Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2470544/

Topic: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-12-04 15:44:17 and read 10616 times.

Since Lufthansa was a late A330 customer I was wondering will the A330-300 replace much of the older A340-300s ?
I believe that the A330 is a better plane to be used on routes like FRA-EWR or FRA-JFK and other destinations at the US east coast than the A340-300.
Will the A330 make the A340 obsolete on these routes. The A340 is fine on longer routes that can not be served with the A330-300 e.g. the West Coast and Asia but these routes also see the A340-600 and 747-400.
Will LH phase out some of their A340-300s soon as long as they can sell them for a good price. LH has a very good history of selling their aircrafts to a very good price.
I believe one A340 was taken over by Namibia some weeks ago, don´t know if this was an ex Sabena or Swiss aircraft.

Sorry if this has been discused before....

[Edited 2005-12-04 15:45:04]

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2005-12-04 15:59:29 and read 10569 times.

First, the A340s going to Air Namibia are ex-Sabena aircraft (very early build A343s) that LH had been leasing due to a shortage of longhaul equipment. LH is also flying a handful of ex-SN A332s that will eventually leave the fleet.

LH was late in acquiring a longhaul highcapacity twin jet....the A333s have taken over some routes that were once flown by the A343s and are now regulars on services from Germany to the US. LH is a large A346 operator, with more of the type on order, and the A346 has replaced 742s and A343s on some routes. While it is true that the A343 is being squeezed on both ends by newer models, the A333 on side and the A346 on the other, I strongly think that the type will remain in the LH fleet for many years to come flying lower demand longhaul routes and some tranatlantic type routes. LH is not likely to add to its A343 fleet, but the current fleet is rather young, has many years of flying left, and while the A343 sometimes takes some abuse here at a.net, its a very versatile airliner. The A343 is a good choice to launch new routes out of LH's developing Munich hub for example.

LH has phased out its A342s in recent years....these were early build examples and the A343, with its extra 32 seats, simply makes more sense for the missions that the first generation A340s fly for LH.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-12-04 16:21:42 and read 10506 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
While it is true that the A343 is being squeezed on both ends by newer models, the A333 on side and the A346 on the other, I strongly think that the type will remain in the LH fleet for many years to come flying lower demand longhaul routes and some tranatlantic type routes. LH is not likely to add to its A343 fleet, but the current fleet is rather young, has many years of flying left, and while the A343 sometimes takes some abuse here at a.net, its a very versatile airliner. The A343 is a good choice to launch new routes out of LH's developing Munich hub for example.

First of all I think the A340 is a great looking aircraft and my favorite airliner around, I know about the abuse here on a.net but that was not what I had in mind as I was I opening this thread.
I also do believe that the A340 will stay in LHs fleet for awhile but as you said it is squeezed on both ends. Lufthansa seems to be more than satisfied with the operation costs and performance of the A330.
I was not saying that LH will replace all its A340-300s with A340-600s and A330s. But due to the fact that LH has 29 A340-300s (the largest operator of that type I believe) I was wondering if it would not make sense for LH to replace some of their A343s with A333s.
The idea of replacing some A343s with A333s came to my mind some weeks ago as I was reading that Lufthansa will change their New York flights from Frankfurt from A340 to A330. Since I travelled a lot on these flights on A340s andregarding that these are at least 2 or 3 daily flights from FRA to JFK and EWR I was wondering what they will do with the A340s being used there before.
What I forgot while posting is that LH wants to expand from MUC so that is where the A340s will go.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: IMatAMS
Posted 2005-12-04 17:48:52 and read 10317 times.

If indeed those 2 ex-sabena 343's are gone it's a very wise thing to do for LH I think. Those aircraft were really good to scare people away to the competition. I had the 'pleasure' of being on them FRA-YVR and back and they made me avoid LH if I can..

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: JetMaster
Posted 2005-12-04 17:54:01 and read 10298 times.

Quoting IMatAMS (Reply 3):
I had the 'pleasure' of being on them FRA-YVR and back and they made me avoid LH if I can..

How exactly were they worse than any of LH's regular sub-standard equipped aircraft?


Regards,
JM

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: PM
Posted 2005-12-04 17:58:26 and read 10282 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
The A343 is a good choice to launch new routes out of LH's developing Munich hub for example.

I had to go to China last week (LH 744 FRA-PEK) and among my return options were LH with an A343 from PEK to MUC. Alas, I had to change my plans and come home from Japan where I also missed an LH A346 from Osaka. (I got a 9-abreast and noisy KLM 772ER instead.)

But that kind of route - MUC-PEK-MUC - is surely where the A343 still scores over the A333. Could an A333 do that route?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: RJ111
Posted 2005-12-04 18:09:29 and read 10245 times.

The A343 is inefficient on short/medium routes but efficient on long routes. The A333 is efficient on short/medium but can't do long routes. So maybe LH will replace the A343 on routes such as NYC, and then expand with or sell the replaced A343's.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: AY104
Posted 2005-12-04 18:11:45 and read 10238 times.

I thought - correct me if I am wrong - that from a customer service standpoint, ie comfort, size of cabin etc, that the A330 and A340 were identical except for the number of engines. I know some airlines, for example SAS have the identical number of seats/configuration for both aircraft. I also flew on both with Air Canada, and the only difference other that the number of engines was that the J-class section on the A330 was a few rows larger. I realize the difference in range between the 2, but as far as comfort goes they are the same. The A330 does LHR YVR nonstop, that is about 9 1/2 hrs, and I imagine more economical that the A340.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-12-04 20:16:44 and read 10078 times.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
The A343 is inefficient on short/medium routes but efficient on long routes. The A333 is efficient on short/medium but can't do long routes. So maybe LH will replace the A343 on routes such as NYC, and then expand with or sell the replaced A343's.

That was exactly my idea. The A333 is more efficient than the A343 on some routes that have been served or are now served with the A343.
Of course there are some routes that need the range of the A343 and don´t justify the extra capacity of the A346 or 744 so that is why the A343 is not obsolete for LH, but I was wondering if they still need that large fleet of A343s -especially if you also add the fleet of Swiss to LHs fleet.
Lufthansas A343s are now at least ten years old I was thinking if it would not make sense to sell some of these now when they could get a good deal for them. Regarding the fact that ex-LH planes always sell like hot cake on the second hand market.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2005-12-04 20:27:50 and read 10044 times.

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):

That was exactly my idea. The A333 is more efficient than the A343 on some routes that have been served or are now served with the A343.

Lufthansas A343s are now at least ten years old I was thinking if it would not make sense to sell some of these now when they could get a good deal for them. Regarding the fact that ex-LH planes always sell like hot cake on the second hand market.

For various reasons, I do not think that LH will do an early retirement of all or part of its A343 fleet......while the A333 may be more effecient that the A343 on certain missions, the costs of replacing the still young A343s with new A333s would be huge. Also consider that the second hand market for the A343 is not that strong and finding new users for 20+ A343s at this point in time would be difficult. Look how long it took Boeing to place the ex-SQ A343s, as an example.

There were rumors suggesting that some LH A343s may be transferred to Swiss in the near-term future, but beyond that, I dont think that LH will take the financial risk at this time of swapping A343s for A333s. The same is basically true over at AF.....AF also has a signficant A343 fleet now squeezed inbetween its new A332s and 772ERs, but AF is also not doing anything dramatic and retains the A343 for longer thin routes.

In the future, we are likely to see LH take a good hard look at the A350 and 787 as an A330/340 replacement in the long term.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Columba
Posted 2005-12-04 20:37:54 and read 10007 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 9):
In the future, we are likely to see LH take a good hard look at the A350 and 787 as an A330/340 replacement in the long term.

They already do  Wink But it is not that urgent as it is with other carriers looking for a replacement. I have mentioned this above but LH is one of the few airlines where I could think of a mixed 787/A350 order........

Would the A343 make a good freighter for Lufthansa cargo ?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2005-12-04 21:14:16 and read 9938 times.

Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
Would the A343 make a good freighter for Lufthansa cargo ?

I dont think so.....and LH Cargo needs are already covered by their rather large fleet of MD11Fs.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-12-04 21:15:55 and read 9930 times.

While I agree that the 343 will not a good freighter make, LH Cargo's needs are far from covered.

LH was furious at Boeing for cancelling the M11F right away, and has been on the constant lookout for more frames.

N

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Dutchjet
Posted 2005-12-04 21:19:57 and read 9913 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
While I agree that the 343 will not a good freighter make, LH Cargo's needs are far from covered.

LH was furious at Boeing for cancelling the M11F right away, and has been on the constant lookout for more frames.

N

Absolutely correct, my bad with respect to the use of the word "covered"....I meant that LH uses the MD11F for its cargo needs and, you are of course correct that LH was very annoyed with Boeing for cancelling the MD11 program...LH was interested in acquiring more of the type.

There were rumors at one time that LH is taking a look at the 777F as its next dedicated freigher, any news on that issue?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: FlyinTLow
Posted 2005-12-04 21:24:00 and read 9903 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
While I agree that the 343 will not a good freighter make, LH Cargo's needs are far from covered.

LH was furious at Boeing for cancelling the M11F right away, and has been on the constant lookout for more frames.

I remember reading that LH agreed to not further expand their cargo operations anymore but keep it at the size it currently is. Don't know why. Just what I remember reading...

Cheers,
Thilo

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: BA319-131
Posted 2005-12-04 21:38:43 and read 9858 times.

Quoting PM (Reply 5):
I got a 9-abreast and noisy KLM 772ER instead

- Sorry, I found that very funny!! Smile The 777 is a noisy plane, whilst it may be economical, I hate them, give me a 330/340 anytime, far quieter and better cabin config due to fuselage width.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: IMatAMS
Posted 2005-12-04 21:47:28 and read 9825 times.

Quoting JetMaster (Reply 4):
How exactly were they worse than any of LH's regular sub-standard equipped aircraft?

No idea, was my first (and hopefully last) time on LH longhaul. rock-hard, limited-recline seats with no head-support whatsoever. Rediculous seat-pitch.. At least from A.net pics the regular LH interior looks a liitle better than those ones.

IM

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: CRJ900
Posted 2005-12-04 21:59:11 and read 9802 times.

LH has been flying its 343s on medium-hauls too, like FRA-THR and FRA-Almaty. I have read in aviation mags that the 343's "saving grace" is its very low operating costs and low emissions - making it very economical on most routes... if they were not, LH and AF would have disposed of them years ago.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2005-12-04 22:04:59 and read 9786 times.

Quoting IMatAMS (Reply 16):
No idea, was my first (and hopefully last) time on LH longhaul. rock-hard, limited-recline seats with no head-support whatsoever. Rediculous seat-pitch.. At least from A.net pics the regular LH interior looks a liitle better than those ones.

Are those only the 2 ex-Sabena aircraft that you are referring to?

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Matt
Posted 2005-12-05 02:15:11 and read 9630 times.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 18):
Are those only the 2 ex-Sabena aircraft that you are referring to?

Yes, these two ex-Sabena aircraft were flown (at least until they were recently retired) mostly from FRA to YYZ and YVR. I had the "pleasure" of flying on one of them in April, and it was just awful. As IMatAMS mentionned, the seat pitch was awful, the seats were hard (and did not have the typical LH look), etc. While chatting with the flight crew in the back galley, I learned that these 2 aircraft were also despised the the crew as well for their lack of commonality and comfort comparted to the other 343s. According to them, passengers often complained about those 2 aircraft.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: ACDC8
Posted 2005-12-05 02:20:27 and read 9619 times.

Quoting Matt (Reply 19):
Yes, these two ex-Sabena aircraft were flown (at least until they were recently retired) mostly from FRA to YYZ and YVR. I had the "pleasure" of flying on one of them in April, and it was just awful. As IMatAMS mentionned, the seat pitch was awful, the seats were hard (and did not have the typical LH look), etc. While chatting with the flight crew in the back galley, I learned that these 2 aircraft were also despised the the crew as well for their lack of commonality and comfort comparted to the other 343s. According to them, passengers often complained about those 2 aircraft

Interesting. I guess I've been lucky then, all the A340 flights I've had, have been on between YVR-FRA have been on original LH airframes. Thanks for pointing that out. I assumed thats what IMatAMS meant, I wasn't sure though.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: AC787
Posted 2005-12-05 03:31:31 and read 9546 times.

Is it possible that some of these LH343's will make there way to Swiss? It wouls allow swiss to make some of there long haul flights daily and allow them to expand there long haul network out of zurich. I'm not sure what LH's plans are with respect to zurich expanding but it would be nice to see zurich gaining more flights. I like Munich but have always just loved flying through and too zurich, and more routes would make that even more likely.

AC787

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-12-05 03:44:09 and read 9532 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
LH was furious at Boeing for cancelling the M11F right away



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
you are of course correct that LH was very annoyed with Boeing for cancelling the MD11 program...LH was interested in acquiring more of the type.

It was Lufthansa's fault for not ordering more when they had a chance

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2005-12-05 04:31:21 and read 9473 times.

Quoting Matt (Reply 19):
Yes, these two ex-Sabena aircraft were flown (at least until they were recently retired) mostly from FRA to YYZ and YVR.

I flew the 343 as Sabena and I can tell you that it was a bad experience as an introduction to the type. Afterward, I had a very negative view of the 340 which makes me laugh when i hear how the 777 is less comfortable from some people. What people are really saying is that the way that their airlines of choice equips the 340 is comfortable, because Sabena demonstrated that you can make any plane a nightmare, even the "prefered" 340. Their older 747s were more comfortable by comparison, even at 3-4-3, and the 777s I flew on with DL around the same time were dreams by comparison at 2-5-2 with nothing special going for them other than not being a Sabena 343!

And the only thing worse than the Sabena 343 was the Sobelair 763 I connected to. I generally like the 767 as a pax if the plane has a newer interior, but on Sobelair, it was horrible.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: WhiteHatter
Posted 2005-12-05 04:45:55 and read 9401 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 22):
It was Lufthansa's fault for not ordering more when they had a chance

ordering aircraft you don't need is a guaranteed way of going bust. LH wanted more MD-11F frames when they did a rework of their cargo business, and the last ones were ordered well in advance of the shutdown. The MD-11F then became their largest aircraft as they decided to move away from the 742F due to changes in their freight business.

So your comment is incorrect. They ordered what they needed, but the need changed. That's not the same. Shame though.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Lp0815
Posted 2005-12-05 10:46:02 and read 8245 times.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 13):
There were rumors at one time that LH is taking a look at the 777F as its next dedicated freigher, any news on that issue?

No news really, LH Cargo has been eyeing the 777F, 748F and also 380F but no decision will be taken before 2008/2009.

Tendencies move from 777 to 747 back and forth, also the 380F is considered; outcome is too far in the future to be somewhat predictable.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: Texdravid
Posted 2005-12-05 22:57:25 and read 7004 times.

Having flown LH many times over the years, I can say that the A330 is as good or better than the A340 in terms of comfort and quiet cruising.

The range of the A330 is nothing to sneeze at either, as LH uses it for FRA-DFW-FRA route during the winter. It has the new business seats and for $29 you can use the internet throughout the flight. What more can you ask for?
Lie flat seats, internet, and two awesome meals. THE only way to fly from DFW or IAH to Europe and beyond to India.

Topic: RE: Lufthansa A340-300 Vs A330-300
Username: IMatAMS
Posted 2005-12-05 23:12:43 and read 6977 times.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 20):
Interesting. I guess I've been lucky then, all the A340 flights I've had, have been on between YVR-FRA have been on original LH airframes. Thanks for pointing that out. I assumed thats what IMatAMS meant, I wasn't sure though.

I recall reading on this forum that they were moved to another route later, before, apparently, being sold now, so maybe you 'missed' them.
I wonder why LH didn't bother to change the interior. While it saves a few bucks, putting people through an 11-hour flight on those seats really scares people away from LH, even tough it's only 2 aircraft. I know it did that to me, even though I know those A/C were 'irregular', and many others don't and just assume thats how LH is. Bad and very customer-unfriendly move by LH..

IM


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/