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Topic: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2005-06-16 01:57:23 and read 7929 times.

According to TTGItalia (search - Alitalia (in Italian Only))

Alitalia has expressed interest in the 787 to the head of Boeing Italy. They have previously indicated the desire to be a launch customer, however have been unable to do so because of financial difficulties.

I wonder if the recent 'wiping' away of the debt sheet will enable them to place their long-rumoured order.

We all know AZ has an affinity to Boeing wide-bodies.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: IADguy73
Posted 2005-06-16 03:09:39 and read 7800 times.

On what route(s) would AZ use such a big plane with a profit? I just don't see it...btw AZ 623 was cancelled today to IAD.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-06-16 03:15:56 and read 7782 times.

Quoting IADguy73 (Reply 1):
On what route(s) would AZ use such a big plane with a profit? I just don't see it...btw AZ 623 was cancelled today to IAD.

787's are relatively small planes as far as widebodies go.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2005-06-16 03:22:31 and read 7769 times.

There are many routes within the system that could use the payload of the 788 combined with the capacity of the 763. These aircraft (788) would allow AZ to reopen many markets once left including LAX (starting next year with 777s), SFO, HKG, etc.

The capacities are similar (to a 763).

In the meantime, AZ's 763's are being scheduled for new interiors. They're going to be reconfigured with 170 degree lie-flat (downward angled) seats in Magnifica (similar to the United First seats on the PS configured 757s). Not sure about whether PTVs will be installed or not yet...

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2005-06-16 03:24:24 and read 7754 times.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 3):
The capacities are similar (to a 763).

closer to 764, actually, with 777ER range. Not a bad combo for an intermediate international carrier like AZ.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: IADguy73
Posted 2005-06-16 03:56:46 and read 7666 times.

Sorry, brainfart..i was thinking A380  white 

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: EZEIZA
Posted 2005-06-16 05:34:43 and read 7530 times.

Quoting IADguy73 (Reply 5):
Sorry, brainfart..i was thinking A380

First time I think about it, but a 380 in AZ livery? I'd love to see that!

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2005-06-16 06:19:27 and read 7437 times.

I would rather see AZ out of its financial issues they have, rather than adding more and more planes to their fleet.

The 763s are in good shape, still... aren't they? Plus... isn't it too early to talk flying the 787 when we don't know if AZ will make it to 2010 with its current situation?

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Danny
Posted 2005-06-16 06:55:03 and read 7378 times.

Do they have any finances for that? I thought they were one of the worst performing airlines in the world. Probably they just hope for more taxpayers money to be pumped in as it was happening over many years.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2005-06-16 06:58:22 and read 7368 times.

I think SFO would definitely be in the works....I've read a few postings here about the difficulties AZ was having here @ SFO with the 763's, with the added cargo, I think the 787 would do them well here....

Would be nice to see AZ here in The Bay area!!  yes 

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-06-16 07:08:21 and read 7341 times.

Would be nice to see AZ being added to the long customer list of the B787. Any Italian with an idea on when an order could be announced?

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-16 07:17:55 and read 7304 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
The 763s are in good shape, still... aren't they? Plus... isn't it too early to talk flying the 787 when we don't know if AZ will make it to 2010 with its current situation?

Alitalia is state owned and WILL make it to 2010, believe me. The planes will be bought by Alitalia, then sold to a dubious company and leased back like the did in the past. Seem these lease companies exist only for Alitalia.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Jr
Posted 2005-06-16 07:37:17 and read 7273 times.

Alitalia should be first interested in getting their act together before getting interested in another aircraft.

From 742's, to MD11s, to parking the MD11s, to 777s, to bringing the MD11s back... to 787's? Are any of the MD11s still in service as of right now?

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-16 10:16:54 and read 7155 times.

Quoting Jr (Reply 12):
From 742's, to MD11s, to parking the MD11s, to 777s, to bringing the MD11s back... to 787's? Are any of the MD11s still in service as of right now?

Alitalia has one of the youngest fleets in Europe.

777..........New
767..........New
320..........New
319..........New
E170........New
ERJ..........New
321...........from the mid to late '90
MD11........from the early '90
md80........30 from late '80 to early '90
md80........the rest from the early to mid '80

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: MD11junkie
Posted 2005-06-16 10:25:45 and read 7121 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 11):
Alitalia is state owned and WILL make it to 2010, believe me. The planes will be bought by Alitalia, then sold to a dubious company and leased back like the did in the past. Seem these lease companies exist only for Alitalia.

I've never stated that AZ was not state owned. Now, BA has already tried to lobby the EU NOT to grant a rescue plan or whatever is called there for AZ - do you think they'll make it with one of the main airlines in Europe opposing their recovery?

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD-11 Junkie

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-16 12:16:09 and read 6999 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 14):
I've never stated that AZ was not state owned. Now, BA has already tried to lobby the EU NOT to grant a rescue plan or whatever is called there for AZ - do you think they'll make it with one of the main airlines in Europe opposing their recovery?

Of course, it's Italian. The Euro is trashing the Italian economy. Now the UK is trashing the Italian airline. Go figure. Italy threatens to step out of the EU and BA shuts up. Besides BA is run by an Australian (outsider).

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-06-16 12:23:30 and read 6975 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 14):
Now, BA has already tried to lobby the EU NOT to grant a rescue plan or whatever is called there for AZ - do you think they'll make it with one of the main airlines in Europe opposing their recovery?

I doubt that we will ever see a "recovery". Alitalia without permanent trouble would be like a.net without rumors.  Wink
BA has a good point - certain European airlines have never received a single cent of tax money while others were kept alive by their governments.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 15):
The Euro is trashing the Italian economy. Now the UK is trashing the Italian airline.

Was that intended as a joke?  Confused

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 15):
Italy threatens to step out of the EU and BA shuts up.

I don't think so.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 15):
Besides BA is run by an Australian (outsider).

Which doesn't mean he has no clue about European politics.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-16 12:30:31 and read 6954 times.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see something on the lines of Swissair / Swiss creative accounting.

Quoting Udo (Reply 16):
I don't think so.

Well they've mentioned it in the past. The current Prime Minister isn't too pleased and suggested just that when he entered office. Italy can't control it's valuta with the Euro being controlled centrally in Europe. It's trashing italian economy. In the past they simply devaluated the Lira. Now they can't do that.

Quoting Udo (Reply 16):
Which doesn't mean he has no clue about European politics.

He may have a clue about European politics but not Italian politics.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-06-16 12:33:55 and read 6929 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 17):
It's trashing italian economy. In the past they simply devaluated the Lira. Now they can't do that.

Then they should try to get some advice in other EU countries where the Euro doesn't trash anything.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-16 12:36:17 and read 6920 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 18):
Then they should try to get some advice in other EU countries where the Euro doesn't trash anything.

Like what?

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-06-16 12:54:18 and read 6874 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 19):
Like what?

Austria, Finland, Ireland, Luxembourg.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Trident2e
Posted 2005-06-16 14:33:30 and read 6739 times.

You don't seriously think that the EU will approve Alitalia's restructuring (or bail-out) and then allow it to order aircraft from Boeing. Politics will go to work here and if AZ orders any aircraft you can bet your bottom dollar they will have to make it Airbus.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Bassie2010
Posted 2005-06-16 15:40:08 and read 6314 times.

Quoting Jr (Reply 12):
Alitalia is state owned and WILL make it to 2010, believe me. The planes will be bought by Alitalia, then sold to a dubious company and leased back like the did in the past. Seem these lease companies exist only for Alitalia.

State ownership (or being backed up by a government) is no guarantee (think Sabena, Swissair). Even if the current proposed rescue plan is approved by the EU commission, it is still doubtful if Alitalia will survive. The split up of there operations in two seperate companies might help, but I personally don't think they will survive. They have taken a huge blow with Ryanair entering the Italian domestic market and they are still not producing black figures. I give it two more years before they go bankrupt. May be Olympic will beat them to it  Smile

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 17):
Italy can't control it's valuta with the Euro being controlled centrally in Europe. It's trashing italian economy. In the past they simply devaluated the Lira. Now they can't do that.

The Italian company is not being trashed by the Euro, Italy just has a trashy economy at the moment which they could normally 'quick fix' by devaluating their even trashier valuta. The Italian economy needs some serious restructering (as do a number of European economies) and the governments need to get their accounts in order.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: RayChuang
Posted 2005-06-16 15:48:38 and read 6223 times.

If AZ orders the 787-8, I think once they get the 788 I can see the airline reviving MXP-SFO. With the far longer range of the 788 AZ can fly the plane on a full pax/cargo load on this route year-round.  Smile

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Glareskin
Posted 2005-06-16 16:10:37 and read 6059 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 13):
Alitalia has one of the youngest fleets in Europe.

So how come I always see only overaged flying cigars (MD 80) from AZ?

Do you have numbers for the different types of aircraft?

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-06-16 16:55:09 and read 5789 times.

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 21):
You don't seriously think that the EU will approve Alitalia's restructuring (or bail-out) and then allow it to order aircraft from Boeing. Politics will go to work here and if AZ orders any aircraft you can bet your bottom dollar they will have to make it Airbus.

Well, then you would probably be wrong. Do you think Italian politics would allow th EU to force Alitalia to order only Airbus when Alenia has been a major beneficiary of Boeing outsourcing on the 767 & 777 and is a risk sharing partner on the 787?

Besides if EU politics forces AZ to order Airbus exclusively, you can be sure that the US will retaliate and prevent access to the US airplane market. Those USAir orders would be dead for sure.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Irishpower
Posted 2005-06-16 17:09:46 and read 5700 times.

SFO will absolutely be back. AZ still has their landing rights there but haven't used them since 9/01.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2005-06-16 17:11:05 and read 5688 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 25):
Well, then you would probably be wrong. Do you think Italian politics would allow th EU to force Alitalia to order only Airbus when Alenia has been a major beneficiary of Boeing outsourcing on the 767 & 777 and is a risk sharing partner on the 787?

i can guarantee if AZ orders any wide-body aircraft it will be the 788 or more 772ER's.

 Smile

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Trident2e
Posted 2005-06-16 21:52:37 and read 4593 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 25):
Do you think Italian politics would allow th EU to force Alitalia to order only Airbus when Alenia has been a major beneficiary of Boeing outsourcing on the 767 & 777 and is a risk sharing partner on the 787?

Yes.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 25):
Besides if EU politics forces AZ to order Airbus exclusively, you can be sure that the US will retaliate and prevent access to the US airplane market. Those USAir orders would be dead for sure.

You obviously don't live in the real world.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: KLM685
Posted 2005-06-17 03:30:18 and read 3942 times.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
I would rather see AZ out of its financial issues they have, rather than adding more and more planes to their fleet.

It's becoming more and more common to buy planes even if you're not in a great situation. I personally think that AZ will look great in the 787, but as you said, they need to solve their financial situation fast. Otherwise we will just see more and more problems related with the italians.

All this is called the "Wannabe Emirates" sindrome. They feel like buying planes if they want  Wink

Alonso

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Baw716
Posted 2005-06-17 05:02:42 and read 3896 times.

The 787 would do what the 767 can't: Carry passengers AND cargo over long distances on thin routes at a cost far less than it does today. This has been the problem with the 767 all along. The reason they have the 767 is that it is a very passenger pleasing aircraft. Passengers love it. They put extra pitch in the aircraft with a slim line seat and it makes 32 inches of pitch feel like 33. Magnifica Class on that aircraft is cozy, but plenty roomy and the seats are actually more comfortable than on the new 777. Not as hard and are more ergonomically correct for sleep. I just loved flying that airplane to/from San Francisco from Milan (all 12 hours of it). It was a joy, both in Economy, but especially in Magnifica, because with only 30 pax and 4 cabin crew, you could get to know the crew and they you and if you really were nice and they were as well, you could really have a very nice trip. I got to know several pursers who taught me the ropes, so whenever I got one who was not the best, I learned how to work them to give me top notch service....it was fab.

In any case, the 787 would certainly give AZ a much fresher product, something the employees would want to work, so that would have a positive impact on service. Add to that the fact that it would probably make marginal routes like SFO-MXP profitable, then you have a real winner.

I'm all for it. Bring on the red white and green, the most recognizable livery in aviation. It will make the 787 stand out in a crowd, as the 777 does now in the proud colors of Italy's Alitalia.

baw716
fmr Area Manager SFOUV
Northern California
Alitalia (1998-2002)

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-06-17 05:21:23 and read 3864 times.

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 28):
Yes.



Quoting Trident2e (Reply 28):
You obviously don't live in the real world.

So you believe that Italy is going to allow the EU to dictate that AZ buy Airbus, when Italy gets major revenue from Boeing, through Alenia, which I believe is at least partly state owned?

And then you expect that the US is going to allow Airbus unfettered access to the US aircraft market?

I don't think you live in the real world.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Baw716
Posted 2005-06-17 05:39:52 and read 3850 times.

Atmx2000
What is Trident2e thinking? The EU does not dictate anything to Italy. In fact, the EU is in danger of remaining relavant, given the recent Dutch defeat on the question of the EU constitution. Now that statement might be a stretch, but I can guarantee you if the EU attempts to play hardball with Italy, the Italians will be the next ones to toss the EU constitution and then where will the EU be?

I think Trident2e has his politics slightly backwards. The EU is not as powerful as he thinks it is. Alitalia is heavily invested in Boeing products and I can assure you that nothing in that vein is going to change, no matter what the EU blessing was given on the recapitalization of AZ.

By the way, if the EU had said no the the recapitalization, the Italians would have gone right ahead and done it anyway. With the problems the EU has with the EU constitution, they are not going to bark one bit...they have bigger problems to deal with.

The best part of this is the US doesn't have to do anything. They can just sit back and watch the show.

Thoughts?

baw716

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-17 09:20:46 and read 3780 times.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 24):
So how come I always see only overaged flying cigars (MD 80) from AZ?

The MD-82 were delivered:

1983 to 1985 22
1986 to 1990 28
1991 to 1995 38

The older MD80 are being replaced by newer A319/320
The old A300 have been replaced with A321

here's a link:

http://www.geocities.com/azafleet/md80.html

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-17 09:47:28 and read 3767 times.

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 21):
Politics will go to work here and if AZ orders any aircraft you can bet your bottom dollar they will have to make it Airbus.

No, you're wrong. Italy works with Boeing on the 787. They will definitely buy Boeing. Plus you have to keep in mind that 3 Alitalia executives were killed in flight demonstration on an A330 in Toulouse.

Udo, the Euro is high. It's not the dollar being low. It's the Euro being high. A lot of Italian companies are facing bankruptcy and Italian politicians are helpless. It's a similar case to Argentina when it's valuta was pegged to the high flying dollar. It wrecked Argentina. Italy has lost of manufacturing. Germany has lots of services oriented business. Manufacturers rely on export. With the high Euro exports dry up.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-17 09:50:15 and read 3762 times.

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 24):
Do you have numbers for the different types of aircraft?

Check here.

http://www.geocities.com/azafleet/

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-06-17 10:21:40 and read 3734 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 34):
Udo, the Euro is high.

No doubt it is. But other countries (e.g. the ones I mentioned) don't seem to so many problems with the currency. My point simply was there are other reasons to blame in Italy other than the Euro.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 34):
Plus you have to keep in mind that 3 Alitalia executives were killed in flight demonstration on an A330 in Toulouse.

I have never heard that - seriously. Do you have a link? Would like to read more about that.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: IDAWA
Posted 2005-06-17 10:37:50 and read 3727 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 36):
Would like to read more about that.

As far as I know, when Alitalia was choosing between the A330 and the 767 in the early '90s, they sent two of their pilots, Capt.Nassetti and Capt.Racchetti, aboard the A330 test flight that crashed. They were probably evaluating the A330's performance.

The accident played a major role in favor of the 767, that was chosen over the A330. The first two 767s, I-DEIB and I-DEIC, were named after the two deceased pilots.


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I have been to the Alitalia flight training center in Rome and there's also a placard commemorating the two near the MD-80 simulator.

I-DAWA

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: EK156
Posted 2005-06-17 10:51:07 and read 3694 times.

I thought EK were interested in buying Alitalia...what happened there?

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Glareskin
Posted 2005-06-17 11:21:28 and read 3680 times.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 35):
Check here.

Thanks come and go!

This confirms they have an awful lot of MD 80's...

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: ComeAndGo
Posted 2005-06-17 11:32:11 and read 3675 times.

The original article I read was published in Aviation Week and Space Technology years ago. AW&ST 4/17/95 page 44.

Anyway I did search and here are some links.

http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publ.../Institution/Risks/COPY/16.19.html

http://www.informatics.sussex.ac.uk/users/blayw/flyingl.html
look under "Applying the Lessons: What, if any, are the differences between aircraft and software?" This article describes the exact cause of the accident.

Topic: RE: Alitalia Interested In 787
Username: Karan69
Posted 2005-06-17 14:18:54 and read 3627 times.

Quoting Jr (Reply 12):
Are any of the MD11s still in service as of right now?

I do know they operate MXP-BOM-MXP daily, any other??


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