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Topic: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: Gokmengs
Posted 2006-03-28 10:27:20 and read 5524 times.

DL has currently 8 777's and 5 on order which I really don't know if they'll be delivered anytime soon.
Being a very frequent DL flyer and seeing how they are expanding Internationally its no secret that they are short on 777's. My question is looking at the other legacys' fleet such as UA and AA, how come DL didn't order more 777's back in the day when they were one of the most profitable airline in the world and definetly had the finances to buy more than what they have right now, and their competitors were ordering 777's like crazy. It would have definetly help their expansion had they have a bigger 777 fleet. I appreciate your replies.

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: DL787932ER
Posted 2006-03-28 10:50:49 and read 5507 times.

My understanding is that back in the days before the pilots finalized their UA+1 contract, they were holding out for some ridiculous money to fly the 772ER. Even in the free-money Ron Allen days, DL realized they couldn't pay their 777 captains $350k/year or whatever was being asked. They actually cancelled or deferred many 777 orders before they finished contract negotiations because of the rate demanded by the pilots.

The special order of 764ERs was to some degree or another a result of these negotiations. DL and CO thought the 772 was too much for their needs, but at least part of that difference for DL was their belief they'd have to pay their flagship pilots an unaffordable wage to fly the triple 7, so they ended up getting the 764. Even though DL 764 pilots make more than the rest of DL's 757/767 pilots, it's still less than the 772 pilots and far less than what DL was afraid they'd end up having to pay for the 772.

DL may very well have had at least 34 772ERs - 8 owned plus 5 on deferred order plus 21 764ERs that may have been 772ERs if the pilots could have agreed on a contract - if things had worked out differently. I'm willing to guess that all parties wish that all ordered 772ERs had been delivered and all 764ERs had actually been 772ERs.

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: DAL767400ER
Posted 2006-03-28 10:58:24 and read 5489 times.

One part was that back then DL was rather cautiuous with ordering 777s, seeing as they planned on using the MD-11s for quite a few more years then they actually did (unfortunately, thank you Mr Mullin!). What also added to the love-hate relation that DL has with the 777 was the high wage demands that DALPA had back then to fly the 777 (and 764 for that matter). The result of those delaying talks between management and pilots was that DL even threatened to not fly the 777 at all, and just dispose of the 2 777s they were already flying, and delivery of planes already being buil by Boeing were delayed indefinitely. But thankfully, an agreement was finally reached (with ridiculous pay increases, but that's a whole different story) and DL got all 777s sitting at Boeing, a total of 5, within 2 weeks during the Christmas season of 1999 (or was that 2000? not 100% sure).
Had all this discussion not happened, DL could already have gotten more 777s prior to 9-11, and would likely have converted a few options for 777s for late deliveries as MD-11 replacements for 06/07 on.
What is also of interest is that DL and MH were to close to an agreement for DL to take MH's 777s, but the wage discussions killed that deal.

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: Gokmengs
Posted 2006-03-28 11:47:51 and read 5457 times.

Thanks for replies guys very intersting indeed.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 2):



Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 1):
My understanding is that back in the days before the pilots finalized their UA+1 contract, they were holding out for some ridiculous money to fly the 772ER. Even in the free-money Ron Allen days, DL realized they couldn't pay their 777 captains $350k/year or whatever was being asked. They actually cancelled or deferred many 777 orders before they finished contract negotiations because of the rate demanded by the pilots.

Thats very interesting and actually its unreal how well the DL pilots were paid back in the day(I still think they are well paid)

Basically if it wasn't for DALPA(I'm sure they are not the only reason but played a major role), DL could have had many 777's which could have helped their financial situation, I wonder if DL had more of an Asia or international presence if they had more 777's.

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: MBJ2000
Posted 2006-03-28 11:50:58 and read 5457 times.

Can someone please explain to me, why would a pilot ask for higher wage if he was to fly a 772 instead of a let's say MD-11? Just curious, what was the motivation?

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: Tercer
Posted 2006-03-28 12:00:41 and read 5441 times.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 777 is a very mission specific aircraft in that you really need to design and develop a market around the airplane. They are not very profitable on medium to short range trips and having a few spares sitting around is really a waste of cash. Basically the longer the stage length the more the aircraft makes so unless an airline has the need for a long range aircraft sticking with the 757/767 would make more sense.

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: Bobnwa
Posted 2006-03-28 14:23:56 and read 5351 times.

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 4):
Can someone please explain to me, why would a pilot ask for higher wage if he was to fly a 772 instead of a let's say MD-11? Just curious, what was the motivation?

Pilots historically want more money whenever a new aircraft is added to the fleet or another airline has negotiated a pay raise. It has been ALPA's plan to keep raising the wage bar as each airline's contract becomes due. That is how the pilot wages for US carriers have reached such high levels in the past. The pilots have pushed the idea that higher payed pilots fly safer than lower paid pilots.

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: SLCUT2777
Posted 2006-03-28 15:19:08 and read 5304 times.

AC had a similar situation with their 777/787 order with Boeing. Much of it as I recall was over training and pay. Their union leadership recommended it, but the rank and file voted against it, and the order was deferred. Perseverance paid off and AC was able to firm their order, and they will soon be flying the 777 later this year. They also will be getting some 787s before the end of 2010. I'm certain that DLs situation with DALPA proved to be some leverage they needed to get this order with Boeing firmed up, and get their pilots union to accept the deal.

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: Pilotaydin
Posted 2006-03-28 15:24:29 and read 5295 times.

I think delta would do well with more 777s, even though the 767 has been keeping the fleet going esp to Europe, the IST flight needs to be a 777 for an airline like Delta, i think it's time to upgrade, or save up and jump to 787 plans

Topic: RE: Why Didn't DL Order More T7's In The Good Old Days
Username: MBJ2000
Posted 2006-03-28 16:59:31 and read 5195 times.

Thanks for the explanation, so it doesn't have to do with the 777 per se, just the usual behaviour when you get a new "job grade" resp. new plane. That pilot union seems (seemed) to be really mighty...

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 6):


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