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Topic: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: United#52
Posted 1999-06-07 15:04:51 and read 1279 times.

There are many choices that United makes that I stand behind completely, including the 2-5-2 rule. I was recently on a United 747-200, and (3-4-3) the seats by the windows looked just like that of a 737! That is the exact thing I don't want to see when I fly a widebody. That is why the 777 with the VERY spacious 2-5-2 is my favorite plane. United could have put in that extra seat for 3-4-3 like some other carriers did (in Asia), but chose to have a roomier plane. That is why United is the best airline, bar none. All of you out there who have had "bad" inflight service experiences with United or have had delays, you just caught United at a bad time. I have had some delays, but I must admit I have never had a crabby flight attendant. All of the supporters of the www.untied.com site and other anti-United people out there, you are really missing out on a great airline. I agree that sometimes a flight attendant can be having a bad day, but there are some United flight attendants, like my mom, who go out of their way to make sure a passenger enjoys their flight and has a good experience. I had the opportunity to see her "in action" on Apr. 24, which was United's Southern Illinois University flydown, where we got to fly a 737-300 from O'Hare to Carbondale to tour the campus and aviation facilities. She was outstanding. I salute the friendly skies, and even though the slogan is now "United is Rising," they will always be the friendly skies.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-07 15:24:32 and read 1277 times.

Okay, you are the united airlines equivlant of Purdue Cadet, except he probably has more aviation experience. I said this to him in the post about Boston London flights and i will say it to you. PLEASE try another airline. You rave on about united being so wonderful, and, Purdue American. Well, Purdue admitts his experience is almost exclusively with american due to the fact his dad works there. I take it, for the same reason, yours is with united. Now, i am going to give you the same advice as i gave him in the other post. Go, and get a staff discounted ticket on BRITISH AIRWAYS or VIRGIN ATLANTIC to london and spend the day there, get an evening departure to arrive in London first thing in the morning. Have a good look around and then get a late evening departure back to the US. Then, you will see what we all keep on complaining about. United isn't bad, nor is American, there just ordinary. Where as these other airlines, or airlines like Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific Bend over backwards to make each flight the best it can be on their budget. Or go for a 1 or 2 day trip to Asia and have a quick shop about and some great food and experience some of the best service in the sky. SIA--- no more needed to be said to those who have experienced it! Like i said before, quality is a relative thing, if you've only flone on a chater airline's cram them em style operation, UAL will seem like hevan. If you've just got off singapore airlines and step onboard a UAL 737, things just don't seem so great. The only way you will really be able to understand this and appriciate it is if you try the others for yourself.

Please please please give it ago, and have a great trip. you never know, you might actually like it. The flights shouldn't cost that much if you are 'non-rev' passengers on standby, my guess is probably about $30.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: MD-11
Posted 1999-06-07 16:00:54 and read 1275 times.

Gee, I wonder if the fact that your mom works at UAL might have something to do with your unrealistic picture that UAL is the best airline. As Lufthansa said, you really ought to try other airlines yourself and then evaluate UAL again.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: Gripen
Posted 1999-06-07 17:01:16 and read 1274 times.

I've got no relatives working at airlines, so I choose the airline I'll fly, and I fly at least twice a year for international flights, and I choose United. Always had good service, can't complain. I have a choice of Varig, Vasp, Transbrasil, American, Continental, TAM and United to fly to the US, and so far, United has been the best one.

I want to try TAM, it's service is said to be unparalleled to any Latin America airline, it reaches a bit towards Virgin Atlantic.

I've tryed other airlines, and so far, United has been my #1 choice.

FMAL, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: A330
Posted 1999-06-07 19:46:56 and read 1274 times.

OK, United is not bad in terms of service. I've flown several times with them and was pleasantly surprised that they served warm meals on a 1.30h flight in Coach.(it was a slice of pizza).
American carriers have revamped their services the last couple of years, while the European ones have made cut-backs. They are now on a more even line.
(AA is bad though)

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: Bush
Posted 1999-06-07 20:04:20 and read 1274 times.

First of all, the seating configuration on the UA 777 is the North American standard. All US airlines, and many other airlines, have a 2-5-2 config. UA is not 'special' in any way when it comes to seat width. If I were to fly United overseas, I would more likely find myself on a 747 as opposed to a 777. So, I would be sitting on those '737' type seats, the kind you yourself said are so awful. Great!

To your point about "everyone who's had a bad experience on United, you caught them at a bad time." Must be a lot of 'bad times' at UA then, guy. United is, as the others put it, a very ordinary airline. There are others that are outstanding, none of which you'll find in North America.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-07 20:29:50 and read 1274 times.

Kudos to Lufthansa!

After living here in Asia for over a year now I -must- second that vote for SIA.
I've flown on them and they are simply in a class all by their own.

They cannot be beaten for the quality of service. One -really- needs to fly in them to understand what they are like.

US carriers simply cannot match the quality of service SIA offers..it's utterly a no-brainer. I've read comments on other forums elsewhere on the Net and have contributed and I cant help but laugh when people crow this way or that way about US carriers but have never tried carriers like SIA, JAL, Virgin, BA.

Overall the quality of US carriers across the Pacific..so-so..nothing really to rave about. Ordinary is -exactly- the feeling.

Sometimes its simply an -Ordeal-.

Earlier this year I had the -priviledge- to fly from Taipei to Singapore aboard one of their new A340s. The service aboard in Economy Class blew away the quality of "service" I had flown last year on NWA's "World Business Class" from TPE-NRT-SEA!!! (G) Just no comparison. (G)

SIA's Economy Class is very relaxing..the service superb, food is plentiful (you dont starve on SIA), the Kris World Entertainment system at every seat, simply marvelous! You dont need to "swipe that credit card" to use it either! No sir, it's all complimentary. The only thing needing a credit card is to call someone with the handset, (hopefully to call the SIA reservationist to book another flight! (G)

Other carriers I -highly- recommend are Malaysian Airline System and DragonAir.

Flew MAS across the Pacific. They were -Excellent-! Seats comfortable in coach, meals plentiful and good, snacks in between, complimentary -everything-.

DragonAir is regionally based at Hong Kong. -Excellent- service, full hot meals in Economy for the -One-hour flight from Kaohsiung to HKG. (Try getting a meal these days on a one hour flight in other places (G) Peanuts and Coke if one is lucky! (G)

To fly on airlines like these though..Is simply in a different league. I dont know how else to describe it..One of the perks to life here in Asia is knowing that when I have to travel, it's on carriers like these. (G)

Regards
MAC_Veteran

Topic: Lufthansa - ID Passes
Username: Purdue Cadet
Posted 1999-06-07 22:41:27 and read 1274 times.

For future reference, Lufthansa, here are actual Industry Discount (ID) fares:

On SIA, AA employees can recieve ID-75 passes, or 75% off of FULL FARE. The full fare coach LAX-SIN is $3793.00, so the ID-75 fare is $948.25 o/w. CHEAP!

KLM is an airline that offers AA emps. ID-90 fares, or 90% off of full fare. The full Y fare on KLM JFK-AMS is $1311.00, for an ID90 of $131.10 o/w. Stand-by. That's just a touch over the $25-30 that you guessed, and your estimate was probably intended to be round trip.

Lufthansa and BA have special fare programs with AA (i.e. passes other than ID-75/ID-90), and that's all that our interline travel guide says. I'd have to go to a CTO to find out the fares on those airlines for trans-atlantic flights.

Topic: Nice That We Have Someone Partial Posting Here...
Username: Nwa Man
Posted 1999-06-07 23:02:50 and read 1276 times.

n/t

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: FLY777UAL
Posted 1999-06-08 07:54:32 and read 1276 times.

Okay...no offense to anyone, but you all are retards if you think that CX and SIA are just 'in a class of their own'. I've done foreign airlines...nothing to write home about...same as UA...just ORDINARY. Granted yes, SIA does have a better in-flight ent. sys, and they both (CX and SIA) have GORGEOUS crews, but the service is THE SAME!!! United has done sooo much in the past few months to upgrade their service in all three classes, especially Economy. New menus, PTV's in YC (coming this fall), new types of UPGRADED service in BC, new seats in BC, FC, and YC, and coming this fall, United First suites (lie-flat beds) in all of UA's 747-400's.

FLY777UAL

Oh yea...pass riders don't fly that cheap internationally...ie: $25...yea right!

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-08 11:50:38 and read 1274 times.

I just have a few comments here..

Why has it taken carriers like UAL -this long- to start treating its passengers with -some- of the amenities being so "rushed in"? It's good to see amenities like those mentioned be worked in, however..

The overall -attitude- is still the same from what many of my colleagues and clients here in Taiwan tell me.

They swear -off- US carriers and stick to SIA, EvaAir, China Airlines, Cathay, JAL/JAA, ANA, MAS, QANTAS and so forth

Heck there's a lawsuit up in Taipei from a group of passengers at NWA over being bumped from their non-smoking seats to a smoking area so the Non-Revs or Crew members could enjoy a non-smoking cabin area. One of their kids is allegic to smoke, guess what happened, kid went into a severe allergic reaction and had to be hospitalized.

The lawsuit is pending and it will be interesting to see what happens.

The whole thing is..This Pompous -Attitude-. I've seen it -many-many times- on US carriers. And yes I do define that as simply -in a class of their own for that as well.

Here's a great comparison: NWA 011/NWA008 a year ago last February. Routing Taipei-NRT-SEA.

Just experience connecting from an NWA Asian based cabin crew (which are quite good and take pride in their work) flight on NWA at NRT to what I deem as "The Skip and Muffy" US based crew brigade that boards for your flight onwards to
the States..Good Grief!

It's was like an aviation themed version of "Entertainment Tonight"! (G) Gag Me! (G)

After departing NRT for SEA, the FAs would be -openly- and -brazenly- commenting about "those awful economy class passengers"...in front of BizClass passengers!

What kind of a statement is that!?

Then a FA (very senior in rank I might add) got angry with the whole ship full of passengers (but obviously aiming it the Y class passengers, those "awful people") and chastised people to sit down on the PA system so they could serve dinner. It was said in the most curt and nasty manner I would have never -thought- about saying in my years in the US Air Force's Military Airlift Command!

I literaly thought I was sitting at a bus-depot flying over the Pacific! (VBG)

The whole concept that is not being understood is, carriers like SIA, CX and so forth have been employing a winning customer service paradigm all along.

I mean look at it, how many times have US carriers had to literally re-invent themselves?

One humorous note when I was disembarking from my DragonAir flight at HKG in August last year, UAL's Chicago-HKG flight arrived. The people streaming onto the escalator and into the train that takes you into the main terminal at CLK looked like they had been thru "World War Twelve"! (G)

No one was happy..not a smile..peopel were visibly angry. Flight attendants were staring out the windows..no eye contact..The people looked -horrendous-. These people looked -worse- off than the 27 hour charter runs on a DC-10 I used to catch to Adana, Turkey from Philadelphia, PA with 5 stops in between! (G)

I looked to my wife and asked her if we looked or felt the same way after arriving on a 14 hour flight from LAX to Taipei on MAS..She looked at me and smiled..."No" with a big grin. (G) I rest my case. (G)

20-30 years ago, yes, the US carriers were excellent for comfort, amenity and value. Today however, It reminds me of nothing more than a Flying version of a -Bus Company-.

Asian Carriers like those mentioned here capture a spirit of service that reminds me of those great years of travel. Other fine carriers I've heard include Emirates, which is supposed to be an incredible experience aloft. I'd love to try them out.

And as for the Frequent Flier Program "hook"..I dont buy that either. I dont base my travel upon that type of "scam". I base my choice of carriers on the quality of service.

Try SIA...Try MAS..Try JAL..Try ANA...Try these carriers out and you will see a difference. Then you will understand what it's all about.

United introduced me to flying many-many years ago in the era of FriendShip DC-8s. The quality -then- was like SIA of Today..and yes that was economy class.

I truly judge a carrier on it's economy class product, if a carrier does every little nefarious game to skimp there, "screwge" there, then forget it. Just Forget it.. One flight and that's it.

If your carrier invests in it's Economy Class product, and improves it's attitude, then you'll get my return business and I'll look forward to buying the Biz Class and First Class product as well. I'll also recommend your carrier to others, word of mouth truly still works also.

One final note, my mother will be flying to Taiwan in early next year. Guess what carrier I have her booked on.

SIA (G)

Regards
MAC_Veteran

Topic: Sour Grapes
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-08 12:19:02 and read 1277 times.

Seems like just a few have sour grapes that their biggest and favourite doesn't do 'everything' best. Really, i don't know why i even bother repond but i will anyway. Okay, as for ID passes, well, i know people in this part of the world that are on much better conditions - sorry if it cost your more than they get but I suppose its all to do with position in the company too. Obviously FAs don't get the same as management.

Just because you are in love with UAL doesn't mean anything, and certainly doesn't warrant labels such as 'retards'. I am sure that there are those whom have disabilities here, that would be offended.

Some of you need to pay the price I have to pay. Full price. no ID discounts. Even if it is 25% of the fare for you, thats still cheap compared with what i pay. Don't get me wrong, i am not complaining, i always gladly pay for flight. But, if you get this, you've got it good so take advantage of it. And, lastely, i must Defend Singapore Airlines. I will defend singapore airlines till i turn blue if needed, as long at they continue 'leading' the world and setting the benchmark as they often do. I am not supporting the idiots at www.united.com either, as they are clearly not productive if their concerns are genuine. If you have flone Singapore, and, are not a stubburn person who refuses to accept the reality in front of them, you will, and i repeate, will find see the difference. One reason is the lower cost of employment in the asian region means that these airlines can simply afford more FAs for a start. More FAs, means more personal service. The other thing, is, that Asian airlines tend to only keep FAs for a few years, typically about 3. So, these people are young and fresh and have a high drive for their job. They have not grown tied of dealing with unruly or rude passengers or sexits pigs who think all FAs want to sleep with them, and all the other not so pleasent realities that FAs face. The result is a more genuine warm straight from the heart type of service. (now thats sounds fimiliar?????) Its not really good for the young FA who has set her/his heart on that job for the long term, but, most only do if for a few years so they can travel, and then, 'settle down' so to speak.

And folks, i am not saying your mum's do a bad job, just, that numbers are not on their side. If anything, this means your mum's job's are more demanding.

When united treats me like SIA does, i will stand beside you all and praise them. The problem is, that when united finally maneges to equal SIAs current service, SIA will have moved much futher forward also. Sort of a game of keeping up with SIA. Its going to stay that way too, becaues, SIAs customers(in the asia pacific region, excluding North America) are willing and quite used to paying much higher prices than people, in north America. Its a simple matter of ecconomics then. If you've got more money to spend on your passengers, well, you can offer them more. The same can be said for BA, etc. On its international 747s Ansett gives its customers 38 inch seat pitch in economy. All economy too, every seat. No PTVs yet, but, please don't tell me, that this service is matched(by UAL) because its not.( i think they are waiting for their 744s for Ptv) That is why on the LAX-SYD route, QF has a big lead on anybody else. That is Why on routes between the US and London, BA takes the cake and Virgin comes in not that far behind in terms of passengers carried. Look, on all the routes contested, when it comes down to UAL vs BA, VS, QF, Cx, SQ, which carriers are clearly chosen by more of the traveling public????? (and before somebody mentions slot restrictions etc, limmiting UALs capacity, lets just look at London for an example, [all airports]. BA is clearly the publics first choice and VS second. Then you can start looking at all of the other carriers that fly between the US and London on all other flights)

Basically, i don't need to argue the case, numbers talk for themselves. If you go further and examin the nature of the passengers traveling, ie business or pleasure etc, it speaks even louder. Nothing more to say!

Topic: RE: Sour Grapes
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-08 16:11:42 and read 1274 times.

Exactly -on the money- Lufthansa!

Man I'm enjoying this! (G)

The whole thing I get a laugh out of conversations like this, as I've seen elsewhere on the Net, are those who have the buddy-passes or Non-Rev perks telling everyone their airline is the "best".

I laugh it off of course..nothing wrong with pride, but one really needs to sit back and understand what it's like to pay full-fare for a product.

Airline employees who get perks, First/BizClass upgrades, priority handling on baggage, glasses of champagne waiting for takeoff..All of that being said..well then -of course- one is going to view their carrier as Numero Uno! (VBG)

I'm ex- USAF, Ex- MAC..the worlds -Biggest Airlift Carrier-.

I got to fly for 10$ on military "hops", as well as it being my -job- working in the Air Transportation/Air Cargo career field. I also worked in the Records and Reports area in that career field. I got the full exposure to just how much a MAC air mission truly costs the US taxpayer. You learned that those $10 tickets werent some windfall..someone was paying the -full load- for it somewhere..and in glaring terms all one needed to do was consult the airlift tariff rate books that we used, along with the costs asessed with the Airlift Services Industrial Fund or "ASIF".

Which brings me here..When a passenger is paying full fare, or even a discount fare for a ticket..one would expect a consistent level and quality of service.

There is a serious feeling of alienation that some airline employees dont understand in this "disconnection" with the flying public. It makes some airline employees look incredibly selfish and I was quite conscious of that in my former career.

Let me begin here with this caveat: Those who have the perks of an Airline career, Good on You! You are lucky.

I was lucky in the priviledges I had, sure I love MAC, thought they were great.

BUT- I would however suggest a -reality check- is in order occasionally.

For those here who are airline employees, or related to one who can get passes and so forth, I venture you to walk with me for a second. This is coming from a well seasoned military Air Transporter and I know the "routine" quite well.

-Why not buy your ticket the way everyone else does?
-Make the reservationlike everyone else does?
-Get the run around with fares this way and that way, "playing by the rules from hell"?
-When you get to the airport, -dont- whip out your ID card or badge?
(NOPE...if you do that..the experiment is forfeited. This is a test here.)
-Just pretend you arent in one way shape or form an airline employee or connected to one. None of that.
-Check in your bags, get the hassle about baggage limits, get the hassel with seat assignments..all of that.

--Remember now..not one word about who you are or who you work for!! (G)--
(This is going to be quite something to see done. (G)

-Get thru the whole trip..without a single word or hint that you are an airline employee.-

-Try it.- (G)

Then I sincerely think you will have a totally different picture of your carrier or others.

I believe its a worthy experiment to try, and it will open eyes.

Then you will understand what John Q. Passenger or Elizabeth Q. Passenger has to put up with.

-You will come away with a different picture of the whole thing.-

I know it because that is quite similar to how MAC Ops would be graded and judged in Standardization and Evaluation exams.

You want to see something "nuclear", go thru something like that. (G)

It exposed the -real- picture in an unbiased manner.

The one thing it did was keep people on their toes, but also instill a common level of morale, professionalism and standards that were all understood and had to be followed. I found it to be a successful tool to keep a check on quality and encourage something similar to that in the civilian sector. The one thing it rooted out -dammn quick- were bad attitudes. A sure fire way to end a career in MAC was a Bad attitude.


Regards
MAC_Veteran

Topic: Difference In Fares == Difference In Service?
Username: CV880
Posted 1999-06-08 16:14:51 and read 1274 times.


There is much talk about difference in service levels between NW and Asian carriers, and I am willing to believe that, in general one is going to be more pampered on SIA, Thai etc. But do these carriers charge the same as NW for an economy ticket? I knew a student from Singapore who loved his national carrier but usually opted for a US carrier for his trips home because he got a relative bargain, and Thais have echoed the same thing about 'their expensive flag carrier.'

I am, in general, not a big fan of Northwest, but I do know an FA who does US-TYO regularly. She says that NW gets a lot of refugee traffic, and while working for an international carrier requires some 'cultural understanding', on more than one occasion these individuals have defecated in the aisleways, or if they make it to the washroom, leave a horrible and unsanitary condition. I can only speculate that on account of fare structure, NW ends up with a lot of this.

Of course, this is an extreme, but she talks quite frequently of passengers who do not have any idea of 'how to behave on an aircraft', and one has to speculate that this group may be culled from low-fare paying passengers who could not afford a fancier airline.

Topic: RE: Difference In Fares == Difference In Service?
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-08 18:42:21 and read 1275 times.

Hi There CV880
(nice airplane BTW (G)

Here in Asia airfares and ticketing is quite the opposite of what is the common norm in the US.

In the US, people can get good deals directly from the airlines..e-tickets, tickets sent by mail, or at a ticket counter, or via travel agent. Etc.

Here in Asia, the -Travel Agent- or -Tour Agency- is the primary source for ticketing and deal-making. In fact, try calling EVA Air or China Airlines to make a reservation..you -cant-. They will refer you to a sales office who will put you in touch with a travel agent that sells tickets! IT''s totally the opposite of the US ticketing model.

Here in Taiwan, the Airline companies sell "blocks" of tickets to travel agents and tour operators at a competitive rate that is negotiated individually. That's why. This is for all fare levels also from what I'm aware of.

Granted you can buy a ticket from CAL or EVA Air..at the airport though..really different.

With this Travel Agency negotiated method of travel it makes the air fares quite competitive amongst agents. They are free to compete on how and what their prices are...which result in quite good deals from my experiences.

It's like commodities trading in a way..(G)

In all actuality, the best deal in Asia is to buy a 3-4 night stay in say Singapore, with hotel (5 Star rated) included.

My trip on SIA to Singapore with 4 days, 4 nights ran me around $NT15000, or around $USD 480. Hotel was the Mandarin Hotel Singapore (Incredible place I might add) and it included an -incredible- breakfast buffet I might add. It was top notch. SIA offices were located on the first floor of the hotel also. It's located right in the heart of the Orchard Blvd (Street?) hotel/shopping district of Singapore.

So..if some planning is given to air fare ahead of time (this trip was booked about a week out) the costs for just airfare alone are quite good and very competitive with US carriers.

Malaysia Airlines quoted me a -last minute- fare of $580 one-way from LAX to TPE last year..I bought it one day prior.

They made a mistake with that when it should have been $670 or $720?..But they said that was fine..they sold me the ticket at $580 one way with no restrictions. Try that with NW or UA (G)

MAS's staff was very accomodating and everything was smooth as ever.

The "high price of Thai" or type comments also may stem from the horrible depreciation of the Thai baht currency also..so keep that in mind when comparing carriers. The Asian "meltdown" affected everything last year, which meant currencies went nuts with depreciation/devaluation and of course things will get expensive.

BTW, Some of the best travel deals can be had at of all places, Bangkok, Thailand also. The ticket "bucket shops" are well known for cut-rate pricing.

The US carriers, yes I can imagine they get their share of "Refugee traffic" as you say. The type of ultra-lowfare traffic that is designed to capture basically to fill the plane with -any fare level- passenger. That way NWA or UAL can report higher utilization levels, seat mileage and so forth to keep the bean counters happy.

In the same token as I spoke of before about travel agencies being the primary point where tickets are bought, US carriers compete vigorously to get their planes full, no matter what the fare level. Yes indeed, US carriers sometimes undercut the Asian carriers in some fare classes..and get quite a business in it.

But overall, for the traveler who plans ahead and is in the same "neck of the woods" for price affordability...Asian carriers are just as competitive and In my view, the far -better- option.

From my experiences, Asian carriers varied from a few hundred dollars less...to a few dollars..to around $150-200 dollars more. It's all relative. In my view, if having to pay a slightly higher price, the extra expense is -well- worth it.

Some are focused on cost-cost-cost to the point of ad-nauseaum, while others want better quality and willing to pay a little extra for it..but in many times, these carriers are priced the same way, if not -better than- some of the US Carriers.

Here's an example referring to the above mentioned LAX-TPE flight on MAS:

MAS Last minute fares versus Last Minute fares on NWA and UAL from LAX were -demonstrably different-. NWA and UAL were in the $1100 one way price range..while MAS was in the $580-$720 range.

After my trip on Northwest I was wiped out for several days. (thought I was going to need a chiropractor my back was out so bad on the way to TPE)

Their NRT hub routing -everything- thru it, incredible madhouse/chaos there..TPE was no better with -one- agent to handle all the NWA transfer passengers on the outbound from TPE-NRT-SEA..Almost missed the flight because of that....the crappo &$%*#^ service from NRT-SEA..in World Biz Class mind you..

NRT is a -nightmare- connecting at..passengers getting bumped and so forth..it's a cramped awful mess there! (G) Then putting up with US Customs and Immigration at SEA who forced us to sit on the plane for 20 minutes because were were -20 munutes too early-! Give me a break! (G) After that it sure seemed like a "fitting Welcome Home!" (G)

I was out of commission for around 2 days afterwards..In my line of work thats just too much and I wont repeat the experience. I'll stick with carriers like MAS and SIA..I'm sticking with them and others like them..the quality is just -that good-. There really is a difference that affects productivity for the passenger and I noticed it in a glaring manner (G). The more pleasant experience really made a difference.

I was up and at it the morning I arrived here..refreshed. I have -never- had that experience on US carriers flying Trans Pacific though...absolutely..-never-.

Regards

MAC_Veteran

Topic: RE: Sour Grapes
Username: FLY777UAL
Posted 1999-06-08 19:59:43 and read 1274 times.

Okay....

#1...Employees DO NOT get access to the lounges...ie: NO CHAMPAGNE!!!
#2...Do NOT lecture me about buying a full fare ticket, and then going through all of that other stuff...I HAVE DONE THAT on both CX (LAX-HKG) and SIA (LAX-TPE-SIN)...the service in Economy...NO DIFFERENT...no better...no worse.

As to someone else's comments about 'how it takes UA so long to compete with everyone' or something like that, just keep in mind that UA is a relative newcomer to the international market. When UA entered the international market, the service and other aspects of the flight were exactly the same as the other airlines, however, in the past year and a half, other airlines have started to revamp every aspect of travel, and what did UA do??? they did exactly the same, with the same amentities, same food, and same seats.

FLY777UAL

Topic: RE: Sour Grapes
Username: FLY777UAL
Posted 1999-06-08 20:46:57 and read 1274 times.

Really? I don't see where my word all of a sudden became "God's Word"

FLY777UAL

Topic: RE: Sour Grapes
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-08 21:14:25 and read 1275 times.


FLY777UAL wrote:
-------------------------------
Okay....

>>#1...Employees DO NOT get access to the lounges...ie: NO CHAMPAGNE!!!

Who said anything about lounges here..you are! I'm talking about on the plane..of course if you want to bring up the lounges lets discuss that! (G)
What type of priviledges do you get with regards to the lounges?

>#2...Do NOT lecture me about buying a full fare ticket, and then going through >all of that other stuff...I HAVE DONE THAT on both CX (LAX-HKG) and SIA >(LAX-TPE-SIN)...the service in Economy...NO DIFFERENT...no better...no worse.

Lecture? Or is it more of this Balderdash Nonsense of "UAL is 'duh best" (with kazoo's and tin horns playing in the background..(VBG)

Man that's funny to contemplate there..(G)

I've paid full fare before..Have you? I only quoted a -few- instances here..where I got a good deal..Have you paid anything higher than a $100 for your "Dream Flights on UAL"? (G)

I'd love to sit there in my First Class seat only "paying" a fraction of the full ticket price of $2200..must be nice! (G)

You have -got to be kidding here-! Good Grief!!!! No different! I have got to see UAL then..my God! What has happened! (G)

Comparing SIA's much acclaimed service to I hate saying this..but a horrid Stealth painted CattleCar!? (-Do What!?-)

(ROFL!!!)

>As to someone else's comments about 'how it takes UA so long to compete >with everyone' or something like that, just keep in mind that UA is a relative >newcomer to the international market.

1986 is when they bought PAA's Pacific routes and even before that, I believe 1983, when they began their own TransPacific routes from SEA to NRT. Newcomer? Almost 20 years as a newcomer? (Huh? (G)

Even before that they had experience flying sched and charters to Mexico. Come on here..newcomer by pet**ter! (G)

>When UA entered the international market, the service and other aspects of >the flight were exactly the same as the other airlines

Good Grief Again!!!
How can you be -serious- here!!

SIA has been garnering award after award probably longer than you were ever alive (G) and to say that UAL's service was on a par with carriers like SIA!!?
Come On! (G)

Consult Conde'Nast Travel Magazine's awards for the last 20 years and see who has been consistently ranked amongst the top...SIA.

Man alive this is getting utterly -comical- here. (G)

>, however, in the past >year and a half, other airlines have started to revamp every aspect of travel, >and what did UA do??? they did exactly the same, with the same amentities, >same food, and same seats.

And it seems UAL (like most US carriers which seem to enjoy cr*pping on Economy class passengers in my view) only joined the parade of revamping their service once they realized their bread and butter (Economy Class passengers) were being offered far better products on -quality carriers- like SIA, Cathay, MAS, etc. Whoa..Panic Cycle now.

US carriers are always in this "cheap-skate..then panic mode", going from offering "SkyDeli" bags (How -cheap- can we get?..and without sandwiches in them!) to little screwball games with carry-on bag sizers at security checkpoints (pioneered by UAL I believe) because they are too -cheap- to revamp their interior!

One reason these people carryon too much to begin with is the way baggage gets lost or broken into because US airline companies contract out baggage work at $5 an hour!..Boy..Manhattan Project or Apollo Moon Mission Quality wage scale there eh? With a high tax base to boot! (G)

You think baggage workers are going to care about a piece of baggage when they are making that?

Of course not...

Rocket Science Time..so what do people do? Throw it out the door at 37000 feet? Call UPS? No..They carry it with them because it might not get there..or be pilfered..thanks to the CheapSkate operating model these airlines -love- to employ.

Instead of paying people at a decent wage and getting quality, they hire low to mediocre quality at low wage and just fudge it along..Turnover rate at these -sweatshops- is enormous!

And believe me I've seen it. The contractor at LAS for DL pays $6 an hour to start..So let me pack my new Nikon camera in my bag, some nice clothes, some shoes, souvenirs.. and expect to see it when I get to Newark! (ROFL!)..

It'll wind up in a pawn shop in North Las Vegas so someone can go gambling from the proceeds before the damn airplane is an hour out of LAS! (VBG)

This whole thing though...it torques off passengers..Then we can get into little games like the anti-competitive practices at hubs like DEN and elsewhere..Oh yes indeed!

Ask anyone at Frontier what they think of UAL (G).

Have you ever tried to figure out why Air Rage is happening?

Maybe one factor in it is due to the -cheap*ssed- manner some of these carriers have become?

Why is it that carriers like SIA dont have these unbelievable bouts of Air rage
(or reported?..hmm?..Maybe because they've been practicing a good customer service package for many years?..maybe because they take their image seriously and in Asia if you "lose face" guess what..it takes a milennia to get it back..and believe me..that's serious here. (Duh!)

The one primary reason for all of this BS?
The short-term focus on the investor. Quick Money.

-Not- the customer and product. It's totally skewed!
Look at it from that point of view.

That is one of the paramount differences I've noticed with US carriers.
The attitude I detect amongst US carriers is this. "Da Investor is Da King"

As a result, They dont give a flying -rip- about the passenger, nor product! Not a rip! Especially the economy class passenger. The passenger be dammned!..why who are they?

I've detected that nasty attitude and it's there..and one reason I would rather fly on Soviet-Era Aeroflot than subject myself to the -degrading- and -dehumanizing- experience US carriers can be!

Why those "awful" economy class passengers..who are they?
..The people that are paying -your freight-.

Regards

MAC_Veteran

Topic: RE: Sour Grapes
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-08 21:38:50 and read 1275 times.

Lets Be realistic shall we?

#2...Do NOT lecture me about buying a full fare ticket, and then going through all of that other stuff...I HAVE DONE THAT on both CX (LAX-HKG) and SIA (LAX-TPE-SIN)...the service in Economy...NO DIFFERENT...no better...no worse.

I don't believe you!!!!!! I do not believe you have flone SIA or you wouldn't say that. Anybody who has flone SIA knows, and, believe me, you obviously don't know. Oh, and its not the last year and a half carriers have been 'upgrading' their service - SIA has been doing it since 1972. I flew in a 744 in 1994 and it had personal tvs. but the krisworld system is really just the smallest bit of SIA service. And those comments somebody else made about the 'troubles' NW flight attendents seem to find with economy passengers further supports the arguement about their 'attitudes'. Its not a 'recent' thing in the last year and a half. And, like i said before, SIA, and others, do not 'remain static' - right as we speak they are constantly bettering themselves. I believe the latest improvement in doubly headsets in all classes - the first in the sky.



Topic: RE: Sour Grapes
Username: FLY777UAL
Posted 1999-06-08 22:44:57 and read 1274 times.

Lounges:
If you had read closer to what I wrote: (employees do NOT get access to the lounges) then maybe your lounge question wouldn't be needed.

Newcomer-
UA is a very relative newcomer to the International Market when you look and see how long the other airlines have been operating over the Pacific. Let's see...NW started when...the 40's?? UA started when....the 80's??? hmm.... "Even before that they had experience flying sched and charters to Mexico. Come on here..newcomer by pet**ter! (G) " this has nothing to do with the market that I was assuming we were talking about...THE PACIFIC. What's the point of talking about Mexico when everyone knows that service on those routes are TOTALLY different than the Pacific routes???

"Good Grief Again!!! How can you be -serious- here!!" (in RE: to aspects of flight)...um...actually, if you go back and look through all the brochures that SIA and UA produced back when UA came to the Pacific, you'd see that the services were exactly the same.

" And it seems UAL (like most US carriers which seem to enjoy cr*pping on Economy class passengers in my view) only joined the parade of revamping their service once they realized their bread and butter (Economy Class passengers) were being offered far better products on -quality carriers- like SIA, Cathay, MAS, etc. Whoa..Panic Cycle now." No...actually, while CX and SIA were introducing their new upgraded Economy Class, UA was in the final design process of theirs...the same seats from the 777 (from **1995**), etc. The only reason that UA didn't install PTV's was because they were not happy with the supplier of the PTV's on the 777 (GEC Marconi), and UA was exploring other options.

"carry-on bag sizers at security checkpoints (pioneered by UAL I believe) because they are too -cheap- to revamp their interior!" Oh really...is that why UA has already been installing all new overhead bins on the planes???

"One reason these people carryon too much to begin with is the way baggage gets lost or broken into because US airline companies contract out baggage work at $5 an hour!" Here, let me rephrase that for you, 'One reason these people carry on too much to begin with is because no one enforces the two carryon limit. Why should they stand in the same LONG lines that SIA and CX have in order to check one extra bag?'

" No..They carry it with them because it might not get there..or be pilfered..thanks to the CheapSkate operating model these airlines -love- to employ. Instead of paying people at a decent wage and getting quality, they hire low to mediocre quality at low wage and just fudge it along..Turnover rate at these -sweatshops- is enormous!" Gee, I'm really sorry that you feel that way about rampers, and to the rampers on this forum, I appologize for MAC_Veteran. What are they supposed to do if they can't finish high school, or get into college?? Sit on their duffs, and collect welfare?? I'm glad that they're out there...putting sweat, muscle, and PRIDE into the jobs that they do....pretty well, too.

"This whole thing though...it torques off passengers..Then we can get into little games like the anti-competitive practices at hubs like DEN and elsewhere..Oh yes indeed!" Oh, yes indeed!! I am sure that everyone just LOVES flying through an airline's hub...NRT, HKG, SIN, KUL, SYD. Ya know...you're right...it is just SOO much fun to play those "little games"!!!

"Ask anyone at Frontier what they think of UAL" Ask anyone at Pro Air what they think of NW. Ask anyone at Spirit what they think of NW. Ask anyone at Vanguard what they think of NW, AA, etc. Ask anyone at Kiwi what they think of Continental. Ask anyone at National Airlines what they think of America West.

"Have you ever tried to figure out why Air Rage is happening?" Yea...it's called "BEING DRUNK".

"Why is it that carriers like SIA dont have these unbelievable bouts of Air rage (or reported?..hmm?..Maybe because they've been practicing a good customer service package for many years?" Or maybe...just maybe....the nature of the people they fly is such that they don't get that! Have you ever seen a rude Japanese person? Or a rude person from Singapore? How about a drunk person on a SIA flight?

"The one primary reason for all of this BS? The short-term focus on the investor. Quick Money. -Not- the customer and product. It's totally skewed! Look at it from that point of view." Oh really? Is that why UA has dropped summer prices by 25%, yet is improving both international and domestic service at the same time?

"As a result, They dont give a flying -rip- about the passenger, nor product! Not a rip! Especially the economy class passenger. The passenger be dammned!..why who are they?
Why those "awful" economy class passengers..who are they? " Oh...thanks for clearing that up! So that's why Economy on UA is full! Ya know, my mom works in Economy quite a bit over the Pacific, and her attitude, and the attitude of the other FA's is that everybody on the plane in EQUAL, whether they be in FC or in YC. They will go OUT OF THEIR WAY to accomodate any special requests, whether it be a special meal not ordered in advance, the FA's will make that special meal out of FC and BC food components. Aged Port or Dom Perignon for the YC passenger? No problem...let me go up to FC and get that for you. Just the other day on her KIX flight, someone in YC requested chocolate...the only chocolate left on board was the Godiva in FC...no prob! Oh...an ice cream sundae for the kids in the back? no prob! Let me make the sundae up from FC and come back and surprise the kids with it!

"..The people that are paying -your freight-." ( talking about the "awful" YC passengers)
Yea...they are paying our freight....they're paying for my computer right now, and my internet, and I thank them dearly. They are the bread and butter of UA, and currently they are being shown that they are just as important as BC and FC pax. Take a flight on UA some day SOON....and THEN come back and tell me that UA is a horrible airline.

FLY777UAL









Topic: RE: Sour Grapes
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-09 07:40:41 and read 1278 times.



FLY777UAL wrote:
-------------------------------
Lounges:
If you had read closer to what I wrote: (employees do NOT get access to the lounges) then maybe your lounge question wouldn't be needed.

HAHAHAHA..but -you- yes -you- were the one who brought up lounges to begine with! Something about lounges that is in the "thought pattern" here? Guily concsience maybe? (G)


Newcomer-
UA is a very relative newcomer to the International Market when you look and see how long the other airlines have been operating over the Pacific. Let's see...NW started when...the 40's?? UA started when....the 80's??? hmm.... "Even before that they had experience flying sched and charters to Mexico. Come on here..newcomer by pet**ter! (G) " this has nothing to do with the market that I was assuming we were talking about...THE PACIFIC. What's the point of talking about Mexico when everyone knows that service on those routes are TOTALLY different than the Pacific routes???


"Good Grief Again!!! How can you be -serious- here!!" (in RE: to aspects of flight)...um...actually, if you go back and look through all the brochures that SIA and UA produced back when UA came to the Pacific, you'd see that the services were exactly the same.


My GOD!..You have got to be kidding me here!!
You are comparing UAL's service versus SIA's -based upon pictures taken- in magazines!

Do What!! (LOL!!!)


" And it seems UAL (like most US carriers which seem to enjoy cr*pping on Economy class passengers in my view) only joined the parade of revamping their service once they realized their bread and butter (Economy Class passengers) were being offered far better products on -quality carriers- like SIA, Cathay, MAS, etc. Whoa..Panic Cycle now." No...actually, while CX and SIA were introducing their new upgraded Economy Class, UA was in the final design process of theirs...the same seats from the 777 (from **1995**), etc. The only reason that UA didn't install PTV's was because they were not happy with the supplier of the PTV's on the 777 (GEC Marconi), and UA was exploring other options.


Another oops..but hey it happens right? (G) SIA has had the PTVs on their aircraft, to include, the 747-400, A340 and 777 for a while now...quite a while.

"carry-on bag sizers at security checkpoints (pioneered by UAL I believe) because they are too -cheap- to revamp their interior!" Oh really...is that why UA has already been installing all new overhead bins on the planes???

Only revamping their airplanes -now-..and I stress -now-. Again..another "Reactive mode" that the WonderBoys couldnt figure out a few years ago. It was too much on the brain capacity to figure out that bigger overhead bins might dammn well be a good idea!..Whoa,...Rocket Science here! (BG)


"One reason these people carryon too much to begin with is the way baggage gets lost or broken into because US airline companies contract out baggage work at $5 an hour!"

Here, let me rephrase that for you, 'One reason these people carry on too much to begin with is because no one enforces the two carryon limit.

Sounds like a management and personnel problem doesnt it then?
What kind of supervision is that?

At most carriers they will let you know right at the ticket counter if you have too much baggage...I'm sorry...that is carriers out here in Asia..they do that..(G)


Why should they stand in the same LONG lines that SIA and CX have in order to check one extra bag?'

Why cant the ticket agent ask a question that I've seen here in Asia: Contemplate this:

Sir, How many bags to check? How many are you carrying on? We have a 2 bag limit for carryon bags, if you'd like to check more bags this is the best time for it? (Duh!?)


" No..They carry it with them because it might not get there..or be pilfered..thanks to the CheapSkate operating model these airlines -love- to employ. Instead of paying people at a decent wage and getting quality, they hire low to mediocre quality at low wage and just fudge it along..Turnover rate at these -sweatshops- is enormous!"


Gee, I'm really sorry that you feel that way about rampers, and to the rampers on this forum, I appologize for MAC_Veteran. What are they supposed to do if they can't finish high school, or get into college?? Sit on their duffs, and collect welfare?? I'm glad that they're out there...putting sweat, muscle, and PRIDE into the jobs that they do....pretty well, too.


First off dont apologize for me -Hero-! (G) None needed here. The fact is you are failing to see the raw economics in this. I'm a former Supervisor who worked in that same type of work environment and I know full well what happens in the civilian environment if you hire people at a low wage. You get morale problems. This transcends over to quality of work. If you think you understand economics and ;labor practices here, translating to type and quality of work done, then you need to seriously look close at ramp operations from one carrier to another, to a contractor and see what the morale levels are like. I do not see high motivation coming from a low paid workforce. It's a no-brainer. You pay people better, they'll do qualty work, you pay them squat and run them into the ground, they wont care what happens.

For Heavens sakes..havent you seen the 20/20 expose on stolen luggage at MIA? Man..Blinded..(G)

And as for this Robin Hood type of ingratition you offer in your non-answer, the fact is this, this is being dictated by the airline management in their hiring practices. Low Wgae and Low Quality/High Stress Go hand in Hand. If you treat people well pay people well, guess what..You then have Higher morale, and then guess what...you'll get the job done right..all the time!

I've gone thru Leadership Schools and Academies that teach this stuff as well as practicing it on the FLight Line...so dont tell me you understand the concepts of flightline operations and management better than I, or the -very real- labor conditions that exist at airlines and their contractors everywhere...particularly in the USA which loves it's cheap labor and high stress.

"This whole thing though...it torques off passengers..Then we can get into little games like the anti-competitive practices at hubs like DEN and elsewhere..Oh yes indeed!" Oh, yes indeed!! I am sure that everyone just LOVES flying through an airline's hub...NRT, HKG, SIN, KUL, SYD. Ya know...you're right...it is just SOO much fun to play those "little games"!!!

Hey have you really been to SIN then?
Changi Airport is a wonderful place to connect thru..tell me not? (G)

"Ask anyone at Frontier what they think of UAL" Ask anyone at Pro Air what they think of NW. Ask anyone at Spirit what they think of NW. Ask anyone at Vanguard what they think of NW, AA, etc. Ask anyone at Kiwi what they think of Continental. Ask anyone at National Airlines what they think of America West.


"Have you ever tried to figure out why Air Rage is happening?" Yea...it's called "BEING DRUNK".

That's the blanket answer isnt it?

For everything..even though your airline or others similar to it in "concept" do things that utterly torque people off...Why of course not..Never look at the fact that airlines have been cramming more and more of those nasty SlimLine seats into their planes. WHen you pack too many people together in a flying tin-can dont you think there are going to be some problems? Huh?

It's always the Passengers Fault! Right!?

Boy..I'd really want -you- as a F/A on a flight..(G)

"Why is it that carriers like SIA dont have these unbelievable bouts of Air rage (or reported?..hmm?..Maybe because they've been practicing a good customer service package for many years?" Or maybe...just maybe....the nature of the people they fly is such that they don't get that! Have you ever seen a rude Japanese person? Or a rude person from Singapore? How about a drunk person on a SIA flight?

I have yet to hear of the problems US carriers have with air rage. I am sure it happens on occasion, but in no where near the leagues the US carriers get it.
Wanna know why? The Cheapo Attitude to the Economy Class passeenger.

On fine air carriers like SIA, everyone is given a consistent level of service. On UAL, it seems that the only passenger that "matters" is the First or Biz Class passenger. I've seen that on other US carriers like NWA also.

They play this little "onboard culture war" and play it up quite a lot. I've noticed it. Whereas SIA maintains a classier level of service for all on the plane, without resorting to this "You want better service Pal..go sit up front" mentality that US carriers love to play....I've seen and heard that too!!!! (LOL!)


"The one primary reason for all of this BS? The short-term focus on the investor. Quick Money. -Not- the customer and product. It's totally skewed! Look at it from that point of view."

Oh really? Is that why UA has dropped summer prices by 25%, yet is improving both international and domestic service at the same time?

Instead of focusing on a consistent level of cabin service, UAL thinks it's a big version of Southwest it seems..I love SW dont get me wrong, here's another question. Why is it that carriers like UAL skimp on service, call themselves a "full service carrier" yet they feel threatened by carriers a fraction their size, then they turn the -whole operation- into a CattleCar service!?

Why?

I've noticed that.

Why does UAL and companies like it set up "Shuttle (or is it Cattle? (G) by United" to supposedly "compete" with this "awful low fare threat"...but in reality, the whole dammned airline becomes "Shuttle By United" .

It's a joke!


"As a result, They dont give a flying -rip- about the passenger, nor product! Not a rip! Especially the economy class passenger. The passenger be dammned!..why who are they?
Why those "awful" economy class passengers..who are they? " Oh...thanks for clearing that up! So that's why Economy on UA is full! Ya know, my mom works in Economy quite a bit over the Pacific, and her attitude, and the attitude of the other FA's is that everybody on the plane in EQUAL, whether they be in FC or in YC. They will go OUT OF THEIR WAY to accomodate any special requests,
whether it be a special meal not ordered in advance, the FA's will make that special meal out of FC and BC food components. Aged Port or Dom Perignon for the YC passenger?


Do you know that on SIA, they have their own brand of Charles Heidseick Brut Champagne -just for Economy Class passengers-?

Did you know that...and it comes around..plentifully I might add..several times inflight...complete with Fine wines, Singapore's famous Tiger Beer...

And no...none of that EagleEye mentality watching the Economy Class "peasants" consume their beverages either..like I've seen on NWA and UAL...that paranoid mentality of an Economy Class Passenger with that "bomb in his hand" called a drink..none of that nasty attitude on SIA..you are treated like an adult on them..not a 5 year old.

Oh yes, after dinner, Ice Cream bars..Then turn on KrisWorld listening thru your Stereo headphones (Sony BTW) for Economy class passengers..over 60 channels of entertainment in audio and video. Plus Nintendo Games...

See..you just dont get it..on SIA.all of that "Special Request" stuff you so glowingly like to take credit for is already put in practice in the standard economy class of SIA!! (LOL!)

Still dont get it! (G) I have a feeling this is going to be an impossible thing to get across to you. (G)

No problem...let me go up to FC and get that for you. Just the other day on her KIX flight, someone in YC requested chocolate...the only chocolate left on board was the Godiva in FC...no prob! Oh...an ice cream sundae for the kids in the back? no prob! Let me make the sundae up from FC and come back and surprise the kids with it!

Can -everyone- in Economy Class get that nice stuff..or is this just parceled out on a "case by case" basis..sure it's nice..but you are missing the point entirely here. SIA practices this same type of thing, only it offers -everyone- a consistent level of service, there is no need to sneak anything from one class to the other on SIA because the service in the back is quite quite good. No need for this "heroism" as the overall product -takes care of itself- SIA pours glasses of bubbly up front..and in back...SIA serves Icecream up front..and in back..

"..The people that are paying -your freight-." ( talking about the "awful" YC passengers)
Yea...they are paying our freight....they're paying for my computer right now, and my internet, and I thank them dearly. They are the bread and butter of UA, and currently they are being shown that they are just as important as BC and FC pax. Take a flight on UA some day SOON....and THEN come back and tell me that UA is a horrible airline.

Sorry..but I'll pass...I will pass and stay with SIA and others that operate like it. US carriers lack understanding in delivery of a consistent high quality product. ALl that running around your mom has to go thru to please people..think about that. Think about this..If the airline would provide for a better economy clas sproduct, she wouldnt have to run all over those jets trying to make everyone happy. If there was a consistent high quality Economy class product where its focuses on the Economy class passenger, not these "special requests" and so forth..It really looks like chaos having to do all of those things, when if the product was improved, there would be less running around.

Think about that long and hard.

Regards
MAC_Veteran





Topic: Ya Know What...you Win.
Username: FLY777UAL
Posted 1999-06-09 07:59:43 and read 1274 times.

Yea...--you-- yes, --you-- MAC_Veteran WIN!!! Horray! You and this topic are not worth my time...I am done bickering over who has the better service, etc., **especially** with you. I just **WISH** that United#52 won't post ANY MORE OF THESE AGAIN!!!

FLY777UAL

Topic: MACs Got It
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 08:35:24 and read 1274 times.

MAC - you've got it again. Thats my point exactly. There shouldn't have to be any sneeky business to please just a few! A free flow of that champange i might add. If you can act sobar they'll keep on giving it to you. And, about those comments about the passengers who fly singapore airlines. Well, a lot of Australians fly singapore airlines on the kangaroo route, thta it Australia- euorpe. Now, when they have a bit to drink, well, we are probably one of the worst races for getting to drunk and carried away. but, onboard SIA, i have seen all sorts of Australian. You know, even ones that come from hicksville in the outback(normally the worst at making a sene). And let me say, i have never seen on event or even herd of one. So what does that say? Air rage is not caused by drunks, its caused by crapped of passengers who have are impatiant and loose their cool.

Now, there shouldn't need to be special service in ecomony. My point, and i believe mac's point is also that those 'little special' things your mother did for a select few at UAL, we take for granted on all flights every flight at SIA. And a lot more. United could be so much more. Yes its that attitude that really got me annoyed to. I got the same attitude from sales assistant in a furniture shop once. You know, 'well .. this was produced by blah blah blah and its much to good for you... " Basically, because i was young. I still had money in my hands and my apartment still needs furniture and not crap either. Well, its the same with passengers - they get it because they are economy ones on certain airlines. My response was to the sales assistant "you can loose the attitude- you only work in a shop you know". That holier-than-thou attitude really stinks. Its something i know i will never get at SIA. I know everything has been well thought out and carefully planned, and everything will be nice and avialible in economy. And they know they're passengers choose SIA for these reasons. So it will be. It will be.

How do you think other passengers will feel if they see some economy passengers served ice cream and none is offered to them? It makes the situation worse than if they didn't offer any to anybody. A lot of people are too modest to ask. But it doesn't mean they don't think it! And it doesn't mean they forget next time. Oh, and did i forget to mention the colonges and perfumes in the economy washrooms, all designer labels naturally. Free flowing champange(i suppose you'se don't drink yet so thats probably not much good to you - but i do and i appriate it) etc etc. Oh, the japanese would never make a special request. Its not point going out of your way to handel special request with them because they will simply keep it to themselves and be very annoyed. Its their culture - one i tend to agree with. never the less, when they get home they will say it was not good and they will avoid that carrier next time. Its a bit like going to a resturant, ordering and waiting. then after a while, asking the staff to actually cook your food. You've agreed already that you are going to eat, and they are going to supply, but, the more vocal people actually asking them to provide. The quieter people, like most, would simply instead sit around for hours waiting. Think about it.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: Redtail
Posted 1999-06-09 09:29:52 and read 1275 times.

I must say that UAL is average - in comparison with other N. American airlines however, when compared on a global stage - United, along with most US based airlines have got a lot to learn about. Sure, there will be days when you have nice flights and jolly flight attendants but there is always a flip side - there'll be days when they do not meet your expectations (even the lowest) and the attendants become sky hogs. This my friend is reality. I know because I work for a US based airline and work of one of our foreign offices which gives me the opportunity to fly other airlines weekly. UAL has got a long way to go... the important thing is , are they on the right track?.
rgds.

Topic: RE: MACs Got It-It's Called Consistency (G)
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-09 10:18:14 and read 1275 times.

Hey There Lufthansa! (G)

You understand exactly what I'm trying to say here..the problem I have with US carriers is the lack of consistency and in many aspects, -wholeness- of a product.

US companies in general look at some things as "luxuries" whereas other cultures and companies view them as "part of doing business".

Here in Asia, the "CattleCar Concept" would not work. The culture is totally different. They just dont accept -cr*p- service here, no matter what the price.
The problem US airlines way of doing this is also and aggravating example of the culture in general.

I view is it's fixation with cost.

It's taken to an -Extreme- level and in the overall view of it, that short term financial "benefit" hurts the overall quality, ergo long term profits. The company then has to remake itself again and again and again...instead of applying a consistent product and doing it right the first time and sticking with a winning concept!

The expense in revamping and remaking a US airline product is quite silly in many ways to watch..and it's -very expensive-..these fools dont understand that it's costing them -more- money to being a cheapo-skycattle car..then changing it to a modest level of service, then improving this..then going back to doing that..and so forth..

That burns up a bank-stash of money...and the idiots who do this in the US airline industry dont understand that! (LOL!)

Why not implement a classy approach that delivers an overall high quality product and use that model? That's whay SIA has been doing all along here and they've been doing it well..and making money. They can buy new jets, they hire the finest in people, they fly from one of the nicest airport facilities in the world, it's a breeze to change planes there..it's all ultra-high quality...it's a overall consistent product. You know what you are going to get on a SIA flight..the whole concept, from GroundSide..to Airside..to Inflight..to Arrival..to airside to groundside..all of it..a consistent high quality product.

Contrast this to the Chaos the US airline industry goes thru, Shuttle this..or Lite That...Metro this..or Express that...but then..in a clandestine way..making the whole airline in all real actuality a -lowfare, cattle-car-.

It's like reducing cheese on pizza..if you remove so much of it, the customer -wont- want to buy it, no matter how low the price.

Then when you realize your mistake, and attempt to correct it, It will be a long time before the customer comes back, because he knows you adopted the "cheapskate model" and now you want to curry favor again, he knows you are confused..(G)

And again..another example of not operating with a consistent level of quality and service to begin with.

The educated out there will see thru that. (G)

It's very short sighted thinking, but it's all the rage in the US I have found. In many industries as well. Not just this one.. This is just a small micro-cosym of the screwy (an in many ways, selfish) nature of US corporate thought. (G)

Some want to literally "export" that line of thinking, but I'll be one of those that vociferously picks it apart and identify it's glaring shortcomings and its lack of forward thinking as a long term business plan. It's built on a premise of undercut and cut-throat. In other cultures, that's not an acceptable way of doing business..especially in Asia. Not saying that hot-competition doesnt happen..it certainly does, but there is a totally different manner it's done..with class and dignity built in.

US Airlines need to go back to their roots of quality and service. They truly were a joy to fly on -many years ago-..I remember them.

SIA adopted a consistent level of excellence from it's founding days after its creation. It was originally a part of MSA (Malaysia Singapore Airlines) When Singapore split from Malaysia, the split up of the airline ensued and that's when SIA and Malaysian Airline System were formed. The successful operating model both employ today, were formed -then-. They have common roots and they practive their trade well. They are truly a role model for service and high quality.

In an airline environment, the culture of management and mission has to be on the same platform. You cannot expect high quality service, with an overwhelming emphasis on nothing but costs.

Of course costs are primary concerns, but if you focus only on that, the rest of the operation is going to suffer. This is a classic paradigm US companies have fallen into. It's happened in the Auto industry in the early 80s, it's happening in the Airline industry now..it's in a period of evolution. It's also happening in the airframe industry, with huge competition to Boeing from Europe's Airbus. The whole paradigm has to change.

Until the US airline industry adopts a "change of culture" in it's thinking, then the problems we discuss and glaringly point out here, will continue.

I for one will continue to be a customer of Asian based carriers.

I dont expect anything "earth shaking" in difference on US carriers at all. The one major problem is one of attitude and consistency fused together.

Asian carriers have mastered the art of service that all appreciate and deliver it in a consistent level.

The US carriers have mastered a pattern of confusion and inconsistency, along with poor attitude, and then expecting people to enjoy it or appreciate it, all..for it's "lower price". (G) Again..that "Cost argument"..the attitude is part of the US culture I view.

And not meaning to sound arrogant, but it's similar to forcing everyone to shop at Walmart or K-Mart (both very fine stores dont get me wrong)...but the attitude in the US airline biz seems to be:

"Cheap Air Fares are everything"..

Then following that it goes.."Who cares about service..I got a cheap ticket..Whatcha bitchin' about there Mister!?..I got to Paducah for $5.."

It's really a visicous cycle here though..part of It's the Airlines the other part is the mass of people that like their cheap fares. And with that..service goes out the window...so overall I believe it's a cultural problem that has manifested itself in many different areas..Supply and Demand..

What's difficult though is on International flights..seeing that same attitude and type of "product"..it really makes US carriers look like the Cheap-iest Circus flying in the air..its a bit embarassing to witness.

My clients here have told me in their words what it's like to fly on US carriers..
"a Dirty experience" or "Horrible", "Never again", "The worst I've ever seen".
On and On..I am not making this stuff up. These are words my clients have used.

Anyhow, I think the picture is quite clear here, we know where the quality is, and that's where we spend our money. (G)

Best Regards

MAC_Veteran

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: United#52
Posted 1999-06-09 15:44:35 and read 1274 times.

To redtail...

United is on track. They are ordering newer planes and replacing their seats on all of their planes. I flew on a 757 from LAX to ORD, and the seat pitch is far greater now with the new seats.

Now, to MAC_Veteran....

All of you in Asia may think that the "United is Rising" campaign is BS, but it really isn't. Their service is getting a lot better, along with their fleet, and facilities. The reason why I have never been outside North America (except for Hawaii) is because I have no reason to. I have no family, etc outside of North America. For those travels, we have always chosen United. Even when we fly long flights, my dad has miles on American, Delta, TWA, and some others, along with United, but we always choose United. They are the best airline in the airline environment that I have been exposed to, which is North America. We are planning to go to Europe next summer after I graduate from High school, and It'l either be a United 777 to London or a United 777 to Frankfurt!

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 16:38:29 and read 1274 times.

Well i go to europe at least 3 times a year for business reasons, and Frankfurt is normally my destination(well entry point into europe anyway). If not FRA, then London. I can tell you, that, if you gave me that kind of 'wonderful' product on my 22 hours in the sky, i would be pretty damn close to air rage myself. 7 hours is one thing, 22, now, thats a whole different ball game. Turst me, on long haul flights, US carriers in gerneal just have sooooo far to go its not funny. But, i suppose you'll just get on UAL to europe and never get the chance to see what it could be like with some others. If your Dad tells you its no different, he's a twit. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. Get over united. You've never had decent service in your life, so you've got no idea what the hell your talking about. I know its harsh but some people will nott accept that united isn't King of the sky worldwide.... and it looked down upon as a 'last resort' in other places. Outch...thats gotta hurt. But its the bloody truth, weather you like it or not. Sure, they are improving, but that doesn't make them 'good enough'. I rest my case. Oh, and, i welcome you to travel the 14 hour flight to my country. Maybe, you can buy a round-the-world ticket, and take UAL to Australia, then SIA to Europe and then UAL back to US. Then tell me if your opinion is still so wonderful.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: YMQ
Posted 1999-06-09 17:13:24 and read 1274 times.

Hey UA#52, how the hell on earth can you say UA is the best thing there is if you have never tried a non-US carrier? See, when i say that an awful lot of uneducated comments are posted on this forum, this is exactly what i am referring to.

Topic: The Last Post
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 18:24:36 and read 1274 times.

Its finally here, we'll at lest i think it is. The finally long awaited last post. I think i have a way that might help U#52 to understand my and others point. united#52 said he didn't like Southwest. He said it wasn't very good, and not professional 'compared' and note i stress the word compared, to the likes of United, Delta etc. He said that he would rather pay $500 for UAL or delta etc, rather than $30 for SW. Well, this is exactly how i feel, and I am sure MAC_Vet would agree with me here, about UAL's international service. Maybe that helps? I can't make it to much more simple. I am not going to bother anymore.

Topic: Its Called "Bias" (G)
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-09 18:37:35 and read 1275 times.

Hey Lufthansa

It's a simple word called "Bias" that's what it is (G).

Southwest is an excellent carrier inmy opinion. They are a low fare, niche carrier that does it's job well. They have never had a fatal accident either. Their crews are some of the finest around.

The whole thing with SW..you know what you are getting and they offer a consistent level of service. There's no BS with them..it's a low fare carrier.

UAL on the otherhand advertises itself as a fullservice carrier, but in reality it's trying to be Southwest, Pan Am, Eastern, Continental, Midway, Braniff Intl, ATA, American, Trump Shuttle...all in one (G)

It seems..totally confusing product wise. (G).

Maybe a new operation here ..."Confused: By United"? (LOL!)

The majors like UAL are in many respects, confused. Confused with their product, confused with their market. They want to be everything, to all people, -everywhere-. Low Fare, Business fare, First class fare, Everything..The problem is though..their International service is really at "last resort" level. I know that..same for NWA.

Fact is though..the overall consistency suffers.

To me..taking a $500 flight on UAL, versus a $30 flight on SW though..shows the bias..maybe it's their taste..maybe its their youth..(G) I dont know (G).

This has been a "sporting" discussion and it's getting long in it's tooth..(G) I'm sure it will be ongoing for a while yet. (G)

Take Care

MAC_Veteran

Topic: Thats True
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 18:53:09 and read 1274 times.

yes, thats a good point about south west. herb kelleher never tried to make out the southwest was the finest in the sky. He basically said a spade is a spade and thats how we operate here. Well, i've always admired his spirit anyway, even if i personally like a little bit better product. Now, if he told me that i would have to pay for headsets or something like that, i would completely understand. If a supposively 'full service' US carrier does, i say 'you've got to pay - what the bloody hell is going on in this country'. And i did say it onboard 757 in feb. After my long torture pacific flight form Syd to SFO, i wasn't all that patiant. Caused a bit of a stirr around those few rows on that 757. Really think about what the hell a beverage service is!!!! Should such a think even exist on a full service carrier - i don't think so. Thats not full service, thats cr*p service. An extra $10 spent on each passenger could go an awful long way service wise.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: United#52
Posted 1999-06-09 19:04:25 and read 1274 times.

To MAC_Veteran

Southwest's level of service? They say on TV that they don't even serve food! how do you call that service? and also, how can you compare united to braniff, eastern, panam, etc...? They don't even exist anymore! And if United is so awful, whyare they the largest airline inthe world?

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 19:15:38 and read 1274 times.

Okay, in my opinion, all US carriers Domestic service is no good. I am not arguing against united anymore than AA. So lets just have a look at their international network. Is is the largets in the free world? Do more people chose UAL long haul than any other airline? I think not.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: YMQ
Posted 1999-06-09 19:15:58 and read 1274 times.

maybe, just maybe because they operate in the largest domestic market in the world...

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United, To Lufthansa
Username: IAD
Posted 1999-06-09 19:24:10 and read 1274 times.

I am really starting to get tired of reading about how "awful" United is. At least they are making an effort to improve.

Lufthansa - I think that you are more than slightly exaggerating when you say that United gave you little more than peanuts on your long flight. I admit, United is no Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines, but them(United) a break. I don't even need to talk about my Cathay experience since you've pretty much said it for me when you talked about how good Asian and European airlines are, but my United experiences are not nearly as bad as what you've said United can be and I agree that an extra 10 dollars here and there could improve service a great deal. My point is simply this - yes United isn't perfect, but they aren't shall we say- unflyable. Speaking of unflyable---Northwest(Northworst!) can get much much worse, I assure you. If you think United is that bad, try them(Northwest), and make sure you go through Detroit- then you'll think United is a joyride and Singapore is heaven.

Topic: RE: There Is Another Side To United...
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 19:27:58 and read 1274 times.

Okay, you win united is the best blah blah blah. Im not getting any younger here. I hope UAL gives you a job one day, number 52. North America is the whole world, and everyody outside that system are green Marsions who fly in funny planes and have strange cultures. I suppose there is just one of me, and how many millions of people at united??????

Topic: IAD - I Am Not Going NW Then
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 19:44:23 and read 1276 times.

Internationally, well, yes they did feed me, and they did give me peanuts. I got a meal and a snack. Yes, they're not unflyable. If we can speak like that. But, guess what, i have already surrendered. I tend to demand a lot out of people. Most of the carriers flying into Australia are of exceptional quality. We have no northwests in this part of the world. All i can say is that its pretty said in NW is that bad. They really should then abondon the 'full service' label and call themselves a 'no frills'. Okay, i do welcome any steps in the right direction, but its too late for me now. They've lost my long haul business. maybe, i will give them domestic use inside the US, when i come to visit next. I don't think its impossible for a US long haul airline to set the benchmark. Its just, for a long time, nobody has. In its heyday, Pam Am was probably the most elite airline in the world. But i don't think it will happan. Anyway now i have surrendored to UAL. UAL backers win the arguement.

Topic: One Last Time
Username: Lufthansa
Posted 1999-06-09 20:25:40 and read 1274 times.

Okay, i quit this game. I shouldn't have even responded but at the moment am starved for metal stimulation, anything is more interesting than the book i am suppose to be reading at the moment on maths for factory processes. Look, i am sorry this has gone on for so long, and i accept responsibility completely. I fueled a fire because i had nothing better to do(that was remotely interesting anyway) and everybody is growing tired. But i don't think i am the only one who decided to stir things up here for whatever stupid reason.

I lately have had 4 hours sleep for the last week, each day and after that for a while one tends not to be always on their best behavour or most rational thought. Really, i do appolgise to United#52 also, as basically, i have preyed on your relative youth for the sole purpose of entertainment. Good luck and have a good trip to europe. Really, what my opinion or anyone elses opinion on united is really doesn't matter - at the end of the day, we are all going to go off and fly who ever for what ever reason. We all have different expectations, and priorities.

Topic: PanAm
Username: LanFan
Posted 1999-06-09 21:33:19 and read 1276 times.

Correct me if I'm wrong (please by all means...I only wnat to gain knowledge.)

I MISS PANAM!!!

I MISS EASTERN!!!

Why were these beautiful, and gracious airlines left to rot and mediocre to hellish airlines like American and United left !!! (please..if you are infactuated with this airline dont waste forum space to glorify the airlines mentioned above...THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!)

Topic: Speaking Of PAN AM................................
Username: NYC Int'l
Posted 1999-06-09 21:39:42 and read 1276 times.

I think we should take 'God Save The Queen' and put PAN AM the places where it says Queen. If the queen should have her song so should PAN AM, after all They are more popular, at least in Australia anyway....he...he...he.

Lance

Topic: To UA#52-"Try" To Understand What I'm Saying
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-10 10:14:26 and read 1274 times.

TO United#52

Dont you understand what I'm attempting to get across to you?

With Southwest, they advertise they are a low fare carrier. They are -up front- about what you get and what you dont get on their carrier. In otherwords, truth in advertising. Get it?

With United, you get an amagamation of everything thats confused into a tight little ball of you know what in the "service" department and no one really knows what to expect.

You get Lowfares, lowfare service, on an airline that advertises it'self as a "full service carrier"! That's what I'm getting at.

In other words, Product consistency.

Defining United Airlines in the realms of those carriers I mentioned defininely fits the picture. One of confusion.

You have UAL which offers a multitude of services, be in low fare, or full fare..but overall it's no more than a low fare carrier with some upgraded version of coach to pass off as Biz Class..and a First class product that is more of a warmed over Biz class.

In otherwords..a very warmed over, lame product in my view. There is no consistency with it at all. And I hate saying this..but it's the truth and It's the truth about most (if not all) US carriers that posess an International route network.

United inmany ways attempts to offer service like Southwest, with it's low fares (and it's Low faqre operation United Shuttle), attempt to buil;d a worldwide network like the former Pan Am and Braniff International, establish a large east coast presence like Eastern, yet offer cabin comfort more along the lines of a charter carrier!! Like ATA! It truly in my view is an amagalmation of prodcut psyche's that I believe is confusing and inconsistent.

When one boards an airline, I believe one should have a consistent level of service, meaning the quality should be the same where ever you go or at least in the same "neighborhood" of standards. I have seen posts here (maybe by you even! (G) admitting that International is "better" than domestic...There again..an admission that something is skewed somewhere..

The product is skewed..that's why. Study it and analyze it closely..and yes I venture to ask you to try out service on competitiors to get an idea of how -they- do business. And yes..that means SIA, or JAL, or ANA..or whoever.

Try it..you'll then understand completely what it's all about. This rattling off of pablum saying "United is the best" in all actuality destroys the argument you offer...You need to look at this objectively. I've flown on UAL..they are an ordinary, -uninspiring- product in my view. Nothing original in it..I like originality and consistency and yes comfort in a product..one that has value to it. And Value doesnt always mean the lowest price.. Americans are quite good at thinking value automatically means low price. Not at all.

Southwest offers good value for it's low fare service, Why, because they offer a consistent product. They stick to the model that works for them and they have been profitable ever since! The same for SIA..

United however is one of those companies that has built this "empire" and expects everyone to "love it". Not at all. There's no paternalism in an airline "empire", nor love of one, especially if it's mediocre at best in service. That's what I've been trying to get across to you, spoken from an -almost -million-mile-traveller (from Icy North to the sandy Palm tree lined beaches of Micronesia, to the craggy mountains of Eastern Turkey (G) and one who -also- worked in the Air Transportation career field for over 7 1/2 years, Gulf War veteran to boot! (G)

In other words..I know what I'm talking about here..(G)

I look at the success or failure of airline companies, many of those previously mentioned did exactly the same thing UAL is doing now...in some regards, not all. The things that killed some of those companies was the customer service aspect that became a nightmare with some.

Bookwise..I suggest the following.

I suggest a -long- read of John J. Nance's book "Splash of Colors: The Self Destructionof Braniff International" as a great book to read and learn about how -not- to manage a company..it's one of the saddest tales ever how a great brandname was destroyed by bungled management and outside factors.

Also suggest some older books by Robert Serling, "Maverick" which is copyrighted 1974. That's the story of Robert F. Six and Continental Airlines.
Mr Six was never content with passe' or "ordinary"..he wanted to exceed standards and make travel an enjoyable experience. His wife, Audrey Meadows, (Alice from "The Honeymooners") was the one who inspired and helped design the interiors on CO's 747's and DC-10s..complete with Flying Pubs and Piano bars..I remember their "GoldenPub" DC-10s and they were nice!)

"From the Captain to the Colonel" The story of Eastern Airlines. A very long book that details how Eddie Rickenbacker started his carrier..how it grew...and yes he was a -tough- boss to work for...(G)

"Delta: The History of an Airline" Another excellent book..and one that shows how management can truly care about it's passengers.. C.E. Woolman was famous for his attention to customer's satisfaction..that's what made Delta so famous years ago..

You need to read books like these to understand the airline industry's history and then try to apply some of the lessons from each. Then you'll understand why people are so tired of the way quality is today..the attitude, the mediocrity.
Then...I sincerely hope and believe you will come away with an understanding of why people despise the service levels on the US major carriers of today and wish there was a return to the "roots" that built these carriers.

Regards

MAC_Veteran


Topic: RE: To UA#52-"Try" To Understand What I'm Saying
Username: Redtail
Posted 1999-06-10 15:16:09 and read 1274 times.

I must side with MAC_Veteran on this one... however long-winded the notes may be, he is correct - in my opinion. I must also add that MAC_Veteran has mentoined profits at SIA: what you failed to mention is the governments involvment in the finances of this company ( a lot of $$$ tossing I would assume ) but, it's a great airline and most of all it is consistant in what it delivers, I too enjoy flying SIA/CX/ANA etc. but Continental has also come a long way - a positive turn around... project not completed but certainly potential exists. CO continue to snatch awards and recognition - I'm not putting them up neck-to-neck with SIA but I can sure as heck put them ahead of UAL. United#52, please be open minded - we have a saying in Japanese that you should know...... " the base of the lighthouse is always the darkest "

Topic: RE: To UA#52-"Try" To Understand What I'm Saying
Username: MAC_Veteran
Posted 1999-06-10 17:25:30 and read 1274 times.

Hey there RedTail

Firstly..Ohayo! from Taiwan (G)

Thanks for your comments...I try to build as BIG a case for some facts in this type of explanation of the "who and the why".

Some of it's quite lengthy (and a chore I must say..my typing fingers got a workout over the past few days (G) to get out so folks can get a perspective that comes from a -lot- of "hands on experience" and a -lot- of study that was crammed thru my head during my Air Force years. (G)

Sorry if it was lengthy..(G)

I am sure there -may- be some little "finagling" with a state owned company in terms of support and so forth, but I do think that SIA stands pretty much on it's own. Last year was a real headache for the carrier. I would like to see how much of SIA is state owned and what, if any, part of it is privatised. I really dont want to go down the road of state supported industries versus private ones debate because it's in many aspects a dead-end type of thing to get talking about. (G)

That being said, the product is simply superb. (G)

I will say this about what appears to be your carrier, the RedTailed one (G)

Flying Within Asia is a -better- experience than from Japan to the States, or the States to Japan. The Quality level of service I notice to be good. In most if not all aspects, the Tokyo based flight attendants truly make the very best of the product they have to present and they do it pretty well.

My biggest problems with NWA though begin when one connects at NRT for the Stateside leg home. That's when it becomes a nightmare in some regards (G).
And here again, my argument about consistency. (G)

If the NWA passengers could have the same level of service that is given from their Tokyo based crews, there would be a lot more happy faces. I sincerely feel that way. The people seemed happier, and focused much better. The attitude..very different. I watched everything enroute both ways and it was like a case study of an airline, then the same airline with different culture aboard..doing same job..but the difference was the attitude..incredible difference.

NWA is like a different airline operating in Asia, versus the NWA that boards at NRT for the trip to the USA. That part I found to be in many regards difficult to understand and quite glaring. I wonder if you 've heard this story before (LOL!)

Best Regards from Taiwan

MAC_Veteran

Topic: I Totally Agree.
Username: N771UA
Posted 1999-06-11 03:57:57 and read 1274 times.

United Airlines is simply the best. I was on a flight from Hong Kong to Chicago, the longest and most tiring flight there can possibly be. It was nighttime, ten hours into the flight, and the flight attendants were serving dinner. This is a very tedious task on a Boeing 747-400. I was sitting three rows from the back and when the flight attendants finally came our way I expected them to be mad and pushy as I had experienced on a Singapore Airlines flight that same week, but the United flight attendants were still bright-eyed and bushy tailed. They were so nice they even brought me another pack of M&M's even when I politely refused. It's the little things like that that really seperate the quality airlines between the mediocre.

-N771UA

--Remember - United Airlines Boeing 777-200 (N771UA) all the way!

Topic: It's Just Business
Username: Hmmmm...
Posted 1999-06-11 05:08:37 and read 1274 times.

I haven't read every post in this thread so I don't know if someone has already said this, so I'll bring it up myself. Economies of Scale. That is why comparing SIA to United on service is really apples to oranges. Carriers like Singapore International Airlines are mostly wide-body, long-range, inter-continental, and thus, big-fare ticket airlines. That is what they specialize in. When you are hauling 400 people across the ocean, especially the Pacific, that gives you the wiggle room for lots of extras and, as already mentioned, SIA capitalizes on that nicely. United is another story, however. Unfortunately for them, that is not what they specialize in. In contrast, United is mostly a narrow-body, short-medium range, domestic airline. That means that they don't mine the same gold nugget that an airline like SIA will mine on a typical flight. So they have a problem. They can't offer SIA service standards on their long-range flights because that would mean that a United passenger traveling on a domestic hop from Denver to Pocatello, Idaho would receive a technically inferior service to another United passenger traveling on the same airline, only a longer, intercontinental flight. That would be highly problematic for an airline to justify considering that both of those United passengers would be flying coach, on the same day, in the same airline, served by the same cabin staff, working in the same union. What I'm getting at here is the economic term known as Economies of Scale. This is the theorem that dictates that the larger the numerical output for any production run, whether it be widgets or passengers on a flight from A-B, the smaller the unit cost. This, in essence, means that SIA can afford to do what they do, on their flights, but United would bleed to death if they tried to do the same thing on all of their flights, most of which are small, short hops around the country.
United would love to pamper you like SIA does but they have too many planes, too many little hops, and too many low-fare coach passengers to do so. So take heart. As the Mob likes to say before they kill you:
"It's nothing personal. It's just business."


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