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Topic: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: CX747
Posted 2000-05-02 15:16:46 and read 1401 times.

WASHINGTON (AFX) - Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky said the U.S. may launch proceedings against certain EU trade practices, notably subsidies to Airbus Industrie for its A3XX super jumbo project.

In documents filed with the Congress, she termed the subsidies as "alarming practices", adding that the government may launch proceedings soon.

She said that actual public funding and promised subsidies to different industries, and notably Airbus, "raise serious concern" regarding the respect by European governments' multi- and bi-lateral
obligations.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Sndp
Posted 2000-05-02 15:34:21 and read 1276 times.

Although I do not want to start a EU-US or Boeing-Airbus war, God prevent us from that and give us a serious discussion, I would like to comment on this message. As we all know, Airbus will indeed receive money from EU-governements but this money will be returned once the first aircraft is produced and delivered. Countries like England have gained already a lot of money, for every 1$ they have put in the A320 program they now have received already 3. So, Airbus will give this money back.
Boeing is also sponsored although here it goes via the military aircraft production. Boeing uses a lot of studies for military aircraft or space projects financed by the governement to produce its civil aircraft. Why is America not fair on this subject. Should we all be treated in the same way? They fear the A3XX and they never thought this project would come of the ground. Now that Emirates has committed itself to buy some A3XX's and others will do this soon, this seems to be the only thing the Americans want to and can do to protect their own market. I hope it won't work! And if it happens the EU certainly must go through with the ban on hushkitted B737's, 707 and 727.
sndp

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-05-02 16:05:43 and read 1268 times.

This is good news. Whether trade restrictions are placed or not, it will force Airbus to be open with all of its funding and pricing.

Two comments:

Only the British part of Airbus has returned its "loans" and Boeing receives no "subsidy" for military projects; only fee for service, just like the Airbus members.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: A student
Posted 2000-05-02 16:08:27 and read 1269 times.

Excuse me, but what do hushkitted aircraft have to do with unfair subsidies to the A3XX????

Basically, this would mean a trade war like the Bananacrisis. (US put taxes on European luxury products). If the EU should react in any way at all, it would be to protest against the Americans spending money on scientific research that benefits Boeing.

But on the other hand, scientific progress is needed. The A3XX does not bring any significant progress, and it is built purely for economic reasons, i.e. to make money with it. If it is a project that is good investment, Airbus could try financing it with loans from banks. It is not. So it needs government money. This could turn out to be a moneyeater like the Eurofighter, the Transrapid, the Eurotunnel or other such prestige projects that are built purely for prestige reasons. Airbus, the entire company, is basically one big such prestige project, and by sheer luck, it seems, it turned out to be successful. (Hmmm, if you want to make millions, start byt putting billions into Airbus, wait for ten years, and maybe you'll get millions, huh?)

What's the bottom line? It is okay for the US to protest. Can they stop it? No. Are they doing anything at all at the moment? From this post it looks like one representative complained. That's all. No need to panic and start trade wars. So why worry? Life is not fair. Boeing and Airbus both complain, pointing fingers at each other, but they will manage. I'm on the Boeing side, myself. Sndp is on the Airbus side. Who cares?

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: 777x
Posted 2000-05-02 16:19:04 and read 1256 times.

I don't have a problem in principle with Airbus receiving subsidies, after all, it was created by the goverments of the EU with some political reasons backing it's creation. At the end of the day it's a EU project and therefor they can do what they like (This doesn't mean that others won't complain about it)

However, I don't buy the argument that Boeing also receives subsidies from it's military projects. That's complete BS because the consortium members of Airbus receive the same sort of deals (which I don't think amounts to subsidies in either case). Of course defense research benifits commercial products, that happens across many fields, but perhaps it is most obvious in aerospace. But again, while Boeing has learned from it's defense contracts, so have the Airbus consortium members (where do you think they developed the skills to build the first Airbus & Concorde?)

my 2c

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: LBSteve
Posted 2000-05-02 16:23:46 and read 1256 times.

Subsidies are a tricky issue. We in the US really can’t say too much given our own record of subsidizing industry. Type in ‘Corporate Welfare’ in any search engine and you’ll see what I mean. Right or wrong, I just don’t see how we in the US can complain?

Topic: What Will The US Do?
Username: Udo
Posted 2000-05-02 16:53:32 and read 1249 times.

Oh, after Emirates has launched the A3XX the US evaluate to act against Airbus...what will they do?

1. Ground all US-registered Airbusses?
2. Stop importing any Airbusses?
3. Declare a new trade war?
4. Close all embassies in Europe?
5. Send the USS Enterprise into the Channel, or into the North Sea, to show up?

I can't wait for any actions...
And I can't wait see the first A3XX in proud Emirates colors taking off!

Oh, by the way, thanks for all bloody posts, I will enjoy reading them!

Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: LBSteve
Posted 2000-05-02 16:57:14 and read 1246 times.

Hello Udo, please remember that not everyone in the US is out to get Europe. Fact many of us are rather disappointed with the childish behavior of our own government.

Topic: Childish Behaviour
Username: Udo
Posted 2000-05-02 17:00:29 and read 1248 times.

I know that our government behaves childish, I haven't voted for Schröder...

Oh, by the way, if I start noting down how often the US government has behaved childish so far, I won't have finished before tomorrow...

Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Childish Behaviour
Username: Sndp
Posted 2000-05-02 18:05:28 and read 1224 times.

Please do not say Boeing does not receive money from the governement for some prjects because that is not true and we all know that. I'm very sorry.
sndp

Topic: Sndp
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-05-02 18:32:48 and read 1223 times.

Name a project.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 19:06:53 and read 1212 times.

DLX, who buys all these latest F-something fighters while there is no real demand for..... the US-taxpayer. Who gets the money ? Boeing and other companies.

Topic: Ab.400
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-05-02 19:11:05 and read 1211 times.

So, when you go to McDonald's and buy a cheeseburger, are you subsidizing McDonald's? Of course not. It's a fee for service.

The government says "We want 100 F-3000 jets for [whatever reason]." Boeing says, "We can do that. We'll charge $X per plane," and the government says "OK." How is that subsidy? It too is a fee for a product.

I guess the US taxpayer is also subsidizing McDonalds when a gov't employer on TDY uses his per diem to buy lunch, huh?

Topic: RE: Ab.400
Username: Avion
Posted 2000-05-02 19:16:28 and read 1206 times.

I dont mind how they fund the aircraft. I only hope it will get off the ground some day.

Avion

BTW: CX747, are you so angry that airbus builds the new queen of the skies? As an aviation enthusiast you should be looking forward to see it flying.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: WorldTraveller
Posted 2000-05-02 19:16:43 and read 1205 times.

I can't understand your behaviour.

The US government and the EU agreed in '92 that the kind of loans Airbus will get to develop the A3XX is legal and O.K. !!!

So what are you screaming about?

Please stick to your agreements...

But I know the real reason why you call the loans unfair:

The A3XX will break Boeings (or America's) monopoly in the 400+ seat market.
And it was exactly this market which gave Boeing the big $$$'s so that there was no need to make profit with the other models (especially the 737), since the narrowbodies had to compete with the highly succesful A320 family (and don't you remember that Boeing said there was no market and no need for these a/c, too??).

Boeing tries to bring the A3XX project down ( that's ok from their point of view), and that's why they don't want the loans for Airbus.


Regards,
the WorldTraveller

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 19:24:03 and read 1204 times.

DLX, if you look closer on Avions post you will find that he stated the fact that Boeing RECEIVES money from the gov. There was no word about subsidy. You asked for a project and I named one.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 19:26:35 and read 1196 times.

Pardon, the post was from Sndp...

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Sndp
Posted 2000-05-02 19:30:14 and read 1194 times.

Boeing does not only receive money from the governement for the service they give but also to develop new systems and so on. These experiments and projects are also used for civil aircraft. And the 747 was for example initially a project to build a large aircraft for military use. What they learned from this development was used to make the 747 civil aircraft.
sndp

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: AerLingus A330
Posted 2000-05-02 19:32:58 and read 1196 times.

Why do I feel that this forum is starting to turn into the United States vs. the rest of the world?  

Please leave your politics out of the forum will you?

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: CX747
Posted 2000-05-02 19:36:12 and read 1187 times.

I had concerns about posting this information. Suprise, suprise it has begun to deteriorate already. When Boeing builds JSF or parts for the F-22 it is not the same as Airbus and the A3XX. The U.S. military sees the need and demand for a new fighter and ask several companies to build prototypes and designs. Finally it comes down to the best design and the company is paid by the U.S. Government for each aircraft it produces. When the French or other nations subsidize they do NOT receive a good in return. The French taxpayer does not have a new F-22 to protect its skies. All they have done is made it possible for Cathay Pacific to afford an A3XX. That is why France's taxes are so high. The citizens of that country pay for Airbus aircraft. They do not receive anything in return. Well they may receive employement but they are paying for their own employement because their own taxes pay for Airbus aicraft. So, it is kinda like a dog chasing its tail.

Ab. 400- As for the F-22 it is indeed off the ground and performing as advertised. The JSF is to fly later this year also. And don't say there isn't a need for these aircraft because in 5-10 years these planes will be the ones fighting for freedom for YOU AND ME.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Sndp
Posted 2000-05-02 19:37:52 and read 1184 times.

All right, maybe I'm doing what I hoped not to happen, adding myself some message in the EU-US war. What we have got here are some people fond of the A3XX, hoping to see the aircraft fly and some Boeing fans. And we are all using (correct?) arguments but we put them in another perspective just to convince the others. It is maybe wrong that Airbus receives money but let us be honest, Boeing also receives this. And the EU was allowed by the US to give money, as the US could do so as well.
What I do not understand, and I hope to get an answer on this question, is why some people here, aviation enthousiast, are against this new great aircraft, the A3XX. Wouldn't it be nice for them too to see this great bird fly?
sndp

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-05-02 19:43:34 and read 1182 times.

Why is it that to be an "aviation enthusiast" you have to like every new design that comes off the drawing board?

I am an aviation enthusiast. And while I feel that it may be neat to see the 3XX fly, I would prefer that it not come at the expense of people's livelihoods.

We can argue all day about what is fair, and neither side will listen to the other, I'm sure. (Even though I'm right.  ) But, I will not be a cheerleader when it hurts my countrymen, my friends, my family, etc.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: LBSteve
Posted 2000-05-02 19:48:40 and read 1181 times.

I think Boeings CEO’s have done more to hurt the American worker than Airbus ever has. They layoff the most experienced for low skill labor just to save a few $$$ while simultaneously lining their own billfold, now that’s something to be mad about.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Avion
Posted 2000-05-02 20:13:00 and read 1170 times.

Its way off topic but the taxes in france are not low but they're not high(About the same level as in the US). And are people living with less living standard in the US? No. Everyone gets free healthcare (high class healthcare) and education.

The EU can do with their money what they want. They can throw it out of the window or just keep it on a bank account. But why would they want to throw money out of the window. Just like in the US there is no spare money to throw out of the window!
But bear in mind every euro airbus gets must be paid back! Is not a subsidy, its a loan.

Avion

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: 777x
Posted 2000-05-02 20:18:51 and read 1166 times.

receiving money from goverment != subsidy

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 20:22:48 and read 1167 times.

receiving money from the gov. = subsidy. Well that affects Boeing as well.....  

Topic: Ab.400
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-05-02 20:26:38 and read 1164 times.

Then, you ARE saying that a government worker on temporary duty who buys lunch using his per diem is subsidizing that restaurant?

Oh boy.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 20:29:31 and read 1161 times.

DLX, your fantasy is raising a little high.

Topic: RE: Ab.400
Username: 777x
Posted 2000-05-02 21:55:55 and read 1134 times.

No, recieving money from goverment DOES NOT equal subsidy.

If the goverment buys pencils from you at market rate is it subsidy? No, of course not!

If the goverment gives you that money w/o expecting anything in return, that is subsidy (also if they buy above market rates, giving you more money than the item is worth)

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 22:03:45 and read 1131 times.

777x, how comes you changed your mind so quick ? Look at your earlier post.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: FBWless
Posted 2000-05-02 22:25:08 and read 1125 times.

Boeing and other fighter jet builders don't just pay for prototypes out of their own pockets. They are awarded contracts for studies which MAY end up in a prototype, which in turn MAY end up in a production fighter jet. But these studies, paid for by the US Govmt, MAY just as well end up as part of a civil jetliner project.

I really don't see what is so wrong with EU Govnmt loans, which will be paid back, for a project which happens to be civilian instead of military. The world needs more friendly skies ...

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Raddog2
Posted 2000-05-02 22:36:28 and read 1120 times.

To say that purchase of military aircraft from Boeing is equivalent to dumping money into Airbus for nothing is fatuous, to say the least. First of all, you all act like Airbus doesn't benefit from military contracts from European governments. Let's get our facts straight here...is British Aerospace a member of Airbus? Yes. Do they make weapons? Yes. Read the following from their website:

BAE SYSTEMS has a world-class prime contracting capability, combining key in-depth skills in naval platforms, military aircraft, electronics and other technologies. This enables us to offer outstanding complementary capability to customers across the main defence sectors, as well as in the civil aircraft market. We are also working towards a major boost in operating performance through the synergies and opportunities available to the new group, not least through the cross-transfer of best practice across all our operations.

The key word is CROSS-TRANFER! Airbus complaining that Boeing cross-transfer is unfair business practice is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. And BAe isn't the only one doing it. And in addition to their own military contracts, Airbus gets billions and billions in essentially interest free loans that never have to be repaid. The United States doesn't do this, putting Boeing at a competitive disadvantage. You don't think Boeing would be making a 787 if they got 15 billion dollars in free money from the government?

Topic: RE: Avion
Username: 777x
Posted 2000-05-02 22:45:31 and read 1116 times.

Avion,
I haven't changed my mind, I'm not against Airbus having subsidies, but I am due argue with people who say boeing receives subsidies due to it's miliary operations.

Lots of people on this forum seem to take the stance that it's OK for airbus to receive subsidy because boeing has also - this is what I argue against, not the fact that Airbus recieves subsidy.

Regards
Nikolai

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 22:52:54 and read 1113 times.

I guess you mean mee, Ab.400.

Topic: RE: 777x
Username: Avion
Posted 2000-05-02 22:55:54 and read 1110 times.

I dont know if Boeing receives susidies. I dont care anyway because they make nice aircraft (777). All what i want to say is that Airbus has to pay back all loans. So it's no subsidy. The loans for the A300 and A320 are already paid back.

Avion

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 22:57:56 and read 1112 times.

Just to make the story short, we Europeans vote our gouvernment and they decide where the money goes. If they support Airbus, fine. I vote them again....

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-05-02 23:43:00 and read 1101 times.

And, just to make the story short, Europe is not an island. What you do over there sometimes affect others. If you do something that causes harm to someone outside your jurisdiction, purposeful or not, expect retribution.

Do NOT expect the US to stand by while decisions in Brussels harm our citizens.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-02 23:54:59 and read 1097 times.

US can not do much more than asking Boeing to come up with an equal competitor to A3XX.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: D L X
Posted 2000-05-03 00:01:39 and read 1087 times.

The US could do a lot more than ask Boeing to make a 3XX competitor. (As much as that is being a lemming...)

The US could ban it here, it could slap crazy tarriffs on all Airbus products (like the EU threatened Boeing it would do if it didn't change the exclusive supplier contracts), it could not allow any EU based carrier to land anywhere within our borders, it could not allow any EU based carrier to fly over our territory... The possibilities of what the US could do are quite impressive, and I'm sure that some of the possibilities are even some that I would have thought unimaginable.

I'm not saying that the US would do this, but to think that there's nothing they CAN do is very myopic.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-03 00:05:25 and read 1084 times.

Whoow... sounds like they have their own little world to live in.....

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Raddog2
Posted 2000-05-03 00:10:09 and read 1078 times.

Well, let's see what the WTO says about it after Barshefsky launches proceedings. I doubt the "Boeing gets 'subsidies' too" line is going to fly with them. But it's not like the EU is particularly good about abiding by WTO judgments. Bananas come to mind as a particularly egregious flaunting of multilateral agreements and the WTO. All I can say is that if the WTO judgment comes down against Airbus and the EU ignores it again, the sanctions are going to be in the billions of dollars. The banana issue alone is going to cost the EU nearly $500 million in sanctions. If European taxpayers are willing to eat the sanctions, more power to them.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Hamlet69
Posted 2000-05-03 00:13:46 and read 1076 times.

I live in the U.S. I believe that the EU can do with its money what it wants. Give subsidies, build a bridge, burn it, I don't care. But for those that say Airbus is receiving loans and not subsidies, or subsidies that will/are being paid back, I have one request:
Please provide more detailed information (sources, please) on how much and how quickly this money has been paid back.
I'm aware that BAE Systems has been making payments to the British gov't for years, and I congratulate them. However, I've heard differing numbers on what they have paid (from 1 = .50 all the way to 1 = 3). So again, a request: Provide info on what Airbus's partners are paying their respective governments.

Thank You

Hamlet69

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-03 00:14:36 and read 1075 times.

Nice comparison... Boeings and Bananas......  

Topic: RE: Ab.400
Username: Chieftain
Posted 2000-05-03 00:16:49 and read 1074 times.

Nicht haben Sie nichts besser als zu tun erstellen Mühe und
erhalten in Kämpfe?

Warum hassen Sie Boeing und Amerika?

Entspannen Sie sich..., warum nicht wir alle zivilisierte Tat können?

Denken Sie wirklich Airbus- oder Boeingobacht an irgendwelche von uns?

Ab.400, denke ich, daß Sie Ausgabe zu viel Zeit mit dem
Computer gewesen sind. Es gibt andere Sachen im Leben außer Flugzeugen.
------------

6 orders will not launch the 3XX anyway gents.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Chieftain
Posted 2000-05-03 00:20:31 and read 1073 times.

Isn't the value of the Central American bananas greater than that of aircraft sold on the European continent?

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-03 00:21:13 and read 1071 times.

Chief/Barnaby. Think I that German yours not so good is.

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Wingman
Posted 2000-05-03 00:25:37 and read 1070 times.

When the US EU agreement on gov't subsidies for commercial airliners was signed in the early 90s, the circumstances b/t Airbus and Boeing were much different. Let's take a look at the advantages used by Airbus to establish itself as the leading seller of aircraft in 1999:

1. No corporate income taxes (50%+ rate in France)
2. No financial disclosure
3. No shareholders/no dividends
4. No repayment of subsidies for 330/340 program with the exception of BAe.
5. No export taxes for sales outside of Europe
6. Subsidies for both military and civilian programs

So, let's forget about the EU and the US and subsidies in general. Let's instead take a look at just these two companies. One was once the undisputed world leader. The other a gov't funded upstart created to establish an industry and become an equal to the other. That has now happened. Airbus clearly used every available competitive advantage to achieve its oft stated goal of market parity. Now that the goal has been achieved, the US must act in its own best interests to level the playing field. It seems like a very fair point. Why do Europeans agree with subsidies to Airbus when no other industrial sector receives the same generous treatment? Airbus will not be truly competitive until it can design, build and sell airplanes all by itself. Does VW need help to compete against Ford?

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Prebennorholm
Posted 2000-05-03 00:26:38 and read 1072 times.

A lot of crab on this tread. The fact is that while the US needs the Airbus Consortium badly, then Europe needs Boeing just as much.
Just try to think the unthinkable, that Boeing (or Airbus) was in the same situation as Microsoft - no real copetitor to push developments and productivity. And a sales department with no other task than defining what price the market can pay without stalling.
The result would be - like Microsoft - poor quality products delivered with a profit rate which created a money tank the size of a 747 fuel tank.
That principle has been tested, that's how airliners were produced in the former Soviet Union. If you rush you may still have a ride on such a product.
On the other hand, imagine how much better this world would have been if we had supported IBM (OS/2), Netscape and Microsoft equally. Microsoft delivered us the smartest "beta-versions", and then we were told that the next diskette would contain the final fix which ended all our troubles. And we soon carried around a hundred and fifty diskettes with fixes and service packs. The only difference today is that we download the fixes from the net. Larger computers with equally complex non-Microsoft software - including Airbus and Boeing flight control computers - run for years without even being shut down.
Boeing initially got a kick start in the jet airliner business by delivering 2500 B-47, B-52 and KC-135 bombers and tankers. Nothing wrong with that, in fact it may very well have been the beginning of the end of the cold war. The B707-100 was little more than a KC-135 with windows. Even the B747 was sort of spin off from the USAF competition for a large transport, which in the end was won by Lockheed with the C-5A Galaxy. Boeing had a design contract with the USAF for their proposal for the large transport competition.
In Europe it's almost the same situation today, just the other way around. The Airbus M400 proposal (former named FLA or Future Large Aircraft) will compete against the Boeing C-17 when European air forces will need transport replacements. The M400 will of course carry a lot of spin off from existing civil Airbus types.
Airbus was started differently.
But wasn't it Airbus who killed Boeing's old competitor MDD? No way. Douglas and later MDD was never a serious competitor, it was never more than a minor player in the market. Reason: Bad leadership. MDD did not make any developments during their last 30 years. They only changed a little on their existing products when they were forced to do so, new engines and new instruments in the front office and such. They were never allowed to create a complete product line. When there was a profit, then the shareholders milked it dry. And when there was no profit, then they cried "stock market crash" instead of helping to fill the gaps. MDD were never allowed to maintain their position in the market. Bad leadership. Douglas/MDD was deemed 30 years ago when then ended real, new developments with the DC-10. It's a miracle that it took that long, but finally the decrease in military contracts tipped the scale. Nothing special, hundreds of large and equally successful US companies in all businesses have failed for the same reason. European companies too.
No company in the world can finance development of a hightech main product from own pocket money when the product life is in the 40 years range and development cost must be salvaged over a considerable part of that time. How the money is found, if its an ordinary loan in a bank or something else, is not interesting. The main thing is that it pays back to the money lenders. Otherwise it's a failure. But all banks experience such failures every year. The game is to minimise the risk for failures.
Let's just all be happy that we have both Boeing and Airbus. If one of them should fail, then we have a Microsoft situation. We cannot allow airliners of "Microsoft quality" because nobody can lift a failed airliner from the ocean floor by pressing the Ctrl-Alt-Delete keys.

PS: I once saw a picture of Bill Gates' personal aircraft. It carried a dialogue box telling "This aircraft has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down - OK".

Topic: RE: Ab.400
Username: Chieftain
Posted 2000-05-03 00:26:39 and read 1069 times.

No kidding! I was just screwin' with ya!

Topic: RE: Possible A3XX EU Funding Block
Username: Ab.400
Posted 2000-05-03 00:38:12 and read 1064 times.

Our kids will be happy not beeing packed into cramped 747´s.


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