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Topic: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: FLY777UAL
Posted 2006-01-03 08:54:38 and read 10873 times.

The battle has begun.
United Airlines today will begin blanketing Denver with an advertising campaign aimed directly at its newest competitor, Southwest Airlines.

The first phase of United's campaign includes print ads pointing out Southwest's limited nonstop service out of Denver International Airport.

Southwest today starts flying 13 daily flights to three cities, and it is expected to announce service this morning to two more. United, the dominant carrier at DIA, has 400 daily departures from Denver to dozens of cities through its mainline, Ted and United Express service.


link: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm.../0,2777,DRMN_23916_4358425,00.html

Funny ad to be honest...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2006-01-03 09:33:18 and read 10822 times.

The gloves are on...ding ding...round one...let the fight begin....my monies on UA!  twocents 

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2006-01-03 10:06:13 and read 10772 times.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 1):
my monies on UA!

Mine is on Frontier.  Smile

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: FXramper
Posted 2006-01-03 10:10:45 and read 10758 times.

Although a competitor, F9 outta DEN is laughable...who was on the inaugural of WN to DEN?

Tell us how it went!!!  Smile

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Moparman
Posted 2006-01-03 11:11:26 and read 10698 times.

For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: TxAgKuwait
Posted 2006-01-03 11:21:35 and read 10674 times.

>> I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.<<

And I would not be a bit surprised if the folks at Southwest Airlines Co would prefer that you take Greyhound as well.

On the subject of WN in Denver, the real shot fired is the announcement of service to Salt Lake City.

Right now Frontier's walk up fare across there is $249.

It is 391 miles. Roughly 1:25 mins. Southwest will price their walk up fare at $119 or so.

One place nobody has ever been able to compete effectively with Southwest has been in the 1 to 2 hr business type flights. Dallas to Houston. L.A. to Oakland. Phoenix to Las Vegas.

Look at market share dominance by WN in markets of that type.

Slashing the going rate between DEN and SLC by half will wake up the market...instead of 780 psgrs per day it may very well grow to 2000 psgrs per day.

And contrary to popular misconception, many, many businessmen will opt to fly Southwest---and that is especially true on short hops like that. Business travelers want frequency, they want on-time, and the FF program where a handful of DEN-SLC round trips gets you a free ticket anyplace WN goes is a decent deal.

But go ahead and underestimate Southwest in Denver. Other airlines have done so over the years, generally at their own peril.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: A2
Posted 2006-01-03 11:33:19 and read 10653 times.

I must say it is one of the funniest ad I've seen in a long, long, long time.

Good job UA

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Stlgph
Posted 2006-01-03 11:55:03 and read 10628 times.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
Slashing the going rate between DEN and SLC by half will wake up the market...instead of 780 psgrs per day it may very well grow to 2000 psgrs per day.

159%? come on now.

Quoting FLY777UAL (Thread starter):
Funny ad to be honest...

That is a great advertisement. Absolutely great.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Apodino
Posted 2006-01-03 12:02:36 and read 10618 times.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 7):
TxAgKuwait:

"And I would not be a bit surprised if the folks at Southwest Airlines Co would prefer that you take Greyhound as well."

Considering what I spend on travel, as I fly between 70000 - 90000 miles per year, and the vast majority of it for pleasure rather than business; much of it in business or 1st class. Considering that I have been either a Gold or Platinum Elite on Continental for the past 5 years, a cheezy airline like Southwest would do well to get passengers like myself to come and fly with them. Personally I refuse to spend my money with them. With the above in mind, I think your statement is inapproprate. There are some people who will still spend a little more for quality, instead of with the lowest common denominator of air travel.

Why should I when you can get better service on every other airline flying; or Greyhound for that matter?

I am obviously not a big Southwest cheerleader. That being said, service on WN is about as good as most legacy carriers. They don't block the aisle with beverage carts, and they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, which I cannot say about some legacy carriers. They also have all leather seats in their planes. They do things differently than most other airlines, there is no question about that. They have an on time record comporable to anyone else. They are pretty high in the customer satisfaction department from what I understand, and they have very high employee morale. Not to mention they have the strictest pilot hiring requirements in Industry (you have to have a 737 type rating before you get hired for example.) Yes they do a lot of goofy things that most other companies wouldn't do, but coloring outside the lines is not necessarily a bad thing.

And your comment on Airline showing how incompetent they are. 95 percent of all the scenes on that show are idiotic passengers more than the incompetent airline. I mean, things like being in a bar drinking while boarding your flight, and you don't respond to announcements, then when they give up your seat, you get mad when you should have been at the gate on the plane in the first place. And some nut leaving security on a 30 minute layover to smoke, then naturally got held up in the tsa line coming back and missing his flight. Can you blame any airline for this? No.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Moparman
Posted 2006-01-03 12:14:31 and read 10602 times.

Apodino,

I am not saying anything negative about the qualifactions of Southwest Airlines flight crews. Also, I am certainly not defending stupid and "idiotic" passengers. When I travel, I make it a point to be at the airport 2 hours before departure - just in case. Most of the time, I end up sitting around... sometime I end up in the airport bar; but I always make sure I'm at the gate in plenty of time. Do I blame Southwest for the passengers? No. Do I believe that they attract a, well, more idiotic crowd? yes - through their generally lower prices. Be that as it may.

What I have said is entirely personal opinion. I vote with my wallet, and I will not support Southwest Airlines. Any airline that oversells on occasion; Southwest seems to do it every flight. I travel through Sacramento regularly (normally on CO or DL), and I hear Southwest's announcements... I cannot remember a single time I was there that they did not make overbooking announcements. That is a sign of total incompetence in my view.

While I argree with you about thinking outside of the box; sometimes staying inside the box is a good thing as well. My view of Southwest is that they are the lowest denomination in air travel today.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: CO7e7
Posted 2006-01-03 12:36:19 and read 10567 times.

I agree, the add is funny but I don't see how it's going to affect either airline. Some people don't care about service and what not, they just want to fly from one place to another by purchasing THE cheapest ticket they could find. Whether it's AA, DL, WN, UA or CO.. they just don't care!
You guys keep forgetting one thing (and I wrote this in another thread today): We as a.netters have our preferences when it comes to flying. We care about the aircraft, the manufacturer, the service, the airline... Etc.... Having said all that, you have to keep in mind that other people do really care.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MidnightMike
Posted 2006-01-03 13:26:01 and read 10495 times.

First rule of advertisement, you avoid mentioning your competitor as much as possible, as even mentioning your competitor, you are giving it attention.....

United should focus on its strengths, focusing on the supposed weakness of Southwest, is just childish.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Justapassenger
Posted 2006-01-03 13:29:34 and read 10489 times.

I am not aware of all of Frontier’s PR efforts to counter WN’s entry into the Denver market, but at 5:45 CST today I did hear the CEO of Frontier being interviewed on CNBC about Southwest starting service at Denver today. I was not impressed.

He said that they had been expecting Southwest to enter Denver and fill the geographic hole in WN’s service map and that he expected WN to expand their service at DIA.

All he said as far as Frontier’s response to WN’s entry into the Denver market was that Frontier was talking to its passengers and responding to their needs and desires. It seemed like a really weak response. Why didn’t he say something much more positive to promote Frontier? Why didn’t he say: 1) We have a superior product, 2) We are prepared to counter WN’s new service, 3) There’s room for both of us on those routes. Why didn’t he give us more hope that they could deal with WN’s new service?

I certainly hope that F-9 has a more effective PR program going on somewhere else.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: OzarkD9S
Posted 2006-01-03 13:30:22 and read 10485 times.

Let's see...United spends thousands of dollars on advertising, Southwest's new service gets a ton of free publicity.

Now who's laughing?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Bicoastal
Posted 2006-01-03 13:40:40 and read 10465 times.

I still think Frontier has more to lose with Southwest coming to Denver. As United well knows, it has a large national and international network and a competitive products for the business and leisure traveler with which to keep and grow its customer base. Frontier, well, uh, it has pretty planes, but competes mostly in the same demographic as does Southwest.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UAL777UK
Posted 2006-01-03 14:37:06 and read 10371 times.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 17):
I still think Frontier has more to lose with Southwest coming to Denver. As United well knows, it has a large national and international network and a competitive products for the business and leisure traveler with which to keep and grow its customer base. Frontier, well, uh, it has pretty planes, but competes mostly in the same demographic as does Southwest.

Without a shadow of doubt, Frontier is going to get slaughterd here if it does not get its act together and fight the fight. No way will UA allow WN to simply walk over them at DEN, this is a major hub, with major feed, O&D, so I think they will do fine on competing routes.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: BCALdavid
Posted 2006-01-03 14:54:38 and read 10321 times.

Well done TxAgKuwait, I agree with you whole heartedly! I fly between the UK and the US, around europe plus domestic US service frequently, usually in business class. I don't consider myself a cut above the rest but I certainly do not consider myself "the lowest common denominator" for preferring to choose Southwest over legacy carriers for domestic US service. They have proved to be as good as legacy carriers in my opinion. They don't compare well to good european carriers within europe however, and neither do easyJet and Ryanair, our "Southwest euro-style" carriers, who I choose not to fly with!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2006-01-03 15:06:21 and read 10288 times.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
Slashing the going rate between DEN and SLC by half will wake up the market...instead of 780 psgrs per day it may very well grow to 2000 psgrs per day.

For this to be true, you have to assume there are 2,000 passengers who will fly that route each day. SLC-DEN-SLC isn't the California Corridor and UA, F9 and DL aren't going to sit on their hands.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-03 15:07:29 and read 10284 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 9):
They have an on time record comporable to anyone else.

And they better... because when they blow your connection you're in alot worse shape than if any legacy with a boatload of interline agreements blows your connection. Not to mention compared to Continental who'll bend over backwards and do cartwheels for blown connections... even if it's the fault of bad wx.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: SBN580
Posted 2006-01-03 15:21:10 and read 10242 times.

Quoting FLY777UAL (Thread starter):
The first phase of United's campaign includes print ads pointing out Southwest's limited nonstop service out of Denver International Airport.

It's a good ad, but I think United is showing quantity over quality, when quality should be just as important.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.

To be fair to WN, the show highlights employee dilemmas set up by ignoramous passengers more than anything else. There are those for any airline. I recall reading that Southwest was the only airline to volunteer for the show. A risky PR move, but all in all it's free advertising. And it's employees are shown solving problems no matter how wacky, so the PR is usually to their advantage. As for Southwest and Greyhound, well Southwest could well be called "Air Greyhound."

Quoting FLY777UAL (Thread starter):
Not to mention they have the strictest pilot hiring requirements in Industry (you have to have a 737 type rating before you get hired for example.)

Kind of makes sense since that is the only type they fly.

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 13):
Some people don't care about service and what not, they just want to fly from one place to another by purchasing THE cheapest ticket they could find.

Such is the state of our society in general. Low price over quality and wanting everything for nothing.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Iluv2pilot
Posted 2006-01-03 15:27:52 and read 10217 times.

Boy all you WN bashers are right on the mark!!!

Let's face it, WN is hurting badly and just got out of bankruptcy court. They are putting planes in the desert, laying off employees, and shrinking their payroll to stay alive.

DUh!!!!!! That's UA not WN.....

You don't have to like their product, their advertising, or their service, but to call them laughable is ignorant and shows a lack of understanding of how well they perform and why.

I'm Platinum on Delta and CO and elite on Air Tran and I avoid WN when possible, but when I have to I do and generally find it ok.

From a business perspective their doing fine and their smart and they will hurt UA in DEN.

The ad is funny but it was stupid to mention WN as now folks who weren't aware their flying there will.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ChrisNH
Posted 2006-01-03 15:34:43 and read 10191 times.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.

To be much more accurate, the show points out the complete idiocy of the passengers ('Why CAN'T my poodle have its own seat???') than of the airline.

Southwest Airlines has bright people and makes a profit; United Airlines has...well...777s.

Chris in NH

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: TxAgKuwait
Posted 2006-01-03 15:55:38 and read 10117 times.

>>For this to be true, you have to assume there are 2,000 passengers who will fly that route each day. SLC-DEN-SLC isn't the California Corridor and UA, F9 and DL aren't going to sit on their hands.<<

Well, there are close to 2000 psgrs a day right now flying the 600 or so miles between Denver and Phoenix at an average fare basically the same as the 780 psgrs flying each day between Denver and Salt Lake despite the latter only being 390 miles.

And I am well aware that SLC-DEN is not the California corridor. Between the LA area and the Bay area you are talking close to 18,000 passengers a day. I would never suggest that SLC-DEN would do that kind of volume.

And no, I do not for an instant think that the other airlines will sit on their hands. They will cut their price and market aggressively. The problem is, they will cut their prices and sit there and bleed and then start to wonder if chasing short haul is really worth their trouble.

You need only look at history to see countless instances of UA doing this in California....back before Southwest inherited PSA's position in the marketplace. Braniff and American have played this game in Texas a few times. USAirways learned some harsh lessons in and out of BWI.

Short haul is what separates the men from the boys in the airline industry. You can sit there and say that United et al have lowered their CASMs thru the bankruptcy courts, but you still have to look at their average stage length.

If UA is reporting a CASM of 10.0 ...... you can figure that's on a healthy stage length which includes all those nonstops to foreign countries -- Japan, Germany, etc etc. Those long hauls are pretty cheap flying. What's expensive, on a per mile basis, for the legacy carriers are the short hauls.

So that trip in between SLC and DEN at 390 miles probably doesn't give UA a CASM of a dime. It's probably 14 or 15 cents.

You are not going to enjoy competing against WN over the long term for short haul passengers when you are getting a 12 cent yield. Sooner or later somebody is going to blink. History suggests it won't be WN.

But, 7e7, when you state that UA, F9, DL etc etc will not sit on their hands and watch this happen, you are right. Their fare cuts and marketing efforts will do nothing except expand the market. They'll expand it right up close to that 2000 number I mentioned. Bank on it.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tbird
Posted 2006-01-03 16:10:34 and read 10057 times.

Its a funny ad but I'd fly Southwest over UAL. Its just amazing how many people keep bashing Southwest over and over again. One has to wonder if success breeds jealously? I love reading everything Southwest does wrong, from not bending over backwards to help customers, to overbooking there flights, to not having enough connecting time. Here's a newsflash all airlines overbook, all of the legacy carriers have very tight connection times (AA's min is 20 mins), and you want to talk about customer service? WN's customer service is ranked higher then all of the legacy carriers.

With all that Southwest does wrong they seem to be making a ton of money. Enough money to buy new planes, build new terminals, invest in other airlines (ATA), increase frequency over and over again, add cities in the legacy carriers backyard, and stay out of Chap 11. I like to be on a winning team and it sure sounds like Southwest is that winning team.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Ikramerica
Posted 2006-01-03 16:13:46 and read 10045 times.

Quoting Justapassenger (Reply 12):
1) We have a superior product, 2) We are prepared to counter WN’s new service, 3) There’s room for both of us on those routes.

I think he said 3 just by his "expectations," that 1 is already obvious to their customers, and 2 would be suicide.

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 19):
To be fair to WN, the show highlights employee dilemmas set up by ignoramous passengers more than anything else.

But as others have pointed out, the airline attracts those people like flies. Anyone willing to wait in the long lines at LAX to avoid a connection elsewhere that would net the same travel times is not the star of the math team, in my opinion.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Apodino
Posted 2006-01-03 16:13:57 and read 10045 times.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 9):
My view of Southwest is that they are the lowest denomination in air travel today.

Personally, I would put NW, FL, NK, and PA on that group way before I would put WN on the list.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Incitatus
Posted 2006-01-03 16:20:08 and read 10019 times.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
And I would not be a bit surprised if the folks at Southwest Airlines Co would prefer that you take Greyhound as well.

Really? The very few times I boarded Southwest I was under the impression that them and Greyhound cater exactly to the same crowd.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: 777Purser
Posted 2006-01-03 16:27:03 and read 9994 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 8):
They don't block the aisle with beverage carts, and they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, which I cannot say about some legacy carriers.

As I am not informed on inflight procedures on Southwest, please explain to me how the beverage service is delivered. Also, when you say they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, do you mean the offer you a complimentary meal as opposed to buy on board?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: TxAgKuwait
Posted 2006-01-03 16:36:45 and read 9941 times.

Southwest's beverage service: Once the preflight safety announcements have been completed, the FAs will go thru the cabin and collect drink orders from passengers until they are told to be seated for takeoff.

Once airborne, they get up from their jumpseat and continue collecting the drink orders until they finish the cabin.

Once all drink orders have been taken, the FAs fill the drink orders in the galley and carry to the passengers on serving trays.

On some morning flights, especially of short duration, the FAs will pass thru the cabin with trays of coffee and fruit juices, taking orders from passengers desiring something different on an exception basis and bringing them their drink once the juice-n-coffee distribution is complete.

There are no inflight meals. You normally get something to munch on (peanuts, Ritz air crisps, Nabisco cookies) on flights less than 2 hrs and a snack pack (sausage stick, fruit bites, cheese-n-crackers, cookies) on flights of over 2 hrs.

The Flight Attendants are seldom stingy with the snack packs and if someone asks for seconds, they usually are glad to oblige.

Southwest is notorious for a full beverage service, weather permitting, even on the shortest of flights. Austin to Houston, 155 miles, usually blocks at 28-32 minutes of enroute time and they will do a full beverage service for 137 on that flight.

I hope that answered your question.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: BHMNONREV
Posted 2006-01-03 16:37:20 and read 9939 times.

Quoting Justapassenger (Reply 12):
Why didn’t he say something much more positive to promote Frontier? Why didn’t he say: 1) We have a superior product,

If all things were equal, I believe Frontier has the better product. But when they are forced to drop their walk-up fare on DEN-SLC to match WN, then their product just went into the crapper. I can't blame the guy for taking the side of caution..

I flew home from the gulf for Christmas vacation and planned on non-revving on AA from LGW-DFW-BHM. Everything out of Gatwick to DFW was packed solid so I was forced to fly LGW-RDU, and make my way from there to BHM. Knowing that WN served both cities, but not non-stop I checked the Southwest website to check fares. Three days prior to departure I found a one-way fare on WN for $70.00 ($88.90 with taxes and fees) with a connection in BNA, which would get me to BHM 10 minutes later than my original non-rev flight from DFW-BHM. Both flights left on time, great service, leather with ample legroom (I am somewhat of an expert on legroom since I have spent the last two days cramped in an Emirates sardine can) and I arrived in BHM five minutes early, with no sign of the AA flight from Dallas in sight. And for the sake of argument I checked several other airlines from RDU-BHM and the cheapest I found was $425.00 on US Airways. And the legacies wonder why they are in trouble..

I would bet that most WN bashers have never even flown WN...

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Apodino
Posted 2006-01-03 16:37:30 and read 9938 times.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 27):
As I am not informed on inflight procedures on Southwest, please explain to me how the beverage service is delivered. Also, when you say they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, do you mean the offer you a complimentary meal as opposed to buy on board?

The way it works is they come down the aisle, take your drink order and write it on a slip of paper. They go to the galley, fill the drinks, and bring them to you on trays. This way, the beverage cart never leaves the galley in flight. Herb started this because he didn't want the cart to block the aisles where passengers needed to pass to get to and from the lavs.

And about the Snack. Southwest doesn't serve meals in flight, they actually pioneered that and most of the legacies have followed suit. However, on the longer flights, they do serve you a free snack box, appropriate to the time of day, but it usually has crackers, a nutrigrain bar, cookies, and other goodies. Which is not unlike what JetBlue serves. On United, a similar snack box is Buy on Board, and will set you back $5.00. But on Southwest, its free.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tbird
Posted 2006-01-03 16:41:47 and read 9918 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Really? The very few times I boarded Southwest I was under the impression that them and Greyhound cater exactly to the same crowd.

I'm sure the thousands of business travelers who board Southwest flights every day and the hard working families who fly Southwest everyday must love to be stereotyped as low class.

I love people who generalize like you, why did you even bother to post a reply? you offer nothing to the topic and I'd wager if I took 100 customers who fly United and 100 customers who fly Southwest and put them in a room together you couldn't pick out the UAL from WN customers without looking at a boarding pass.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 27):
As I am not informed on in flight procedures on Southwest, please explain to me how the beverage service is delivered. Also, when you say they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, do you mean the offer you a complimentary meal as opposed to buy on board?

Southwest uses drink trays to serve drinks and wicker baskets or cloth bags to hand out snacks. This way the FAs can easily move over if someone needs to pass during the in-flight service. As for the snack box, Southwest's free snack box is generally far superior to AAs buy on board snack box. I can’t speak to what UAL gives you since I don’t fly UAL very often.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: 2H4
Posted 2006-01-03 16:52:51 and read 9863 times.




Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance?



Incompetance? Which other airline has been profitable for 30 years while maintaining industry-leading customer satisfaction?

 sarcastic 




2H4


Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Spartanmjf
Posted 2006-01-03 17:12:38 and read 9813 times.

The road to Chapter 11 is littered with competitors who have tried, and failed, to challenge Southwest's ability to satisfy customers and deliver a product at a competitive and profitable price level.

So where does this leave UA, given that they are already in Chapter 11?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Markabcan
Posted 2006-01-03 17:20:15 and read 9783 times.

All this Southwest bashing is absolutely ridiculous! Southwest provides a very competitive product compared to all airlines out there. Good leg room, plentiful and efficient drink service, excellent frequency, fair and consistent fares, on-time performance, that's what air travelers want and it shows in profits? Southwest provides a consistent product, this is the way to operate a business. In my experience most Southwest flights are packed with business travelers, not the so called lower denominator type people mentioned earlier! Just because a airline does not offer business class DOES not make it inferior! Success certainly does breed jealously, but its getting really hard to be jealous of half the airlines out there!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Manta
Posted 2006-01-03 17:23:53 and read 9756 times.

One question I've got that no one seemed to mention yet is:

With WN's populatiry at MDW, and now beginning service to DEN, it will just be a matter of time before WN posts a bunch of MDW-DEN flights. Do you think this will take away much from UA / TED service from MDW, or cut into the big ORD - DEN run that UA has dominated for so long?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: 777Purser
Posted 2006-01-03 17:26:20 and read 9748 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 30):
The way it works is they come down the aisle, take your drink order and write it on a slip of paper. They go to the galley, fill the drinks, and bring them to you on trays. This way, the beverage cart never leaves the galley in flight. Herb started this because he didn't want the cart to block the aisles where passengers needed to pass to get to and from the lavs.

Wow...I must admit... Take preference, run to the galley, pour drink, run down the aisle, serve pax...my best guess would be...6 to 9 at a time (no cans would fit on tray) take preference, run to the galley....and so forth...

I cannot imagine being able to achieve this on a 757 MC config of 166 pax, full and as a bev only designated flight, likely under 2 hr. having minimum crew onboard where only 2 FA's would have to provide customers with such service. Good thing they are currently paid the highest in US industry!

How long do they take on a full 737 they fly (how many pax) and what is the number of FA's they have onboard?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-01-03 17:35:31 and read 9698 times.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 2):
Mine is on Frontier.  Smile

where is Mariner? He usually gets into the mix on this.......that being said, I agree, I think F9 should do alright....

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-03 17:36:06 and read 9696 times.

Quoting Manta (Reply 35):
or cut into the big ORD - DEN run that UA has dominated for so long?

This is one I can see... just because ORD sucks for on-time performance. However, your typical Chicagoan-northsider has their collective head up the smelly end of their body... and thinks MDW is "that OTHER airport" or "that ghetto airport" and refuse to go there. But then again, on a flight of that kind of length, and then especially the BWI/DC Metroplex length... I'll take Frontier with the TV's, please.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: SRT75
Posted 2006-01-03 17:39:04 and read 9674 times.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 36):
How long do they take on a full 737 they fly (how many pax) and what is the number of FA's they have onboard?

135 pax, 3 FAs, and they get everyone a drink on a 50 min (airtime) flight from LAX to LAS (always full on Fridays and Sundays).

Quoting Moparman (Reply 9):
Any airline that oversells on occasion; Southwest seems to do it every flight. I travel through Sacramento regularly (normally on CO or DL), and I hear Southwest's announcements... I cannot remember a single time I was there that they did not make overbooking announcements. That is a sign of total incompetence in my view.

I fly LAX-SMF quite often for business. WN is about 1/2 the price of the only other option (UA). Plus, I get a fully refundable/changeable ticket. So do most of the other pax flying this route.

That means if your meeting is done early or late, you just head to the airport and get on the waitlist. It's not an oversell situation. Just everyone trying to get home at the same time.

Also, I have to give credit to WN for its egalitarian (distractors will call it "communist") wait list procedure. First come, first serve, and the waitlist from an earlier flight rolls over to the next flight.

On UA they have a seniority wait list (permiers get ahead of general Mileage+ members). I was stuck in SFO for 6 hours once waitlisting on flight after flight to LAX. I was #15 on one flight, and 11 got on board. I thought, great, I'll be number 4 for the next flight! WRONG, I was #33 on the next flight because of the seniority wait list procedure.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: TheGreatChecko
Posted 2006-01-03 17:59:30 and read 9610 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 18):

when they blow your connection you're in alot worse shape than if any legacy with a boatload of interline agreements blows your connection.

Other than the fact that WN won't send you on another airline, they on the otherhand will hold a connection and do it all the time. In their Ops Center they have full time Customer Service Coordinators whose only job is to protect the customer. They either hold flights (usually on the last flight of the day) or confirm seats on the next flight for people who have missed their connections. Usually the gate agent at the connecting city has everything sorted out for the missed connects by the time their flight arrives.

Only on the busiest of days and crappiest of situations do people who missed their connections end up without a seat and have to wait standby.

I have personally seen flights held a half hour for five connections in ELP.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 36):
Wow...I must admit... Take preference, run to the galley, pour drink, run down the aisle, serve pax...my best guess would be...6 to 9 at a time (no cans would fit on tray) take preference, run to the galley....and so forth...

I think its 9 cans or cups on the tray. With three flight attendants for 137 passengers and 3 for 120ish on a -500 its not as bad as you think. They work hard, but WN has had the system down for quite a while and it works pretty well.

GreatChecko

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Dartland
Posted 2006-01-03 18:17:48 and read 9541 times.

UA is confronting WN with their ads -- they are are taking a gamble that they aren't giving any new publicity, since it sounds like WN's entrance to DEN has been well-heralded. Risky, but probably the right move given how WN is very well publicized in DEN also.

UA has a great product, and while they should be touting the difference between them and WN, the whole non-stop thing is also a big deal. Denver residents have been spoiled with non-stop service all over the country (and the world) because of the UA hub. Without UA, they wouldn't even have the beautiful new aiport and everybody knows it.

My point is that Denver residents are no strangers to UA, and the loyalty game is going to be important. UA's reminder that while WN is coming in, they can't do what UA does for you (e.g. fly you anywhere you want to go non-stop) is important. Maybe we'll see new ads mentioning UA's service soon.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens, but I wouldn't put money on WN just yet. UA is going to re-emerge from bankruptcy and just maybe, will be an airline to be contended with again.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2006-01-03 18:17:52 and read 9541 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
where is Mariner?

Time difference with down under. Let him wake up first.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2006-01-03 18:26:17 and read 9508 times.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 3):
Although a competitor, F9 outta DEN is laughable..

Really? F9 has a huge following in DEN. They are one of the most popular companies out here, and have done well despite several attempts by UA to kill them (not the least of which was TED).

I actually flew into DEN yesterday on a Airtran Flight. There was a sparkly new Southwest plane at gate C43. Inside it looked like one big party, with a ton of people there wearing southwest sweaters and the gate looked full for the next flight.

DEN also mentioned that they plan to add 4 more gates to C for Southwest.

I don't see Southwest's entry into DEN as being a negative for either F9 or UA. UA is going to be diversifying DEN a bit with some more flights, and probably more international traffic. F9 is working on their mexican route system right now. Southwest is not about to challange either of thoose two markets.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-03 18:35:46 and read 9453 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Really? The very few times I boarded Southwest I was under the impression that them and Greyhound cater exactly to the same crowd.

My recent flights displayed exactly the opposite. SEA-SJC was a broad mix of families, students, etc. SJC-LAX and LAX-OAK were FULL of business types. Well-dressed, well-spoken, etc. OAK-SEA was also a mix, though again it had it's share of business types.

On LAX-OAK I got to sit next to a lady who was telling her friend about a six figure job that she was being offered, but she really wasn't ready to go back to work after having her kids. It got me thinking about many of the successful people that I know who go out of their way looking for value - i.e. millionaire who complains about something being expensive, and who runs a very tight business. Seems to me that NOT squandering your money is a good way of keeping it.

(The two things that seem to preclude some from flying WN is the lack of an interline FF program, and no assigned seating.)

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 36):
Wow...I must admit... Take preference, run to the galley, pour drink, run down the aisle, serve pax...my best guess would be...6 to 9 at a time (no cans would fit on tray) take preference, run to the galley....and so forth...

You make it sound like a playground. Honestly, it is very relaxed and, like said above, great for the passengers who don't have to "hold it" for 20 minutes while the cart slowly slides down the aisle. And, while I'm not 100% certain, I think someone is in the galley pouring the drinks while someone else is delivering them. It's not like one person is doing all the work.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: FLY777UAL
Posted 2006-01-03 18:38:34 and read 9440 times.

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 19):
Kind of makes sense since that is the only type they fly.

First of all, just curious as to how I was quoted as talking about WN's 737 type rating policy, but anyway...

Wouldn't it be unusual for an airline to require a type rating, even if it is their only type of aircraft...don't most just require a multi-engine rating to be considered for hiring?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Iowaman
Posted 2006-01-03 18:42:11 and read 9418 times.

Southwest Airlines Begins Service in Denver, Announces Additional Flights and Destinations
New Service Announced to Baltimore/Washington and Salt Lake City

DENVER, Jan. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV) toasted its new service at Denver International Airport. Not only did Southwest Airlines show its panache to Denver travelers, the airline also announced new destinations it will serve from Denver International Airport. To see Southwest Airlines' full Denver schedule or to book a flight to Denver or from the Mile High City to any of Southwest's 61 other destinations, visit: http://www.southwest.com/jp/luvhome.shtml?src=PR_DEN_010306

"Denver has been a missing link in Southwest's system for too long, and we've known the demand for Southwest Airlines service is strong in Colorado," said Gary Kelly, Southwest Airlines Chief Executive Officer. "Today, we're not only celebrating the start of our new service, but we're pleased to announce two new destinations that Southwest Airlines will serve nonstop from Denver International Airport."

Southwest Airlines begins its Denver service today with 13 daily nonstop flights to the following cities: Chicago Midway (four daily), Las Vegas (five daily), and Phoenix (four daily). The airline will offer direct or connecting service to 36 additional destinations, such as Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Orlando, and Seattle/Tacoma.

Beginning March 4, 2006, Southwest Airlines will offer new nonstop service between Denver and Baltimore/Washington (one daily nonstop departure) and new nonstop service between Denver and Salt Lake City (four daily nonstop departures). Southwest is offering these new flights to Customers at very low fares. Nonstop flights to Baltimore/Washington start as low as $99* one-way with 21-day advance purchase, and nonstop flights to Salt Lake City start as low as $49* one-way with 21-day advance purchase (*see fare rules). Also, beginning March 4, 2006, Southwest will add one additional flight between Denver and Phoenix (for a total of five daily nonstop departures) and one additional flight between Denver and Las Vegas (for a total of six daily nonstop departures).

"This new service will grow our Denver operation from 13 daily nonstop departures today to 20 daily nonstop departures -- all in less than three months! We know our Denver Employees will wow our Customers with their warmth and efficiency, keeping the demand high for more Southwest service in Denver," Kelly said. "These new flights demonstrate Southwest's commitment to Denver and our commitment to Colorado travelers. Southwest is the low fare provider; in fact, our fares top out at only $299** one-way, which will benefit all Colorado Customers."

Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper and Denver International Airport Co- Managers Vickie Braunagel and Turner West joined Kelly today at the event. The gate areas were decorated in a New Year's theme, and the event was kicked off with Southwest Airlines Employees declaring their New Year's resolutions for the airline's new Denver service. After Kelly announced the airline's plan for new service, he and Mayor Hickenlooper toasted the crowd with oversized champagne glasses.

With the addition of Denver, Southwest Airlines now offers nearly 3,000 daily flights to 62 cities in 32 states. Southwest Airlines employs 40 local Employees and more than 31,000 Employees nationwide. For Southwest Airlines' lowest fares, visit http://www.southwest.com.

http://southwest.com/about_swa/press/prindex.html

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-01-03 18:44:06 and read 9414 times.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 42):
Time difference with down under. Let him wake up first.

I was thinking of that..but I figured he has some kind of email "alert" which will wake him up when the word "Frontier" gets mentioned on this thread...

edit:

I meant when "Frontier" mentioned on A.net... Smile

[Edited 2006-01-03 18:44:44]

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: FATFlyer
Posted 2006-01-03 18:52:06 and read 9378 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 44):
It got me thinking about many of the successful people that I know who go out of their way looking for value - i.e. millionaire who complains about something being expensive, and who runs a very tight business. Seems to me that NOT squandering your money is a good way of keeping it.

The point made by the book "The Millionaire Next Door". Its not what you spend but what you keep, in other words your net worth.

For those not familiar with the book, here is a link to Chapter 1.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ooks/chap1/millionairenextdoor.htm

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2006-01-03 19:02:31 and read 9329 times.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 5):
And contrary to popular misconception, many, many businessmen will opt to fly Southwest

Why would a business pax that lives in Denver fly WN over UA or F9? WN will serve 3 or after today 5 cities from DEN, not a whole lot. If you can fly a mainline carrier that has a huge Intl. network and flys nonstop pretty much to the entire country from your city why would you pick a different airline????

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 22):
You are not going to enjoy competing against WN over the long term for short haul passengers when you are getting a 12 cent yield. Sooner or later somebody is going to blink. History suggests it won't be WN.

FRONTIER AIRLINES has the lowest CASM in the industry. If WN wants to play F9 can compete.

Everyone is throwing F9 out to die. Obviously these people do not live in Colorado because they would know that F9 is one of the most loved companies around here. F9 has a huge following and a large group of loyal customers that doesn't look anywhere else for tickets. F9 has one of the most loyal customers basis of ANY airline....

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Atrude777
Posted 2006-01-03 19:09:58 and read 9254 times.

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 49):
ALL AIRLINES OVERBOOK! It's been a fact of life forever and always will be. You hear the announcements more on WN because WN happens to be FILLING the planes.

LMAO HAHAHA BURN. BURN/ BURN SEEEEERIKE 3 AND YOUR OUT!!  rotfl   rotfl 

So True though!!!

I fly SWA alot, and honestly, iv never seen the mad rush, or the overbooking or anything. Weird. Never seen hick son my SWA Flight, honestly, I did see a hick on a NWA DTW-BWI flight. Funny heh? Wink

As for service, flights within 30 minute or less, they take the drink service on the ground at the gate. Once in the air, they immedaitly starts serving the drinks and pass out the peanuts, they are down with about 10 min of flight time elft, they use that time to clean up. We are now ready to land. Perfect timing, and WN does it for me everytime.

Alex

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: SAIL52115
Posted 2006-01-03 19:21:21 and read 9125 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 38):

Right on, bro! I really do like WN for these reasons:
1) I am a 20 min train ride from MDW, door-to-door!
2) Always on time in my experience
3) WN has never pretended they are something they are not. You gotta love a straightforward person/company/attitude: WYSIWYG.
3a) Oh, you paid how much for that flight?
4) More legroom.
5) I have been bumped from a WN flight trying to get home and they were very good about accomodating me on the next available flight (which involved a chg in BWI, instead of nonstop). 1 week later, I received a $50 voucher for a future flight as an apology. Hmmm...spend $50...get a customer for life?

And a plug for MDW:
It's gotten to the point that my wife and I will bend over backwards to fly out of MDW to wherever we need to go, except for NONSTOP long-haul overseas flights.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2006-01-03 19:24:03 and read 9096 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):
that being said, I agree, I think F9 should do alright....

I think you are right considering how well Frontier has competed against Ted in many of the same markets. Ted is actually losing market share y/y at DEN in spite of adding more seats and flights.

The RMN article states: Future ads, which will expand to radio, TV and online media, point out other differences between the carriers. United, for instance, offers first-class cabins on mainline flights....

I honestly think that UA would be better off trying to compete against WN with mainline service than TED...e.g. PHX, LAS.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-03 19:26:28 and read 9071 times.

Quoting SAIL52115 (Reply 52):
And a plug for MDW:

Just because I like MDW over ORD doesn't mean I like WN  Wink

ORD is on my "Avoid like the plague" list... just below Philly, and above Atlanta.

My MDW experiences were all FL, CO, NW, or TZ though... oh, and once a few years back on US, on the greatest mileage run ever. MDW-CLT-PIT-CKB-MGW.  Smile

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2006-01-03 19:30:42 and read 9032 times.

The article in today's Rocky Mountain News indicated that Southwest feels like they may expand up to 200 flights daily from DEN. 200 flts daily would be a major challange to both F9 and to UA (which just signed a agreement with the city to boost the number of flights in and out of DEN).

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Acjflyer
Posted 2006-01-03 19:32:05 and read 9012 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 50):
Why would a business pax that lives in Denver fly WN over UA or F9? WN will serve 3 or after today 5 cities from DEN, not a whole lot. If you can fly a mainline carrier that has a huge Intl. network and flys nonstop pretty much to the entire country from your city why would you pick a different airline????

that's just it, why does it matter if the airline flies to china if all you are doing is flying to SLC? I really don't care if my carrier flies to Dubai if all I need to worry about is flying an hour and twenty minutes to catch a meeting in Salt Lake City.

Let's be honest and think this through. Who would pay an additional $100 per flight between Denver and SLC just because they have a "huge intl. network and fly nonstop pretty much to the entire country"?


Hmmm, I think we're on to something here.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-03 19:37:45 and read 8951 times.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 47):
I meant when "Frontier" mentioned on A.net... 

I slept in.  Smile

There doesn't seem to be a lot to say here - I thought the thread was about United but somehow some "WN will kill F9 posts" turned up.

It's like a tedious re-run of the Ted will kill Frontier threads.

What was that you said - since the advent of Ted, United has continued to lose market share at DEN to F9? No - say it isn't so!

But it is so.

The same can't happen with Southwest, who must gain market share because they didn't have any before, but it is not usually Southwest's style to kill other airlines.

Unlike AMR at DAL, who set out to kill Legend and did.

And Ted, who failed to kill F9.  wave 

cheers

marier

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2006-01-03 19:44:48 and read 8889 times.

The DEN market is big enough for WN/F9/UA to all co-exist happily right now.

But if WN decides to build up to 200 flights per day (which I don't see happening for numerous reasons, gate space being a big one), then things could get ugly pretty quickly.

F9 probably won't lose any of its client base to WN. UA might. Consumers will do anything if the price is right.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: SLUAviator
Posted 2006-01-03 19:52:28 and read 8819 times.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 9):
Any airline that oversells on occasion; Southwest seems to do it every flight.

This comment shows your ignorance to the airline industry. Oversold flights are a good problem for an airline. You line up the people without seat assignments on a waiting list putting the people who paid the most for tickets, or your frequent fliers on top so every seat is filled with the highest yield passengers, or the ones with the most brand loyalty.

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 11):
First rule of advertisement, you avoid mentioning your competitor as much as possible, as even mentioning your competitor, you are giving it attention.....

It is the concept of any publicity is good publicity. A local Chicago radio station really hurt their ratings a few years ago by running sound bits saying "here is another song you won't hear on Q101 (our local alternative station)." I say, "wow, this song blows, I am gonna listen to Q101 cause I know I won't have to hear it." People who don't fly a lot will look at UA's flashy ads, and might take a look at Southwest's website to see why UA is reacting so strongly to WN in DEN. They findout that they can save money on the published UA fare by flying WN to see grandma this summer. If one passenger does that, UA has just screwed themselves.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 38):
your typical Chicagoan-northsider has their collective head up the smelly end of their body... and thinks MDW is "that OTHER airport" or "that ghetto airport" and refuse to go there.

Shove that remark right back up your ass. I am a northsider, and have been one my entire life. Until I started college, I only flew on WN out of MDW. Sure, back in the day MDW was a nasty little airport, but that did not keep us northsiders from going there to fly out of town. What you could save on a WN flight over a family of 4 can be used to pay for a car rental, or a hotel or dinner. Its called budgeting, and if the airlines up at ORD had been better about it, they might not all be broke.

With the $79 fares to DEN, I would go back to MDW from the northside. What I can save on WN as opposed to AA and UA out of the CLOSER ORD would pay for one day of skiing and a few beers at the bar when I am done.

Your remarks show that you are amazingly ignorant to the people who live in Chicago. You are probably one of those idiots who really believe people only go to Wrigley Field to see and be seen and not watch baseball.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Ckfred
Posted 2006-01-03 19:52:36 and read 8818 times.

Mike Boyd, an airline industry analyst, was quoted in the Chicago Tribune, about the time WN announced its DEN service, that WN might lose at DEN. First, F9 and UA have been fighting over fares for some time, and they announced reductions prior to WN's start of service.

Second, F9 and UA have far better service than WN. UA has first class and an "OK" product on Ted. F9, as an LCC, has a product that is superior to WN, including DIRECTV.

What I think will be interesting is how well WN does at running on time. A friend of mine is a pilot with AA, and taxi times at DEN can be very, very long.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2006-01-03 19:58:43 and read 8739 times.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 60):
F9, as an LCC, has a product that is superior to WN, including DIRECTV.

Take away the DIRECTV and the service is pretty much the same. The DIRECTV service is used by only about 25% of the passengers on flights under 90 minutes. The real advantage of having the TV is for the longer haul flights. F9 has cut back its snack and beverage service on flights under 700 miles, so they are pretty much equal to WN in that category. There is no noticeable difference in comfort on the planes now that WN has added those new leather seats.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: N200WN
Posted 2006-01-03 20:11:11 and read 8633 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 18):
because when they blow your connection you're in alot worse shape than if any legacy with a boatload of interline agreements blows your connection.

Your making much more out of this "blown connection" thing than it's worth. It happens so very rarely that you shouldn't even worry about it. With WN's high frequency service on so many routes and multiple connecting points nationwide it just isn't the problem that you make it out to be. WN will hold flights all the time for xfers if there is no other alternative. Besides, I just gave you an example last week in another thread where Southwest attempted to place a misconnect on Continental to get to LAX, then later that same week CO was calling back to place several misconnects on WN. There is a lot more cooperation between WN and the other airlines than most of you would believe. But what do I know? I've only been working at the airport for ten years.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 29):
I would bet that most WN bashers have never even flown WN...

Like my friend, Tornado, for example.  Smile

Quoting Dartland (Reply 41):
the whole non-stop thing is also a big deal.

In relation to whether WN will be successful in DEN, not really. WN is bigger than UA from all the other cities they are flying from. The legacy carriers are successful flying to DEN from their hubs, so why not WN flying to their mega stations and then some?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-03 20:15:14 and read 8591 times.

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 59):
Your remarks show that you are amazingly ignorant to the people who live in Chicago. You are probably one of those idiots who really believe people only go to Wrigley Field to see and be seen and not watch baseball.

I lived in extended-Chicagoland and went to college with a slew of Northsiders. When I'd fly from Midway I would get a constant barrage of comments like "Don't park your car," "I'm not giving you a ride to there" or "Watch your back" etc, etc.

As for Cubs "fans"... I do believe that, because I've gone there (as a Pirates fan) and seen it with my own eyes... just like used to happen with my Pirates for the first year or two of PNC Park... I guess that makes me an idiot then, and if that's the case I'm an idiot proud to call the World Champion White Sox my 2nd favorite major league team... only 2nd to my former-hometown Pirates. Northsiders are the reason I became a Sox fan upon moving there in '02, prior to that I didn't mind the Cubs as long as they weren't playing my Bucs... until I was turned off to the Cubs by their "fans." But I ask, what does Wrigley Field's deteriorating concrete have to do with aviation? That place has been around longer than Midway even.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: SPREE34
Posted 2006-01-03 20:17:06 and read 8567 times.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 32):



Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance?



Incompetance? Which other airline has been profitable for 30 years while maintaining industry-leading customer satisfaction?






2H4

Ahhh those pesky little facts.  Smile

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 33):
The road to Chapter 11 is littered with competitors who have tried, and failed, to challenge Southwest's ability to satisfy customers and deliver a product at a competitive and profitable price level.

So where does this leave UA, given that they are already in Chapter 11?

Hum, some more of those pesky little facts.

Southwest will prosper in Denver. Frontier will continue to prosper in Denver. United will remain in Denver though Denver will never be to United what it once was. Times change.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2006-01-03 20:19:33 and read 8539 times.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 27):
Quoting Apodino (Reply 8):
They don't block the aisle with beverage carts, and they don't charge for their snack boxes on longer flights, which I cannot say about some legacy carriers.

I don't think I've even seen carts on WN. Most of the cart storage under the counters, if I remember correctly, is fixed shelf space. The snacks on WN are brought onto the aircraft, and remain in the cardboard shipping boxes. Those of you who initially answered the question are right- it is a better system. However, I think it can get complicated and time consuming.

As for the snack choices in general: UA will give you peanuts, snack mix, cookies, etc. I think Buy on Board makes sense though. Look at the customer type WN caters too: "the greyhound type" as said above. If they have had to enforce a too large for one seat, pay two fares, then obviously they (WN) can bring aboard more food, because they know that people will eat it. Especially those with children, and the larger customers.
Yesterday I flew DEN-IAD on UA, a full 777. I walked back to the rear galley before our descent, and overheard the FAs counting and sealing the food money. $165 was the food profit. Imagine if those snack boxes were free- they would fly to IAD, sit in some fridge, and get shipped to the next destination. They would go around untouched- wasted. Whoever you fly, you will realize that most people bring their own food, anyways (or they eat right before they fly). UA realizes this, as most of their hub airports (do NOT get me started on IAD or LHR) have good food choices (SFO esp, DEN, ORD, LAX). That's why they offer the same branded food onboard now (TGI Fridays, etc.). I'm quite frankly surprised that WN hasn't picked up on this known fact. Of course, their passengers will eat anything.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Gritzngravee
Posted 2006-01-03 20:25:39 and read 8484 times.

Funny ad but is UNITED making any money? Someome mentioned it's funny how Southwest has a television show which displays their incompetence. That can work in two ways, it can display to the viewer like you and I that they are not embarassed to show they do make mistakes or they can completely seal the fate of a would be future passenger. At least they are willing to show you what it takes to run an LCC. And by the looks of UAL financial status not too many competent people running that airline more like ruining it. Also not too many business travelers are aviation enthusiast they're traveling to get to point A to B as quickly and cheap as possible in some instances. And if you own your own company I think you would rather like the additional WN service to DEN it might make payroll a little easier to determine. Ask UAL employees if their have been any pay cuts!!!!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2006-01-03 20:29:54 and read 8443 times.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 65):
Look at the customer type WN caters too: "the greyhound type" as said above

"greyhound type"? Just like the millions of business passengers who choose WN on routes like HOU-DAL, STL-MDW, LAX-PHX, BWI-PVD, LAX-OAK, etc, etc. I love how people are so quick to generalize WN clientele as "greyhound type". But what exatly defines a "greyhound type"? Someone who actually who chooses not to be raped by high fares? If so, throw me into that category!

I'd rather be considered a "greyhound type" passenger on an LCC than pay twice as much and getting no more (usually less) in return.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2006-01-03 20:32:15 and read 8411 times.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 65):
Of course, their passengers will eat anything

What is that supposed to mean/imply? Strange, very strange.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Markabcan
Posted 2006-01-03 20:46:02 and read 8286 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 68):
Of course, their passengers will eat anything.

You have got to be kidding me! Your obsession with United is fine, there is no need however to insult millions of people who don't share your ridiculous and uneducated opinion about Southwest. I know many very well educated and successfully people that fly Southwest weekly, but I suppose in your opinion you can define someone based on the airline they fly.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-03 20:46:11 and read 8284 times.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 65):
Look at the customer type WN caters too: "the greyhound type" as said above. If they have had to enforce a too large for one seat, pay two fares, then obviously they (WN) can bring aboard more food, because they know that people will eat it. Especially those with children, and the larger customers.



Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 65):
I'm quite frankly surprised that WN hasn't picked up on this known fact. Of course, their passengers will eat anything.

What moronic statements. People in this thread have given numerous examples of the varied clientel of WN, no different than any other airline. Why take it to the gutter with these stupid comments? It's embarrassing.

As to the Greyhound thing people always say, I've never understood this. The WN passengerst that I've seen have been no different than any other carriers. I fly AS a lot, and you get a really different crowd on them, primarily the connections from Alaska (the state). Why no comments about them?

As to the comment by another poster that F9 will probably not lose customers to WN, think again. There will be people, lots of them, who will try out the WN product, but there will also likely be an overall boost in passenger counts in the affected corridors, so the next result may be positive.

F9 may be great - I've never flown them - but neither they nor WN are immune from losing customers to a competitor. It happens every day.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Luvfa
Posted 2006-01-03 20:47:43 and read 8270 times.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 65):
Look at the customer type WN caters too: "the greyhound type" as said above. If they have had to enforce a too large for one seat, pay two fares, then obviously they (WN) can bring aboard more food, because they know that people will eat it. Especially those with children, and the larger customers

All Airlines require you to pay for a second seat if you are a "Customer of Size". The only thing is we get panned for it mainly because of our open seating. If a COS flies on a legacy they will voluntarily buy the second seat because the airline controls it and they will sell it to another customer. In order to be comfortable the COS will buy the second seat. At Southwest people get on board and pick their seat and try to reserve the second seat with a book or coat; and if the flight is not full, you get the 2nd seat free.
Ordinarily this is not a problem except if the flight is full. Which results in a inconvenienced customer with half of their seat taken by the COS. This is the main reason why we have this policy. However if you have to buy two seats and the flight is not full of revenue customers you get the money back for that second seat. A very fair policy in my opinion!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Gritzngravee
Posted 2006-01-03 20:51:06 and read 8234 times.

Quoting Markabcan (Reply 69):



Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 70):

Your both added to my respected user list. It's obvious they will continually get raped by airlines that are burning through cash like a cheap whore in Bangkok. People who make ignorant statements are ignorant. If riding greyhound or WN can save money and put food on the table then thats what you do. Again the people making these statements are probably UAL employees or even worst loyal customers of a failing airline that will pretty soon be half of what it was.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2006-01-03 20:52:10 and read 8224 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 61):
There is no noticeable difference in comfort on the planes now

I would think that with your ex-insider's knowledge, you would know very well that Frontier provides its passengers wider seats than WN and in some cases, more legroom. Additionally, on Frontier you can be assured the wide seat AND legroom whereas on Southwest you take your chances on every flight because of the boarding procedure.

I look for F9 to do the obvious. Provide free Direct TV on WN routes to and from DEN at least for a promo period.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: VSLover
Posted 2006-01-03 20:54:49 and read 8190 times.

Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 72):
a failing airline that will pretty soon be half of what it was.

oh wow, i fully agree with you.

i flew UA this weekend DEN-LAX-DEN and it was my first time in more than 4 years giving united another shot. i was so optimistic and eager to see what has changed at UA over the years, yet it was a total disaster that i will recount in a report soon...but i never thought i'd even consider throwing some money at WN until i experienced horrid service and overall terrible experience on UA. i'll stick with AA and for those random trips, well i hope F9 and WN are able to take me there.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Luvfa
Posted 2006-01-03 20:56:14 and read 8175 times.

People lets not lose focus here. If anyone is familiar with the "Southwest Effect", you know that fares will drop and passenger #'s will rise whether its WN/UA/F9/AA/CO/NW/B6 etc. If UA/F9's costs are in line they will benefit with the additional passenger loads at DEN.
Face it the Denver metro area is the 18th largest metro area in the US; with Colorado Springs/Pueblo, Ft. Collins/Greeley and Cheyenne, WY within a couple of hours drive. It is also our country's most isolated metro area being at least 300+ miles from the closest metro area. The fliers are there and there is enough customers to go around!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2006-01-03 20:58:03 and read 8142 times.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 73):
I would think that with your ex-insider's knowledge, you would know very well that Frontier provides its passengers wider seats than WN and in some cases, more legroom. Additionally, on Frontier you can be assured the wide seat AND legroom whereas on Southwest you take your chances on every flight because of the boarding procedure

Honestly, I have never really noticed a difference in seats when comparing Airbus and Boeing aircraft. Maybe that's because I need to lose some weight I guess. Assigned seats are surely a lot better than the WN boarding policy. Legroom is all the same to me on commerical flights in coach. An inch extra or less doesn't make or break the experience, especially on shorter flights. My knees usually hit the seat in front of me on all airlines.  Smile

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Luvfa
Posted 2006-01-03 21:02:58 and read 8087 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 76):
Honestly, I have never really noticed a difference in seats when comparing Airbus and Boeing aircraft. Maybe that's because I need to lose some weight I guess. Assigned seats are surely a lot better than the WN boarding policy. L


I don't think the seats are wider on an Airbus A/C. The fuselage is wider however which may make it appear larger. The open seating allows 25 minute turns. As far losing weight, I'm right there with you after the holidays, LOL!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: IRelayer
Posted 2006-01-03 21:03:03 and read 8087 times.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.

This is a flamebait. I have suggested deletion.

For the record the TV show is a great move and also highlights the great things about WN while putting a personal touch on an impersonal business. At least they have the courage to put their operation up there for all to see.


I think the real question is not whether United will survive (that is a given) but whether Frontier can?

-IR

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MD90fan
Posted 2006-01-03 21:04:10 and read 8075 times.

What will DL do about WN on the SLC-DEN run?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-03 21:05:03 and read 8065 times.

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 78):
the real question is not whether United will survive (that is a given) but whether Frontier can?

See reply #57.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Luvfa
Posted 2006-01-03 21:11:53 and read 7986 times.

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 78):
For the record the TV show is a great move and also highlights the great things about WN while putting a personal touch on an impersonal business. At least they have the courage to put their operation up there for all to see.

SWA was the only airline willing to do "Airline" all the other airlines refused!

As far the customers who were on that show, they probably had to film for about a month to get 5 minutes from those "winners". All airlines get them and other airlines who don't rank near the top of customer rankings would have had even more "priceless footage".

Tease us all you want, I'll take profitability every quarter since 1991 every time!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: A330300
Posted 2006-01-03 21:16:49 and read 7939 times.

Working for F9, I know that the feeling has been tense among the ranks.

A common concern among all Frontier employees is the Denver-centricity of the marketing campaign Frontier has going on.

Yes, we have a superior product.
Yes, we have loyalty in the Denver market.
But only people in Denver know about it.

Wearing the current Frontier logo shirt at my station gets me "Oh you work for Frontier Ford?"

In the transcontinental markets where we do compete with Southwest - we compete mostly on price. The connections we have going to the east and west are fed in from Travelocity, Expedia, etc. - sometimes bundled with another airline going the other way. The loyalty lies in our hometown.

If Frontier is truly going to compete with Southwest, Frontier needs to leverage is strengths - quickly and effectively.

The company is frugal - with marketing, kiosks, etc. - the strategy has served Frontier well for the last few years but if there was one time Frontier should be making some investment into their future, this is the time to do it. Frontier needs to leverage its marketing strengths a bit more - or face a potential LAX disaster in DEN. Fix the bugs in SABRE, refine policies and procedures, etc.

We have good things coming this year -

TV show premiering in 9 days (where's the marketing?)
New uniforms in February
Technology enhancements

Potter is smart and conservative. But whether this stragey will work against WN is unknown - Only time will tell if we make the same mistakes as LAX or DH in IAD.

Here is an excerpt of an email sent to all Frontier employees from Jeff Potter a few days ago:

"We are about to open a brand new chapter of the Frontier saga with this upcoming year and it’s going to take all of our collective energy as we don our battle gear and suit up for what’s sure to be another wild year in this world of airlines. Yes, there will still be high fuel prices to contend with. And yes, we will continue to be diligent in controlling those costs that we have direct influence over while we expect to grow in the neighborhood of 18 percent in our next fiscal year. In addition to those known quantities we have an industry still in turmoil to deal with—United is expected to come out of bankruptcy sometime in early 2006; Independence Air may cease operations by the time you read this; while fares continue to show positive signs, they continue to trail the cost increases we have seen; and, we have yet another competitor to face here in Denver.

This brings me to the start of this new year and the arrival of Southwest’s new Denver service next week. As we saw when they originally announced the new service, you should expect to see the news and advertising in the media only grow. Just this morning, we saw the first big article in the Rocky Mountain News and we know that the media is scheduled to cover this for the next several days. This is really no different than what we do when we enter a new city—for example, we had several days of coverage in Akron/Canton both for the initial announcement and the launch of the first flights.

I want to reassure everyone as you get bombarded with Southwest images over the next week or so, we aren’t sitting idly as Southwest enters our hometown. Our immediate goal is to ensure that any place where Southwest is mentioned, Frontier is not only included, but that we become part and parcel of the Southwest story in Denver. In addition, in the weeks following, you will begin to see a new series of commercials that are a departure from our past ads (I can only tell you that “Flip” plays a prominent role); we have our reality TV show, “Flight Attendant School,” launching in early January (more details to come about some internal and external celebrations), and we will also have some exciting schedule announcements to make at the beginning of the year. So, Southwest will have their turn, and then we will have ours.

To be clear - this won’t be the last time we hear from Southwest. In fact, we expect them to grow in size in Denver, but their growth DOES NOT mean our decline. I mentioned donning our battle gear—it is more critical now than ever that we don’t let our guard down. Over the past 11 ½ years, we have built the best airline in this industry, and while we may be smaller than Southwest or United, we have the resilience and strength to compete with anyone – something we have proven throughout our history.

So, what is the plan of attack? Its complicated, but, here it is:
Step 1: We do what we have always done—offer a superior product at a great value, coupled with the best customer service in the industry.

Step 2: Repeat

It sounds like a cliché, but it really is just that simple. And if we do that, customers will continue to respond to us and we will continue to grow. So, every day that you come to work, be sure to ask yourself and your co-workers how you are making Frontier better and stronger – are we making a difference? And if you have thoughts or suggestions about things that we aren’t doing that can help us be better, stronger, faster, I am here and ready to listen. "

[Edited 2006-01-03 21:18:06]

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Gritzngravee
Posted 2006-01-03 21:30:25 and read 7831 times.

That is the whole point of WN existence to be different, no assigned seating is one feature. Where as other airlines you are literally paying for your seat(we added more pitch 1/4 of an inch WOW!) and the failing business model of the airline.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-03 21:37:30 and read 7777 times.

Quoting A330300 (Reply 82):
Here is an excerpt of an email sent to all Frontier employees from Jeff Potter a few days ago:

I am moderately surprised that you would post an internal staff memo on an internet website.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: A330300
Posted 2006-01-03 21:43:49 and read 7728 times.

The letter was a thank you and recap of the last year for us to share with family and friends - nothing in there is exactly a secret, especially to A.net folks.  Smile

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2006-01-03 21:49:58 and read 7679 times.

A330300,

If that was indeed on the intranet, that's where it belongs. I learned my lesson. I once posted something from that site on here and about a day later I got a call from a prominent employee in Denver. Needless to say I never did that again. Be careful, trust me, they are watching.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Texan
Posted 2006-01-03 21:55:39 and read 7630 times.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Really? The very few times I boarded Southwest I was under the impression that them and Greyhound cater exactly to the same crowd.

Strange...the last WN flight I was on, I was one of about 120 passengers dressed in business attire. You know what? Same for just about every time I've flown them!

Quoting Manta (Reply 35):
With WN's populatiry at MDW, and now beginning service to DEN, it will just be a matter of time before WN posts a bunch of MDW-DEN flights. Do you think this will take away much from UA / TED service from MDW, or cut into the big ORD - DEN run that UA has dominated for so long?

No, I don't really think it will at ORD. The Ted service to MDW could be hurt, but ORD-DEN is hub-to-hub flying with tons of connecting pax. Let's face it, there are not enough business people flying just between ORD-DEN every day to warrant all the service on the route. UA's service should remain pretty constant and they will continue to be the dominant carrier on the route.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 50):
Why would a business pax that lives in Denver fly WN over UA or F9? WN will serve 3 or after today 5 cities from DEN, not a whole lot. If you can fly a mainline carrier that has a huge Intl. network and flys nonstop pretty much to the entire country from your city why would you pick a different airline?

Because when I just need to take a quick hop over to SLC, I don't care that UA flies to Paris, that F9 flies to Omaha, that DL flies to ATL, or that WN flies to BWI. I just care about getting to SLC. If WN has the lowest price, I will choose them. My company gives me a travel budget, which means I'll be taking whatever low fare is out there to arrive at my destination. That and I've flown WN before somewhere in the US and likely had a very good experience.

Texan

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Boeing7E7
Posted 2006-01-03 21:57:46 and read 7609 times.

Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 56):
Let's be honest and think this through. Who would pay an additional $100 per flight between Denver and SLC just because they have a "huge intl. network and fly nonstop pretty much to the entire country"?

A heavy business traveler that does that route 2-3 times a year, 30 other destinations the rest of the year, and takes his/her family on vacation to Paris.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: DouglasDC8
Posted 2006-01-03 22:05:18 and read 7565 times.

I had the lovely experience of being on a Southwest flight that cancelled due to a mechanical problem. At the time I did not know that WN will not put passengers on other carriers, even when the cancellation is their "fault". I was re-booked on a flight departing MDW late the next day and offered standby for the flights departing later the same day. It turns out the flights I was standing by for were all oversold. I wound up buying a ticket on Delta from ORD via ATL to MCO just to get home the same night. Loosing a day's pay was not an option for me.

The lesson learned was: Southwest, a usually reliable airline, will have cancelled flights (as all carriers do). When these things happen, the WN passenger has less options to reach his destination in a timely manner than the passenger of an airline that has ticketing agreements with other carriers. So for me, that's a reason i will tend to avoid WN. I have nothing against the airline or it's people. I just need to protect my interests.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-03 22:13:40 and read 7501 times.

Quoting A330300 (Reply 85):
nothing in there is exactly a secret, especially to A.net folks.

I am not suggesting there is a secret. I am astonished at your concept of loyalty to your employer, who trusted you with their thoughts.

If you received an email that did have something confidential, would you post that too?

Or are you the judge and jury of what is and what is not "secret"?

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ATCT
Posted 2006-01-03 22:21:39 and read 7459 times.

My moneys' on Frontier. But hey, im an east coaster that works for Delta, so what do I know! :P



ATCT

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-03 22:21:44 and read 7458 times.

Actually, I was thinking that there's an excellent response available for Southwest; something along the lines of: With United, you kind of, sort of, maybe might get a flight on United. Then again, you might end up on Mesa, Shuttle America, SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, Great Lakes, Ted, US Airways, who knows? Maybe it's a large jet, maybe it's not. Maybe you know what you're getting, maybe not.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: 777Purser
Posted 2006-01-03 22:28:19 and read 7401 times.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 88):
Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 56):
Let's be honest and think this through. Who would pay an additional $100 per flight between Denver and SLC just because they have a "huge intl. network and fly nonstop pretty much to the entire country"?

Anyone who works for a corporation with offices in multiple cities in various countries, that has them travel often and has no time to waste on five legs in order to get to one destination, or for arriving at the airport as early as possible in order not to end up in a middle seat next to a screaming child and a "person of size" (LOL) who gets FF miles for upgrades domestically and/or so he can vacation in his timeshare in Aruba with his 5 family members...

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MSYtristar
Posted 2006-01-03 22:34:20 and read 7352 times.

Quoting 777Purser (Reply 93):
has no time to waste on five legs in order to get to one destination

Surely you can't be talking about Southwest, because you can get to virtually any city they fly to with just one change of planes these days thanks to the huge operation they have out of MDW/BNA/PHX/BWI etc. The days of the "four stop flights" from MCO to LAX (for example) are a thing of the past.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MaverickM11
Posted 2006-01-03 22:42:54 and read 7292 times.

You wouldn't know they were a new carrier at DIA from their gate area today. Nothing much going on in the way of fanfare...

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Gigneil
Posted 2006-01-03 22:43:57 and read 7275 times.

Southwest has 2 gates.

2

That's it. 20 flights a day. 24 if you're Southwest.

There aren't any more gates.

N

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: 777Purser
Posted 2006-01-03 22:47:04 and read 7247 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 92):
Actually, I was thinking that there's an excellent response available for Southwest; something along the lines of: With United, you kind of, sort of, maybe might get a flight on United. Then again, you might end up on Mesa, Shuttle America, SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, Great Lakes, Ted, US Airways, who knows? Maybe it's a large jet, maybe it's not. Maybe you know what you're getting, maybe not.

Which is better than having NOWHERE to put you in the event of a fairly possible cancellation due to a mechanical as mentioned in a story shared by someone previously on this thread...

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-03 22:56:16 and read 7177 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 92):
With United, you kind of, sort of, maybe might get a flight on United. Then again, you might end up on Mesa, Shuttle America, SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, Great Lakes, Ted, US Airways, who knows? Maybe it's a large jet, maybe it's not. Maybe you know what you're getting, maybe not.

If it's got wings and its taking me to my final destination without me getting stranded somewhere overnight... I dont care if it's Bob's Cessna Skyhawk Service. Anything beats getting stuck in an airport for the night, or missing a meeting/commitment.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Cjpark
Posted 2006-01-03 23:11:25 and read 7042 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 67):
"greyhound type"? Just like the millions of business passengers who choose WN on routes like HOU-DAL, STL-MDW, LAX-PHX, BWI-PVD, LAX-OAK, etc, etc. I love how people are so quick to generalize WN clientele as "greyhound type". But what exatly defines a "greyhound type"? Someone who actually who chooses not to be raped by high fares? If so, throw me into that category!

I'd rather be considered a "greyhound type" passenger on an LCC than pay twice as much and getting no more (usually less) in return.

People at my company flying from DAL to HOU and those in Houston flying HOU to DAL refer to WN as the company bus. It is just a bus with wings that you get free peanuts on.

Quoting Texan (Reply 87):
Strange...the last WN flight I was on, I was one of about 120 passengers dressed in business attire. You know what? Same for just about every time I've flown them!

All of your flights must be full of lawyers. Contary to what most people would like to believe business attire does not always mean coat and tie.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: CTHEWORLD
Posted 2006-01-03 23:17:55 and read 6988 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 30):
On United, a similar snack box is Buy on Board, and will set you back $5.00. But on Southwest, its free.

Similar? Not really. Besides, you can buy the snack box or appropriate (dependind on time of day) fresh meal on UAL.

WN
http://www.airlinemeals.net/images/meals/southwestairlines017.jpg

UAL
http://www.airlinemeals.net/images/meals/unitedairlines750.jpg

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2006-01-03 23:25:03 and read 6938 times.

Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 56):
that's just it, why does it matter if the airline flies to china if all you are doing is flying to SLC? I really don't care if my carrier flies to Dubai if all I need to worry about is flying an hour and twenty minutes to catch a meeting in Salt Lake City.

Let's be honest and think this through. Who would pay an additional $100 per flight between Denver and SLC just because they have a "huge intl. network and fly nonstop pretty much to the entire country"?


Hmmm, I think we're on to something here.

Yes we are onto something, we are onto the fact that you do not travel a lot for business. We are also onto the fact that you do not earn many miles.
The airlines are after the business traveler interested in earning status and miles. To do that you have to fly the same airline and to do that you have to use an airline that fly's everywhere that you do.
I mention the Intl. destinations because that is where I see a lot a business travelers using their award tickets. It is not a secret that while traveling on business you have the company pay for you to earn miles than you are able to take a vacation using those miles for pleasure.....

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 64):
Southwest will prosper in Denver. Frontier will continue to prosper in Denver. United will remain in Denver though Denver will never be to United what it once was. Times change.

United will actually grow in Denver. They are/have signed an agreement with the city that will bring more traffic including Intl. to Denver

Quoting Gritzngravee (Reply 72):
Your both added to my respected user list. It's obvious they will continually get raped by airlines that are burning through cash like a cheap whore in Bangkok. People who make ignorant statements are ignorant. If riding greyhound or WN can save money and put food on the table then thats what you do. Again the people making these statements are probably UAL employees or even worst loyal customers of a failing airline that will pretty soon be half of what it was.

So you obviously know nothing about United or the industry as a whole.

"Failing Airline" ???? No, you have that all wrong UA is NOW one of the strongest legacy carriers out there, they have cut off their debt and got rid of all unfavorable contracts. They will exit BK in the coming months and will do so a very strong airline and still the #2 Airline in the world.

"If riding greyhound or WN can save money and put food on the table then thats what you do."
I don't think that UA is looking for the customer that is worried about putting food on the table. Again, airlines are looking for the business traveler that is not worried how they will afford food......? (That was a stupid statement)

Other than that I hope you two enjoy being on the RR0 list!

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 78):
I think the real question is not whether United will survive (that is a given) but whether Frontier can?

F9 will have no problems either. Do some research on the airline before making these comments that cannot be backed up.

Quoting Texan (Reply 87):
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 50):
Why would a business pax that lives in Denver fly WN over UA or F9? WN will serve 3 or after today 5 cities from DEN, not a whole lot. If you can fly a mainline carrier that has a huge Intl. network and flys nonstop pretty much to the entire country from your city why would you pick a different airline?

Because when I just need to take a quick hop over to SLC, I don't care that UA flies to Paris, that F9 flies to Omaha, that DL flies to ATL, or that WN flies to BWI. I just care about getting to SLC. If WN has the lowest price, I will choose them. My company gives me a travel budget, which means I'll be taking whatever low fare is out there to arrive at my destination. That and I've flown WN before somewhere in the US and likely had a very good experience.

Most companies are not that cheap. Most companies realize the benefits of their employees having elite status. Im sorry that your company does not value their employees.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: APFPilot1985
Posted 2006-01-03 23:31:41 and read 6903 times.

Quoting Iluv2pilot (Reply 20):
Boy all you WN bashers are right on the mark!!!

Let's face it, WN is hurting badly and just got out of bankruptcy court. They are putting planes in the desert, laying off employees, and shrinking their payroll to stay alive.

DUh!!!!!! That's UA not WN.....

Did you pre-teen child log in under your name and write this?

Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 56):
Let's be honest and think this through. Who would pay an additional $100 per flight between Denver and SLC just because they have a "huge intl. network and fly nonstop pretty much to the entire country"?

Someone who flies the route multiple times a month in addition to the other business related flights that they make and want to rack up EQM's and FF miles on an airline that can take them to Paris? (France not TX)

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-03 23:32:44 and read 6897 times.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 99):
People at my company flying from DAL to HOU and those in Houston flying HOU to DAL refer to WN as the company bus. It is just a bus with wings that you get free peanuts on.

Thanks for proving two points.

1. WN carries many people in these corridors for business - it's not just college students and the down-and-out crowd.

2. That is exactly what WN strives to be. Reliable, affordable air transportation. That doesn't mean they carry only the "greyhound" types - unless that is how you describe your friends and co-workers.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2006-01-03 23:42:20 and read 6831 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 94):
Surely you can't be talking about Southwest, because you can get to virtually any city they fly to with just one change of planes these days thanks to the huge operation they have out of MDW/BNA/PHX/BWI etc. The days of the "four stop flights" from MCO to LAX (for example) are a thing of the past.

Yes like you said, "Any city that they fly to"
There lies the problem.......

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 96):
Southwest has 2 gates.

2

That's it. 20 flights a day. 24 if you're Southwest.

There aren't any more gates.

The city will build more gates for any airline that wants them.
I don't know why it is so hard for everyone to understand that DEN is not restricted by the amount of gates it has as the city has said over and over if airlines want them they will build them......

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Iowaman
Posted 2006-01-03 23:42:24 and read 6831 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 55):
The article in today's Rocky Mountain News indicated that Southwest feels like they may expand up to 200 flights daily from DEN. 200 flts daily would be a major challange to both F9 and to UA (which just signed a agreement with the city to boost the number of flights in and out of DEN).

200? There must be a bunch more gates coming sometime and WN is doing extremely well in DEN if that is true.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 60):
What I think will be interesting is how well WN does at running on time. A friend of mine is a pilot with AA, and taxi times at DEN can be very, very long.

True, however considering the lines they wait in in places like PHL, FLL, and sometimes LAS etc., it can't be any worse.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 79):
What will DL do about WN on the SLC-DEN run?

Probably add a gazillion RJ's and add a bunch of seats.

Quoting A330300 (Reply 82):
Yes, we have a superior product.
Yes, we have loyalty in the Denver market.
But only people in Denver know about it.

I couldn't of said that better myself.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-03 23:43:38 and read 6824 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 101):
I don't think that UA is looking for the customer that is worried about putting food on the table.

I never understand statements like these. While it is obvious the frequent, full-fare business traveler is the customer everyone is fighting for, they don't fill the planes. Why do these carriers all offer super-discounted fares? I'm guessing to fill seats and add incremental revenue.

If they don't care about these customers, then why bother offering lower airfares? Could it be that they DO care about filling the planes? Or is it that they don't want to lose the cost-concious business traveler? Oh wait, the only business travelers that count are those who's companies will pay anything for them to get from A to B, just so they can vacation in Paris (France, not Texas). Business travlers who's companies actually budget their expenditures don't count either - they're too pitiful.

I think it is a little more complex than it is made out to be on these forums. Everybody has different budgets, needs, desires, etc. In the end, they'll choose the carrier that is right for them. For some it's going to be the legacy like UA. Others the premium niche LCC like Frontier. And for some, it will be Southwest. What's the big deal with that?

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-03 23:47:35 and read 6784 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 104):
Yes like you said, "Any city that they fly to"
There lies the problem.......

I guess Frontier is screwed then.  Smile

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Cloudy
Posted 2006-01-03 23:47:51 and read 6781 times.

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 49):

ALL AIRLINES OVERBOOK! It's been a fact of life forever and always will be. You hear the announcements more on WN because WN happens to be FILLING the planes.

If you look at Southwest's load factor, it is usually LOWER than that of its competitors. This is because it likes to have an extra flight or two between many markets. This is needed because they do NOT buy tickets on other carriers - it makes it more likely they will be able to accomodate customers who miss flights or are bumped. Such flights also add to frequencies - which attract business traffic. One half or even quarter full flight at the end of the day brings down the day's average low factor down by quit a bit.

Another reason is because of Southwest's single fleet type. Where other airlines would use an RJ, Southwest uses a 737 to maintain commonality. They can afford to do this because of their lower total costs.

As to all airlines overbooking, Jetblue does not overbook but I believe this works because their policies make it less attractive to book a flight and miss it. Someone else could provide more detail here.

Quoting A330300 (Reply 82):
Yes, we have a superior product.
Yes, we have loyalty in the Denver market.
But only people in Denver know about it.

This is a good point. I suspect that Southwest entered in order to support other, lower cost markets rather than to get a huge chunk of the traffic flying FROM Denver. They surely have enough traffic already originating from LAS,MDW, etc. that want to fly TO Denver to support their service. In areas other than Denver, Frontier is unknown. Southwest's main bases will be in low cost cities.

Those of you expecting a royal battle are likely to be dissapointed. This is not Philledelphia. Methinks this will be like Detroit or Seattle. There will be a significant number of flights, but not a hub or even a focus city. Nor will there be a fare war no one can afford. Just a new city to generate more traffic for the main money makers
in BWI, MDW, HOU, etc. Nothing more. At least not for a long time yet.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-03 23:55:20 and read 6723 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 104):

Yes like you said, "Any city that they fly to"
There lies the problem.......

 checkmark 

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 94):

Surely you can't be talking about Southwest, because you can get to virtually any city they fly to with just one change of planes these days thanks to the huge operation they have out of MDW/BNA/PHX/BWI etc. The days of the "four stop flights" from MCO to LAX (for example) are a thing of the past.

There's a difference between changing planes, and stopping. There are still multi-stop flights, that might just involve one change of planes. My personal favorite is PHL-OKC, a destination which I make semi-frequently. You go to Midway, switch planes, then go to any number of places for stops... the only kicker is they never tell you WHERE the stops are. They just say you'll be stopping. Sorry, if I have to land I like to know where it's going to be... a congested mess like FLL, or a straight-in middle-of-nowhere approach and then #1 for takeoff taxi line at a place like ELP. Who knows? They won't tell you on their booking site unless you dig deep through the bows of southwest.com I can get there on one connection and no additional stops from PHL on CO, AA, and others... direct and nonstop from EWR... and even one connection with no additional stops from ABE on multiple airlines. Even random middle of Texas airports would be one connection/stop from a place like PHL/EWR, via AA/CO in DFW/IAH... not the random stops on WN. And... how hard would it be to just tell the consumers where they're going to stop at? If nothing else, some people like to know these things to tell overly-concerned family members before they take off.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: CTHEWORLD
Posted 2006-01-04 00:05:49 and read 6663 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 109):
If nothing else, some people like to know these things to tell overly-concerned family members before they take off.

Hmmmm...sounds like a Greyhound bus stopping everywhere along the way. No thanks.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 00:07:28 and read 6650 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 109):
the only kicker is they never tell you WHERE the stops are. They just say you'll be stopping.

That is a frustration. I like to know where my stops are. Heck, maybe I'd have a chance to visit a new airport or city-pair or something. Instead, you have to dig through the schedule to figure it out. You should be able to make an educated decision on the stops you are going to make.

- Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 00:12:02 and read 6619 times.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 110):
Hmmmm...sounds like a Greyhound bus stopping everywhere along the way. No thanks.

The vast majority of Legacy itineraries require at least one stop, sometimes two, as they route you through a mega hub.

Hmmmm...sounds like a cargo flight. No thanks.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: 2H4
Posted 2006-01-04 00:13:16 and read 6597 times.




Quoting Cjpark (Reply 99):
People at my company flying from DAL to HOU and those in Houston flying HOU to DAL refer to WN as the company bus. It is just a bus with wings that you get free peanuts on.



...And WN has never claimed to be anything more than affordable, basic transportation. So is there a specific problem you're referring to, or are you just complaining about WN because you have nothing better to do?



2H4


Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-04 00:13:18 and read 6597 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 104):
The city will build more gates for any airline that wants them.

Um - the city will build gates for anyone who will pay for them.

DIA will not build new gates for Frontier until Frontier commits to a contract that covers the entire cost of building the gates.

They will build two new gates on C without a commitment from any airline, although Southwest is "seen" as an obvious tenant.

Go figure.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Antoniemey
Posted 2006-01-04 00:15:47 and read 6571 times.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 110):
Hmmmm...sounds like a Greyhound bus stopping everywhere along the way. No thanks.

Which, according to Greyhound's latest advertising push, they no longer do, or at least not nearly so much.

Still, if it gets you there cheap, the average consumer will go for it... though they still whine, moan, and complain if they failed to read the fine print.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2006-01-04 00:24:04 and read 6514 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 58):
The DEN market is big enough for WN/F9/UA to all co-exist happily right now.

It's very much boom time in DEN right now, despite the sluggishness of the Computer industry bounce back. The ski resorts are having the best year ever and the tourism market is booming. 4 new sky scrapers are being built or in final stages of planning.

DEN has triple hubbed before. I think because of it's geographical location, it will again.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 58):

But if WN decides to build up to 200 flights per day (which I don't see happening for numerous reasons, gate space being a big one), then things could get ugly pretty quickly.

As metioned before, DEN was already moving ahead with plans to increase gate space even before Southwest announced the new flights. I would prefer that they expand A concourse and offer to move all of UA's gates to B concourse, but adding capacity to C explicitly for Southwest isn't a bad thing.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 58):
F9 probably won't lose any of its client base to WN. UA might. Consumers will do anything if the price is right.

A couple of years ago maybe. But my experience on the "Legacies" have convinced me to restrict my DEN flights to F9 or FL. There is no excuse for UA and DL to have such a lousy product from DEN to ATL (where I do the bulk of my travelling).

Quoting A330300 (Reply 82):
Yes, we have a superior product.
Yes, we have loyalty in the Denver market.
But only people in Denver know about it.

It's starting to get around. I actually saw a F9 commercial in ATL while I was there over the holidays. On top of that F9 has a pretty solid advertising campaign that should be applicable to the rest of the country.

The bad news for F9? Southwest has been making major NFL buys and the Broncos have done really well this year. That allowed them to target the NFL crowd inside of denver (and lets face it, denver bleed orange and blue) very efficently.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 96):
That's it. 20 flights a day. 24 if you're Southwest.
There aren't any more gates.

Until more gates are added. Until ATA leaves. They can also use the shared gates on A concourse. Remember that DEN is also the newest Airport in America. It was designed with expandability in mind.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 105):
200? There must be a bunch more gates coming sometime and WN is doing extremely well in DEN if that is true.

I think you are already seeing it. They have announced four more cities even before the first flights took to air. The load factors are "healthy" and sold out for at least the rest of this week. That may be due to advertising, but there was a lot of visability into this particular carrier arriving in DEN.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 105):

True, however considering the lines they wait in in places like PHL, FLL, and sometimes LAS etc., it can't be any worse.

I have never found the taxi time in DEN to be all that horrible.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: CTHEWORLD
Posted 2006-01-04 00:25:47 and read 6498 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 112):
The vast majority of Legacy itineraries require at least one stop, sometimes two, as they route you through a mega hub.

Hmmmm...sounds like a cargo flight. No thanks.

Really? I can get to nearly any first, second and third tier cities on majors, without stops from my hometown airport. I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but I think they are skewed by bias.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 00:39:16 and read 6402 times.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 117):
Really? I can get to nearly any first, second and third tier cities on majors

Well since you didn't list your "hometown" I guess we all have to take your word for it, don't we. But in the meantime, let's be clear: If you are saying that "all majors put together from your hometown airport, whatever it may be" is the equal to WN in this conversation, then I'm not sure where to go from there. I assumed that if you were implying that WN, one airline, required connections, well than surely you know that any other ONE AIRLINE would require a connection on most itineraries.

An exception might be a hub city, or perhaps a mega-metro area like NYC, but I doubt that UA can get you most places nonstop unless you are flying out of one of a handful of hubs.

To put this all in perspective, and to quote you, i was responding to a point made by you that I believe was "skewed by bias."

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: We're Nuts
Posted 2006-01-04 00:39:41 and read 6396 times.

It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Go WN!  thumbsup 

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: CTHEWORLD
Posted 2006-01-04 00:43:45 and read 6362 times.

Dave-

I said 1, 2, 3 tier cities, major business centers.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-04 00:44:28 and read 6359 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 116):
As metioned before, DEN was already moving ahead with plans to increase gate space even before Southwest announced the new flights.



Where? The two temp gates on C? They were announced after Southwest.

A? As noted in #114, DIA will not build permanent gates until they have a signed commitment from an airline that covers the entire cost of construction.

Or at least, that's how they are dealing with Frontier and the A expansion.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 116):
I would prefer that they expand A concourse and offer to move all of UA's gates to B concourse,

See above, and #114 - and United has stated specifically that they will not leave A.

I do assume that United's A gates have an eventual price, but so far no one has bid enough to find out what it is, and we know that it must be more than $5 million per gate.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: APFPilot1985
Posted 2006-01-04 00:51:27 and read 6302 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 112):
The vast majority of Legacy itineraries require at least one stop, sometimes two, as they route you through a mega hub.

Hmmmm...sounds like a cargo flight. No thanks.

-Dave

That is ridiculous, I live in a small town in FL with one airline and I can literally get to 99% of destinations with one stop. It is VERY rare of legacy itineraries to have two stops.... however numerous times i have been offered a lowest fare on WN that required 2 stops.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 119):
t's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Yeah better peanuts  


In all reality I love WN and was sooooo please that they now fly out of RSW so I can fly them more often. I just think it is funny how all of the SWA fanboys come out of the woodwork on every WN thread make it sound like they do no wrong, and are the best thing since sliced bread.

[Edited 2006-01-04 01:04:51]

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2006-01-04 00:57:26 and read 6264 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 121):
Where? The two temp gates on C? They were announced after Southwest.

I should have clarified this statement, before Southwest announced SLC and BWI.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 121):
A? As noted in #114, DIA will not build permanent gates until they have a signed commitment from an airline that covers the entire cost of construction.

Or at least, that's how they are dealing with Frontier and the A expansion.

It has been, but that was simply because F9 was the only possible recepient of the gates. The airport has feelers out on C because many different carriers have expressed interest in expaded gates on C concourse.

My understanding from a friend (who happens to have the a copy of the master development plan up on his office wall) is that DEN is planning on moving ahead aggressivly to deal with expansion needs on C. There is a sense that if they don't do it, LAS will.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 121):
See above, and #114 - and United has stated specifically that they will not leave A.

I do assume that United's A gates have an eventual price, but so far no one has bid enough to find out what it is, and we know that it must be more than $5 million per gate.

My suggestion was to add enough capacity to Concourse B to allow UA to consolidate operations there. Right now there is not room on B for everything they have on A, and they have bitterly fought to keep underutilized gates on A because it is the only real expansion capacity they have at DEN.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 01:02:33 and read 6228 times.

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 120):
Dave-

I said 1, 2, 3 tier cities, major business centers.

That's fine, but the question is, are you offering as the example one airline that serves all those cities nonstop from your hometown airport, or are a variety of airlines fitting the bill?

If WN is slammed from making stops, my point is that most carriers require stops, usually a connection at a hub. If you have the good fortune of being in a city that is blessed with nonstops to most major business centers on one airline, that's great. But that is not the situation in most cities.

Living in the Seattle area, we have great service all over the country - but not on any one airline. West coast? AS, WN, and UA are fine, but WN serves only about a dozen cities nonstop from SEA, and UA is less. If I pick one carrier to fly, I'm going to be changing planes a lot. Or not getting there at all.

Now, if I live in Atlanta and Delta is my carrier of choice, that is a different story. But how many airports in the US have service to even a few dozen cities on ONE airline? Other than hubs, not many. My point is that requiring a stop and/or a connection is not unique to WN.

And just because they are not set up like a legacy doesn't make them "Greyhound". If you are going to make statements like that, which are obviously meant to flame WN for the sake of flaming, then at least admit your own bias, instead of accusing others of being biased. I was only responding in kind to your statement.

BTW - When are the Greyhound fans going to get lit up over these threads?  Smile

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-04 01:07:09 and read 6182 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 123):
It has been, but that was simply because F9 was the only possible recepient of the gates.

I'd be fairly sure that if gates had been available on A, Southwest would have grebbed 'em.

There is also the matter of the shortage of international gates on A that is developing.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 123):
DEN is planning on moving ahead aggressivly to deal with expansion needs on C.

They will do this with or without commitments from airlines to cover the entire cost of construction?

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 123):
Right now there is not room on B for everything they have on A, and they have bitterly fought to keep underutilized gates on A because it is the only real expansion capacity they have at DEN.

I could be wrong but I thought United had reduced their mainline departures from DEN? This would mean - I would have thought - more space on B, not less.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 01:11:49 and read 6152 times.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 122):
That is ridiculous, I live in a small town in FL with one airline and I can literally get to 99% of destinations with one stop. It is VERY rare of legacy itineraries to have two stops....

How is my comment ridiculous? I said most itineraries require one stop, sometimes two. Isn't that what you just said?

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 122):
I just think it is funny how all of the SWA fanboys come out of the woodwork on every WN thread make it sound like they do no wrong, and are the best thing since sliced bread.

I am a WN fanboy. I'm also an AS fanboy. And a NW fanboy. Heck, I'm an F9 fanboy and I've never even flown them. I could even be labeled a UA fanboy, though I haven't flown them since 1984. Am I supposed to just shut up and keep my comments to myself if they don't agree with someone elses?

I think if you look through the threads, there are UA fanboys (galore), DH fanboys, etc. What's the big deal. If you like a carrier and it's product, why should you be ashamed of supporting it on these threads?

Ultimately, I don't think my position is fundamentally different than yours. I don't like it when posters make blanket statements that are obviously meant to flame, denigrate, or conversely, inflate the truth about a given carrier.

It seems like people make comments about other posters, like you did, to somehow separate yourself from them. Why? Just say you disagree and be done with it, instead of feeling the need to put them in a box.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2006-01-04 01:17:47 and read 6114 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 125):
I'd be fairly sure that if gates had been available on A, Southwest would have grebbed 'em.

There is also the matter of the shortage of international gates on A that is developing.

Yep. Most of the discussions I heard about with regard to A concourse space occured before Southwest made their splashy intro. Regardless this is more of a what if because at least two of the concourses have zero free gates.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 125):

They will do this with or without commitments from airlines to cover the entire cost of construction?

The original master plan had benchmarks that would automatically trigger expansion to the airport. Denver formerly got very conservitive when it looked like UA was going to go under (but even then was expanding the aiport a bit). The new mayor is much more aggressive and according the new papers since C has so many different carriers and needs expasion now they are moving ahead.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 125):

I could be wrong but I thought United had reduced their mainline departures from DEN? This would mean - I would have thought - more space on B, not less.

The new agreement with the city directly targets mainline traffic. Not scientific but i watched the morning bank out of UA last week and it seemed as busy as ever.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Jacobin777
Posted 2006-01-04 01:19:59 and read 6100 times.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 53):
I think you are right considering how well Frontier has competed against Ted in many of the same markets. Ted is actually losing market share y/y at DEN in spite of adding more seats and flights.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 57):
What was that you said - since the advent of Ted, United has continued to lose market share at DEN to F9? No - say it isn't so!

just to make sure, I didn't make that particular comment.. Smile

Quoting Mariner (Reply 57):

There doesn't seem to be a lot to say here - I thought the thread was about United but somehow some "WN will kill F9 posts" turned up.

I think part of the thread has to do with ...

"Bullseye On Frontier. Take it to the bank: Southwest is likely planning on taking Frontier out. No, not co-exist as one big happy family. This is the new Southwest, one that can not afford not to be competitively carnivorous.

The game is Frontier’s and United’s to lose, and it's a certainty that one or both of these airlines will come out competitively swinging to beat the band. Again the vulnerable points: WN lack of seat assignment, and both Frontier and United offer in-flight entertainment. The fares will be the same. It's the product that will ultimately make the difference, and that's what Southwest will likely address in the next 12 months."

http://www.aviationplanning.com/Predictions2006.htm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 63):
I lived in extended-Chicagoland and went to college with a slew of Northsiders. When I'd fly from Midway I would get a constant barrage of comments like "Don't park your car," "I'm not giving you a ride to there" or "Watch your back" etc, etc.

you are correct, I've heard it on many occasions.....fortunately MDW's reputation has gotten better over the past 5-7 years....certainly better than its "ghetto" days...and 10-15 years ago, it certainly was "ghetto"...but is a great secondary airport now.....

Quoting Mariner (Reply 84):

I am moderately surprised that you would post an internal staff memo on an internet website.

me too..but I'm not complaining..some intersting information there.....

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-04 01:36:43 and read 5993 times.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 122):


In all reality I love WN and was sooooo please that they now fly out of RSW so I can fly them more often. I just think it is funny how all of the SWA fanboys come out of the woodwork on every WN thread make it sound like they do no wrong, and are the best thing since sliced bread.

It's nice to see that even people who self-admittedly "love WN" think the fanboys are overboard on here too. I personally have no beef with WN, they just do me no good with my location and their route structure. My beef is with the WN "Praetorian Guard" as I like to call them, here on A.net, including a large amount of WN employees. That said, there are WN fans and employees on here who I respect, and who respect me. Want to know a secret WN fans? I'd fly you guys before I'd fly American, because they're even more worthless to me in my location and whatnot. If Southwest was a Skyteam carrier, I guarantee I'd give them 3-5 r/t's a year, as well. But want to know another secret? Your airline is NOT infallable. Nor is my favorite airline, Continental. I complain about the faults of CO all the time... the lack of ABE-IAH on a 145XR, the B1900's on PIT-CLE, the use of RJ's on the Great Lakes routes out of CLE which would be better served with a Q400 or something. SOME of you WN fanboys should wake up and smell the coffee... and realize... your airline has its faults too.

[Edited 2006-01-04 01:44:28]

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-04 01:38:25 and read 5973 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 123):
My suggestion was to add enough capacity to Concourse B to allow UA to consolidate operations there. Right now there is not room on B for everything they have on A, and they have bitterly fought to keep underutilized gates on A because it is the only real expansion capacity they have at DEN.

That is perhaps what is being said publicly, but it should be pretty obvious that the primary reason UA is holding on to those gates on A is to keep them out of Frontier's hands. The fewer gates Frontier has at DEN, the less of an impact they can have on United's yields and the more difficult it is for them to expand. And UAL management knows that Frontier is wary of taking on an expensive commitment to build new gates while the business picture (due to high fuel costs and the arrival of SWA at DEN) at its primary hub is murky. Moreover, having Ted on the A Concourse reminds Frontier customers that their is a low-cost alternative provided by UniTed (though it does the same to Ted customers as well).

Quoting Mariner (Reply 114):
They will build two new gates on C without a commitment from any airline, although Southwest is "seen" as an obvious tenant.

My thinking is similar to AirFrnt's on this. Given that Southwest announced 7 new flights on their first day of service, I believe they have quietly made it known to DIA management that they're probably going to be leasing additional gates. I also suspect that they don't want to be in a situation where they don't have any empty gates available to existing or new potential tenants like Virgin America, for example. And given that the cost of the two temporary gates is relatively low, the airport is likely willing to front the money to make it happen.

If Southwest wants to grow beyond 4-6 gates on C, I think it is absolutely reasonable for the airport to ask them to back any project to provide more gates for them -- and they have done so at MDW, BWI, HOU, ISP, OAK, MCO, TPA, FLL, STL, etc. What Frontier really wants is United's gates on A. Unfortunately, United's leases give them the upper hand in keeping those gates.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-04 01:50:38 and read 5893 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 130):
What Frontier really wants is United's gates on A.

Ideally, yes. Partly because of the price difference between those gates and the new (to be built) gates.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 130):
Unfortunately, United's leases give them the upper hand in keeping those gates.

Keenly aware of that. However, as stated elsewhere, the gates do have an eventual price. All gates do. It is simply that no one, not Frontier or DIA has bid enough to find out what that price is. We do know it is more than $5 million per gate.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 130):
I believe they have quietly made it known to DIA management that they're probably going to be leasing additional gates.

I'm sure they have. That is not the point.

DIA claims that they cannot build gates unless they have a commitment from an airline.

Yet they are building two gates without a commitment from an airline.

Yes, the cost of those gates is low, yes, they can afford to do it without going back to the bond market. Yes, they can do it without United suing them for going to the bond market.

They could also, of course, build a couple of temp gates at the east end of A, as they did at the west end.

But - given the unresolved situation with Frontier and the chaos that is developing in Terminal A, both with regular and international gates - to announce two temp gates on C suggests, only suggests, a curious set of priorities.

The fact that the Airport Director claims that Frontier "does not return her calls" while Frontier has asked for a meeting with the mayor about the situation suggests - to me, only to me - that there is some disarray.

I readily admit my bias, in case you were not aware of it.  Smile

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UAL747DEN
Posted 2006-01-04 01:53:27 and read 5876 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 112):
The vast majority of Legacy itineraries require at least one stop, sometimes two, as they route you through a mega hub.

1 stop if you do not live in a hub city but 99.998% of the time you would not have 2 stops unless flying WN. Being that we are talking about Denver you can get to most places nonstop.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 114):
DIA will not build new gates for Frontier until Frontier commits to a contract that covers the entire cost of building the gates.

Yes F9 has to commit to a contract that will cover the cost but F9 is not paying outright for the gates to be built. The contract that F9 will have to sign will make sure that F9 utilizes the gates therefore the city will collect fees but as far as I know the city is not wanting actual buildout funds from F9 at this point.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 125):
They will do this with or without commitments from airlines to cover the entire cost of construction?

Yes that is the case. The city is confident that they will be occupied by the time they are built so they are going ahead with the plan.

As you mentioned Intl. gates are going to become a problem in the near future and the city will have to deal with that. I have a feeling that their was of dealing with it will be fronting the buildout cost to add more gates to A. If they do that they can get the domestic carriers out of those gates and have them only for Intl. arrivals.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: AirFrnt
Posted 2006-01-04 02:04:24 and read 5797 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 131):
They could also, of course, build a couple of temp gates at the east end of A, as they did at the west end.

The east end of A IIRC, is taken right now with RJ space is it not? I have to go dig my plans up. It may just be that I am thinking of Concourse B.

As far as DEN's priorities go, The entire airport is more or less at gate capacity right now. But we also have just about every major carrier flying into the airport right now.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 131):
Yet they are building two gates without a commitment from an airline.

Yes, the cost of those gates is low, yes, they can afford to do it without going back to the bond market. Yes, they can do it without United suing them for going to the bond market.

I speculate that it's quite possible that DEN has in fact received such a commitment, albiet verbal from Southwest or from AS or from a number of other carriers.

It's also time for UA and F9 to get over their spitting match over gates. When DEN has in the past worked with one or the other to free up gates from UA (which they did) F9 made inflamatory remarks about UA afterwords. When DEN has asked F9 to commit for gates that really are only useful to F9 right now (as opposed to new international gates in A concourse or new C concourse gates) F9 has pulled the "second hub" threat out as a response.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of F9's. I am a fan of DEN. I am not a fan of UA right now. But everyone is looking for win/loose situations rather then being civil it seems.

Also remember that DEN's mayor is very very concerned about government efficency. He will greenlight projects that add capacity to DEN at little cost. Anything larger is going to cause some serious indigestion right now.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-04 02:07:59 and read 5778 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 132):
Yes F9 has to commit to a contract that will cover the cost but F9 is not paying outright for the gates to be built.

They are requiring Frontier to sign a contract to lease the gates. This contract will - over the term of the lease - cover the entire cost of construction.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 132):
I have a feeling that their was of dealing with it will be fronting the buildout cost to add more gates to A.

DIA says they cannot commit to any construction that requires them going to the bond market unless they have a signed commitment from the airlines involved to cover the cost of the construction - see Frontier above.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-04 02:34:47 and read 5623 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 133):

The east end of A IIRC, is taken right now with RJ space is it not? I have to go dig my plans up. It may just be that I am thinking of Concourse B.

I was going to say basically the same; you'd have to find somewhere else to put Horizon and Great Lakes in that situation.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 131):
DIA claims that they cannot build gates unless they have a commitment from an airline.

I would expect that the actual position is not quite so black-and-white as you put it; it is probably more along the lines of, "DIA will not commit to a capital project requiring over $XX million dollars without a revenue stream that would cover the payments on the bonds." Frontier is in a position where they must either (1) get United to give up its A gates, (2) bite the bullet and sign a lease for new-build gates, or (3) take whatever they can get on C. At some point, they really do need to come to a decision with respect to their plans at DIA. It is unfortunate for FRNT that Southwest's entrance into DEN muddies the waters quite a bit.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2006-01-04 02:37:08 and read 5614 times.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 133):
The entire airport is more or less at gate capacity right now.

The entire airport's gates are spoken for at this time, but the the entire airport's gates are nowhere near being utilized to full capacity right now.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 133):
When DEN has in the past worked with one or the other to free up gates from UA (which they did) F9 made inflamatory remarks about UA afterwords.

Like pointing out the fact that in the past UA had much more traffic flowing through Concourse B alone than they have today with all of Concourse B, and four additional gates on Concourse A. Or that Frontier is almost twice as efficient with it's gates in terms of flights per day than UA is? I wouldn't call that inflamatory, I'd call it an appeal to the Mayor's sense of efficiency.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: APFPilot1985
Posted 2006-01-04 02:41:39 and read 5580 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 132):
1 stop if you do not live in a hub city but 99.998% of the time you would not have 2 stops unless flying WN. Being that we are talking about Denver you can get to most places nonstop.

exactly what i was trying to say.....

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-04 02:43:49 and read 5561 times.

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 136):
Like pointing out the fact that in the past UA had much more traffic flowing through Concourse B alone than they have today with all of Concourse B, and four additional gates on Concourse A. Or that Frontier is almost twice as efficient with it's gates in terms of flights per day than UA is? I wouldn't call that inflamatory, I'd call it an appeal to the Mayor's sense of efficiency.

The problem is...United has leases on the gates. As long as United remains in compliance with the gate utilization specified in the leases, the City has little legal recourse. About all they can do is to try to publicly or privately pressure United to use the gates more or give some up.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-04 02:52:53 and read 5506 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 135):
I would expect that the actual position is not quite so black-and-white as you put it

I put it as it was said to me by someone at DIA who is privy to the deal.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 135):
Frontier is in a position where they must either (1) get United to give up its A gates,

Um - this is what they have been trying to do since incoming Mayor Hickenlooper cancelled the 10 gate A extension that had been approved by previous director Baumgartner and was to be built (essentially) for Frontier.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 135):
(2) bite the bullet and sign a lease for new-build gates,

No argument. The debate is in the terms of the lease. Or, the lack of debate.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 135):
(3) take whatever they can get on C.

Unlikely.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 135):
At some point, they really do need to come to a decision with respect to their plans at DIA.

I can't imagine anyone would argue with that. Part of the problem being that United only decided - formally, finally - to keep their A gates at about the same time that Southwest announced they were coming to DEN.

Can you say coincidence?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 135):
It is unfortunate for FRNT that Southwest's entrance into DEN muddies the waters quite a bit.

See above.

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 03:25:52 and read 5321 times.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 137):
exactly what i was trying to say.....

Which, again, is no different than what I said. I don't disagree with anything you just pointed out. Tell me where I'm going wrong, because I don't see it.

If your point is that WN makes you connect more, well yes, to a large degree, they do. However, taking SEA as an example, they do offer nonstops to 12-13 cities, which is far more than most carriers. It depends on where you live and which carrier you decide to choose.

For me, they might very well save me from connecting, and most times when I've checked itineraries for a trip, they can do it in one stop if they serve the destination. Certainly, they do have itineraries with more than one stop, far more often than a legacy. That's the beauty of the hub concept. Again, no argument there.

To give some perspective to my comments, though, it all started with this:

Quoting CTHEWORLD (Reply 110):
Hmmmm...sounds like a Greyhound bus stopping everywhere along the way. No thanks.

and my response as:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 112):
The vast majority of Legacy itineraries require at least one stop, sometimes two, as they route you through a mega hub.

Hmmmm...sounds like a cargo flight. No thanks.

In case you missed it, I was choosing to add a little sarcasm in responding to him. Then you decided to jump on the bandwagon, and I have yet to figure out where you and I disagree, other than you want to call me a "fanboy". Whatever.

The only point we seem to disagree on is the 2 stop legacy itinerary. I never said it was common, only that it can happen. There have been threads where people discussed cities that required a double-connection on a given airline (not ALL airlines), such as flying XXX-DTW-MSP-YYY, or XXX-ATL-CVG-YYY, or something along those lines. Not always. Not often. Fairy rare. But not "never".

I wish sometimes that I could pick up the phone and call people, as it is so much easier to get the point across with words, rather than moments like now, when the oven timer is beeping and I'm late getting my daughter from her friends house.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-04 03:33:38 and read 5286 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 140):
There have been threads where people discussed cities that required a double-connection on a given airline (not ALL airlines), such as flying XXX-DTW-MSP-YYY, or XXX-ATL-CVG-YYY, or something along those lines. Not always. Not often. Fairy rare. But not "never".

Yeah but as rare as those situations are, more often than not those are small outstations that no LCC would ever think about serving on one or both ends of the routing at XXX and YYY... making your point rather moot. Any markets where LCC's (especially WN) would serve, is a market that is pretty well-connected to the national aviation network. And just because one city might require a double-connect on NW doesn't mean it'll cause a double connect on Delta, or maybe United, etc.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: UA772IAD
Posted 2006-01-04 04:15:14 and read 5083 times.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 67):
"greyhound type"? Just like the millions of business passengers who choose WN on routes like HOU-DAL, STL-MDW, LAX-PHX, BWI-PVD, LAX-OAK, etc, etc. I love how people are so quick to generalize WN clientele as "greyhound type". But what exatly defines a "greyhound type"? Someone who actually who chooses not to be raped by high fares? If so, throw me into that category!



Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 70):
Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 65):
I'm quite frankly surprised that WN hasn't picked up on this known fact. Of course, their passengers will eat anything.

As said above- I did not create the term "greyhound type" (see SBN580 and Incitatus's replies) I was simply referencing it to what someone else said above me. Having flown WN, AA, DL, AZ, BD, B6, AS, HA, AQ, UA and NH a lot, I agree that for the most part, all airlines have the same type of customers. However, all of my WN flights (I've been on appx. 35 WN flights) have been characterized as having either one or two drunk people- which causes a lot of attention from the crew, obnoxious teenagers, someone sitting next to me (or across from me) with so much stuff that it takes up the entire row, some big hairy guy wearing a tanktop with BO, or loud screaming children. Now this isn't to say that all these other airlines that I have flown on, don't carry these passengers, but 98% of the WN flights I've taken do have some sort of pax issue.

For me I took that reference to Greyhound as, "WN is a way to get there, cheap, fairly fast and with no frills attached" (as many of you all have said about WN before). Greyhound is the same thing, but on wheels. There's nothing wrong with that--I have no problem taking WN (unless its Transcon)- I have a RapidRewards card, and although I have DO have a problem with their lack of professional image, it fits their business model and their employees are ALWAYS friendly, and usually accommodating.

Since WN flies a lot of FAMILIES, and KIDS, and TOURISTS, and a fair share of overweight people (I think because WN is popular and Obesity is an epidemic in our country- a major one), as well as first time travelers, and people who don't often fly (only because there is no choice). I've seen a lot of business travelers on WN too, but not nearly compared to the other airlines mentioned above (which is why WN seems to be more of a leisure carrier). The food served on WN is ALL processed, refined junk food--cookies, crackers, soda, etc. Which works for them-because nearly everyone takes a snack and then seconds. Most passengers, from my experience have no objection to eating junk food (again, that's our society though)-as there is usually little leftover at the end of the flight. That is what I mean by will eat anything- because its processed food.

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 71):
Airlines require you to pay for a second seat if you are a "Customer of Size".

Yes they do, but no other airline, that I recall, received national media attention- not to mention a lot of noise from the NAAFA (National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance). But you're right- the policy is fair and justified.

If I came across as bashing WN- it wasn't my intention (nor was generalizing)- however I do notice major differences between flying WN and AS, for example. As I said, my only problem with WN is their lack of a professional image (but CS usually makes up for it).

Back to the subject matter,
I hope that Frontier can survive, I don't really doubt UA (especially if they play smartly)- but F9 may have to worry a bit-- even though its only to three destinations. Overall, I hope they all prosper in their respective markets in DEN!

Cheers

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 04:16:07 and read 5078 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 141):
making your point rather moot

With all due respect, I'm not sure if you even know the point I was making.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 141):
Any markets where LCC's (especially WN) would serve, is a market that is pretty well-connected to the national aviation network

Agreed.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 141):
And just because one city might require a double-connect on NW doesn't mean it'll cause a double connect on Delta, or maybe United, etc.

I went through and reread all of the posts that I made, and those that I responded to, and I think we are talking past each other here.

The essential point I was debating was that WN was a Greyhound bus because they offered itineraries that required one or more stops along the way. My comment was that most legacy routings require a stop, and sometimes two. Does WN make you stop more on average? I'm assuming yes, but I don't know what percentage of their passengers are nonstop, point to point types.

You and others seem to use the legacy carriers interchangably to suit the need. For example, the guy in Florida who can get to 99.999% of destinations in onestop. Well of course he can - on DL via Atlanta. But if he chooses NW or CO or whoever, that may not be the case.

My point was that all carriers have itineraries that require stops, sometimes backtracking, or no option at all. Not all hubs are as all-encompassing as ATL, and not all carriers are great in all regions. But that doesn't stop people from making the usual WN bash comments.

My point was simple. If making stops makes you a "Greyhound bus" then every carrier is at times a Greyhound bus. It has nothing to do with a Praetorian guard, it has to do with wanting a reasonable conversation that for once doesn't involve denigration as a key element of making a point. Be it about WN, AS, UA, or even the poor, picked on Greyhound.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: IRelayer
Posted 2006-01-04 04:21:30 and read 5040 times.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 101):

F9 will have no problems either. Do some research on the airline before making these comments that cannot be backed up.

What "comments"? I was asking a question. Did you miss the question mark? The confrontational spirit of this board never ceases to amaze.

-IR

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: MD-90
Posted 2006-01-04 05:13:19 and read 4767 times.

Southwest needs to upgrade their cabin to compete with Frontier and United in Denver.

Check out Mike Boyd's commentary on the state of Southwest:

http://aviationplanning.com/Predictions2006.htm

Bullseye On Frontier. Take it to the bank: Southwest is likely planning on taking Frontier out. No, not co-exist as one big happy family. This is the new Southwest, one that can not afford not to be competitively carnivorous.

The game is Frontier’s and United’s to lose, and it's a certainty that one or both of these airlines will come out competitively swinging to beat the band. Again the vulnerable points: WN lack of seat assignment, and both Frontier and United offer in-flight entertainment. The fares will be the same. It's the product that will ultimately make the difference, and that's what Southwest will likely address in the next 12 months.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 06:13:59 and read 4497 times.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 145):
Southwest needs to upgrade their cabin to compete with Frontier and United in Denver.

That's for sure. Just as was stated, assigned seating and IFE of some sort would go a long ways towards keeping WN competitive. As it is, the new breed of LCC's, including Frontier, have a mostly superior onboard product, certainly not inferior. The legacies have a much broader range of products and destinations that meet many poeple's needs, too.

WN can only go so far on the current business model, and the longer they wait to upgrade/implement something new, the more it will cost and the longer it will take.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Midway2AirTran
Posted 2006-01-04 06:41:19 and read 4393 times.

Quoting Justapassenger (Reply 12):
All he said as far as Frontier’s response to WN’s entry into the Denver market was that Frontier was talking to its passengers and responding to their needs and desires. It seemed like a really weak response. Why didn’t he say something much more positive to promote Frontier? Why didn’t he say: 1) We have a superior product, 2) We are prepared to counter WN’s new service, 3) There’s room for both of us on those routes. Why didn’t he give us more hope that they could deal with WN’s new service?

It's the type of response I would like to hear, they need to react to its customers, not the competition. Wall Street may hate this type response initially, but it pays dividends later on. The industry has a long history of focusing way too much on competitive issues and losing track of why airlines exist.

Commenting on Mike Boyd's article....
IMO Boyd tends to get a bit too much into the drama in his predictions though its in quite a humorus format that's fun to read. Southwest has very few destinations considering its size and still has plenty of room for easy growth. The peak of that growth is still far away IMO. Growth into cities such as DEN, PHL and maybe CLT is to capture yeilds that are higher and where RPM's can grow with WN's fare structure; not an US Airways attack.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: 777fan
Posted 2006-01-04 07:38:29 and read 4222 times.

Quoting SAIL52115 (Reply 52):
Right on, bro! I really do like WN for these reasons:
1) I am a 20 min train ride from MDW, door-to-door!
2) Always on time in my experience
3) WN has never pretended they are something they are not. You gotta love a straightforward person/company/attitude: WYSIWYG.
3a) Oh, you paid how much for that flight?
4) More legroom.
5) I have been bumped from a WN flight trying to get home and they were very good about accomodating me on the next available flight (which involved a chg in BWI, instead of nonstop). 1 week later, I received a $50 voucher for a future flight as an apology. Hmmm...spend $50...get a customer for life?

I've been following Anet for the past couple of weeks and finally decided to join after coming to the realization that some may have fallen prey to the misconception that WN is as cracked up as it is portrayed to be. I'm a now a dedicated UA flier (thanks, Southwest!) originally from Chicago that lived in Baltimore for a couple of years. After hearing the hype, I decided to give WN a shot on its BWI-MDW route. For those that are so enamored with WN, you might take a look at the facts and reconsider the legacy carriers on the BWI-MDW (and beyond):
- As I recall, each leg of the three trips I took was delayed for various reasons (yeah, it happens, but a 0% ontime rate doesn't score with me)
- The "leather" (read: vinyl) seats aren't any better than fabric
- Pre-selected seats are the least you should expect; not even WN's most frequent fliers can avoid their cattle car herding
- WN's BWI-MDW fares cost EXACTLY the same as UA or AA (about $170 RT)
- UA's Economy Plus offers 35" pitch; WN runs about 32-33"
- The "haha, that's funny" schtick offered by WN's flight attendants gets really old when you've been sitting on the tarmac in a 90+ min ground stop
- Think your $50 compensation was enough? On my last trip back to HNL (my new home), my wife and I elected to take a 3 hour bump from LAX-HNL and were compensated with $800 in vouchers and a F-class upgrade.

As for the WN "smack-umentary" "Airline", I can't help but point out how many times I've seen WN hang unsuspecting passengers out to dry after they missed connections as a result of WN's problems. I specifically recall one woman being told that the next available flight from BWI to BUF was in TWO DAYS and that she was not entitled to rebooking on another airline (naturally, since WN doesn't do that) or accomodations. I suppose this explains why WN fares are refundable.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-01-04 07:59:04 and read 4159 times.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
misconception that WN is as cracked up as it is portrayed to be

Dude: So fly UA. Love it. Live it. Worship it. That's what choice is all about.

That said, let me make a few observations, designed not to persuade you to shift but to give you an idea why some people are excited about WN. First, those "exactly the same fares" wouldn't be without an LCC keeping them down. That's a fact. But, hey, you don't have to "dance with the one that brung you". If everybody did, then Braniff would still be in business. (If you don't understand what I'm saying, it's a reference to an old Braniff commercial.)

Second, and I KNOW you can't understand this, some people who aren't drunk and wearing a tube top actually do LIKE WN. They do. They really do. Some of these are business people who fly frequently between two points, who appreciate the frequency and the fact that they don't have to PAY EXTRA for the frequency or the ability to get on the earlier flight. Some people really do even like the absence of assigned seats. It actually can be really convenient. Last time I was travelling back from some depositions in Galveston, I ran into some guys I knew from my case at the airport. Turned out that we were all going back to Dallas. One guy was on a later flight, but we were all there together. We got to get on the same flight. We got to sit together. And we didn't have to go through a whole lot of folderal to do it. We just got on the plane and sat together. Simple. The flight was short. But I got my drinks (as most WN customers do) a million times faster than I would get them on any other carrier. No drink cart, orders taken in advance, can have anything I want, not just a bottle of juice or water thrown at me on a short flight. It's not for everyone. But it does the trick when you're bouncing between two cities a lot. And...the people are more consistently nice and upbeat than almost any other carrier. If you find nice people tedious, and want to sit and stew while waiting in a ground stop (which of course applies to anyone else on any other carrier traveling to the same airport), then WN isn't for you. Nor, probably, is Airtran, where the pilot on the my last ground-stopped Airtran flight came on and said, "I have good news and bad news. Which do you want to hear first?" "The bad news" in unison. "Okay, the bad news is that we're going to sit here in the Penalty Box for probably about forty minutes because Air Traffic Control is keeping all traffic to Atlanta on the ground until some thunderstorms pass. But the good news is that I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico." Groans. "I'll get back to you as soon as they give me a believable wheels up time."

Hey, it's not for everyone, but some people like it. Makes the world go around.

Oh yeah. And it's real leather, but who cares?

Enjoy Channel 9. That's something that I myself do like.

All the best,

Bill

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Markabcan
Posted 2006-01-04 08:04:00 and read 4143 times.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
For those that are so enamored with WN, you might take a look at the facts and reconsider the legacy carriers on the BWI-MDW (and beyond):

These are not facts but your experience on several different occasions. This is hardly reason enough to denounce Southwest! You have a choice and it is fine that you choose United, it is obviously your preference but you should find some real facts before claiming that your experience reflects the airline as a whole. Welcome to the forum!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 08:06:05 and read 4135 times.

Welcome to A.net!

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
For those that are so enamored with WN, you might take a look at the facts and reconsider the legacy carriers

Well, you might want to define "Facts", as you listed a mix of facts and opinions, but no big deal.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
- As I recall, each leg of the three trips I took was delayed for various reasons (yeah, it happens, but a 0% ontime rate doesn't score with me)

That would suck.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
- The "leather" (read: vinyl) seats aren't any better than fabric

My wife loved them. I was neutral on them.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
- Pre-selected seats are the least you should expect; not even WN's most frequent fliers can avoid their cattle car herding

It would be nice, but it's been discussed to death here how they (WN) benefit from doing it that way. It may change someday, though, and that would be a good change for most.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
- WN's BWI-MDW fares cost EXACTLY the same as UA or AA (about $170 RT)

that is more a function of WN being in the market than UA/AA being saints, I'm guessing. WN prices primarily for it's own profitability - UA/AA are likely price matching in the city-pair.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
- UA's Economy Plus offers 35" pitch; WN runs about 32-33"

How does it work with E+? I don't fly UA (or at least haven't in many years, for no particular reason) but I assumed E+ was for their better frequent fliers. That doesn't benefit the masses, but maybe I'm mistaken on how they allocate those seats.

Either way, 35" is a great pitch.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
- The "haha, that's funny" schtick offered by WN's flight attendants gets really old when you've been sitting on the tarmac in a 90+ min ground stop

On my four recent WN flights, I never heard a single joke. Maybe it was a bad day (or good day, depending on your perspective). I have heard jokes on other airlines, though, and appreciated them for what they were.

Quoting 777fan (Reply 148):
- Think your $50 compensation was enough? On my last trip back to HNL (my new home), my wife and I elected to take a 3 hour bump from LAX-HNL and were compensated with $800 in vouchers and a F-class upgrade.

$50 seemed kinda low, considering they were bumped to the following day. And it wasn't offered at the gate, but came in the mail as a surprise a week later. He definitely needed to make more of a scene at the counter  Smile.

All in all, it sounds like WN wasn't for you, and that UA meets your needs. Cool. I think, though, that you'll find a fair number of people who have flown both and agree with you, and a fair number who have flown both and disagree with you. I don't think it's fair to label your comments as entirely "facts", though.

-Dave

(P.S. - Is Tornado82 here? I am trying to avoid the whole "Praetorian Guard" comment again.)

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Ppostro
Posted 2006-01-04 08:47:23 and read 4037 times.

The ad's are creative, they are created by UA's agency of record, Leo Burnett Chicago. It'll be interesting to see the TV, Radio aspect of this mass advertising campaign in Denver. I wonder what Southwest is thinking right about now, although I agree, UA is giving Southwest a great PR boost indirectly, I am sure Southwest isn't too peeved at UA.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Moparman
Posted 2006-01-04 09:09:34 and read 4007 times.

Irelayer:

--- Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
For the life of me: Southwest is laughable. Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance? Although United isn't my favorite carrier - I would rather take Greyhound than fly with Southwest.

This is a flamebait. I have suggested deletion. ---

Is it? Or is it perhaps an opinion of Southwest Airlines? It could only be considered to be flamebait if you cannot stand someone who as a negative opinion about Southwest Airlines.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-04 14:22:41 and read 3917 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 151):
(P.S. - Is Tornado82 here? I am trying to avoid the whole "Praetorian Guard" comment again.)

You won't get it, you're one of the handful of Southwest fans here who can admit they have faults. That's almost RU-List worthy by the standards of other WN fans here. But if you want to try a little more flamebait to me, I'm sure I can find something else.  Wink

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Spartanmjf
Posted 2006-01-04 14:37:55 and read 3906 times.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 122):
Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 119):
t's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Yeah better peanuts

The last time I checked, WN is still providing snack service, unlike a couple of our legacy friends who have abandoned pretzels.....

For a business traveler [and I am one], IFE is not as important as ontime arrivals, ontime departures, and reasonable fares. I usually end up with an 'A' boarding card on WN because of online checkin, so the issue of reserved seating doesn't really bother me. JetBlue and Frontier have nice products, but wait until their new Airbus fleets begin requiring expensive D checks, and see what happens to their finances.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-04 17:42:33 and read 3802 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 153):
you're one of the handful of Southwest fans here who can admit they have faults.

I have faults?  Smile

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 153):
But if you want to try a little more flamebait to me, I'm sure I can find something else.

LOL.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-04 17:50:22 and read 3783 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 155):
I have faults?

No no, you admit Southwest's faults. And evidentally you like trains too, I was a train nut before planes even thanks to my grandpa when i was about 6.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: BigOrange
Posted 2006-01-04 18:03:21 and read 3761 times.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 4):
Which other airline has a television show highlighting their total incompetance?



Easyjet

Quoting Moparman (Reply 9):
I vote with my wallet, and I will not support Southwest Airlines. Any airline that oversells on occasion; Southwest seems to do it every flight

Every airline oversells every flight. The difference with Southwest is their fares are lower, and seats can't be held without payment, unlike the major carriers so there is more chance of everyone turning up!

I support the airline who offers me:

1) The best fare
2) The best policy for changing flight times/date
3) The best times suited to my needs

Southwest get my vote, after a trip last year where I needed to change the dates of my return trip. Southwest cost me a total of $48 to change 2 tickets. USeless Airways would have charged me a minimum of $100 per ticket.

You obviously either have too much money, or never need to change a flight.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Cjpark
Posted 2006-01-04 18:17:00 and read 3738 times.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 112):
...And WN has never claimed to be anything more than affordable, basic transportation. So is there a specific problem you're referring to, or are you just complaining about WN because you have nothing better to do?

Funny but my last post was deleted without any messages from the moderators. What is going on?

No 2h4 I am not complaining only telling you exactly how it is.

I made over 40+ flights last year on US legacy, Asian and Europeon carriers not counting the numerous flights between DAL and HOU. There is a world of difference between the service levels on some of those airlines compared to WN.

Flying on WN I feel like I am part of a herd and funny thing about it is that a lot of people I talk to feel the same way. However it is cheaper to fly WN so we do. That is the only reason why some people fly that airline. (MOO!)
Boarding Group B (Rattle Rattle here comes the cattle!).

Why don't you get out and experience what service and pride in product means? Get on a full service carrier pay the price for premium service then compare your experiences to WN. I think even you can see the difference.

That is why we refer to WN as the company bus. Ergo it is only a bus with wings.

I have to hand it to WN though. They have been able to depreciate the service level of a whole industry and lower the expectations of the flying public all the while making the public think that it is a good thing to have happened.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: BURules
Posted 2006-01-04 18:36:30 and read 3717 times.

Quoting Ppostro (Reply 151):
The ad's are creative, they are created by UA's agency of record, Leo Burnett Chicago. It'll be interesting to see the TV, Radio aspect of this mass advertising campaign in Denver. I wonder what Southwest is thinking right about now, although I agree, UA is giving Southwest a great PR boost indirectly, I am sure Southwest isn't too peeved at UA

Leo Burnett has not been United's agency for years. They were created by Fallon in Minneapolis.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Alphascan
Posted 2006-01-04 19:02:17 and read 3690 times.

Quoting Ppostro (Reply 151):
they are created by UA's agency of record, Leo Burnett Chicago.

FYI- United hasn't worked with Burnett for years. The ads were created by Fallon-Minneapolis.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Moparman
Posted 2006-01-04 19:27:30 and read 3665 times.

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 157):
You obviously either have too much money, or never need to change a flight.

My traveling is I guess roughly 70% pleasure / 30% business. I tend to plan ahead, especially with my vacation travel. On-time performance, and less stress is more important to me than lowest price. Don't misunderstand: good price is important, but only to a degree. I have paid $60-$70 more NOT to fly WN on several occasions. This extra is well worth it me not to feel like a part of a herd; not to be rounded up and crudely treated. When I travel for business: It is of critical importance for me to arrive promtly. WN is NOT the answer.

Over the past 10 years or so I have traveled with WN perhaps a dozen times total and I can say the following (personal opinion based on experiance):

1. The flights ranged in satisfaction from a high of average to intolorable.
2. WN product does not compare to legacy carriers, nor does their service
3. Gate personel are in general rude, stuffy, and not customer friendly
4. On time experiance with my flights (up to 20 minutes late): (0) ZERO %

My favorite carrier is CO. I may pay a little more, but I feel that I get a whole lot more then WN could ever provide. The same is with DL or NW whom I fly with if I cannot book with CO. If neither of them is reasonable, AA or UL generally are, but I'm not a frequent flier with them.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-01-04 20:27:15 and read 3619 times.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 161):
stuffy,

Unreal.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-01-04 20:44:21 and read 3601 times.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 158):
They have been able to depreciate the service level of a whole industry

Oh, yeah. Like this wouldn't have happened anyway. Crandall took the olives out of the salads a long time before Southwest posed any kind of threat.

The fact is that air transportation was a price-regulated, cost-plus industry for decades. It was unaffordable to many people. When a commodity is price-regulated on a cost-plus basis, everybody pays the same price, so there is little incentive to be efficient. Competition exists solely on the basis of service, not price. That's why you were getting lounges in planes, fancy seats, fancy meals, etc. Once the ability to compete on the basis of price occurs, then the unnecessary perks will begin to fall off. However, some carriers may choose to offer the "old" service at the "old" price, if enough people still want it. Look at Midwest, and ask yourself how much people want the old service at the old price, or even a dramatically-reduced price. Executives at the majors have analysed this thing to death, and they have concluded, much to the dismay of the snobs here, that what folks want is low prices and that they largely (not totally, but largely) have to offer service at the same price as everyone else, because what they're ultimately providing is a commodity, not something unique. They see huge shifts of business when they're ten dollars above everyone else, so they don't charge the extra ten dollars. (Of course, biz class is another deal.) Those who have offered something unique haven't been successful at it. What is out there now is what most people want, or the fancier service would be viable. What happened to More Room Throughout Coach? Were enough people willing to pay more for it? Even with the vaunted AAdvantage program backing it up? No. They weren't, or it would still be there.

People have also accepted an insane level of price-discrimination in this business. Even WN has last-minute fares that aren't entirely "fair" in the broadest sense of the word; there is still a desire to stick it (admittedly just a little) to the business person or person who has to travel at the last minute. Remember PeoplExpress? They had "peak" and "off-peak" and that was it. Not enough people responded to that truly-fair fare structure.

So if you want to blame someone for the absence of the kind of service that you think should be offered, blame your coworkers, neighbors, friends, and fellow citizens. If they demanded the olive, it would be in most airlines' salads, and Southwest would (like PeopleExpress) be a different service catering to a different audience. With or without Southwest, American carriers would have run themselves down to the place that they are today.

Here's an idea: Maybe the government should add yet another nuisance tax to the price of airline tickets (what is it now, like 25%?). They can then take that money and give it to carriers to pay for services that Congress says they should all have, like an extra 1" of pitch, or newer planes than DC9s, or bars and lounges in aircraft, or prettier/nicer f/as, or separate transportation for the obese and smelly, or separate transportation for seat-kicking children, or cold poached salmon for your meal.

By the way, if you still refuse to blame your neighbors, there's someone else you can blame for destroying the airline business: Crandall. Why? Because his ego wouldn't let him cede the bottom-of-the-barrel traveler to PeoplExpress. He could have kept his operation as it was, and let the bus travelers and car travelers go PeoplExpress. But no. He SOUGHT OUT those low-margin travelers with massively-discriminatory fares with high restrictions, hoping to put PeoplExpress out of business. It was a sea change in approach to pricing, and it should have failed. But it didn't -- people thought they could get high service with low prices, hell, he promised it to them. And he got away with it, on the backs of the business traveler. And it only took 15 years for businesses to realize how much they were being screwed and how unnecessary it was. He punched the first holes in the dike. And here we are.

[Edited 2006-01-04 20:49:07]

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: SBN580
Posted 2006-01-04 20:56:57 and read 3578 times.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 158):
Boarding Group B (Rattle Rattle here comes the cattle!).

 laughing  Exactly!

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 158):
I have to hand it to WN though. They have been able to depreciate the service level of a whole industry and lower the expectations of the flying public all the while making the public think that it is a good thing to have happened.

Very succinct and to the point.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: HAMAD
Posted 2006-01-04 21:08:37 and read 3565 times.

regarding those ticket change fees. i once talked to a friend of mine when she worked as a reservation agent with NW, she said that it doesnt cost $100 to change a ticket, they just put that charge because changing the ticket that is already been issued causes some damage .. now what was the damage? i don't know, go figure! lol a $50 fee would be acceptable but a $100, thats almost half another ticket

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Moparman
Posted 2006-01-04 21:38:26 and read 3528 times.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 163):
It was a sea change in approach to pricing, and it should have failed. But it didn't -- people thought they could get high service with low prices, hell, he promised it to them. And he got away with it, on the backs of the business traveler. And it only took 15 years for businesses to realize how much they were being screwed and how unnecessary i

I agree with you on this. When I travel for business (or pleasure), I have to pay everything myself without any reembursement. That is the nature of the business I am in. If as a business owner sending my employees on trips, I wouldn't authorize business class travel either as I believe it is completely unnecessary. If the employee chooses to pay to upgrade his or her ticket, that is the individual's own business. However what would be of importance to me and my business is that my employees arrive in a promt and punctual manner. I firmly believe that punctual performance is the hallmark of good business. In that respect, WN would definately not be the answer for me. It may very well be the answer for many folks who are little bothered by the antics, sloppy performance, and horrid service that WN provides.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: OPNLguy
Posted 2006-01-04 22:27:35 and read 3507 times.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 163):
Remember PeoplExpress? They had "peak" and "off-peak" and that was it. Not enough people responded to that truly-fair fare structure.

SWA once had the peak/off-peak structure too...

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-01-04 23:29:24 and read 3460 times.

Thanks for the interesting responses. In rereading my post, I think that it would have been better for me to have said "highly-price-sensitive traveller" than "bottom of the barrel traveller". The point was that most intercity travel is still done by car and that when you get into a certain part of the demand curve, you have a meaty opportunity to get people out of their dangerous cars and into much-safer planes. But you have to offer a certain price to accomplish that, and it's a significantly lower price than some are willing to pay for the same coach seat.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: DLKAPA
Posted 2006-01-04 23:39:27 and read 3445 times.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 3):
.who was on the inaugural of WN to DEN?

I was on flt 743 to Vegas. Brand new 737-700, N228WN (the one that came in for the press release), the way the flight crew we talked to the day before sounded, it was actually the aircraft's first revenue flight.

Very clean, very comfortable, very professional service. And the no-assigned-seating wasn't a big problem for me at all (Printed my passes at home, A group both flights).

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: HoosierCFI
Posted 2006-01-05 02:12:30 and read 3358 times.

As for WN's advertising campaign in DEN, I think that they should focus on the competition without naming them.
Example: WN's change fee = $0
Snack Box = $0, etc.

They could also list the airfares on their routes the month before they came into service versus today.

Love them or hate them, they seem to help bring the price down for consumers.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-05 02:28:55 and read 3337 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 156):
No no, you admit Southwest's faults. And evidentally you like trains too, I was a train nut before planes even thanks to my grandpa when i was about 6.

Sorry, my sarcasm again. I got it.

Ya, my first and primary passion is trains - to an unhealthy degree. Unfortunately, the railroad forums aren't as exciting as this one, and they tend to have a higher percentage of "disgruntled" and "politically motivated" people than even here.

And besides, how often does an order for GE or GM make the news when a railroad places it? Exactly. But you do get the GM vs GE war, akin to A vs B, only much less emotional (it's just not the same thing). Spotters think they get wierd looks? Try being a foamer  Smile. Your lucky if you don't get hit by a car or arrested by...oh wait, that one get's spotters also.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-05 02:40:37 and read 3321 times.

PlanesNTrains, check your priv. messages... I would have posted here but I didn't want to turn this into a train thread.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Halls120
Posted 2006-01-05 03:42:30 and read 3269 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 150):
ing 777fan (Reply 148):
- WN's BWI-MDW fares cost EXACTLY the same as UA or AA (about $170 RT)

that is more a function of WN being in the market than UA/AA being saints, I'm guessing. WN prices primarily for it's own profitability - UA/AA are likely price matching in the city-pair.

Maybe they are, but so what? Much of my leisure flying is from IAD to OAK or SMF to visit the folks. I always check out WN, but find that for essentially the same price, I can fly UA and get 1) a nonstop flight, 2) upgrades to first or at the very least a economy plus seat, 3) an assigned seat that I choose, 4) channel 9 ATC, and 5) being able to build up miles for international recreation travel.

Since I can't get any of those on WN, where's the advantage of flying WN?

While I recognize that WN, FL, and B6 have created the competitive environment that has pushed the legacy carriers to lower their fare - for which I'm grateful - for the same reasons I don't take Greyhound, I don't fly WN.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Wjcandee
Posted 2006-01-05 03:51:30 and read 3258 times.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 171):
the railroad forums aren't as exciting as this one

True, actually. BUT, you don't get plane cams that are equivalent to say, Sand Patch on trainorders.com That, actually, would be pretty cool.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-05 03:57:14 and read 3249 times.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 173):
While I recognize that WN, FL, and B6 have created the competitive environment that has pushed the legacy carriers to lower their fare - for which I'm grateful - for the same reasons I don't take Greyhound, I don't fly WN.

That's fine. I was responding to a "slam" so to speak against WN because UA and AA offer the same fares. I'm not saying that you should fly them, but to somehow lift up AA and UA against them based on fares is somewhat disingenuous to me.

Please, don't fly them if you don't want to. It doesn't matter one bit to me either way.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-05 04:39:05 and read 3205 times.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 174):
True, actually. BUT, you don't get plane cams that are equivalent to say, Sand Patch on trainorders.com That, actually, would be pretty cool.

There are some good webcams for trains, and LiveRadio for the dispatcher/train communications as well. Kinda the channel 9 of railroading I guess!

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-05 05:55:28 and read 3159 times.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 174):

True, actually. BUT, you don't get plane cams that are equivalent to say, Sand Patch on trainorders.com That, actually, would be pretty cool.

Sand Patch?!? Now you're talking my tune. Like I told PNT on that private message... when I still lived on the good side of PA I used to go up on the Yough River Trail all the time, which rides on the former WM Connellsville Extension right of way... paralleling the Sand Patch Line which is across the river. Lived about 15 minutes from the line, used to go spotting all the time.

I didn't know you WN guys were all Railfans at the core... maybe you're not that bad after all.  Wink

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Burnsie28
Posted 2006-01-05 06:43:03 and read 3129 times.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 3):
Although a competitor, F9 outta DEN is laughable...who was on the inaugural of WN to DEN?

I was on the very first flight yesterday to LAS. All the "festivities" took place after the first flights left. The flight attendents mumbled over the PA, and came around four times or so, to take drink orders, give drinks, and pick up trash twice. We had the oldest FA working for WN, she was hired when WN started. The only extra thing we got on the flight was "Your very special customers, first ones out of Denver, Wahoo". The only good part about it was the fact that the aircraft that flew to LAS was its first revenue flight. It was no different then most US airlines, no jokes, no smile, rather surprising and not up to what everyone Southwest is.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Cloudy
Posted 2006-01-08 17:40:45 and read 2933 times.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 178):
The only extra thing we got on the flight was "Your very special customers, first ones out of Denver, Wahoo". The only good part about it was the fact that the aircraft that flew to LAS was its first revenue flight. It was no different then most US airlines, no jokes, no smile, rather surprising and not up to what everyone Southwest is.

Southwest does vary its antics a bit depending on route and passenger mix.

As a percentage of the time spent in the plane, there really is not that much wisecracking, etc. Maybe a total of less then 5 minutes even on a long haul flight, and usually not very loud. Its not like your being forced to watch 80's commedy all the way from BWI to LAX.

It can actually help an airline to scare some passengers away. Those who can't stand a LITTLE BIT of humor would come to mind. I don't mean those who just sit through it and don't care one way or the other, or even wince. I'm talking about people who hate it so much they compare it to watching a rhino give birth and choose airlines on that basis. Those kind of people tend to be negative by nature. They are more likely to be a pain to sit with, abuse staff, and generally drag other people down to their own level of negativity and misery. Every airline is going to get some of these people - as the show AIRLINE attests. However, screening out those who HATE Southwest's humor so much that they will choose another airline to avoid even a little of it will cut the number of sourpusses.

It also helps to screen out those who pay the same as everyone else but expect "First Class" treatment of some sort. On Southwest, frequent fliers are compensated by free travel and companion passes. They are not given expensive, and discriminatory "Elite" benefits, and an ego feeding "elite" title. They are treated the same as everyone else - which on Southwest is very well indeed. People who like this, IMHO, would seem to be a better sort of people than those who do not. They would be more fun to fly with as a passenger, and to deal with as an employee. This is good for the other passengers in and of itself, and it also improves the passenger experience by improving employee moral.

IN SHORT..... People who work in other airlines often remark that Southwest seems to have a greater share of the "nice" passengers. This is NOT an accident. It is by design, and it is one of the biggest things about Southwest that the legacies just do not get. Its not the low-costs, folks. Its the culture. Good culture creates low costs and passenger appeal. Many airlines have failed when they tried to immitate Southwest's business model without fixing their culture.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Cjpark
Posted 2006-01-08 20:16:15 and read 2882 times.

That is an interesting post Cloudy, full of fluff but yet still interesting.


One question for you. You compare other airlines frequent flyer programs with WN's and go on to say that the elite benefits are discriminatory? How so you have to earn your priviledges anywhere? How is rewarding loyal customers with perks discriminatory?

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-08 20:50:14 and read 2854 times.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 179):
They are not given expensive, and discriminatory "Elite" benefits, and an ego feeding "elite" title. They are treated the same as everyone else - which on Southwest is very well indeed

False. When you're elite, and tired of travelling all day, making your connection... you can sit on your ass in the chair until they call "Elite, blah blah" members, not standing on your sore tired feet for a half hour in line.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tango-Bravo
Posted 2006-01-09 21:28:03 and read 2723 times.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 28):
Southwest's beverage service: Once the preflight safety announcements have been completed, the FAs will go thru the cabin and collect drink orders from passengers until they are told to be seated for takeoff.



Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 28):
Southwest is notorious for a full beverage service, weather permitting, even on the shortest of flights. Austin to Houston, 155 miles, usually blocks at 28-32 minutes of enroute time and they will do a full beverage service for 137 on that flight.

Which I have experienced on the route I fly most often with WN, PHX-LAX-PHX, about 75-80 minutes each way overall, about 45 minutes in cruise mode. On one flight (a 733 with about 120 pax onboard) I consumed three rounds of complimentary beverages and was offered a fourth, which I politely declined.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: PlanesNTrains
Posted 2006-01-09 22:06:19 and read 2692 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 181):
False. When you're elite, and tired of travelling all day, making your connection... you can sit on your ass in the chair until they call "Elite, blah blah" members, not standing on your sore tired feet for a half hour in line.

Definitely makes me wish I was Elite! Of course, if you're not elite, then it may not mean as much to you who you fly. Myself, I'd at least prefer selecting my own seat. Aside from that, is there really much difference out there for the leisure flier?

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 180):
How so you have to earn your priviledges anywhere? How is rewarding loyal customers with perks discriminatory?

True.

Every company decides how it wants to reward it's frequent, or best customers. Hell, I've had a half-dozen espresso punch cards in my wallet at one time, my credit card earns miles (or points, depending on the card), etc. How an airline chooses to reward it's customers is really up to them - if it's not working, I'm sure they'll change.

As to WN, I do know people in CA that frequently fly ONT-OAK to visit family, and they are always telling me about flying for free, drinking onboard for free, etc. For them, WN is the carrier offering the best benefits. For others, it will be somebody else.

In the end, whatever works for you is the right choice.

-Dave

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: N471WN
Posted 2006-01-12 21:39:50 and read 2550 times.

Made 4 SWA flights in and out of Denver this past week---all flights were over 90% full so UAL and Frontier can only watch as over 1500 butts per day are now not on their planes....Concourse C is coming alive!!!

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-12 22:03:34 and read 2519 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 181):
When you're elite, and tired of travelling all day, making your connection...

It's funny -- this is a market segment in which Southwest has little to no interest. To quote Southwest's 2004 annual report:

Quote:
Southwest focuses on nonstop, not connecting, traffic. As a result, approximately 78 percent of the Company�s Customers fly nonstop.

People do connect on Southwest; it's just that the airline's focus is on efficient point-to-point service, not getting everyone from anywhere to everywhere and being all things to all people. The elites who expect first class and a seat assignment and connect through a hub several times a week or month are not WN's core market.

Quoting Dbba (Reply 184):
Made 4 SWA flights in and out of Denver this past week---all flights were over 90% full so UAL and Frontier can only watch as over 1500 butts per day are now not on their planes....Concourse C is coming alive!!!

Not that this is indicative of future performance, but consistent 90+% loads during mid-January, which is typically an extremely weak travel period, strike me as being impressive. As a reference, Frontier's January 2005 average load factor was 67.6%.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-12 22:09:57 and read 2500 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 185):
but consistent 90+% loads during mid-January, which is typically an extremely weak travel period, strike me as being impressive. As a reference, Frontier's January 2005 average load factor was 67.6%.

Amazingly impressive.

Just to put it in perspective, SWA's January 2005 load factor was 58.8%.

http://www.southwest.com/about_swa/press/prindex.html

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2006-01-12 22:10:55]

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-12 22:16:57 and read 2491 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 185):
The elites who expect first class and a seat assignment and connect through a hub several times a week or month are not WN's core market.

That wasn't the point of what I said. My quote was in response to an earlier quote that Elite benefits are discriminatory, an ego stroke, and pointless. The Elite benefits have nothing to do with the 1st class upgrade in my mind. An assigned seat on connecting is also a benefit, because of RJ's... connecting me to the airports I WANT to go to, not the airport I'm forced to SETTLE for on a limited-network carrier like Southwest. When I'm making that connection I want a seat waiting for me, so that if I want to bring up the rear of the line to sit for an extra minute and help my bad knee after a long walk through the airport, more power to me, and I still have a seat. Saying that Elite benefits are just an ego-stroking title, is hogwash. With that elite status you get benefits too countless to list here... and nowhere in that is an ego stroke... and to say it's discrimination is just laughable.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-12 22:44:52 and read 2460 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 186):
Just to put it in perspective, SWA's January 2005 load factor was 58.8%.

Yes, even more impressive given that perspective, since WN rarely breaks 60% for load factor in January; the highest I could find going back to 1997 was 62.5% in January 2001. I would be surprised if UA and F9 were not seeing similar or better traffic numbers to PHX, LAS, and MDW/ORD.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 181):
you can sit on your ass in the chair until they call "Elite, blah blah" members, not standing on your sore tired feet for a half hour in line.



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 187):
That wasn't the point of what I said.

And my point is not that Southwest eschews the passengers looking to have their ego stroked; they would rather let their competitors have the passengers who expect/require Elite benefits (or seat assignments) and who connect in order to get them.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 187):
An assigned seat on connecting is also a benefit, because of RJ's... connecting me to the airports I WANT to go to, not the airport I'm forced to SETTLE for on a limited-network carrier like Southwest.

And for those reasons you are a high-cost passenger -- because you go from small markets to small markets with connections on high-cost RJ's. You want seat assignments which add some incremental cost. Beyond "elite" benefits, some of your basic requirements are incompatible with their business model.

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-12 22:55:52 and read 2445 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 188):
Yes, even more impressive given that perspective

A more indicative LF for DEN will be around June... right now there's a novelty factor. Introductory fares + newness = Novelty. Look at the sales of XBox 360 when it came out. Nobody is lining up at the toy stores at midnight to buy it now either... it's a novelty effect.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 188):
And for those reasons you are a high-cost passenger --

I weigh around 200lb too, I believe that's over "average," so I add costs there too.  Silly

Quoting ScottB (Reply 188):
Beyond "elite" benefits, some of your basic requirements are incompatible with their business model.

It's not like I'm a freak. There are more airports in the country NOT served by Southwest than there ARE served by them. I guess that's why Southwest doesn't fit my business model either... the one of convenience. Of the people I know personally (not through the internet on A.net) who fly frequently... more are like me than like the prototypical Southwest clones that are "compatible with their business model."

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Mariner
Posted 2006-01-12 23:20:01 and read 2427 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 188):
I would be surprised if UA and F9 were not seeing similar or better traffic numbers to PHX, LAS, and MDW/ORD

Obviously, one would hope that is true.

However - forgive me if I am wrong - isn't the 90% load factor figure for SWA at DEN in January '06 completely anecdotal?

cheers

mariner

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-13 00:02:39 and read 2400 times.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 190):
However - forgive me if I am wrong - isn't the 90% load factor figure for SWA at DEN in January '06 completely anecdotal?

Completely and entirely! Of course, every flight was completely booked on the first day of service (see http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3366284), and only one DEN-LAS flight and one DEN-PHX flight tomorrow have any seats at all available at this point (all four DEN-MDW flights do have some seats available). I'd guess that F9 is in a similar position given the fares they're quoting for tomorrow. But we're talking about a holiday weekend, too.

I do believe that the announcement of additional service on the day they started flying from DEN, not to mention requesting a third gate, is probably indicative of Southwest being pleased with bookings at DEN so far. We might hear something when earnings are released next week.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 189):
A more indicative LF for DEN will be around June... right now there's a novelty factor. Introductory fares + newness = Novelty.

Summer loads are strong for everyone. I do agree completely that it will take time to get any sort of meaningful indication of how DEN is doing for WN, but the anecdotal reports are good so far (though one is far more likely to be on a full flight than an empty one...).

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 189):
It's not like I'm a freak. There are more airports in the country NOT served by Southwest than there ARE served by them. I guess that's why Southwest doesn't fit my business model either... the one of convenience.

That is exactly right -- Southwest doesn't fit your business model -- they do not provide the services you require. Heck, their total share of the domestic market is only in the neighborhood of 15%. Because you are near ABE and able to plan your travel far in advance, they offer little benefit to you. If you were in, say, California and making frequent trips from L.A. to the Bay Area, their service would probably be more compatible with you. (Maybe not.) They will never be everything to everyone -- and that is why there will remain a significant market for somewhere fewer than six network carriers (my guess is about three).

[Edited 2006-01-13 00:04:37]

Topic: RE: United Fires Initial PR Burst In DEN Dogfight!
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-13 01:48:40 and read 2360 times.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 191):
Summer loads are strong for everyone. I do agree completely that it will take time to get any sort of meaningful indication of how DEN is doing for WN, but the anecdotal reports are good so far (though one is far more likely to be on a full flight than an empty one...).

I know summer loads are strong for everyone, but I doubt WN has a 90+% LF systemwide in June. The point was June is long enough from now that the novelty factor has worn off, as will the introductory fares.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 191):
Because you are near ABE and able to plan your travel far in advance, they offer little benefit to you

I'm glad to see you understand without flaming the hell out of me... I've driven to Philly before, and Newark too (yeah I know they're not there) when the schedules/fares/routings were too good to pass up. But none of those times has Southwest ever provided the triple-play to make it worth while to leave my FF programs, etc. For instance, going to Vegas, a huge stronghold for WN, so I looked at WN @ PHL. But their schedules are far less flexible than say CO at Newark. Sure I'd save a few bucks on WN, but with Newark I've got almost 20% of Elite-category qualifying miles in one trip... and have a choice of 6 different direct flights a day, some on 752's (and you just can't beat 752's for their takeoffs alone.)

I'd say over the 9 months I've lived here I've traveled to PHL/EWR for maybe 40% of my flights, but in those 40% WN never sweetens the deal enough to deal with a non-assigned seat, to have to connect versus a direct flight, or to not collect miles on my favorite airline in the case of EWR trips. Not to mention since WN needs connections for many flights from PHL (IND is my most common destination, where WN has 3hr layovers in MDW) and even connections heading to LAS on many of the itineraries... you take a big risk taking connections out of a place like PHL. It's just not an on-time airport, no matter how you look at it. I won't fly legacies with connections from EWR/PHL, and I surely won't do it on non-interlined LCC's either. If I'm going to need to connect anyways, my flight is at least beginning stress-free in ABE.

...but of course, I'm just bitter Southwest didn't choose to come to Allentown a year before I ever had an intention of moving here myself, and hate on them every chance I get.  Wink


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