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Topic: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: Luisde8cd
Posted 2006-03-24 21:57:43 and read 3565 times.

Two Fokkers with a total of 138 lives onboard almost collided over Central Colombia (Tolima Department). A SAM F50 and an Avianca F100 were involved in the incident which was probably caused by comm problems.

What a way to welcome the F100 to Colombian skies  Sad Thankfully nothing tragic happened.

http://www.unionradio.com.ve/Noticias/Noticia.aspx?NoticiaId=163511

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: MrMcCoy
Posted 2006-03-24 22:14:13 and read 3537 times.

Ugh.. can you post an english equivalent for those of us who can't interpret that link?

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: Luisde8cd
Posted 2006-03-24 22:20:41 and read 3520 times.

Quoting MrMcCoy (Reply 1):
Ugh.. can you post an english equivalent for those of us who can't interpret that link?

Nope. But can post a rough translation:

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish...fNoticia.aspx%3fNoticiaId%3d163511

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: MajorNelson
Posted 2006-03-24 22:22:22 and read 3515 times.

Quoting MrMcCoy (Reply 1):
Ugh.. can you post an english equivalent for those of us who can't interpret that link?

Uh ......

Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
Two Fokkers with a total of 138 lives onboard almost collided over Central Colombia (Tolima Department). A SAM F50 and an Avianca F100 were involved in the incident which was probably caused by comm problems

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: MrMcCoy
Posted 2006-03-24 22:24:06 and read 3506 times.

Much better, thank you Luis. That's quite a harrowing experience to be involved in (if the cabin knew what was happening at all).

I was involved in a near miss coming into St. Louis in 1997 on a TWA L-1011. We were about 200 ft from the threshold when the crew firewalled the throttles and floated us over a 737 that had entered the runway without permission. Scary.

That SAME crew later plopped us down HARD coming into Washington DC, using the entire runway for a braking rollout.

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: SOUTHAMERICA
Posted 2006-03-24 22:49:01 and read 3488 times.

Las aeronaves eran un reactor Fokker 100, que viajaba de Bogotá a Manizales con 57 personas a bordo, y un turbohélice Fokker 50 que volaba con 81 ocupantes de Pereira la capital colombiana.

Ouch.



SOUTHAMERICA

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: Legacy135
Posted 2006-03-24 23:15:29 and read 3452 times.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 5):
turbohélice Fokker 50 que volaba con 81 ocupantes de Pereira la capital colombiana.

Indeed very interesting to see that AV already operates that F50 stretch and Colombia moved it's capital  Wink

Well that is the fun part. The incident itself is anything else than funny and I am more than glad to see, that nothing happened. The question now is how close the planes finally came to each other. Normally authorities have to start an investigation, as soon as a crew reports an alert generated by the TCAS. If for example one plane is cleared to climb up to FL200, meanwhile the other is cleared to descend to FL210 and they both go to keep the assigned level, there will never be a danger and separation will always be fully granted. But if they both will level close to each other - and this is very often the case, as the one plane limits the other - both planes TCAS's will realize each other. If one of the crews is now having a vertical speed in excess of 1000 ft/min it can come up to a "RA" (Resolution Alert). This is the situation both planes command a deviation. Normally it only comes to "Traffic Traffic" or "Reduce Vertical Speed" in this situation, but I did already have a RA, caused from a fellow below climbing like hell.

This was now the case without the danger, but unfortunately the dangerous one happens to often as well. I personally don't think that the situation itself in our airspaces was worse than some years ago, The thing is, we didn't realize it that much the days before TCAS. But TCAS is a great system and I don't feel comfortable any more, flying without one. What is great, is that we do have now even low cost equipment for VFR use on the market, providing a remarkable good job for the money for all of us flying for pleasure and not being able to buy a quarter million dollar system

Safe skies, happy landings and best regards,

Legacy135 Wink

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: Summa767
Posted 2006-03-25 12:32:39 and read 3337 times.

A few more details about this incident have emerged:

Avianca's CEO was on the F100 flight from PEI to BOG, as well as the vice-minister for transport and the secretary to the Colombian president.
A passenger on the other plane, the F50 going to Manizalez was the director of the Colombian institute for education credit and training overseas (ICETEX), Martha Lucía Villegas. She described how she felt a scare as the the plane made 3 consecutive drops, for what must have been 4 seconds, but "a very long 4 seconds". The rest of the flight was normal, but she did worry when once on land the captain explained to the passengers that what they experienced was a manoeuvre in response to avoid another plane coming in the oppossite direction.
Aerocivil's director has said that the investigation may not be complete for 3 months, but he did say that it seemed that one of the aircraft did not comply with an instruction. Whether this was due to a fault in communications or anything else, we will have to see.


I have wondered before -and I am not saying it was the F100s pilot fault here!- whether pilots who are newly certified to an aircraft type are more likely to make a mistake, given that they are still in the process of making themselves comfortable with the new type. I know they would have had simulator time, and training flights, but I can only imagine that it takes more than that to feel totally at home and thus a great amount of concentration is required for every task.

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: Luisde8cd
Posted 2006-03-25 14:17:10 and read 3302 times.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
Indeed very interesting to see that AV already operates that F50 stretch and Colombia moved it's capital

SouthAmerica missed a letter "a", it should read:

"turboh�lice Fokker 50 que volaba con 81 ocupantes de Pereira A la capital colombiana."

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 7):
Avianca's CEO was on the F100 flight from PEI to BOG, as well as the vice-minister for transport and the secretary to the Colombian president.

Maybe that is why this incident managed to get so much media attention.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: Summa767
Posted 2006-03-25 14:54:29 and read 3279 times.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 8):
Maybe that is why this incident managed to get so much media attention.

Don't think so. It seems that AV's CEO did not know of the incident until he was back in his office! Indeed, it seems that the F100 he was on did not react to the TCAS! The incident report was made public by the controllers association.

I have just heard an interview with a spokeswoman for the controllers, who explained how she sees the incident at the moment, and how they are taking it very seriously.

The incident was rated as "moderate", with 84 points in their ranking. The closest distance the aircraft got to each other was of 6.5 Km.

She said that the SAM crew failed to act on an original instruction by ATC, and then again on a corrective one. As I understand the SAM crew was told to hold at 17000 ft, but they continued descending.
She also said that the F50 crew acted with total adhesion to instructions and procedures, following TCAS when it was activated. In contrast, there was not a similar response from the F100. Whether TCAS did not activate, or the crew did not comply we will have to see.
She also said how the crew of the F100 also made a mistake on approach at BOG as they started lining up to a different runway to the one they had been assigned. They did correct their path and landed in the one instructed.

As it stands, there seems to be a big question mark over the actions of the SAM crew.

The controllers spokeswoman, who is as keen as the airlines in fully co-operating with the investigation led by Aerocivil, said that the main purpose of this will be to learn from this incident, rather than just apportioning blame.

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: RCS763AV
Posted 2006-03-25 15:43:53 and read 3261 times.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Thread starter):
A SAM F50 and an Avianca F100 were involved in the incident which was probably caused by comm problems.



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 8):
turboh�lice Fokker 50 que volaba con 81 ocupantes de Pereira A la capital colombiana."

That article is WRONG!

1. The F-50 was from AV and the F100 from MM.
2. No fokker 50 can carry 81 people, it was the F100.
3. No Fokker 100 can land in Manizales, it was a F-50 operating that flight.

Here is an article with the news spelled out right:

http://eltiempo.terra.com.co/naci/20...LO-WEB-_NOTA_INTERIOR-2809720.html

Theres a part narrated by the director of ICETEX institute, the planes had the incident over the town of Ambalema, in the Tolima- Cundinamarca border, the F50 was operating flight AV9926 BOG-MZL and had departed 50 minutes late from BOG, the flight was completely full with 52 pax and 5 crew on board. It was the plane which performed the maneuver so the pax felt everything, and the pax on the F100 felt nothing.

The F100 was operating flight MM8502, PEI-BOG with 81 people on board, 75 pax and 6 crew, which means there were 6 seats open on that flight.

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: SOUTHAMERICA
Posted 2006-03-25 18:45:10 and read 3225 times.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 8):
SouthAmerica missed a letter "a", it should read

 eek 

I copied and pasted the statement directly from the article Luis. No, really, for such a short piece of writing, it is rather poorly-written, not to mention the couple of factual mistakes in it.

Regarding the incident; not as an excuse, but the even did happen on one of Colombia's most active points in air-traffic, given that a high proportion of the inbound/outbound traffic to/from Bogota includes Ambalema as part of the flight plan.

So, within the rather low possibilities of having a collision in mid-air, the odds are higher in these points, where I assume a slight mistake is much more serious and risky than in other zones. Let's see what the investigation brings out.


SOUTHAMERICA

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: Summa767
Posted 2006-03-25 19:20:51 and read 3210 times.

Given my conjecture in reply 7 that a pilot new to a type might have been a contributing factor, I have to say that this is seeminly not so on this case. A pilot's representative explained that his collegue in charge of the SAM F100's involved in this case was experienced on this type of aircraft. He is canadian [ex Jets go?]. and has been in Colombia only for 1 month.

Now one has to wonder if the lack of experience of flying in Colombia was a contributing factor somehow. Language problems wth ATC and/or his co-pilot, perhaps?

ATC in Colombia deals in English as well as Spanish, but what language was being spoken between the differnet parties is one of things that will have to be looked at.

[Edited 2006-03-25 19:21:45]

Topic: RE: Near-miss Over Colombia (AV F100, SAM F50)
Username: A300AA
Posted 2006-03-25 19:27:00 and read 3206 times.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 12):
ATC in Colombia deals in English as well as Spanish, but what language was being spoken between the differnet parties is one of things that will have to be looked at.

Obviously Spanish.

on domestic flights radio comunications goes allways in spanish .


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