC777
Posted 2005-05-17 15:42:03 and read 6686 times.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 94):
IIRC nor South America got them, but I promise to keep my trap shut when AC starts to fly the contraption!

Happy with that?

Boy you are envious of all the wins Boeing has scored, aren't you?

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: SNATH
Posted 2005-05-17 15:45:58 and read 6661 times.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 94):
but I promise to keep my trap shut when AC starts to fly the contraption!

Oh, please don't! We love your comments! They are always very amusing!

Tony

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: YULQC
Posted 2005-05-17 16:07:28 and read 6576 times.

And it seems that AC is interested too. They may offer 150$ millions CAD in exchange for maintenance contracts.

Sorry in French only, tried to find an English link but could not find one... Wall Street Journal is cited.

http://www.radio-canada.ca/nouvelles/Economie

[Edited 2005-05-17 16:20:02]

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: F4N
Posted 2005-05-17 16:27:09 and read 6477 times.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
Well, once again Airbus figures out how to sell a new model to the airlines. The article below mentioned that in return for the loan Us Airways and American West would be purchasing the A350. Airbus proves to be more innovative, and I bet Leahy as something to do with this. Boeing should offer this guy, the CEO job???

To all:

The above is probably one of the most moronic things I've ever read in my 50+ years. Offering cash to floundering carriers that have been in, are still
in or have returned to bankruptcy again in return for securing frame orders is not exactly what I'd call innovative. I've noticed that we've had a few of the "Airbus is desperate" threads making the rounds since the recent spate of 787 orders and I have to admit I didn't give much credibility to them. After all, Airbus is making planes, has a big backlog and is generating profits. But the notion of providing exit financing to US or UA and helping the US/HP merger is risky bordering on desperation if you ask me.

I understand the "why"; Airbus will lose big if these carriers liquidate. But given that US/UA have not been able to re-invent themselves to the point they can survive, have exhausted all of the "normal" sources of funds that a firm looking to emerge from bankruptcy would often utilize, have screwed the daylights out of their employees and still can't generate positive cash flow seems to point out the fact that they are running out of viable options.
You don't see GECAS stepping up to do more, do you? I think Airbus is the last shot US/UA have, but the folks at Airbus can't like this. While some of the pro-Airbus twerps on a.net take their hats off to Airbus for this, while apparantly not understanding it in the least blockhead , management at Airbus is taking a huge gamble in capitalizing failing firms. The payoff could be there for them, but the odds aren't very good.

My guess is that there will be a lot of  pray ing if this goes through.

regards,

F4N

I'd hate to be the folks at Airbus whose jobs may be riding on this succeeding.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Justapassenger
Posted 2005-05-17 16:53:44 and read 6377 times.

YULQC (reply 97):

Yesterday Bloomberg TV also mentioned that AC was part of the deal in exchange for performing maintenance. Bloomberg did not mention any other details.

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: UAMAYBACH1239
Posted 2005-05-17 19:24:00 and read 5696 times.

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 5):
My only question is, why Boeing didn't see this opportunity. With these carriers right in their "backyard"???

I'm pretty sure Boeing did see this happening, and made a very wise choice not to get involved. To make a deal with these airlines , expecting their first delivery of the A350 by 2010, is beyond optimistic. I think the odds might outlast the carriers and lean more towards chap. 7
 Cool

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: A999
Posted 2005-05-17 21:31:28 and read 5585 times.

Solnabo
A little off topic, but....
Since when did you jump the border????

Topic: RE: US Airways, America West To Get $250M Airbus Loan
Username: Solnabo
Posted 2005-05-17 22:13:25 and read 5529 times.

Quoting A999 (Reply 101):

Just for today, to salute Norway┬┤s Nationaldag.

Micke//SE  bigthumbsup 


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