Print from Airliners.net discussion forum
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2491820/

Topic: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Eugdog
Posted 2005-12-14 20:53:30 and read 22987 times.

The A340 cabin is significantly inferior to the Boeing 777. The floor is unusually high to improve cargo capacity. this makes the cabin rather cramped especially for window seated passengers. This is because the wall of the cabin curves inwards. It is like being in a small cylinder

The 777 cabin is much more spacious. As well as its it innovative cieling and the brilliantly designed overhead bins the walls are almost vertical.

These things matter on a long haul flight - I hope for Airbus sake that they can improve the sense of spaciousness on the A350. The 787 (if the Boeing pictures are to be believed) are going to ceiling leading to the top of the roof of the plane. The 787 could have a decisive edge on passenger appeal. Nornally this is not very important (the superior cabin of the a320 has not given it a decisive edge over the 737s). But for long haul flights the significantly better cabin of the 787 could be a huge selling point for Boeing. I also understand the the 787 will have a more humid atmosphere and lower cabin pressure. This could be very critcal for long haul especially for business travellers

The A330/340 seems to be a poor design choice - the fuselarge is too narrow making it useless as a frieghter. It also makes it difficult to stretched without significant strenghtening of the structure which causes a large wieght penalty- I think this is the reason why the economics of the stretched A340 cannot match that of the 777s

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Stitch
Posted 2005-12-14 20:56:15 and read 22968 times.

I just don't think most customers care what the inside of the plane looks like, to be honest. They care about seating, IFE, and service and in those areas, an A340 is as effective as a 777 and with some 1000 orders for the A330/A340/A50, the design is obviously not that bad.  Wink

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: HS748
Posted 2005-12-14 20:59:42 and read 22942 times.

How many passengers (other than a.netters) give a toss about what aircraft they fly? I certainly can't see any airline making multi-billion dollar investment decisions based on how window passengers in economy class feel.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Eugdog
Posted 2005-12-14 21:19:16 and read 22865 times.

I agree that cabin size did not matter in the past. This is because cabins were very similar on Boeing and Airbus. This has all changed! The Boeing 787 having such a vastly superior cabin and the higher cabin temperature and humidiy this could really be a major selling point.

Imagine if you are business travellor facing a long haul flight - surely you would try to go on 787 then a more conventional aircraft with its low cabin pressure and very dry air. You would arrive at you business destination so much fresher and ready to do business!!!!

Cabin conditions do matter - why have airlines spend £1000s per seat on IFE it passengers did not give a toss

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-12-14 21:30:10 and read 22819 times.

Quoting HS748 (Reply 2):
How many passengers (other than a.netters) give a toss about what aircraft they fly? I certainly can't see any airline making multi-billion dollar investment decisions based on how window passengers in economy class feel.

It doesn't matter so much for the normal 8 across seating in an A340, but 9 across would be rather unpleasant because of the curvature of the fuselage.

It has been apparent for some time that the 787 cross section is a very smart design, particularly when combined with the reduced spacing between cabin wall and fuselage made possible by various characteristics of the composite barrell sections that make up the 787 fuselage.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BA319-131
Posted 2005-12-14 21:39:02 and read 22788 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A330/340 seems to be a poor design choice - the fuselarge is too narrow making it useless as a frieghter

-What? The fuselage is the same width as the A300/A310 which are excellent freighters.........

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: IRelayer
Posted 2005-12-14 21:48:36 and read 22742 times.

It goes the other way too, let's remember. Airbus constantly touts the A32X's wider cabin width as an advantage over 737NG's. It is not an argument that is totally without merit...

-IR

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Zone1
Posted 2005-12-14 21:58:18 and read 22675 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
especially for window seated passengers. This is because the wall of the cabin curves inwards. It is like being in a small cylinder

This is the price you have to pay for 2-3-2 versus 3-3-3 seating.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Keesje
Posted 2005-12-14 22:04:56 and read 22630 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A340 cabin is significantly inferior to the Boeing 777. The floor is unusually high to improve cargo capacity

 covereyes 

It it the right size for economy class 2-4-2 (max. one passenger away from the aisle), business 2-2-2 (no middle seats) and first 1-2-1 (everyone an aisle seat).

The standard cargo containers fit in needly side by side.

Boeing first tried 7 abreast on the 767 then 9 abreast on the 777 and then developed the all new 787, 4 inch wider the A300/30/40/50..

Draw your conclusions.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Birdwatching
Posted 2005-12-14 22:07:43 and read 22604 times.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TGV
Posted 2005-12-14 22:08:25 and read 22599 times.

A340/330 : 2-4-2 seating,
B777: 3-3-3 seating.

For me there is no discussion: give me a A340/330 anyday. I like window seats, but "double excuse seat" are horrible.

Furthermore the larger the cabin, the more people, and the more noise ! So better to have rows of 8 than rows of 9.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Tjr16698
Posted 2005-12-14 22:12:53 and read 22566 times.

Must admit never to have felt particularly uncomfortable on A340s, and always aim for a window seat. There may be a difference compared to the 777, but to be honest I've not noticed.
Additionally, I agree with HS that the vast majority of passengers don't even know what they are flying in, so it's hardly likely to make a difference anyway. I recently asked someone, after they returned from a longhaul VIRGIN flight, what plane they flew on, and they said "not sure, had 2 engines"........

b.t.w. for someone feeling a little low on irony, i do know how many engines VS planes celebrate having..
all the best

TJR

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Jaysit
Posted 2005-12-14 22:13:54 and read 22559 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Reply 3):
Imagine if you are business travellor facing a long haul flight - surely you would try to go on 787 then a more conventional aircraft with its low cabin pressure and very dry air. You would arrive at you business destination so much fresher and ready to do business!!!!

Tripe.

You base your travels on the airline, not the airplane. Your status with the carrier, its frequencies, and convenience. I doubt if the average Business traveller will switch from a BA 777 to say, for example, a Kuwait Airways 787 for the 1% higher cabin humidity, and the lofty airiness of the 787's ceiling.

As for economy passengers, I find the A340/A330s to be superior to the 777 in terms of creature comforts (all things like seat pitch especially, being equal). The 2-4-2 beats the 3-3-3 or the hideous 2-5-2 any day. I'm 6ft 2 and I sure as hell don't care if the ceiling slopes, but I find being trapped in a center 5 seat section, sheer torture.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BA319-131
Posted 2005-12-14 22:20:23 and read 22516 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Reply 3):
Imagine if you are business travellor facing a long haul flight - surely you would try to go on 787 then a more conventional aircraft with its low cabin pressure and very dry air. You would arrive at you business destination so much fresher and ready to do business!!!!

-Given the choice, most Business Travellers will travel the with the airline they prefer, not the airplane.

Quoting TGV (Reply 10):
For me there is no discussion: give me a A340/330 anyday. I like window seats, but "double excuse seat" are horrible.

-Same here! And the 777 is just a noisy plane, hopefully the 787 will be better.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Scorpio
Posted 2005-12-14 22:21:13 and read 22510 times.

What exactly was the intent of this thread, cause I don't get it?

Anyway..

The 777 indeed has a wider cabin, which may be important to some. But on the other hand, the A330/340's more narrow cabin means the chance of ending up in a middle seat is quite a bit lower, which also mean a great deal to many people, so I guess they pretty much cancel each other out.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
I also understand the the 787 will have a more humid atmosphere and lower cabin pressure.

So will the A350.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A330/340 seems to be a poor design choice

Yeah that explain why almost 1,000 of them have been sold  Yeah sure

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
the fuselarge is too narrow making it useless as a frieghter.

LOL! Useless as a freighter??? Have you taken a look at the bucketloads of A300s and A310s flying around as freighters? Well, they have the SAME 'useless' fuselage diameter...

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Usa1984
Posted 2005-12-14 22:58:03 and read 22368 times.

i think the A340 cabin is great. it is actually my favorite cabin in the sky. the newer cabin version features many clever design choices that are distinctly european.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Cxsjr
Posted 2005-12-14 23:19:10 and read 22291 times.

I have to say that the first time I noticed this was earlier this week.

I flew out to JFK on a KLM 777 and sat in row 11, second row in economy. Getting a wing and engine view picture was quite easy with a wide angle lens.

However, coming back, we flew on KLM's latest A330, (... AOC, only 3 weeks old) and trying to get a wing and engine view form the front row of economy was a nightmare. I then realised that the windows in the A330 (and thus the A340) are more tilted upwards than the B777.

Thanks to you EugDog ... your thread now explains the reason for this - higher floors!

I have to say I'm on the wall with this one. 'A' seems to be far superior in terms of cabin noise but 'B' has a more comfortable cabin from the point of bins, windows etc, basically anything the airline doesn't influence.

I wonder why Airbus have copied Boeing with the contoured 777 style bins? - it certainly makes a vast improvement!

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2005-12-14 23:19:40 and read 22288 times.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Boeing first tried 7 abreast on the 767 then 9 abreast on the 777 and then developed the all new 787, 4 inch wider the A300/30/40/50..

I thought it's 14 inches wider.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Wdleiser
Posted 2005-12-14 23:21:30 and read 22276 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Reply 3):
I agree that cabin size did not matter in the past. This is because cabins were very similar on Boeing and Airbus. This has all changed! The Boeing 787 having such a vastly superior cabin and the higher cabin temperature and humidiy this could really be a major selling point.

I think it is absolutely insane to have a warmer cabin. I get hot easily, and it is very hard to get cooler in an aircraft without pissing off some of the other passengers. I dont believe 300 people want to see me sitting in the nude. When you have a cooler cabin you are able to put on a blanket to stay comfortable. Now warmer plus more humid.... if you want heat and humid I invite you to Houston during any time of the year. You will quickly see high humidy + heat = miserable!

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-12-14 23:26:56 and read 22248 times.

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 18):
I think it is absolutely insane to have a warmer cabin. I get hot easily, and it is very hard to get cooler in an aircraft without pissing off some of the other passengers. I dont believe 300 people want to see me sitting in the nude. When you have a cooler cabin you are able to put on a blanket to stay comfortable. Now warmer plus more humid.... if you want heat and humid I invite you to Houston during any time of the year. You will quickly see high humidy + heat = miserable!

I agree we don't want to see you nude. However, since he incorrectly said higher cabin temperature when he should have said higher cabin pressure, we hopefully won't have to endure your nakedness.  Wink

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BA319-131
Posted 2005-12-14 23:27:11 and read 22247 times.

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 18):
I think it is absolutely insane to have a warmer cabin. I get hot easily

- I agree, and I also get hot easily. There is nothing worse than getting hot and sticky on a plane.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Scbriml
Posted 2005-12-14 23:42:51 and read 22187 times.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
some 1000 orders for the A330/A340/A50

Airbus has sold nearly 2,000 planes with this fuselage cross-section, so there's no way it can be considered a failure.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Killjoy
Posted 2005-12-14 23:50:22 and read 22147 times.

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 20):
There is nothing worse than getting hot and sticky on a plane.

Depends on the situation, of course...

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A330/340 seems to be a poor design choice - the fuselarge is too narrow making it useless as a frieghter.

I thought they were "bad" at carrying freight due to MTOW-limitations, not width issues?

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: AJRfromSYR
Posted 2005-12-14 23:53:22 and read 22120 times.

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 18):
Now warmer plus more humid.... if you want heat and humid I invite you to Houston during any time of the year. You will quickly see high humidy + heat = miserable!

I think we are comparing 0% humidity to 15% or so... your thinking 100%. Stop over reacting.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Fanoftristars
Posted 2005-12-15 00:04:40 and read 22085 times.

Here are some great photos of how the airframes compare. First, this is the photo of the 764 and how the shoulder room is compared to the Airbus. The second photo shows the 777 with the A340 cross section built inside. Very interesting.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Craig Murray



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Royal S King



I've only ever flown the Airbus in Business class, and to be honest, I never noticed any lack of room, but then again, it was business class...

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-12-15 00:32:00 and read 21998 times.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Boeing first tried 7 abreast on the 767 then 9 abreast on the 777 and then developed the all new 787, 4 inch wider the A300/30/40/50..

Draw your conclusions.

Well they made in 4 inch wider on the outside because they could make it much wider on the inside. The 787 is a plane designed to straddle the 8 across and 9 across space, just as the 777 was designed to straddle the 9 across and 10 across space.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2005-12-15 00:35:52 and read 21974 times.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Boeing first tried 7 abreast on the 767 then 9 abreast on the 777 and then developed the all new 787, 4 inch wider the A300/30/40/50..

Draw your conclusions.

The conclusion I draw is that Boeing optimizes the fuselage to fit the mission as opposed to Airbus' "one size fits all' approach.

Which appraoch is winning in the market place?

Draw your conclusions.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: NorCal
Posted 2005-12-15 00:44:47 and read 21935 times.

I have never been in a 330/340 cabin so I won't pass judgement, but I think the proper statement should be that the 330 fuselage is sinking the 340-600. All the extra weight needed to keep that long thin tube straight and stiff makes it so heavy and consequently (along with being 4 engines) inferior to the 773ER.

The beauty of the airbus approach though is that they save a lot of money in tooling and if one product stops selling they don't have to shut down production.

I have ridden on a 777 before and I loved the experience. Very spacious and nice cabin. Not to mention how cool those bins are.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Gr8Circle
Posted 2005-12-15 00:51:18 and read 21916 times.

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 6):
It goes the other way too, let's remember. Airbus constantly touts the A32X's wider cabin width as an advantage over 737NG's. It is not an argument that is totally without merit...

Absolutely justified they are!! Airbus, I mean....the A320 is a MUCH more comfortable aircraft.....I've only flown on the 737-700 and I found it to be extremely claustrophobic.... yuck 

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: DfwRevolution
Posted 2005-12-15 00:59:52 and read 21886 times.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Boeing first tried 7 abreast on the 767 then 9 abreast on the 777

With all due respect, it only takes a look at the A346 structural efficency to wonder why Boeing opted for a wider 777 fuselage. More to the point, Boeing followed customer's request (namely CX) for a wider cabin during the Working Together confrences.

BoomBoom is absolutely correct.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Boeing first tried 7 abreast on the 767 then 9 abreast on the 777 and then developed the all new 787, 4 inch wider the A300/30/40/50..

Quite a bit more than 4 inches, and the extra space was cited as a deciding factor by AI. The 787's wider fuselage maximizes revenue cargo hold and passenger floor space by allocating crew rest to the crown area.

I would hardly call the 220-in fuselage perfect.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Dalecary
Posted 2005-12-15 01:12:55 and read 21830 times.

9 abreast in the 787 v 8 abreast in the 330/350 was a telling factor in the QF/JQ order.
It's all about revenue potential for the airline.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2005-12-15 01:20:09 and read 21774 times.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 28):
Absolutely justified they are!! Airbus, I mean....the A320 is a MUCH more comfortable aircraft.....I've only flown on the 737-700 and I found it to be extremely claustrophobic.... yuck

For years I flew on A320s without ever realizing they are a whopping 5 inches wider inside at seat level. Thats less than one inch per seat. It's not enough to really notice.

The truth is, if the plane is full, like most are today, both planes are extremely claustrophobic....

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Arcano
Posted 2005-12-15 01:24:51 and read 21760 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The 777 cabin is much more spacious. As well as its it innovative cieling and the brilliantly designed overhead bins the walls are almost vertical.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
I just don't think most customers care what the inside of the plane looks like, to be honest

I care!, Although I define myself as very pro-boeing, the so famous curved cieling impressed me nothing, and it didn't feel any more room than the 343

Quoting TGV (Reply 10):
B777: 3-3-3 seating.

Agree, but under the 2-5-2 plan (as AA), you only have 1 "double excuse" seating, and more capacity.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Trex8
Posted 2005-12-15 01:44:17 and read 21692 times.

I spend far more time in 777s than A330/340s by far as I am a UA regular but I can say that I prefer the A330/340 cabin. The height thing doesn't do anything for me esp when it stops you from opening a closed overhead bin in the center while standing in the aisle on 2-5-2 cabins.Besides who stands up for more than a few minutes in a flight!

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: NW727251ADV
Posted 2005-12-15 01:58:13 and read 21650 times.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Boeing followed customer's request (namely CX) for a wider cabin during the Working Together confrences

Once again you have come to the rescue. I agree with you a lot more often than not. And to be honest, you are the FIRST person other than me that I can recall bringing up this point.

I stated this in another thread a little while back when the same fools were saying "I prefer the A330 8-abreast to the crammed and uncomfortable 777 9- or 10-abreast...I don't know why Boeing did that". And my response was, Boeing only did what AIRLINES asked them to do. It was the AIRLINES who DEMANDED that Boeing make a fuselage wider than the 767 and DC-10 and L-1011. When Boeing was originally designing the 777 they wanted to make a cabin slightly wider than the 767. The AIRLINES said HELL NO, try again. Now that Boeing has done what the AIRLINES wanted, you get the passenger who always try to argue the "Prisoner In The Middle 5th" situation. The way A.netters on here talk one would think that EVERYTIME on of them flew on a 777 they were in the middle seat. They always try to use that to argue why the A330/340 is better but odds are MOST of these people have been fortunate enough that they usually dont get the middle seat. You throw the middle seat out of the equation and the 777 wins in comfort hands down.

Dont get mad at Boeing for its cabin layout, blame CX, BA, UA, QF, JL, and countless others. Boeing only did what they were demanded to do.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Abba
Posted 2005-12-15 02:14:59 and read 21597 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Reply 3):
The Boeing 787 having such a vastly superior cabin and the higher cabin temperature and humidiy this could really be a major selling point.

I have been on a few flights where cabin temprature was a problem - not becaue it was too low....

Quoting Tjr16698 (Reply 11):
what plane they flew on, and they said "not sure, had 2 engines"........

And your next questions should be: "On each wing?"

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
The 2-4-2 beats the 3-3-3 or the hideous 2-5-2 any day

Or even worse 3-4-3 as on TG.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 17):
I thought it's 14 inches wider.

To allow for one more seat in an 2-5-2 layout for the time being. Sure - this plane is potential nightmare on its way. Interresting to see what will happen when (rather than if) international regulations concerning minium space for pax are applied!

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 31):
The truth is, if the plane is full, like most are today, both planes are extremely claustrophobic....

In particular the 777 with 10 abrest and no doubt also the 787 with 9. NOTHING in the world is as bad as 10 abrest in a 777 on a long trip.

Abba

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2005-12-15 02:20:44 and read 21578 times.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 34):
Boeing only did what AIRLINES asked them to do. It was the AIRLINES who DEMANDED that Boeing make a fuselage wider than the 767 and DC-10 and L-1011

Exactly right. And a lot of people seem to forget, it's the airlines who purchase the planes not the passengers. It's the airlines that configure the planes not Boeing. There may be a few pax that choose their flights on the basis of the type of aircraft, but I'm sure it's not many.

Also, some airlines (CO, DL) configure their 777 business class with six across, that must be very roomy.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Del...elta_Airlines_Boeing_777-200_B.php

[Edited 2005-12-15 02:25:00]

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-12-15 02:23:24 and read 21566 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A330/340 seems to be a poor design choice - the fuselarge is too narrow making it useless as a frieghter.

Hah. Tell that to every freight operator in the world.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 17):
I thought it's 14 inches wider.

It isn't.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 26):
The conclusion I draw is that Boeing optimizes the fuselage to fit the mission as opposed to Airbus' "one size fits all' approach.

Which appraoch is winning in the market place?

But at what cost? Airbus makes 3 fuse widths now. For the moment, Boeing is now making 6. 6!

There is a reason Airbus planes are cheaper and Airbus is more profitable. This is a primary one.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Quite a bit more than 4 inches, and the extra space was cited as a deciding factor by AI. The 787's wider fuselage maximizes revenue cargo hold and passenger floor space by allocating crew rest to the crown area.

I would hardly call the 220-in fuselage perfect.

Its 222 inches and the 787 is only going to be 226. That's not quite a bit more than 4 inches.

N

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2005-12-15 02:30:07 and read 21531 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
But at what cost? Airbus makes 3 fuse widths now. For the moment, Boeing is now making 6. 6!

And Boeing is dominating the widebody market. Losing these sales campaigns is a BIG cost for Airbus.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
There is a reason Airbus planes are cheaper and Airbus is more profitable. This is a primary one.

I agree, Airbus planes are cheaper. I'm not so sure Airbus is more profitable due to differences in European and US accounting procedures.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Sllevin
Posted 2005-12-15 02:36:33 and read 21508 times.

One thing I will say about 2-2-2 on the A330 is that you end up with wicked narrow aisles. An inch or two doesn't sound like much, but it's very noticable if you are in an aisle seat, that you get bumped a shedload more during the flight.

Toss in a slightly 'less than Olympian gymnast' crew, and I was constantly being jostled on the SFO-NRT flight I just took. As a general rule this happens a lot less on the 777 (although I'm not a huge fan of middle J seats, but nothing's perfect).

Steve

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: DarthRandall
Posted 2005-12-15 03:02:54 and read 21447 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Reply 3):
I agree that cabin size did not matter in the past. This is because cabins were very similar on Boeing and Airbus. This has all changed!

It has, but not nearly as dramatically as all that. The next generation of aircraft will indeed be more comfortable, and people will notice. However, I doubt the folks in cattle class will consider eschewing lower prices in favor of flying on the aircraft they prefer, at least not in any significant number. Business and first are comfortable no matter what aircraft you fly on.

That said, I have had several clients ask me to switch them from regionals to slightly more expensive A320 flights before. That typically occurs after they have me explain what an E-145 is. However, when it comes to the differences between an A330 and a 787, I don't know that they would be so picky.

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 20):
- I agree, and I also get hot easily. There is nothing worse than getting hot and sticky on a plane.

Yes there is--the pungent, overweight individual who is spilling over your arm rest getting all hot and sticky.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Boeing nut
Posted 2005-12-15 03:33:23 and read 21385 times.

I am getting more and more convinced that the A350 is becoming a 787 copycat. Announcing that they are using more composites, etc, etc. The latest thing that has convinced me of this is that Airbus is going from a 6 panel cockpit screen to a four panel. Hmmm, that is just like the ........... you guessed it, the 787. I saw this info on this very website, but I don't remember which post it was in.

I don't expect this post to last more than a couple hours anyways, but I apologize. I have had a few as I write this.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: N328KF
Posted 2005-12-15 04:05:34 and read 21313 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
There is a reason Airbus planes are cheaper and Airbus is more profitable. This is a primary one.

On what planet is the A350 cheaper than the 787?*

* with the knowledge we currently possess

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-12-15 04:24:08 and read 21277 times.

The A350-800 is cheaper than the 787-9, and the A350-900 is certainly cheaper than the 777-200ER.

A340s are significantly cheaper than 777s.

N

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-12-15 04:28:41 and read 21267 times.

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 41):
The latest thing that has convinced me of this is that Airbus is going from a 6 panel cockpit screen to a four panel.

Where did you hear that?

N

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: N1120A
Posted 2005-12-15 04:47:40 and read 21128 times.

Quoting BA319-131 (Reply 5):
Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A330/340 seems to be a poor design choice - the fuselarge is too narrow making it useless as a frieghter

-What? The fuselage is the same width as the A300/A310 which are excellent freighters.........

Actually, the reason the A330 and A340 are crap freighters because their payload/weight ratio is horrid

Quoting TGV (Reply 10):

A340/330 : 2-4-2 seating,
B777: 3-3-3 seating.

For me there is no discussion: give me a A340/330 anyday. I like window seats, but "double excuse seat" are horrible.

Furthermore the larger the cabin, the more people, and the more noise ! So better to have rows of 8 than rows of 9.

You can have a 2-5-2 777 and 777s and A340s are roughly the same size

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-12-15 04:50:50 and read 21095 times.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
Actually, the reason the A330 and A340 are crap freighters because their payload/weight ratio is horrid

The A330-200 is going to be a FANTASTIC freighter.

N

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TexasLonghorn
Posted 2005-12-15 05:21:04 and read 20867 times.

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 24):

Here are some great photos of how the airframes compare. First, this is the photo of the 764 and how the shoulder room is compared to the Airbus. The second photo shows the 777 with the A340 cross section built inside. Very interesting.

Thanks for the photos, Fanoftristars. Based on the picture comparing the A340 interior to the 777, I would much rather be on a 777.

This talk of a warmer cabin and getting "hot and sticky" is irrelevant. The increase in the 787's cabin pressure and humidity will not make you feel sticky. Instead, your body will be healthier for it. According to a talk given by 787 chief engineer Walt Gillette, our body's cells start to die at the low cabin pressures found on most airliners. The 787's pressure is such that this will not occur.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Nethkt
Posted 2005-12-15 06:30:32 and read 20456 times.

Oh, gosh, I just prefer the high ceiling on B777s. It gives me good feeling and nice atmosphere when flying longhaul.

I don't mind 2-4-2 or 3-3-3. For sure, there shoud be more seats when the cabin is significently wider.

Humid is absolutely good for your body and blood curculation. I don't know why people always blame humidity. Just take a shower if you feel so sticky!!

Ofcourse, A330s/A340s are far inferior from B777s in term of performances. Not counting the tail/trim tank inoperative problem which you won't see it with B777s. And the RTOW restrictions on nearly all A340s long haul flights departing from high-temperatured airports.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Condor24
Posted 2005-12-15 07:49:26 and read 20043 times.

As a fare paying passenger, fortunately I mostly fly long haul in F Class with either CX or BA, and the 747 wins hands down. The front cabin has the galley behind it and rows 2 or 3 are the best seats in the house. In the event I''m flying J class, the 747 upper deck is unique. Whilst the A340 / 330 are fine products, I do prefer the 777 / 767 ... the 777 has a more spacious feel and in the long term, the build quality seems more superior. That through the eyes of an experienced & observant fare paying passenger.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: PlaneDane
Posted 2005-12-15 07:52:54 and read 20025 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
Quite a bit more than 4 inches, and the extra space was cited as a deciding factor by AI. The 787's wider fuselage maximizes revenue cargo hold and passenger floor space by allocating crew rest to the crown area.

I would hardly call the 220-in fuselage perfect.

Its 222 inches and the 787 is only going to be 226. That's not quite a bit more than 4 inches.

You do actually realize that the difference DfwRevolution was talking about is the internal dimensions between the Airbus fuselage and that of the B787, don't you?!

[Edited 2005-12-15 08:15:01]

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Jakob77
Posted 2005-12-15 08:02:04 and read 19986 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A340 cabin is significantly inferior to the Boeing 777. The floor is unusually high to improve cargo capacity. this makes the cabin rather cramped especially for window seated passengers. This is because the wall of the cabin curves inwards. It is like being in a small cylinder

You're right on!!

The 777s with the new overhead bins that closes into the wall feels a lot roomier than the A330/340s. The spaciousness inside the Airbus is further reduced with its conventional overhead bins sticking out over your head.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Col220
Posted 2005-12-15 08:44:11 and read 19753 times.

Sorry, but I do prefer the smaller cabin of Airbus! In every case you have only 2 middle seats compared to the 3 middle seats of the 777 (2-5-2 or 3-3-3). Also the overhead bins. In the 777 you feel more sitting in a tube or a hall than in the Airbus. Airbus is more cosy.

But that's only my opinion.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Astuteman
Posted 2005-12-15 09:51:56 and read 19404 times.

Quoting Tjr16698 (Reply 11):
Must admit never to have felt particularly uncomfortable on A340s, and always aim for a window seat. There may be a difference compared to the 777, but to be honest I've not noticed.

My last trip containted a Paris-Rio leg on an AF777, followed by a (long) Santiago-Aukland leg on a LAN A340, followed by a Brisbane-Singapore leg on an SIA 777.

I personally enjoyed them all, and thought all cabins were marvellous - the A340 leg was the most comfortable flight I've ever experienced.

I've no doubt the extra few inches on an 8 abreast 787 could be made even more comfortable.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Johnny
Posted 2005-12-15 10:54:44 and read 19067 times.

@ EUGDOG


What the hell are you talking about?!? A330/340 a poor design choice?!?

Tell that all the airlines around the world which have ordered more than 900 of them so far!!! They must be mad... Smile

I think, the A330 and A340 will be good converted freighters in the future! Probably not for all missions, but for the integrators like FEDEX they will be a good choice to replace their MD10/11 in a few years time.They could use the same containers as on their huge A310/300-Fleet.that is a big advantage!!!

Do not blame the A330/340 cabin.Try to fly in a noisy 777-cabin in the middle of the cabin with two people left and two people right of you.Great... Sad

And in fact - Boeing just copied this cabin layout in case of the 787, because it is way more comfortable than the 777-layout.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TGV
Posted 2005-12-15 11:41:42 and read 18835 times.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 32):
Quoting TGV (Reply 10):
B777: 3-3-3 seating.

Agree, but under the 2-5-2 plan (as AA), you only have 1 "double excuse" seating, and more capacity.

I think very few 777 use the 2-5-2 seating (never been aboard one).

But I don't understand how this could give more capacity, as in both cases it is 9 abreast.  Confused

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 34):
You throw the middle seat out of the equation and the 777 wins in comfort hands down.

No, no, no: you will never change the fact that the window seats (which I selfishly prefer) are "double excuse seats". This is BAD. And if you speak of comfort in general the level of noise is far higher in a 777 than in a 343 (never been in 345/346).

But this dislike from my part is not 777 specific: the 747 cabin is bad also in this respect (and the 380 will be bad also, on the main deck at least).

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
You can have a 2-5-2 777 and 777s and A340s are roughly the same size

This is what I found for interior cabin width:
B777: 5.86 m
A340: 5.28 m
There is a significant difference (more than 10%) and this explains very well why the normal config is 9 abreast for the 777 and 8 on the 340.

I have found the corresponding info on the manufacturer websites.
Fuselage diameter
A340: 5.64 m
B787: 5.74 m

Maximum cabin width
A 340: 5.28 m.
B787: ???
We can assume that the cabin of the 787 will be wider that the cabin of 340/330. If the normal config is 8 abreast, then the 787 should be very comfortable. If this enables "normal" airlines to squeeze in 9 seats (not speaking of EK or charters here !), then this will be very bad.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: A333X
Posted 2005-12-15 12:30:03 and read 18578 times.

I really love the 777, but for the passengers, the A340 (A330) is simply a more comfortable plane (expect the overhead bins).For me, being in a "quiet" long-haul aircraft is very important, you feel less tired after a 10 hours flight. And the absence of "double excuse me" seats is an additional asset.

Regards

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Johnny
Posted 2005-12-15 12:38:16 and read 18536 times.

@ TGV

Hi ,that Airbus-Figure 5,28m ist the floor width,which is NOT the widest point of the A330/340 cabin!

The widest point (cabin width) is aproximately 15cm above floor level with a width of 5,40m!
you (and all others) could check that out on several drawings!  Smile

best regards,


Johnny

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Eugdog
Posted 2005-12-15 13:04:21 and read 18338 times.

I read that BA chose the 777 because of its superior cabin.

It not so much the absolute width of the cabin but the high floor which makes the walls curving inwards. I found my head almost touching the wall when I took a window seat on a A340.

I agree with the 2+5+2 seating of 777 not ideal for the person in the middle seat - but that is for only only 1 person - in most cases that middle seat will not be used or be used by a member of the same family - negating some of the weaknesses of the middle seat.

There can be no arguement about the superiority of the 777 over the 340 - did it not outsell the A340 by 100 to 20 this year? Even worse is the report that some airlines are replacing their A340 with 777.

I confess I have not noticed any difference in noise - although it would be hard if you do not travel frequently

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Killjoy
Posted 2005-12-15 13:06:45 and read 18319 times.

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 41):
I am getting more and more convinced that the A350 is becoming a 787 copycat. Announcing that they are using more composites, etc, etc.

Because Airbus has never used composites before?

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 41):
The latest thing that has convinced me of this is that Airbus is going from a 6 panel cockpit screen to a four panel. Hmmm, that is just like the ........... you guessed it, the 787.

And not because it yields a 0,25 % drag reduction? The info was here, btw, assuming you're referring to the windows.

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 41):
I don't expect this post to last more than a couple hours anyways, but I apologize. I have had a few as I write this.

I'm glad everyone cares about your drinking habits.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Icarus75
Posted 2005-12-15 13:13:32 and read 18261 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A340 cabin is significantly inferior to the Boeing 777.



Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The 777 cabin is much more spacious.

I flown several times for loghaul on both planes (economy seat) and I disagree with you!!!
I really like both a/c for their comfort but I prefer the A340 for one thing : smoother and more silent plane!

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Joni
Posted 2005-12-15 13:18:02 and read 18227 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Reply 3):
Imagine if you are business travellor facing a long haul flight - surely you would try to go on 787 then a more conventional aircraft with its low cabin pressure and very dry air. You would arrive at you business destination so much fresher and ready to do business!!!!

I understood the A350 will have even higher cabin pressure than the 787?

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: AJRfromSYR
Posted 2005-12-15 13:19:41 and read 18216 times.

where is this information on the A350 cabin pressure.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Kiwiandrew
Posted 2005-12-15 13:27:14 and read 18151 times.

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 24):

I've only ever flown the Airbus in Business class, and to be honest, I never noticed any lack of room, but then again, it was business class...

Likewise - a few years ago when LH was briefly operating a daylight A340 SIN-FRA and again earlier this year HKG-MUC overnight - the great thing with the A340 cabin was having 2-2-2 - my partner and I had the middle pair so we each had our own aisle . When compared to 2-3-2 on most carriers for the 777 you dont have anyone stepping over you , nor do you have to step over anyone , as someone who sleeps poorly this is a major advantage for me , I am easily disturbed and take ages to get back to sleep - but in this case I got about 9 hours uninterrupted sleep - a record for me inflight. Not having flown the A340 in zoo class , I can't speak for what the experience is like , but imagine that 2-4-2 is relatively good - a max of one person to step over ( or stepping over you ).

Yes , given the choice of a 787 or anything else over the same route I would prefer the 787 ( assuming all other factors are equal - eg price , cabin layout etc ) as I hate the dehydrating effect of longhaul - after a Europe to NZ flight I usually have a bloody nose for a day or say and my skin feels like crap no matter how much moisturiser I use - and if the 787 is going to have higher humidity and a lower cabin altitude I am all for it - but how many people out there in the real non-Anet world will know this and make their choice based on it .

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Eugdog
Posted 2005-12-15 13:36:47 and read 18085 times.

"and if the 787 is going to have higher humidity and a lower cabin altitude I am all for it - but how many people out there in the real non-Anet world will know this and make their choice based on it "

High premium business passengers on 14 hour flights will notice it if Boeing make a big deal of it and word of mouth get around amoung the small group of jet setting business travellors of how much better they feel after a Boeing flight as opposed to the alternative

At the momemt people do no choose airlines based on aircraft since they are quite similar (incidently I thought the no middle seat in the A330/340 would give them a decisive advantage over the 777 - but I was wrong).

But if Boeing produce a plane with a vastly superior cabin then it could be a major selling point! This question is will it be superior to an improved airbus 350 cabin. I cannot answer that!

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2005-12-15 13:39:57 and read 18063 times.

I would rather fly the 340 because of these reasons:

on a 777 with a 3-3-3 seating, there are 5 seats where you have to pass other people if you need to go to the washroom.

On an A340 with a 2-4-2 configuration there are only 4 seats where you have to pass other people in order to go to the washroom

So there is a bigger chance that you will get a "bad" seat

also, the A340 is more quiet than the 777.

I still really enjoy flying the 777 though and it doesn't really matter to me in the end which aircraft I fly.

I have a question concerning the 787: As some people said in here, Boeing says that it will have a higher humidity in the cabin than any other aircraft. What does that do to the structure of the aircraft? Does it matter at all or what?

thanks!

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: NorCal
Posted 2005-12-15 14:06:50 and read 17849 times.

The cabin humidity is going to be boosted from around 7-8% which is in current aircraft, to somewhere in the range of 15-20% (don't remember the exact figure, I'll try and see if I can find where I read it). You aren't going to get hot and sweaty from that.

I don't know how Airbus plans on giving the A350 a similar humidity to the 787, they are still going to have a metal fuselage and metal fuselages corrode. That is the reason why cabin humidity is so low in today's airplanes. Maybe they have some new curing process to protect the metal? I'm also not sure how they are going to "beat" Boeing with a lower cabin altitude seeing how composites are stronger than metals.

I believe Boeing said that they were going to lower cabin altitude from about 8000 to 6000. Once again this is just my memory, I'll try and see if I can find a source on it.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Leskova
Posted 2005-12-15 14:28:29 and read 17681 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A340 cabin is significantly inferior to the Boeing 777.

If there has ever been something that's a matter of personal views, this is it.

Personally, I consider the A330/340's cabin to be superior to the B777s cabin - completely aside from the quieter airplane (well, at least in the case of the A340) that this cabin is "attached" to...

Regarding cabin height/width - I'm just under 1.9m tall, and don't really have narrow shoulders; I've never, in a 2-4-2 config, had any problems whatsoever regarding distance to the wall while seated at the window. And regarding the height... agreed, if you want to jump over seat rows, or trying to start a juggling-act with the chocolate-bar and the apple that you got as a snack during the flight, then the larger cabin height of the B777 is, indeed, an advantage.

For those passengers who simply sit in their seats, read, listen to music, watch a film, work or sleep, it's really irrelevant (that is, if you're not seriously claustrophobic, but then you'll have problems on planes in any case).

So, to sum it up: I completely disagree with the notion of the cabin "sinking" the A330/A340.

Regards,
Frank

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: ACdreamliner
Posted 2005-12-15 15:04:11 and read 17432 times.

Quoting HS748 (Reply 2):
How many passengers (other than a.netters) give a toss about what aircraft they fly?

many peopel say this on here, but i honestly do think they care. maybe not abot its name, but at least what it looks like. forexample when i went to dublin on an FR732 people were like, 'That does not even look like a real plane' 'what happened to the engines' and so on, its all about public perception...

thats just my opinion

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TGV
Posted 2005-12-15 15:13:45 and read 17367 times.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 57):
@ TGV

Hi ,that Airbus-Figure 5,28m ist the floor width,which is NOT the widest point of the A330/340 cabin!

The widest point (cabin width) is aproximately 15cm above floor level with a width of 5,40m!
you (and all others) could check that out on several drawings!

Well you may be right, but you should tell Airbus  Wink

Because here they write:
Maximum cabin width 5.28 m. 17 ft. 4 in.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Phollingsworth
Posted 2005-12-15 15:19:14 and read 17316 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
But at what cost? Airbus makes 3 fuse widths now. For the moment, Boeing is now making 6. 6!

There is a reason Airbus planes are cheaper and Airbus is more profitable. This is a primary one.

Your going to have to support the claim that 3 vs. 6 different fuselage widths are the primary reason, otherwise it smacks of "It is so, because I say it so, and I am smarter than you". When you look at the complexity of aircraft structures you quickly realize that fuselage barrel sections are some of the simplest parts of the structure. The nose and tail sections of the fuselage are more complicated, and the wings win hands down on the complexity front. Now 2 of Airbus's 3 fuselage cross-sections are simple cylinders, while only 1 of Boeing's is. This will lead to some savings, but there influence should be substantially masked by other factors.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Joni
Posted 2005-12-15 15:36:36 and read 17156 times.

Quoting AJRfromSYR (Reply 62):
where is this information on the A350 cabin pressure.

Here:

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft05/FRH0512/FR0512f.htm

Inside the A350 passenger cabin, which has been slightly enlarged due to the use of flattened ribs, Airbus plans to increase the air humidity to 20 percent, that is, five percent more than in the 787 which already has a particularly comfortable design. Again, the internal pressure will defy the Boeing model, with a typical pressure altitude of only 1,830m.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: NorCal
Posted 2005-12-15 15:43:31 and read 17088 times.

Quoting Joni (Reply 71):

So about 6000 feet cabin pressure altitude, thanks for the info. Any idea how they are going to keep the airplane from corroding at 20% humidity? New curing or chemical process?

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Geo772
Posted 2005-12-15 16:05:44 and read 16918 times.

From my experience of flying longhaul economy (I think my experiences in business and first aren't representative of the aircraft type) here are the aircraft in increasing levels of comfiness when in a window seat.

767 - 330 - 777 - 744

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Widebodyphotog
Posted 2005-12-15 18:34:14 and read 15831 times.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 57):
Hi ,that Airbus-Figure 5,28m ist the floor width,which is NOT the widest point of the A330/340 cabin!

The widest point (cabin width) is aproximately 15cm above floor level with a width of 5,40m!
you (and all others) could check that out on several drawings!

Here are the cabin diagrams and measurements from th respective manufactures:

Boeing 777 Cabin Cross-Section

Airbus A340 Cabin Cross Section


As far as the ferighter cross section, the A300 cross section dos not allow for the loading flexibility and ULD contours that are needed in the general cargo market and with 45t maximum load, loading density is only practical for package freight operations, i.e. Fedex/UPS. For freighters above 70t the A300 cross section falls short of general cargo freighters already availible such as MD-11/DC-10 and most recently the 777F.


777F Cross-Section

A300F Cross-Section

Just for fun:

787F Cross section



-widebodyphotog

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: FlyAUA
Posted 2005-12-15 18:46:53 and read 15732 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A340 cabin is significantly inferior to the Boeing 777

That'd be because the B777 cabin has a larger diameter than the A340 cabin. Simple  Wink

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
It also makes it difficult to stretched without significant strenghtening of the structure

Oh dear... shall I even comment?  laughing 

Ok here I go... if the A340 was stretched any further, you'd have tailstrike problems. The reason it's not going beyond the -600 is because the tail would hit the ground, NOT because it's structurally not possible like you imply. Also, Airbus are doing exactly what you claim is not possible, making a heavier A340-600 so you can throw the structural problems argument in the bin  Smile

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A330/340 seems to be a poor design choice - the fuselarge is too narrow making it useless as a frieghter.

Airbus never designed this aircraft keeping in mind that it would become a freigher in the future. They use the A300 for their freight operations and will use the A380 in the future. If they wanted to make freighter versions of the A330/A340, I am sure they'd look very different from what they are today.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The 777 cabin is much more spacious. As well as its it innovative cieling and the brilliantly designed overhead bins the walls are almost vertical.

Do you realise that not everybody flies long haul? When I fly, I care about 2 things... seat pitch, and seat width. Since I am seated for the entire flight, I can't be bothered by the overhead lockers (which are selected by the airline BTW and not the manufacturer most of the time anyways). Try flying on an ATR or a EuroJet or a CRJ. Then you'll see what "feeling cramped" is really like Big grin

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: AirbusBoeing
Posted 2005-12-15 18:54:53 and read 15662 times.

Talk about customer preferences.Here is my recent pleasure trip detail:

LAX to Atlanta - 767 Delta. 2 engines, crampy interiors, engine noise

Atlanta to Paris - 777 Delta. 2 engines, very cramped (probably airline choice of low leg space). My worst long haul fight because of leg space, roomy interiors, average engine noise

Paris to Delhi - 340 Air France. 4 engines, very low noise, ample leg room. Never had such a comfortable long haul (anything above 5 hrs seems long haul to me) flight.

Delhi -Dubai - Seychelles- Dubai- Delhi. 330 Emirates. Low noise, comfortable interiors

Delhi to Amsterdam - MD 11 KLM. Old plane...no point comparing

Amsterdam to LAX - 747 KLM. Good old 747, 4 engines, average leg space but ya 3-4-3 seating (prefer 2-4-2 but then just love to be in a 747, don't know why).

My choice out of the list - any plane with 4 engines and comfortable seating- 340, 747.

My wife's choice (she is not an aviation enthusiast)-Any plane. She couldn't feel the difference between any of them. For her, good food, good IFE and good airports is what matters the most.

P.S. Could someone clarify whether its just me or is it a fact that 340 cabin noise is lower than that of 330.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Richard28
Posted 2005-12-15 19:01:22 and read 15597 times.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 63):
Not having flown the A340 in zoo class , I can't speak for what the experience is like , but imagine that 2-4-2 is relatively good - a max of one person to step over ( or stepping over you ).

Thats sums it up for me, if I fly Y class I prefer the A340 over the 747 for this reason.

Indeed, last time I flew to LAX on VS I chose the A343 service over the B744 service.

Same logic would apply if VS flew the 777 for me.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: NW727251ADV
Posted 2005-12-15 19:11:52 and read 15508 times.

Quoting Col220 (Reply 52):
Sorry, but I do prefer the smaller cabin of Airbus! In every case you have only 2 middle seats compared to the 3 middle seats of the 777 (2-5-2 or 3-3-3). Also the overhead bins. In the 777 you feel more sitting in a tube or a hall than in the Airbus. Airbus is more cosy.

But that's only my opinion.

And only your opinion was the most intelligent part of this response. By your logic ALL of you A330/340 fanatics should hate the A320 because they have 3 seats on either side as well (minus a middle set of seats obviously)...and everyone should hate the 707, 727, 737, 757, DC-8...you following??? And again, the thing about "sitting in a tube or a hall" is personal preference. Why do you think the original L-1011 cabin was so highly celebrated. It was cavernous if you saw one.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mike Genovese



Quoting Johnny (Reply 54):
Do not blame the A330/340 cabin.Try to fly in a noisy 777-cabin in the middle of the cabin with two people left and two people right of you.Great...

Again, as repeated before MILLIONS of time, not too many airlines configure their 777s in a 2-5-2 layout. And again, the odds that someone on this forum would unluckily find themselves in that ONE really bad seat is infinitesimally small.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 54):
And in fact - Boeing just copied this cabin layout in case of the 787, because it is way more comfortable than the 777-layout.

Yeah...I'm sure thats why Boeing did this  sarcastic  even though the 777 cabin is preferred over the competition by a huge margin. And good grief I swear i've said this on this forum at least three times in the last two days...the AIRLINES DEMANDED that Boeing design the 777 to seat 9 to 10 abreast. Boeing preferred to do a 7 or 8 abreast and the AIRLINES wouldn't have it.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 65):
on a 777 with a 3-3-3 seating, there are 5 seats where you have to pass other people if you need to go to the washroom.

On an A340 with a 2-4-2 configuration there are only 4 seats where you have to pass other people in order to go to the washroom

OMG! Huge difference there  sarcastic 

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: MD80Nut
Posted 2005-12-15 19:12:06 and read 15506 times.

I've done long range flights in economy on the A330 (TAM), A340 (AR), 767 (AA, LAN, DL) and 777 (AA). I've enjoyed the flights on all of them. I can't say that I would avoid one in favor of the other.

I'm a window seat guy, and while the wall of the A330/340 curves in more than the Boeings, it did not affect my comfort to any degree. And the 'Buses did seem quieter. Yeah, the 2-5-2 configuration on the 777 sucks if you're in that middle seat, but so far I've been able to avoid it. I wonder why they don't try a 2-4-3 configuration? Nevertheless, I love that sense of spaciousness the 777 gives.

My favorite configuration though is the 767's 2-3-2. It just doesn't feel as crowded as the others. But like I said before, I like them all.

Cheers, Ralph

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TexasLonghorn
Posted 2005-12-15 19:24:31 and read 15386 times.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 74):
The widest point (cabin width) is aproximately 15cm above floor level with a width of 5,40m!
you (and all others) could check that out on several drawings!

So, the maximum cabin width of the A340 is at about your knee. The 787 is designed such that the maximum cabin width will be at shoulder level. This cabin will feel a lot more spacious.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: BoomBoom
Posted 2005-12-15 19:37:08 and read 15298 times.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 65):
also, the A340 is more quiet than the 777.

Isn't that because it flies slower?

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Lehpron
Posted 2005-12-15 19:38:20 and read 15294 times.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The A340 cabin is significantly inferior to the Boeing 777

LOL, whoa man if this was an opinion, you already experienced your ride.

Quoting Eugdog (Thread starter):
The 777 cabin is much more spacious.

Is it possible to ask about the commonalities and/or differences between either airplane BEFORE tell us what you think is obvious? It would help channel the real knowledge into the first few posts before someone like you responds with an opposite opinion, starting a flame war -- even if you technically started it

These are two different planes from two different countries with different ideas of how to go about things, what kinda of commonality would you prefer? Cargo, pax? I would expect that too, so carriers and airports do not have to worry about extra work or investment just to get these money makers back in the air safely and cost-effectively -- as being the point of all commercial use aircraft.

Besides, from what I read in here, it sounds as if the "spaciousness" (however subjective) is primarily based on whatever seating arriangment a carrier chooses for that flight, on that route, at that time of day/year.

The way you are with your 'attention getting opinions' give me the idea that you have been on A340's & 777's from different carriers such that you can compare so generally and be correct. Pardon me, while it may be good enough for you, I doubt you have really done the research.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2005-12-15 20:00:15 and read 15136 times.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 81):
Isn't that because it flies slower?

I don't think so...

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Leskova
Posted 2005-12-15 20:10:35 and read 15051 times.

Quoting AirbusBoeing (Reply 76):
P.S. Could someone clarify whether its just me or is it a fact that 340 cabin noise is lower than that of 330.



Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 81):
Isn't that because it flies slower?

Not really, don't the A330 and A340 cruise at the same speed? And regarding the noise level, I'd guess thats because 50% of the noise is produced quite a bit further away from the cabin... and the smaller engines could also simply be quieter than larger ones (at least larger ones of roughly the same generation - I'd say the smaller engines of a B737-200 produce quite a bit more noise than the enormous ones on a B777...  Wink)

Quoting TexasLonghorn (Reply 80):
Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 74):
The widest point (cabin width) is aproximately 15cm above floor level with a width of 5,40m!
you (and all others) could check that out on several drawings!

So, the maximum cabin width of the A340 is at about your knee. The 787 is designed such that the maximum cabin width will be at shoulder level. This cabin will feel a lot more spacious.

Well, below your knees, actually - unless you have really short legs: 15cm above the floor is, im my case, just above my ankles... 15cm are just under 6 inches, and I really don't think many people have their knees at that height...  Wink

Regards,
Frank

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TGV
Posted 2005-12-15 20:29:41 and read 14934 times.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 78):
By your logic ALL of you A330/340 fanatics should hate the A320 because they have 3 seats on either side as well (minus a middle set of seats obviously).

It di not occur to you that the needs are different for 2/3 hour flights, and for 10/12 hour flights ?  banghead 
So the inconvenient of a 3-3 cabin in a 320/737 has nothing to see with the inconvenients of a 3-x-3 cabin in a 747/777.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 78):
Yeah...I'm sure thats why Boeing did this sarcastic even though the 777 cabin is preferred over the competition by a huge margin. And good grief I swear i've said this on this forum at least three times in the last two days...the AIRLINES DEMANDED that Boeing design the 777 to seat 9 to 10 abreast. Boeing preferred to do a 7 or 8 abreast and the AIRLINES wouldn't have it.

I have read this argument many times, and I would really like to have some strong evidence supporting it. None of my colleagues (even if they are not airliners specialists they travel a lot and know the difference between 3-3-3 and 2-4-2 prefers the 3-3-3 config) has this opinion.

The 777 is liked by many airlines (unfortunately for me AF is one of those) is a fact, but it is due to economics.
I would be very surprised (and interested) to have some explanation why on earth an airline would prefer 3-3-3 versus 2-4-2, for passenger comfort?

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Boeing Nut
Posted 2005-12-15 20:53:09 and read 14766 times.

Quoting Killjoy (Reply 59):
Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 41):
I don't expect this post to last more than a couple hours anyways, but I apologize. I have had a few as I write this.

I'm glad everyone cares about your drinking habits.

Statements like this remaind me of a saying,..... I may be drunk right now but you're a jerk. At least I'll be sober in the morning.  talktothehand 

My point for this was for everyone who reads it to take it with a grain of salt which abviously you didn't.

Good day.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: AirPacific747
Posted 2005-12-15 22:03:02 and read 14653 times.

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 41):
I am getting more and more convinced that the A350 is becoming a 787 copycat.

ofcourse you are  Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2005-12-15 22:10:38 and read 14637 times.

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 50):

You do actually realize that the difference DfwRevolution was talking about is the internal dimensions between the Airbus fuselage and that of the B787, don't you?!

Um, duh?

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 81):
Isn't that because it flies slower?

No it is not. Its mostly due to engine noise, but also due to the general aerodynamics of the plane.

N

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: PlaneDane
Posted 2005-12-15 22:32:04 and read 14603 times.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 89):
Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 50):

You do actually realize that the difference DfwRevolution was talking about is the internal dimensions between the Airbus fuselage and that of the B787, don't you?!

Um, duh?

You quoted external dimensions. Um, duh?

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: 2000first
Posted 2005-12-15 22:51:37 and read 14566 times.

I have flown on 330 with Aer lingus(2-4-2) and MyTravel(3-3-3). The major factor that i feel is letting down the airbus cabin has less to do with cabin width as such(imho), but more to do with how that space is used, especially the overhead lockers.

I have also flown on an old A300b4 (transaer, also 3-3-3) and i can tell you that it felt FAR more spacious than either of the A330's simply because the over head lockers were far smaller. It really did have more of a big lounge feel to it, and didnt seem as tube like as the 330's.

Obviously when the B4 was built, people had less carryon and more legroom under the seat in front. I think as airbus have enlarged the over head lockers through the years, they should have come up with a more novel way of incorporating them instead of letting them eat into passengers headspace.

I have seen pictures of 330/340's with drop down bins, but for some reason hardly any airlines use them. Any ideas why this is?

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TGV
Posted 2005-12-15 23:49:40 and read 14494 times.

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 86):
Well TGV, this is where its time for you to stop SPECULATING and actually get your ass up and buy a book on aviation...particularly the 777. You must have absolutely ZERO knowledge of Boeing's "Working Together" program, because if you had the slightest clue you wouldnt have egg all over your face.

Hello! Did I hit a weak point with your A320/A340 reasoning (you did not answer on this one)? You seem very angry...  mischievous 

Anyway you are right: I am not an aviation specialist, just the average frequent flyer interested in comfort. So I never heard about Boeing's "Working Together" program before today (always good to learn something). I can very well accept the fact that airlines have asked for a bigger airplane, as they just consider the economic side of the problem.

And unfortunately you are perfectly right when you write:

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 86):
As SOOOO many people on A.net have mentioned before, the airlines could give a rats fat ass about "passenger comfort".

The only thing is that you should reread the first post of this thread: it was clearly sating that the 777 cabin has a far better comfort than the 340 cabin.

And I (reading all the posts I am not the only one) strongly disagree with this assumption. Check my posts I did not say anything else.

To summarize my views: the 777 may be a better plane from the airlines point of view, but from the passenger point of view the 340 is the best choice.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-12-16 02:30:59 and read 14414 times.

Quoting TGV (Reply 55):
This is what I found for interior cabin width:
B777: 5.86 m
A340: 5.28 m
There is a significant difference (more than 10%) and this explains very well why the normal config is 9 abreast for the 777 and 8 on the 340.

I have found the corresponding info on the manufacturer websites.
Fuselage diameter
A340: 5.64 m
B787: 5.74 m

Maximum cabin width
A 340: 5.28 m.
B787: ???

It's somewhere around 5.5m or 217" as far as I can determine.

But even though the the A340's cabin width is 5.28m or 208 inches, the standard seat configuration for the A340 in Airbus's documents has of 5.18m or 204 inches for all 8 seats & armrests and 2 aisles. Increasing seat width would move window seats closer to the walls, and due to greater curvature of the fuselage at shoulder and head height, this would place passenger uncomfortably close to wall. Not to mention, they would have to shave more of the window seat's window side top corner off to fit the seats in the airplane.

In contrast, Boeing's standard 777 configurations have seats closer to the wall, using up all but 1-2 inches of max cabin width. They can do this because the 777's walls are almost flat at shoulder height. Also it should be noted the armrests' vertical position at the same position as the widest point of the fuselage. The A340s armrests are located at a position above the corresponding point of the A340 fuselage (which is the floor of the A340). Since the widest point of an aircraft seat row is at armrest height, a greater fraction of the 777 fuselage width is usable for seating (~94.7% verus ~93.6%). The A330/A340 loses around 2 to 3 inches of seating due to the vertical position of the seats within the fuselage.

If we look at the 787 cross section that widebodyphotog linked to:

http://theaviationspecialist.com/787f_csection.jpg

we can see that the widest point in the fuselage is well above the floor and about at armrest height, allowing the seat row width to be a greater fraction of fuselage width than for the A340/A350. The 787 gains over 2" to 3" of seating space there. Combined with a 4" wider fuselage, that gives the 787 a 6" to 7" width advantage for the cabin, assuming spacing between the fuselage and cabin walls hasn't been decreased. But we know that Boeing has reduced that spacing recently by at least an inch by eliminating a layer of insulation, and I believe the wall thickness was already reduced as one of widebodyphotog's tables from before the announced reduction indicates that the cabin width is 216" and not 214". So my best estimate is that the cabin is 217" wide, with a 2" to 3" gain coming from reduced spacing between the fuselage and cabin wall, which is 9" wider than the A350 fuselage.

Looking at walls of the 787, one can see the curvature is significantly less at shoulder height, which will allow 787 seats to be positioned closer to the wall, giving around a 3" advantage in terms of usable cabin width over the A350. I estimate that the 787 has usable cabin width advantage of 12" or about 0.3m. That is a significant fraction of a seat. Airlines can easily shave a little ~7.5" from 2 aisles and 8 A340 sized seats and still have comfortable seating in a 9 across format with seats a shade narrower than a typical A340 seat. And it should be noted that the 787 is only 14" narrower in terms of usable cabin width in relation to the 777, which is less than a seat width. That means the 787 in a 9 across configuration is going to have wider, more comfortable seats than a 777 in a 10 across configuration. If airlines view 777's with 10 across seating as viable, 9 across in a 787 is going to be even more attractive.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 74):
Just for fun:

787F Cross section

I think would be little bit more fun if the figure had the maximum interior width labeled.  Wink

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Abba
Posted 2005-12-16 06:03:55 and read 14341 times.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 66):
I'm also not sure how they are going to "beat" Boeing with a lower cabin altitude seeing how composites are stronger than metals.

I don't think that this matters as that will mean less material used.

Abba

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Joni
Posted 2005-12-16 11:34:44 and read 14256 times.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 66):
I'm also not sure how they are going to "beat" Boeing with a lower cabin altitude seeing how composites are stronger than metals.

Boeing itself has stated that that rule isn't always true, there are new composites but also new metals developed all the time. Look at a quote I mentioned in the "A350 cabin pressure" thread for more info.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: TGV
Posted 2005-12-16 12:14:40 and read 14225 times.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 93):
...

Very interesting analysis Atmx2000.

And now I am fearing that the 787 will also have a 3-3-3 config.

Until now I was in favour of 787/350 against the 380 (as a passenger), but if the 787 goes 9 abreast, only 350 will be acceptable !

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Atmx2000
Posted 2005-12-16 16:00:51 and read 14141 times.

Quoting TGV (Reply 96):
Until now I was in favour of 787/350 against the 380 (as a passenger), but if the 787 goes 9 abreast, only 350 will be acceptable !

I expect that airlines from affluent countries will be more likely to configure it with 8 across for many long routes, and airlines with business from more price sensitive customers will use 9 across. It's medium haul routes where airlines from affluent nation might use 8 across. Or they might include premium econony with 8 across and basic economy with 9 across seating. Alternatively, airlines might use 9 across and reduce row count by around a ninth and give passengers more seat pitch. The 787 fuselage design will give airlines more flexibility in differentiating their economy product and choosing a seating arrangement more attractive to their customer base.

Topic: RE: Is The A340 Cabin Sinking The A340 And A350!
Username: Astuteman
Posted 2005-12-16 16:50:28 and read 14098 times.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 70):
Your going to have to support the claim that 3 vs. 6 different fuselage widths are the primary reason, otherwise it smacks of "It is so, because I say it so, and I am smarter than you". When you look at the complexity of aircraft structures you quickly realize that fuselage barrel sections are some of the simplest parts of the structure. The nose and tail sections of the fuselage are more complicated, and the wings win hands down on the complexity front. Now 2 of Airbus's 3 fuselage cross-sections are simple cylinders, while only 1 of Boeing's is. This will lead to some savings, but there influence should be substantially masked by other factors.

Gigneil is right in this instance, and for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, tooling used on the Airbus widebody series can be made virtually interchangeable between the A300/A310/A330/A340/A350. This allows Airbus a significant amount of flexibility and cost savings in their production processes.

Secondly, I (like you) think that the structural work content is overrated on this forum.
BUT, a large proportion of what goes into this structure is also dictated by the cabin diameter, e.g. linings, insulation, cabling, hydraulics, decks, ceilings etc, etc, and the standard fuselage diameter allows airbus to standardise on all of these, as well. The cost savings here are quite considerable.
As an example, the new A350 linings will readily carry over to any of the above classes with little or no design work/modification.

In keeping with the thread title, the downside of this standardisation philosophy is that, if you decide to change/tweak this cross-section, you're somewhat obliged to carry it over for the whole range.
FWIW I think Boeing have sized the 787 extremely well (a few inches bigger than its competitor) in the same way Airbus sized the A320 very well.

If I were Airbus, I'd take the plunge + rework the 8-abreast cross section. But that's a very expensive and disruptive decision to take. I don't think Airbus are ready just yet.
A


The messages in this discussion express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Airliners.net or any entity associated with Airliners.net.

Copyright © Lundgren Aerospace. All rights reserved.
http://www.airliners.net/