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Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OyKIE
Posted 2006-03-21 12:43:33 and read 8924 times.

Quote:
Delta Air Lines needs to have a cost-saving agreement with its pilots soon, CEO Gerald Grinstein said yesterday."They have to reach that agreement. We have got to get that done by late spring," he told ATWOnline in Atlanta.

The two sides agreed to arbitrate the company's motion but the pilots have threatened to strike if the arbitrator sides with management and the airline imposes a new contract.

Grinstein warned that Delta "will not survive a 24-hour pilot strike." He also said concern over a strike already has had a negative effect on forward bookings but declined to quantify the impact.


How bad is the situation at Delta?

Read more at: http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=4428

[Edited 2006-03-21 12:44:13]

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: DeltaGator
Posted 2006-03-21 13:07:45 and read 8888 times.

Of course he is going to say that trying to strengthen the management position. Personally I think they could survive a 24 to 48 hour strike but it would hurt the bk efforts. Anything beyond that timeframe could very well be the final straw.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-21 13:14:26 and read 8868 times.

I would have to agree wit GG on that one, the rumers are alreday hurting DL,
stop operation for 24 hrs. or more would probable be the final nail in DL's
coven.....
Lets hope they can turn around  Smile

Cheers,

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Panamair
Posted 2006-03-21 14:02:50 and read 8782 times.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
Personally I think they could survive a 24 to 48 hour strike but it would hurt the bk efforts. Anything beyond that timeframe could very well be the final straw.

One of the conditions of the GE and/or AMEX DIP financing arranged last year is that the loan can be called in if there is anything more than a 48 hour strike.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: NA
Posted 2006-03-21 14:42:53 and read 8701 times.

The most common and generic comment a CEO can make to threaten his employees is to say "We won´t survive a strike". Yawn.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Kanebear
Posted 2006-03-21 14:49:42 and read 8688 times.

Quoting NA (Reply 4):
The most common and generic comment a CEO can make to threaten his employees is to say "We won´t survive a strike". Yawn.

Apparently you weren't reading.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 3):
One of the conditions of the GE and/or AMEX DIP financing arranged last year is that the loan can be called in if there is anything more than a 48 hour strike.

Sounds like a lot more than a yawn to me.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-21 17:18:46 and read 8484 times.

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 5):
Quoting NA (Reply 4):
The most common and generic comment a CEO can make to threaten his employees is to say "We won´t survive a strike". Yawn.

Apparently you weren't reading.

Yawn  yawn  I was, and I seen this sort of statement for fifty years. DL may well go under, but it will because of management stupidity and this is typical of such management.

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 5):
Quoting Panamair (Reply 3):
One of the conditions of the GE and/or AMEX DIP financing arranged last year is that the loan can be called in if there is anything more than a 48 hour strike.

Sounds like a lot more than a yawn to me.

 yawn  They are going call in a loan and cause the the collapse of the airline and then loose their money. Gimme a break. They will do anything they can go keep that loan going.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-21 17:44:50 and read 8420 times.

we'll all know in 3 weeks the fate of delta. It's all boiling down to these last three weeks. Then, we will know what the fate of Delta will be. Anyone have any guesses? A last minute DL and DALPA agreement comes to mind for me.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2006-03-21 17:52:48 and read 8392 times.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 7):
we'll all know in 3 weeks the fate of delta. It's all boiling down to these last three weeks. Then, we will know what the fate of Delta will be. Anyone have any guesses? A last minute DL and DALPA agreement comes to mind for me.

 checkmark 

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-21 17:58:35 and read 8371 times.

You people are nuts. Don't you remember Eastern?

These unions had better start taking what they can get. A cut in pay is much better then not having a job.

If the pilots go on strike, I won't feel bad if DL goes under. There are no jobs for pilots at the moment. The other unions had better start pressuring the pilots, or else its over.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2006-03-21 18:53:39 and read 8241 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
If the pilots go on strike, I won't feel bad if DL goes under. There are no jobs for pilots at the moment. The other unions had better start pressuring the pilots, or else its over.

That's the problem AC7E7, there are no unions at Delta. For years, employee relations have been the pinnacle of this industry and the employees never felt the need to unionize.

Hopefully in time the pilots will see their options and make the choice they feel is right. The big question is do you fight for integrity or fight for a better tomorrow?

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Ken777
Posted 2006-03-21 19:47:32 and read 8159 times.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 10):
The big question is do you fight for integrity or fight for a better tomorrow?

As someone who (years ago) worked for a company that went under I'm a firm believer in avoiding liquidation. It's nice to make a lot of money, but it's not nice to see a lot of jobs lost - especially when you know the people in those jobs.

The pilots are probably in the best position of all the employees (I understand that EK needs pilots) but they do need to remember the lessons learned at Eastern.

On the management side, I'm a firm believer that they should be taking larger cuts than they ask of their employees. That's the only way to demonstrate that the problem is serious.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Lumberton
Posted 2006-03-21 19:58:16 and read 8129 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
There are no jobs for pilots at the moment.

Maybe not in the U.S. but in certain other markets around the world, there is a shortage of pilots. India, the middle east(?), Philippines,etc. Now I doubt that many of these guys would want to take a job outside the U.S. or relocate their families, but there are vacancies elsewhere.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Alias1024
Posted 2006-03-21 20:07:17 and read 8099 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
There are no jobs for pilots at the moment

Southwest, JetBlue, Continental, FedEx, and UPS are all hiring in the US. Maybe Frontier as well. Foreign carriers are also hiring, including Emirates and Cathay Pacific.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-21 20:17:27 and read 8077 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
These unions had better start taking what they can get. A cut in pay is much better then not having a job.

Having been unemployed numerious times, I always looked upon unemployment as an opportunity. IF DL can't hack the current market, let them go under. Nobody is going to starve.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: N766UA
Posted 2006-03-21 20:45:53 and read 7998 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
If the pilots go on strike, I won't feel bad if DL goes under.

What about us, the other employees who are just hanging in the balance? Surely we haven't done anything to deserve losing our jobs. Sure our managment sucks and our pilots are sick of it, but aren't we all? Can you imagine the number of jobs lost just at ATL alone? That place would be a ghost town!

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: TL8490
Posted 2006-03-21 20:49:10 and read 7992 times.

Having been unemployed numerious times, I always looked upon unemployment as an opportunity. IF DL can't hack the current market, let them go under. Nobody is going to starve.[/quote]

Your numerous unemployments couldn't have anything to do with your attitude could it???

Delta will survive and thrive ....the pilots have now been put on notice that their actions are starting to affect bookings....this will end quickly because the last thing that want now is for Delta to have to ask for more because of poor revenue numbers.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-21 20:50:28 and read 7992 times.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 13):
Southwest, JetBlue, Continental, FedEx, and UPS are all hiring in the US. Maybe Frontier as well. Foreign carriers are also hiring, including Emirates and Cathay Pacific.

All of Delta's pilots finding themselves unemployed will create a large surplus in pilots. Much more than what is needed on the market. Throw in Northwest's potential chapter 7 filing, and many of them will be receiving food stamps before long.

Foreign carriers may be hiring, however considering very few pilots would be willing to relocate their families, as well as available pilots in other countries, I wouldn't consider the demand to be that high.

Time to stop screwing around and take what the company is offering. Better making that then nothing at all.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-21 20:50:41 and read 7992 times.

[quote=Ken777,reply=11]On the management side, I'm a firm believer that they should be taking larger cuts than they ask of their employees. That's the only way to demonstrate that the problem is serious

Agree 100%, what gets me too is the incompetence in regard of more and more pay cuts which make me believe there finance department can not get a clear picture of what reality is........ (how much money they really have to safe).

Sure there are jobs available in the US or somewhere else in the world, but if I worked 15-25 or more years for DL I would think twice about the consequences starting at zero, different country, work environment.....

It would be nice if some ex Eastern people could give us some insight how it worked out in the end for them.

Lets hope in the next 3 weeks DL will find a way......

Cheers,

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-21 20:51:51 and read 7979 times.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 2):
I would have to agree wit GG on that one, the rumers are alreday hurting DL,
stop operation for 24 hrs. or more would probable be the final nail in DL's
coven.....

*grabs the hammer*

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Yawn I was, and I seen this sort of statement for fifty years. DL may well go under, but it will because of management stupidity and this is typical of such management.

This is a first for Grinstein. When he was at Western, he managed to corral the pilots group and flight attendants group to reasonable agreements, but, that was Western, this is Delta, which is in a far worse position than Western ever was.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
You people are nuts. Don't you remember Eastern?

These unions had better start taking what they can get. A cut in pay is much better then not having a job.

Is the IAM at DL in any way?

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
If the pilots go on strike, I won't feel bad if DL goes under.

Same here.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: SeaTran
Posted 2006-03-21 20:52:16 and read 7979 times.

Yes, the job market for pilots today isn't nearly as bad as it was three or four years ago. In the US, off the top of my head, the following airlines are hiring: FedEx, UPS, Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue, Continental, and Frontier. The situation would not be entirely doom and gloom for Delta pilots if they do strike.

I know that most pilots in the US are indeed hoping that the Delta pilots do strike and it's not at all because we want to see Delta go under. We want airline management industry-wide to know that if mangement pushes things too far, the pilots have the power to, and will, burn the house down.

Pilot pay is at a level now where piloting is essentially a glorified blue-collar job. As much as the flying public has historically resented pilots for being overpaid, they also have taken comfort in the fact that there were very highly qualified folks up front ensuring their safety. The current trend is that talented and qualified people with other career options are opting out of continuing their career as pilots. The bottom line is that, at some point, the flight deck talent drain will effect air safety.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-21 21:24:14 and read 7881 times.

Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
We want airline management industry-wide to know that if mangement pushes things too far, the pilots have the power to, and will, burn the house down.

Scorched earth policy.... very nice. If there are many jobs out there, why aren't the pilots applying en masse at all these airlines that seem to be hiring... I'll tell you why - they all pay a fraction compared to Delta. You make it sound like it is no big deal. Open your eyes, when thousands of unemployed pilots flood the market looking for work, they will feel the pain.

Understand the facts: The pilots go on strike, its over. No more pay... pensions are gone.... benefits are gone... and it will be a long time before all the pilots are back at work.

Another newsflash: While the pilots and other employees are waiting for their unemployment cheques, Delta's executives will be working at another airline.

But you are willing to screw over the other thousands of employees at Delta. But who cares, right? What did you say? You will "Burn the house down" if it sticks it to management?

You have reinforced my belief that unions and militant employee groups are nothing but scum. You are despicable.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-21 21:33:29 and read 7854 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
You people are nuts. Don't you remember Eastern?

What ever happened to the Eastern employees? In particular, the older, more senior pilots, F/A's, etc.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: N766UA
Posted 2006-03-21 21:37:08 and read 7849 times.

Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
if mangement pushes things too far, the pilots have the power to, and will, burn the house down.

With all the kids stuck in the basement. Thanks, guys!

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Foxecho
Posted 2006-03-21 21:46:34 and read 7822 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 21):

You have reinforced my belief that unions and militant employee groups are nothing but scum. You are despicable.

Amen

Andrew
JFK/MEM/MCI

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: DeltaGator
Posted 2006-03-21 22:22:36 and read 7751 times.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 19):
Is the IAM at DL in any way?

Are you referencing the Mechanics union? If so, then no. The pilots are the only unionized folks at Delta. Up until the last few years starting with dingleberry Mullin the labor relations at DL were among the best in the industry.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KarlB737
Posted 2006-03-21 22:23:51 and read 7751 times.

Courtesy: The Associated Press

Delta Pilots Begin New Round Of Picketing

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060321/delta_pilots.html?.v=2

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Yellowtail
Posted 2006-03-21 23:01:55 and read 7494 times.

This whole DL thing is Eastern all over again.....could ATL be cursed? Is Airtran next?

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-21 23:05:33 and read 7471 times.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 27):
could ATL be cursed?

I doubt it, as long as the IAM stays away, or if the pilots give in.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 27):
Is Airtran next?

I hope not, I just bought yet another 1500 shares today!

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-21 23:13:16 and read 7398 times.

Sea Tran: If they had a disrespect list, you'd be on mine.
AC7E7: Thanks for speaking up.

I'm so sick of pilots who feel paycuts are unfair. As an aviation enthusiast, I obviously have a tremendous amount of respect for pilots. However, let's face it. A pilot is not a doctor or a CEO. To me this is very simple. If a companies cost structure is not sustainable, they shouldn't and ultimately will not be in business. It has absolutely nothing to do with being fair or not. I know it's painful, but we are seeing that now. Pilots will never ever again make the inflated salaries they once did, because it defies economics. However, I do think it is sad how low RJ and other younger pilots make. While I agree that a 777 captain should make more than a CRJ Captain, the disparity should be much lower. I understand there are more pax, but is the job really 10X harder? Does it take 10X the skill? I can also assure you that despite the industry wide lowering of pilot salary, they will still continue to attract and train quality pilots. Are cars less safe now because we pay the people who make them less?

On another note, I find it very sad that Delta's management seems to believe pilot pay cuts are going to lead them to salvation. Because guess what. Even if they get the pay concessions they are looking for, the airline will still be in the red. Does anybody know if they have any real plans to be profitable?

Finally, it is also sad to be an armchair CEO watching Delta and other airlines say that their ticket to the future is more international flying. I agree that it is much more profitable currently, but it is only a matter of time before more next-generation LCC's are duking it out on many of these routes. It seems like just yest, airlines were saying that trans-cons were the way to go. Now we see that even Jetblue is seeing this isn't necessarily the case.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-21 23:21:34 and read 7335 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 29):
While I agree that a 777 captain should make more than a CRJ Captain, the disparity should be much lower. I understand there are more pax, but is the job really 10X harder? Does it take 10X the skill?

A CRJ pilot might make 4-5 flights a day to some podunk airports, but you know what, those 4-5 flights day add up when all a 777 pilot does is fly ATL-LGW and back then goes home for the rest of the month with a martini in his hands. I tend to think the Regional pilots USE more skill everyday compared to the heavies.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-21 23:22:11 and read 7335 times.

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 16):
Your numerous unemployments couldn't have anything to do with your attitude could it???

No, I was as risktaker. I worked for startups and many folded. However, those than didn't gave me a nice retirement, which I control and I don't have to worry about my retirement being cancelled.  Big grin

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-21 23:23:53 and read 7335 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 29):
AC7E7: Thanks for speaking up.

Thanks, but I'll likely get my post removed for being 'rude'

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 29):
I find it very sad that Delta's management seems to believe pilot pay cuts are going to lead them to salvation.

I doubt Delta's management believes that only these cuts will save the airline. This is one way to cut costs. There are other ways the airline is cutting costs, however because this is such a contentious issue, we are only hearing about this one cut.

The same thing happened up here when Air Canada was in bk protection. The unions threatened to collapse the airline because of the cuts, even going as far as throwing racist comments to a major potential investor from Taiwan. After the investor withdrew his investment and nobody was coming forward to invest, the unions started to panick and eventually agreed to cuts when Cerebus offered to invest.

This is the problem with unions and militant employee groups - they can't see past their own punch cards.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: DL021
Posted 2006-03-21 23:24:47 and read 7318 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Yawn I was, and I seen this sort of statement for fifty years. DL may well go under, but it will because of management stupidity and this is typical of such management.

Wow...so you're casually ok with sacrificing tens of thousands of jobs of other employees so the pilots can remain higher paid than profitable airlines' pilots.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 18):
It would be nice if some ex Eastern people could give us some insight how it worked out in the end for them.

I'll help you out with that. One guy who flew for them is now a used car wholesaler. My brother was an employee there and is now a swimming pool manufacturors rep. Neither one are in the industry now. That story is repeated thousands of times.

Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
The situation would not be entirely doom and gloom for Delta pilots if they do strike.

For whom? The percentage of pilots that do find jobs? Or the tens of thousands who would be out of work, and the ancillary regional depression that would cause? Get out of your box.

Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
We want airline management industry-wide to know that if mangement pushes things too far, the pilots have the power to, and will, burn the house down.

Yeah...that's badass....burn the mother down. That'll make sure they have high paying jobs. Why don't you simply ask for a percentage of profits, and a seat at the table so you can impact profits from a management oversight position? Scared to take your chances?

How many pilots are flying for the money? How many would be flying if it cost them money?

Fly the planes and take a cut. Stop whining because not one of you demanded to adjust your pay as the airline started losing money, and not one of you demanded that you not take the raise as the airline was going downhill.

Don't put others on the street because you want to put your kids in private school and afford the Mercedes. It's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.....and the pilots who actually want Delta to fail so it scares your own airline....you guys are vultures.

Topic: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-21 23:25:11 and read 7318 times.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 15):
Can you imagine the number of jobs lost just at ATL alone? That place would be a ghost town!

At least AirTran would be there to help fill in the gaps, minus the international flying.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-21 23:39:50 and read 7197 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 21):
Scorched earth policy.... very nice. If there are many jobs out there, why aren't the pilots applying en masse at all these airlines that seem to be hiring... I'll tell you why - they all pay a fraction compared to Delta. You make it sound like it is no big deal. Open your eyes, when thousands of unemployed pilots flood the market looking for work, they will feel the pain.

Nope, it's because of seniority. If you didn't have to start over at the bottom of the another seniority list every time you jumped from one airline to another, you'd see a mass exodus from Delta to other more stable jobs. And who pays a fraction compared to delta? You seem to forget they've already taken 14% paycuts. Southwest pilots by far out earn delta pilots on similair equipment.

This thread is becoming more of the typical Airliners.net Pilot-hating and bending the truth about pilot pay. Some of you will not rest until we all make less than greyhound bus drivers, and a lot of us already do.

The fact is, Delta has already lost a large number of its senior pilots who opted for early retirement in the face of 9/11 and bankruptcy.

If Delta cannot afford to pay it's pilots and other workers, it's time to close the doors of the company. Management shouldn't subisidize thier failures by continuosly coming to labor groups for paycuts. It would be one thing if this was the first ime Delta had asked for a pay cut in the past few years....but it's not.

Either downsize and furlough some people or close the whole thing up. You have to pay the people who are working what they're worth, and they're worth what they negotiate.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-21 23:47:12 and read 7150 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 35):
Either downsize and furlough some people or close the whole thing up.

Hmm, as much as I would cherish the the thought of DL closing shop, I'd hate to see what it would do to SLC's economy, all though other airlines combined make up almost the same amount of daily flights that SLC won't suffer TOO hard from service reductions.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 35):
You have to pay the people who are working what they're worth, and they're worth what they negotiate.

IAM unions and DL pilots are NOT worth what they negotiate, IMHO.  box 

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-21 23:58:16 and read 7062 times.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
and a seat at the table so you can impact profits from a management oversight position

Let's not go that far. Other airlines have tried this: UA, CP, TWA, etc. It doesn't work.


All these guys here that are saying that they have heard such threats from management in the past still believe their jobs are secured. This is what their unions leaders want them to believe. All I can say is good luck to you. They follow their union leadership blindly, even if that means a scorched earth policy.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-22 00:01:38 and read 7039 times.

[quote=KAUSpilot,reply=35] It would be one thing if this was the first ime Delta had asked for a pay cut in the past few years....but it's not.

That what makes me angry too like there is no tomorrow, it is one thing sitting
down and find a solution to the problem like wages......... but lately it is like buying a new car, bargain over price and the price changes 5 times, that is why I can understand the pilots reaction for being pi..ed.

I guess a lot of people realize here that the pilots have a lot of leverage in a
Airline and yes they can make it or brake it..................

Blaming each other is the wrong way at this point, I guess every Pilot at DL
has to ask him self, do I want a pay check from Delta or ...... TBA

And what ever they will do is fine as long they can live with consequences
of there decision.

Cheers,

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-22 00:01:57 and read 7039 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 37):
All these guys here that are saying that they have heard such threats from management in the past still believe their jobs are secured. This is what their unions leaders want them to believe. All I can say is good luck to you. They follow their union leadership blindly, even if that means a scorched earth policy.

AC7E7, welcome to my RU list! If the IAM is one of the unions leading employees, say goodbye to those airlines.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Alitalia744
Posted 2006-03-22 00:25:52 and read 6890 times.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 36):
Hmm, as much as I would cherish the the thought of DL closing shop

how can you cherish an airline shutting down? WTF

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: ATCT
Posted 2006-03-22 00:37:34 and read 6804 times.

As a Delta Employee....

POWER TO THE PILOTS!

What the airline wants of them is not right. I support them 100% and will gladly move to another airline. We are no longer the "Employee Owned Airline" of yesteryear when we bought a 767-200 for OUR company.

Give management hell ALPA, I'll support em no matter what.


-ATCT

(Besides, im leaving in 3 weeks for a better airline...)

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-22 00:39:36 and read 6776 times.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 40):
how can you cherish an airline shutting down?

As much as I can cherish going to law school so I can do my part in helping bring down the IAM.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Db373
Posted 2006-03-22 00:55:55 and read 6697 times.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 38):
And what ever they will do is fine as long they can live with consequences
of there decision.

But why should the other employees have to live with the consequences as well? Striking and shutting down the airline not only affects the pilots, but it also has an effect on all the other employees who weren't making +$200,000.00 a year, and who didn't have the money to save what those pilots should have saved.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 41):
As a Delta Employee....

POWER TO THE PILOTS!

What the airline wants of them is not right. I support them 100% and will gladly move to another airline. We are no longer the "Employee Owned Airline" of yesteryear when we bought a 767-200 for OUR company.

Give management hell ALPA, I'll support em no matter what.


-ATCT

(Besides, im leaving in 3 weeks for a better airline...)

What the airlines wants from them should have happened a long time ago. Good luck in your new position. Your support for all your coworkers who aren't young enough or don't have the luxury to switch jobs is admirable and typical of our generation.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 01:02:30 and read 6668 times.

Didn't we already have this discussion 2 weeks ago....of course the thread got deleted, someone's feelings got hurt, and my valuable contributions were rewarded with a 3 day ban.

Lawyers fantasizing about union-busting and taking airline pay down to minimum wage for everyone except managment, now there's a scary though. As long as you can fly from JFK to Ft. Myers and back for 200 bucks who cares! Can't even pile in your chevy cavalier and drive it for that much.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2006-03-22 01:09:38 and read 6611 times.

Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
The bottom line is that, at some point, the flight deck talent drain will effect air safety.

Explain this please, but before you do, let me give you a quote by Bob Serling, THE aviation writer of the 20th century.
A airline pilot once told Mr. Serling, "I dont care how many people are on my plane. The only person I want to get down safe and in one piece....is me."

Taking that quote into consideration, explain this "safety drain".
safe

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-22 01:11:24 and read 6611 times.

Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
In the US, off the top of my head, the following airlines are hiring: FedEx, UPS, Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue, Continental, and Frontier.

Fedex has 20,000 resumes on file waiting to be looked at.

UPS has 18,000 resumes on file waiting to be looked at.

Continental-?

Southwest may be hiring, but the pilot has to get his own 737 rating, something that usually costs a few thousand bucks. Unless he is flying or has flown a 737 for DL, he won't be considered until he goes and gets one.

Airtran, Jetblue, Frontier-All LCC's that most DL pilots despise. Plus, their pay is much lower than what DL pilots make now and probably will still be after the cuts.

Those numbers come from a DL pilot friend. Here's a question. If all those other airlines are hiring and are so much better, why aren't Delta pilots starting ground school for them right about now?

Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
We want airline management industry-wide to know that if mangement pushes things too far, the pilots have the power to, and will, burn the house down.

What an ass! A company that is in dire need of these cuts for survival, and you think that management is demanding these cuts just because they can? If they don't get these cuts, everyone will be out of a job and be much worse off. Is that better? I think not.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 21):
You have reinforced my belief that unions and militant employee groups are nothing but scum. You are despicable.

Amen to that. I would love to see ALPA start its own airline. Wouldn't that be a sight to watch?  rotfl 

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 29):
However, I do think it is sad how low RJ and other younger pilots make. While I agree that a 777 captain should make more than a CRJ Captain, the disparity should be much lower. I understand there are more pax, but is the job really 10X harder? Does it take 10X the skill? I can also assure you that despite the industry wide lowering of pilot salary, they will still continue to attract and train quality pilots.

Agree. As a private pilot, its pretty apparent that flying is not rocket surgery. Its not hard. Granted, not everyone can do it, but I've never understood the payscales they've always had and what justifies it. Sure, its a huge responsibility and I agree that they should be compensated as such, but for a 747 captain somewhere making $350,000, more than a doctor that is responsible for saving lives, for example, I just never agreed with. I know a Comair CRJ captain who made it clear that planes are so advanced now that a trained monkey could fly.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 34):
At least AirTran would be there to help fill in the gaps, minus the international flying.

Really? Ok, tell me, where is DL going to get about 300 717's and 737's to fill in those gaps? Sorry, but Boeing's line isn't that quick and no, DL doesn't have that many. Sorry, but even though FL will be able to expand quickly, they won't have the planes to back up what they would like. I would expect an expansion of about 10-15%. Thats about all they could handle.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 35):
Some of you will not rest until we all make less than greyhound bus drivers, and a lot of us already do.

Ok, so whats the problem? Bring the rest down to that level? I know a Gulfstream captain who has no problem supporting a family with his paycheck, and 3M is well known for their low pay. Yea, he may not drive a Mercedes or live in Peachtree City or a gated fly-in community, but he's never had a problem supporting his family off it.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 35):
Either downsize and furlough some people or close the whole thing up. You have to pay the people who are working what they're worth, and they're worth what they negotiate.

There's your problem. DL pilots would not accept the contract in 2000 unless it came with a 'no-furlough' clause in it. However, after 9/11, the page that contains that clause was valued ab out as much as the finest outhouse wallpaper this side of the Mississippi and DL was allowed to furlough. But they can't just furlough pilots, so they have to keep paying them an amount that the company can't afford, because pilots at EVERY other airline has taken cuts that would bring their airline back to profitability. The pilots need to just come to reality. The lifestyle you once led that seemed so nice and lovely is no more. A good pilot evaluates all his options, and you knew that was always a possibility when you decided to become a pilot. The pilots who are only in this for the lifestyle will leave, the pilots who truly enjoy flying an airliner will stay. Burning down the house won't do anything.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 36):
Hmm, as much as I would cherish the the thought of DL closing shop, I'd hate to see what it would do to SLC's economy, all though other airlines combined make up almost the same amount of daily flights that SLC won't suffer TOO hard from service reductions.

Hmm, would you feel that way if your mother or sister was a DL employee? I think not. And if CO was in the same predicament(oh, wait a minute, they were. TWICE!!!), you wouldn't be wishing that. Such mentality is why the human gene pool is so worth some chlorine to be added.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-22 01:16:30 and read 6577 times.

[quote=Db373,reply=43]But why should the other employees have to live with the consequences as well? Striking and shutting down the airline not only affects the pilots, but it also has an effect on all the other employees who weren't making +$200,000.00 a year, and who didn't have the money to save what those pilots should have saved.

That is exactly my point, these employees are making that decision for every one at DL and if they decided to go for I hope they understand what
they did=consequences................

[quote=ATCT,reply=41](Besides, im leaving in 3 weeks for a better airline...)

Good for you and if every one would leave which does not want to work under
the new way DL will be (or so we hope), my guess would be DL will be around
a lot longer....

Cheers,
 Big grin

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-03-22 01:24:18 and read 6522 times.

After reading all this stuff on DL and how they will fold if the pilots go on strike, I cannot say I'd feel bad for them either... It would be a shame to see a major airline become nothing more than a memory, but after looking at what the pilots are saying, shame on them. Take the pay cuts to keep yourselves flying, or watch your very occupation disappear... You pilots may be making less than you have, but you'd be making a whole lot more than you would without the paycuts in the long run if you catch my drift...

How do they sleep at night...

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-22 01:33:33 and read 6468 times.

[quote=Steeler83,reply=48]How do they sleep at night...

That is a good question

Well I guess sooner or later Pilots will not be a factor to fly from A to B,

Imagine that: JFK-LHR with no Pilots in the cockpit..... dream? No it is the
future...........and issues like that will not occur any more.

Cheers,

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 01:41:28 and read 6426 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
Ok, so whats the problem? Bring the rest down to that level? I know a Gulfstream captain who has no problem supporting a family with his paycheck, and 3M is well known for their low pay. Yea, he may not drive a Mercedes or live in Peachtree City or a gated fly-in community, but he's never had a problem supporting his family off it.

I assume you're talking about a pilot flying 1900's for Gulfstream Airlines, not a Corporate captain for 3M corporation flying GV's. Ask this guy how much longer he plans on staying at Gulfstream next time you see him. No offense to your friend, but Gulfstream is a bit of a scumbag operation, as the first officers are recieve little to no compensation for their services as a required crewmember of an airliner. Take a look at the recent Pinnacle Airlines crash to see what kind of pilots Gulfstream Airlines will put in the cockpit. Look over that CVR transcript and tell me how comfortable would you feel riding with those guys. Yes, they both paid their way into the industry at Gulfstream.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
There's your problem. DL pilots would not accept the contract in 2000 unless it came with a 'no-furlough' clause in it. However, after 9/11, the page that contains that clause was valued ab out as much as the finest outhouse wallpaper this side of the Mississippi and DL was allowed to furlough. But they can't just furlough pilots, so they have to keep paying them an amount that the company can't afford, because pilots at EVERY other airline has taken cuts that would bring their airline back to profitability. The pilots need to just come to reality. The lifestyle you once led that seemed so nice and lovely is no more. A good pilot evaluates all his options, and you knew that was always a possibility when you decided to become a pilot. The pilots who are only in this for the lifestyle will leave, the pilots who truly enjoy flying an airliner will stay. Burning down the house won't do anything.

Enjoying this job will not pay the bills. I do enjoy it, but will do everything within my power to ensure that pay and benefits remain as high as possible for the overall profession, even if it means sacrifices at the level of my individual airline and my individual career. The lifestyle that I once led? Never had the chance to do that. I only have one vote in my branch of ALPA, but I'll never vote for a pay concession at the regional level, even at the risk of losing my job.

You see it won't do anything. Well, if it makes the managment of every other airline think twice before they ask for deeper and deeper paycuts, then that is something.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 01:45:51 and read 6392 times.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 49):
Imagine that: JFK-LHR with no Pilots in the cockpit..... dream? No it is the
future...........and issues like that will not occur any more

Maybe in the year 2200. I'd imagine we'll see a single pilot airliner at about the same time that we start seeing a single engine airliner. Even subway trains still have a guy up front who monitors things. By the time we get to the point where we don't need any pilots up front, we will just be able to say "beam me up, scotty" instead.

In the meantime, every transport category aircraft flying today requires two pilots for certification, and it will likely be that way for the rest of our lifetimes.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Kellmark
Posted 2006-03-22 01:46:52 and read 6392 times.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 22):

What ever happened to the Eastern employees? In particular, the older, more senior pilots, F/A's, etc.

I was one.(Not a pilot, I was in System Ops, a Director, but I worked my way up from the bottom) I worked there for 23 years before the strike and bankruptcy and shutdown. I loved every day that I went to work there. I remember that the people there never believed that it could happen to them. But it did. It took me 4 other jobs afterwards before I came up with what I do now, teaching as a college professor which I like very much and it has decent pay and conditions. But it is only now, after 15 years, that I can say that I am back to a level where I was back at Eastern. And I will have to work many more years than I would have in order to obtain a decent retirement situation.

Most of the people I know from Eastern seemed to wind up in one of two groups. Those who were able to move geographically and be flexible and start again with another airline at the bottom or another industry in some cases. It took them many years to recover, like myself and many of them work at other airlines that now have similar problems to what EA went through.

Or there were many in another group who wound up underemployed in jobs they didn't particulary like that paid far less at a much lower standard of living and a small residual retirement paid out of the PBGC. They never recovered and never will. And that includes some of the pilots as well. Also, remember the older you get as a pilot, the closer your are to a forced retirement and also the greater risk of a medical problem. This makes it difficult to start over at the bottom beyond a certain age. Most of these people will tell you that the peak of their professional career was at Eastern, and they have never been happy again. And they would work for far less to bring it back if they could.

Those pilots at DL who think that the present situation at DL is as bad as they can possibly deal with and that it could not possibly be as bad to go on strike, have obviously never had to be hungry or desperate for a job. If they had, they would come to their senses and try to make things work. Remember, this is the same group that was the highest paid in the industry for some 4 years or so. But all they seem to think about is the pay cuts they already took. Yet they were at such a high level for so long. And there are many people who would be happy to make what they are making right now.

Also, it is easy to say that the management sucks and it is all of their fault. They certainly have their faults, but even David Neeleman is not making money right now at Jetblue. And Southwest faces their own challenges this year with their fuel hedges fading.

All the airlines face a crisis know, not just DL. But if the pilots want to help the competition and throw away their own and their fellow workers' jobs, then they will do it. But a year later they will be very sorry they did, and look back with nostalgia for the jobs that they threw away. Although they will still say that of course, it was management's fault. It had nothing to do with their own short sighted actions. If they were to look at other examples they would see that other carriers have been through very tough times and survived. Continental is one good example. They were a disaster, a pariah in the industry. They are far from those days now, even though they have their own challenges. But it shows that the right combination of circumstances can change the course of a company fundamentally. Good management, yes, but also employees who are williing to do what it takes to make it work. That is what DL needs right now, in spades.

If they are not willing to do that then the history of what happened at EA will repeat itself. The next few weeks will be interesting.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-22 01:56:26 and read 6327 times.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 41):
Besides, im leaving in 3 weeks for a better airline

LOL!

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 39):
AC7E7, welcome to my RU list!

Thank you kindly  Smile

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 50):
You see it won't do anything. Well, if it makes the managment of every other airline think twice before they ask for deeper and deeper paycuts, then that is something.

You live in a dream world my friend. You think this will tell management something? I'll tell you what management is seeing - a fistfull of low-cost profitable competitors at their doorsteps, eating away at their customer base. They understand what is needed to compete in today's marketplace. It is the unions and employee groups that are living in the past.

Your belief that your voice of discontent will somehow send a message to the industry will not happen. The industry is moving towards a low cost model. That means pay cuts all around. Either suck it up, or start looking for another job.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-22 02:00:16 and read 6295 times.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 33):
uoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Yawn I was, and I seen this sort of statement for fifty years. DL may well go under, but it will because of management stupidity and this is typical of such management.

Wow...so you're casually ok with sacrificing tens of thousands of jobs of other employees so the pilots can remain higher paid than profitable airlines' pilots.

No, not in the least. Management screwed them, not me. IF they are too stupid to see the handwriting on the wall, so be it. Time to move on, and if you can't see that, too bad.

Once upon a time we had dinosaurs to eat such stupid people. Unfortunately, the dinosaurs formed a union and went extinct. Anyone still working at DL should follow. Sorry, but that is the real world.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-22 02:16:58 and read 6212 times.

Kellmark,
Thank you very much for giving us a insight of what happened to you and some other EA employees after EA seized operations..

I myself worked for many years with an ex EA CSA employee in Canada and at
first I could not believe in what kind of conditions she was working at the
end and she worked up to the last second of EA's existences and she also
enjoyed every minute and it took her almost 10 years to get back financially
where she was with EA and now she is over 60 years old and she has no
retirement in sight...............

Thanks again Kellmark  bigthumbsup 

Cheers,

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-22 02:33:07 and read 6119 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 51):
Even subway trains still have a guy up front who monitors things

JFK's airtrain is completely automated

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 52):
Most of the people I know from Eastern seemed to wind up in one of two groups. Those who were able to move geographically and be flexible and start again with another airline at the bottom or another industry in some cases. It took them many years to recover, like myself and many of them work at other airlines that now have similar problems to what EA went through.

excellent post and enjoyed reading what you had to say. An unbiased opinion of what DL employees face should the pilots strike.

[Edited 2006-03-22 02:44:26]

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 02:36:14 and read 6106 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 53):
You live in a dream world my friend. You think this will tell management something? I'll tell you what management is seeing - a fistfull of low-cost profitable competitors at their doorsteps, eating away at their customer base. They understand what is needed to compete in today's marketplace. It is the unions and employee groups that are living in the past.

Your belief that your voice of discontent will somehow send a message to the industry will not happen. The industry is moving towards a low cost model. That means pay cuts all around. Either suck it up, or start looking for another job.

Okay mr. Ac7E7. Let's look at what the "LOW COST COMPETITORS" are doing. They certainly aren't making their money by paying the employees nothing. Most make about as much as Delta, and in the case of southwest, significantly more. Low Cost does not necessarily mean lower pay. Managements at the legacy carriers apparntly don't understand at all what is needed to compete in today's marketplace. How about treating the employees you do have with a shred of respect and paying them what you agreed to so that you don't see your productivity go to zilch. How about giving the employees incentives to perform instead of nixing their stock options and slashing their pay? That sounds like a better strategy to me. Your contempt for the people that get you safely from point A to point B is staggering. Good Day.

If Delta pilots shut the airline down, I doubt they will regret it later, and I certainly wouldn't blame them a bit.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-22 02:47:21 and read 6060 times.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 41):
As a Delta Employee....

Which your not.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 41):
We are no longer the "Employee Owned Airline" of yesteryear when we bought a 767-200 for OUR company.

Which your not.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 41):
(Besides, im leaving in 3 weeks for a better airline...)

Thats good, since you don't work for Delta. To be a ramper in PIT, you work for a contract company, even if the contract is Delta Global Services, it is still NOT Delta, but a contract company.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 45):
A airline pilot once told Mr. Serling, "I dont care how many people are on my plane. The only person I want to get down safe and in one piece....is me."

Thank you! I've said that all along, that how much money you make does and how much training you have does not matter, as long as its enough to get you home alive.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 50):
I assume you're talking about a pilot flying 1900's for Gulfstream Airlines, not a Corporate captain for 3M corporation flying GV's. Ask this guy how much longer he plans on staying at Gulfstream next time you see him. No offense to your friend, but Gulfstream is a bit of a scumbag operation, as the first officers are recieve little to no compensation for their services as a required crewmember of an airliner.

3M is the IATA code for Gulfstream. And no, he is a 10 year captain on the Brasilia now. But he has spent his time up front of the 1900 as well.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 50):
I do enjoy it, but will do everything within my power to ensure that pay and benefits remain as high as possible for the overall profession, even if it means sacrifices at the level of my individual airline and my individual career.

Why must it remain "as high as possible." I mean, everyone likes better pay. But if your pay is too high for the company to remain competitive(what you said and DALPA's stance of "full pay til the last day"), then its not going to do you much good, because you won't have the job or the pay for much longer. That is the reason why CO pilots are paid less than some others, but are a lot better off, because the company is doing better. But if your going to have that kind of mentality that you mentioned, you would fit well with the Delta pilots. Would you like a job?

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 50):
You see it won't do anything. Well, if it makes the managment of every other airline think twice before they ask for deeper and deeper paycuts, then that is something.

First of all, it doesn't do anything. Secondly, do you think management is paying that much attention to your action? Trust me, after their morning brunch, they may think of what you are trying to prove while standing at the urinal, but not much more after that. There are other people who do the negotiating for the execs. And despite what happens, management is not losing sleep over it, and if whatever happens is negative will not affect them at all in the long run. So yes, it doesn't do anything, other than give you an faux ego-boost.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-22 02:49:04 and read 6039 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 57):
If Delta pilots shut the airline down, I doubt they will regret it later, and I certainly wouldn't blame them a bit.

Dont you think this is a bit selfish of the pilots? what about everyone else they will be putting out of work? If they don't like working for Delta, then they should leave, resign, quit, and find another job like I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands of DL pilots already have.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Db373
Posted 2006-03-22 02:55:00 and read 6001 times.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 47):
That is exactly my point, these employees are making that decision for every one at DL and if they decided to go for I hope they understand what
they did=consequences................

I apologize. I misread your post.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 57):
They certainly aren't making their money by paying the employees nothing. Most make about as much as Delta, and in the case of southwest, significantly more. Low Cost does not necessarily mean lower pay.

WN and DL don't compete with each other that much. Go look at the payscales of DL's two largest LCC competitors, B6 and Airtran, and then come back and and say those pilots are making the same amount of money as DL pilots.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: N766UA
Posted 2006-03-22 02:58:06 and read 5982 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 58):
even if the contract is Delta Global Services, it is still NOT Delta, but a contract company.

More like an excuse to pay less for the same product.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Db373
Posted 2006-03-22 03:01:56 and read 5958 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 58):
First of all, it doesn't do anything. Secondly, do you think management is paying that much attention to your action? Trust me, after their morning brunch, they may think of what you are trying to prove while standing at the urinal, but not much more after that. There are other people who do the negotiating for the execs. And despite what happens, management is not losing sleep over it, and if whatever happens is negative will not affect them at all in the long run. So yes, it doesn't do anything, other than give you an faux ego-boost.

From my limited experience, it seems to me that managment would be better off after a liquidation than pilots anyway. It's both possible and likely for the CEO and other execs of a liquidated airline to get a job at another company and make the same amount of money, if not more than they were making before. But for a pilot, this is impossible as they would have to start again at the bottom of the pay scale. I really think the pilots who are threatening the strike are more worried about the outcome than managment is.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 03:14:20 and read 5896 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 58):
Thank you! I've said that all along, that how much money you make does and how much training you have does not matter, as long as its enough to get you home alive.

Apparantly, as the gulfstream airlines trained crew of Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701 has proven, it's not always enough to do that.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 58):
3M is the IATA code for Gulfstream. And no, he is a 10 year captain on the Brasilia now. But he has spent his time up front of the 1900 as well.

I'm aware of the code Otto. 10 year captain or not, ask him if he plans on spending the rest of his career at Gulfstream. In case you are not aware, 3M corporation also operates a fleet of Gulfstream aircraft, thus my need for clarification, thank you.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-22 03:19:26 and read 5861 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 57):
How about treating the employees you do have with a shred of respect and paying them what you agreed to so that you don't see your productivity go to zilch.

Guess what KAUSpilot? Markets in any industry are constantly reflexing themselves to find equilibrium. Things that were true 5 minutes ago, may no longer be true. We live in a fluid world. Tell me this. What is your plan to save Delta. No pilot pay cuts? How would you walk the airline out of bankruptcy. Because not just pilots are going to be out of a job, so are managers. I'm sure it won't look so good on those managers resume when they attempt to find new jobs. Sure some will luck out from old good old boy networks, but many more won't. You should be at war with your competition, not your own company.

micstatic

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-22 03:20:36 and read 5861 times.

this pay rate is from May 22, 2000. Anyone have recent pay data?


Airline pilot hourly pay CAL DAL NW UAL USA

wide body 12 year capt $202 $265 $241 $222 $244
wide body 5 year 1st officer 115 160 143 136 144
large narrow body 12 yr capt 172 198 188 182 185
large narrow body 5 yr FO 96 118 110 110 111
small narrow body 12 yr capt 152 201 181 175 161
small narrow body 2 yr FO 68 70 60 72 73

large body aircraft include B777, B767, B747, A330

large narrow body aircraft would include B757, MD80

small narrow body aircraft would include B737, A319 and DC9

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 03:32:10 and read 5793 times.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...s/airlines/airlines-2005030344.htm

Has links to the current pay rates of most north american operators.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 64):



Quoting Micstatic (Reply 64):
What is your plan to save Delta.

Get rid of stupid marketing campaigns like "good goes around". Stop wasting money on misguided "Low Cost" divisions like Song with essentially the same cost structure as mainline (it looks like they're taking this advice). Find something to do with the rows of 767's and MD80's I see parked at ATL everytime I'm there. Sell them, scrap them, or fly them. Give up in markets where you aren't profitable. Downsize and shrink if you have to. Charge enough for tickets to recoup the cost of the service you are providing.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-22 03:46:23 and read 5702 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 66):

Get rid of stupid marketing campaigns like "good goes around".

Whether you agree with the slogan or not, it's a marketing campaign. I admit, that is an extremely lame punch line. Do you think all advertising is a waste of money?

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 66):
Stop wasting money on misguided "Low Cost" divisions like Song with essentially the same cost structure as mainline (it looks like they're taking this advice)

I agree that Song had a similar cost structure. One could argue that labor oposition prevented Song from becomming a great airline. Under independent ownership, I would have been interested to see the results.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 66):
Find something to do with the rows of 767's and MD80's I see parked at ATL everytime I'm there. Sell them, scrap them, or fly them. Give up in markets where you aren't profitable. Downsize and shrink if you have to. Charge enough for tickets to recoup the cost of the service you are providing.

Are you telling me any other major hub in America doesn't look the same way with lines of planes? If Delta charged the fare they needed to break even, AirTran and others would eat up all their business, because they can afford to profitably fly routes at a lower fare.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-22 03:58:39 and read 5621 times.

how the f*** can southwest afford to pay their 12 year 737 capt $190 an hour? that is by far tops in the industry. DL 12 yr 737NG capt rings in at $149 an hr.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2006-03-22 04:01:03 and read 5596 times.

It's easy, Jumbo...WN makes $$$ and has some to spread around and DL doesn't.
safe  boggled 

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-22 04:15:00 and read 5526 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 63):
Apparantly, as the gulfstream airlines trained crew of Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701 has proven, it's not always enough to do that.

No, that shows a couple of pilots who weren't paying attention to their job. But trying to say that just because there were two pilots that were trained by 3M means they are all that way is trying to paint with a pretty broad brush, isn't there? Last I looked, Gulfstream doesn't have too many planes dropping out of the sky, and they train their own. Hmm.....?

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 63):
In case you are not aware, 3M corporation also operates a fleet of Gulfstream aircraft, thus my need for clarification, thank you.

If he was a GV pilot for 3M Corp, do you think I would have made that statement about where he lives or what he drives? Trust me, if he is flying a GV for 3M, he isn't hurting for cash. These days, corporate flying is the best there is.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 66):
Stop wasting money on misguided "Low Cost" divisions like Song with essentially the same cost structure as mainline (it looks like they're taking this advice).

Since you want to beat a dead horse, Song's costs were much lower than DL's. Every Song member(sans pilots), were paid significantly lower than mainiline. But you say Song has the same cost structure? You proof? Yea, you have none. Yet DL is expanding Song's cost structure and service system-wide. Must be a bad idea, huh?  sarcastic 

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 66):
Charge enough for tickets to recoup the cost of the service you are providing.

What good is that gonna do if you have competitors charging less than you, thereby getting your customers? I'm not sure what airline you may or may not work for, but do yourself a favor and go sit with the guys in Revenue Management sometime.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 04:35:32 and read 5424 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 70):
No, that shows a couple of pilots who weren't paying attention to their job. But trying to say that just because there were two pilots that were trained by 3M means they are all that way is trying to paint with a pretty broad brush, isn't there? Last I looked, Gulfstream doesn't have too many planes dropping out of the sky, and they train their own. Hmm.....?

Nope, it just seems like a pretty big coincidence that both of those guys were brought up through Gulfstream, and had neither one of them had the professional integrity to call into question what was going on in that airplane. Does everyone at Gulfstream behave like this? I don't know, but I certainly hope not. One has to wonder why the Gulfstream FO's need to pay tens of thousands for their first airline job while everyone else works in smaller craft and earns the interview the traditional way. I guess you really do get what you pay for sometimes....

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 70):
If he was a GV pilot for 3M Corp, do you think I would have made that statement about where he lives or what he drives? Trust me, if he is flying a GV for 3M, he isn't hurting for cash. These days, corporate flying is the best there is.

Once again, thanks for the info, but I'm familiar with 3M's ops having serviced their aircraft during my brief stint as a line service tech.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 70):
Since you want to beat a dead horse, Song's costs were much lower than DL's. Every Song member(sans pilots), were paid significantly lower than mainiline. But you say Song has the same cost structure? You proof? Yea, you have none. Yet DL is expanding Song's cost structure and service system-wide. Must be a bad idea, huh?

Was it really necessary to start a whole new airline to figure out that you can save money by paying people less? Seems like a lot of wasted marketing, signage, and aircraft paint. If it worked so well, then why isn't song sticking around? It was a stupid, unsuccessful gimmick. How can you have a lower cost structure than Delta when you are, essentially, still Delta?

Quote:
What good is that gonna do if you have competitors charging less than you, thereby getting your customers? I'm not sure what airline you may or may not work for, but do yourself a favor and go sit with the guys in Revenue Management sometime.

Well, if you can't find ways to compete, then it's time to fold up. Sorry, but that's the nature of free market economics, and labor is a cost that can't be ground into oblilvion. Figure out a way to pay your people and at least break even or you're eventually toast. And Revenue Management? Give me a break. I'll tell you what Delta needs to do with their revenue management people: Fire them all.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 04:45:12 and read 5365 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 67):
Whether you agree with the slogan or not, it's a marketing campaign. I admit, that is an extremely lame punch line. Do you think all advertising is a waste of money?

Nope not all of it, but I can't say that it really helps to much in the era of priceline and expedia where most potential fliers simply click on the lowest fare. Most people already know about their airline options. If you are going to advertise, at least market a tangible product, promote some new destinations, a low-fare promo, or something along those lines that people might pay attention to.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 67):
Are you telling me any other major hub in America doesn't look the same way with lines of planes? If Delta charged the fare they needed to break even, AirTran and others would eat up all their business, because they can afford to profitably fly routes at a lower fare.

Nope....every time I go through ATL in the middle of the day on a typically-full schedule day like friday or monday, I see at least a dozen widebodies and several dozen narrows sitting on the mx ramp. I never see this many planes sitting around MSP, IAH, PHL, CLT, DFW, etc. Perhaps there's a good reason for this, but hey, someone asked, so I answered.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: LTBEWR
Posted 2006-03-22 05:08:29 and read 5289 times.

I agree with what DL's CEO says. I too would be very concerned if Delta were to ever have a strike of it's pilots, especially if it were to last more than 72 hours. Much like other airline failures over the last 25 years, a significant strike along with their already financially weak situation would scare off many customers of DL and probably kill them too.
It's too bad that in a failure, the upper level executives whom really made the bad decisions would also have to suffer like the line employees.
I would also be concerned if DL were to go out of business for other reasons too. Many thousands would be stranded in the USA and the world for perhaps days waiting for alternative airlines flights home. It would hurt the USA's economy (especially in Atlanta). A DL failure would be a loss of a high level employer. Because of the sudden removal of many seats for who knows how long would mean major increases in all fares, it would discouraging air travel, hurting tourism and business travel and thus travel related industries for a while until other airlines could increase their capacity.
I would also suspect that the US government may step in here to prevent a strike due to the major affects a collapse of DL would mean.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-22 05:22:19 and read 5228 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 57):
How about treating the employees you do have with a shred of respect and paying them what you agreed to so that you don't see your productivity go to zilch

They may have agreed to pay the pilots an amount, however the airline is going through chap 11, which is different. Creditors want to see some major cuts, and because salaries and wages are the largest expense for airlines after fuel, employees will take a hit. If everyone doesn't take a significant cut in pay, nobody will take home anything.

But again, who cares, let the house burn for all I care. You don't seem to care.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 57):
Your contempt for the people that get you safely from point A to point B is staggering.

I don't have contempt for the position, just the backward, left-wing organizations called unions that mislead their members into taking action that will not only negatively affect their member's jobs, but threaten everyone else's as well.

The only reason the unions and employee groups are telling their members not to accept a cut in pay is because they want the maximum $$$ worth of dues to go to them. Once members realize that their unions are a business too, maybe you'll come to your sense and accept the new offer or start looking for a new job.

As long as employees have this kind of attitude, I don't feel very confident about the future of DL. The same attitude exists with some employees at Air Canada. However they tend to be the older employees that grew up believing they have a RIGHT to everything for nothing. They are slowly being weeded out through packages and retirement to make room for new employees who make a significantly lower wage, and will grow with the company understanding the market they are competing in. But there is no sense teaching an old dog new tricks...

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 57):
Low Cost does not necessarily mean lower pay

Agreed, however they are much more efficient operations. Your attitude reaks of inefficiency. Good day.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-22 05:25:01 and read 5212 times.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 73):
I too would be very concerned if Delta were to ever have a strike of it's pilots, especially if it were to last more than 72 hours

Under their agreement with GE, any strike over 48 hrs will mean the end of their financing (according to someone in this post). In fact, any strike, even if only for 24 hrs will likely drive DL into Chap 7 in my opinion.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-03-22 05:26:55 and read 5212 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 72):
I see at least a dozen widebodies and several dozen narrows sitting on the mx ramp.

Wow... That sure is a lot of equipment  eyepopping  If PHL doesn't have anywhere near the amount of aircraft as ATL does on its mx ramp, then PIT, CLE, CVG, and IND must look like  zzz 

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-22 06:12:26 and read 5063 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 74):
Agreed, however they are much more efficient operations. Your attitude reaks of inefficiency. Good day.

Well, to me this argument has very little to do with unions. I believe that an employee should stand up for themselves and demand the maximum pay and benefits the company can afford to pay them. If you ask for a raise, you'd better have a good argument for why you deserve it. By the same token, when the company demands a cut, the company should have a good reason why they feel you are no longer worth the rates they originally negotiated.

That's what isn't happening here. There's no reason (performance-wise) why the pilots or any other group at delta deserve a paycut. Are they calling in sick too much? Are they arriving late too often? Are they buring too much fuel? No. The only reason the company can give is "we're in bankruptcy and we need it to stay competitive." My stance is that this is not the employees' fault and they should not have to subisidize that if they don't want to. If they want to do it fine, but they should be under no obligation.

A good union simply gives its member better bargaining power. I think it's great when a company pays its employees well without a union on property. That works out better for everyone: the employees can skip the union dues and the company gets a little more leeway. Unfortunately, most companies would use an all-volunteer work force if they could. They certainly aren't going to pay anyone any more than they can get away with.

[Edited 2006-03-22 06:13:09]

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-22 06:31:29 and read 4993 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 77):
By the same token, when the company demands a cut, the company should have a good reason why they feel you are no longer worth the rates they originally negotiated

They do have a good reason... if you don't take the pay cuts, you're out of work. That is a pretty good barginning chip.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 77):
If they want to do it fine, but they should be under no obligation.

They aren't....they can always go find work elsewhere.

The creditors are also not obligated to approve an exit from chap 11 if they believe the airline will not survive. Salaries and benefits are a HUGE expense. They have to be cut to stay competitive.

The laws of supply and demand will prevail in the event of a DL liquidation. Thousands of pilots flooding the market looking for work will give the airlines actually hiring pilots the flexibility to hire workers at the lowest possible salaries, even lower then what DL is offering the pilots.

I understand your resentment and beliefs that employees should not have to take a pay cut, but the reality is the world is not a fair place. Everybody will take a loss in this process - creditors, passengers, suppliers, and yes, employees. Pilots tend to take bigger hits because of the amount of money they make.

I'm telling you right now, the pilots had better understand the consequences, because creditors could easily cut their losses and let the airline fall into chap 7. Delta is not essential to the industry. We all believed that Pan Am would never sink, and it did. Same with Eastern. Time to wake up!

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AvConsultant
Posted 2006-03-22 07:50:10 and read 4834 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
They are going call in a loan and cause the the collapse of the airline and then loose their money. Gimme a break. They will do anything they can go keep that loan going.

GECAS has deposits on most of the DL Boeing fleet.

9W wants the entire 737-800 fleet. They're the most serious with the highest deposit for first rights of refusal.

FX is interested in a portion of the 757 fleet for 727 replacement.

5X is interested in a portion of the 767 and 757 fleet.

There is demand for the DL fleet. These aircraft are sequential order from assembly with commonality throughout the fleet. Very attractive to serious inquirer's.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 27):
This whole DL thing is Eastern all over again.....could ATL be cursed? Is Airtran next?

Hey don't forget the TWA mini-hub in the early 90's.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: B777-700
Posted 2006-03-22 07:51:08 and read 4827 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 14):
Nobody is going to starve.



Quoting Poitin (Reply 14):
IF DL can't hack the current market, let them go under. Nobody is going to starve.



Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 19):
or more would probable be the final nail in DL's
coven.....

*grabs the hammer*



Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 19):
Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 9):
If the pilots go on strike, I won't feel bad if DL goes under.

Same here.



Quoting SeaTran (Reply 20):
We want airline management industry-wide to know that if mangement pushes things too far, the pilots have the power to, and will, burn the house down.



Quoting Poitin (Reply 31):
which I control and I don't have to worry about my retirement being cancelled.



Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 36):
Hmm, as much as I would cherish the the thought of DL closing shop,

You guys are seriously mest up in the head, and need help, fast. Next time something awful happens in your life, don't ask why. It's because you think they way you do.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 34):
At least AirTran would be there to help fill in the gaps, minus the international flying.

No, not even close.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 41):
As a Delta Employee....

POWER TO THE PILOTS!

What the airline wants of them is not right. I support them 100% and will gladly move to another airline. We are no longer the "Employee Owned Airline" of yesteryear when we bought a 767-200 for OUR company.

Give management hell ALPA, I'll support em no matter what.


-ATCT

(Besides, im leaving in 3 weeks for a better airline...)

Oh yea, you're the ramper who posed as a pilot on here in another post. Why should anyone even believe you're an employee? I have never met one non-pilot employee who supports the union. And if you really are, you should take a number behind those clowns mentioned above.

Credibility, meet window.

[Edited 2006-03-22 08:00:48]

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2006-03-22 08:42:01 and read 4732 times.

one thing i'd like to know, is management leading by example?

I've read alot on these threads about pilots and other employees taking cut after cut, but, has management come out and said "for every cut you take, we will match it 100 percent." in other words, if the pilots have to take a 14 percent pay cut, management cuts it's own pay 14 percent. if the pilots have to take another 14 percent pay cut on top of the first 14 percent, management cuts it's own pay by another 14 percent.

i tend to think not, because i think if management came to the table with that kind of attitude, the pilots would not be talking about going on strike. i think what the pilots are seeing is that management wants to cut their pay, but not IT'S OWN pay.

as much of a nightmare is it would be for someone in my business (after hours travel) for Delta to go under, if management is not willing to "feel the pain" and make their own sacrifices, i fully support DLs pilots going on strike.

if management is willing to "feel the pain" then the pilots need to play ball and accept the cuts as being necessary for the surivval of the company, but so far, from what i read on these threads, it doesn't sound like management is willing to do that, in which case, go pilots.

If Delta does go down, i hope that management walks away with nothing. and if the creditors committee were smart, not only would management walk away with nothing at the end of the day, they'd demand management give back whatever bonuses they're awarded themselves, retroactive to Delta's last profitable quarter.

if DL is going to survive, and i hope it does, management needs to lead by example, and that includes pay and benefit cuts for themselves.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: IcemanT37
Posted 2006-03-22 08:45:08 and read 4719 times.

Would all airlines be making money now were it not for the high cost of fuel, or are there other issues which play a bigger role over the long term? As a layperson it seems to me that all the majors are simply trying to boost load factors to minimize the bleeding, since their fares aren't high enough to cover costs in the first place. In other words, they'll sell at a loss to prevent the other guy (who's also selling at a loss) from taking their market share. Am I oversimplifying?

So if no one is really profitable, then how does the market continue to function at all? I'm not a fan of big government, but shouldn't government play SOME role in stabilizing the airline industry until the situation improves? I'll throw it out there for comment: Re-regulation. Not that I favor it. Just help me understand why it wouldn't work.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-03-22 09:11:19 and read 4669 times.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 68):
how the f*** can southwest afford to pay their 12 year 737 capt $190 an hour? that is by far tops in the industry. DL 12 yr 737NG capt rings in at $149 an hr.

Higher productivity, WN pilots fly more hours per month = less pilots needed to fly full ops. Benefits, Health Care, 401k, and the like get spread over more hours, therefore the total cost per hour, benefits included, is not that much greater than DL.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Quoting Kanebear (Reply 5):
Quoting Panamair (Reply 3):
One of the conditions of the GE and/or AMEX DIP financing arranged last year is that the loan can be called in if there is anything more than a 48 hour strike.

Sounds like a lot more than a yawn to me.

yawn They are going call in a loan and cause the the collapse of the airline and then loose their money. Gimme a break. They will do anything they can go keep that loan going.

GE/AMEX are in the best position possible in regards to DL's creditors. They provided the DIP (Debtor In Poession) Financing when DL first entered BK. In the US the DIP financing becomes first in line to be paid above all other claims. If the situation at DL does get to crazy it is a very real possibility that GE/AMEX might pull the financing, that would be the end of DL.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 77):
The only reason the company can give is "we're in bankruptcy and we need it to stay competitive." My stance is that this is not the employees' fault and they should not have to subisidize that if they don't want to. If they want to do it fine, but they should be under no obligation.

You are correct, the employees are under no obligation to take a pay cut. On the flip slide management and creditors/investors are under no obligation to keep DL going as a continuing operation.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 80):

You guys are seriously mest up in the head, and need help, fast. Next time something awful happens in your life, don't ask why. It's because you think they way you do.

Chill out, companies close up shop and lay-off employees all the time. No different than when a company starts-up and hires employees. Daily occurances here in the US. The pro and anti DL crowd is no different than rooting for a sports team or having a favorite airline, and a least favorite. People take these things way to seriously.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-03-22 09:14:14 and read 4660 times.

Quoting IcemanT37 (Reply 82):
Re-regulation. Not that I favor it. Just help me understand why it wouldn't work.

Look at how small the aviation market was prior to de-reg vs. present day.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-22 11:30:12 and read 4478 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
Hmm, would you feel that way if your mother or sister was a DL employee? I think not.

My cousin is a DL employee and she feels the same way. But then again, she was also at Eastern and NW.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: NA
Posted 2006-03-22 12:04:36 and read 4375 times.

Quoting OyKIE (Thread starter):
Grinstein warned that Delta "will not survive a 24-hour pilot strike."



Quoting Kanebear (Reply 5):
Quoting NA (Reply 4):The most common and generic comment a CEO can make to threaten his employees is to say "We won´t survive a strike". Yawn.

Apparently you weren't reading.

 Yeah sure

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-22 16:37:12 and read 4205 times.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 80):
You guys are seriously mest up in the head, and need help, fast. Next time something awful happens in your life, don't ask why. It's because you think they way you do.

Why should I feel bad for a group of employees who are willing to "burn their house down" if they believe it will prove a point?

If your house burnt down and it was an accident, I would feel bad for you. If you set the fire with the goal of your house burning down, why the hell should I feel bad for you?

Same thing here. If the pilots are willing to push DL into liquidation, just because they believe it will send a message to the industry, I won't feel bad.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-22 16:54:49 and read 4187 times.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 83):

GE/AMEX are in the best position possible in regards to DL's creditors. They provided the DIP (Debtor In Poession) Financing when DL first entered BK. In the US the DIP financing becomes first in line to be paid above all other claims. If the situation at DL does get to crazy it is a very real possibility that GE/AMEX might pull the financing, that would be the end of DL.

While they may be first in line, the question is how much can they get? I would have to see DL's detailed balance sheet, but I know of very few creditors who will force liquidation as they usually come up with pennies on the dollar. However, you could be correct, and if GE/AMEX does force liquidation, it will because they really and truly believe it is in their best interests -- that is DL is as dead as the dodo.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-22 17:00:52 and read 4176 times.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 81):
If Delta does go down, i hope that management walks away with nothing. and if the creditors committee were smart, not only would management walk away with nothing at the end of the day, they'd demand management give back whatever bonuses they're awarded themselves, retroactive to Delta's last profitable quarter.

if DL is going to survive, and i hope it does, management needs to lead by example, and that includes pay and benefit cuts for themselves.

 bigthumbsup  I think you have stated my position better than I have. DL has a management problem, they lack LEADERSHIP.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-03-22 19:45:26 and read 4107 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 88):
While they may be first in line, the question is how much can they get? I would have to see DL's detailed balance sheet, but I know of very few creditors who will force liquidation as they usually come up with pennies on the dollar.

Unknown. The assets would have to be sold on the open market, my guess is GE/AMEX would get 100 %, the line is not huge, the slots/gates at LGA, DCA, ORD plus sale of international routes/gates/equipment should be more than enough to bail GE/AMEX out in the event of a Ch. 7. The balance sheet will have the above items at cost, not Fair Market Value. FMV should be much higher on the above items than cost. Airplanes on the other hand, their Book Value may be way off base compared to their FMV. Of DL's newer fleet that is owned, the 777's would get a good price, the 738's, and the newer 752's. The 764's are an interesting question as it is a great plane from a CASM point of view, but CO is the only other carrier that flies the type, limited market for resale. I don't think the Mad Dogs, classic 737's, RJ's, and non ER 763 fleet are all that valuable. The 763ER should have a decent valuation.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jetpixx
Posted 2006-03-22 20:41:56 and read 4072 times.

I have 52K SkyMiles and a Silver Medallion and I am about to wave good-bye to them. This DL thing worries me enough to where I feel more comfortable booking on NW and certainly CO right now. I flew 36 times on DL last year - and in 2006 - 0. I am sure there are plenty of people out there like me that are waiting and seeing - and in the meantime, hurting DL even more. They need to get things together...

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-22 20:50:16 and read 4066 times.

Quoting Jetpixx (Reply 91):
I have 52K SkyMiles and a Silver Medallion and I am about to wave good-bye to them

Perhaps it is time to book that vacation now.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-22 20:54:41 and read 4058 times.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 90):
Unknown. The assets would have to be sold on the open market, my guess is GE/AMEX would get 100 %, the line is not huge, the slots/gates at LGA, DCA, ORD plus sale of international routes/gates/equipment should be more than enough to bail GE/AMEX out in the event of a Ch. 7.

Yes, I agree book value and balance sheet value and FMV are different, and you are quite right in your assessments regarding FMV

How much did DL get from GE/AMEX? That is the real question before counting up the booty of chapter 7. Yeah, I know what you will say next, and that is GE/AMEX made sure they were covered, which I assume to be the case. My question is what does DL have to pay them in return?

If what you say is correct, GE/AMEX could just be waiting with drooling jaws for the pilots to strike. In which case, instant Chapter 7. It would be interesting to read the actual contract between GE/AMEX and DL. I capitulate to your assessment. DL could be an instant Chapter 7 if there is a strike.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-03-22 21:25:16 and read 4037 times.

Check this out, from 03/14/06

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/stoc...cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

Looks like GE is on the line for $ 1.6 Billion, AMEX for $ 300 million.

DL is trying to get GE to lower the interest rate, go figure, I really don't see why GE would be willing to accomodate them at this point, maybe if they had labor cut agreements in place, BUT not with the threat of a strike by pilots (the least replacable group) would I think GE lowers DL's juice. That would be taking money out of GE's pocket for the possible benefit of other creditors. On the other side of the company (GE) is possible aircraft leases that would be gone if DL goes Ch. 7. The question would be than, are these leases for lots of RJ's (bad for GE, good for DL) or are they 738's, 752's or other planes that are easy to re-lease/sell. If GE is on the hook for a ton of RJ's, GE might re-negotiate with DL, if GE is not too hampered by aircraft leases they might tell DL to go suck a lemon.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: B777-700
Posted 2006-03-22 21:56:35 and read 4014 times.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 83):
Chill out, companies close up shop and lay-off employees all the time.

I'm well aware of that. What I have a problem with are the sick turds on here that actually enjoy that hardship, and make such flippant comments, making light of peoples misfortune.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 83):
The pro and anti DL crowd is no different than rooting for a sports team or having a favorite airline, and a least favorite.

Yes, and that's exactly the problem. When a team loses the Super Bowl, no one has to struggle to keep their family afloat, no one files for unemployment. No one loses their money. It's a GAME. This is NOT. There are real life consequenses with many innocent people caught in the middle.

If you're one of those cheerleaders that "roots" for airlines like this is a sport, you are a child.

There's plenty of companies I am not fond of, but I would never CHEER for anyone's ill will. I'm sorry, I've been burdened with this thing called a conscience, which it seems like a group of people on here lack. Maybe it's because they can sit behind a computer and say these things with impunity. I DARE any one to come to Atlanta and get dropped off on Virginia Avenue and start popping of at the mouth with those comments above and see how quickly they get their butts thrashed.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 87):
Why should I feel bad for a group of employees who are willing to "burn their house down" if they believe it will prove a point?

I'm no fan of the union either, and I've enjoyed reading your posts, my comments were not directed towards you. The target was those members on here that make jokes about Delta, or any airline, going out of business.

Instead of wishing for an airlines demise, you should be praying for it's recovery. If you don't like it, just don't support it. But cheering for it's demise when that will devastate thousands of peoples lives for the short, or long term is just disgusting.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: DAYflyer
Posted 2006-03-22 22:23:22 and read 4001 times.

DL may lack leadership, but a strike that would deliberately kill the airline is the dumbest move the pilots could make.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-03-22 22:40:09 and read 3972 times.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 95):

I'm well aware of that. What I have a problem with are the sick turds on here that actually enjoy that hardship, and make such flippant comments, making light of peoples misfortune.

What offends you may not be offensive to others. There are two sides to every coin, what is one person's hard-ship is anothers oppurtunity, ie DL closes up, AA, UA, US, and just about every other US carriers employees have a lot more job security. The pie (passengers) is not going anywhere if DL closes up, the pie slices just get cut differently.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 95):
Yes, and that's exactly the problem. When a team loses the Super Bowl, no one has to struggle to keep their family afloat, no one files for unemployment. No one loses their money. It's a GAME. This is NOT. There are real life consequenses with many innocent people caught in the middle.

If you're one of those cheerleaders that "roots" for airlines like this is a sport, you are a child.

There's plenty of companies I am not fond of, but I would never CHEER for anyone's ill will. I'm sorry, I've been burdened with this thing called a conscience, which it seems like a group of people on here lack. Maybe it's because they can sit behind a computer and say these things with impunity. I DARE any one to come to Atlanta and get dropped off on Virginia Avenue and start popping of at the mouth with those comments above and see how quickly they get their butts thrashed.

As for Football or sports being a game where no money is won or lost, think again, look at the difference between small market teams vs. big market teams and tell me money does not matter to them. Players (employees) get cut (fired) all the time. One definition of Sport is "a competiton". The airlines are playing a sport, air transportation, there are winners and losers like anything else.

If you really want to see some Sports like attitudes regarding Business, take a ride to my old neck of the woods, Detroit, drive up to one of the auto plants in a foreign car when the crew is getting off work, see how friendly of an exchange that is.

As for the employees being innocent, I don't buy that. The writing has been on the wall for the last 5 years. If job security was their # 1 objective, they should have looked elsewhere for employment than in an industry as cyclicle as the airline business. Try the Gov't. if job security is what you seek, they unfortunately never seem to lay-off anybody.  Sad

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-22 22:41:59 and read 3972 times.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 95):
I'm no fan of the union either, and I've enjoyed reading your posts, my comments were not directed towards you.

My bad  Wink



Well, I hope Delta pulls through, but with attitudes like we've seen here, I have to wonder about what will happen....

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: B777-700
Posted 2006-03-22 23:57:36 and read 3915 times.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 97):
As for the employees being innocent, I don't buy that.

Well, you are simply just wrong. I love how people just think anyone can just up and get another job like they can chance brands of toothpaste. There won't be any other jobs for a lot of people if 50,000 new applicants flood the market.

You have a lot of growing up to do.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-03-23 00:03:41 and read 3909 times.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 99):
Well, you are simply just wrong. I love how people just think anyone can just up and get another job like they can chance brands of toothpaste.

Agreed... NOTHING is a given in the working world...

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 99):
There won't be any other jobs for a lot of people if 50,000 new applicants flood the market.

 checkmark 
Why else do so many people become employees within a different industry upon leaving the airline industry, and I am referring to those who were either furloughed or laid off of course...

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Planemaker
Posted 2006-03-23 00:22:55 and read 3885 times.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 96):
DL may lack leadership, but a strike that would deliberately kill the airline is the dumbest move the pilots could make.

"WASHINGTON — Delta Air Lines Inc. is in better competitive shape than its executives portray and has performed so well recently that it doesn't need any of the $325 million or so in cuts it is seeking from its pilots, the pilots union sought to show Tuesday."

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/14154535.htm

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Joeman
Posted 2006-03-23 01:19:40 and read 3861 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 67):
If Delta charged the fare they needed to break even, AirTran and others would eat up all their business, because they can afford to profitably fly routes at a lower fare.

Bright future! The way things are going, LCC's may rule the domestic skies one day but at least there may be more point to point service based on O&D instead of the superhub and spoke model.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-23 01:31:21 and read 3846 times.

Quoting Joeman (Reply 102):
Bright future! The way things are going, LCC's may rule the domestic skies one day but at least there may be more point to point service based on O&D instead of the superhub and spoke model.

Agreed. If you think about it, all we are seeing is the late effects of deregulation, and the airlines shaking into place.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-23 01:33:07 and read 3840 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 71):
One has to wonder why the Gulfstream FO's need to pay tens of thousands for their first airline job while everyone else works in smaller craft and earns the interview the traditional way. I guess you really do get what you pay for sometimes....

You sound a little jealous there. There are many ways to get your interview. These guys paid money to go to the Gulfstream Academy, an academy accredited by the FAA to provide quality pilots. And like I said, I don't see 3M planes dropping left and right. Secondly, you can go the military route and let Uncle Sam pay for it all. Or you can do it the really expensive way, and work it bit by bit instructing, banner towing, whale watching, etc. and let it take longer. Its all a choice. One could also ask why you felt the need to work in the smaller aircraft and not be patriotic or wise enough to give up a decade to the USAF or USN.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 71):
Seems like a lot of wasted marketing, signage, and aircraft paint. If it worked so well, then why isn't song sticking around? It was a stupid, unsuccessful gimmick. How can you have a lower cost structure than Delta when you are, essentially, still Delta?

Just goes to show that know not what you speak of when it comes to that. Song is sticking around and will be called Delta. Everything that Song did, is being turned into system-wide Delta. Do I need to spell out what that means for you? Lower costs, higher aircraft utilization, etc. So Song is sticking around, just losing the name in exchange for Delta.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 71):
Figure out a way to pay your people and at least break even or you're eventually toast. And Revenue Management? Give me a break. I'll tell you what Delta needs to do with their revenue management people: Fire them all.

Once again, you don't provide an answer, but just try to argue the point. If you can't answer the question, then don't. You apparently have no solution to the problem, your just telling Delta to do whatever it needs to do to pay the pilots an exhorbant rate, a rate the PILOTS demanded when the economy was already going downhill. How about we not pay the exhorbant rate, but have the pilots take a paycut. That seems to have worked EVERYWHERE else without needing to change the entire airline, so it seems the better of the two choices. If its good enough for the other airlines(AA, UA, US, NW), then its gonna be good enough for DL.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 77):
I believe that an employee should stand up for themselves and demand the maximum pay and benefits the company can afford to pay them.

How does that help the company, which would need to have a large "rainy day bank" in order to stay afloat during the down times? If you split the money and give the employee as much as they possibly can and leaving little rest for the employer, that is putting both the employee and employer in a very un-safe situation should something bad happen that neither can control, like another 9/11, in this case. But please explain your theory a little more if you like, as your reasoning is truly staggering.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 81):
one thing i'd like to know, is management leading by example?

Yes. DL's top execs are getting paid less than some pilots.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 85):
My cousin is a DL employee and she feels the same way. But then again, she was also at Eastern and NW.

Then what the heck is she doing at DL? From her previous experience, she isn't very good at holding airline jobs. Its time for her to find another one. Is she still as bitter as she was at EA? From what you said, probably so.




OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-23 01:46:58 and read 3828 times.

OttoPylit,
Very well spoken welcome to my RU list
 bigthumbsup 

Cheers, and good luck

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Poitin
Posted 2006-03-23 01:57:43 and read 3810 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 104):
Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 81):
one thing i'd like to know, is management leading by example?

Yes. DL's top execs are getting paid less than some pilots.

Okay, I will challenge that. What are the numbers, and where did you get them?

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: FlyPNS1
Posted 2006-03-23 01:58:52 and read 3810 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 104):
You apparently have no solution to the problem, your just telling Delta to do whatever it needs to do to pay the pilots an exhorbant rate, a rate the PILOTS demanded when the economy was already going downhill.

If its such an exhorbitant rate, then how does WN pay 30% more than the exhorbitant rate? How does AA manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate? How does CO manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate? How does FL manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate?

All these carriers currently pay MORE than what DL is paying its pilots (and the gap will be even greater if DL gets the cuts it wants). None of these carriers are asking their pilots for additional cuts.

Maybe pilot pay isn't really DL's problem. But it's a lot easier for management to point the finger at pilots, rather than take responsibility for years of screw ups.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Swissy
Posted 2006-03-23 02:06:36 and read 3799 times.

[quote=FlyPNS1,reply=107]If its such an exhorbitant rate, then how does WN pay 30% more than the exhorbitant rate? How does AA manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate? How does CO manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate? How does FL manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate?

Because none of these airlines mentioned IS DL, perhaps DL has a different business plan, based on there financial situation????

Cheers,

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-23 02:16:11 and read 3791 times.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 107):
None of these carriers are asking their pilots for additional cuts.

None of those carriers are in Chapter 11 protection. And when CO was in chapter 11 twice, everybody took cuts, including the pilots.

AA has renegotiated their contracts with their employees, so they were able to avoid chapter 11.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-23 02:42:45 and read 3770 times.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 106):
Okay, I will challenge that. What are the numbers, and where did you get them?

http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay...rson&uniqueId=MIWE&datatype=Person

This is as of 2004. As of 2005, he lowered his pay to about $320,000, and he also lowered the pay of Delta COO Jim Whitehurst, although I'm not sure of those exact numbers. Also, no stock option, no bonuses, nothing, for all executives. As stated in the article, he even voluntarily gave up his pay. Something he has done every year since being with DL. There are 747 captains making more than Grinstein.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 107):
If its such an exhorbitant rate, then how does WN pay 30% more than the exhorbitant rate? How does AA manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate? How does CO manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate? How does FL manage to pay more than the exhorbitant rate?

May narrow-minded friend, the exhorbant rate that I am referring to, if you were paying attention, is the Contract 2000 rate, the one that made Delta pilots the highest paid of all U.S. pilots. So, no one was paying more than the exhorbant rate. If you paid attention to what I was talking about with KAUSpilot, you would have seen that. When the contract was inked, the economy was already going into the toilet. So you are wrong, no one was paying more than the exhorbant rate that DL pilots were paid.  sarcastic 

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 107):
Maybe pilot pay isn't really DL's problem. But it's a lot easier for management to point the finger at pilots, rather than take responsibility for years of screw ups.

Kinda hard to take responsibility for years of screwups, since none of the current Delta management has been here for years, except Grinstein as being on the BOD. However, I don't see Delta management pointing the finger, saying, "Its all their fault." I do, however, see Delta management saying, "Look, the market has changed. We are in BK and need to cut costs. The current rate that our pilots is un-competitive. Fuel, LCC's, and pilot costs are the biggest hurdle that we need to overcome. Even with the current cuts already in place, DL pilots are still paid more than most of their counterparts, and another cut is needed before DL can be competitive. So no one is pointing fingers and saying its all the pilots. But the pilot salary is one thing keeping DL down in the red.

I would think your smart enough to figure that out.




OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-23 03:45:12 and read 3729 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 104):
You sound a little jealous there. There are many ways to get your interview. These guys paid money to go to the Gulfstream Academy, an academy accredited by the FAA to provide quality pilots. And like I said, I don't see 3M planes dropping left and right. Secondly, you can go the military route and let Uncle Sam pay for it all. Or you can do it the really expensive way, and work it bit by bit instructing, banner towing, whale watching, etc. and let it take longer. Its all a choice. One could also ask why you felt the need to work in the smaller aircraft and not be patriotic or wise enough to give up a decade to the USAF or USN.

You truly have no idea how the piloting profession works, so I won't waste any more time with you about 3M, Otto. There's a huge difference between suriving the US military's pilot selection process and having daddy plunk down 30 grand so you can buy a job at an airline that would otherwise go to a paid professional. I'm in no way jealous of Gulfstream PFT'ers and the stigma they will have to deal with for the rest of their careers.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 104):
Just goes to show that know not what you speak of when it comes to that. Song is sticking around and will be called Delta. Everything that Song did, is being turned into system-wide Delta. Do I need to spell out what that means for you? Lower costs, higher aircraft utilization, etc. So Song is sticking around, just losing the name in exchange for Delta.

No, Song is not sticking around. They aren't changing the name of Delta to Song, they're getting rid of Song. Why you can't admit that Song is a failed marketing gimmick is beyond me.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 104):
Once again, you don't provide an answer, but just try to argue the point. If you can't answer the question, then don't. You apparently have no solution to the problem, your just telling Delta to do whatever it needs to do to pay the pilots an exhorbant rate, a rate the PILOTS demanded when the economy was already going downhill. How about we not pay the exhorbant rate, but have the pilots take a paycut. That seems to have worked EVERYWHERE else without needing to change the entire airline, so it seems the better of the two choices. If its good enough for the other airlines(AA, UA, US, NW), then its gonna be good enough for DL.

Well I already outlined my propsed alternative since somebody asks, but the only thing you're capable of doing is coming back and saying "PAYCUTS, PAYCUTS!". Good job.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 104):
How does that help the company, which would need to have a large "rainy day bank" in order to stay afloat during the down times? If you split the money and give the employee as much as they possibly can and leaving little rest for the employer, that is putting both the employee and employer in a very un-safe situation should something bad happen that neither can control, like another 9/11, in this case. But please explain your theory a little more if you like, as your reasoning is truly staggering.

You're throwing more unrelated topics into the argument. "Rainy Day Bank"? It's already raining.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 110):
Kinda hard to take responsibility for years of screwups, since none of the current Delta management has been here for years, except Grinstein as being on the BOD. However, I don't see Delta management pointing the finger, saying, "Its all their fault." I do, however, see Delta management saying, "Look, the market has changed. We are in BK and need to cut costs. The current rate that our pilots is un-competitive. Fuel, LCC's, and pilot costs are the biggest hurdle that we need to overcome. Even with the current cuts already in place, DL pilots are still paid more than most of their counterparts, and another cut is needed before DL can be competitive. So no one is pointing fingers and saying its all the pilots. But the pilot salary is one thing keeping DL down in the red.

If your attitude is shared by Delta Management, it's been nice knowing you Delta, because you won't be around much longer. Good luck on the job search, Delta Employees, and kudos to the pilots for standing up for what's right.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Vegasplanes
Posted 2006-03-23 03:48:06 and read 3728 times.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 99):
Well, you are simply just wrong. I love how people just think anyone can just up and get another job like they can chance brands of toothpaste. There won't be any other jobs for a lot of people if 50,000 new applicants flood the market.

You have a lot of growing up to do.

Please, maybe where your at it is hard to get a job, here in LAS, no problem landing jobs. Have you ever been laid-off/downsized/company sold etc ? I have, it was a great relief for me, gave me the "out" I had been looking for being I could not exactly get up and walk out of the company I was working for, too difficult when the owners of the company are partners in other ventures. Your talking 50,000 employees spread out throughout the US and World. It would be a hit maybe to ATL, CVG, or other places where DL has major ops., but on a national basis, a blip on the screen.

I grew up a long time ago, working for someone else is akin to being a toilet, somebody is always trying to take a dump on you.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2006-03-23 03:52:47 and read 3724 times.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 112):
working for someone else is akin to being a toilet

I think I have heard that one before....and took the advice and left the industry.
Now back to the thread.............
 veryhappy  safe

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-23 04:12:51 and read 3706 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 111):
Well I already outlined my propsed alternative since somebody asks, but the only thing you're capable of doing is coming back and saying "PAYCUTS, PAYCUTS!". Good job.

Paycuts are necessary when a company is cuttings costs to survive. This happens in every industry. They cut everything including salaries. Your pay is not a right. It is a privilege. If you are not happy with your pay, you have the freedom to leave the company in search of better pay. In fact, management asked for deep cuts before filing for chap 11. AA said the same thing to their unions. The diff is, the AA unions saw what was happening to the industry and agreed to the cuts. DL employees are now paying the price for not cutting enough.


The left are great at always pointing the blame at others and suggesting solutions that will not cost them a penny. Everyone else is to blame, except them. It is never their fault. If they go on strike and the airline fails, it will not be their fault.... no no no, it will be the fault of the management. Management should cut everywhere else except the poor working man's pay... I love it. Even after the Eastern chap 7, and others, they still believe they are fighting the good fight. The left never learn.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 111):
kudos to the pilots for standing up for what's right.

I'm sure they will be proud of what they have done while they are standing in line at the soup kitchens.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-23 04:15:08 and read 3700 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 111):
There's a huge difference between suriving the US military's pilot selection process and having daddy plunk down 30 grand so you can buy a job at an airline that would otherwise go to a paid professional.

Yes, there is, but you are making no sense. A friend of mine's Dad is a 744 captain at NW and plunked down the 30 grand for his training, and he is now a 25 yr old Pinnacle Captain. Are you saying he is not a paid professional? I would say he is, even if Dad paid for it. Another pilot I know is a ANG F-15C pilot, who beat out 50 other people for his slot, because the week before his pilot selection interview board, his Dad paid for him to get checked out in a Lear. So tell me, what is the difference between the two, and how are they not paid professionals, just because they didn't spend as much time as you in "little airplanes." I would say I know quite a bit about the piloting profession. I am a pilot and work directly with pilots all day long, so what else would I be missing?

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 111):
No, Song is not sticking around. They aren't changing the name of Delta to Song, they're getting rid of Song. Why you can't admit that Song is a failed marketing gimmick is beyond me.

If Delta is getting rid of Song, then why is the Delta service getting something officially termed as "Song service" on May 1? Song, in name, is going away. Song, in everything else, is staying as Delta. For some reason, you can't seem to grasp that fact. I'm not going to keep doing your research for you. Pick up a copy of the January 2006 'Airliners' magazine, and read for yourself, or do some online Google-ing. You'd be amazed how wrong you are.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 111):
Well I already outlined my propsed alternative since somebody asks, but the only thing you're capable of doing is coming back and saying "PAYCUTS, PAYCUTS!".

Oh, was what you outlined an alternative? Thank God your not running Delta, because it was anything but a successful alternative.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 111):
You're throwing more unrelated topics into the argument. "Rainy Day Bank"? It's already raining.

Because you, and DL pilots, already admit that the employee should squeeze as much money from the company as possible, and thats what they have done. Therefore, I would say its very related! Your just avoiding the truth. Look, if you can't argue viably, then don't. But don't go out and try to sway the topic, because your not doing a very good job.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 111):
Good luck on the job search, Delta Employees, and kudos to the pilots for standing up for what's right.

But, but, but, but you didn't wish good luck to the pilots, who will also be out of a job and mostly be S.O.L. if DL does go under. They may do what you think is right, but that doesn't keep a paycheck coming in. And I'm sure DL employees the world over enjoy your candor and wish of good luck, while you wish the company goes under. I'm sure its appreciated.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-23 04:34:39 and read 3676 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 115):
Yes, there is, but you are making no sense. A friend of mine's Dad is a 744 captain at NW and plunked down the 30 grand for his training, and he is now a 25 yr old Pinnacle Captain. Are you saying he is not a paid professional? I would say he is, even if Dad paid for it. Another pilot I know is a ANG F-15C pilot, who beat out 50 other people for his slot, because the week before his pilot selection interview board, his Dad paid for him to get checked out in a Lear. So tell me, what is the difference between the two, and how are they not paid professionals, just because they didn't spend as much time as you in "little airplanes." I would say I know quite a bit about the piloting profession. I am a pilot and work directly with pilots all day long, so what else would I be missing?

They aren't paid professionals if they're occupying the right seat in one of Gulfstream's airplanes. You do understand, that gulfstream FO's pay to train and sit in the right seat of a 1900, and that if they did not do this, Gulfstream would need to pay a qualified pilot to do this job?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 115):
Song, in name, is going away

Yep, Song is gone. It was a failed marketing gimmick and a waste of money. Why did they need to start "Song" in the first place? Does painting the airplanes a different color somehow make it easier to implement changes?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 115):
Oh, was what you outlined an alternative? Thank God your not running Delta, because it was anything but a successful alternative.

Ha! Well they couldn't do a whole lot worse than they're doing right now, could they?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 115):
Because you, and DL pilots, already admit that the employee should squeeze as much money from the company as possible, and thats what they have done. Therefore, I would say its very related! Your just avoiding the truth. Look, if you can't argue viably, then don't. But don't go out and try to sway the topic, because your not doing a very good job.

So this "rainy day fund" is yet another management luxury that should be subsidized by the employees. Riiiight.....

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 115):
But, but, but, but you didn't wish good luck to the pilots, who will also be out of a job and mostly be S.O.L. if DL does go under. They may do what you think is right, but that doesn't keep a paycheck coming in. And I'm sure DL employees the world over enjoy your candor and wish of good luck, while you wish the company goes under. I'm sure its appreciated.

Uhhh, I wished good luck to all Delta employees. You're telling me that Delta pilots don't fall into the category? Interesting....

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-23 04:38:22 and read 3671 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 114):
The left are great at always pointing the blame at others and suggesting solutions that will not cost them a penny. Everyone else is to blame, except them. It is never their fault. If they go on strike and the airline fails, it will not be their fault.... no no no, it will be the fault of the management. Management should cut everywhere else except the poor working man's pay... I love it. Even after the Eastern chap 7, and others, they still believe they are fighting the good fight. The left never learn.

Perhaps it's management that never learns that the company will cease to exist if you eliminate the employees' incentive to do the job. You keep trying to turn this into a political argument....it's nothing of the sort. The simple fact is, you need to pay your employees to keep things running, otherwise, your business will fail. What a shame.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-23 04:59:29 and read 3649 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 117):
Perhaps it's management that never learns that the company will cease to exist if you eliminate the employees' incentive to do the job. You keep trying to turn this into a political argument....it's nothing of the sort. The simple fact is, you need to pay your employees to keep things running, otherwise, your business will fail. What a shame.

Many pilots will be lost and go get jobs at airlines for a fraction of their previous wage. I understand its hard to be a custom to a cush lifestyle and have to give it up. But that's the nature of the business. Taking a wage cut if MUCH better than driving your airline out.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-23 05:06:58 and read 3640 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 118):
Many pilots will be lost and go get jobs at airlines for a fraction of their previous wage. I understand its hard to be a custom to a cush lifestyle and have to give it up. But that's the nature of the business. Taking a wage cut if MUCH better than driving your airline out.

They've alreeady taken a wage cut, and as has already been proven, their wages are competitive with other carriers.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-23 05:45:22 and read 3612 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 118):
Taking a wage cut if MUCH better than driving your airline out.

Agreed.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 119):
their wages are competitive with other carriers

I guess not if the company is bleeding the money that it is.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 117):
Perhaps it's management that never learns that the company will cease to exist if you eliminate the employees' incentive to do the job

Sorry to tell you man, but management is no longer in charge. The courts are... which means the creditors are now in charge. They don't give two craps whether the pilots' salaries are competitive with the other carriers. All that matters is the bottom line. Is Delta making money, yes or no? Will they survive $70 oil over an extended period of time? Can they compete head to head with the low cost carriers?

They will cut everything everywhere without mercy. They are the ones going to invest in the airline. If they believe costs cannot be cut enough they will pull the plug.

You claim that I am trying to make it into a political argument... I am not. Your idealism is touching, but in the real world idealism is not enough. It's not the sixties anymore. Demonstrating doesn't work, and the people with the money don't have time for stupidities. When the pilots start picketing, the airline will join Pan Am, Eastern, and others in the history books. Your union leaders (or employee group leader) will attempt to rally the troops like William Wallice, but the employees must use their heads rather then their hearts.

You claim that Delta's pilots are sending a message to the industry.... they are not. Delta's demise will only strengthen the other carriers and allow them the luxury of offering the lowest pay possible thanks to the flood of unemployed pilots.

It is sad that what you are standing up for is in fact going to strengthen the people you are trying to send a message to. I guess idealism is blinding...

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-23 07:42:19 and read 3575 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 120):
You claim that I am trying to make it into a political argument... I am not. Your idealism is touching, but in the real world idealism is not enough. It's not the sixties anymore. Demonstrating doesn't work, and the people with the money don't have time for stupidities. When the pilots start picketing, the airline will join Pan Am, Eastern, and others in the history books. Your union leaders (or employee group leader) will attempt to rally the troops like William Wallice, but the employees must use their heads rather then their hearts.

Yep, and they will lose a nice big chunk of the money they have invested if a strike occurs. Like it or not, the pilots do have control over wether or not the airline will continue to operate. If you monkey with them enough, they can shut it down.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Lightsaber
Posted 2006-03-23 07:46:22 and read 3573 times.

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 79):
There is demand for the DL fleet. These aircraft are sequential order from assembly with commonality throughout the fleet. Very attractive to serious inquirer's.

Ok, I'll grant you the 738's, 777's, and 763ER's will see demand and be placed quick. But the other types?
First, a link to DL's fleet. Unfortunately, my link for DL's fleet is six months out of date:
http://www.delta.com/about_delta/cor...ats_facts/aircraft_fleet/index.jsp

Let's discuss the other types:
CRJ's? I see a bunch of future beer cans.
MD-88's? Beer cans
MD-90? Beer cans
764ER? Good question, someone will take them, but who?
752... newest will find homes, oldest will be scrapped.

If DL goes under, much of their fleet would sit in the desert... That's part of their problem, suboptimal fleet.



Quoting B777-700 (Reply 80):
Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 34):
At least AirTran would be there to help fill in the gaps, minus the international flying.

No, not even close.

 checkmark  If DL were to go under, ATL would become a major feeding frenzy. No one would get to superhub their again. Oh, FL would get many more gates, but so would WN, and others. Who would jump in?

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 83):
If the situation at DL does get to crazy it is a very real possibility that GE/AMEX might pull the financing, that would be the end of DL.

 checkmark  people seem to forget the creditors can pull the plug pretty easily.

All of that said, I think DL has a chance. But it will all be decided within the next few weeks. Personally, I think their will be one or two extensions on the decision, so April 15th probably isn't as hard of a deadline as we might expect. But soon enough, we'll know DL's fate.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 46):
Fedex has 20,000 resumes on file waiting to be looked at.

UPS has 18,000 resumes on file waiting to be looked at.

Excellent points. There are quite a few wanting to get into the airline industry. IIRC B6, WN, and FL all get 7+ qualified applicants per pilot slot...  scratchchin  Now, I'm sure that is partially due to everyone sending their resume out to 20+ airlines. But it does bode ill for the pilots negotiating position.

I hope the pilots do ok in the negotiations. But the reality is management salaries are a tiny part of revenue where pilot salaries are multiples more (percentage wise of DL's revenue. Not that pilots get paid more, but there are many more pilots than managers at DL.) Oh, I think management should take cuts too. But what's that have to do with the price of beer? In other words, DL is in trouble. Like it or not the big money to cut is with the pilots. But they had better also up aircraft utilization, rationalize the fleets, impliment RFID luggage control, winglet the 783's and 752's, and a bunch of other cost control measures. Otherwise, this is rearanging deck chairs on the Titanic.

I hope DL survives.

Lightsaber

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-23 14:00:18 and read 3541 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 121):
Yep, and they will lose a nice big chunk of the money they have invested if a strike occurs. Like it or not, the pilots do have control over wether or not the airline will continue to operate. If you monkey with them enough, they can shut it down.

I know that may add a special feeling of importance, but in reality the pilots would be leading each other straight to the food stamp lines. I realize to creditors an airline is worth more alive than dead. However, a failing airline is worth more liquidated. At one point they will decide to cut their losses.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AASTEW
Posted 2006-03-23 17:14:00 and read 3482 times.

How come no one is talking about SWA's unionized employees contract? The unionized labor groups at SWA enjoy some of the highest salaries in the industry! Their company is well managed. The majors just need to get their other costs in order and stop coming to labor for all the answers.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-23 17:37:25 and read 3465 times.

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 124):
How come no one is talking about SWA's unionized employees contract? The unionized labor groups at SWA enjoy some of the highest salaries in the industry! Their company is well managed. The majors just need to get their other costs in order and stop coming to labor for all the answers.

One could also argue that SWA is not in the best position either. They have been terrific, but those fuel hedges are due to run out soon.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Surfdog75
Posted 2006-03-23 18:06:37 and read 3448 times.

This talk of DL going out of business is ridiculous. Management and the financiers stand to make so much money on this that they will never let the company fail over 160 mil. Not to mention those frothing at the mouth over financing a possible merger. They will continue to beat the "we're going ouy of business if the pilots strike" drum at every opportunity though. The thing is, they are the ones who control whether a nogotiated settlement is reached and how soon.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 120):
Sorry to tell you man, but management is no longer in charge.

Yes, management is still in charge of negotiations and they are determined to make an example of the only union on property. Very bad plan in my opinion.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-23 18:10:03 and read 3442 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 123):
realize to creditors an airline is worth more alive than dead

I would also add that many of Delta's creditors are also creditors for NW. They may just pull the plug on Delta and focus on getting NW up and running. It will make NW that much stronger.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-23 18:33:01 and read 3420 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 127):
I would also add that many of Delta's creditors are also creditors for NW. They may just pull the plug on Delta and focus on getting NW up and running. It will make NW that much stronger.

thats the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-23 20:14:36 and read 3369 times.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 128):
thats the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of

Why is it that ridiculous? Delta's creditors in the event of a strike decide that enough is enough and cut their losses. The creditors may take a loss in the short term, but if that means high returns in the long run with one of Delta's competitors, then so be it.

Creditors are not going to invest their money unless serious cuts are made. They don't want a transfer of wealth from them directly to the pilots. If the creditors are going to invest millions, over and above the losses they've already taken, the pilots are going to have to make a sacrifice in order to keep their jobs. If not, the airline will shut down. Plain and simple.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-23 21:49:54 and read 3326 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 116):
You do understand, that gulfstream FO's pay to train and sit in the right seat of a 1900, and that if they did not do this, Gulfstream would need to pay a qualified pilot to do this job?

But is that Captain NOT a qualified pilot to sit in the left seat? And does the FO not already have a pilot's license to sit in the right seat? They do. Your making it sound like they just take any kid off the street, throw him in a 1900, and send them on their way. Sorry, not so. They go through a fair bit of ground school, written and oral exams, and some flight training before even setting foot in a 1900.

http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/First_officer.php

Like I said, its ok to be jealous because you didn't have the cash. But don't berate them just because they did or that Daddy was rich.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 116):
Yep, Song is gone. It was a failed marketing gimmick and a waste of money.

Once again, you avoid the question. Tell me, IF Song is going away completely, why is Delta spreading "Song Service" and Song styled airplanes across the entire fleet starting in May? Obviously, if Song failed, they wouldn't expand the Song Service. I'm done with you on that argument.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 116):
Ha! Well they couldn't do a whole lot worse than they're doing right now, could they?

Well, with your ideology, Delta would already have a death date in the history books.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 116):
So this "rainy day fund" is yet another management luxury that should be subsidized by the employees.

Once again, you argue nothing. Who said anything about a "management luxury." I didn't. Oh, you did. You just love shooting yourself in the foot, don't you?  footinmouth  This is a fund that will be subsidized by the company making money, to ensure that when something bad happens, the shop doesn't immediately close up. Besides, if the company is making more money than the employees and all other bills are due to be paid, should even more money be extended to the employees? I think not. I can see you've never run your own business, have you?

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 116):
Uhhh, I wished good luck to all Delta employees. You're telling me that Delta pilots don't fall into the category? Interesting....

If you had any knowledge of past Delta pilot actions, even prior to 9/11(which you don't, so don't pretend you do), no Delta employee considers pilots any more of the Delta family as an employee. They feel they are paid by ALPA, so they can consider themselves ALPA employees. And when they lose their job, we will see how much attention ALPA gives to a sudden non-pilot who can't afford union dues. It will be quite the awakening.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 119):
They've alreeady taken a wage cut, and as has already been proven, their wages are competitive with other carriers.

Their still getting paid more than most of their counterparts at their current pay. How is that competitive again?

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 120):
You claim that Delta's pilots are sending a message to the industry.... they are not. Delta's demise will only strengthen the other carriers and allow them the luxury of offering the lowest pay possible thanks to the flood of unemployed pilots.

BINGO!




OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-23 22:16:04 and read 3301 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 130):
But is that Captain NOT a qualified pilot to sit in the left seat? And does the FO not already have a pilot's license to sit in the right seat? They do. Your making it sound like they just take any kid off the street, throw him in a 1900, and send them on their way. Sorry, not so. They go through a fair bit of ground school, written and oral exams, and some flight training before even setting foot in a 1900.

Hey, thanks for making assumptions about my financial status and my training. Once again, you have no clue what you're talking about. Gulfstream Pay-For-Job FO's take shortcuts and remove paying jobs from the industry. I could very easily have paid 30,000 dollars for the gulfstream program had I wanted to. However, I refuse to contribute to the degredation of the profession. I realized the stigma that I'd have to live with if I did this, and also realized that you can become qualified for an airline career for much less money, if you have the work ethic to do things the proper way.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 130):
Once again, you avoid the question. Tell me, IF Song is going away completely, why is Delta spreading "Song Service" and Song styled airplanes across the entire fleet starting in May? Obviously, if Song failed, they wouldn't expand the Song Service. I'm done with you on that argument.

It's pretty simple. Delta management would never admit that they screwed up royally by creating song in the first place. They have to come up with some justification for their aggregous error. The bottom line is that Song is going away because it was yet another failure by DL management.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 130):
Once again, you argue nothing. Who said anything about a "management luxury." I didn't. Oh, you did. You just love shooting yourself in the foot, don't you? This is a fund that will be subsidized by the company making money, to ensure that when something bad happens, the shop doesn't immediately close up. Besides, if the company is making more money than the employees and all other bills are due to be paid, should even more money be extended to the employees? I think not. I can see you've never run your own business, have you?

Yeah, and Delta isn't exactly making money right now. The whole topic of what they need to do with the extra cash they have lying around is irrelevant, since they don't have any. Of course the company should pay its employees more when its profitable, especially if they asked for concessions when the company is losing money. If the employees are smart they will demand that. I can see that you've never worked as an airline pilot, have you? Write me back when you've done that.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 130):
Their still getting paid more than most of their counterparts at their current pay. How is that competitive again?

Dead wrong, I think these companies would comprise "most" of DL's coutnerparts. DL is competitive.

SWA 5 Year 737 CA - $176/hr
AA 5 Year 737 CA - $150/hr
CAL 5 Year 737 CA - $135/hr
AS 5 Year 737 CA -$135/hr
NWA 5 Year A320 CA - $130/hr
DAL 5 Year 737 CA - $127/hr

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Richierich
Posted 2006-03-23 22:30:48 and read 3282 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
It's pretty simple. Delta management would never admit that they screwed up royally by creating song in the first place. They have to come up with some justification for their aggregous error. The bottom line is that Song is going away because it was yet another failure by DL management.

To use Otto's own words: BINGO!!!!!!!

The Deltamaniacs in here somehow refuse to believe the obvious that bringing Song class-of-service to mainline is the same as having Song operate seperately. It isn't. In order for Song to have worked, it needed to have FC in order to help subsidize it. All that marketing money, expense of plane painting (re-painting?), and everything that went into building the Song brand is being thrown out the window with only a few pieces remaining. Granted, those pieces will make DL mainline coach a much better product but to spin this as anything other than Song going away as a separate unit is complete nonsense. Its not a Song expansion, its a Song retraction with a mainline makeover.

However, with all the political stuff going on at DL, I think Song should be the least of their concerns. I am in the belief that these are bad times for Delta but not dire times. I'm hoping the DL that emerges from bankruptcy will be leaner and more efficient than the old horse that went in. Its going to be painful but clearly remaining status quo isn't going to cut it.

[Edited 2006-03-23 23:08:23]

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Panamair
Posted 2006-03-23 22:58:11 and read 3255 times.

Here's an idea - I just read that SkyMiles has over 38 million members..does anyone realize that if one collected $4.50 per person every year, we would have this whole difference of $160 million between DALPA and Management over and done with?  Silly

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Isitsafenow
Posted 2006-03-23 22:58:52 and read 3255 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
The bottom line is that Song is going away because it was yet another failure by DL management.

Thank you. I have said this for a couple of years and let me repeat.
Where are the savings....payments or cost of a Song 757 vs. a DL 757.....pay a Song flight crew vs. a DL flight crew...insure Song 757 vs.a DL 757..fuel Song 757 vs. fuel DL 757...
I repeat ...where are the savings?
and where was DL's head on this one?
safe

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-23 23:01:28 and read 3250 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
Hey, thanks for making assumptions about my financial status and my training. Once again, you have no clue what you're talking about.

Never said I did, but you sound very jealous that they can pay for their training quickly. You sound a little vindictive towards them, such as calling them "unqualified" and referring to them as "little rich kids with Daddy's 30 grand in their hands" like you did earlier.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
Gulfstream Pay-For-Job FO's take shortcuts and remove paying jobs from the industry. I could very easily have paid 30,000 dollars for the gulfstream program had I wanted to.

See. You just proved my point.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
However, I refuse to contribute to the degredation of the profession. I realized the stigma that I'd have to live with if I did this, and also realized that you can become qualified for an airline career for much less money, if you have the work ethic to do things the proper way.

OK, you feel that you are degrading the profession if you did that. They feel they would degrade themselves if they didn't take the quickest road to be where they want to. Actual pilots. They pay and achieve that, while you are still instructing. Don't beat them down just because they did it the way they wanted to. I don't see them doing the same way to you. Either you are jealous of them and subconsciously kicking yourself in the ass, or you are always a jerk that criticizes others that don't make the same choices as you do. Which is it? Obviously, the FAA feels that the Gulfstream Academy does NOT "degrade" the profession and provides quality pilots. If I had to trust you or this govermental organization, which do you think I am going to believe? By the way, do you feel this same way about other schools that cost money, such as Embry-Riddle, FlightSafety, ATP, Comair/Delta Connection Academy, Regional Airline Academy, and others? After all, some of these schools get internships and guaranteed interviews with airlines. Because if you feel the same way, then I will know my answer as to whether you are jealous or not.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
The bottom line is that Song is going away because it was yet another failure by DL management.

If that helps you sleep at night, sweetie. I won't rain on your little parade.  raincloud 

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
The whole topic of what they need to do with the extra cash they have lying around is irrelevant, since they don't have any. Of course the company should pay its employees more when its profitable, especially if they asked for concessions when the company is losing money. If the employees are smart they will demand that

Exactly, they don't have it, and need it. Just for the reason as to why they need concessions. Right after 9/11. Delta had more money than any other airline stashed away for the rainy day fund. Had they not had that, Delta would have not have made it to their 75th birthday, as they have. They would have caved in after the first quaterly loss, because they would not have had anything to absorb the impact. Is it sinking in now? Had they not stashed away money in a mayonnaise jar and buried in the front yard before, ALL DL pilots would already be out of a job. Even they know that.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
I can see that you've never worked as an airline pilot, have you? Write me back when you've done that.

I don't know, I'm already a private pilot, and if keeping my head up in the clouds makes me think like you, I don't think I would want that. Besides, if I did choose to become a pilot, I live in a city with several of those profession-degradation schools we discussed. You know, the ones your so jealous about.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 131):
Dead wrong, I think these companies would comprise "most" of DL's coutnerparts. DL is competitive.

Dead wrong. Delta is in the top tier of airlines that have not yet taken pay cuts(not sure of AA, but the chart does not reflect NW's yet to be taken cut).


12 yr Captains of 737/320 aircraft:

NW- $159/hr
AA- $158/hr
DL- $149/hr
CO- $140/hr
US- $134/hr
UA- $129/hr

So see, until NW takes a pay cut, and if AA ends up needing to take a cut, that will make DL the highest paid of legacy majors. Like I said, I'm not sure if AA will need to take a cut, and the chart does not mirror NW's T/A contract.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Jumbojet
Posted 2006-03-23 23:04:14 and read 3235 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 129):
Why is it that ridiculous? Delta's creditors in the event of a strike

this is different from what you originally said. If delta strikes I would say the same thing as you. In the event of a strike, then I say thats not so ridiculous

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-23 23:08:57 and read 3228 times.

Here we go, right off the press. Note the second to last paragraph:


Ed Bastian, chief financial officer, thanked the mutually agreed upon third-party panel for its time in giving Delta an opportunity to explain the need for pilot labor cost reductions if Delta is to emerge from bankruptcy as a viable competitor.

"There is much at stake," he said. "Delta's long-term viability depends on getting the level of pilot cost reductions needed to succeed."

Bastian also said this is a challenge Delta people must face together – fairly and equitably. "Our nonpilot employees – more than 40,000 of them – are sacrificing and doing their fare share. So are our lessors, creditors and other stakeholders. The hard truth is, we can no longer afford to have our pilots remain among the highest wage earners in the industry."

The panel spent two weeks listening to explanations from both sides. Bastian maintain Delta's preference remains to reach a consensual agreement and the company remains willing to negotiate. "We are open to how we realize the amount of annual cost reductions we need to succeed long-term and we have addressed pensions in the event the pilots' defined benefit plan is terminated. It is in the best interest of all parties to reach an agreement and we hope this process and this panel as agreed to by both parties – will provide the framework to do so.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Bucky707
Posted 2006-03-23 23:17:48 and read 3202 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 135):
12 yr Captains of 737/320 aircraft:

NW- $159/hr
AA- $158/hr
DL- $149/hr
CO- $140/hr
US- $134/hr
UA- $129/hr

First of all, your numbers are not all correct. Second, you chose the 737-800 for the Delta 737 instead of teh 737-200 or 300. So lets look at the real numbers.

AA 737-800 $158
CO 737-800 $163
DL 737-800 $149
AK 737-800 $154 (AK pays the same for all 737 models)


Now for a 737-700, 300, or 400
CO 737-700/300/500 $144
UA 737-300/500 $129
USAir 737-300/400 $125
America West 737-300 $138
Delta 737-200/300 $134
Airtran 737-700 $153
AK 737-700/400 $154 (same for all 737 models at AK)

All numbers taken from Airlinepilotcentral.com so look for yourself.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-23 23:27:13 and read 3184 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 104):
Then what the heck is she doing at DL? From her previous experience, she isn't very good at holding airline jobs. Its time for her to find another one. Is she still as bitter as she was at EA?

DL hired her away from NW, and she's not bitter. At Eastern, she wasn't bitter, she was just at entry-level there, at NW she stepped up into Middle management, same at DL.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-23 23:40:37 and read 3170 times.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 138):
First of all, your numbers are not all correct. Second, you chose the 737-800 for the Delta 737 instead of teh 737-200 or 300. So lets look at the real numbers.

Bucky, come on! You and I both know the 200 and 300 are going out of style real quick. We only have 8 300's in service. 200's are going out pretty quick as well. In a year, those numbers really won't matter, but the 800 numbers will.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 138):
All numbers taken from Airlinepilotcentral.com so look for yourself.

I took all of my numbers from the same website as you. So one of us is lying. Which one? Your argument has some bias in it. Mine doesn't. Food for thought.  scratchchin 

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 139):
DL hired her away from NW, and she's not bitter. At Eastern, she wasn't bitter, she was just at entry-level there, at NW she stepped up into Middle management, same at DL.

Middle management wanting the airline to fold and put her out of a job again. Sorry, my BS meter is ringing off the hook, so I'm gonna call foul on this one.  redflag 



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-23 23:51:20 and read 3154 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 135):
By the way, do you feel this same way about other schools that cost money, such as Embry-Riddle, FlightSafety, ATP, Comair/Delta Connection Academy, Regional Airline Academy, and others?

I don't like those programs either, but they aren't as bad as gulfstream, because they aren't PAYING to sit in the right seat an airliner. That's where the Gulfstream program crosses the line. Everyone is held to the same government standard regardless of where they go to school. The FAA administered checkride you take has the same standards. Getting ripped off and paying 90 grand to train at Flight Safety or Embry Riddle does not make you a better or safer pilot, it just makes you a poorer one.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 135):
You know, the ones your so jealous about

Man, you just don't give up on the jealousy bit. Why in the world would I be jealous of someone who vastly overpaid for their flight training and didn't get there much if any faster than I did. Jealousy is not the motivation for this criticism. I am critical of these programs because they:

a) Eliminate paid positions by placing under-qualified pilots into the right seat of airliners.
b) Take advantage of their participants by grossly overcharging them.
c) Cultivate an unprofessional group of workers as demonstrated by Pinnacle flt 3701.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 135):
Dead wrong. Delta is in the top tier of airlines that have not yet taken pay cuts(not sure of AA, but the chart does not reflect NW's yet to be taken cut).


12 yr Captains of 737/320 aircraft:

NW- $159/hr
AA- $158/hr
DL- $149/hr
CO- $140/hr
US- $134/hr
UA- $129/hr

So see, until NW takes a pay cut, and if AA ends up needing to take a cut, that will make DL the highest paid of legacy majors. Like I said, I'm not sure if AA will need to take a cut, and the chart does not mirror NW's T/A contract.

First of all, where are you getting these numbers.

The numbers for a 12 year 737 800/900 captain at CO is $163. For AA it's $158. For NW it's $137 on the 320. US is $134 and Jetblue is $139. Airtran is $153. You hear that? A senior AirTran makes more for a 737 captain than DL. Pretty competitive if you ask me.

These numbers are all comparable, and DL is actually cheaper than many. CO has already taken cuts, and Delta is already lower.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-23 23:57:49 and read 3149 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 140):
Middle management wanting the airline to fold and put her out of a job again. Sorry, my BS meter is ringing off the hook, so I'm gonna call foul on this one.

Call it what you will, she wont leave becasue of the terms of her employment contract (she has 5 more years left), and AirTran has no available positions, same with CO. She's not loyal to DL, but she's not going to break her contract either.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-24 00:38:21 and read 3131 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 141):
Getting ripped off and paying 90 grand to train at Flight Safety or Embry Riddle does not make you a better or safer pilot, it just makes you a poorer one.

Sounds like you need a class in logic and common sense. I'm sure you've taken various classes at the above mentioned? Sounds like you have a serious case of jealousy.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-24 00:43:02 and read 3120 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 143):
Sounds like you need a class in logic and common sense. I'm sure you've taken various classes at the above mentioned? Sounds like you have a serious case of jealousy.

Tell me again why I should be jealous?

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Bucky707
Posted 2006-03-24 00:56:09 and read 3105 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 140):
Bucky, come on! You and I both know the 200 and 300 are going out of style real quick. We only have 8 300's in service. 200's are going out pretty quick as well. In a year, those numbers really won't matter, but the 800 numbers will.

Ok, I won't argue about that the 200s and 300s are going away. But the rate I quoted for the 737-300 and 200 is also the contractual rate for the -700. I think there are pretty good odds we end up with some of those on property. Add to that I think the only fair comparison is to compare the same aircraft. Compare an -800 to an -800. Also, the MD-88s are going to be around for at least a few years. They seat 142, larger than a 737-300 or 700. The rate for a Delta MD-88 twelve year captain is 138 an hour, below even the incorrect number you cited for CO. Also, I notice you leave out Airtran, Alaska, Frontier, Jetblue, Southwest, and others that pay more than Delta. Why not tell the whole story?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 140):
I took all of my numbers from the same website as you. So one of us is lying. Which one? Your argument has some bias in it. Mine doesn't. Food for thought.

Ok, lets take a look at what you posted. Here it is.....

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 135):
12 yr Captains of 737/320 aircraft:

NW- $159/hr
AA- $158/hr
DL- $149/hr
CO- $140/hr
US- $134/hr
UA- $129/hr

So you said 140 an hour for a CO 737/320. Airlinepilotcentral.com accurately lists CO 737 pay as 163 for a large narrowbody, and 144 for a small narrowbody. Which one is the 737-800, or do you even know? And yes there is a rate quoted for a small narrowbody at 140 an hour, but that is for a nine year captain, while the rate you quoted for a Delta 737-800 captain is for a 12 year captain. Interesting. Did you make a mistake, or did you intentionally use incorrect numbers?

Folks, don't listen to me and don't listen to Otto. Go to airlinepilotcentral.com and look for yourself. See what you find, and then see who it telling the truth.

[Edited 2006-03-24 01:03:52]

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-24 01:03:37 and read 3094 times.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 145):
Interesting. Did you make a mistake, or did you intentionally use incorrect numbers?

LOL, it wouldnt be the first time either, I bet. Welcome to my RU list Bucky!

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-24 01:04:09 and read 3094 times.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 145):
Folks, don't listen to me and don't listen to Otto. Go to airlinepilotcentral.com and look for yourself. See what you find, and then see who it telling the truth.

pwned.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Steeler83
Posted 2006-03-24 01:23:44 and read 3064 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 120):
Sorry to tell you man, but management is no longer in charge. The courts are... which means the creditors are now in charge. They don't give two craps whether the pilots' salaries are competitive with the other carriers. All that matters is the bottom line. Is Delta making money, yes or no? Will they survive $70 oil over an extended period of time? Can they compete head to head with the low cost carriers?



Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 126):
Yes, management is still in charge of negotiations and they are determined to make an example of the only union on property. Very bad plan in my opinion.

When an airline is on the verge of collapse, then its very existence is at the mercy of its creditors. Remember when US first proposed to merge with America West??? It was the CREDITORS who eventually made it happen. After pilots, attendants, mechanics and what have you agreed to go ahead, the creditors and the bankrupcy judge had the final say on a go or a no go with the merger. If you think management still is in charge, may I suggest you do a little research regarding the US/HP merger...

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-24 01:24:05 and read 3063 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 144):
Tell me again why I should be jealous?

Don't know you. Your strong feelings in your posts make it more than obvious to the rest of this board.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-24 01:26:56 and read 3063 times.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 149):
Don't know you. Your strong feelings in your posts make it more than obvious to the rest of this board.

Don't think so, only you and ottopylt seem to think that. Give me one good reason why I would be jealous of someone who paid double what I did for the same training, and the same certificates. I feel sorry for these gulfstream PFJ'ers and Delta Connection Academy Students if anything. They are being taken for highway robbery.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Ptharris
Posted 2006-03-24 01:28:56 and read 3059 times.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 41):
(Besides, im leaving in 3 weeks for a better airline...)

Isn't this like knocking and running?  crazy 

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-24 01:29:09 and read 3059 times.

So your reasons for me being jealous are as follows:

A) Strong Feelings
B) Everyone Else thinks so

That's some bang up logic you've got there, Micstatic. Tell me again who needs the "class in logic and common sense."

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-24 01:32:01 and read 3056 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 141):
I don't like those programs either, but they aren't as bad as gulfstream, because they aren't PAYING to sit in the right seat an airliner.



Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 141):
Getting ripped off and paying 90 grand to train at Flight Safety or Embry Riddle does not make you a better or safer pilot, it just makes you a poorer one.

So jealousy it is. I understand. Just because someone chose to pay the money to get quick training(and most instructors I ever spoke with told me its better to learn all your info in as short a time as possible, as to remember everything and not develop bad habits) and did not take whatever route you have taken, suddenly makes them bad pilots, in your opinion. Remember, you said, the government holds them to the same standards and the checkride is the same. Obviously, these people that paid for their hours and ratings quickly also passed their checkrides as well. Enough to satisfy the FAA, anyway. So, by your standards, they are only as bad a pilot as...you.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 141):
Man, you just don't give up on the jealousy bit. Why in the world would I be jealous of someone who vastly overpaid for their flight training and didn't get there much if any faster than I did. Jealousy is not the motivation for this criticism. I am critical of these programs because they:

a) Eliminate paid positions by placing under-qualified pilots into the right seat of airliners.
b) Take advantage of their participants by grossly overcharging them.
c) Cultivate an unprofessional group of workers as demonstrated by Pinnacle flt 3701

d)Put someone in the right seat faster than you because I assume you couldn't get in there.

Face it. It doesn't matter how they got there, they got there. But if you are going to hold all Gulfstream Academy(and other flight school) graduates to that standard, then I guess we shouldn't discuss all the air crashes that happened to have an Air Force or Navy pilot at the controls. Apparently, those services put those obviously underqualified pilots at the controls, took advantage of them by sucking away a decade of their life to the armed services, cultivated an unprofessional group of aviators that couldn't get a flight from Point A to Point B.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 141):
First of all, where are you getting these numbers.

From here:

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/a...s/airlines/airlines-2005030344.htm

A website that was so graciously offered on here by....well, you. Apparently, I was mistaken on the Continental captain. Typo on my part.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 142):
She's not loyal to DL, but she's not going to break her contract either.

Then she shouldn't be there in the first place. If she's not loyal, why did she take the job in the first place? Just a money-grabber looking for(at the time) Delta's leading payscales? I guess people like her are why Delta has lost its wonderful customer service, because she just doesn't care. That kind of attitudes goes over real well at Airtran, but I don't think CO would put up with her un-loyal attitude. Gotta love that Eastern and Northwest passion! spit  I still don't buy the story, but I'll play along for fun.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 143):
Sounds like you have a serious case of jealousy.

Watch out. He will jealously defend that he is not jealous at others who were willing to pay for their training. He doesn't know that jealousy has a very nasty stench and can be picked up even online.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 145):
Also, I notice you leave out Airtran, Alaska, Frontier, Jetblue, Southwest, and others that pay more than Delta. Why not tell the whole story?

I was referring to major legacy carriers. Sorry, but with the exception of Southwest, I don't consider any of those to be major carriers, and especially not legacy carriers. I compare one major along with the other majors. But if those LCC's pay so much better, why are you still here again? I did admit that I was wrong on the CO number. I accidentally looked at the wrong pay rate and copied it down. Oops.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 145):
Which one is the 737-800, or do you even know?

Now, I'm just spit-balling here, but I would "estimate" that the 738 for CO would be an LN. My reasoning for that is that they have the 753, 752, 739, and 738 and also have all the smaller 737 classes, and I think their MD-80's are all gone now. So I would guess the 738 would be in the LN category. Am I right, Bucky?



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-24 01:42:26 and read 3039 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 153):
So jealousy it is. I understand. Just because someone chose to pay the money to get quick training(and most instructors I ever spoke with told me its better to learn all your info in as short a time as possible, as to remember everything and not develop bad habits) and did not take whatever route you have taken, suddenly makes them bad pilots, in your opinion. Remember, you said, the government holds them to the same standards and the checkride is the same. Obviously, these people that paid for their hours and ratings quickly also passed their checkrides as well. Enough to satisfy the FAA, anyway. So, by your standards, they are only as bad a pilot as...you.

Nope, speed has nothing to do with it. If you had actually read what I had posted you might comprehend this. I was hired by an airline straight out of college without shelling out 90k for flight training.

But, but, but, you mean you don't have to pay a Mega-Academy close to 100,000 dollars to get a regional airline job? Nope, sure don't, and you're a fool if you do.

Now, what you seem to be ignoring, is the fact that Gulfstream FO's are paying the airline for a job that would otherwise be occupied by someone who is being paid by the airline. You're fine with this, I'm not. That's the difference between me and you. I am in no way jealous of someone who PAYS THEIR EMPLOYER TO GO TO WORK EVERDAY. That would suck.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 153):
A website that was so graciously offered on here by....well, you. Apparently, I was mistaken on the Continental captain. Typo on my part.

Yeah, one of many "typos". LMAO. You are incredibly wrong on the argument that DL's rates aren't competitive. Give it up already.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 153):
Watch out. He will jealously defend that he is not jealous at others who were willing to pay for their training. He doesn't know that jealousy has a very nasty stench and can be picked up even online.

You sound like a 3rd grade schoolboy who has lost the argument...."but, but but,....you're just jealous!! WAHHHH!". Nice job, apparantly I've won the argument.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Micstatic
Posted 2006-03-24 01:43:39 and read 3039 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 152):
That's some bang up logic you've got there, Micstatic. Tell me again who needs the "class in logic and common sense."

I think I'll just let you be. You seem to be beating yourself up enough with some of your posts

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-24 01:49:20 and read 3032 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 152):
So your reasons for me being jealous are as follows:

A) Strong Feelings
B) Everyone Else thinks so

That's some bang up logic you've got there, Micstatic. Tell me again who needs the "class in logic and common sense."

I don't know, I have an entire flight school filled with instructors and students at DCA, GA, ATP, ERAU, etc, etc, that seem to think against your "logic." Secondly, your strong feelings and not being able to "give up" the argument says a lot as well. Third, you refer to them as such bad, bad people, as if they ran over your kitten intentionally or something. They are just people trying to become a pilot. They chose to do it their way, a way the FAA approves of, and don't knock your way of getting there. Yet, you knock their way of getting there. Because of that, it clearly shows jealousy. And fourth, you think everyone else agrees with you, and thats clearly not the case.

Lets see, I can go to Comair Academy, pay for my training, eat, sleep, and breathe flying all day long, and after 600 hrs(minimum, if your lucky), get an interview and hired by Comair or a partner airline and be in the right seat. Yet, you choose to nickel and dime your way for hour after hour from banner towing, instructing, whatever it is you did. The FAA says I am perfectly qualified to be hired with my 600 hrs, whereas Comair's hiring requirements for NON-Comair Academy applicants is what, 1,500 hrs? If anything, your getting the short end of the stick, in my opinion. But its ok, let your jealousy continue to ooze out.

Why don't you enlighten us and tell us how you got all of your ratings, so we will have something to compare.




OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-24 01:52:15 and read 3028 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 153):
Now, I'm just spit-balling here, but I would "estimate" that the 738 for CO would be an LN. My reasoning for that is that they have the 753, 752, 739, and 738 and also have all the smaller 737 classes, and I think their MD-80's are all gone now. So I would guess the 738 would be in the LN category.

CO's Large Narrowbodies:
757-300
757-200
737-900
737-800

CO's Small Narrowbodies:
737-700
737-300
737-500

The MD-80's were retired last year.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-24 02:02:11 and read 3016 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 156):
Lets see, I can go to Comair Academy, pay for my training, eat, sleep, and breathe flying all day long, and after 600 hrs(minimum, if your lucky), get an interview and hired by Comair or a partner airline and be in the right seat. Yet, you choose to nickel and dime your way for hour after hour from banner towing, instructing, whatever it is you did. The FAA says I am perfectly qualified to be hired with my 600 hrs, whereas Comair's hiring requirements for NON-Comair Academy applicants is what, 1,500 hrs? If anything, your getting the short end of the stick, in my opinion. But its ok, let your jealousy continue to ooze out.

I will tell you I wasn't too far off that 600 hr mark when I got hired by a regional, and it didn't take thousands of wasted dollars at a big florida rip-off academy to do it. I was also paid for the hours I flew beyond my commercial and CFI certificates, instead of continuing to pay some academy for them. Some people are just too lazy to go out and earn that first entry-level job I guess. They'd rather buy their way into the industry. Fine, if you have the money, but it's a total waste, and a cop-out. I have no jealousy or hate for the academy people, just sympathy for the students who are getting ripped off and misled.

Also, how are you going to get a guaranteed job at Comair when they've periodically had pilots on furlough for the last 5 years. If you go to a flight school because of their promise of an airline interview, you're doing it for the wrong reason.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-24 02:03:44 and read 3013 times.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 154):
Now, what you seem to be ignoring, is the fact that Gulfstream FO's are paying the airline for a job that would otherwise be occupied by someone who is being paid by the airline. You're fine with this, I'm not. That's the difference between me and you. I am in no way jealous of someone who PAYS THEIR EMPLOYER TO GO TO WORK EVERDAY. That would suck.

I could guess that you applied to 3M, but was not hired because they prefer to put their own students into the seat. That sucks. Your loss, their gain.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 154):
Yeah, one of many "typos". LMAO. You are incredibly wrong on the argument that DL's rates aren't competitive.

Where were the "other" typos? I had one airline wrong, you had "selective" choosing in your post.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 154):
Nice job, apparantly I've won the argument.

What are you talking about. Your still ranting. I said your jealous, and you keep coming back with stuff about those stupid creeps who go to a flight school and beat you to the right seat. "Thats just pathetic and low-class, those a-holes should be taken out and shot" type of mantra. The more I bring it up, the more you defend it, and the more you prove your point. I've already gotten 3 messages from others on here laughing at your jealousy. But keep defending away.

By the way, in another of your weak posts, you misspelled "owned."(I guess thats what you were trying to say) Talk about, a bummer of a backfire.



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-24 02:09:49 and read 3008 times.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 157):

So I got it correct. Thanks.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 158):
Also, how are you going to get a guaranteed job at Comair when they've periodically had pilots on furlough for the last 5 years.

I never said you were guaranteed a job. I said you were guaranteed an interview. And they have not had pilots on furlough for the past 5 years. I don't know where you get that from. They just recently started furloughing last year when DL made them start ditching some older CRJ's. A good friend of mine had a 3 year seniority with them and is now flying bank checks in the mean time.


But Micstatic was right, I'll let you be. Your doing a great job beating yourself up, and unfortunately, I must get back to paying attention to my job. I love getting paid while I post on here!



OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: KAUSpilot
Posted 2006-03-24 02:18:42 and read 2992 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 159):
I could guess that you applied to 3M, but was not hired because they prefer to put their own students into the seat. That sucks. Your loss, their gain.

Now that is funny. I make more as 2nd year RJ FO than most Gulfstream B1900 Captains (and I'm still waaay underpaid). My current job is the only regional I've ever applied to, so there goes that theory. The last thing I'd ever want to do is shell out 30,000 to ride right seat in a B1900, and I'd tell you that even when I was newly minted 250 hour commercial pilot.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 159):
By the way, in another of your weak posts, you misspelled "owned."(I guess thats what you were trying to say) Talk about, a bummer of a backfire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwned , enlighten yourself.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 160):
But Micstatic was right, I'll let you be. Your doing a great job beating yourself up, and unfortunately, I must get back to paying attention to my job. I love getting paid while I post on here!

All right, nice talking to you.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: Bucky707
Posted 2006-03-24 02:58:33 and read 2967 times.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 153):
I was referring to major legacy carriers. Sorry, but with the exception of Southwest, I don't consider any of those to be major carriers, and especially not legacy carriers. I compare one major along with the other majors. But if those LCC's pay so much better, why are you still here again?

Why am I still here? First of all, I have a good back up cause my wife makes good money. So no need to rush out the door. Second, and thanks to the wife, I have a non flying job lined up. Third, I have applied to a few other airlines. Only one interview coming up, next month. For this one, if I get it, I'm gone. Only a few airlines I would go to. Beyond that, if Delta goes under, I am done with flying.

Most importantly though, I think Delta can survive. I think Delta will survive. Also I believe that the company's request goes far beyond what they truly need from the pilots. I think they can and will settle for less and then we can move on and return Delta to its former glory. I also think the pilots can retain enough of the contract to make this job worthwhile if we stick together.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 153):
Now, I'm just spit-balling here, but I would "estimate" that the 738 for CO would be an LN. My reasoning for that is that they have the 753, 752, 739, and 738 and also have all the smaller 737 classes, and I think their MD-80's are all gone now. So I would guess the 738 would be in the LN category. Am I right, Bucky?

Very good. And good for you for admitting your mistake. All I ask is be honest when you put numbers out there. Try to tell the whole story. Do I alway get it right....no. But I try very hard to be accurate and to give a good description of the numbers I present and where they come from.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-24 03:37:39 and read 2939 times.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 162):
I think they can and will settle for less and then we can move on and return Delta to its former glory.

So you think Mr. C E Woolman is spinning in his grave too?

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: AC7E7
Posted 2006-03-24 06:02:08 and read 2904 times.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 148):
If you think management still is in charge, may I suggest you do a little research regarding the US/HP merger...

Agreed. The creditors have set targets for which management must meet. If they do not, its over.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 161):
and I'm still waaay underpaid

Enjoy what you are making now, because if you burn the house down, you'll be making zip.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 162):
Only one interview coming up, next month. For this one, if I get it, I'm gone. Only a few airlines I would go to. Beyond that, if Delta goes under, I am done with flying.

I wish you the best of luck with your upcoming interview.

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: WesternA318
Posted 2006-03-24 06:06:39 and read 2902 times.

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 164):
Agreed. The creditors have set targets for which management must meet. If they do not, its over.

Very true, and from what Ive seen so far, Doug's doing a good job of it.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 162):
Only one interview coming up, next month. For this one, if I get it, I'm gone. Only a few airlines I would go to. Beyond that, if Delta goes under, I am done with flying.

Good luck on your upcoming interview, Bucky. Not to be nosy or anything, but, what are the few airlines you'd go to?

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: NorthstarBoy
Posted 2006-03-25 08:31:22 and read 2801 times.

on the issue of song being integrated vs song disappearing, i'm flying DL (assuming they're still in business) in september to San Juan, i noticed that the flight im on from Atl to san juan is being operated with en ex-song aircraft, so i asked the res agent if i'd still get all those great entertainment options or if they would infact be turned off, (because i assumed that the aircraft were simply being reintegrated back into the fleet, without the song extras) she told me that 49 more aircraft were being upgraded with the song features, that tells me that song is being integrated into Delta.

secondly, without getting involved in the verbal fistfight between OttoPylit and Kaus, i will just ask this to Otto, if you had a choice between two aircraft, identical, one of which the FO had paid for the privilege to sit there, the other is say a military trained pilot, honestly, which aircraft would you take?

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-27 04:14:36 and read 2694 times.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 166):
i will just ask this to Otto, if you had a choice between two aircraft, identical, one of which the FO had paid for the privilege to sit there, the other is say a military trained pilot, honestly, which aircraft would you take?

Which one would I pick if I had a choice? Honestly? Simple; whichever one seemingly had the most experience or best trained to get me there safely. Whether they are a military trained pilot or someone who paid for their training would not matter. Having been in the military and working with military pilots, there are some that I wouldn't even get into a car with, much less an airplane. Yet, I have had a roommate who couldn't get into the military due to medical reasons, paid for his training, is flying for FedEx now, and is one of the best pilots I have ever seen, with safety always his first priority, and not scared to say if he does not feel 100% about something.

So if I had a choice? Whichever person seemed best suited to get me to my destination safely. It would not matter to me if that person was military or paid to get where they are, they made it. They feel qualified. The FAA feels they are qualified. I feel that I have no choice but to trust who the FAA allows to fly a commercial carrier.

Is there really much of a difference, as far as flying capabilities overrall? A military pilot starts out flying a simple airplane such as a T-41(since moved to the T-6 II), then would move to a more complex T-37 Tweet jet(being retired), and then moved to an even more complex T-1 Jayhawk(for tanker and cargo aircraft being used as this example). A civilian pilot would start out in a similar aircraft, like a C-172(same as T-41), moving up to something more complex, such as a Seneca, and then moving onto something even more complex, such as whatever a/c the airline is flying that they are hired by. Both put in time, money, and energy. What they get OUT of that is up to them. There are some civilian pilots I would put my life in their hands, there are some military pilots I wouldn't sit in a parked airplane with, and vice versa. Where they got their training doesn't matter, as long as the FAA see's it fit. But how they use their training and experience does matter, and thats what I would base my safety on.

When you compare the ratio of military to civil pilots, military pilots are just as likely to suffer from vertigo and spatial disorientation and fly into the side of a mountain just as much as a civil pilot would. Fortunately, most military guys have ejection seats! LOL


OttoPylit

Topic: RE: Delta Won't Survive Strike CEO Grinstein Warns
Username: OttoPylit
Posted 2006-03-27 08:43:33 and read 2625 times.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 166):
i will just ask this to Otto, if you had a choice between two aircraft, identical, one of which the FO had paid for the privilege to sit there, the other is say a military trained pilot, honestly, which aircraft would you take?

Oh, one more thing that just occurred to me. Its not the FO I would lay my decision with. That would be the Captain who I would have to trust more.  Wink




OttoPylit


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