Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2174805/

Topic: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: PanAm747
Posted 2005-06-17 01:05:40 and read 6083 times.

Okay, perhaps it's a silly question, but here goes:

About a month ago, I helped a teacher at my school plan her trip on Delta SAN-ATH, via CVG and JFK (she is a Delta Premiere member). It was kind of fun showing her how the internet timetables work, and I helped her with flight schedules for internal Greece travel (Athens-Channia-Thessaloniki-Athens) on Olympic Airways.

Here's the question - with so many Delta flights from JFK to Europe, why is there not more of a concentration of domestic flights to/from JFK to connect? Yes, I realize that B6 has developed a significant hub there, and that Song is focusing on competing with that, but does Delta rely heavily on O&D passengers out of NYC as justification for keeping that many flights at JFK instead of CVG or ATL?

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-06-17 01:20:36 and read 6037 times.

Right.

LGA and EWR are better situated to handle the domestic demand for NYC travel. So many of domestic routes would not work from JFK especially those to smaller sized markets.

But the more apt term for Delta's operation there is "gateway". They rely on local NYC demand to fill International flights and have feeder flights from many destinations to help out. But they don't really get into domestic connecting service.

One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business. Even CO as big as they are does not connect many domestic passengers in EWR.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-06-17 01:34:17 and read 6005 times.

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
with so many Delta flights from JFK to Europe, why is there not more of a concentration of domestic flights to/from JFK to connect?

Well JFK is more of international flights and then connecting them to their hubs and some other focus cities. Song is building up so I guess there is no need for DL to build up there to. As Song gets bigger at JFK, then DL will be International and flights to hubs. Not much else, probably a while away though.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: LGAtoIND
Posted 2005-06-17 01:37:17 and read 6007 times.

There are many connections possible at JFK on DL. I know that Comair has numerous flights to many smaller cities to connect with DL's International bank at JFK. IND, CVG, RDU, PHL, STL, PIT, are just some examples.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TinPusher007
Posted 2005-06-17 01:52:14 and read 5955 times.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
LGA and EWR are better situated to handle the domestic demand for NYC travel. So many of domestic routes would not work from JFK especially those to smaller sized markets.

This really isn't true as evidenced by B6. LGA has a limited number of domestic cities that can be served due to the 1500nm perimeter rule. EWR is in NEW JERSEY...nuff said. But New York isn't really in the best location geographically to connect passengers on domestic flights. To answer the original question, I think DL just screwed the pooch on building up JFK and didn't do so until its territory was threatened/stolen by B6.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Luv2fly
Posted 2005-06-17 01:59:56 and read 5928 times.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business. Even CO as big as they are does not connect many domestic passengers in EWR.

Your kidding right?

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-06-17 02:18:55 and read 5899 times.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 5):
Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business. Even CO as big as they are does not connect many domestic passengers in EWR.

Your kidding right?

I know, are you kidding, do you live in NY????? It is pretty big hub if you ask me, hint hundreds of flight to everywhere and the ads on every street in Manhattan.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-06-17 02:44:08 and read 5841 times.

It doesn't have anything to do with the size of CO's operation. It's big. But the domestic business to/from EWR primarily O&D, not connecting. So in that respect it's not a connecting hub. Internationally you could look at as a gateway. Not that calling it a hub is wrong. The do connect domestic passengers.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: JetBlueAtJFK
Posted 2005-06-17 03:02:44 and read 5802 times.

Right, but it is more than that. It isn't so much connecting, it is big on connecting but alot of it is O&D.

In other words to all the people in NYC and lots at CO it is a hub but to the rest it is a gateway. So you are right. But it is both.

 airplane jetBlueAtJFK airplane 

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Allstarflyer
Posted 2005-06-17 03:47:02 and read 5731 times.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 1):
One could argue that EWR is a gateway not a hub for CO because they rely so much on local O&D business

Huh?  confused 

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 8):
In other words to all the people in NYC and lots at CO it is a hub but to the rest it is a gateway.

It's a major domicile of theirs that uses CO Express to connect passengers to mainline flights. That's a good start for calling it a hub.

-R

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2005-06-17 04:03:13 and read 5955 times.

Just for background information, here are the 419 flights leaving EWR tommorrow for other destinations, plus the three bus "flights" for ABE:

ABE: 3x BUS
ACK: 2x ERJ
ALB: 3x ERJ, 1x ER3
AMS: 1x 764, 1x 762
ARN: 1x 752
ATL: 2x 733, 7x 735
AUA: 1x 752
AUS: 2x 735
AVL: 2x ERJ
BDA: 1x 738, 2x 73G
BDL: 4x ERJ
BFS: 1x 752
BGR: 3x ERJ
BHM: 2x ERJ
BHX: 2x 752
BNA: 4x ERJ
BOG: 1x 73G
BOS: 1x 733, 10x 735, 1x ERJ
BQN: 1x 738
BRS: 1x 752
BRU: 1x 764
BTV: 4x ERJ
BUF: 1x 738, 5x ERJ
BWI: 4x ERJ
CAE: 1x ERJ, 1x ER3
CDG: 1x 777, 1x 762
CHS: 3x ERJ
CLE: 1x 752, 2x 739, 1x 738, 1x 733, 1x 735
CLT: 7x ERJ
CMH: 2x 735, 4x ERJ
CUN: 1x 752, 1x 733
CVG: 4x ERJ, 1x ER3
DAB: 2x ERJ
DAY: 3x ERJ
DCA: 7x 735, 1x ERJ
DEN: 2x 738, 1x 73G, 1x 735
DFW: 5x 735
DTW: 1x 735, 5x ERJ
DUB: 1x 764
EDI: 2x 752
FCO: 1x 764
FLL: 4x 752, 1x 738, 1x 733
FPO: 1x ERJ
FRA: 1x 777
GLA: 1x 752
GRR: 2x ERJ
GRU: 1x 762
GSO: 5x ERJ
GSP: 3x ERJ
GVA: 1x 762
GYE: 1x 738
HAM: 1x 752
HKG: 1x 777
HNL: 1x 764
HSV: 1x ERJ
IAD: 8x ERJ
IAH: 2x 762, 2x 752, 1x 739, 2x 73G, 4x 735
IND: 1x 752, 1x 735, 3x ERJ
JAX: 2x 735, 2x ERJ
LAS: 2x 753, 2x 752, 1x 739, 1x 738
LAX: 1x 753, 3x 752, 1x 738, 1x 73G
LEX: 1x ERJ
LGW: 2x 777, 1x 752
LIM: 1x 752
LIS: 1x 752
LIT: 2x ERJ
MAD: 1x 777
MAN: 1x 762, 1x 752
MBJ: 1x 733
MCI: 4x ERJ
MCO: 1x 753, 5x 752, 2x 739
MDW: 3x 735
MEM: 2x ERJ, 1x ER3
MEX: 2x 73G
MHT: 1x 735, 3x ERJ
MIA: 1x 738, 3x 73G, 1x 733
MKE: 4x ERJ
MSN: 1x ERJ
MSP: 2x 735, 4x ERJ
MSY: 3x 735
MXP: 1x 762
MYR: 1x 735
NAS: 1x 733
NRT: 1x 777
OKC: 2x ERJ
OMA: 3x ERJ
ORD: 9x 735
ORF: 6x ERJ
OSL: 1x 752
PBI: 4x 738
PDX: 1x 752, 1x 73G
PEK: 1x 777
PHL: 2x ERJ
PHX: 4x 738
PIT: 7x ERJ
POP: 1x 738
POS: 1x 73G
PTY: 1x 738
PVD: 1x 738, 4x ERJ
PWM: 4x ERJ
RDU: 1x 735, 7x ERJ
RIC: 5x ERJ
ROC: 5x ERJ
RSW: 1x 738, 1x 733
SAN: 3x 738
SAT: 1x 733, 1x 735
SAV: 3x ERJ
SDF: 2x ERJ, 1x ER3
SDQ: 1x 753
SEA: 2x 752, 2x 738
SFO: 1x 752, 5x 738
SJC: 1x 73G
SJO: 1x 738
SJU: 1x 752, 2x 738, 1x 73G
SLC: 1x 73G
SNA: 3x 73G
SNN: 1x 752
SRQ: 1x ERJ
STI: 1x 738
STL: 1x 73G, 5x ERJ
STT: 1x 73G
SXM: 1x 73G
SYR: 4x ERJ
TLV: 2x 777
TPA: 1x 738, 4x 733
TUL: 2x ERJ
TYS: 1x ERJ, 1x ER3
XNA: 2x ERJ
YHZ: 1x 735, 3x ERJ
YOW: 3x ERJ, 1x ER3
YQB: 3x ERJ
YUL: 5x ERJ
YVR: 1x 73G
YYT: 1x ERJ
YYZ: 1x 738, 1x 73G, 1x 733, 3x ERJ
ZRH: 1x 762

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Cslusarc
Posted 2005-06-17 04:06:28 and read 5684 times.

I think DL wants its passengers to double and tripple to connect to JFK-exclusive destinations like ATH - Athens, NCE - Nice and VCE - Venice. First I think that DL's transborder, intercontinental and express operations at JFK doesn't fit their network well. They are reminants of DL's (and Pan-Am's) long history. I think that DL's future at JFK is an all Song operation with limited flights to major transcontinental and sun destinations. I think it would make sense for DL to "sell" or swap these route athorities, their related slots (at destination airports) and some flight equiptmemt (like B767-300ERs) to friendly competitor CO. I think that more customers would benefit by having CO operate these routes from EWR than JFK.

That is my take on the situation.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Delta4eva
Posted 2005-06-17 04:17:09 and read 5647 times.

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 11):
I think it would make sense for DL to "sell" or swap these route authorities, their related slots (at destination airports) and some flight equiptmemt (like B767-300ERs) to friendly competitor CO

Why would Delta do this??? Delta is doing just fine with their international gateway at JFK. Even without any connecting traffic, the O&D of NYC is enough. However, Delta does have many connecting opportunities with Song, Delta mainline, and Delta Connection. I have often wondered why Delta just doesn't start calling JFK a hub because of their large operation. I think in the coming years, Delta/Song will continue to build their presence at JFK.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-06-17 04:23:37 and read 5622 times.

Delta tried to have a full hub operation from JFK in 1999-2000. It didn't really work out all that well, but they had added MANY domestic destinations.

N

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2005-06-17 04:28:21 and read 5608 times.

Bigger isn't always better in this case. If DL does well with O&D at JFK, why would they need to add domestic feeder flights to JFK when they can feed the transatlantic flights out/in of CVG and ATL? It's all about profit, not size, and an airline can only do so much with the resources they have.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the availaiblity of slots at JFK during the peak hours when the transatlantic flights arrive and depart. It's my understanding that JFK can get very congested, but I am sure the NYC residents and airline employees can attest to the craziness of JFK when it is backed up. Anybody have any insight on the slot situation at JFK?

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Tsnamm
Posted 2005-06-17 05:03:23 and read 5550 times.

actually a great deal of CO's business in EWR is connecting business,,,thats why they can offer flights to secondary cities in Europe such as EDI and BRS...if O&D traffic was the primary source of passengers BA/AA/DL could and would add flts to these destinations...when you can consolidate 400 plus flights to feed these smaller cities local O&D traffic is not nearly as important...

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Kkfla737
Posted 2005-06-17 06:50:55 and read 5452 times.

Both Pan Am and TWA attempted to use JFK to feed passengers to Europe. But by the time PA and TW developed storng domestic feeder networks, airlines such as American (Chicago), Northwest (Boston and later Detroit), Delta (Atlanta), and Continetal (Newark) developed alternative gateways to Europe with much stronger connecting possibilies and the ability to avoid the infamous JFK customs agents. TWA and PA thus were primarily reliant on O&D to Europe from JFK, and these days with Continetal at EWR and US at PHL offering almost as many European options (I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers) DL need not waste too much effort making JFK a major connecting facility. They do have flights from just about every major city even if they are RJ flights timed to connect with the European departures, and that is good enough.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2005-06-17 07:38:38 and read 5453 times.

For what it's worth, here's DL's schedule at JFK, as of 6/17/05:

AMS: 1x 763
ATH: 1x 763
ATL: 2x 763, 1x 757, 1x 738, 3x CRJ (2x Atlantic Southeast, 1x Comair)
BWI: 1x CR7 (Comair), 1x CRJ (Comair)
BCN: 1x 763
TXL: 1x 763
BOS: 6x CRJ (Comair)
BRU: 1x 763
CHS: 2x CRJ (Comair)
CLT: 1x CRJ (Atlantic Southeast)
ORD: 1x CRJ (Comair)
CVG: 1x 763, 1x 757, 3x CRJ (Comair)
CMH: 1x ERJ (Chautauqua)
DTW: 3x CRJ (Comair)
FLL: 5x 757 (Song)
RSW: 2x 757 (Song)
FRA: 1x 763
GSO: 3x CRJ (Comair)
IND: 1x CRJ (Comair)
IST: 1x 763
JAX: 3x CRJ (Comair)
LAS: 1x 757 (Song)
LAX: 7x 757 (6x Song)
SDF: 3x CRJ (Comair)
MAD: 1x 763
MLB: 2x CRJ (Comair)
MEX: 1x 757
MXP: 1x 763
SVO: 1x 763
BNA: 1x CRJ (Comair)
NAS: 1x 757 (Song)
ORF: 2x CRJ (Comair)
MCO: 5x 757 (Song)
CDG: 2x 763
PNS: 2x CRJ (Comair)
PHL: 1x CRJ (Comair)
PIT: 2x CRJ (Comair)
RDU: 3x CRJ (Comair)
FCO: 1x 763
STL: 2x CRJ (Comair)
SLC: 3x 757
SFO: 1x 763, 3x 757
SJU: 2x 757
STI: 1x 757
SDQ: 1x 763
SAV: 2x CRJ (Comair)
SEA: 2x 757
TLH: 2x CRJ (Comair)
TPA: 3x 757 (Song)
YYZ: 1x CRJ (Comair)
VCE: 1x 763
DCA: 1x 738
IAD: 1x CRJ (Comair)
PBI: 2x 757 (Song)

edited to add:
NCE: 1x 763

[Edited 2005-06-17 08:04:51]

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: RwSEA
Posted 2005-06-17 07:57:49 and read 5371 times.

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 16):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: SESGDL
Posted 2005-06-17 08:13:52 and read 5347 times.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 18):
Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 16):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.

Venice can also be added to that list.

Jeremy

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: SHUPirate1
Posted 2005-06-17 08:17:22 and read 5346 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
Venice can also be added to that list.

You might want to inform Bruce Lakefield that he does not run a US carrier. I was under the impression that US Airways was, in fact, based in Arlington, Virginia, which is part of the United States, and flies nonstop from Philadelphia to Venice.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Panamair
Posted 2005-06-17 08:44:46 and read 5329 times.

DL's operation at JFK is really not that shabby. In fact, if you take DL Mainline, Song, and Delta Connection together, the overall DL presence at JFK is the largest it has ever been. DL now offers nonstop service from JFK to 56 cities/airports (20 international-including YYZ, MEX- and 36 domestic-including SJU) through approx. 115 daily flights. The number of cities offered is more than any other carrier at JFK (including B6).

B6's development at JFK has helped DL tremendously as well in terms of developing JFK into a domestic-travel-friendly airport.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Laxintl
Posted 2005-06-17 08:57:20 and read 5322 times.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 12):
Delta is doing just fine with their international gateway at JFK

Delta is not really doing "just fine" at all at JFK. International operations have shrunk over the years with more and more service being shifted to Atlanta. Between 2000 and 2004, DL has reduced JFK European city pairs from 20 to 13. Domestic operations like the transcons have not worked very well and are being now being tried on Song. JFK international flights are using DL's smallest equipment type, while Atlanta has sees both larger aircraft and additional frequencies on several city pairs.

In 2004, of DL 13, European cities serviced from JFK less then 25% had positive operating margins for the company, while in comparison all but a few of the Atlanta European services had either a positive or breakeven margin for the year.

The biggest beneficiary, and possible cause of Delta slide at JFK has been Continental. The carrier has seen strong growth on Atlantic services in the last few years with multiple destinations being added from its EWR hub.

DL has floundered at JFK with several on/off attempt to grow/reduce the size of the operation. I think with DL's continued cost cutting an realignment more and more services could very well be shifted to Atlanta causing DL JFK reduce in importance in the overall network. DL is clearly being squeezed on many sides, Jetblue on Florida and transcon flying, along with CO at EWR with its domestic and particularly growing international network.
Delta has not been able to achieve positive results with either NYC O&D traffic, nor using JFK as a connecting hub for the last several years.

I know there are some strong DL fans on the a.net that dont want to admit that the last vestiges of Pan Am's European operations at JFK are no longer a crown jewel for Delta. While probably also disliked by some of the same people Atlanta is becoming the airlines international traffic hub. At least it produces some postive results for the carrier something JFK continues to fail to do.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-06-17 09:04:57 and read 5310 times.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.

Venice can also be added to that list.

And Berlin. Though Moscow now has Atlanta service.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Newkai
Posted 2005-06-17 13:17:57 and read 5232 times.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
B6's development at JFK has helped DL tremendously as well in terms of developing JFK into a domestic-travel-friendly airport.

Yep, B6 is DL (and all other trans-atlantic carriers') feeder airline at JFK! For example, DL, AA, and more used to have their subsidiaries feed people into JFK from places like Upstate NY. When B6 came along, the major's puddlejumpers became less attractive than taking a $49 flight with B6. AE and BEX stopped flying to JFK from Upstate around this time. Manually bringing over you luggage used to be a pain, but has gotten a lot easier with the SkyTrain.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2005-06-17 13:31:00 and read 5260 times.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
JFK international flights are using DL's smallest equipment type, while Atlanta has sees both larger aircraft and additional frequencies on several city pairs.

DL has only 5 777s available, and why they are kept at ATL has been explained here: http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2172980/
About the frequencies, let's combine the answer with this comment:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
In 2004, of DL 13, European cities serviced from JFK less then 25% had positive operating margins for the company, while in comparison all but a few of the Atlanta European services had either a positive or breakeven margin for the year.

That has to do with the huge difference in markets between ATL and JFK. At ATL, DL only has competition to AMS (for now), LGW and FRA, everywhere else they either have a monopoly where they could charge what they want, plus CDG where they cooperate with AF. At JFK on the other hand, they chave competition to AMS (for now), ATH (OA), BRU (AA), FRA (LH 3x), CDG (AA), SVO (for now), IST (TK), MAD (IB) and FCO (AA). Only to NCE, BCN and VCE does DL enjoy a monopoly into NYC. And obviously, competition means lower prices. Now, if you were DL and wanted to make money off of your connecting pax (not O&D), which hub would you use? Obviously ATL, because yields to Europe are better from there, so it only is natural that routes from ATL see more frequencies.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
The biggest beneficiary, and possible cause of Delta slide at JFK has been Continental. The carrier has seen strong growth on Atlantic services in the last few years with multiple destinations being added from its EWR hub.

Unfortunately, you are 100% correct.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
DL has floundered at JFK with several on/off attempt to grow/reduce the size of the operation. I think with DL's continued cost cutting an realignment more and more services could very well be shifted to Atlanta causing DL JFK reduce in importance in the overall network.

The last 13 months prove you wrong on that account.
Within this time, DL/Song/DCI has launched new service to CHS, RSW, GSO, SJU, SDQ, STI, TXL, CLT, SDF, MLB, TLH, PNS, ORF, SAV,NAS, and added frequencies or upgraded equipment to ATL, BWI, STL, JAX, RDU, DTW, PIT, SEA and SFO. On the negative side, they discontinued SAN and DEN, which were started within these 13 months to begin with, PHX, have reduced SDQ by one frequency, and will soon drop RSW. No compare the two sides. If you still think that DL would love to dispose of its JFK gateway, you need to show good arguments.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
I know there are some strong DL fans on the a.net that dont want to admit that the last vestiges of Pan Am's European operations at JFK are no longer a crown jewel for Delta.

JFK hasn't been the crown jewel ever since 1996, when DL massively beefed up Europe service from ATL because of the Summer Olympics. However, JFK is still an integral part of the Delta network.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
While probably also disliked by some of the same people Atlanta is becoming the airlines international traffic hub.

ATL has always been Delta's main international hub, long before LAX was aqcuired from Western or JFK from Pan Am, which is a natural choice given where DL is HQ'ed.

[Edited 2005-06-17 13:40:08]

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2005-06-17 14:19:45 and read 5212 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 25):
At JFK on the other hand, they chave competition to AMS (for now), ATH (OA), BRU (AA), FRA (LH 3x), CDG (AA), SVO (for now), IST (TK), MAD (IB) and FCO (AA). Only to NCE, BCN and VCE does DL enjoy a monopoly into NYC.

But this is exactly the problem....DL is afraid (or not able) to compete.

They bailed on LAX because the competition was too strong.
They bailed on DFW because the competition was too strong.
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong.
What's going to happen when B6 launches a slew of E190's against DL's CRJ's out of JFK?

The only place DL seems to be able to compete are in hubs where DL controls a majority of the traffic.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: EA CO AS
Posted 2005-06-17 15:04:21 and read 5139 times.

I was under the impression that US Airways was, in fact, based in Arlington, Virginia

For the moment, yes. Soon to be Tempe, Arizona.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TinPusher007
Posted 2005-06-17 15:48:54 and read 5078 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
But this is exactly the problem....DL is afraid (or not able) to compete.

They bailed on LAX because the competition was too strong.
They bailed on DFW because the competition was too strong.
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong.
What's going to happen when B6 launches a slew of E190's against DL's CRJ's out of JFK?

The only place DL seems to be able to compete are in hubs where DL controls a majority of the traffic.

Exactly my point....DL is my favorite airline but the only place they flex any muscle is mostly ATL and its other two hubs in CVG and SLC. Everywhere else it seems they have no balls and run when competition turns up the heat. It bears mentioning that song has been a very good answer to B6...I will certainly grant them that. But DL is not nearly as aggressive as other carriers out there.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-06-17 15:53:40 and read 5061 times.

laxintl

You seem to know what is going with Delta up in JFK in the past. I would characterize it the same way...But you're going off years where Delta had a much higher cost structure. We are smack in the middle of huge cost overhaul that does not even begin to show up until this Quarter.

This has always been a business with small margins, so it doesn't take that big a shift to turn things around.



And a little NYC factoid.

Delta has 2/3rds the number of passengers as CO in NYC. A 14.8% share compared to 22.2% for CO.

[Edited 2005-06-17 15:55:34]

[Edited 2005-06-17 15:56:30]

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Panamair
Posted 2005-06-17 16:38:26 and read 5049 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong

Actually that is not entirely true. Some of these JFK-Europe flights were simply not making money, competition or no competition. For example, you cannot say that JFK-LYS/ARN/MUC were all dropped due to excessive competition; DL had no direct competition (U.S. or non-U.S.) from JFK in those markets at all. Also, JFK-MAN/SNN/DUB/ZRH/HEL/TXL were all dropped when there were no other U.S. carriers in the market either. Another good example is JFK-BRU. It was dropped after 9/11 but then reinstated later in 2001 after SN went bust. Since then, DL has had to contend with both CO (albeit from EWR) and AA (the latest entrant) in that market and it has remained in it till today.

Some a.netters are lamenting that DL has cut a whole lot of the flights inherited from Pan Am but that is because some of them were never profitable even with Pan Am. Since the PA acquisition, DL has added nonstops from JFK that PA never served directly such as:
JFK-ATH (PA served ATH via FRA)
JFK-IST (PA served IST via FRA)
JFK-VCE (PA never served VCE)

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-06-17 17:04:55 and read 4975 times.

At JFK all US airlines are in a much weaker position versus their European counterparts. You just do not see one US airline being the dominant carrier on this end. LH controls the business to Germany, AF controls France, BA controls UK. So much so that they can actually do a very good job of keeping business travel off routes they do not even fly on. LYS/MUC/TXL/HAM..etc. They are in tight with European travel consortiums and European corporate travel departments. CO is able to to a much better job because the are the only game in town on that side of NYC and the can single connect so many US markets.

The only chance US carriers have is to drive costs lower. That's it.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Klwright69
Posted 2005-06-17 17:13:30 and read 4963 times.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 12):
Why would Delta do this??? Delta is doing just fine with their international gateway at JFK.

If that is the case why didn't JFK-NRT work out? it does not bode well if DL plans on launching JFK-Asia services in the near future does it? NRT is a major, major destination.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
It didn't really work out all that well, but they had added MANY domestic destinations

. True, how come they couldn't make DEN and SAN work? Those are major destinations.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 29):
Delta has 2/3rds the number of passengers as CO in NYC. A 14.8% share compared to 22.2% for CO.

True, but given the size of the market that is an enormous difference.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 19):
(I think Istanbul, Moscow and Athens are the only exclusive Delta cities left in Europe among US carriers)

There's also Nice, France.

Venice can also be added to that list.

And Berlin

No, not Berlin. CO is flying to Berlin also (or will in a few days)

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 17:26:46 and read 4922 times.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 21):
DL's operation at JFK is really not that shabby.

Maybe, maybe not. But what isn't debatable is that WHERE their operation is located IS shabby beyond belief. If getting to EWR weren't more inconvenient than flying out of JFK for someone, who in the hell would want to fly out of/into the hell hole that is JFK T2 vs. EWR Terminal C, especially when you can now earn SkyMiles on CO? JFK T2 looks and feels like a third world facility... undoubtedly the most confusing, cramped, ugly and dirty international terminal we have in this country. How embarrassing.

CO's EWR Terminal C is beautiful, with fantastic shopping and facilities.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-06-17 17:30:27 and read 4910 times.

That is crazy. It depends on where you at if JFK or EWR is more than convenient. EWR gets only 14% of Manhattan business. Kings/Queens/Long Island much much less.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 17:33:55 and read 4893 times.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 34):
It depends on where you at if JFK or EWR is more than convenient.

No shit. That's not my point. Re-read my post. My point is, if the 2 airports were equally convenient for someone, why would they choose JFK... Delta's facilities are absolutely hideous.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Kkfla737
Posted 2005-06-17 17:34:57 and read 4896 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
They bailed on LAX because the competition was too strong.
They bailed on DFW because the competition was too strong.
They have slowly bailed on many of the transatlantic flights because the competition is too strong.
What's going to happen when B6 launches a slew of E190's against DL's CRJ's out of JFK?

And in essence they have bailed on Orlando also. At one time Delta flew from Orlando to major cities throughout the nation, and some European destinations like Frankfurt as well. Now Delta flies RJs to medium sized Southern cities. Delta has had three incarnations at Orlando- the first an effort to relieve traffic on ATL with flights to major cities and int'l flights as well, the second with flights to places where WN was anticipated to be going like Buffalo, Albany, Providence and Nashville using Delta Express, and the third now where cities like Little Rock and Huntsville are connected to Orlando. Delta bailed on the first plan when US and UA increased their Orlando presence, even though Delta clearly had the edge being a carrier that had tradtional ties in all Florida markets (including Miami where Delta cut and ran after AA moved in, and Fort Lauderdale where Delta has only recently begun fighting back from LCC and legacy competition), and bailed on the 2nd when WN did in fact begin services to the cities mentioned. How long will the RJ flying from Orlando, Fort Lauderdale and Tampa last? What happens if Jet Blue or Air Tran decided to fly the same routes? Delta will once again bail out.

Delta's pullback from LAX was particularly sad since WA left Delta with a huge market share after the merger at LAX and lots and lots of increased traffic possibilies when integrated into Delta's larger network. At the time in the late 80s, AA wasn't even a factor at LAX, WN hadn't really pushed in hard yet and CO was pulling away from LAX. Why then did Delta fail? As FLYPNS1 stated they flinch everything any hint of competition comes, and they constantly shift their business plan more so than any other legacy carrier, even the poorly run US Airways.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-06-17 17:37:53 and read 4880 times.

If a tree fell in the woods and no one heard does it make sound? What does a this hypothetical have to do with reality?

You think if JFK had better facilities they would get more business? Very little seeing that EWR gets only 14% of Manhattan business.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 17:55:58 and read 4850 times.

You're a day late and a dollar short... you still don't get it.

I'll dumb it down for you:

Delta's Terminal 3 SUCKS. IT'S ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. That's really my only point.

I live in Manhattan, equidistant from both EWR and JFK. People flying in to do business in Manhattan are also roughly equidistant from both airports.

I can choose to fly out of EWR or JFK. I would never fly to/from Europe out of Delta's T2, and I don't understand those in a similar situation (see aforementioned parameters) who would WANT or CHOOSE to fly in/out of that hell hole over CO's Terminal C... especially now that Delta and Continental are partners. It just doesn't make sense. This isn't a hypothetical example... it's real.

(edited for typo)

[Edited 2005-06-17 17:59:41]

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2005-06-17 17:56:00 and read 4850 times.

Ok, so if DL is always running away with their tail between their legs, then why did DL even set up Song to compete with JB and not just give up JFK? Why are they still coexisting with Air Tran at ATL? How can they handle all the LCC competition at FLL?
I find it interesting that whenever DL pulls out of a market, it is considered just fleeing from competition and showing weekness. Ever heard of adjusting to the market to make money? Obviously, DL saw that there were markets ex JFK/MCO/LAX, where there was no money to be made. And as always, no word on positive news at other hubs.
DL now serves 16 cities in Europe from ATL? Who cares, they downgraded JFK.
DL now offers more flights from TPA and FLL than ever before each? Who cares, they have downgraded MCO.
SLC is now bigger than it has ever been under Western? Who cares, they downgraded LAX.
It is always the same complaints over and over again.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 18:01:03 and read 4819 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 33):
who in the hell would want to fly out of/into the hell hole that is JFK T2 vs. EWR Terminal C, especially when you can now earn SkyMiles on CO? JFK T2 looks and feels like a third world facility

By the way, I meant to say JFK T3, although T2 is just as bad.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TinPusher007
Posted 2005-06-17 18:09:08 and read 4797 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
Ok, so if DL is always running away with their tail between their legs, then why did DL even set up Song to compete with JB and not just give up JFK?

I did mention that song is a formidable response to B6.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
Why are they still coexisting with Air Tran at ATL?

ATL isn't in question...they own it. I would guess 75% of their eggs are in that basket and thats part of our point.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
DL now serves 16 cities in Europe from ATL? Who cares, they downgraded JFK

See above.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
DL now offers more flights from TPA and FLL than ever before each? Who cares, they have downgraded MCO.

Yes but with RJ's from all three cities in fact.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
SLC is now bigger than it has ever been under Western? Who cares, they downgraded LAX.

Only because they dumped DFW after they brought a knife to gunfight going after mamouth AA with...you guessed it..RJ's.

There are more ways for DL to be successful than just ATL AND RJ'S!

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: ORD
Posted 2005-06-17 19:02:39 and read 4749 times.

I like Delta but just want to clarify a few points.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
SLC is now bigger than it has ever been under Western?

This is true if you include Delta Connection. But mainline is significantly lower. At its high point Delta had about 165 mainline flights out of SLC and now it is down to about 100.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
DL now offers more flights from TPA and FLL than ever before each?

Same is true here, at least for FLL. Delta once had about 45 mainline flights at FLL and it is now about 30.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2005-06-17 19:21:31 and read 4718 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 39):
Ever heard of adjusting to the market to make money?

And how much money is DL making?

Clearly, there are times when you have to cut your losses and move on, but you also have to be willing to defend some markets. So far, it seems the only markets DL will defend are ATL, SLC, CVG and to some extent the big Florida cities. And much of DL's defense of these markets relies on a flood of high-cost RJ's. The RJ's may work in some instances, but how will they stand up to B6's E190's? And will all these RJ's ever produce enough revenue so that DL can dig itself out of nearly $22 Billion dollars of debt?

DL is supposed to be a major global carrier. But it's very hard to be a major global carrier when your three hubs are ATL, SLC and CVG. Of those three, only ATL is positioned to be truly global hub. This is why you need to be able to maintain a large presence in places like JFK or LAX or SFO.

So while AA and CO are bringing in premium revenue from all their new Asian flights, DL (who has no natural Asian gateway) is left flying a bunch of low-yield tourists on high-CASM RJ's to Florida. Who's strategy do you think will work?

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Tsnamm
Posted 2005-06-17 19:30:40 and read 4697 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 35):
Delta's facilities are absolutely hideous.

However the IAT and Terminal One are state of the art and as nice as Terminal C in EWR...and I would expect AA's new terminal to also be that nice or better...however the "worldport" that DL uses hasn't been upgraded since Pan Am owned it...
[quote=TWFirst,reply=33]who in the hell would want to fly out of/into the hell hole that is JFK T2 vs. EWR Terminal C, especially when you can now earn SkyMiles on CO? JFK T2 looks and feels like a third world facility... undoubtedly the most confusing, cramped, ugly and dirty international terminal we have in this country. How embarrassing.

CO's EWR Terminal C is beautiful, with fantastic shopping and facilities.
thankfully terminal 2 is only 1 out of 9 at JFK , and very easy to bash...the newly constructed terminals are as good as anything in EWR...

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 19:48:24 and read 4674 times.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 44):
owever the IAT and Terminal One are state of the art and as nice as Terminal C in EWR...and I would expect AA's new terminal to also be that nice or better...however the "worldport" that DL uses hasn't been upgraded since Pan Am owned it...



Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 44):
thankfully terminal 2 is only 1 out of 9 at JFK , and very easy to bash...the newly constructed terminals are as good as anything in EWR...

Irrelevant. We're talking about Delta and its operations at JFK... not other airlines' operations or their facilities at JFK. Yes, the other terminals are great, but Delta doesn't operate from them.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-06-17 19:55:57 and read 4668 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 38):
Delta's Terminal 3 SUCKS. IT'S ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. That's really my only point.

Nobody picks an airport based on terminals. They pick it based on convenience. Do you really think the business traveler is saying to him/herself that maybe they can get some shopping done before they head out to NCE or TXL? The terminal is the last thing on a traveler's mind when going halfway across the world. Give me a break.
DL wants their facility to appear the best it can but they are dealing with a nearly 50 year old infrastructure and a city that wants the whole bill to be on DL when the renovation topic is brought up. If/when a new terminal is built the logistics of working around the construction is a nightmare in itself.
You are definitely in the minority, but yes you have a choice. Enjoy all the choices of chocolate and alcohol for purchase you have at EWR.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 20:05:49 and read 4635 times.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 46):
Nobody picks an airport based on terminals.

Bullpucky. All things being equal.... equal convenience, comparable price.... a business traveler is going to pick EWR. Why would anyone want to wait around at that hot, smelly, cramped hell hole?? Stop making excuses just because you work for Delta. Why wouldn't the city want Delta to foot the bill for its own, exclusive terminal? JetBlue is going to pay for its new terminal. AA is paying for its new terminal.

People pick certain flights over others because of airports all the time.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TinPusher007
Posted 2005-06-17 20:15:56 and read 4624 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Clearly, there are times when you have to cut your losses and move on, but you also have to be willing to defend some markets. So far, it seems the only markets DL will defend are ATL, SLC, CVG and to some extent the big Florida cities. And much of DL's defense of these markets relies on a flood of high-cost RJ's. The RJ's may work in some instances, but how will they stand up to B6's E190's? And will all these RJ's ever produce enough revenue so that DL can dig itself out of nearly $22 Billion dollars of debt?

DL is supposed to be a major global carrier. But it's very hard to be a major global carrier when your three hubs are ATL, SLC and CVG. Of those three, only ATL is positioned to be truly global hub. This is why you need to be able to maintain a large presence in places like JFK or LAX or SFO.

So while AA and CO are bringing in premium revenue from all their new Asian flights, DL (who has no natural Asian gateway) is left flying a bunch of low-yield tourists on high-CASM RJ's to Florida. Who's strategy do you think will work?

Preach.....this is the best analysis of DL with respect to its operation that I've heard yet. The odd thing is that its been this way with two different management teams. When is someone going to take the healm that will let DL flex its muscle?

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: RJpieces
Posted 2005-06-17 20:19:11 and read 4618 times.

All things being equal.... equal convenience, comparable price.... a business traveler is going to pick EWR.

Sure, all things being equal. But that is RARE. The truth of the matter is that although T3 does suck, it doesn't significantly affect Delta's bottom line.

Btw, am I the only one who enjoys flying from T3? I think it's awesome because you have such a great nostalgic feeling flying from there.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Laxintl
Posted 2005-06-17 20:38:55 and read 4640 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 25):
Now, if you were DL and wanted to make money off of your connecting pax (not O&D), which hub would you use? Obviously ATL, because yields to Europe are better from there, so it only is natural that routes from ATL see more frequencies.

My point exactly. Atlanta grows in prominence for DL's European network while JFK has declined. JFK currently is neither able to get the proper transfer traffic, nor enough O&D to make majority of its European routes produce positive margins.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 25):
The last 13 months prove you wrong on that account.
Within this time, DL/Song/DCI has launched new service to CHS, RSW, GSO, SJU, SDQ, STI, TXL, CLT, SDF, MLB, TLH, PNS, ORF, SAV,NAS, and added frequencies or upgraded equipment to ATL, BWI, STL, JAX, RDU, DTW, PIT, SEA and SFO. On the negative side, they discontinued SAN and DEN, which were started within these 13 months to begin with, PHX, have reduced SDQ by one frequency, and will soon drop RSW. No compare the two sides. If you still think that DL would love to dispose of its JFK gateway, you need to show good arguments.

Like I said, DL continues to have on/off attempts to grow/shrink JFK over the years. Latest seems to be a Song/RJ blitz.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 29):
You seem to know what is going with Delta up in JFK in the past. I would characterize it the same way...But you're going off years where Delta had a much higher cost structure. We are smack in the middle of huge cost overhaul that does not even begin to show up until this Quarter.

Agreed cost structure has been high, however in comparison ATL has consistently out performed JFK's European ops.
Also will be interesting to see with lower cost what the overall cost comparison of Delta will be vis-a-vis its peers. The entire industry seems to be in the midst of a race to the bottom with repeated rounds of cuts.

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 29):
This has always been a business with small margins, so it doesn't take that big a shift to turn things around.

Indeed painfully aware of the thin margins of our industry.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 46):
Nobody picks an airport based on terminals. They pick it based on convenience

True, but terminals do play into the entire travel experience. While maybe not a significant percentage some people I am sure do likely book away from Delta JFK due to facility issues. Its funny the Port Authority a few years back (pre 9/11) conducted a study comparing EWR and JFK. In it specifically made mention of the fact some people that prefer to route either via other airlines/cities to strictly avoid having to clear customs at the cramped and crowded DL JFK Worldport and then IAB facilities. EWR was overall rated much higher in the publics perception of its overall travel experience. Much of this info was used as part of the modernization efforts at JFK.
Being able to create a comfortable stress free environment on the traveler is an important element of your product. This becomes even more important for the high yield business traveler whom has less sensitivity to fares.

At the end of the day, I still stand by the contention that DL has failed to display a clear JFK strategy for the last decade.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 20:46:45 and read 4588 times.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 49):
The truth of the matter is that although T3 does suck, it doesn't significantly affect Delta's bottom line.

How is it possible to draw that conclusion? I think it is much more plausable to conclude that Delta's facilities costs and opportunity costs associated with operating out of that terminal are high... thus affecting the bottom line. And in today's operating environment... ANY added costs are significant. Just look at Delta's balance sheet.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Tsnamm
Posted 2005-06-17 21:38:52 and read 4542 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 35):
My point is, if the 2 airports were equally convenient for someone, why would they choose JFK



Quoting TWFirst (Reply 45):
Irrelevant. We're talking about Delta and its operations at JFK... not other airlines' operations or their facilities at JFK. Yes, the other terminals are great, but Delta doesn't operate from them

you go back and forth from DL specifically to JFK generally...my only point to you is that there are state of the art facilities at JFK, not just EWR...and choosing an AIRPORT by modern facilities JFK has just as many if not more than EWR. If your only travel options are CO or DL , then EWR is the place for you. CO just got done investing $1 billion in upgrades to terminal C...I AGREE with you that DL has not invested 1 cent in upgrading Terminal 2&3...thankfully for JFK, DL is hardly the only airline flying there.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-06-17 21:46:41 and read 4524 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):
Why wouldn't the city want Delta to foot the bill for its own, exclusive terminal? JetBlue is going to pay for its new terminal.

The difference with DL is that the city wanted all the money up front. B6 got a 40 year mortgage.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):
People pick certain flights over others because of airports all the time.

For convenience. I said that. People won't inconvenience themselves to go to a different airport because they like the shops or prefer McDonalds to Burger King.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):
All things being equal.... equal convenience, comparable price

How many people can actually say that both price and convenience are the same? To save $200 of course someone is going to pick the cheaper airport. If price is the same than someone is going to pick the more convenient airport. Rarely is there an instance where both are the equal.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-06-17 21:47:41 and read 4522 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):
Why wouldn't the city want Delta to foot the bill for its own, exclusive terminal? JetBlue is going to pay for its new terminal.

The difference with DL is that the city wanted all the money up front. B6 got a 40 year mortgage.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):
People pick certain flights over others because of airports all the time.

For convenience. I said that. People won't inconvenience themselves to go to a different airport because they like the shops or prefer McDonalds to Burger King.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 47):
All things being equal.... equal convenience, comparable price

How many people can actually say that both price and convenience are the same? To save $200 of course someone is going to pick the cheaper airport. If price is the same than someone is going to pick the more convenient airport. Rarely is there an instance where both are the equal.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-17 22:25:36 and read 4477 times.

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 52):
you go back and forth from DL specifically to JFK generally

Ummmm, no. Please re-read my posts. At all points, I am specifically comparing DL's JFK Terminal 2/3 ops to CO's EWR Terminal C ops. Nowhere did I mention JFK in general.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 54):
The difference with DL is that the city wanted all the money up front. B6 got a 40 year mortgage.

Most likely because B6 has good credit.... DL doesn't.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 53):
For convenience

No. People avoid/avoided connecting in places like STL and the old DTW, and flying in/out of the old MDW like the plague. Why? Because the facilities SUCK/SUCKED. I'm willing to bet people also avoid JFK Terminals 2 and 3 because they suck, especially if they have DL miles and can get them from flying Continental. If you're flying 8 hours to Europe, and you live in Brooklyn, what's an extra 30 minutes to an hour to get to EWR? Why hang out in a nightmarish dump if you don't have to?

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: B4real
Posted 2005-06-17 23:20:13 and read 4257 times.

There's really no discussion here. DL actually calls JFK a hub.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=9748
quoting:


Today marks the first time any airline has offered customers non-stop service from the U.S. Southeast to Moscow, Russia’s capital and key gateway to the 12 countries that make up the Commonwealth of Independent States. Delta is the only U.S. airline to serve Russia nonstop and also serves Moscow from its John F. Kennedy International Airport hub.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: JFKLGANYC
Posted 2005-06-18 01:41:33 and read 3883 times.

"JFK T2 looks and feels like a third world facility... undoubtedly the most confusing, cramped, ugly and dirty international terminal we have in this country. How embarrassing."

Besides me liking T3, I have to ask--WHAT THE HELL ARE U TALKING ABOUT??

AA Term at BOS
DTW for every airline except NW
STL old TWA concourses
MSY
LAX DL
IAD UA

If you think DL terminals are bad--go visit any of the above. No opinion. They are much, much, much worse!

PJ

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Padcrasher
Posted 2005-06-18 02:01:08 and read 3860 times.

What's wrong with DL terminal at LAX?

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TinPusher007
Posted 2005-06-18 03:12:26 and read 3815 times.

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 57):
LAX DL

Ill use your own words here...

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 57):
I have to ask--WHAT THE HELL ARE U TALKING ABOUT??



Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 58):
What's wrong with DL terminal at LAX?

Im with Padcrasher...what on earth do you see wrong with DL's LAX facility. It is one of the most elegant terminals I've ever been in...most certainly not to mentioned in the same sentence as JFK terminal 2/3.

[Edited 2005-06-18 03:14:55]

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-06-18 03:30:07 and read 3791 times.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 55):
Brooklyn, what's an extra 30 minutes to an hour to get to EWR? Why hang out in a nightmarish dump if you don't have to?

Yeah I would much rather sit in NY traffic around 4pm than sit in Terminal 3. Obviously this is your opinion and I don't see anyone else on this thread saying they would go out of their way to avoid DL JFK. Everyone has their opinion, you are just in the minority on this one.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Apodino
Posted 2005-06-18 03:31:13 and read 3797 times.

Depends on what you are talking about. Certainly DL's Terminal 5 facility is among the nice parts of LAX and a pleasure to travel through. But DL also has gates in terminal 6, and Terminal 6 is among the worst and least pleasant to travel through in LAX.

As far as AA in BOS being on the list. There are certainly lots of problems in Terminal B, mainly lack of space and room for check in prior to security. That having been said, AA has poured tons of money into that facility over the past ten years, and it is clean and not bad looking. However they didn't modernize the old pan am section of the terminal very well. The rest of the terminal is pretty modern, especially the part where the old AA logo from many years ago hangs up. I still think they need to get rid of the parking garage in terminal B and use the space to build modern and spacious counters for US and AA as well as one central security checkpoint,but I just don't see it happening.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TWFirst
Posted 2005-06-18 03:45:26 and read 3783 times.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 60):
Yeah I would much rather sit in NY traffic around 4pm than sit in Terminal 3.

Well, you go right ahead and sit in NY traffic... I'll take rail from Brooklyn, thank you very much.... and if it isn't rush hour, then I'll take a car service, and my point is still valid.

There also hasn't been anyone saying they enjoy T3 other than for the "nostalgia"...

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: TinPusher007
Posted 2005-06-18 10:47:03 and read 3674 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 61):
Depends on what you are talking about. Certainly DL's Terminal 5 facility is among the nice parts of LAX and a pleasure to travel through. But DL also has gates in terminal 6, and Terminal 6 is among the worst and least pleasant to travel through in LAX.

I have flown out of both. While the 2 to 3 gates that DL has on T6 are not as nice as T5..it too doesn't belong on that list.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Klwright69
Posted 2005-06-18 19:10:16 and read 3559 times.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 63):

I have flown out of both. While the 2 to 3 gates that DL has on T6 are not as nice as T5..it too doesn't belong on that list.

I completely agree on that! The comparison is an exaggeration.

Topic: RE: Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub?
Username: Commavia
Posted 2005-06-18 19:36:10 and read 3547 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 61):
As far as AA in BOS being on the list. There are certainly lots of problems in Terminal B, mainly lack of space and room for check in prior to security. That having been said, AA has poured tons of money into that facility over the past ten years, and it is clean and not bad looking. However they didn't modernize the old pan am section of the terminal very well. The rest of the terminal is pretty modern, especially the part where the old AA logo from many years ago hangs up. I still think they need to get rid of the parking garage in terminal B and use the space to build modern and spacious counters for US and AA as well as one central security checkpoint,but I just don't see it happening.

I agree -- AA's BOS terminal, on balance, isn't that bad. Granted, maybe it doesn't look as 'sleek' as some other terminals, but it is generally clean and modern. The ticket counter is crazy though because of the lack of space. IIRC, the next project AA is working on with MassPort is connecting the two parts of their Terminal B inside security so you don't have to go through a checkpoint to get to the end gates. Also, pre-9/11, MassPort and AA were working on extending Terminal B out and building an international arrivals facility for AA's LHR/CDG flights (now add MAN, SNN, and maybe a few others coming soon to that list!). However, when 9/11 happened, those plans were cancelled and thus AA international arrivals are still in Terminal E.


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/