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Topic: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2006-01-19 18:19:48 and read 3131 times.

I spent a few hours longer than I expected to at PHL yesterday because of the weather (heavy rains, winds). I was in terminal F, waiting for a US Express/Air Wisc flight to DTW. I hadn't been in the building in a few years, but noticed how poorly the building is being maintained. I saw close to a dozen cans set out to catch leaks in the roof, and noticed that the terrazzo floor hasn't been maintained. It was dull and dirty. I compared the floor with the floor in the new NWA terminal at DTW, which seems to always be getting polished.

Terminal F is 5 years old or so, right? Why the neglect already? I also saw signs posted talking about the redevelopment of PHL, and it looked like all plans called for all existing terminals to be replaced. Would this be a reason why terminla F isn't being kept up? Thanks.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: AC773
Posted 2006-01-19 19:16:14 and read 3093 times.

Why do you say that? I didn't notice it that much, and I flew DTW-PHL last monday. If you want to talk about a run down terminal, let's discuss the smith terminal at DTW

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: TropicBird
Posted 2006-01-19 19:25:06 and read 3074 times.

Many things having to do with the "old" US Airways are rundown and/or outdated because of the lack of funds prior to the merger. They are beginning to correct that but it takes time. Also airport management and their funding may be part of the problem.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2006-01-19 19:34:30 and read 3056 times.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 1):
Why do you say that? I didn't notice it that much, and I flew DTW-PHL last monday. If you want to talk about a run down terminal, let's discuss the smith terminal at DTW

Were you there in the rain? I couldn't believe how many leaks were in the roof in PHL.

Comparing PHL F to the Smith is irrelevant. The F terminal is a new building, Smith is ancient and due to be replaced. I just was curious why such a new building wouldn't be cared for better. TropicBird makes a good point. Hopefully it'll be much better next time I go to PHL.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: PHLJJS
Posted 2006-01-19 19:39:12 and read 3045 times.

I haven't been in terminal f in a few months, but I can tell you that a good bit of the airport is in that condition with the exception of a-west. There are trash cans and buckets all over terminal's b and c to catch rain from the leaky roof. Hell, part of the ceiling at the security checkpoint in terminal b came crashing down one day about 8 months ago and it hasn't been fixed yet. The problem is lazy cleaners who work for the city and just want to sleep and lounge around all day and night instead of doing there jobs. I see this daily, especially on the overnight shift when most of the cleaning is supposed to get done. As far as the ceilings leaking and things like that, they probably have to take bids to do that kind of work. I always see contractors with temporary SIDA badges working at night to fix walls, paint and do simple stuff like change light bulbs. Its utterly ridiculous how that airport is run. I hope the state of PA finally goes ahead takes it over like they've been planning to do since the city corruption scandal started a couple years ago.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-01-19 19:49:26 and read 3021 times.

Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 4):
haven't been in terminal f in a few months, but I can tell you that a good bit of the airport is in that condition with the exception of a-west. There are trash cans and buckets all over terminal's b and c to catch rain from the leaky roof.

I agree The problem is shoddy construction. Not that Terminal F is going to fall down, but roof leaks are all over the airport.

The city's resonce to the problems reminds me of the story of the call Frank LLoyd Wright recieved from a client. The client complained that his new house's roof leaked onto his desk. Wright's response was to tell him to move his desk.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: AADC10
Posted 2006-01-19 20:03:12 and read 2982 times.

Leaky roofs are not necessarily a result of poor maintenance. Fanciful architecture can also lead to leaky roofs. The previously mentioned Frank Lloyd Wright was notorious for buildings with leaky roofs, like the Johnson Wax building. New buildings like Frank Gehry's Disney Hall have roof leaks too. The infamous Tom Bradly International Terminal at LAX had many leaks too. Fortunately it does not rain much here.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: BishopOfPHL
Posted 2006-01-19 20:25:56 and read 2965 times.

Quoting TOLtommy (Thread starter):
I saw close to a dozen cans set out to catch leaks in the roof,

....shoddy contstruction on a project that was likely no-bid and probably somehow related to the mayor's brother....welcome to Philadelphia.

As much as I love this city, the unions and politicians really have it by the balls.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Zippyjet
Posted 2006-01-19 20:33:35 and read 2932 times.

Wow, even in that 70's concourse D here at BWI, things are not that grungy!
True, our pier is usually overheated! The heat blasts out of those radiators even in August! And, the Nixon era air conditioning usually goes on the blink. But, I attribute that more to this being owned and operated by the state. All the attention goes to WN's showcase shining new pier A and the up and coming to be rennovated concourse B. The rest of us wait in line. Housekeeping generally is pretty good considering having to keep up with a busy gate area.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2006-01-19 21:11:16 and read 2895 times.

Zippy--most of BWI Concourse D was built after the 70's. The original "stub" that now houses Northwest was built then. But the section that now houses UA and CO was built for Piedmont around 1985. The section with gates 23-47, where US and FL are now, was built for the merging Piedmont/ USAir around 1990.

I use Concourse D regularly and it seems to be clean and well-maintained. It's a bit bland, the restrooms are a bit cramped, and the outside could use a fresh coat of paint. But the two newer sections of D have spacious walkways and gate areas, and have big windows. I've never noticed the temperature being too hot or too cold.

You're right though that the "Nixon era" original section of D is insufficient. It's too narrow to handle all the pax that walk through it to the newer sections. The BWI and MAA websites unfortunately don't have active links to the expansion plans right now, I don't know what's up with that.

Brochures I have from 2003-2004 say that this narrow old section of D is supposed to be torn down and replaced this year. I don't know if that's still the plan. I'd imagine they would wait until C is finished so they could move Northwest over there first.

On topic--A terminal as new as PHL F should not leak....and if the city didn't write the contract to require the contractor to repair shoddy workmanship at their own cost, the pax, airlines, and concessionaires at PHL will probably wind up paying for it.

Jim

[Edited 2006-01-19 21:15:44]

[Edited 2006-01-19 21:25:48]

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Zippyjet
Posted 2006-01-19 21:33:28 and read 2857 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 9):
Zippy--most of BWI Concourse D was built after the 70's. The original "stub" that now houses Northwest was built then. But the section that now houses UA and CO was built for Piedmont around 1985. The section with gates 23-47, where US and FL are now, was built for the merging Piedmont/ USAir around 1990

But it looks like it was designed and built in the 70's. Dingy, narrow etc. I work for FL and the gate areas from D-21 to the escalators leading to the commuter gates usually have air conditioner compressors that burn out each and every summer. As a matter of fact, at the HP gates and higher US gates the state installs those temporary spot portible spot cooling air conditioner units.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: ScottB
Posted 2006-01-19 21:45:45 and read 2839 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 9):
Brochures I have from 2003-2004 say that this narrow old section of D is supposed to be torn down and replaced this year. I don't know if that's still the plan. I'd imagine they would wait until B is finished so they could move Northwest over there first.

Actually, I'd think they'd move airlines over to the gates in Pier C which Southwest vacated once the new gates in A opened. The far half of C is actually pretty nice and only about ten years old; those gates were originally built mostly for Southwest in the mid-90's when US Airways was squatting on a half-used Pier D and WN wanted to grow quickly at BWI. Most of B was built in 1998-9, I'd guess the part being renovated is the stub and the old extension to B.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-19 21:52:24 and read 2826 times.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 1):
let's discuss the smith terminal at DTW

It's decades older than PHL-F and not a comparison. Discussion over.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 3):
Comparing PHL F to the Smith is irrelevant. The F terminal is a new building, Smith is ancient and due to be replaced.

Good answer.

Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 4):
I hope the state of PA finally goes ahead takes it over like they've been planning to do since the city corruption scandal started a couple years ago.

PA, for all intents and purposes, did take it over when Rendell gave concessions to US to stay in PHL vs PIT. As for PA taking it over financially... as a taxpayer of this fine commonwealth... I say let Philly choke on it. The other 9 million residents of PA shouldn't be responsible for it if PHL wants to keep it for themselves. The only way I support PA taking over aviation in PHL is if a completely new airport is built out of the city to a place with room for growth, but still wtih highway access. No amount of "CEP" can help Philly on the relatively small plot of ground they're currently on... and the billions that will be spent for the CEP will not bring enough capacity give a good enough return on investment as WN grows and US seeks new opportunities as well as compared to a brand new airport.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 9):
On topic--A terminal as new as PHL F should not leak....and if the city didn't write the contract to require the contractor to repair shoddy workmanship at their own cost, the pax, airlines, and concessionaires at PHL will probably wind up paying for it.

Correct, a building that new should never leak, period. PIT is about twice its age and not leaking as of when I was there in the rain last month. The design of it from an aviation operations standpoint is great in terms of the jetbridges for regional aircraft, et al. Structurally, it's downright frightening. Look around in the short-term garage for F. Large settling cracks are in the concrete beams/floors, and the pedestrian bridge connecting the garage over to the terminal. Par for the course though for the place which won't even put adequate lighting to maintain safety of passengers getting to their cars in the economy lots.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: AC773
Posted 2006-01-19 22:49:31 and read 2780 times.

My apologies. I wrote my reply in a hurry just as my lunch hour was coming to a close, and took the original post out of context.

I have only been through F once during rain, but I didn't notice any buckets around. Then again, it was light rain early in the morning. However, I did notice some trash about, and the gate areas were fairly messy.

However irrelevant it may be, I think we can all agree that the Simth terminal is in sorry shape. Many of the gates are abandoned, and it is in desperate need of a replacement. Quite frankly, it looks like a crack-house next to the shining star that is the McNamara terminal.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-01-19 22:52:51 and read 2771 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 12):
The only way I support PA taking over aviation in PHL is if a completely new airport is built out of the city to a place with room for growth, but still wtih highway access.

And were exactly could that be?

The Philadelpia Suburbs are too densely populated and you'd have serious NIMBY problems anywhere west of the Mainline unless you moved to Lancaster. Then you'd loose O&D traffic from South Jersey which would go to EWR before trying to go all the way out to the PA boonies for a flight.

PHL is in a good location as far as passenger convienece to the populatioin centers and Center City. It is just loacted poorly on the site. Hopefully the FAAs plans will fix that. However, I'm afraid we are stuck with the terminal complex we have now for good. They will improve it incrimentally, but they will never close and move it.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-19 23:21:08 and read 2737 times.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 13):


However irrelevant it may be, I think we can all agree that the Simth terminal is in sorry shape. Many of the gates are abandoned, and it is in desperate need of a replacement. Quite frankly, it looks like a crack-house next to the shining star that is the McNamara terminal.

Give it a little more time. NWA will almost have to give up some gates as they go through their struggles with dropping flights and whatnot, and everyone can just move over to the Mac. Skyteam in the current long-as-crap NWA-A concourse, other carriers in B&C where Delta/CO are. Is there enough room in B/C for the other non-Skyteam carriers over in Smith? I'd imagine *most* of them are bringing in RJ's of 737/A319 sized ac anyways, correct? I never go to DTW on anyone but NW/CO, so I can't vouch for what all is left over @ Smith.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 14):

PHL is in a good location as far as passenger convienece to the populatioin centers and Center City. It is just loacted poorly on the site. Hopefully the FAAs plans will fix that. However, I'm afraid we are stuck with the terminal complex we have now for good. They will improve it incrimentally, but they will never close and move it.

I do agree it's a good place, geographically. But as far as that plot of land, it sucks... and sadly there's no significant room to grow towards. I just don't see how they could rearrange that plot of land while keeping PHL in operation while the construction is going on.

I never really head towards that end of NJ thankfully, but what's the land situation looking like across the river? I know there are refineries right along the river, but what about a couple miles across... like CVG is to Cincy. Of course it wouldn't be PA paying to build it then.

Otherwise, let the city keep it, no need for the Commonwealth to spend my money on that place.  Smile

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-01-19 23:43:22 and read 2707 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 15):
I'd imagine *most* of them are bringing in RJ's of 737/A319 sized ac anyways, correct? I never go to DTW on anyone but NW/CO, so I can't vouch for what all is left over @ Smith.

Here's a recent shot that is not bad,

http://images.airliners.net/photos/photos/2/4/1/904142.jpg

You have Spirit in the old NW concourse at Smith, AA, HP, in the middle concourse, DL and CO left to the Mac. WN and UA should be in the far concourse, if you are looking at the above picture. It has been a long while since I was in DTW, can not seem to remember the letter codes for the Smith concourses. I always though Smith was nicer than the Davies terminal, and Berry was better than the Smith.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2006-01-19 23:46:54 and read 2697 times.

Actually, I'd think they'd move airlines over to the gates in Pier C which Southwest vacated once the new gates in A opened. The far half of C is actually pretty nice and only about ten years old; those gates were originally built mostly for Southwest in the mid-90's when US Airways was squatting on a half-used Pier D and WN wanted to grow quickly at BWI. Most of B was built in 1998-9, I'd guess the part being renovated is the stub and the old extension to B.

Scott....I posted B originally; I meant C. A few minutes later I edited it to read C, you must have seen it during those few minutes! The newer part of C is indeed nice, and should have plenty of room for NW, with WN moved over to A/B.

On my recent visits to BWI, it looks like the old B stub is indeed being torn up as part of the building of A/B.

Jim

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2006-01-20 00:00:10 and read 2676 times.

But it looks like it was designed and built in the 70's. Dingy, narrow etc. I work for FL and the gate areas from D-21 to the escalators leading to the commuter gates usually have air conditioner compressors that burn out each and every summer. As a matter of fact, at the HP gates and higher US gates the state installs those temporary spot portible spot cooling air conditioner units.

Wow, I'd never noticed that. I usually fly in the mid-morning, not the hottest part of the day, and my flights go mostly from D21 or 23. I haven't been out to the commuter area for several years; that area always looked kind of low-budget. Not dirty or poorly kept back then, just cheap--painted cinder-block walls, etc., and chintzy food carts parked in the hall intersection area at the base of the escalators.

The Ritazza coffee place at the main D split is almost as good as Starbucks, so I guess it can stay.  Smile

I hope that Philly can find some way to get those runways separated further; I would think moving UPS elsewhere on the field and pushing 9L/27R further south would be the least disruptive option.

Jim

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-20 00:11:37 and read 2660 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 18):

I hope that Philly can find some way to get those runways separated further; I would think moving UPS elsewhere on the field and pushing 9L/27R further south would be the least disruptive option.

Move 'em to ABE  Wink

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-01-20 02:18:31 and read 2584 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 15):
I do agree it's a good place, geographically. But as far as that plot of land, it sucks... and sadly there's no significant room to grow towards. I just don't see how they could rearrange that plot of land while keeping PHL in operation while the construction is going on.

I never really head towards that end of NJ thankfully, but what's the land situation looking like across the river? I know there are refineries right along the river, but what about a couple miles across... like CVG is to Cincy.

You will run into the same NIMBY problems in SNJ. Unless you moved it way out and south near Vineland. But that would make it as inconvient as a move west, and conflict with ACY. No PHL is stuck where it is.

The FAA is working on its plan, if they can keep ORD up and running while realigning that mess then they can keep PHL running through a realignment. They are the experts.

As for UPS moving the facility is probably going to be nessasary, however, such an important facility ought to be factored into the realignment and they will find a place for it. Moving to another city just doesn't give UPS the advantages the PHL has. PHL sits minutes from I-95 with easy acess to Western routes as well. And it is positioned roughly midway between NYC and Washington. Strategically, for UPS PHL is the Best location for a hub, remember with UPS you have to factor in the road routes as well. ABE is too remote. It is closer to NYC that Washington and has no easy access to Washington.

Couple that with the fact that Philadelphia will bend over backwards to keep a major employer like UPS in town...UPS is here to stay.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-20 02:23:19 and read 2573 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 20):
ABE is too remote. It is closer to NYC that Washington and has no easy access to Washington.

Couple that with the fact that Philadelphia will bend over backwards to keep a major employer like UPS in town...UPS is here to stay.

Oh I know that, the winky face was trying to show I was just kidding. Besides, they run int'l ops across the pond from PHL, I doubt our 7600' runway could help them whatsoever.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Crownvic
Posted 2006-01-20 06:24:39 and read 2446 times.

The terminals at PHL are in general shambles. Aside from the 'A' concourses, B-E are in disrepair. They are filthy dirty with trash cans spilling over. On a recent trip on NWA to PHL, the boarding area in the 'E' concourse had trash piled over the top of the trash cans, trash piled up on seats. It looked like a "4th world" airport terminal. My complaints to the NWA staff were responded to as if this is very normal. I picked up the airport courtesy phone and told them what I thought of their airport and what a shame they should be of it's appearance. They said that they would dispatch someone to clean it up. When our flight left an hour later, nobody ever showed to clean the messes up. Being form PHL originally, I was never so embarrasses by my old hometown airport. This is not an isolated case...A few months before, I flew out of the 'B' gates out on the end of the "T" area. This terminal looked like it had not been cleaned since it's renovation back in the '70's. Horribly stained carpets, trash all over, walls that looked like they had not been painted for years and seating that had rips in every cushion. It was the worst terminal I had ever seen in my life. The worst part is, both the airlines and the city really could care less.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-20 06:57:57 and read 2430 times.

Prepare for a barrage from a certain A.netter flaming us all... but I'm glad that more people agree with me now. I've taken ALOT of flaming from a select few individuals for voicing some of the exact same sentiments as you folks, especially Crownvic, here on A.net. Thank you all for not having me feel like I'm the only person who expects an airport to be reasonably clean, lit, etc.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: SonOfACaptain
Posted 2006-01-20 07:05:42 and read 2420 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 23):

Oh shut up with your PHL complaining.  wink 

-SOAC

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-01-20 07:20:29 and read 2404 times.

US Airways frequent flyers don't call it PHiLthy for nothing. The B and C concourses (which are the heart of the mainline domestic hub) are decrepit, run-down and poorly designed, with low ceilings and claustrophobic walled holdrooms.

The only saving grace of PHL is the graceful and vast US Airways Club which spans the B-C connector.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Vega
Posted 2006-01-20 07:45:08 and read 2390 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 23):
I've taken ALOT of flaming from a select few individuals for voicing some of the exact same sentiments as you folks, especially Crownvic, here on A.net. Thank you all for not having me feel like I'm the only person who expects an airport to be reasonably clean, lit, etc.

There is an old adage - if you repeat something enough maybe someone will agree with you.

No one is complaining about you expressing an opinion. What we all complain about is your incessant tirades about Philadelphia and it's airport. You complain about the traffic, the airport design, the type of aircraft you have to fly, etc., etc.- you even belittle the Governor. And that's OK once or twice, but it seems that you seek out every Thread which even remotely discusses Philadelphia or USAirways and commence to interject your mostly sarcastic nonsense. You repeat and repeat the same line like a small child struggling to be heard - Philadelphia is bad - move everything to wonderful little Allentown or Pittsburgh - both technically and politically absurd suggestions. It's too bad that you seem to have the need to draw this negative attention to yourself as you're obviously quite knowledgeable in many areas of this Forum's subject matter.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Vega
Posted 2006-01-20 07:52:15 and read 2375 times.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 25):
US Airways frequent flyers don't call it PHiLthy for nothing

Really? Name a few. Would you like to get me started on beautiful SFO (or OAK) - my home airports? Comments like the above convey nothing but immaturity and a need to be heard without substance.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: FCYTravis
Posted 2006-01-20 08:00:23 and read 2369 times.

Excuse me? Maybe you want to lose the attitude before just blowing someone off?

I *am* a US Airways/America West Gold Elite frequent flyer *from OAK.* I transit PHL fairly often - got an SFO-PHX-MCO-PHL-SFO itinerary coming up. Guess what? PHL *sucks.* Go to the US Airways board at FlyerTalk - *everyone* agrees that airport is a dump! From the awkward bus connections to Terminal F to the run-down concourses, PHL needs an upgrade *everywhere.*

OAK sure isn't the world's greatest airport, but it's well-maintained, clean and convenient - even Terminal 1. The only real complaint is the awkward security setup dictated by the old terminal design. SFO - well, OK, the domestic concourses are not great, but I don't see ripped seats, huge carpet stains, exposed wiring and missing ceiling tiles everywhere, like I do at PHL. Nor do I see 7 foot ceilings, dimly-lit holdrooms or chokepoint hallways.

Face it: PHL is beyond substandard for a major airline hub and anyone who transits there at all will tell you so.

[Edited 2006-01-20 08:02:29]

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Cgnnrw
Posted 2006-01-20 14:18:13 and read 2307 times.

Just about all that can be said on this topic has been but I can't resist so here's my two cents....

That Terminal F is already starting to show wear and tear shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone. That's just how things tend to turn out in Philadelphia. I'm not a Philly/PHL basher, I grew up in Southeast PA and for us in the country we had a love/hate relationship to both city and airport. It is a shame though a terminal less than 10 years old should not have these problems.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 14):
unless you moved to Lancaster.

This would simply be tooooooo good to be true. Non-stop service from Europe to my own backyard. However, there are two reasons why this is not a viable option: 1) too far from Philadelphia (as already mentioned) and 2) there would have to be extra precautions taken to prevent stray horse and buggies from crossing the runways.

As alreaday posted, PHL's location is not that bad there is space to improve terminal layout. I will not put on airs and pretend I know anything about logistics of building a new airport but this is what I came up with during my lunch hour:

Everyone will probably agree Terminal A West is a huge improvement over the older A East. Arriving from Europe in Terminal A West can not be compared to the time before A West. Since A East is where the other international airlines and AA are located why not move all the international airlines to A West? Surely there is room for this and its planned anyway, right? I don't think there would be a gate shortage would there? If gates are not available AA could use remote stands and pax be bussed to the planes. Sorry AA no offense intended....

Then tear down A East and build on to A West in the same style. When the "new" A East is finished AA, F9 and some US operations could operate from there. Then tear down terminal B and build on tn A East the same way with A WEst.
Then simply continue one terminal after another.

Eventally all terminals would be under "one" roof. Passengers would be able to move about freely among the terminals without having to go through seperate security checks as the case is now.

Yes, it would be a pain in the butt for a lot of pax and their airlines. However, there is a precedent that an airport can be rebuilut and still function....DUS. It was rebuilt after the 95/96 fire. Terminal A continued operating while the new terminals B & C were under construction. Okay, DUS is not a major hub in the same way PHL is but it worked the new DUS is really nice.

I know it wouldn't be so easy as this and there are tons of issues to be taken into consideration when buidling/designing an airport. Just my thoughts during the lunch break......

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-20 14:50:37 and read 2289 times.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 24):
Oh shut up with your PHL complaining.

You know who I was talking about... besides I didn't even start this time! lol.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 29):
Then tear down A East and build on to A West in the same style. When the "new" A East is finished AA, F9 and some US operations could operate from there. Then tear down terminal B and build on tn A East the same way with A WEst.
Then simply continue one terminal after another.

That works, for terminals. But the inherent problem is runway configuration, and there's no use putting hundreds of millions into the place unless you fix that too... which is the source of alot of the delays/blown connects/etc.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 28):
Excuse me? Maybe you want to lose the attitude before just blowing someone off?

Why? It's his standard operating procedure. Flame the hell out of people, pick a personal fight accusing them of doing stuff they've never done (Allentown hub? Come on!) and then leave the thread and airliners.net for a week or so because he knows he's been beaten... typically after having half his posts deleted. Dismiss anything he says, I'd say maybe 5% of his total posts have been on-topic and positively contributing to the thread, ever.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 28):
Face it: PHL is beyond substandard for a major airline hub and anyone who transits there at all will tell you so.

Exactly. But don't confuse him with the simple facts that anyone can see walking through it for the first time in their life.

Quoting Vega (Reply 26):
Philadelphia is bad - move everything to wonderful little Allentown or Pittsburgh - both technically and politically absurd suggestions.

If you can find me where I said to "move everything to wonderful little Allentown or Pittsburgh" I'll buy you a flight. Start searching. I may have said there's no reason to have all the flights from every rinky dink outpost in the Northeast connecting in Philly when there's no O&D anyways because they're so close to PHL they would drive it... but I sure as hell never said to move it all to Pittsburgh, I recognize the O&D qualities of PHL, it's just a horrible airport to connect in... and I DEFINITELY never said to move jack-sh*t to Allentown without a joke like the UPS comment above. Yeah, move a whole hub to an airport with 15 gates, brilliant, I recommend it DAILY! Until then, POST SOMETHING OF VALUE ON TOPIC TO THE THREAD!!! The topic of the thread is the horrendous condition of brand-new "F," caused mainly by shoddy construction and nobody maintaining it... not your reasons for having horrible attitude towards users who ARE IN THE MAJORITY. And finally, I've yet to see anyone put a gun up to your head begging you to read my posts. If you don't like it, don't read it!

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-01-20 16:34:45 and read 2242 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 30):
I recognize the O&D qualities of PHL, it's just a horrible airport to connect in...

I know one of the options the FAA originaly put on the table was a complete revamping of the runwas to angle them away from the river, right through territory currently occupied by terminal D, E and F. Had they done that then the airport would have a new main terminal and midfield terminals a al DEN. However, enviromental concerns and Delaware CO NIMBY organizations nixed that plan.

PHLs problem is that it grew organicly from the small O&D airport to the Hub it is today. The complaints people have about low ceilings few windows in some areas and difficulty navigating are pretty common. Don't think the airlines don't care. They certainly do. However, Most of those problems are the city's perview, and the city is corrupt and mismanaged and the city Unions are as well and it trickles down to the City employees how are apathetic about the running the airport. Come on, the company that is in charge of maintaining the baggage system is owned by the mayor brother, who created the company out of thin air to get the contract.

As for items the airlines do control money is the problem. We all know that the industry has been in a tailspin for 4 years, money for capital improvements just hasn't been available. I know that UA is currently refurbishing its remaining gates at PHL. The carpets where scary.

PHL is working on more pressing concerns right now. Not the least of which is getting its terrible security line problems under control. Terminal D/E are going to be redesigned. And that should make it brighter, and ease security problems as well as make connecting easier and navagation around the airport will be simplified. After that maybe they will tackle raising the rooves of the piers and making them brighter and more customer friendly, but for now the terminal layout is fixed.

To be honest other than the fact that terminal E is isolated fromt he other terminals, which will be fixed with the new D/E connector hall, I could never understand why PHL was so hard for people to figure out. Its simple piers with connecting halls.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-20 16:50:29 and read 2224 times.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 31):
To be honest other than the fact that terminal E is isolated fromt he other terminals, which will be fixed with the new D/E connector hall, I could never understand why PHL was so hard for people to figure out. Its simple piers with connecting halls.

Airports with similar "Ride the bus" strategies work better than PHL. I think PHL just needs more buses for better frequency. Even IAD isn't that bad for wait-time for the bus. If US was in say... D&E, then going to F wouldn't take as long, timewise.

Add to it that the ontime % isn't great... so that if you do miss a connect and have to wait for the next flight, you're waiting for a long time in the dirty mess... that's when you really notice it.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: DCA-ROCguy
Posted 2006-01-20 17:32:15 and read 2213 times.

To be honest other than the fact that terminal E is isolated fromt he other terminals, which will be fixed with the new D/E connector hall, I could never understand why PHL was so hard for people to figure out. Its simple piers with connecting halls.

I've used PHL many times and find it easy to navigate--there's just lots of going back to connecting walkways between concourses, like the old DTW NW hub. Given the money that PHL has recently invested in the existing layout, it' s no surprise that they don't want to tear it up. Besides which airlines can only absorb so much fee cost these days.

One question I have for you UAPHLCS: the alley between B and C seems exceptionally narrow, which I understand is of course because they're the two oldest concourses and were built in the prop-plane days. Does that affect US's operations at all?

I've long figured if one thing could be done to improve a/c ops at PHL's terminal while keeping the existing layout, it would be to demolish B and C and replace them with, say, a single y-shape concourse. That would also allow consolidating B and C security stations into one. Has US or PHL considered a move like that? I don't recall seeing anything at the master plan page.

Jim

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-01-20 18:28:42 and read 2187 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 33):
One question I have for you UAPHLCS: the alley between B and C seems exceptionally narrow, which I understand is of course because they're the two oldest concourses and were built in the prop-plane days. Does that affect US's operations at all?

Having never worked for US I don't know if it affects there operations dramatically. Dramatically being the operative word. I know UA, NW and WN have to wait for access to the alley between D and E. However, the wait is usually only a couple of minutes. So US should not be affected by only a few minutes.

It is true that that B and C are the Oldest terminals at PHL, you wouldn't know it from the passenger areas as they were improved in the 80s. The second oldest terminal is D. The Pier that is now D was the first extension of the airport. The Lobby of D was built in the late 70s when E and A were added, so D is a hybrid of the original and major revampment.

What does this all mean? Well, in order to "Fix" PHL someone is going to have to look at the airport as a whole system, and NOT as a series of seperately functioning terminals as they have been doing the past 40 years of expansion.

Looking at PHLs terminals as a whole, I would sugest the following.

A tram system connecting all terminals from A/West to F.
A redesign of the International Arrivals hall that will allow for easier domestic connections to other carriers other than US.
Faster completion of the D/E lobby redesign. This will help with security traffic, baggage traffic, and connect E with the rest of the airport on the secure side.

Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure if someone actually put there mind to it for a while more improvements could be suggested. Unfortunately, it just isn't a priority right now with the runways a mess.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Apodino
Posted 2006-01-20 18:37:04 and read 2177 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 32):
Airports with similar "Ride the bus" strategies work better than PHL. I think PHL just needs more buses for better frequency. Even IAD isn't that bad for wait-time for the bus. If US was in say... D&E, then going to F wouldn't take as long, timewise.

Everytime I go through PHL, the bus is waiting, it departs right away, and is very efficient. In fact, my last time through PHL, my inbound flight from PVD arrived into the C gates, and my connection to MKE left the F gates ten minutes after the brakes on my inbound were set. Guess what. I made the connection thanks to the efficient PHL airport. ORD, I would have been waiting for the bus, or I would have had too long a walk.

And its even more efficient since they have buses that go to A West nonstop from F, and C nonstop from F, and the buses are even accessible with escalators and the like. Try that in ORD.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2006-01-20 19:12:55 and read 2148 times.

There were signs posted that showed the alternative proposals for rebuilding PHL. The signs had a wbsite posted, but I can't remember it now. Can any of the PHL pholks post a link?

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-20 19:27:46 and read 2130 times.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 35):
Try that in ORD.

Comparing PHL to ORD is like comparing bin Laden to Sadaam... neither is any good, lol. The clincher in that comparsion though is that ORD does alot more than PHL... in terms of passenger throughput, despite it all.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 34):
What does this all mean? Well, in order to "Fix" PHL someone is going to have to look at the airport as a whole system, and NOT as a series of seperately functioning terminals as they have been doing the past 40 years of expansion.

Looking at PHLs terminals as a whole, I would sugest the following.

A tram system connecting all terminals from A/West to F.
A redesign of the International Arrivals hall that will allow for easier domestic connections to other carriers other than US.
Faster completion of the D/E lobby redesign. This will help with security traffic, baggage traffic, and connect E with the rest of the airport on the secure side.

Bravo!!!!!! Especially the Tram idea!

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: PHLBOS
Posted 2006-01-20 20:20:56 and read 2103 times.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 36):
There were signs posted that showed the alternative proposals for rebuilding PHL. The signs had a wbsite posted, but I can't remember it now. Can any of the PHL pholks post a link?

I have not seen the sign that you speak of, but I do have a web-link that might be the one you saw:
PHL Capacity Enhancement Website

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 33):
I've long figured if one thing could be done to improve a/c ops at PHL's terminal while keeping the existing layout, it would be to demolish B and C and replace them with, say, a single y-shape concourse.

One of the 3 proposed layouts (see above website for 8-26 East Option) calls for that.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 32):
If US was in say... D&E, then going to F wouldn't take as long, timewise.

Some many already know this, but for those that don't:

One thing to keep in mind regarding the current F design (in terms of utility not architecture or its construction fit-and-finish) was a 'low-cost' compromise to a more elaborate Terminal F design proposal (dating back to 1989-90) that would've housed all of US' domestic operations. US grabbed the Concourse C gates vacated by the original Midway and Eastern's shutdown (the 15th anniversary date just passed) in 1991 as a cost effective way of getting additional gates for expansion without requiring building a whole new terminal. As a result, the original Terminal F proposal was dropped in favor of building the current commuter-only Terminal F a few years later.

Anyway had the original Terminal F been built, the only bus shuttling of US passengers would have been those making an international connection.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 34):
Faster completion of the D/E lobby redesign. This will help with security traffic, baggage traffic, and connect E with the rest of the airport on the secure side.

The D-E consolidation project is broken down into 2 construction packages. The first package (Phase 1A) deals with the site demolition of the impacted area. Phase 1B deals with the building & site construction. If it hasn't already happened yet, the ground should be broken for Phase 1A work within the next month or so. The construction documents for the Phase 1B work is slated for to go up for bidding; I know this because there is an addendum submittal (due to updated utility connection locations) being furnished here in the office. My company is doing the Civil/Site engineering work (everything that is more than 5 feet away from the proposed building) for this project.

[Edited 2006-01-20 20:35:22]

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: USAFHummer
Posted 2006-01-20 20:44:53 and read 2071 times.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 33):
One question I have for you UAPHLCS: the alley between B and C seems exceptionally narrow, which I understand is of course because they're the two oldest concourses and were built in the prop-plane days. Does that affect US's operations at all?

US 757's and 767's are restricted to the gates at the end of the B/C concourses...

Greg

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: TOLtommy
Posted 2006-01-20 20:53:48 and read 2055 times.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
I have not seen the sign that you speak of, but I do have a web-link that might be the one you saw:
PHL Capacity Enhancement Website

That's the site, thanks!

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: SonOfACaptain
Posted 2006-01-20 23:02:19 and read 2016 times.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 30):
besides I didn't even start this time!

Oh I think you secretly started it.  wink 

-SOAC

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Crownvic
Posted 2006-01-21 05:57:29 and read 1924 times.

Once again, I am originally from PHL and spent 30 years of my life there, so it does give somewhat of a right to speak up about my old hometown. I have traveled through many airports throughout the world that are as old or older than PHL. The biggest problem is obviously the management of this airports failure to address the simple concerns posted earlier by myself. Most of my gripes are about superficial simple fixes. If a terminal was built in 2005 and had stains all over the carpet and trash cans were not emptied, it too would look like a dump. The point is, this is not a gripe about the operational constraints of the airport. It is about simple maintenance and clean-up that airport fails to do. If they would paint the walls in the B and C gates on occasion, empty trash cans and recover boarding area chairs more often instead of only 10% of the time, the airport would be 100% improved. The total lack of pride and simple not caring for the pax that use the facility are what gives it nearly as much gripes as the ATC delays. The operational problems that the airport faces are of a major magnitude and there is no easy solution. However, the simple cosmetic problems that are left unattended to are inexcusable and makes me ashamed of an airport that I was ever so proud of. Shame on the City of Philadelphia to allow this mess to continue.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: UALPHLCS
Posted 2006-01-21 06:36:00 and read 1899 times.

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 42):
The point is, this is not a gripe about the operational constraints of the airport. It is about simple maintenance and clean-up that airport fails to do. If they would paint the walls in the B and C gates on occasion, empty trash cans and recover boarding area chairs more often instead of only 10% of the time, the airport would be 100% improved.

Agreed. Well said.

However, as pointed out these are City matters and in a city as corrupt as Philadelphia is those simple easy fixes will probably not get done until the media is able to embarass the government into action.

It is a sad state of affairs but that's what comes from one party rule.

Topic: RE: PHL Terminal F = Why So Run Down Already?
Username: Tornado82
Posted 2006-01-21 06:41:27 and read 1896 times.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 41):

Oh I think you secretly started it. wink

-SOAC

I'm not one of those people who has multiple psuedonyms on here... I've got better things to waste money on than to give it to these people.


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