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Topic: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-08-05 04:28:04 and read 4420 times.

American Airlines and Swiss will be ending their codeshares on trans-Atlantic flights form Zurich to Los Angeles and O'Hare effective 30 October 2005. Not coincidently, O'Hare and LAX are Star Alliance hubs.

However, Swiss and American will continue to codeshare on routes from Zurcih to Boston, Dallas, Miami, and New York City, as well as intra-Europe, Africa, Tel Aviv, and Mumbai.

This is how it will be at least through the winter timetable. I've been hearing that LX/AA would like to keep a partnership going despite Star, though it will clearly be a reduced partnership. Keyword here is like to, because it may not be possible. There are issues with this, such as some immunity issues, that might make it difficult.

Until then, AA will continue to partner with LX on flights to the East Coast.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2005-08-05 06:28:06 and read 4343 times.

This was bound to happed following the recent Lufthansa take over, and I fear this will only be the beginning. Apart from possible regulatory challenges, I can't possibly imagine that Lufthansa would be pleased with a continuing partnership between LX and AA. So, I believe that we will see the cooperation further stripped down in the future, likely with the abolishment of the remaining transatlantic joint operations and the beyond-hub codesharing.

For Swiss, such a move might mean the end of the MIA flight, as this flight relies at least partly on connecting traffic to and from the Carribean and Central America. I cannot believe that LH would sustain a year round MIA flight at MUC whereas this seems not possible at MUC. The end of the MIA flight would be detrimental for both AA and LX, as this flight is a moneyspinner. I do however not believe that AA would contemplate starting its own MIA-ZRH ops without beyond ZRH codeshare ops.

As for AA, the end of the LX-relationship might lead to a reinforced cooperation with SN and reliance on its extensive European network. AA might very well strengthen its position at BRU with the addition of a MIA/BOS/DFW link. It is also rumored that AA's future India plans call for a BOM operation with an intermediate BRU stop.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-08-05 06:45:52 and read 4317 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
As for AA, the end of the LX-relationship might lead to a reinforced cooperation with SN and reliance on its extensive European network. AA might very well strengthen its position at BRU with the addition of a MIA/BOS/DFW link.

While I love SN and BRU I don't think AA would resort to them for anything beyond their current operation. SN sole feed from North America comes from the couple of AA BRU flights. Unless SN were to expand themselves into North America you can't say anything AA does would strengthen their position in Europe. Aside from that SN has limited service when compared to other European gateways of CDG, FRA, MUC, FCO, MXP, AMS. AA is better having BA or IB pick up the slack.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
Keyword here is like to, because it may not be possible.

DL would have loved to keep SR...LX for their Atlantic partnership even with their new AF codeshare, but AF would have none of it and it was hard to compete against AF's limitless destinations. Basically it became one or the other and unfortunately for SR they had to go. I

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-08-05 07:03:35 and read 4302 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
For Swiss, such a move might mean the end of the MIA flight, as this flight relies at least partly on connecting traffic to and from the Carribean and Central America. I cannot believe that LH would sustain a year round MIA flight at MUC whereas this seems not possible at MUC.

Lufthansa has decided not to operate MIA-MUC this winter, letting LTU have the route to themselves, because they rather have Swiss handle MIA-ZRH. MIA-ZRH is a stronger yielding market. For now, this is how it will be handled, with the ZRH flight essentially replacing LH's MUC flight. Swiss pulling out of MIA is definitley a possibility, but Lufthansa/Swiss have chosen to make Miami a FRA/ZRH station, rather than FRA/MUC, at least this winter. The high-yields in Miami<->Europe flights come from flights to southern Europe - especially France and Italy - and Zurich is a better hub for these high-yielding passengers. Miami traffic to northern Europe is traditionally lower yielding holiday traffic.

There has also been talk about Swiss leaving LAX, JNB, and/or BOS.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
I do however not believe that AA would contemplate starting its own MIA-ZRH ops without beyond ZRH codeshare ops.

AA actually is studying MIA-ZRH if Swiss pulls out, it is very possible. It would replace DFW-ZRH.

[Edited 2005-08-05 07:06:27]

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2005-08-05 07:35:58 and read 4292 times.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 2):
SN sole feed from North America comes from the couple of AA BRU flights. Unless SN were to expand themselves into North America you can't say anything AA does would strengthen their position in Europe. Aside from that SN has limited service when compared to other European gateways of CDG, FRA, MUC, FCO, MXP, AMS. AA is better having BA or IB pick up the slack.

SN European network is much more extensive than many would believe and connecting through BRU is a stroll through the park compared to connecting at Heathrow. As for IB and its MAD hub, it's hard to see how MAD would cater to connecting passengers to Berlin, Gotenborg or even Budapest. I'd say that SN is by far the best option for AA should the LX cooperation come to an end.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
There has also been talk about Swiss leaving LAX, JNB, and/or BOS.

I'm aware of those lines of thought, and my money is on LAX. I somehow can't see LX leaving JNB, for sure not now that OS is contemplating a return. LAX has been a problem station for LX and before that for SR, with high loads but very questionable yields. SFO, served by SR between 1997 and 2001, was even worse but with a large Star Hub, that might change. Nevertheless, I believe it's likely LX will withdraw from the California market and relaunch some Asia flights, likely to India (DEL) and China (PEK and/or PVG).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
MIA-ZRH is a stronger yielding market. For now, this is how it will be handled, with the ZRH flight essentially replacing LH's MUC flight. Swiss pulling out of MIA is definitley a possibility, but Lufthansa/Swiss have chosen to make Miami a FRA/ZRH station, rather than FRA/MUC, at least this winter. The high-yields in Miami<->Europe flights come from flights to southern Europe - especially France and Italy - and Zurich is a better hub for these high-yielding passengers. Miami traffic to northern Europe is traditionally lower yielding holiday traffic.

It'll be interesting to see how LH is going to deal with the MUC and ZRH hubs, which are to a large extent each other's rivals. Spreading out secondary longhaul destinations over the 2 hubs, will necessitate sufficient European feed at both hubs, and therefore a lot of duplicate service. I would venture to predict that within the next 5 years, LH will choose for either MUC or ZRH as a longhaul hub, with the loser being left with very limited loghaul ops.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
AA actually is studying MIA-ZRH if Swiss pulls out, it is very possible. It would replace DFW-ZRH.

I've always thought they would bring back the ORD-ZRH connection as a replacement of DFW-ZRH if and when the LX-cooperation ceases to exist. As for MIA, which one is more likely, a MIA-BRU or a MIA-ZRH?

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-08-05 07:44:32 and read 4256 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):

I've always thought they would bring back the ORD-ZRH connection as a replacement of DFW-ZRH if and when the LX-cooperation ceases to exist. As for MIA, which one is more likely, a MIA-BRU or a MIA-ZRH?

AA much rather open up the Latin America/Caribbean connections at MIA rather than the domestic connections in O'Hare. And Swiss isn't likely to be leaving Chicago anytime soon, so they wouldn't have the market to themselves.

As for what's more likely...MIA-BRU definitley, as long as Swiss is flying to MIA, and I personally don't think Swiss will be pulling out, with or without AA.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: DeltaMIA
Posted 2005-08-05 07:48:04 and read 4264 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
SN European network is much more extensive than many would believe and connecting through BRU is a stroll through the park compared to connecting at Heathrow.

I wasn't saying it isn't. I just don't see room for growth with the SN BRU hub for AA beyond what they have presently. I personally love BRU and I myself used SN to get to THF and CDG.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: HT
Posted 2005-08-05 08:02:41 and read 4244 times.

At peak-times MUC already now has insufficient runway capacity (that´s why they are planning to add a third parallel runway).

ZRH (or say: "Switzerland") is quite big when it comes to business-travel. So, pulling out flights to destinations like BOS probably would scare-away those high-yield travellers and invite-in other carriers to open up that route. That´s what happened with BSL - NYC when LX pulled out. A big pharmaceutical company in BSL is said to now run its own service to EWR, as they did no longer want to take the train to ZRH ...
Hopefully, somebody at LX (and LH) has learned from that  banghead 

Once the third runway @ MUC is operational, I do see a future for MUC and ZRH, where ZRH has intercontinental service at least to high-yield/high-capacity destinations plus *A-hubs and MUC (apart from the same market as for ZRH) caters also for the secondary routes (instead of or in addition to FRA).
-HT

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: BOSPMV
Posted 2005-08-05 09:10:40 and read 4188 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
There has also been talk about Swiss leaving LAX, JNB, and/or BOS.

I doubt, very higly, that Swiss will leave BOS, or LAX, as for MIA, thats another story.

has LH ever operated a MIA-MUC route?

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-08-05 09:21:17 and read 4185 times.

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 8):

I doubt, very higly, that Swiss will leave BOS, or LAX, as for MIA, thats another story.

MIA is a better performing station for Swiss, financially, than either BOS or LAX. Swiss has publicly said to the media that the Boston flights, along with LA, Jo'Burg, Bangkok, Cairo, and Miami, are being re-evaluated. Adding to that, their LAX flights bleed money like crazy. It still amazes me they continue to fly the route. The question marker with Miami is whether or not the flight will continue to be profitable without an AA codeshare. Check your facts before saying "thats another story".

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 8):

has LH ever operated a MIA-MUC route?

Yes, last winter and the winter before that. LTU also operates an MIA-MUC route year-round

There is a chance Lufthansa will be bringing MIA-MUC back this winter again, they haven't finalized the winter timetable, but for now they have called it a no-go, and it's for the better. With Swiss under their umbrella, they are better off leaving the market to Swiss. As I said, Miami-Southern Europe is where the money is, and Swiss better capitalizes on this. Alitalia's AZ 636/637 flight, for example, is the single best performing flight in their US network.

[Edited 2005-08-05 09:31:48]

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: Panamair
Posted 2005-08-05 11:52:42 and read 4120 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
However, Swiss and American will continue to codeshare on routes from Zurcih to Boston, Dallas, Miami, and New York City, as well as intra-Europe, Africa, Tel Aviv, and Mumbai.

This is how it will be at least through the winter timetable. I've been hearing that LX/AA would like to keep a partnership going despite Star, though it will clearly be a reduced partnership. Keyword here is like to, because it may not be possible. There are issues with this, such as some immunity issues, that might make it difficult.

Until then, AA will continue to partner with LX on flights to the East Coast.

On the FF program and miles accumulation side however, by March 2006, AAdvantage members will no longer be able to earn miles on LX transatlantic flights except for JFK-ZRH and by end of October 2006, even JFK-ZRH miles earning will be gone. This is already an indication that the whole AA-LX partnership could be 'toast' by the end of the 2006 summer schedule.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: HB-IWC
Posted 2005-08-05 12:47:53 and read 4112 times.

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 8):
I doubt, very higly, that Swiss will leave BOS, or LAX, as for MIA, thats another story.

LAX has been losing money for as long as I can remember, and it's a wonder Swiss is still going there after several rounds of restructuring which saw the loss of many a longhaul destination. I presume, the LH/LX are planning to give LAX a very last chance, banking on the Star feed.

In the days of Swissair, BOS used to be a good destination for the airline and saw the B743 and later even double daily flights. I know those results have deteriorated, but I can't say whether the line is in the red.

As for MIA, and contrary to what you suggest, this route is profitable for the airline, and has been ever since Swissair started the route on September 16, 1998. However, the cooperation with AA is a vital contributing factor to the profitability of MIA, and with this cooperation in a dead end, the future of MIA is likely in jeopardy.

I guess that the decision to abandon MIA or any other station will, given the airline's limited available resources, also depend on future network development at LX after its entry in Star. In particular, LX might prefer to operate an extra interhub transatlantic flight to complement its daily ORD operation and UA's IAD flight. Such a move might entail Swiss' return to IAD, and the airline might even be looking into DEN and SFO (although its last experience there was rather dramatic). If IAD comes online once again, expect MIA to go.

Last but not least, there is the developments in Asia. I'm sure LH is keen on utilizing Swiss' dormant rights to India and China, but in order to do so, the airline might need to give up some other destination in order to free up airframes. Nothing has been heard lately about Lufthansa's pledge of additional widebody capacity to be stationed at ZRH.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: Avek00
Posted 2005-08-05 13:32:09 and read 4066 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
I can't possibly imagine that Lufthansa would be pleased with a continuing partnership between LX and AA.

If a continuing partnership with AA can contribute significantly more to the bottom line than an alternate arrangement, then LH will be all for it.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: Goodmanr
Posted 2005-08-05 14:09:37 and read 4036 times.

Any word on JFK-GVA? I've taken that flight a bunch of times, It'll be nice to get Star miles for it!

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2005-08-05 16:42:40 and read 3946 times.

Quoting Goodmanr (Reply 13):
Any word on JFK-GVA?

I was just going to ask about GVA. How does GVA fit into all of this? I know ZRH is the more popular of the two, but how are loads/yields to GVA?

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: AviationMaster
Posted 2005-08-05 17:25:40 and read 3913 times.

I have no information whatsoever on GVA, but taking into consideration that several international organizations are based or have offices there, the loads and yields must be sufficient for SWISS to continue operating this flight, despite their downsizing in the past few years.


About MIA, how big is United Airlines there? I remember they used to have quite a sizeable operation in the past. As for AA operating the ZRH-MIA flight, I'll agree with what others have said, only if SWISS decides to drop their own MIA flight. MIA is (IMO) the best airport, when one is connecting to Mexico, Caribbean or South America.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: Commavia
Posted 2005-08-05 17:28:27 and read 3904 times.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 15):
About MIA, how big is United Airlines there? I remember they used to have quite a sizeable operation in the past.

Not now. UA is now a diminished shadow of its former self at MIA. They went from about 25 daily nonstop flights five years ago, including daily nonstop 767 or 777 departures to SCL, EZE, GRU and GIG, down to six daily flights -- two each to their U.S. hubs at ORD, DEN and IAD, all of which are going over to TED in a few months. The transcons to LAX and SFO are gone, as are all of their flights to Latin America and all of their feeder flights to and from major U.S. cities like LGA, DCA, ATL, MCO, etc. UA is pretty much a non-entity at MIA nowadays, relative to AA, and relative to their former position.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: AviationMaster
Posted 2005-08-05 18:21:38 and read 3847 times.

Thanks for the information and quick response Commavia.

I remember when I first passed thourgh MIA five years go and UA had quite an operation going on down there, but had no idea that they've downsized the operation to such a low level now.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-08-05 18:49:25 and read 3809 times.

Yes, UA's position at MIA is ntohing like it used to be.

Though thanks to free landing fees, the UA flight to SFO may be back this winter (mainline, not Ted).

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: ChrisZRH
Posted 2005-08-05 20:34:02 and read 3781 times.

Swiss would have loved to introduce the BBJ on the GVA-JFK leg together with the ZRH-EWR in co-operation with PrivatAir, but wasn't possible, and the yields & loads are quite good, so they kept / keep operating with their A330

chris

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: LACA773
Posted 2005-08-05 21:59:58 and read 3695 times.

Why is LAX so problematic for LX? I thought they did very well and when I've taken it, the flights are full and a couple of times oversold?? SFO? Not a good destination for LX??

LACA773

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: ILOVEA340
Posted 2005-08-05 22:20:09 and read 3676 times.

One of the reasons for the dropping of the codeshare with AA to LAX has to do with the fact that Swiss and Lufthansa as of the 20th of July are profitsharing/booking on eachothers flights to LAX, MIA, JFK, BOS, ORD, YYZ.
Both airlines are keeping their own pricing structures for the time being but they will allow you to book a ticket on the others website.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: BigGSFO
Posted 2005-08-05 22:25:55 and read 3671 times.

I am surprised that LAX yields are not robust. There is definitely a wealthy, high-yielding population in the LA metro area who would choose to fly non-stop (and can afford to do so) to Europe (i.e. ZRH). Also I imagine AA has quite a large FF base in SoCal, so it makes sense to me that there would be enough yield to make the LX flight work. But it appears this is not the case....

Speaking slightly off topic: are the high yields in/out of LAX mostly associated with the entertainment industry? Obviously Hollywood fills up the front cabins of NYC and LHR, but what about other destinations, such as (in this case) ZRH?

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-08-06 00:01:12 and read 3624 times.

Los Angeles is a great yielding market to the big hubs - Paris/London/Frankfurt/Amsterdam - but outside of that airlines many airlines have struggled - like Swiss, Alitalia, Iberia, and SAS - although a few have found a strong niche - such as Aer Lingus. The long stage length of the flight combined with the fact that it commands little fare premiums over the East Coast makes it difficult to operate profitably for some smaller airlines. Swiss' LAX flights go out full, but the yield is horrendous, and SFO-ZRH performed even worse. And when you the block time of LAX-ZRH is roughly the same as flying ZRH-PVG, why not send the aircraft to Shanghai instead? The oppurtunity costs hurt here too.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: Semsem
Posted 2005-08-06 05:53:48 and read 3508 times.

The GVA to JFK LX flight is apparently profitable. Since 1 year CO started this service also to EWR. I have taken both on this route and they were always full. It seems there is enough traffic for both carriers. In the past TWA and Delta dropped the route.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: LH423
Posted 2005-08-11 05:25:14 and read 3304 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
Swiss has publicly said to the media that the Boston flights, along with LA, Jo'Burg, Bangkok, Cairo, and Miami, are being re-evaluated.

Swiss always publicly announces that they're evaluating routes and sometimes even announces reductions in frequency. At least in the case of Boston, rarely do they come to fruition, though Montréal has been reduced in the past.

We'll see. Though, I doubt BOS is going anywhere. If anything a flight will get dropped in the Winter, again, that's yet to happen despite public re-evaluations.

LH423

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: Aisak
Posted 2005-08-11 17:40:12 and read 3213 times.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
As for AA, the end of the LX-relationship might lead to a reinforced cooperation with SN and reliance on its extensive European network. AA might very well strengthen its position at BRU with the addition of a MIA/BOS/DFW link

I'm new here at a.net so forgive my newbie mistakes. I've been doing some homework here...

Regarding to ZRH
-AA operates daily JFK and DFW.
-SWISS operates for AA daily JFK and ORD plus LAX, BOS and MIA with less frequency on the USA side.
-SWISS codeshares for AA 32 other destinations from ZRH

Regarding to BRU
-AA operates daily JFK and ORD
-SN Brussels codeshares for AA 28 destinations from BRU

Swiss operations will continue for sure but with US/UA for USA feeding. If swiss were to enter Star, i would see some future in some parts of the AA/LX agreement, but swiss is being eaten by Lufthansa instead, so it'll end sooner than later
SN seems to lean long haul on other partners and it's not likely to start operations to North America. Bearing this in mind, i can't see the point for more SN operations in codeshare with AA unless AA feeds BRU with more traffic.
AA has already good partnerships in Europe to cover all key cities with Iberia, BA, Finnair, Aer Lingus, SN and train companies in France and Germany and one hub more to come: Budapest from Malev. There's only one city pair covered between Hungary and the USA: BUD-JFK operated by malev. Even malev seems to lack of agreements with any oneworld member but Finnair so if BUD is becoming a new OW hub, new routes are to be added from other partners including AA.

USA-ZRH must have a strong o&d traffic from-to DFW and JFK as connecting possibilites are almost nule beyond ZRH without SWISS. Just BA for UK, IB for Spain, SN for Belgium, AY for Finland and EI for Ireland. So it's easier for AA to keep ZRH/GVA and all other LX-AA destinations covered with any of the 5 airlines above and new ones coming from malev.

Topic: RE: AA/LX End LAX/ORD Codeshare; Keep JFK/MIA/BOS
Username: Travelin man
Posted 2005-08-11 17:47:51 and read 3163 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
MIA is a better performing station for Swiss, financially, than either BOS or LAX. Swiss has publicly said to the media that the Boston flights, along with LA, Jo'Burg, Bangkok, Cairo, and Miami, are being re-evaluated. Adding to that, their LAX flights bleed money like crazy.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 11):
LAX has been losing money for as long as I can remember, and it's a wonder Swiss is still going there after several rounds of restructuring which saw the loss of many a longhaul destination. I presume, the LH/LX are planning to give LAX a very last chance, banking on the Star feed.

I would ask how do you guys know about Swiss' yields on the LAX route? I work in airline contract management for a very large company here in Southern California, and we have a contract with Swiss. I have never heard anything from either the airline nor anybody else regarding the supposedly "horrid" yields from LAX. In addition, there are several companies whose US HQs are here in SoCal (Nestle being one of them), that provides LX a very big feed.

I'm not challenging it necessarily, but I am curious as to how you know this information. Obviously, as a manager of the contract, I am very interested in this subject.


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