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Topic: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Anandt
Posted 2006-03-21 16:32:14 and read 6905 times.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1457444.cms

Quote:

A major air disaster was averted on Saturday evening over Mumbai's skies after a Russian aircraft climbed to the altitude at which an Emirates aircraft with 300 passengers on board was flying in from the opposite direction.

Both aircraft had moved towards each other at 35,000 ft above Mumbai due to the Russian pilot's failure to comprehend the Air Traffic Control (ATC)'s instructions.

Eventually, it was the traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) installed aboard the planes which alerted the pilots and made them switch to different altitudes.


[Edited 2006-03-21 16:32:40]

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: NYC777
Posted 2006-03-21 16:50:41 and read 6834 times.

EK502 was the Emirates flight. Anyone know the type?

I thought that all pilots are supposed to fluent on conversant English. Apparently the Russian pilot needs more training!

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: CalAir
Posted 2006-03-21 16:56:26 and read 6802 times.

Would the russian 757 have been Vim Airlines?

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Glidepath73
Posted 2006-03-21 16:59:18 and read 6784 times.

This reminds me of an terrible accident with a IL-76 and a 747 back in the mid 90's when both airliners collided due a misunderstanding of the Russian pilots regarding the altitude.
Really bad, they should think to separate the departure and arrival routes.
Otherwise it's just a matter of time until the next accident happens, as the incident from Saturday shows.
What does ICAO and IATA say regarding those bad route organization of Mumbai?

Regards,
Patrick

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: NYC777
Posted 2006-03-21 17:02:15 and read 6757 times.

Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 3):
This reminds me of an terrible accident with a IL-76 and a 747 back in the mid 90's when both airliners collided due a misunderstanding of the Russian pilots regarding the altitude.

That accident occured outside of Delhi.

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: PlaneHunter
Posted 2006-03-21 20:44:09 and read 6474 times.

Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.


PH

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Anandt
Posted 2006-03-22 10:32:44 and read 6152 times.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 5):
Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.

It was a non scheduled flight and so banning is going to be of not much use in such cases. In any event these guys could operate under a new name. Best way might be to penalise the aviation authority of these countries!

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Mika
Posted 2006-03-22 10:46:07 and read 6122 times.

English is the industry language and should be used in contact between ATC-A/C at all times all over the world where international traffic is present. Period.


The thing is that i think it´s actually not too uncommon that people chose to communicate in their home language instead of english when they fly/control airspace. That just lays the first of all the pieces needed for a disaster to happen, sad as it is.

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Kaitak
Posted 2006-03-22 10:53:45 and read 6098 times.

I don't disagree, but one of the major factors in the two most recent mid air collisions (over India and Switzerland) was the crew's confusion over what to do when faced with a TCAS warning. In both of those incidents, a contributory factor was that they failed to do as the TCAS called them to do.

You're quite right, Mika, in saying that many parts of the world, particularly France, still uses French out of sheer, well, Frenchness, on ATC communications, but the Spaniards and Germans still do so.

EK 502 is shown as an A330 in the airline guide, with a 3 class config, but if it's a healthy load, it could always be upgraded to a 772 or 773. A 3 class 332 seats around 240.

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Sebolino
Posted 2006-03-22 11:23:05 and read 6035 times.

Reminds me of this commercial for english lessons:

A German coastguard receives a message on the radio:

- "We are sinking ! We are sinking !"

- "What ... what are you thinking about ?" (with a German accent).


 Smile

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Cricket
Posted 2006-03-22 11:55:23 and read 5967 times.

After the Chakri-Dadri incident outside DEL - it was an Uzbek IL-76 not a Russian one - even reports of potential mid-air collisions get a lot of reportage. But it is correct that the airspace around BOM is a mess - tens of flights into BOM but it is also on the main Middle-East to South-East Asia track (which includes many SE Asia - Western Europe flights) which means that it deals with hundreds of flights every hour, but the equipment used by the ATC authorities has not been updated in a long time. It can barely keep up with the increase in domestic traffic, let alone flyover traffic.

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Nimish
Posted 2006-03-22 12:32:17 and read 5899 times.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 5):
Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.


While this may indeed be true in this case, keep in mind that the Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent, and may further increase the communication barrier. I don't know if there's any thought of sending the ATC to "accent neutralization" courses that are run across India. Sometimes even I have a tough time understanding some ATC controllers (and I'm a native).

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Anandt
Posted 2006-03-22 12:48:50 and read 5870 times.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 11):
Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent

Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language  Smile

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Ushermittwoch
Posted 2006-03-22 13:12:58 and read 5761 times.

So, how come nothing happened if the MISS was near...  gnasher 

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: ITA350
Posted 2006-03-22 14:05:48 and read 5289 times.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 9):
Reminds me of this commercial for english lessons:

A German coastguard receives a message on the radio:

- "We are sinking ! We are sinking !"

- "What ... what are you thinking about ?" (with a German accent).


Smile

i remember seeing that recently

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...78514075251375&q=german+coastguard

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Skymonster
Posted 2006-03-22 14:09:16 and read 5227 times.

Reminds me of that old joke (bastardised for this circumstance)...

Controller "Emirates 502 turn right 10 degrees for noise abatement"
Emirates "How much noise does an A330 make at 33,000'?"
Controller "Have you ever heard the noise that's made when an A330 hits a 757?"

Andy

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: AirIndia
Posted 2006-03-22 14:23:52 and read 5118 times.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 11):
Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent

Maybe they should be imparted the Cal Center type vocational training and be made to put fake accents. Maybe even a name change  Wink

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Speedbird128
Posted 2006-03-22 15:12:40 and read 4665 times.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 13):
So, how come nothing happened if the MISS was near...

They missed - and were near to each other at the time...

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: RIXrat
Posted 2006-03-22 15:21:11 and read 4552 times.

If I remember correctly, the Il76 was using meters instead of feet, a common practice in the former USSR.

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Chris78cpr
Posted 2006-03-22 15:26:59 and read 4515 times.

Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):



Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):
Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language

Lol, away from london? It gets harder and ahrder every day to understand some people in london! I walked into a pizza place and felt actually so misunderstood as none of the staff spoke bloody english!

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Merlin
Posted 2006-03-22 15:30:23 and read 4466 times.

The point here is wheather the pilots have done their job to avert a major disaster. YES. we all knw that the skies are getting crowded day by day and it is getting difficult for the CREWS both(ATC-and-COCKPIT) to handle the traffic.This is not only the incident where mishearing or not standing by the ATC instructions is concerned.THAT is the reason we got TCAS in the aircrafts to avoid unseen trouble.WE shud not forget 1 thing,the TCAS AND ATC INSTRUCTIONS are never on par with each other.Differernt countries have different accent for speaking,doesnt really mean they should have a english neutralisation course.Awareness is what is meant and the pilots involved in this incident did their job.Now if the investigation does report some error in the pilots,their career is at stake and the same with the ATC people.Lets leave assuming things till we have a complete true report.

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Csturdiv
Posted 2006-03-22 15:35:10 and read 4420 times.

Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):
Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language

I remember seeing an interview on on MTV with the band Oasis back in the mid to late 90s...I guess it was more mid 90s, this was when they were first breaking big here in the States. Anyway, MTV ran subtitles of the interview just because they were so hard to understand.

Topic: RE: Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai
Username: Boo25
Posted 2006-03-22 16:54:31 and read 3656 times.

OMG - my sister was flying EK sat night , DXB-MEL (EK406 i think).

This has just chilled me.

Thank god all are safe.........


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