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Topic: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Squirrel83
Posted 2005-08-21 13:27:48 and read 12744 times.

Some of this is old news but at the same time there is new information . .

Qatar Airways intends to sign deals by September worth 15.6 billion U.S. dollars for 80 Airbus and Boeing wide-body jets, its chief executive said recently. Paris Air Show that it planned to buy a mix of 60 Airbus A350-800 and A350-900 planes and 20 Boeing 777-200LR and 777-300ER aircraft. Qatar, the youngest national carrier in the Gulf Arab region, is due to take delivery of the A350s between 2010 and 2015, while the Boeing planes should arrive between 2007 and 2010.

http://www.maldivesinfo.gov.mv/news.php?newsid=8823

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Flydubai
Posted 2005-08-21 13:57:40 and read 12663 times.

Looks like a 'head to head' battle with EK.

Hamzah

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: B742
Posted 2005-08-21 14:00:27 and read 12655 times.

WOW, that's a huge order! Must have a hell of a huge expansion plan!

I think QR is the new EKYeah sure

Is it me, or is 80 new widebodys a hell of lot for such a small airline and country?

I wonder where they plan to use the A350's/777's to?

Will there future fleet consist of just A350's, A380's and 777's?

The CEO of the airline said that QR are not to take any more singlebody a/c from now on, just widebodies!

Rob!  Smile

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: B742
Posted 2005-08-21 14:05:21 and read 12637 times.

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
Qatar, the youngest national carrier in the Gulf Arab region,

I thought this was EY???

Rob!

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Flydubai
Posted 2005-08-21 14:23:15 and read 12582 times.

Quoting B742 (Reply 3):
I thought this was EY???

QR was re-launched in 1997. It is now one of the world’s fastest growing airlines along with EK.
EK was launched in 1985

Hamzah

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: HMUcfm56
Posted 2005-08-21 14:37:22 and read 12532 times.

Quoting Flydubai (Reply 4):

Quoting B742 (Reply 3):
I thought this was EY???

QR was re-launched in 1997. It is now one of the world’s fastest growing airlines along with EK.
EK was launched in 1985

Hamzah

But EY was launched in 2003

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Yyz717
Posted 2005-08-21 15:03:23 and read 12458 times.

This is ridiculous. The fleet expansion plans of Qatar, EK and Etihad simply defy logic.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2005-08-21 15:36:01 and read 12380 times.

Experts can say all they want, this is a bubble that just has to burst sometime within the next 10 years. Sure, Dubai attracts lots of tourists and is growing in global importance which is good for Emirates, but what do Qatar and Abu Dhabi offer? Also, seeing as how EK and other are heavily relying on connecting pax, primarily from India, and many Indian Carriers now plan to launch their own longhauls which would make connections in the Emirates obsolete, I seriously doubt all three airlines will be able to continue on like this.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: FlySSC
Posted 2005-08-21 15:41:01 and read 12349 times.

Emir's new game : " I am more powerful because I have more planes than you have  tongue "

 sarcastic 

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: PHXinterrupted
Posted 2005-08-21 16:44:50 and read 12223 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
Experts can say all they want, this is a bubble that just has to burst sometime within the next 10 years. Sure, Dubai attracts lots of tourists and is growing in global importance which is good for Emirates, but what do Qatar and Abu Dhabi offer? Also, seeing as how EK and other are heavily relying on connecting pax, primarily from India, and many Indian Carriers now plan to launch their own longhauls which would make connections in the Emirates obsolete, I seriously doubt all three airlines will be able to continue on like this.

I agree.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Behramjee
Posted 2005-08-21 17:23:02 and read 12096 times.

This is very old news and unfortunately still the break up of the B 777 and the A 350 order is not mentioned!!!  Sad

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Wingman
Posted 2005-08-21 18:31:07 and read 11931 times.

Well, you've got to like the Boeing order a little better from a Risk standpoint. Their jets may actually get delivered and paid for before the bubble explodes. I just don't see how 3-4 tiny little countries with airports just miles apart will somehow provide the sustainable growth required to fill 200+ large widebodies on a daily basis. In the words of Alan Greenspan..."[The Emirs] are suffering from irrational exuberance".

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Travellin'man
Posted 2005-08-21 19:31:09 and read 11834 times.

While I agree that so much growth in such a small area seems risky, the size of the Emirates is not necessarily as much of a factor as their location, which in turn is less important as a destination than as a through-point. They are well positioned along a well travelled corridor between Australia, Southeast and South Asia, the Middle East and Europe; with ultra long range jets you can also now add the US into that mix. As African traffic takes off, they are there for that too. So many people may choose to fly them to get somewhere else besides Dubai.

As people have remarked here before, just look at Singapore Airlines, at how globally significant they are as an airline compared to how small they are as a country.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-21 19:48:24 and read 11808 times.

Quoting B742 (Reply 2):
Will there future fleet consist of just A350's, A380's and 777's?

No, they won't get rid of their narrow bodies anytime soon.

Quoting B742 (Reply 2):
The CEO of the airline said that QR are not to take any more singlebody a/c from now on, just widebodies!

Where and when did he say that?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 6):
This is ridiculous. The fleet expansion plans of Qatar, EK and Etihad simply defy logic.

Apparently not, regarding their loads and expanding networks.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
but what do Qatar and Abu Dhabi offer?

Connections and growing tourist attractions.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
Also, seeing as how EK and other are heavily relying on connecting pax, primarily from India, and many Indian Carriers now plan to launch their own longhauls which would make connections in the Emirates obsolete, I seriously doubt all three airlines will be able to continue on like this.

Wrong, they are not primarily dependant on traffic from and to India. Check out their network.
Their expansion into secondary markets is one future key strategy. They connect city pairs such as Glasgow to Peshawar or Birmingham to Perth with only one convenient stop - and that's just two examples.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 11):
I just don't see how 3-4 tiny little countries with airports just miles apart will somehow provide the sustainable growth required to fill 200+ large widebodies on a daily basis. In the words of Alan Greenspan..."[The Emirs] are suffering from irrational exuberance".

I don't think the Emirs act irrationally. You can bet they only laugh at anyone who underestimates them in arrogant Western attitude...


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Beauing
Posted 2005-08-21 19:53:24 and read 11755 times.

Much of this growth will come at the expense of the large European legacy carriers such as BA, LH, and AF. Their lucrative Asian routes will get hammered by this competition.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-21 20:11:50 and read 11702 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 13):
I don't think the Emirs act irrationally. You can bet they only laugh at anyone who underestimates them in arrogant Western attitude...

Udo,

With all due respect but I think a lot of people just don't want to see the inevitable truth just because it means that a lot of the projected growth both for A and B is based on an airbubble (more so for A than B).
If you go to Dubhai or some of the other Emirates you just have to realize that although growth is certainly a possibility it will be nowhere as big as they (emirs) will like it to be.
That is also exactly the core of the problem; the growth of these airlines is usually the vision of 1 or a couple of the ruling Emirs and as soon as they lose interest or somebody else comes to power with a different vision these trends will abruptly stop.
Just look at Dubhai (Palm islands, 'the world-project",new Amsterdam-like innercity, highest building in the world, longest planned bridge (between UAE and Qatar),... you can't help but wonder and ask yourself...WHY? and who is going to use all this, what will happen if the worlds rich and famous (their target clients) loose interest and they will because that is what they are known for, short attention span.
Also how about political stability in the region, always a very big factor in economic development.

Coming back to the orders, I think it would be a good thing if A and B make contingency plans, just in case, and don't loose too much connection with their other clients.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: San747
Posted 2005-08-21 20:20:17 and read 11658 times.

The A350s presumably are to replace the A330s, right? I dunno if it's just me (and before I say this I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an Airbus or Boeing man, I am a fan of both.), but it seems like the A350 is like a knee-jerk reaction by Airbus to come up with a quick competitor to the 787. Its supposed to replace the A330 as well, but the A330, in my opinion, doesn't need to be updated or replaced. It's not like a 747 Classic or something thats outdated by 15-20 years. I can see airlines flying A330s well into the 2020s. It doesn't seem like its going to sell too well compared to the 787 anyway...

But thats just how I see it...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-21 20:40:26 and read 11605 times.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 15):
With all due respect but I think a lot of people just don't want to see the inevitable truth just because it means that a lot of the projected growth both for A and B is based on an airbubble (more so for A than B).

Is it the inevitable truth? I don't think so, it simply depends on your point of view. There's always a chance a plan can go wrong but it would be very stupid to underestimate the Emirs' projects and rely on a chance of "bubble bursting".

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 15):
If you go to Dubhai or some of the other Emirates you just have to realize that although growth is certainly a possibility it will be nowhere as big as they (emirs) will like it to be.

No? Then I recommend to read some books or essays about the development of Dubai. It seems they have already achieved more than some of them had ever dreamed of.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 15):
That is also exactly the core of the problem; the growth of these airlines is usually the vision of 1 or a couple of the ruling Emirs and as soon as they lose interest or somebody else comes to power with a different vision these trends will abruptly stop.

Totally wrong in the case of Dubai. Continuity is an important part of their strategy. These people are rich but they are also very wise and well educated. You shouldn't compare them to some spoilt Saudi princes. And I don't think there is major disagreement with the Emir's plans in Dubai.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 15):
Just look at Dubhai (Palm islands, 'the world-project",new Amsterdam-like innercity, highest building in the world, longest planned bridge (between UAE and Qatar),... you can't help but wonder and ask yourself...WHY?

Why? Have you ever asked McDonald's why they open restaurants in any podunk? The answer is: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 15):
and who is going to use all this, what will happen if the worlds rich and famous (their target clients) loose interest and they will because that is what they are known for, short attention span.

They only lose interest if anything better occurs on the horizon. But the chances any other country or region will "outperform" Dubai anytime soon are not really good to say it diplomatically...

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 15):
Also how about political stability in the region, always a very big factor in economic development.

The UAE, Qatar or Oman are some of the most stabile countries in the Middle East, so I don't see any serious problems. You need dissatisfaction of the people for political instability and you won't find that there.

Quoting San747 (Reply 16):
but it seems like the A350 is like a knee-jerk reaction by Airbus to come up with a quick competitor to the 787.

It seemed to be in the beginning, but Airbus has been working hard to present a tough competitor. They haven't finished yet...


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: AirRyan
Posted 2005-08-21 20:49:21 and read 11558 times.

It baffles me how a country the size of Belgium can warrant let alone afford 80 widebody commercial airliners. The next time I hear one of Osama bin Buttwipin's cowards accuse the "West" of not paying for "their" oil I'm going to pop a Camel!

Between this order and the one recently for 45 A380s by Emirates, is it not safe to say that at least at this point in time the market for Persian Gulf tourism is a wee bit flooded?   

I'd like see some market analysis from different perspectives - how many more widebodies can it possibly support?

[Edited 2005-08-21 20:50:17]

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-21 20:58:48 and read 11523 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
It baffles me how a country the size of Belgium can warrant let alone afford 80 widebody commercial airliners.

Ever checked how tiny Singapore is in comparison? And that very country is indeed home to the world's largest B777 operator...  hot 

How they can afford to buy the aircraft? Hm, they export the stuff which flows out of every gas stations...  Wink

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
The next time I hear one of Osama bin Buttwipin's cowards accuse the "West" of not paying for "their" oil I'm going to pop a Camel!

Well, it was just a matter of time until someone throws in "Osama". Great.  Yeah sure

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
Between this order and the one recently for 45 A380s by Emirates, is it not safe to say that at least at this point in time the market for Persian Gulf tourism is a wee bit flooded?

No.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Karan69
Posted 2005-08-21 21:01:28 and read 11515 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
Between this order and the one recently for 45 A380s by Emirates, is it not safe to say that at least at this point in time the market for Persian Gulf tourism is a wee bit floode

By the time Qatar and EK are done recieving each and every new aircraft it will be sometime around 2015--10 years from now,
so no point in looking at the market being flooded now, but only how to improve upon on it and maintain or increase tourisim in their respective countries/cities.

and if you read the various posts on the thread , they are well on the right track by developing and creating new world class projects day in and day out.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: 707lvr
Posted 2005-08-21 21:02:49 and read 11508 times.

This is good news for aviation all around. Certainly the legacy/state carriers of Europe and Asia will be liberal with nth freedom rights and welcome the additional resources to help carry their citizens about. Furthermore, the emergence of the Gulf states as the world's premiere holiday and shopping destination will be a breath of fresh air for all the former travelers to places like Las Vegas and London. Who wants all that taxed retail and usury anyway, and who really needs boobies, gambling, whores and booze? Sand and really good air-conditioning could be the wave of the future.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-21 21:16:44 and read 11466 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 17):
Is it the inevitable truth? I don't think so, it simply depends on your point of view. There's always a chance a plan can go wrong but it would be very stupid to underestimate the Emirs' projects and rely on a chance of "bubble bursting".

I guess you are right in saying that nothing is inevitable but you shouldn't overestimate them either.

Quoting Udo (Reply 17):
No? Then I recommend to read some books or essays about the development of Dubai. It seems they have already achieved more than some of them had ever dreamed of.

Well I am well enough informed that, as I said ,there is indeed potential for growth, but I also know from first hand experience that they are playing some high risk games from time to time.

Quoting Udo (Reply 17):
Totally wrong in the case of Dubai. Continuity is an important part of their strategy. These people are rich but they are also very wise and well educated. You shouldn't compare them to some spoilt Saudi princes

Uh, continuity is a part in all economic formula's (even those that do not work) but they certainly are not ALL wise and well educated.
That is a problem in country's that have a class (a family) of people that continuously take the end decisions, their position is nearly never based on merit but on relationships but they still can make the policy's.

A good example is the way their armed forces often work: If you talk to military "advisors" stationed in these country's they will almost always say that even when they have the best equipment they pretty much suck in military tasks, it's nothing more than a playing club for the princes.

It says a lot about the political (and economical) structure of these country's.

Quoting Udo (Reply 17):
Why? Have you ever asked McDonald's why they open restaurants in any podunk? The answer is: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yes but every McD's is not automatically a success, some of them fail as well you know.

Quoting Udo (Reply 17):
They only lose interest if anything better occurs on the horizon. But the chances any other country or region will "outperform" Dubai anytime soon are not really good to say it diplomatically...

Same was said about a lot of the Caribbean places not to long ago and the schwung certainly went out of those also.

You know what a new trend will be :Cape Verde (spelling?) ,they are starting to plan for the new "place to be" for the rich and the famous as we speak and after that, who knows?

Quoting Udo (Reply 17):
The UAE, Qatar or Oman are some of the most stabile countries in the Middle East

It's not UAE ,QATAR or Oman you should be worried about but some of their close neighbors that could pose a problem and that is just as bad.

Quoting Udo (Reply 17):
It seemed to be in the beginning, but Airbus has been working hard to present a tough competitor. They haven't finished yet...

I agree.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: AirRyan
Posted 2005-08-21 21:19:42 and read 11454 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 19):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
The next time I hear one of Osama bin Buttwipin's cowards accuse the "West" of not paying for "their" oil I'm going to pop a Camel!

Well, it was just a matter of time until someone throws in "Osama". Great.

Its just you Udo who seems to have a problem fighting terrorists so I can assure you that every time I speak of anything that has to do with oil I'll throw in the standard "Damn the terrorist" bites. It's one thing if you don't want to help fight the war on terror but then have the audacity to criticise those that do, stop being such a self-righteous coward. The "terrorists" have forever throughly screwed up the commerical aviation industry we all on this thread are so adamently interested in you seem to have a problem when I vent steam at the terrorists who not only severely hurt our industry but would just as well cut our heads off and broadcast them across Al Jazeer - what's your angle?

Quoting Udo (Reply 19):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
Between this order and the one recently for 45 A380s by Emirates, is it not safe to say that at least at this point in time the market for Persian Gulf tourism is a wee bit flooded?

No.

Oh sure, I'll just take your word on that based upon your credibility. Care to offer any tangible analysis with your elaborate explanations?

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 20):
so no point in looking at the market being flooded now, but only how to improve upon on it and maintain or increase tourisim in their respective countries/cities.

and if you read the various posts on the thread , they are well on the right track by developing and creating new world class projects day in and day out.

But is this based upon an expected rise in population of the Persian Gulf as well or are these expected estimates based off sole business analysis of increased tourist revenues? Somehow I don't see the region inside these countries at least growing too much larger and I still am waiting to see what sorts of business outside of tourism the UAE and Qatar are proposing. Orlando's KMCO is a big aiport reflective of it's tourism but even they don't qutie have the traffic that these current projections have going into the Persian Gulf ten years from now.

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 21):
This is good news for aviation all around.

I agree, I love to see the Boeing widebody orders but in the longrun they aren't worth anything if they never manifest or are shortly sold back to Boeing because they mis-calculated their projections. I'm looking but I'm not finding too many other businesses in the region other than in oil or tourism.  scratchchin 

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-21 21:35:28 and read 11416 times.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 22):
I guess you are right in saying that nothing is inevitable but you shouldn't overestimate them either.

That won't happen.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 22):
Uh, continuity is a part in all economic formula's (even those that do not work) but they certainly are not ALL wise and well educated.

The decision makers certainly are.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 22):
That is a problem in country's that have a class (a family) of people that continuously take the end decisions, their position is nearly never based on merit but on relationships but they still can make the policy's.

Sure, they don't have democratic structures, but does that automatically mean anything bad for the country's economic development? It hasn't so far.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 22):
A good example is the way their armed forces often work: If you talk to military "advisors" stationed in these country's they will almost always say that even when they have the best equipment they pretty much suck in military tasks, it's nothing more than a playing club for the princes.

It says a lot about the political (and economical) structure of these country's.

I can't comment on their military but the economic development has been a total success.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 22):
Yes but every McD's is not automatically a success, some of them fail as well you know.

Sure, but the aim is always $$$.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 22):
Same was said about a lot of the Caribbean places not to long ago and the schwung certainly went out of those also.

You know what a new trend will be :Cape Verde (spelling?) ,they are starting to plan for the new "place to be" for the rich and the famous as we speak and after that, who knows?

The Caribbean places lacked exactly of that continuity I mentioned earlier. And the Cape Verde Islands? I doubt they would be able to compete seriously. They don't have the cash to build up an infrastructure comparable to Dubai. And air links are not really encouraging.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 22):
It's not UAE ,QATAR or Oman you should be worried about but some of their close neighbors that could pose a problem and that is just as bad.

The big bang in Saudi-Arabia? If anything serious happens in Saudi-Arabia then the whole world would find itself in a dangerous oil crisis and economic downturn very soon. Or do you mean Iran? I don't think even the worst mullahs would plan invasions in neigboring countries.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: AirRyan
Posted 2005-08-21 21:48:35 and read 11372 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
If anything serious happens in Saudi-Arabia then the whole world would find itself in a dangerous oil crisis and economic downturn very soon

Part of the reason for such a rampant displeasure of the West (yes, Osama was from Saudi Arabia) is that only the Royal House of Saud gets the revenues from the oil. Arabia would be much better off if the oil revenues were distributed for all of the Arabian society to benefit from, and not just the "Royal" family.

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
Or do you mean Iran? I don't think even the worst mullahs would plan invasions in neigboring countries.

Same thing there - the people of Iran want a change in government but thus far have not been able to get it. The Iranian people want nothing more than to dictate and represent themselves in the world market and having former terrorists as their leaders is just not getting it done.

Oh, and buy more 777 and A380's - it does an economy good!  Smile

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-21 22:13:17 and read 11203 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
Its just you Udo who seems to have a problem fighting terrorists so I can assure you that every time I speak of anything that has to do with oil I'll throw in the standard "Damn the terrorist" bites.

What a crappy and ridiculous statement. Where have I ever said I have a problem with fighting terrorism? Don't put things in my mouth.  talktothehand 

And where's the relation between oil and terrorists? Are the UAE a country of terrorists just because they export a lot of it? Does Osama own and sell oil?
By throwing in "standard bites" as you call it you just fool yourself on that board.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
It's one thing if you don't want to help fight the war on terror but then have the audacity to criticise those that do, stop being such a self-righteous coward.

Get over it. I'm tired of hearing that trash. Check out some threads in non-av and you will soon find out what's my opinion on the (real) war of terror.

Btw, calling me names just shows your inability to discuss in a civilized manner. I could press the "suggest deletion" button for that insult, but I won't. Because I find it amusing how you lose credibility and respect on that forum with your uneducated behavior...

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
The "terrorists" have forever throughly screwed up the commerical aviation industry we all on this thread are so adamently interested in

Forever? Wow, Osama would be happy hearing how desperate you sound...  covereyes 

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
you seem to have a problem when I vent steam at the terrorists who not only severely hurt our industry but would just as well cut our heads off and broadcast them across Al Jazeer - what's your angle?

My angle is this discussion shouldn't be about terrorists but about Gulf carriers. You screwed the thread up by going off-topic. Congrats for that.  thumbsup 

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
Oh sure, I'll just take your word on that based upon your credibility. Care to offer any tangible analysis with your elaborate explanations?

No. First of all, re-read this thread. Second, use the search option and you'll find endless topics where I talked about the Gulf carriers' future prospects.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
Somehow I don't see the region inside these countries at least growing too much larger and I still am waiting to see what sorts of business outside of tourism the UAE and Qatar are proposing.



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
I'm looking but I'm not finding too many other businesses in the region other than in oil or tourism.

http://www.ameinfo.com/

http://www.datadubai.com/

http://www.dubainews.com/

http://www.imf.org/external/country/ARE/

http://www.tbsjournal.com/Archives/Fall01/dubai.html

http://www.zawya.com/


I hope you do some reading so that you finally realize what's going on.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-21 22:19:25 and read 11154 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
The decision makers certainly are.

I am very curious now as how you may know this?

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
Sure, they don't have democratic structures, but does that automatically mean anything bad for the country's economic development? It hasn't so far.

It has indeed nothing to do with democracy (just look at Singapore) but it has all the more to do with how you place people in charge of economic projects.
Who is the boss and why is he the boss, is it because he is a prince or 1 of its relatives or is it because he was the top of the class?
This still is a problem throughout the Arabian peninsula but it isn't so much in Singapore.

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
I can't comment on their military but the economic development has been a total success

Largerly still because of fossil fuel mining (between 30 and 40% of the GDP up until now) and the way prices are going now (oil at ++60$/barrel) they are certainly cashing in.
Remains to be proven that what they are doing now is going to pay of in the long run.

You see that's why you can't compare Singapore with UAE,QATAR,OMAN,Q8,...
Singapore is rich because it benefited from its strategic location and they saw that the best way to set the future is to invest in its people (education, training, skilled jobs,research,...) and all that leads to the fact that now they have a knowledge based, industrial based,transport based ,service based,... and so on multi-faceted economy that can deal with a crisis in one of its pillars.
The Arabian country's however have only a realistic income from 2 or at best3
pillars (oil&gas/tourism/transport) and spend the bulk off their money on nonsensical megalomaniac things.
You don't see the worlds biggest airport or tallest building or any other kind of prestige project in Singapore ,only when there is a use for it you will see these things.
That's why Singapore is in the top of the class when you look at education levels and the Arab country's are no model students.
It's all about the law of the big numbers: If you have a lot of people to choose from with good training and education and you place them on the right spots you are more likely to get a good result.
If you however always fish from a small pond then chances are small you'll catch a good big fish.

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
The Caribbean places lacked exactly of that continuity I mentioned earlier. And the Cape Verde Islands? I doubt they would be able to compete seriously. They don't have the cash to build up an infrastructure comparable to Dubai. And air links are not really encouraging

You shouldn't take my comment about Cape Verde literally, I just took it as a real example to show that the rich community always finds something new to do.

Quoting Udo (Reply 24):
The big bang in Saudi-Arabia? If anything serious happens in Saudi-Arabia then the whole world would find itself in a dangerous oil crisis and economic downturn very soon. Or do you mean Iran? I don't think even the worst mullahs would plan invasions in neigboring countries

You don't need a fullscale war to have political instability.
The region IS one of the or maybe even the most unstable place in the world.



PS
Lets just hope they have an enlightened ruler long enough to make the best of it and choose the right pad (Like they had in Singapore) but up until now it doesn't look very promising.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-21 22:20:38 and read 11134 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
Part of the reason for such a rampant displeasure of the West (yes, Osama was from Saudi Arabia) is that only the Royal House of Saud gets the revenues from the oil.

I can only agree with that. I'm just wondering why such an undemocratic country is one of the US' best allies...let me guess...  Wink

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
Arabia would be much better off if the oil revenues were distributed for all of the Arabian society to benefit from, and not just the "Royal" family.

"Arabia"? Who exactly? Don't mix up Saudi-Arabia with the UAE or Qatar. The societies in the UAE and Qatar do benefit from the oil revenues, in contrast to the majority of Saudis.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
Same thing there - the people of Iran want a change in government but thus far have not been able to get it.

So what? Invasion? They have to do it themselves.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
The Iranian people want nothing more than to dictate and represent themselves in the world market and having former terrorists as their leaders is just not getting it done.

Former terrorists? Ah, the "I recognized him"-evidence, I see...  Yeah sure

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
Oh, and buy more 777 and A380's - it does an economy good!

And the point of that comment is...?  idea 


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-21 22:29:00 and read 11050 times.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 27):
Who is the boss and why is he the boss, is it because he is a prince or 1 of its relatives or is it because he was the top of the class?
This still is a problem throughout the Arabian peninsula but it isn't so much in Singapore.

As I said earlier, the structures in the UAE haven't hurt the business success yet...

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 27):
You see that's why you can't compare Singapore with UAE,QATAR,OMAN,Q8,...

Did I?

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 27):
Singapore is rich because it benefited from its strategic location and they saw that the best way to set the future is to invest in its people (education, training, skilled jobs,research,...) and all that leads to the fact that now they have a knowledge based, industrial based,transport based ,service based,... and so on multi-faceted economy that can deal with a crisis in one of its pillars.

Sounds like a description of what has been happening in Dubai for many years...

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 27):
The Arabian country's however have only a realistic income from 2 or at best3
pillars (oil&gas/tourism/transport) and spend the bulk off their money on nonsensical megalomaniac things.
You don't see the worlds biggest airport or tallest building or any other kind of prestige project in Singapore ,only when there is a use for it you will see these things.

Well, I can only kindly ask you to have a look at the links I provided for AirRyan. You can find very interesting facts about business in the UAE.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 27):
The region IS one of the or maybe even the most unstable place in the world.

But the major terror attacks have happened elsewhere...not a single one in the UAE yet. It depends on what you consider as "the region".

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 27):
Lets just hope they have an enlightened ruler long enough to make the best of it and choose the right pad (Like they had in Singapore) but up until now it doesn't look very promising.

Not promising? Could you please elaborate?


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Soylentgreen
Posted 2005-08-21 22:38:12 and read 10963 times.

Mybe if gas hits $4 a gallon they'll buy 120 planes. Thanks George. Keep up the good work.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-21 23:01:40 and read 10741 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
As I said earlier, the structures in the UAE haven't hurt the business success yet...

There is no real business succes apart from oil and gas

quote from one of your sites:
Buoyed by growing industrial investment, the manufacturing sector accounts for 15.1 per cent of the UAE's GDP, the second largest contributor after the mining (crude oil and natural gas) sector.
They make it as if 15.1% is much but it really isn't.

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Did I?

No, but I did as a point of reference (similar in population and expectations).

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Sounds like a description of what has been happening in Dubai for many years...

They mainly invest in nonsensical infrastructure iso people resources, just check the links you posted yourself.

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Well, I can only kindly ask you to have a look at the links I provided for AirRyan. You can find very interesting facts about business in the UAE.

I did and I learned little new things.
I even did better and up until 2004 I worked on a very regular basis with these country's and it only convinced me more that maybe they where not always going in the right direction.

Just a test and name 3 brands of valuable consumer goods, services or other products that originate from that region.
Now try the same for Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and other young industrialized capitalist country's.

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
But the major terror attacks have happened elsewhere...not a single one in the UAE yet. It depends on what you consider as "the region".

Lets not make it too big and just take the Arabian peninsula.
You'll have to admit that "the region" is more than the area between your own border.

Quoting Udo (Reply 29):
Not promising? Could you please elaborate?

You want more proof?
Visit some of the Emirates and don't visit the architectural marvels but go and look at the Harbor, industrial estates, check out how many top brands actually produce goods or have their mainHQ over there.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Glideslope
Posted 2005-08-21 23:03:13 and read 10724 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 13):
I don't think the Emirs act irrationally. You can bet they only laugh at anyone who underestimates them in arrogant Western attitude..

More of a reality based Western Attitude. The bases for these airlines is akin to being on top of an active volcano. It would take very little to destabilize the entire region. By design, or accident. The less Boeing deals with these operators the better. Nice small orders with quick payment and delivery. Nothing more.  Smile

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-21 23:04:05 and read 10715 times.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 30):
Mybe if gas hits $4 a gallon they'll buy 120 planes. Thanks George. Keep up the good work

Try 1.45€ per liter over here (+/-6.2$USgallon).

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Lhrmaccoll
Posted 2005-08-21 23:06:42 and read 10687 times.

Hold on a sec here. Emirates, Qatar, and all the other 'nutters' aren't just sitting on a business plan to the UAE. Emirates have a suprising number of services out of Heathrow to Australasia, with a stop in Dubai or wherever, where business is very good, and profitable. They charge high, get 80-100% load factor, and make a profit, all they are doing here is maximising the potential profit that they can get here. What i see next is what AI have done, with a LHR-JFK, and Chicago, after a flight from the UAE. Thats the ticket.
Alex

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2005-08-21 23:12:07 and read 10633 times.

If this article is accurate, the numbers have been firmed up:

(quote) its chief executive said recently. [Sic] Paris Air Show that it planned to buy a mix of 60 Airbus A350-800 and A350-900 planes and 20 Boeing 777-200LR and 777-300ER aircraft.(unquote)

During the airshow I believe the language used was "up to 60 A350's" and "at least 20 777's"....

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Lhrmaccoll
Posted 2005-08-21 23:16:40 and read 10591 times.

Again, obviously they are expanding their long haul fleet, and reworking their strategy. With all that oil money, they can't go wrong right now, but once its gone, they are going to hit the ground, and be woken up loudly, and unpleasently
Alex

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-21 23:17:23 and read 10588 times.

The only way I see them turning a profit on these large aircraft purchasing deals is when they decide to go in business as a leasing company and speculate on the world wide need for a large portion of these widebody's.

Australasia maybe a good market but 200 widebody's more is just not realistic considering there are also a lot of other viable alternatives.
Let's see Cairo, Beirut, Bangkok,Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta,Indian city's,whatever more they also want there portion of the cake and I am not taking into account the carriers based in Europe's main ports and Australasia.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Neverest
Posted 2005-08-21 23:27:05 and read 10524 times.

Among other things Emirates benefits from cheap third world labor. They have advantage of low or no taxes. They can very well compete with Western carriers on cost and service level, as they do not have the overheads amd burden other countries have to provide. Add to this the fuel cost advantage of refueling in the Middle East. As I see it there will be fierce competition beween the Emirate carriers and the Western carriers and the latter will most likely lose their market share. Also a point to mention, Dubai and other Gulf people have been trading internationally for thousands of years, they are shrewd businessmen and deserve not to be underestimated.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: AirRyan
Posted 2005-08-21 23:30:11 and read 10483 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 28):
"Arabia"? Who exactly? Don't mix up Saudi-Arabia with the UAE or Qatar. The societies in the UAE and Qatar do benefit from the oil revenues, in contrast to the majority of Saudis.

I see your point. I like to discount the "Royal" famil of "Saudi" Arabia and refer to boundaries of Saudi Arabia as just Arabia. I think Pimp Saud messed up that whole land when he helped start the "Royal" family by leaving out the majority of the people, IMO.

Quoting Udo (Reply 28):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
Same thing there - the people of Iran want a change in government but thus far have not been able to get it.

So what? Invasion? They have to do it themselves.

No, not even Bush 43 is that trigger-happy! All they need is support - some political and some financial.

Quoting Udo (Reply 28):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
Oh, and buy more 777 and A380's - it does an economy good!

And the point of that comment is...?

I don't know, to try and keep the aviation aspect of discussion relevant!

Quoting Udo (Reply 26):
What a crappy and ridiculous statement. Where have I ever said I have a problem with fighting terrorism? Don't put things in my mouth.

Than stop whininig about me chastizing the terrorists when they have singlehandidly negatively adversed the commerical aviation industry as well as the price of oil so much!

Quoting Udo (Reply 26):
And where's the relation between oil and terrorists?

That's one of single motivating aspects of the Islamic-fundamentalists! They want the West out of their land but it is through their dependance on oil that is the whole reason they are there in the first place! I believe it was Osama Bin Laden's lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahri who just said in his last video that the West will be punished for "not paying for their oil." Check out the price of oil going up specifically just because of the latest attack on US warships in Jordan:

Oil tops $65 on terror fears
http://www.finance24.com/articles/ma...arkets&ArticleID=1518-1784_1757406

Quoting Udo (Reply 26):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
The "terrorists" have forever throughly screwed up the commerical aviation industry we all on this thread are so adamently interested in

Forever? Wow, Osama would be happy hearing how desperate you sound...



Quoting Udo (Reply 26):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
It's one thing if you don't want to help fight the war on terror but then have the audacity to criticise those that do, stop being such a self-righteous coward.

Get over it. I'm tired of hearing that trash. Check out some threads in non-av and you will soon find out what's my opinion on the (real) war of terror.

Btw, calling me names just shows your inability to discuss in a civilized manner

No, those are just adjectives to descrbe your myopic pacifist ideologies that stems from our last thread on the subject.

Quoting Udo (Reply 26):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
you seem to have a problem when I vent steam at the terrorists who not only severely hurt our industry but would just as well cut our heads off and broadcast them across Al Jazeer - what's your angle?

My angle is this discussion shouldn't be about terrorists but about Gulf carriers. You screwed the thread up by going off-topic. Congrats for that.

Stop being so anal - if your going to talk about the current status and projection of the economics of the Persian Gulf don't blame me for talking about oil and the terrorists.

Quoting Udo (Reply 28):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):
The Iranian people want nothing more than to dictate and represent themselves in the world market and having former terrorists as their leaders is just not getting it done.

Former terrorists? Ah, the "I recognized him"-evidence, I see...

Regardless as to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's past and whatever perspective you may regard him in, considering that the Shah Ayatollah Khomeini wrote the book on terrorism and is the one really calling the shots in Iran, I stand confident in my statement.

Quote:
"You could make him a blond and shave his whiskers, put him in a zoot suit and I'd still spot him"
Former US hostage Chuck Scott



Quoting Udo (Reply 26):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
Oh sure, I'll just take your word on that based upon your credibility. Care to offer any tangible analysis with your elaborate explanations?

No. First of all, re-read this thread. Second, use the search option and you'll find endless topics where I talked about the Gulf carriers' future prospects.

The commercial aviation industry in the Persian Gulf is what you speak of?! Thta's self-evident - but what makes you Udo think other than the oil and tourism industry will be able to support that commerical aviation industry - in the Persian Gulf region?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Leskova
Posted 2005-08-21 23:31:47 and read 10471 times.

Quoting Neverest (Reply 38):
Add to this the fuel cost advantage of refueling in the Middle East.

Considering what one member posted a few days ago, that jet fuel was cheaper in Frankfurt than in Dubai during some weeks/months this year, I don't really see much of an advantage there... I'll see if I can locate that comment again...

Regards,
Frank

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Leskova
Posted 2005-08-21 23:35:35 and read 10441 times.

... and here it is - from member IL76TD, who lists his location as SHJ/UAE...

Quote:
Actually, jet fuel on the commercial market in Dubai is the same price as jet fuel in Frankfurt right now.

Low supply of jet-a has created a bidding market for suppliers, the price has increased approximately 50% in the last few months.

In June and July jet fuel was actually cheaper in Frankfurt than Dubai.

Here's the link to that thread...
RE: 45 A380's For EK! Why So Many? (by IL76TD Aug 17 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Regards,
Frank

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Neverest
Posted 2005-08-22 00:23:52 and read 10115 times.

Quoting Leskova (reply 40) "...jet fuel was cheaper in Frankfurt than in Dubai.."

I meant over long-term and generally in Middle East, not just Dubai as the tread refers to Qatar, and as we are talking about future 15 years or more.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Flydubai
Posted 2005-08-22 00:33:46 and read 10048 times.

AirRyan are you President Bush I am seriously beginning to wonder?  Smile

Guys try and stick to the topic!

Hamzah  Smile

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2005-08-22 00:58:10 and read 9885 times.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
Experts can say all they want, this is a bubble that just has to burst sometime within the next 10 years.

I believe that's what the exactly what the experts are saying. Good call  thumbsup 

In this case, Emirates marketed themselves smartly, and Dubai is a destination in itself. Dubai (Emirates) may have some reality to it, but Doha (Qatar) and Etihad (Abu Dhabi)? Me thinks there may be a way to pickup some widebodies on the cheap in a few years...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: BA
Posted 2005-08-22 01:19:32 and read 9759 times.

MEA's CEO, Mohammed El-Hout has always been one of the strongest and most outspoken critics of these gulf airlines in the Middle East.

In July, he was quoted on one-on-one interview about this issue:


The carrier’s strategy therefore contrasts sharply with the global ambitions of many Gulf-based airlines, for instance, and despite Beirut’s strong geographical position, MEA is not going to target this kind of traffic. “We do not have any plans to be a sixth freedom carrier due to many reasons. One of them is that you have a lot of carriers in the area that are expanding in this way,” says El-Hout. “Indeed, I think you will see not just competition between these carriers, but a price war. In a small area like the Middle East and the Gulf, you cannot have four major hubs none of which are based on real traffic to that point.

http://www.itp.net/business/features/details.php?id=2905

Powerful statements...

Regards

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: PA110
Posted 2005-08-22 01:29:45 and read 9697 times.

This is what I don't understand. Boeing has positioned the 787 to enable more carriers to fly more nonstops to more markets more efficiently. Airbus has responded with the A350 for similar missions. Carriers like Emirates, Etihad, Gulf Air and Qatar Airways make the bulk of the revenue on sixth freedom traffic. As carriers purchase 787s and A350s, there will eventually be far more direct routes to far more city pairs than currently exist. Won't this eventually take a significant bite out of the gulf carriers' business model?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: UAL777
Posted 2005-08-22 01:56:28 and read 9538 times.

Udo, I don't seem to be rude, so if I am, i apologize, but you seem in all of the threads concerning the Middle East to have a sort-of blind faith in the power of the region...Why is this?

In addition you DID compare Singapore to Emirites and Qatar.

Quoting Udo (Reply 19):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):It baffles me how a country the size of Belgium can warrant let alone afford 80 widebody commercial airliners.
Ever checked how tiny Singapore is in comparison? And that very country is indeed home to the world's largest B777 operator...  

If that is not a comparison I dont know what is.

EVERY region can face a downfall, including the Middle East. They are playing a VERY dangerous game which may come back to haunt them, because not only are they placing HUGE wide-body orders, they are also trying to operate both types......it makes NO sense.

My thoughts....,

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: MD80Nut
Posted 2005-08-22 04:06:35 and read 8987 times.

It's easy to forget that Emirates not all that long ago was a regional airline with only A300s and A310s. Now they are a major and serious competitor to many of the great airlines from Europe and Asia and have a seemingly insatiable appetite for wide body jets. If you had told most people that 10-15 years ago they would have probably thought you crazy.

Qatar Airways seems to have similar ambitions. Yeah, it's hard to see how they will pull it off given Emirates' large presence as well as that of other good airlines in the region. I wouldn't underestimate them, though.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2005-08-22 04:21:55 and read 8921 times.

Same could be said for Virgin Atlantic, no?

As for the middle east being "well positioned" for a lot of traffic, it really isn't compared to HKG, SIN, BKK or CDG, FRA, etc. There are many, many routes where going to DUB is going out of the way.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2005-08-22 04:32:11 and read 8872 times.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 49):
Same could be said for Virgin Atlantic, no?

No. Otherwise, VS should be excelling on the LHR-SYD route, but they are not. If I leave SYD via VS it does not account for anything until I am back in London, but even then there is no network for me to tap into. As Virgin Express is in Brussels.

Emirates has an existing network and is more centrally located where passersby can link into and branch out from.

The next few months will be key for Virgin, as they just recently seemlined the reservations systems for Virgin Blue and Virgin Altlantic. If traffic for Virgin does not pick up, the SYD route will be DOA.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Theredbaron
Posted 2005-08-22 05:09:31 and read 8685 times.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 30):

Cool Nickname..!!  Smile

and very funny post... sad but true..! Sad

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):

after reading your post..man the powers that be, are playing you like a piano... too bad

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 47):
EVERY region can face a downfall, including the Middle East. They are playing a VERY dangerous game which may come back to haunt them, because not only are they placing HUGE wide-body orders, they are also trying to operate both types......it makes NO sense.

AAAGHHHEEMMMM...lets rephrase that please...


EVERY region [ INCLUDING THE USA ] can face a downfall. They are playing a VERY dangerous game [ Like the invasion of Iraq ]which may come back to haunt them, because [not only are they wasting tons of money and lives], they are also trying to survive a major 8 trillion deficit......it makes NO sense...

now that is better, see... We all face risks, Do you remember a small town called Las Vegas in the Middle of the desert? that is called vision money and balls, mix them all togheter with a few experts in development and you have a future...

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 48):
It's easy to forget that Emirates not all that long ago was a regional airline with only A300s and A310s. Now they are a major and serious competitor to many of the great airlines from Europe and Asia and have a seemingly insatiable appetite for wide body jets. If you had told most people that 10-15 years ago they would have probably thought you crazy.

Qatar Airways seems to have similar ambitions. Yeah, it's hard to see how they will pull it off given Emirates' large presence as well as that of other good airlines in the region. I wouldn't underestimate them, though.

See there are some of us that think that growth in the world/region in the next 20 years make this kind of purchases posible...

And some of us forget these guys who have tons of $$$$ can afford to make mistakes like this, its only a few billion dollars ( hint the USA will throw away more billions in the next 20 days due to the national debt-and you are paying for it!  Wink ) so they can screw up and keep going... NO BIG DEAL

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-22 08:47:59 and read 7948 times.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 31):
There is no real business succes apart from oil and gas

Funny, you want to tell us Emirates hasn't been successful yet?  Confused

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 31):
They make it as if 15.1% is much but it really isn't.

Not bad for being the result of only few years...

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 31):
They mainly invest in nonsensical infrastructure iso people resources, just check the links you posted yourself.

In your opinion it might be "nonsense"...

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 31):
Just a test and name 3 brands of valuable consumer goods, services or other products that originate from that region.
Now try the same for Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and other young industrialized capitalist country's.

The UAE are not yet industrialized on a similar level, they've just started in following these countries. It takes some time to establish a brand, even you should know that.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 31):
Lets not make it too big and just take the Arabian peninsula.

Yeah, let's generalize...  ill 

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 31):
Visit some of the Emirates and don't visit the architectural marvels but go and look at the Harbor, industrial estates, check out how many top brands actually produce goods or have their mainHQ over there.

Check it out by yourself. "Business" does not only mean "industry".

http://www.indexuae.com/Top/Business_and_Economy

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 32):
The bases for these airlines is akin to being on top of an active volcano. It would take very little to destabilize the entire region.

American paranoia as we know it.  embarrassed 

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 32):
The less Boeing deals with these operators the better. Nice small orders with quick payment and delivery. Nothing more.

Good that Boeing has a slightly different attitude than you towards doing business...  Wink

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 36):
With all that oil money, they can't go wrong right now, but once its gone, they are going to hit the ground, and be woken up loudly, and unpleasently

They are doing all that exactly to prevent what you describe. They are not dumb and don't wait until the oil runs out, but re-invest it. Btw, just in cause you don't know: Dubai's oil reserves are minimal compared to other emirates or countries.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 37):
Let's see Cairo, Beirut, Bangkok,Hong Kong, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, Jakarta,Indian city's,whatever more they also want there portion of the cake and I am not taking into account the carriers based in Europe's main ports and Australasia.

What's your point? All the other airlines have been around all the time and have had their chances of taking a portion of the cake all the time.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
I like to discount the "Royal" famil of "Saudi" Arabia and refer to boundaries of Saudi Arabia as just Arabia.

Would you then also agree when others generalize about the American continent?

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
Than stop whininig about me chastizing the terrorists when they have singlehandidly negatively adversed the commerical aviation industry as well as the price of oil so much!

Strong demand from China and India as well as speculators are the ones to blame for today's oil prices. The terrorists' influence on the oil prices has been very limited.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
They want the West out of their land but it is through their dependance on oil that is the whole reason they are there in the first place!

Who? The West or the terrorists?

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
I believe it was Osama Bin Laden's lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahri who just said in his last video that the West will be punished for "not paying for their oil."

So what? Let that insane bastard talk. The more you take him serious the more he's happy.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
Check out the price of oil going up specifically just because of the latest attack on US warships in Jordan:

See above.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
No, those are just adjectives to descrbe your myopic pacifist ideologies that stems from our last thread on the subject.

So you base all your judgement on one thread? How poor. Calling me a "pacifist" is just ridiculous.  laughing 

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
Stop being so anal - if your going to talk about the current status and projection of the economics of the Persian Gulf don't blame me for talking about oil and the terrorists.

Well, reminds of Pawlow's dog...  Wink

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
Regardless as to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's past and whatever perspective you may regard him in, considering that the Shah Ayatollah Khomeini wrote the book on terrorism and is the one really calling the shots in Iran, I stand confident in my statement.

Yes, mix it all up and draw your expert conclusions if it makes you happy...

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 39):
Thta's self-evident - but what makes you Udo think other than the oil and tourism industry will be able to support that commerical aviation industry - in the Persian Gulf region?

You haven't read the links, as expected...

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 44):
I believe that's what the exactly what the experts are saying.

Who exactly?

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 44):
Me thinks there may be a way to pickup some widebodies on the cheap in a few years...

Then start an airline and be prepared.  Wink

Quoting BA (Reply 45):
MEA's CEO, Mohammed El-Hout has always been one of the strongest and most outspoken critics of these gulf airlines in the Middle East.



Quoting BA (Reply 45):
Powerful statements...

Just an opinion like many others.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 46):
As carriers purchase 787s and A350s, there will eventually be far more direct routes to far more city pairs than currently exist. Won't this eventually take a significant bite out of the gulf carriers' business model?

You haven't read my previous comments right? And you have never had a close look at EK' or QR's network right? And you haven't yet heard what Geoff Dixon recently said, have you?

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 47):
Udo, I don't seem to be rude, so if I am, i apologize, but you seem in all of the threads concerning the Middle East to have a sort-of blind faith in the power of the region...Why is this?

"Faith" is the wrong term. I would call it confidence. And that is based on facts - in contrast to the "ME apocalypse-drivel" we hear from some other people here.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 47):
In addition you DID compare Singapore to Emirites and Qatar.

In terms of geographic size, yes.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 47):
They are playing a VERY dangerous game which may come back to haunt them, because not only are they placing HUGE wide-body orders, they are also trying to operate both types......it makes NO sense.

Yes it does, even if it's hard to imagine for many doubters.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-08-22 08:52:28 and read 7915 times.

No idea where to park all these aircraft and how to accommodate all pax: DOH airport is horrible and smaller than my office

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-22 08:57:12 and read 7885 times.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 53):
No idea where to park all these aircraft and how to accommodate all pax: DOH airport is horrible and smaller than my office

They will have plenty of space when most of the new jets arrive.

http://www.qatarairways.com/6.2074.0.0.1.0.htm


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: 6thfreedom
Posted 2005-08-22 09:08:06 and read 7833 times.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 53):
No idea where to park all these aircraft and how to accommodate all pax: DOH airport is horrible and smaller than my office

Hence QR pushing back A380 deliveries until 2009.
But you are correct... The only thing that will curb QR's growth between now and 2009 is lack of airport infrastructure.


Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but has anyone considered that EK may just well start an aircraft leasing company? Makes sense as far as i'm concerned, and it's an excellent fall back position should they have too many A380's.

As an aside.... has anyone considered over what time frame these A380's will be delivered. You would think that EK are taking delivery of all 45 aircraft in 12 months based on what many doubters on here are writing...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: ArniePie
Posted 2005-08-22 09:22:38 and read 7761 times.

Udo,

We can go into another round of these lengthy somewhat pointless discussions
but I'm afraid I'm not going to change my view and I think neither will you.
It seems to me that a lot of what you are saying and stating is based on an absolute faith in the ability's of the current government.
For the sake of the normal people living over there let's all hope that you're right and I'm wrong (It has been known to happen that I'm wrong you know, however unlikeky that may sound)  Wink  Wink  Wink

I must say that I always like to read the discussions where you participate because you use (sometimes valid) arguments.
Whatever it may mean to you I'll put you on my RR.

mvg

ArniePie

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2005-08-22 09:27:09 and read 7725 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 52):
Who exactly?

Glenn Engel, Goldman Sachs in a report issued on June 20, 2005 after the Paris Air Show.

Quoting Udo (Reply 52):
Then start an airline and be prepared.

Thanks  thumbsup  but no thanks on the airline bit. But, I am actually already planning on using an ex-Etihad A380 fuselage as a house on my land in rural Arizona. I will remove the wings and wheels of course, but then redo the interior.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-08-22 09:32:18 and read 7699 times.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 55):
Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but has anyone considered that EK may just well start an aircraft leasing company? Makes sense as far as i'm concerned, and it's an excellent fall back position should they have too many A380's.

They coul ddo great business with AI, keeping in mind that the latter are dependent on leasing. The yack Ministry here: no words

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 56):
but I'm afraid I'm not going to change my view and I think neither will you.

Actually, discussions are for validating, rethinking, rejecting your own arguments. So if I were you I would not exclude from the beginning that some of the others' arguments might make you elaborate your position.. at least that is what I do  Wink

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-22 09:35:59 and read 7687 times.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 55):
As an aside.... has anyone considered over what time frame these A380's will be delivered. You would think that EK are taking delivery of all 45 aircraft in 12 months based on what many doubters on here are writing...

Deliveries are scheduled between 2007 and 2012.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 56):
We can go into another round of these lengthy somewhat pointless discussions
but I'm afraid I'm not going to change my view and I think neither will you.

Let's agree to disagree.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 56):
I must say that I always like to read the discussions where you participate because you use (sometimes valid) arguments.
Whatever it may mean to you I'll put you on my RR.

Thanks for that, you have my respect as well.

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 57):
But, I am actually already planning on using an ex-Etihad A380 fuselage as a house on my land in rural Arizona. I will remove the wings and wheels of course, but then redo the interior.

But be careful in bringing the baby home, some evil terrorists with stingers could wait for you...oh I forgot, thanks to John Mica you will be perfectly safe.  Wink


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Lhrmaccoll
Posted 2005-08-22 09:43:55 and read 7631 times.

I don't mean to go off the topic, but this really made me laugh.

"Quoting Udo (Reply 26):
And where's the relation between oil and terrorists?"
- The next quote is courtesy AirRyan
"That's one of single motivating aspects of the Islamic-fundamentalists! They want the West out of their land but it is through their dependance on oil that is the whole reason they are there in the first place! I believe it was Osama Bin Laden's lieutenant Ayman al-Zawahri who just said in his last video that the West will be punished for "not paying for their oil." Check out the price of oil going up specifically just because of the latest attack on US warships in Jordan:"

- OK, so ALL people from arab, and islam countries are terrorists? Or anyone that wears a turban? Or anyone that follows a religion other than christianity or Judaism.
Talk about W Bush motivation...
Alex

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Shenzhen
Posted 2005-08-22 09:48:28 and read 7611 times.

I think these three carriers may have bitten off a little too much.. as you can only attack the EU/Australian market for so long (which is the end of the road, so to speak). The rest of Asia doesn't really need a stop over in Dubai, but can fly direct. So, unless India and Africa don't pan out.. then I guess we can expect 45 A380s plus a few hundred other widebodies ferrying people from the EU to Australia via Dubai.

Regarding Singapore... Singapore has been one of the most stable places to conduct business for the past 25 years. This is a huge reason that they were able to build such a tiger economy. Hong Kong was another stable place to conduct businees, when it was under British rule. Most of the other nations around it (in the past) were very corrupt, therefore lagged behind these two city states.

Dubai could also be consdered stable, but as others point out.. there are probably many other places that would be considered less "risky" due to its location. As the Middle East goes, Dubai is probably the most stable...

Cheers

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Cricket
Posted 2005-08-22 09:53:50 and read 7580 times.

If the subcontinental carriers (and I mean the whole ruddy lot) ever start getting all the planes they want to get and start operating the routes they should operate, I'll like to see what happens to carriers like QR and EK. Also with India signing ASA's like no-ones business (save the Gulf countries and Singapore - surprise, surprise) the gulf carriers might get squeezed, and that really won't be a bad thing, because Mid-Eastern airlines treat people from the subcontinent with disdain (unless you go on J). I would dearly love one of the oil-rich Emirs to have to run a 'propah' airline.
Ok, I'm getting rid of my Monday morning rant.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-22 10:24:06 and read 7452 times.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 62):
because Mid-Eastern airlines treat people from the subcontinent with disdain (unless you go on J).

Thanks for another ridiculous generalization.  thumbsdown 


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2005-08-22 10:40:33 and read 7377 times.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 62):
because Mid-Eastern airlines treat people from the subcontinent with disdain (unless you go on J).



Quoting Udo (Reply 63):
Thanks for another ridiculous generalization.

Sadly though, this one is all to true. At least in Jeddah it was.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-08-22 10:53:46 and read 7321 times.

Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 60):
- OK, so ALL people from arab, and islam countries are terrorists? Or anyone that wears a turban? Or anyone that follows a religion other than christianity or Judaism.
Talk about W Bush motivation...

Of course, admitted, we are all terrorists  Wink - good post

Quoting Udo (Reply 63):
Quoting Cricket (Reply 62):
because Mid-Eastern airlines treat people from the subcontinent with disdain (unless you go on J).

Thanks for another ridiculous generalization.

Udo, Cricket has a point. I have flown numerous times from teh Gulf to India. QR was brilliant, but take GF. Indian pax count as low-profile pax and are really treated badly. For what they are doing to the Gulf Economy, it is inappropriate. All these oasis stand on the blood of people from South Asia (Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, BAngladesh etc). When I travelled GF from MCT to DEL, and back via AUH and DOH, even I was treated very badly by the FAs. I have to say that my country people on that sector are not easy.. but hey, if you know these people a little (what they have to sacrifize, their motives), I would understand it. QR has the talenst to treat the pax equally: but the arrogance of some people in the middle east towards my country people is worrysome. I will hopefully explain you soon in person  Wink

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-22 11:19:59 and read 7183 times.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 65):
QR has the talenst to treat the pax equally:

That's why I oppose generalizations.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: VH-BZF
Posted 2005-08-22 12:21:58 and read 6919 times.

So when are Qatar Airways going to be flying some of these new jets to Melbourne, as they were supposed to do by the end of last year?

Anybody know?


Cheers - BZF  Smile

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: 777ER
Posted 2005-08-22 12:25:44 and read 6892 times.

Way to go Boeing and Airbus. Good to see Boeings are going to enter the fleet.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: 6thfreedom
Posted 2005-08-22 12:31:24 and read 6862 times.

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 67):
So when are Qatar Airways going to be flying some of these new jets to Melbourne, as they were supposed to do by the end of last year?

Anybody know?

They opened a Melbourne office last week i believe. Don't know whether that means that flights are imminent...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: PA110
Posted 2005-08-22 17:21:24 and read 6507 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 63):
Thanks for another ridiculous generalization.

Udo, you need to get off the soapbox and cut the attitude. I've traveled extensively in the region and lived in the middle east for 3 years. Gulf Arabs in particular are some of most racist people I've ever met. They "import" labor to do the tasks they consider beneath them. They treat many South Asians with utter contempt, or at the very least, complete indifference.

I asked a valid question about the capabilities of the next generation of aircraft cutting into the gulf carrier's business model, and all you could manage was a snotty answer. Your becoming a real arrogant jerk on this forum. We've got enough of them. We don't need any more.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-22 17:45:08 and read 6459 times.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 70):
They "import" labor to do the tasks they consider beneath them.



Quoting PA110 (Reply 70):
They treat many South Asians with utter contempt, or at the very least, complete indifference.

Nobody is forced to go to the Gulf states. And were were talking about airline service, not overall labor conditions.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 70):
I asked a valid question about the capabilities of the next generation of aircraft cutting into the gulf carrier's business model, and all you could manage was a snotty answer.

I asked you three questions if I recall correctly...  Wink

Quoting PA110 (Reply 70):
Your becoming a real arrogant jerk on this forum. We've got enough of them. We don't need any more.

Actually I couldn't care less about your bitching.  snooty 


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-08-22 18:15:31 and read 6415 times.

PA110, Udo, how about just being friends again?  Wink - I kinda like you both... so I won't engage in the debate anymore (and I remained silent), though I want to answer to one statement, with a very friendly disagreement

Quoting Udo (Reply 71):
Nobody is forced to go to the Gulf states. And were were talking about airline service, not overall labor conditions

I think this statement is by far too hard - I think I have to defend my country people a little: This entire migration to the Gulf stands on a different ethos. The mid-80s in India were really very tough (social factors like caste did prevent the participation of many people, and social factors like class were further distinguishing), and there was the dream of going overseas, earning enough to import some welfare they earned through hard labor back to India. And seriously, the laborers were and are treated very badly (by the way, rich Indians are not really better within the own country - I see it every day on the opposite of my office). When cheap labor is hired, the prospects they are offered are much better in the presentations than in reality. The people who were hired were from the lowest sections - i.e. it is better if you "import" someone who does not have the intellectual capability to go against you, someone who simply EXECUTES what has to be done. By the way, these people contributed a whole lot to India's GDP (the entire Diaspora touched a peak of 10 % (!!!) with remittances to the GDP, money sent back to their family, only - keeping in mind that India had a rigid financial market, this number is just IMMENSE). They had to leave their families back, in order to earn some money through unhuman conditions... my father was just shocked when he was in KWI and Saudi. By the way, we have these people a lot to thank. When India was nearly bankrupt in 1991 (a third golden WTO Thrench - in fact, only 2 weeks to cover necessary imports and cover the debth in terms of forex), this money was crucial for the survival. India's economy still lives from these forex' , though it is much better now.

But this statement, so think I, is a little bit unfair.. in the end, they are all humans and deserve a as much dignity as everyone. And I hope I could try to show that saying "They don't have to go" is a little harsh, seeing these backgrounds..  Smile - please, both of you, don't take this post as offense

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: EKGOLD
Posted 2005-08-22 21:41:58 and read 6275 times.

Quoting Squirrel83 (Thread starter):
I agree, I love to see the Boeing widebody orders but in the longrun they aren't worth anything if they never manifest or are shortly sold back to Boeing because they mis-calculated their projections. I'm looking but I'm not finding too many other businesses in the region other than in oil or tourism.

how many gulf state aircraft do you see sitting idle in the desert compared to those of US carriers? Qatar Airways, EK and other Gulf State Carriers i am sure have had plenty of time to review the way their colleagues have operated and learnt from their mistakes... Mistakes which manifest themselves in the desert and are very sad pictures indeed when they crop up on the ANet database...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: PA110
Posted 2005-08-22 22:12:59 and read 6221 times.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 72):
please, both of you, don't take this post as offense

None taken at all. No worries.  Smile

Quoting Udo (Reply 52):
You haven't read my previous comments right?

Yes, I read your previous comments, but like others on this forum I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

Quoting Udo (Reply 52):
And you have never had a close look at EK' or QR's network right?

I've am well acquainted with both EK and QR networks. They are almost exclusively designed for transit traffic. The fact that they are striving to connect the dots between more than just major markets could still conceivably come under eventual pressure from airlines deploying 787s to B markets.

Quoting Udo (Reply 52):
And you haven't yet heard what Geoff Dixon recently said, have you?

Geoff Dixon has no shortage of things to say, which little pearl of wisdom were you referring to?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: LH477
Posted 2005-08-22 22:42:38 and read 6168 times.

These Middle Easter Countries are relying to one simple thing, thier giant neighbours to the East....India and China.....EK in the past has preety much stated that their long term strategy is depandent on growth in the Indian Market, both in passengers and cargo....Both India and China are expected to grow at 6-8% annually for 20-30 years......Pickup last weeks Business Week, interesting read.....

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Udo
Posted 2005-08-22 23:20:11 and read 6129 times.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 74):
Yes, I read your previous comments, but like others on this forum I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

I meant the city pair examples in reply 13.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 74):
The fact that they are striving to connect the dots between more than just major markets could still conceivably come under eventual pressure from airlines deploying 787s to B markets.

The chances of nonstops between secondary destinations are not good, not even after hundreds of B787s are on the market. Most of the permanently predicted "point-to-point routes" will originate at a hub because feed will remain essential.
The Gulf carriers will use both A380s and A350/B787s extensively.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 74):
Geoff Dixon has no shortage of things to say, which little pearl of wisdom were you referring to?

He has just explained there won't be a A350/B787 vs A380 rivalry but a combination of both. At least for QF - but it will work for others too.


Regards
Udo

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: YOWza
Posted 2005-08-22 23:23:05 and read 6123 times.

Quoting Beauing (Reply 14):
Much of this growth will come at the expense of the large European legacy carriers such as BA, LH, and AF. Their lucrative Asian routes will get hammered by this competition.

Spot on my son!

Quoting Udo (Reply 19):

Ever checked how tiny Singapore is in comparison? And that very country is indeed home to the world's largest B777 operator...

I think we all know by this point that AirRyan is not god's gift to geography. Quick tongue lashing like this put you on my RU list, keep it up!

Quoting Udo (Reply 19):
Well, it was just a matter of time until someone throws in "Osama". Great.

Next time we have an Arabian flavoured thread I'll put money on it that the first mention of terror comes from AirRyan or one of his compatriots.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 25):

Part of the reason for such a rampant displeasure of the West (yes, Osama was from Saudi Arabia) is that only the Royal House of Saud gets the revenues from the oil. Arabia would be much better off if the oil revenues were distributed for all of the Arabian society to benefit from, and not just the "Royal" family.

Hmm and which country pray tell has been in bed with the Sauds from day one... no it's not Canada or Germany or the UK or those Frenchies you hate so much but the USA. So simply bashing the house of Saud is really quite a weak argument.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 70):
Udo, you need to get off the soapbox and cut the attitude. I've traveled extensively in the region and lived in the middle east for 3 years. Gulf Arabs in particular are some of most racist people I've ever met. They "import" labor to do the tasks they consider beneath them. They treat many South Asians with utter contempt, or at the very least, complete indifference.

I have lived in GCC countries for 5 years and in that time immersed myself in the culture. I speak decent Arabic and even still it is impossible to understand the complexity of Arab culture. Yes, they don't treat South Asians too well but the last time I checked there are parts of the US where you will be less than welcome if you are black or Hispanic. I was in Chicago recently and some black friends of mine told me there are some night clubs they are simply not welcome at. As for menial labourers if you are indeed in the US right now look at the guys at fast food joints, car washes etc chances are they have an "ez" at the end of their last name.

Now back to aviation. I have to say the QR colours on a 777 will look amazing even though I'm not a Boeing man. No doubt they have really planned this out well and a nice mix of A and B aircraft seems a great solution to their needs. I only hope that they address their most important need first, namely the rapid expansion and modernization of DOH. At the moment it is a total mess.

While Yemen does not have the resources to EK QR GF EY and the like they have been pluggin away with some money from the Saudis and IY is now flying to a lot of places with good loads and is doing quite well, all be it under the radar.

While's we're talking about Gulf based carriers isn't Air Arabia (out of Sharjah) younger than EY?

YOWza

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-08-22 23:39:36 and read 6082 times.

Quoting Udo (Reply 71):
Nobody is forced to go to the Gulf states.

Crappy treatment of South Asians, Southeast Asians, and Fillipinos by Gulf State Arabs occurs even outside the Gulf States. There was a forced labor and servant abuse case involving a Saudi princess pushing down her captive Indonesian maid in Florida. And I know of a case of essentially indentured servitude involving several foreign workers being held against their will in one of the Gulf State embassies.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Sebolino
Posted 2005-08-22 23:45:11 and read 6063 times.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 11):
I just don't see how 3-4 tiny little countries with airports just miles apart will somehow provide the sustainable growth required to fill 200+ large widebodies on a daily basis. In the words of Alan Greenspan..."[The Emirs] are suffering from irrational exuberance".

Perhaps, but thanks the western world (especially the US) and China buying so much oil at a so high price, they have plenty of money to spend. So why couldn't they be able to pay ?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-08-23 07:10:10 and read 5947 times.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 77):
Next time we have an Arabian flavoured thread I'll put money on it that the first mention of terror comes from AirRyan or one of his compatriots.

Me too. The minute AirRyan posts, you can be assured that it something based on assumptions drawn from the microcosm he lives - some hate statements. His posts are insulting and an embarassment for the great nation of the US. hence, I changed my country flag to India.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: EKGOLD
Posted 2005-08-23 07:43:38 and read 5930 times.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 70):
Udo, you need to get off the soapbox and cut the attitude. I've traveled extensively in the region and lived in the middle east for 3 years. Gulf Arabs in particular are some of most racist people I've ever met. They "import" labor to do the tasks they consider beneath them. They treat many South Asians with utter contempt, or at the very least, complete indifference

The predominant reason they import labour is because the population and skill base just does not exist in the Gulf States. Tasks beneath is a very general statement and as I have visited the US on many occasions, how do you explain the number of Asians/Africans/SOuth Americans working in menial jobs that could be considered "beneath" the Anglo Saxon population. Granted, the treatment of some Asian expatriates is questionable but by and large the majority of GCC nationals treat their staff very well. Americans have a short memory when it comes to treatment of imported labour, or was slavery never proven??

Tell me when you lived here, did you have a live in maid, a part time maid that simply did cleaning or child minding, office tea boy, guy that washed your car, office driver and the list goes on?? if the answer is yes to any of those then your statements are somewhat hypocritical...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-08-23 09:08:08 and read 5864 times.

Quoting EKGOLD (Reply 81):
The predominant reason they import labour is because the population and skill base just does not exist in the Gulf States. Tasks beneath is a very general statement and as I have visited the US on many occasions, how do you explain the number of Asians/Africans/SOuth Americans working in menial jobs that could be considered "beneath" the Anglo Saxon population.

The US's labor force participation is high, which is part of the reason why there is a demand for foreign labor. This is in contrast to the situation in some wealthy Arab countries where a lot of the population is underemployed (and that is ignoring labor force participation of women) because they don't have the right skill sets or simply won't do the jobs available.

Quote:
Granted, the treatment of some Asian expatriates is questionable but by and large the majority of GCC nationals treat their staff very well. Americans have a short memory when it comes to treatment of imported labour, or was slavery never proven??

Um, slavery ended a long time ago in the US. On the otherhand it still continues in parts of the Arab world and Africa.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: EKGOLD
Posted 2005-08-23 09:25:56 and read 5850 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 82):
On the otherhand it still continues in parts of the Arab world and Africa.

be careful how you use the word slavery... a blanket statement like that is very irresponsible indeed...

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: BA
Posted 2005-08-23 09:36:41 and read 5845 times.

The Gulf States import two kinds of labor.

The first kind of labor is the "hi-tech" labor. They bring Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians who are educated in many fields such as engineering, business management, accounting, etc. This is why the Gulf is full of non-Gulf Arabs. Of course, they always put a Gulf Arab to be the "head" of all operations, the boss, but often times they are just for show.

The second kind of labor is the so-called "dirty work" labor in which they bring South Asians and Southeast Asians mainly, Indians, Filipinos, and Indonesians. These are the construction workers, street cleaners, and of course maids for the large families.

The gulf is trying to become more self-sufficient so that it doesn't have to rely on so much foreign labor. That's why they are sending young men and women outside to get degrees in various fields. They are providing all sorts of scholarships.

In addition, they have built and are still building many universities.

The late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia was one of the strongest advocates in the construction of more schools and universities to educate Saudis. This is actually what he is admired for the most. He was Minister of Education for many years before he became king.

Regards

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: HZ747300
Posted 2005-08-23 10:07:10 and read 5826 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 82):
Um, slavery ended a long time ago in the US. On the otherhand it still continues in parts of the Arab world and Africa.

Where it is legal now, it is referred to as indentured servitude. Has a nice ring to it, don't you think. Importing labour when unemployment is at 5% is different than importing labour when unemployment is at 20%.

Now back to the topic header. With Emirates as big as they are and clearly the leader in marketing themselves as a preferred carrier from EUR to AUS/Asia/NZ, and the Dubai government marketing themselves and creating an island oasis which has evolved into a tourist destination itself, does that leave room for:

- Qatar Airways (be mindful that Emirates is not the only one it is competing with)
- The island-state of Qatar to become a draw of traffic itself

I'm saying that there is a saturation point. There is a point where this is no longer feasible, and while Qatar can become a draw, can it outshine Dubai? I say no. Dubai is too much the playground of the region for expats and locals alike. The draw of Dubai from tourists afar is so strong, that it would be impossible to overtake it--unless Qatar becomes the Beruit of the 70's (my parents tell me that was their playground while living Jeddah prior to the civil war breaking out in Lebanon).

For Qatar Airways, they will suffer from the same problem as their parent state. Emirates is clearly the leader in the region, but people have other options:

- Direct to Asia
- EK
- Gulf Air
- Singapore Air
- Malaysia
- Thai

Those are well established, highly regarded airlines they are competing against. Beyond the planes, how are they going to differientiate themselves by service to the extent that they can lure people away. On Thai, Singapore, and Emirates I can earn United Miles too!!!

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: AirMale
Posted 2005-08-23 11:32:34 and read 5764 times.

First of all, I don't think Qatar wants to become a second Dubai, or a second Disneyland in the desert.... The Qatari society is much more traditional which might just as well become it's trump card. Personally I want to experience the "authentic", not all those "sterile" shopping malls and hotel complexes...

Qatar is investing heavily in MICE (meetings, incentives, conventions, exhibition) tourism, Sports Events (Asian Games 2006) to differentiate itself from its neighbor's. Also Qatar is a "new" destination in it's infancy.... so one should not compare it to Dubai....

And HZ747300: on Qatar Airways you can earn Lufthansa Miles & More and also accrue/redeem miles on ANA and Virgin Atlantic.

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: YOWza
Posted 2005-08-24 17:52:27 and read 5611 times.

Quoting AirMale (Reply 86):
First of all, I don't think Qatar wants to become a second Dubai, or a second Disneyland in the desert.... The Qatari society is much more traditional which might just as well become it's trump card. Personally I want to experience the "authentic", not all those "sterile" shopping malls and hotel complexes...

Regardless of what you want you are getting a second Dubai, having lived in Doha and Dubai I can tell you this for a fact. Dubai has hotel X then Doha will get a hotel X too. Dubai has "The Palm" Qatar has "The Paarl" the parallels are endless and include of course EK - QR.

Quoting AirMale (Reply 86):
Qatar is investing heavily in MICE (meetings, incentives, conventions, exhibition) tourism, Sports Events (Asian Games 2006) to differentiate itself from its neighbor's. Also Qatar is a "new" destination in it's infancy.... so one should not compare it to Dubai....

Dubai brought itself where it is today using the exact same MICE approach they just called it something different.

YOWza

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: AirbusfanYYZ
Posted 2005-08-24 19:06:59 and read 5542 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
It baffles me how a country the size of Belgium can warrant let alone afford 80 widebody commercial airliners. The next time I hear one of Osama bin Buttwipin's cowards accuse the "West" of not paying for "their" oil I'm going to pop a Camel!

Sounds like "plane envy" to me. 

Have you ever been to Dubai? I have had the pleasure of visiting twice in recent years and it is truly one of the most remarkable places on earth. Granted it doesn't have a much natural beauty (i.e. mountains etc.) but they have created quite a formidable tourist destination.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 80):
Quoting YOWza (Reply 77):
Next time we have an Arabian flavoured thread I'll put money on it that the first mention of terror comes from AirRyan or one of his compatriots.
Me too. The minute AirRyan posts, you can be assured that it something based on assumptions drawn from the microcosm he lives - some hate statements. His posts are insulting and an embarassment for the great nation of the US. hence, I changed my country flag to India.

Mrniji, most on here know that there are still many good, intellegent people in the USA and I thank Allah for that!

Cheers,
Kaz

[Edited 2005-08-24 19:08:13]

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Dhefty
Posted 2005-08-24 19:28:22 and read 5510 times.

Quoting EKGOLD (Reply 83):
be careful how you use the word slavery... a blanket statement like that is very irresponsible indeed...

EKGOLD, you sound quite naive about a very troubling problem that continues to exist in many countries of the world. Check out the following references:

www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html
http://www.freetheslaves.net/slavery/faqs/
http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/antislavery/modern.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4534393.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/10_05_05_forcedlabour.pdf

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Flydubai
Posted 2005-08-31 22:34:34 and read 5316 times.

Quoting HMUcfm56 (Reply 5):
Quoting Flydubai (Reply 4):

Quoting B742 (Reply 3):
I thought this was EY???

QR was re-launched in 1997. It is now one of the world’s fastest growing airlines along with EK.
EK was launched in 1985

Hamzah

But EY was launched in 2003

Of course! EY= Etihad Airways  blush 

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: AirRyan
Posted 2005-08-31 23:15:58 and read 5232 times.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 77):
Quoting Udo (Reply 19):
Well, it was just a matter of time until someone throws in "Osama". Great.

Next time we have an Arabian flavoured thread I'll put money on it that the first mention of terror comes from AirRyan or one of his compatriots.

You can bank on it.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 77):
Hmm and which country pray tell has been in bed with the Sauds from day one... no it's not Canada or Germany or the UK or those Frenchies you hate so much but the USA. So simply bashing the house of Saud is really quite a weak argument.

The US wasn't the only ones selling arms to Saudi Arabia. Besides, the House of Saud is an oligarchy at best and has done little to nothing to help supress their in-house breeding of terrorism and for that I wish them little good will. They were dirt farmers before 1938 and the world was better off for it.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 80):
Quoting YOWza (Reply 77):
Next time we have an Arabian flavoured thread I'll put money on it that the first mention of terror comes from AirRyan or one of his compatriots.

Me too. The minute AirRyan posts, you can be assured that it something based on assumptions drawn from the microcosm he lives - some hate statements. His posts are insulting and an embarassment for the great nation of the US. hence, I changed my country flag to India.

Having a choice and acces to an unbiased media with the premise of free speech is a bitch, eh?!  yuck 

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Mrniji
Posted 2005-09-01 06:01:16 and read 5077 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 91):
Having a choice and acces to an unbiased media with the premise of free speech is a bitch, eh?!

I fully agree. But freedom of speech does not mean that you have to make a fool out of yourself in public  Wink

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2005-09-01 11:10:55 and read 4997 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
It baffles me how a country the size of Belgium can warrant let alone afford 80 widebody commercial airliners.



Quoting Udo (Reply 19):
How they can afford to buy the aircraft? Hm, they export the stuff which flows out of every gas stations...



Quoting Lhrmaccoll (Reply 36):
With all that oil money,

Not oil, gas. Gas is Qatar's future. They have rather a lot of it.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 23):
The "terrorists" have forever throughly screwed up the commerical aviation industry we all on this thread are so adamently interested

Hmm, that's why Airbus and Boeing are having such a tough year!  scratchchin 

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 30):
Mybe if gas hits $4 a gallon they'll buy 120 planes.

With the damage done to refineries by hurricane Katrina, $4 a gallon is guaranteed. Doesn't matter how much oil is pumped out of the ground, refining capacity is the problem.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 53):
No idea where to park all these aircraft and how to accommodate all pax: DOH airport is horrible and smaller than my office

That's why they're building a new airport that was announced over a year ago.

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 85):
The island-state of Qatar to become a draw of traffic itself

Check a map. Qatar is not an island!

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: PM
Posted 2005-09-02 14:50:14 and read 4755 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 91):
Having a choice and acces to an unbiased media...

"unbiased media"? Wow. So you don't live in the States after all?

Topic: RE: Qatar Airways To Buy 80 New Jets
Username: Zoheb
Posted 2005-09-04 13:20:40 and read 4540 times.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 91):
the House of Saud is an oligarchy at best and has done little to nothing to help supress their in-house breeding of terrorism and for that I wish them little good will. They were dirt farmers before 1938 and the world was better off for it.

What do u think u're U. S. was like after 60 years of independence. They were all killing each other over slavery and blindly searching for gold.


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