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Topic: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Letsgetwet
Posted 2005-11-16 05:43:51 and read 6704 times.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but after reading some heated discussion on another thread, I would like to know what US city metropolis has the largest O/D market.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: D L X
Posted 2005-11-16 05:46:52 and read 6688 times.

If it's not NYC, I'll eat my hat. (Actually, I won't.)

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Iowaman
Posted 2005-11-16 05:57:21 and read 6665 times.

NYC is the largest O&D market in the U.S.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: IRelayer
Posted 2005-11-16 05:59:09 and read 6658 times.

I think it goes in the same order as the top three cities...

NYC
LA
Chicago

-IR

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Petazulu
Posted 2005-11-16 06:17:25 and read 6617 times.

no doubt NYC. I can't believe that would not be obvious to most anyone. Largest metro area by a mile, busines capital, tourist capital, international gateway, etc...

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Letsgetwet
Posted 2005-11-16 06:32:10 and read 6592 times.

Thank you, everyone, for confirming what I thought.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-11-16 06:36:41 and read 6582 times.

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 4):
no doubt NYC. I can't believe that would not be obvious to most anyone. Largest metro area by a mile, busines capital, tourist capital, international gateway, etc...

One could easily argue it is Los Angeles. Firstly, two of NYC's largest O&D markets, Boston and Washington, get just as much rail travel as they do airplane travel, that right there cuts into the numbers. Considering that NYC is in a much more dense region than LA, and closer to many other large markets, like Philadelphia, Boston, etc., air travel might not be as crucial a need. I'm not saying NYC isn't the largest, it probably is, but it wouldn't shock me if it was LA.

[Edited 2005-11-16 06:37:53]

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Tsnamm
Posted 2005-11-16 15:09:59 and read 6431 times.

NYC metro area (LI, Northern NJ, Ct.,Westchester,Rockland etc.) has approx 21 million people...I can't see it not being NYC...

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Slider
Posted 2005-11-16 15:51:20 and read 6359 times.

NYC by a lot, actually.

The catchment geographically is about as large as LA, but the population density is far more.

Also, from an airline planning standpoint, please bear in mind that MARKET SIZE is not synonymous with city/MSA size or population.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Dartland
Posted 2005-11-16 16:43:48 and read 6305 times.

Exactly. NYC by far, but I wouldn't be surprised if places like MCO and LAS were very high on the O&D list even though they have much smaller populations (compared to places like ORD and ATL, which have such high transfer volume, but may have lower O&D traffic).

Anyone know?

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 17:53:16 and read 6244 times.

Los Angeles Markets:

Burbank
Inyokern
LAX
Long Beach
Ontario
Orange County

New York City Markets:

JFK
La Guardia
Newark

Washington D.C. Markets:

Baltimore
Dulles
National

It can near easily be found that Los Angeles is the largest "market" in the United States. New York is close, yet the number from the Los Angeles area airports are greater than those of the New York area airports. One thing to take into consideration are the throngs of flights from Asia which rely near solely on LAX O/D traffic. Part of the Los Angeles regions huge numbers are due to Southwest Airlines Focus City at LAX, and sizeable operations at Orange County, Burbank, and Ontario. From which all Southwest Airlines LA area airports operate 3-4 hourly flights on a North-South California corridor, and East-West Las Vegas/Phoenix corridor.

Please review the following link if you have any questions as to why New York City isnt even on the map!

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2005/bts052_05/html/bts052_05.html

Scroll to nearly the bottom and review the following:

-Table 4: Top 10 Airports Ranked by January-August 2005 Domestic Enplanements.
-Table 7: Top 10 Airports Ranked by August 2005 Domestic Enplanements.


KAHALA777

[Edited 2005-11-16 17:57:19]

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: COfaninBOS
Posted 2005-11-16 17:56:56 and read 6226 times.

Funny how you choose every airport possible for your LA coverage area but leave out quite a few for the greater NYC area...

Where is Islip on Long Island?
Where is Atlantic City?
Where is New Haven?
Where is Westchester County?

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Falcon84
Posted 2005-11-16 18:01:11 and read 6210 times.

Kahala777, you keep saying NYC isn't the largest Metro Market. It is.

Read:

http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab03.pdf

It's metro area, people-wise, is 5 million larger than that for L.A. And that's from the Census Bureau, dude.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 18:01:26 and read 6210 times.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 11):
Where is Islip on Long Island?
Where is Atlantic City?
Where is New Haven?
Where is Westchester County?

Read the FAA statistics....

Islip, ask anyone and they will say that Islip is a gateway to Long Island, not New York City. Southwest Airlines has never once advertised Islip as a New York gateway. If you included all the airports within an hour and a half from Los Angeles, Los Angeles would be on top of New York with ease.

Atlantic City, is not even near NYC, it is closer to Philadelphia than New York. In addition Atlantic City has and never will be associated as a gateway to New York City.

New Haven, is it even worth it to add the near zero number of passenger movements?

Westchester, well you could add Westchester, then again it has embarassing numbers when compared with the Los Angeles region!

KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 18:04:22 and read 6194 times.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
Kahala777, you keep saying NYC isn't the largest Metro Market

We are talking about aviation arent we?  sarcastic 

Read the "aviation" statistics:

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2005/bts052_05/html/bts052_05.html

Doesnt a discussion on "population" belong in a non-aviation forum?  yes 


KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: COfaninBOS
Posted 2005-11-16 18:07:11 and read 6185 times.

Dude, you stretch the truth to fit your argument more than any other poster on here.

I don't care if Southwest doesn't market Islip as a "gateway" to Manhattan, it is an airport that serves people who live in Metropolitan New York City! get back to me when you think the people who live in Garden City, Hempstead, Amityville, Babylon, Massapequa, etc... think they live in a metro other than New York.

Funny too how you suggest that normal folks would fly into Orange County as a gateway to Los Angeles but someone from Queens or Brooklyn might not make the trek out to Islip to fly WN down to Florida.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: RoseFlyer
Posted 2005-11-16 18:09:12 and read 6179 times.

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 4):
no doubt NYC. I can't believe that would not be obvious to most anyone. Largest metro area by a mile, busines capital, tourist capital, international gateway, etc...

Here are the top 15 largest metro areas as of the 2000 census for reference:

Rank Metropolitan Area April 1, 2000
1 New York--N. NJ--Long Island, NY--NJ--CT--PA CMSA 21,199,865
2 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County, CA CMSA 16,373,645
3 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha, IL--IN--WI CMSA 9,157,540
4 Washington--Baltimore, DC--MD--VA--WV CMSA 7,608,070
5 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA CMSA 7,039,362
6 Philadelphia--Wilmington--Atlantic City, PA--NJ--DE--MD CMSA 6,188,463
7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--CT CMSA 5,819,100
8 Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint, MI CMSA 5,456,428
9 Dallas--Fort Worth, TX CMSA 5,221,801
10 Houston--Galveston--Brazoria, TX CMSA 4,669,571
11 Atlanta, GA MSA 4,112,198
12 Miami--Fort Lauderdale, FL CMSA 3,876,380
13 Seattle--Tacoma--Bremerton, WA CMSA 3,554,760
14 Phoenix--Mesa, AZ MSA 3,251,876
15 Minneapolis--St. Paul, MN--WI MSA 2,968,806

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Aloha73g
Posted 2005-11-16 18:12:37 and read 6162 times.

Overall NYC is a bigger market with all of its airports, but I am pretty sure that LAX is the #1 O&D airport.

-Aloha!

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 18:21:48 and read 6142 times.

Quoting Aloha73g (Reply 17):
but I am pretty sure that LAX is the #1 O&D airport

It is Los Angeles....


KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 18:29:09 and read 6124 times.

Quoting Letsgetwet (Thread starter):
I would like to know what US city metropolis has the largest O/D market.

Dude... The thread starter... Dude

The question was O/D... Not Census!... Dude

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 15):
Dude, you stretch the truth to fit your argument more than any other poster on here

Dude.... Read the thread starter... Dude...

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 15):
Funny too how you suggest that normal folks would fly into Orange County as a gateway to Los Angeles but someone from Queens or Brooklyn might not make the trek out to Islip to fly WN down to Florida.

Orange Coutny has and always will be a gateway to the Los Angeles region. Orange County, if you dont recall, is neighboring to Long Beach, of which Jet Blue has its Los Angeles area base. In addition you forget Orange County is the gateway to some of the Los Angeles regions most affluent areas - Laguna Niguel, Laguna Beach, Newport Beach, and Costa Mesa. You may want to tell the people at Jet Blue that they dont fly to the Los Angeles region. They may want to rethink their marketing...  sarcastic 

You may actually want to visit New York City, for once in your life. Your remark shows at how you have a severe lack of knowledge about New York City and the airports in its buroughs. La Guardia, is in Northern Queens. JFK, is on lower Queens, bordering on Kings County (Brooklyn). No I do not know one person that would drive past La Guardia, or JFK on their way to get to Islip...  sarcastic 

KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: COfaninBOS
Posted 2005-11-16 18:31:46 and read 6119 times.

Kahala-

Your own statistics work against you.

Here are the passenger numbers for 2004.

37,518,143 JFK
31,947,266 EWR
24,435,661 LGA

93,901,070 three airport total

60,688,609 LAX
9,272,394 SNA
6,837,337 ONT
4,916,800 BUR
2,926,873 LGB
1,367,804 PSP (I'll even give you Palm Springs)

86,109,817 for LA area airports.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 18:39:46 and read 6092 times.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 20):
Here are the passenger numbers for 2004.

37,518,143 JFK
31,947,266 EWR
24,435,661 LGA

93,901,070 three airport total

60,688,609 LAX
9,272,394 SNA
6,837,337 ONT
4,916,800 BUR
2,926,873 LGB
1,367,804 PSP (I'll even give you Palm Springs)

86,109,817 for LA area airports.

You gave 2004, not 2005....


The year 2005 has brought Jet Blue at Long Beach to double its operation.

The year 2005 has brought Jet Blue to Burbank.

The year 2005 has brought additional American Airlines operations at LAX.

The year 2005 has brought additional Continental Airlines operations at LAX.

The year 2005 has brought additional Delta/Song operations at LAX.

The year 2005 has brought additional Delta operations at BUR.

The year 2005 has brought additional Southwest operations at LAX.

2005 from what has been said, is a banner year for the Los Angeles region, without the advent of Palm Springs.

KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: COfaninBOS
Posted 2005-11-16 18:40:06 and read 6091 times.

Kahala-

You are wrong. The numbers simply don't lie. Thanks for playing.

Additionally, you might want to wake up to reality. If you think people who live in Laguna Beach are more connected to downtown Los Angeles than the people in Suburban Long Island are to Manhattan, then you need more help than I could even imagine.

Do you know that Queens and Brooklyn are located ON LONG ISLAND? There's no body of water that seperates the boroughs from the suburbs. They are physically adjacent and the communities are connected via the Long Island Expressway as well as via commuter rail.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Slider
Posted 2005-11-16 18:40:28 and read 6090 times.

Game, set, match for NYC.

Again, I'll remind everyone that market size is not predicated on population.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2005-11-16 18:49:04 and read 6071 times.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 19):
The question was O/D... Not Census!... Dude

That's right, O&D. Not the connection inflated numbers that appear on airport statistics. The tables on the BTS website are good for nothing in this case.
I suspect not only NY is the largest, but when it comes to travel dollars, it beats by a very large amount L.A. because of much greater premium traffic.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Timz
Posted 2005-11-16 18:49:49 and read 6070 times.

The questioner asked about O&D passengers, and nobody has quoted him any O&D numbers yet. As I recall has them somewhere, but I forget where. If anyone finds them, remember they count the LA-area airports separately, but count LGA+EWR+JFK together.

As I recall LAX is the top airport, but don't recall whether LA-area total beats NY-area.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-11-16 18:50:56 and read 6065 times.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):

Here are the top 15 largest metro areas as of the 2000 census for reference:

The US Census totally redesigned metro definitions. They are now:

1) NYC - 18.6M
2) LA - 12.7M
3) Chicago - 9.2M
4) Philadelphia - 5.7M
5) Dallas - 5.4M
6) Miami - 5.2M
7) Washington - 5.0M
8) Houston - 4.9M
9) Atlanta - 4.5M
10) Detroit - 4.4M

http://www.proximityone.com/msa03us.htm

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: COfaninBOS
Posted 2005-11-16 18:57:16 and read 6048 times.

Kahala-

Are you 12?

There were nearly EIGHT MILLION more passengers at JFK, EWR, and LGA in 2004 than the 6 largest LA area airports combined.

Additionally, the Port Authority of New York/New Jersey counts MacArthur (Islip), Stewart (Newburg), and White Plains (Westchester County) as regional airports. That would add another 3,209,164 passengers to the NY area airport totals, bringing the grand total to 97,110,234!

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 19:05:48 and read 6030 times.

Los Angeles is and has been one of the top O/D in the U.S. for a number of years. Los Angeles is not a "connecting" airport like Newark or JFK for Continental and Jet Blue respectfully. True LAX has connecting flights, although nothing in the range of EWR or JFK. There is no single airline at Los Angeles, that can claim Los Angeles as a hub. There is no one airline in the Los Angeles region that claims anything in Los Angeles more than a focus city. In addition the combined numbers for LGA/EWR were not equal to LAX alone. One airport is equal to two. Now what does that tell you about Los Angeles O/D? Check the arrivals manifest on any Alitalia, LOT, Iberia, Austrian, or Olympic flights and you are sure to find a slough of connecting passengers headed for the Los Angeles region.


KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Timz
Posted 2005-11-16 19:09:30 and read 6016 times.

Looks like LAS is the largest O&D airport, if I'm reading this right (1st quarter 2005):

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domfares/tab7051.txt

(Looks like they're in airport-code alphabetical order.)

And NY-area probably does beat LA-area, tho I was too lazy to add them up. But this table might be domestic passengers only?

[Edited 2005-11-16 19:17:59]

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: SRT75
Posted 2005-11-16 19:11:37 and read 6009 times.

With all due respect to Kahala777 and all the Kahala777-bashers, nobody has actually answered the question -- largest O/D market.

I am familiar with LAX, not so much with JFK, but my experience is that LAX has limited connecting pax. They are only a few categories of connecting pax at LAX: 1) connecting to asia/Australia; 2) connecting on Southwest from northern California to Vegas/Phoenix; and 3) connecting from main-line to express flights to Santa Barbara, Palm Springs, San Diego, etc.

This would suggest to me, that a large percentage of LAX's 60+ million pax are O/D.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: 727EMflyer
Posted 2005-11-16 19:11:41 and read 6009 times.

Lets move this away from NY and LA. How about Las Vegas and Orlando? Look at the statistics Kahala quoted. The statistics are for enplanements.... which will include connecting pax, right? The only two airports that aren't mega-hubs there are LAS and MCO! Granted HP has a large operation at LAS, but a lot of that traffic is O&D!

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: N770WD
Posted 2005-11-16 20:59:48 and read 5932 times.

O&D Passengers, YE 1Q 2005, DOT Report. Figures are per day, origin and destination only, non-directional.

New York area:
LGA 121,092 daily passengers
EWR 97,107
JFK 92,928
Total = 311,127 daily passengers (#1)

Los Angeles Basin:
LAX 173,597 daily passengers
SNA 49,088
ONT 34,007
BUR 26,222
LGB 15,483
Total = 298,397 daily O&D passengers (#2)

Chicago area:
ORD 148,696 daily passengers
MDW 66,897
Total = 215,593 daily O&D passengers (#3)

Washington area:
BWI 84,683 daily passeners
DCA 68,481
IAD 55,753
Total = 208,917 daily O&D passengers (#4)

#5 through #11 --

Las Vegas = 165,501 daily O&D
Boston = 106,974 (BOS) + 28,911 (PVD) + 21,016 (MHT) = 156,901
Miami = 99,061 (FLL) + 48,307 (MIA) = 147,368
Orlando = 143,497
Atlanta = 142,115
Dallas = 112,204 (DFW) + 23,693 (DAL) = 135,897
Phoenix = 123,128

And then a cluster between 80,000 and 120,000 daily.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 21:14:04 and read 5903 times.

N770WD,

Great information, where did you find it? I would be very interested to see what other figures they have as well!

727EMFLYER,

It has been said that for years Chicago is the Convention Capitol of the United States, it would seem as if that honor has been given to Las Vegas. It was remarked a few years back that Las Vegas was about the 8th busiest airport in the nation, and that almost 90% of that was due to O.D.

COfaninBOS,

It is easy to see where you are coming from. I understand your point of view. The only thing that I am questioning is that how or why would a person living in Brooklyn or Astoria, want to drive/train past La Guardia or JFK to go out to Islip? Your point is well taken. Thank you in advance for your spirited response.

Thanks..


KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: COfaninBOS
Posted 2005-11-16 21:17:43 and read 5897 times.

If you do the math, then the 3 major NYC airports handle 4,506,420 more O & D passengers a year than the top five LA area airports.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 21:25:28 and read 5871 times.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 34):
If you do the math, then the 3 major NYC airports handle 4,506,420 more O & D passengers a year than the top five LA area airports.

To my error, you have made your point. Very understandable. However, it is amazing that LAX handles the numbers of Newark and La Guardia combined and a quarter f JFK traffic as well. I still have yet to find a source to prove what airport has the healthiest O.D in the United States.

KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: COfaninBOS
Posted 2005-11-16 21:34:57 and read 5845 times.

Because Southwest offers really cheap fares. Additionally, on WN's own website, you'll find that the airline does market Islip as a way to NYC. There's information about shuttle service to the train station (Long Island Rail Road) that will connect you to Penn Station in Manhattan.

Additionally, I am not sure why someone who lives in the Laguna area of Orange County should count towards the O&D numbers for Los Angeles but someone who lives in Oyster Bay, Levittown, Sag Harbor, Babylon, Islip, Hempstead, Stony Brook, Valley Stream, etc... shouldn't count towards New York's O&D stats? That would seem rather disingenuous on your part...

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-16 21:43:16 and read 5826 times.

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 36):
Additionally, I am not sure why someone who lives in the Laguna area of Orange County should count towards the O&D numbers for Los Angeles but someone who lives in Oyster Bay, Levittown, Sag Harbor, Babylon, Islip, Hempstead, Stony Brook, Valley Stream, etc... shouldn't count towards New York's O&D stats? That would seem rather disingenuous on your part...

What you are saying makes perfect sense. However, Angelinos, fondly refer to Orange County as the most relaxed of Los Angeles areas. Hotel companies such as Ritz Carlton and Four Seasons remark their Orange County properties as being in the Los Angeles region. Everyone associates Disneyland with Los Angeles, and it is in Orange County, no more than 20 minutes from SNA. Just as many refer to Ellis Island in New York, when in reality it is in New Jersey. It is a simple case of apples and oranges.

Islip to NYC is easily 1 hour and 30 minutes by car, and Los Angeles to Costa Mesa is 45 minutes by car..

KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-11-16 22:32:23 and read 5767 times.

Quoting N770WD (Reply 32):

#5 through #11 --

Las Vegas = 165,501 daily O&D
Boston = 106,974 (BOS) + 28,911 (PVD) + 21,016 (MHT) = 156,901
Miami = 99,061 (FLL) + 48,307 (MIA) = 147,368
Orlando = 143,497
Atlanta = 142,115
Dallas = 112,204 (DFW) + 23,693 (DAL) = 135,897
Phoenix = 123,128

Thanks for the info. Do you have a link? If your gonna include MHT and PVD for BOS, though, then adding ISP and HPN for NYC and PBI in for Miami would make things more fair. HPN/ISP and PBI are actually in the NYC and Miami metro areas, respectively. PVD/MHT are not in Boston's.

[Edited 2005-11-16 22:32:58]

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: N770WD
Posted 2005-11-16 22:59:18 and read 5710 times.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
Thanks for the info. Do you have a link?

I use Seabury APGdat, an airline planning tool. APGdat automates access to route and network information, sorting and presenting data for schedules, traffic, fares, loads, costs, etc. The domestic data can be pulled together manually if you have time on your hands. Go to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, www.transtats.bts.gov - Aviation library. Download the Airline Origin and Destination Survey (DB1B) which is a 10% sample of airline tickets for reporting carriers, providing origin and destination information, fare paid, class, distance, etc. Load the data into the database program of your choice. A little coding and you can pull the data you need.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):
If your gonna include MHT and PVD for BOS, though, then adding ISP and HPN for NYC and PBI in for Miami would make things more fair.

Fair enough, especially for ISP and HPN. PBI is a debate -- PBI is really its own catchment area and doesn't draw much from MIA.

PBI = 35,276
ISP = 11,059
HPN = 4,699

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Dartland
Posted 2005-11-16 23:11:18 and read 5680 times.

Actually, MHT and PVD are considered part of the Boston-Metropolitan area by the US Census, and definitely draw people from Boston as alternative airports, especially since they both have extensive WN service.

Also -- to some points above:
1) Timing to get to the airport is relative. 1.5 hours to ISP is not entirely accurate (it's less than an hour from parts of Queens). Besides, a metro area is decided by its passengers, not its location (maybe one would classify DEN as not metro-Denver since its so far out!)

2) Ellis Island is half NY, half NJ. It was entirely NY until NJ took it to court a number of years ago, and one the right to half of it (In reality, this means nothing since it is administered by the Federal Government and provides nothing to the states other than bragging rights).

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Lemurs
Posted 2005-11-17 02:29:15 and read 5068 times.

I know there is no scheduled service out of TEB, but the amount of private charter traffic that goes out of there is scary. I know VNY has almost twice as many movements, but I get the impression it's more real GA traffic than private O&D chartering. I know this is slight OT, but I've always marveled at how much real air traffic goes through TEB.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Letsgetwet
Posted 2005-11-17 04:30:14 and read 4475 times.

Thank You for settling this argument N770WD ! Nice job.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Blackhawk144
Posted 2005-11-17 04:44:29 and read 4405 times.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 37):
Islip to NYC is easily 1 hour and 30 minutes by car, and Los Angeles to Costa Mesa is 45 minutes by car..

IAD is a solid 1 hr. 30 mins. to 2 hours from Washington DC, I suppose you wouldn't count that?

Anthony

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Kahala777
Posted 2005-11-17 04:49:17 and read 4374 times.

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Reply 43):
IAD is a solid 1 hr. 30 mins. to 2 hours from Washington DC

What mode of transport do you have? A Ford?  yes 

KAHALA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: MAH4546
Posted 2005-11-17 04:49:20 and read 4373 times.

Quoting N770WD (Reply 39):
PBI is really its own catchment area and doesn't draw much from MIA.

Correct, it doesn't draw much from MIA. However, it draws a lot from FLL and visa-versa, probably in the same range that PVD draws from BOS.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: STT757
Posted 2005-11-17 04:56:01 and read 4344 times.

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Reply 43):
IAD is a solid 1 hr. 30 mins. to 2 hours from Washington DC, I suppose you wouldn't count that?

Not to start another argument but last February I wanted to visit the new Air and Space annex at IAD, I left my home in Central New Jersey at about 9Am on a Sunday Morning and it took me 2 hours 10 minutes to get to IAD.

I was lucky in that I didn't come across any Maryland State Police Speed traps, I drive alot between NJ and DC and Maryland is the trickiest part because of the "Smokies".

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-11-17 04:58:47 and read 4325 times.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 10):
Los Angeles Markets:

Burbank
Inyokern
LAX
Long Beach
Ontario
Orange County

If you are going to include IYK in those totals, you have to add in OXR, SBA, BFL and others. The main Los Angeles area airports are LAX, BUR, LGB, ONT and SNA, with LAX holding the lion's share of traffic. NYC has higher O&D total, LAX is the largest O&D airport in the world

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: AA777
Posted 2005-11-17 05:02:19 and read 4301 times.

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Reply 43):
IAD is a solid 1 hr. 30 mins. to 2 hours from Washington DC, I suppose you wouldn't count that?

It took me 35 minutes to get from IAD- to Washington DC today....... its 1.5 hours if you're in a traffic jam. Take it from a washingtonian who drives to IAD all the time from the city....

-AA777

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: DarthRandall
Posted 2005-11-17 05:06:11 and read 4273 times.

Tupac and Biggie are dead, people! Give it a rest already.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: SkyHigh777
Posted 2005-11-17 05:40:18 and read 4139 times.

IAD is not 1.5 hrs from Washington, DC. As stated, it takes about 35 minutes...but traffic can really get horrendous on the beltway. I live in Potomac, Maryland and it takes me about 45 minutes to get to IAD. It really isn't that far. BWI is also pretty convenient...but now I'm just getting off topic.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 46):
Not to start another argument but last February I wanted to visit the new Air and Space annex at IAD, I left my home in Central New Jersey at about 9Am on a Sunday Morning and it took me 2 hours 10 minutes to get to IAD.

I was lucky in that I didn't come across any Maryland State Police Speed traps, I drive alot between NJ and DC and Maryland is the trickiest part because of the "Smokies".

Ya...I drove up to philadelphia last weekend and it too me about 1.5 hours, not that far but those cops on I-95 near Baltimore are real nazis.

Anyway, the DC area is definately going through an exponential growth period, and the local airports (namely BWI and Dulles) are undergoing massive expansions and renovations. Hopefully this will attract more international carriers as well!!

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2005-11-17 06:00:23 and read 4067 times.

Quoting Kahala777 (Reply 33):

It has been said that for years Chicago is the Convention Capitol of the United States, it would seem as if that honor has been given to Las Vegas. It was remarked a few years back that Las Vegas was about the 8th busiest airport in the nation, and that almost 90% of that was due to O.D.

Table 7: Top 10 Airports Ranked by August 2005 Domestic Enplanements

Excel | CSV
Aug 2005 Rank Airport Name Aug 2005 Passengers Aug 2004 Rank Aug 2004 Passengers
1 Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta 3,378,841 1 3,282,232
2 Chicago O'Hare 2,796,345 2 2,891,814
3 Dallas-Ft. Worth 2,190,380 3 2,206,169
4 Los Angeles Int'l 2,027,961 4 2,079,366
5 Denver 1,886,324 5 1,876,152
6 Las Vegas McCarran 1,805,846 6 1,701,615
7 Phoenix Sky Harbor 1,637,056 7 1,563,150
8 Minneapolis-St.Paul 1,571,309 8 1,560,108
9 Seattle-Tacoma 1,402,611 9 1,409,082
10 Houston Bush Intercontinental 1,363,238 11 1,226,424

Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics, T-100 Domestic Market

According to this LAS is # 6 in the USA in terms of enplanements. 90% sounds about right, the only connecting is done on WN and HP, though still for the most part LAS is an O/D type of place. Yes, it does seem the conventioneers love it here.  Wink

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Rampart
Posted 2005-11-17 07:00:44 and read 4010 times.

I've been a LA metro resident (North Hollywood) and NY metro resident (Essex and Morris Counties in NJ), so I'm familiar with what might be considered the metro catchment for each. LA should include LAX, BUR, ONT, LGB, SNA, I've used all five, and one could probably include places like Chino and Palmdale, but those are almost always commuter traffic. I'd probably not include Palm Springs, Oxnard, and Inyokern and such, as they are their own special markets with little to offer to the LA metro traveler. (But watch Ryan Air end up in Southern California Logistics Airport and calling it "LA-Victorville" to attract passengers.  Wink )

New York markets would include JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, ISP, and SWF; I've used all those except ISP, but know students who happily drive 1.5 hours from New Jersey to catch a Southwest flight there. Trenton, even if part of the Philadelphia region, attracted some western NYC metro traffic when airlines like Eastwind and Shuttle America served there. The same would hold for Allentown, PA. Maybe Hartford is the same from the Connecticut side, but I'm less familiar with that. I'd shy away from including Atlantic City for the same reason I'd exclude Palm Springs.

Good airfares expand a an O&D catchment in interesting ways. That's why COS evolved into "metro Denver" thanks to WestPac.

My 2 centavos.

Rampart

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: BigB
Posted 2005-11-17 07:26:46 and read 3979 times.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 52):
New York markets would include JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, ISP, and SWF; I've used all those except ISP, but know students who happily drive 1.5 hours from New Jersey to catch a Southwest flight there. Trenton, even if part of the Philadelphia region, attracted some western NYC metro traffic when airlines like Eastwind and Shuttle America served there. The same would hold for Allentown, PA. Maybe Hartford is the same from the Connecticut side, but I'm less familiar with that. I'd shy away from including Atlantic City for the same reason I'd exclude Palm Springs.

depends where ya at in CT. Where I'm at, PVD or BDL are my main airports.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2005-11-17 09:22:04 and read 3935 times.

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 42):
Thank You for settling this argument N770WD ! Nice job.

Very nice. It was amazing how the "tone" changed as soon as you posted the numbers.

Thank you!

-Dave

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Travelin man
Posted 2005-11-17 18:46:09 and read 3810 times.

Quoting N770WD (Reply 32):
Las Vegas = 165,501 daily O&D
Boston = 106,974 (BOS) + 28,911 (PVD) + 21,016 (MHT) = 156,901
Miami = 99,061 (FLL) + 48,307 (MIA) = 147,368
Orlando = 143,497
Atlanta = 142,115
Dallas = 112,204 (DFW) + 23,693 (DAL) = 135,897
Phoenix = 123,128

And then a cluster between 80,000 and 120,000 daily.

I am surprised the Bay Area (SFO, OAK, SJC) is not up there.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Timz
Posted 2005-11-17 19:30:24 and read 3747 times.

Those O&D counts in reply 32-- they're international and domestic, total? Total of both ways, arriving plus departing? Daily average for the year ended 31 March 05?

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: N770WD
Posted 2005-11-17 19:55:44 and read 3702 times.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 55):
I am surprised the Bay Area (SFO, OAK, SJC) is not up there.

It should have been -- my apologies. No wonder Dulles looked high compared to the rest -- it's after SFO/SJC/OAK.

SFO 89,444
OAK 69,974
SJC 51,509
Total = 210,927

Quoting Timz (Reply 56):
Those O&D counts in reply 32-- they're international and domestic, total? Total of both ways, arriving plus departing? Daily average for the year ended 31 March 05?

Yes, though US flags for international service.

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: ModernArt
Posted 2005-11-17 20:22:45 and read 3668 times.

The numbers from post 32 seem inflated.

(NYC) 311,127 x 365 = 113.5 million

posted elsewhere that NYC handles approx 94 mil/pax per year.

What's the difference?

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Vega
Posted 2005-11-17 23:54:03 and read 3574 times.

O&D ORIGIN 1Q2005 (10% DOT Sample)
Domestic Only
"ATL","Atlanta, GA: Hartsfield-Jackson",648286
"BOS","Boston, MA: Logan International",486857
"BUR","Burbank, CA: Burbank Bob Hope",122471
"BWI","Baltimore, MD",363952
"CLE","Cleveland, OH: Hopkins International",177820
"CLT","Charlotte, NC: Douglas Municipal",156617
"DAL","Dallas, TX: Dallas Love Field",110183
"DCA","Washington, DC: Washington National",344547
"DEN","Denver, CO: Denver International",460750
"DFW","Dallas/Ft.Worth, TX",505540
"DTW","Detroit, MI: Detroit Metro Wayne County",354719
"EWR","Newark, NJ: Newark Liberty International",427808
"FLL","Fort Lauderdale, FL",482642
"HOU","Houston, TX: William P Hobby",142270
"IAD","Washington, DC: Dulles International",312743
"IAH","Houston, TX: Houston Intercontinental",298632
"JFK","New York, NY: Kennedy International",434732
"LAS","Las Vegas, NV: Mc Carran International",806776
"LAX","Los Angeles, CA: Los Angeles International",731791
"LGA","New York, NY: La Guardia",559950
"LGB","Long Beach, CA: Long Beach Daugherty Field",71932
"MCI","Kansas City, MO: Kansas City International",212807
"MCO","Orlando, FL: Orlando International",704131
"MDW","Chicago, IL: Chicago Midway",275556
"MIA","Miami, FL: Miami International",244778
"MKE","Milwaukee, WI: General Mitchell Field",132686
"MSP","Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN",367300
"MSY","New Orleans, LA",231487
"OAK","Oakland, CA",312110
"OME","Nome, AK: Nome Airport",1212
"ONT","Ontario/San Bernardino, CA",154392
"ORD","Chicago, IL: O Hare",681623
"PDX","Portland, OR: Portland International",245859
"PHL","Philadelphia, PA: Philadelphia International",431229
"PHX","Phoenix, AZ: Sky Harbor International",591093
"PIT","Pittsburgh, PA: Pittsburgh International",166282
"PVD","Providence, RI: Theodore Francis Green",132248
"RDU","Raleigh/Durham, NC: Raleigh Durham",192701
"SAN","San Diego, CA",358781
"SEA","Seattle, WA: Seattle/Tacoma International",457508
"SFO","San Francisco, CA: International",377939
"SJC","San Jose, CA: San Jose International",224357
"SLC","Salt Lake City, UT: Salt Lake International",224384
"SMF","Sacramento, CA: Sacramento Metropolitan",226585
"STL","St. Louis, MO: Lambert International",239802
"TPA","Tampa, FL: Tampa International",425466

O&D DESTINATION 1Q2005 (10% DOT Sample)
Domestic Only
"ATL","Atlanta, GA: Hartsfield-Jackson",654659
"BOS","Boston, MA: Logan International",494607
"BUR","Burbank, CA: Burbank Bob Hope",123049
"BWI","Baltimore, MD",365572
"CLE","Cleveland, OH: Hopkins International",178968
"CLT","Charlotte, NC: Douglas Municipal",156730
"DAL","Dallas, TX: Dallas Love Field",111402
"DCA","Washington, DC: Washington National",342638
"DEN","Denver, CO: Denver International",459768
"DFW","Dallas/Ft.Worth, TX",505136
"DTW","Detroit, MI: Detroit Metro Wayne County",357805
"EWR","Newark, NJ: Newark Liberty International",434332
"FLL","Fort Lauderdale, FL",478243
"HOU","Houston, TX: William P Hobby",142630
"IAD","Washington, DC: Dulles International",312469
"IAH","Houston, TX: Houston Intercontinental",298418
"JFK","New York, NY: Kennedy International",439181
"LAS","Las Vegas, NV: Mc Carran International",786154
"LAX","Los Angeles, CA: Los Angeles International",730155
"LGA","New York, NY: La Guardia",561271
"LGB","Long Beach, CA: Long Beach Daugherty Field",70802
"MCI","Kansas City, MO: Kansas City International",214020
"MCO","Orlando, FL: Orlando International",695907
"MDW","Chicago, IL: Chicago Midway",277055
"MIA","Miami, FL: Miami International",240819
"MKE","Milwaukee, WI: General Mitchell Field",134044
"MSP","Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN",369434
"MSY","New Orleans, LA",227745
"OAK","Oakland, CA",315245
"OME","Nome, AK: Nome Airport",1252
"ONT","Ontario/San Bernardino, CA",164791
"ORD","Chicago, IL: O Hare",683276
"PDX","Portland, OR: Portland International",247332
"PHL","Philadelphia, PA: Philadelphia International",432088
"PHX","Phoenix, AZ: Sky Harbor International",585084
"PIT","Pittsburgh, PA: Pittsburgh International",166019
"PVD","Providence, RI: Theodore Francis Green",134439
"RDU","Raleigh/Durham, NC: Raleigh Durham",194000
"SAN","San Diego, CA",368987
"SEA","Seattle, WA: Seattle/Tacoma International",458825
"SFO","San Francisco, CA: International",377432
"SJC","San Jose, CA: San Jose International",225063
"SLC","Salt Lake City, UT: Salt Lake International",222998
"SMF","Sacramento, CA: Sacramento Metropolitan",228667
"STL","St. Louis, MO: Lambert International",240306
"TPA","Tampa, FL: Tampa International",422168

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Timz
Posted 2005-11-18 00:10:27 and read 3552 times.

So you multiply those figures by ten to get the domestic origin-or-destination total for the 90-day period?

Topic: RE: Largest "Market" In US
Username: Vega
Posted 2005-11-18 00:37:15 and read 3523 times.

Quoting Timz (Reply 60):
So you multiply those figures by ten to get the domestic origin-or-destination total for the 90-day period?

I think the DOT is even confused about these numbers. My suggestion is to use them only as a "relative" relationship between airports/cities. For example BOS had about 75% of the Domestic O&D of ATL for 1Qtr 2005, based on a 10% sample. Multiplying each # x 10 could result in a misleading result because of seasonality differences.


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